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Killer Thriller: She Was Convicted of Murdering Her Husband. But Who Cut Up His Body? · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,
0:10
Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan.
0:16
Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller.
0:20
Speaker 1: In 2004, Bill McGuire, a New Jersey father of two,
0:25
Speaker 1: suddenly disappears. And days later, his dismembered body is found
0:30
Speaker 1: in three suitcases along the Virginia coast. His wife, Melanie McGuire,
0:35
Speaker 1: was eventually convicted of his murder. But more than 20
0:39
Speaker 1: years later, Melanie still insists she's innocent. My guest today
0:44
Speaker 1: is Michael Rourke, who plays Bill in Suitcase Killer, The
0:48
Speaker 1: Melanie McGuire Story. Michael is also an attorney who has
0:52
Speaker 1: questioned the evidence against Melanie. Today, we are digging into
0:56
Speaker 1: the bizarre clues, the unanswered questions, and the making of
1:00
Speaker 1: this movie.
1:01
Speaker 2: Hi, Michael.
1:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking
1:05
Speaker 1: with me today.
1:05
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
1:09
Speaker 1: So this case is, I mean, listen, we talk about
1:13
Speaker 1: a lot of extreme things on this podcast that are
1:15
Speaker 1: difficult to metabolize, to talk about, but this is, it's
1:21
Speaker 1: just simply wild and unbelievable and grisly, and it still doesn't.
1:25
Speaker 2: Make any sense to me.
1:27
Speaker 1: So when When you first learned about this case, what
1:31
Speaker 1: shocked you the most? And did you initially assume that
1:35
Speaker 1: the character you're playing, that his wife was guilty?
1:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I try to come in
1:42
Speaker 3: with no assumptions. And, you know, when I'm playing a character,
1:45
Speaker 3: obviously I'm playing the strength of my character, right? So
1:48
Speaker 3: looking at the story, it does not serve my jobs
1:51
Speaker 3: to come and tell the story. So whether she's guilty, whether,
1:55
Speaker 3: you know, he's guilty, I tried putting that out of
1:57
Speaker 3: my mind. But of course, We had so much banter
2:00
Speaker 3: on set because it's such like an intoxicating case. And like,
2:04
Speaker 3: this was also what early 2000s. So like any evidence
2:09
Speaker 3: was not what it was, you know, maybe there would
2:11
Speaker 3: be a little bit more light if we had more
2:13
Speaker 3: of that, if this crime would have happened today. But
2:17
Speaker 3: looking at it, when I looked at all the evidence
2:19
Speaker 3: on its surface, I mean, if you want me just
2:23
Speaker 3: to jump right into it.
2:25
Speaker 2: Sure.
2:26
Speaker 3: I didn't find, in my opinion, And again, I'm only
2:30
Speaker 3: going off the facts and evidence that we were provided. Right.
2:33
Speaker 3: There was no smoking gun. That was the biggest thing
2:35
Speaker 3: in this case. There was no smoking gun, but there
2:37
Speaker 3: was a lot of circumstantial evidence, which did not make
2:41
Speaker 3: any sense. And as far as Bill goes, I know
2:49
Speaker 3: there was a party line and the defense saying that
2:52
Speaker 3: he was involved with the mob. Mm-hmm. he was a gambler.
2:55
Speaker 3: There wasn't really a whole lot of evidence to suggest
2:58
Speaker 3: he was anything more than a casual gambler who lived
3:01
Speaker 3: near Atlantic city and went to blow off steam every
3:03
Speaker 3: now and then. Right. Wow. And so when I looked
3:06
Speaker 3: at bill, when I kind of looked in his backstory,
3:08
Speaker 3: this was a guy who he was still very much
3:11
Speaker 3: connected to the Navy, still had the Navy cut, still
3:14
Speaker 3: hung out with the Navy guys. He missed that edge.
3:17
Speaker 2: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
3:19
Speaker 3: And I feel that's kind of the way that was
3:20
Speaker 3: my impression of him. He kind of missed that edge.
3:22
Speaker 3: So like the gambling and, whether or not he was womanized.
3:26
Speaker 3: And I think there was evidence to that. I can't
3:27
Speaker 3: really quite recall. I think part of that was him
3:31
Speaker 3: trying to find that edge. He was feeling trapped. I
3:34
Speaker 3: think in the beginning, he really did love Melanie. He
3:37
Speaker 3: really wanted, like he loved his family. He wanted to
3:38
Speaker 3: make this work. But as a fact suggests, like he
3:44
Speaker 3: never wanted this house. He didn't want, like he felt
3:47
Speaker 3: trapped by the house. He wanted to go to Virginian Beach.
3:50
Speaker 3: Like he wanted a different life that she was not
3:52
Speaker 3: really on board for. And I, you know, not as
3:55
Speaker 3: an excuse, obviously, but I think there was a lot
3:58
Speaker 3: of narrative thrown around about Bill being this guy who
4:03
Speaker 3: really was probably just a dude who was overly stressed
4:07
Speaker 3: in a tough spot in his marriage. Was he womanizing?
4:10
Speaker 3: I don't know. Was he gambling? Yeah, probably. But was
4:13
Speaker 3: he gambling away the house? I don't know. Like, that's
4:16
Speaker 3: a part of the story where we kind of take
4:18
Speaker 3: some liberties, right? We follow a narrative and that's kind of,
4:22
Speaker 3: you know, how we tell the story. Yeah.
4:24
Speaker 2: I mean, there are all of these questions.
4:26
Speaker 1: This is one of the things that I think is
4:27
Speaker 1: interesting about the movie because after I watched it, then
4:32
Speaker 1: I went and read and watched everything I could about
4:35
Speaker 1: this woman and this case. And I was like, Whoa,
4:37
Speaker 1: what is it? I, I, it really is mind boggling
4:44
Speaker 1: because it doesn't to me make any sense. Was there
4:47
Speaker 1: any evidence or any sort of whatever that I know
4:50
Speaker 1: you also, we should say you are a licensed attorney
4:53
Speaker 1: and you, so you actually come at this with another
4:56
Speaker 1: set of eyes.
4:57
Speaker 3: Candace loved that. I mean, Candace had a lot of
4:59
Speaker 3: fun with that. Cause obviously Candace, you know, I mean,
5:02
Speaker 3: not obviously, but she was of the impression that like,
5:04
Speaker 3: you know, Melanie had a pretty good story and I was,
5:09
Speaker 3: I'm more in the middle. So like, What I think is,
5:14
Speaker 3: am I 100% sure that she's guilty? I'm not because
5:17
Speaker 3: there's too much facts go both ways. But what I've
5:20
Speaker 3: said is, at the very least, she knows something she's
5:23
Speaker 3: not saying. Now, did she hire somebody? Did she know
5:27
Speaker 3: something was going to happen? She knows something she's not saying.
5:30
Speaker 3: She is not innocent. And where I feel like the
5:32
Speaker 3: defense went wrong was they tried to paint her as
5:35
Speaker 3: this delicate flower. She's completely innocent.
5:38
Speaker 2: Right.
5:39
Speaker 3: You know, like, oh, this big, bad Bill McGuire was
5:42
Speaker 3: a gambling, womanizing, abusive dude. And like, you would have
5:45
Speaker 3: been better off just saying, I didn't love that guy anymore,
5:48
Speaker 3: but I didn't kill him. Right. I think that would
5:50
Speaker 3: have been a better defense because there's too much circumstantial evidence.
5:55
Speaker 3: I had to look it up because, you know, it's
5:56
Speaker 3: been a few years since we filmed this, but like,
5:58
Speaker 3: internet searching for murder. I mean, you can almost look
6:01
Speaker 3: past that because people get curious.
6:03
Speaker 1: I mean, do they though?
6:05
Speaker 2: Like, have you ever done that?
6:06
Speaker 3: Like walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.
6:08
Speaker 1: I get really mad at my husband sometimes. Let me
6:10
Speaker 1: tell you, we do not have a perfect marriage, but
6:13
Speaker 1: I have never in my life Googled something, even in
6:17
Speaker 1: the vicinity of how to poison him or murder him.
6:21
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I went to law school, so I did,
6:23
Speaker 3: I did. So I, but yeah, Yeah. I mean, I'm
6:29
Speaker 3: trying to remember all that, but like there, she bought
6:31
Speaker 3: a gun. There's an internet searching. The really strange prank
6:35
Speaker 3: she did where she drove an hour and a half
6:37
Speaker 3: to Atlantic city. Right. Like that to me was calculated.
6:42
Speaker 3: She was trying to plant him in Atlantic city. That's like,
6:45
Speaker 3: that's a, first of all, it's a stupid prank. It's dumb.
6:49
Speaker 3: Can you go three and a half hours round trip
6:50
Speaker 3: to move a car? 15 minutes.
6:51
Speaker 2: Like it doesn't make any sense.
6:53
Speaker 3: That's the thing. It just doesn't make any sense. It's like,
6:56
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, if you just strip
6:59
Speaker 3: away all of the grisly details of the murder, this
7:03
Speaker 3: is a woman who was acting completely irrationally. And it
7:07
Speaker 3: didn't make sense unless you're effing up to something. And
7:11
Speaker 3: that's just, that's where I land with it. But yeah,
7:15
Speaker 3: it's very, it's very fascinating because like, dude ends up
7:19
Speaker 3: in a suitcase. Right.
7:21
Speaker 2: Well, this is this, what you just said would explain it.
7:25
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me because, you know, no matter
7:28
Speaker 1: where you fall on all of this, I couldn't get
7:30
Speaker 1: past how does this woman, literally how does she do
7:34
Speaker 1: it on her own and then leave not a trace
7:39
Speaker 1: of blood or anything in her own home? And how
7:42
Speaker 1: does this one person, like he was a big guy.
7:45
Speaker 1: How could she dismember him and put him like, she
7:48
Speaker 1: couldn't do it by herself.
7:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I feel like she may have had
7:51
Speaker 3: some help or something. I mean, at the end of
7:54
Speaker 3: the day, she was what she was a nurse. So
7:56
Speaker 3: like she did have some skills with this. I don't
7:59
Speaker 3: know to what extent, but she wasn't completely in the
8:03
Speaker 3: dark with how to do something like this. Now the
8:06
Speaker 3: whole putting them in the suitcase, I just don't feel
8:11
Speaker 3: like the, look, I don't know much about the mob.
8:13
Speaker 3: The mob doesn't do like that. That's just, you know
8:16
Speaker 3: what I mean? They just don't.
8:17
Speaker 1: It's like she literally was watching the Sopranos and then said,
8:20
Speaker 1: this is a great idea.
8:21
Speaker 3: You don't see bodies anymore when the mob's involved. They
8:24
Speaker 3: don't show up in a suitcase floating in a river.
8:26
Speaker 3: I'm like, these are professionals.
8:30
Speaker 1: And then her saying that the particular brand of suitcase,
8:33
Speaker 1: was it Kenneth Cole or something that she was like, oh,
8:37
Speaker 1: I don't know what that is.
8:38
Speaker 2: Oh, we do have those.
8:40
Speaker 1: But she sort of gave them the name of the
8:43
Speaker 1: suitcase and then the plastic bags being the same that
8:48
Speaker 1: she had purchased. And sure, okay, a lot of people
8:51
Speaker 1: have garbage bags, but then they tracked that it was
8:55
Speaker 1: like in close succession of when that bag was made
8:58
Speaker 1: to when the bags with the bodies, it's crazy. But
9:02
Speaker 1: if somebody out this idea now, I'm like, I think
9:05
Speaker 1: you have it because it's also.
9:08
Speaker 2: Hard to get past.
9:10
Speaker 1: If there was nothing in this woman's history that showed
9:14
Speaker 1: her to be wildly violent and irrational and, you know,
9:19
Speaker 1: which I don't think there was anything that showed that.
9:22
Speaker 1: So you could make the quicker jump that she just
9:26
Speaker 1: wanted to get out of that marriage and she wanted
9:29
Speaker 1: to do something else and then sort of hire someone
9:31
Speaker 1: else to make it go away. Like that's an easier thing,
9:35
Speaker 1: I think, emotionally to understand.
9:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree with that. And I think the
9:40
Speaker 3: one thing that people have a hard time with is
9:42
Speaker 3: understanding how a mother, a nurse, Could just jump to
9:47
Speaker 3: something like this awful and grisly. But like what I
9:51
Speaker 3: try to remind people is like, that's a human condition.
9:53
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? One thing I've learned and
9:56
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've learned is like we are all. like,
10:00
Speaker 3: everyone's like, I would never kill anyone. Really? Let someone
10:04
Speaker 3: torture you in a basement for 30 days, starve you,
10:07
Speaker 3: do all kinds of terrible things. You see what you're
10:09
Speaker 3: capable of. Yes. You know what I mean? Like there's, yes,
10:13
Speaker 3: people can snap. People can change. was she madly in love?
10:17
Speaker 3: Did she hate this man? I mean, these are the
10:19
Speaker 3: things we don't know. And these are the things that like, again,
10:22
Speaker 3: it'd be in 2004, there was limited evidence. And I
10:24
Speaker 3: think that's what makes it such a fascinating story is
10:28
Speaker 3: there's so much we didn't know, but like, holy cow,
10:32
Speaker 3: the amount of circumstantial evidence, usually you get a little
10:34
Speaker 3: bit of circumstantial, right? Right. I mean, this was almost
10:38
Speaker 3: predominantly circumstantial with no smoking gun. But like I said,
10:42
Speaker 3: I feel like if this happened today, there would be
10:44
Speaker 3: a smoking gun. I think this was limited by the evidence,
10:47
Speaker 3: evidentiary materials that were available at the time.
10:50
Speaker 1: Right.
10:51
Speaker 3: Right.
10:51
Speaker 1: It really does that, that this, what you were just
10:54
Speaker 1: saying about the human condition. And that's what I think
10:59
Speaker 1: most people are really, it's what I'm interested in, in
11:02
Speaker 1: talking about these sorts of things, because to your point,
11:06
Speaker 1: these are human beings that do these things. And sometimes
11:10
Speaker 1: there's something extreme. Someone's got, you know, some sort of
11:13
Speaker 1: brain damage and does something. Sure.
11:15
Speaker 2: There are some kind.
11:17
Speaker 1: Of outliers like that, but really these things are, you know,
11:21
Speaker 1: there are serial killers that have this exact, almost identical
11:25
Speaker 1: background to another person. And that's this other person doesn't
11:29
Speaker 1: commit these sorts of crimes. So it's like, there's, there's
11:33
Speaker 1: a nuance or a, you know, I don't know what
11:36
Speaker 1: it is, but I am to your point, like people
11:39
Speaker 1: can get pushed. And then what you can rationalize as okay,
11:44
Speaker 1: like your moral barometer can shift, I think.
11:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's part of it, too, is
11:50
Speaker 3: like you start in this one place, but it's almost
11:52
Speaker 3: like that frog in the pot as you still turn
11:54
Speaker 3: the water up, right? Over time, you start being like, well,
11:57
Speaker 3: he deserves this. He's a bad guy. I'm doing the
12:00
Speaker 3: world a favor. Like all these things, you start compromising
12:04
Speaker 3: all the things that make you human, right? Yep. But
12:08
Speaker 3: that's the part that, I mean, it's hard for me
12:10
Speaker 3: to wrap my head around. Because if it's me, I'm like, dude,
12:14
Speaker 3: just get a divorce and move on.
12:16
Speaker 2: I ask this question often. Do we have to get
12:19
Speaker 2: this far?
12:20
Speaker 1: At what point did divorce become more difficult than taking
12:26
Speaker 1: someone's life?
12:27
Speaker 3: What is the problem?
12:28
Speaker 2: I totally agree.
12:30
Speaker 3: It's going to suck for a few months. Go file
12:32
Speaker 3: some papers. But you're not going to live the rest
12:34
Speaker 3: of your life in jail. And your kids aren't going
12:36
Speaker 3: to not have any parents. Right.
12:38
Speaker 2: That's the other part.
12:39
Speaker 1: I think that's really hard for, for moms, for women,
12:43
Speaker 1: for anybody, but particularly as a mother to think, how
12:47
Speaker 1: does this woman do this with these small children and
12:52
Speaker 1: not consider what their lives will be?
12:55
Speaker 3: What do you think she does? Like, I mean, it's,
12:59
Speaker 3: it's hard for me to even, it's hard for me
13:01
Speaker 3: to even kind of grasp what that might be, but
13:03
Speaker 3: that's kind of what made it so interesting on set again.
13:06
Speaker 3: Like we, we would, We would have it out, you know. And,
13:11
Speaker 3: you know, Candace is a lot of fun to work with.
13:13
Speaker 3: The whole cast is a lot of fun. But it was, yeah,
13:15
Speaker 3: it was a very fascinating case to kind of dig into.
13:18
Speaker 3: And then, you know, it was great to see that
13:20
Speaker 3: it had a really good response on Netflix because it
13:22
Speaker 3: did well on Lifetime and then it had this new life.
13:24
Speaker 2: It has a new life, right. I love that.
13:27
Speaker 3: What do you think it is about true crime that
13:28
Speaker 3: just really attracts people?
13:31
Speaker 1: I mean, this is our question that we're always asking.
13:33
Speaker 1: And I do feel like it's partly... This human condition
13:39
Speaker 1: thing of how do people, how do we do these things?
13:45
Speaker 1: How does a person get from A to Z?
13:48
Speaker 3: To your point, I think deep down, we're all like,
13:52
Speaker 3: could I do that?
13:54
Speaker 2: Yes.
13:54
Speaker 3: Yeah.
13:56
Speaker 1: And I think on the other side of it is,
13:59
Speaker 1: thank God that's not happening to me. Right.
14:02
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there's a sense of like, oh, I thought
14:04
Speaker 3: my life was in the shit. It's actually not too bad.
14:06
Speaker 1: Right.
14:06
Speaker 2: Like, I'm okay today. You know, I'm making it through today.
14:11
Speaker 1: And so one of the strangest details is Melanie's account
14:17
Speaker 1: of their final argument. And she said that it began
14:20
Speaker 1: over a dryer sheet that Bill hated finding in the laundry,
14:24
Speaker 1: that he thought it was lazy, that she should use
14:27
Speaker 1: the liquid, the kids could.
14:28
Speaker 2: Choke on it.
14:28
Speaker 1: And According to Melanie, he shoved it into her mouth,
14:33
Speaker 1: slapped her, and threatened to take their children away. What
14:36
Speaker 1: did you make of that story?
14:39
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a one-sided story. There is no... It's
14:42
Speaker 3: just someone running to the teacher and saying, you know,
14:45
Speaker 3: they stole my homework. There's no other side to it.
14:48
Speaker 3: So Bill wasn't there to defend himself. The kids obviously
14:52
Speaker 3: weren't there to defend themselves. So my job was to
14:55
Speaker 3: play the truth of the story. So... I did as
14:59
Speaker 3: best I could. And, you know, I'm going to defend
15:03
Speaker 3: Bill because I think he was innocent. He did not deserve,
15:05
Speaker 3: obviously did not deserve what happened to him. But there
15:09
Speaker 3: are some facts that suggest maybe he was a volatile
15:12
Speaker 3: dude like there. That's in the record as well. So
15:16
Speaker 3: I try to I try to honor that as well.
15:18
Speaker 3: And like, I mean, that to fight over dryer sheets, obviously,
15:23
Speaker 3: there's more going on underneath me.
15:25
Speaker 1: Right right it's not about the dryer sheets as yeah
15:29
Speaker 1: like many things that was tough.
15:32
Speaker 3: To film too because like candace is so lovely and
15:35
Speaker 3: i'm stuffing it.
15:35
Speaker 1: Right i was wondering that because it was hard to
15:39
Speaker 1: watch because imagining that it's like uh how did you
15:44
Speaker 1: guys do that because just the thought of the dryer
15:48
Speaker 1: sheet of the the soaping it, this, it just, all.
15:51
Speaker 3: Of it is. Yeah. I mean, I tried to basically,
15:54
Speaker 3: if I can remember correctly, you know, it's like a dance.
15:56
Speaker 3: It's like a fight scene. Yeah. I'm really trying to
15:58
Speaker 3: hide the dryer sheet and almost like knuckle it more. Yeah.
16:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
16:02
Speaker 3: The harder part is just how sadistic it was. I'll
16:06
Speaker 3: like Bill. I played it. Like Bill is actually enjoying it.
16:08
Speaker 3: Like he was sick.
16:09
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know.
16:11
Speaker 3: I think that's more interesting than just getting loud and screaming.
16:14
Speaker 3: I just think it's interesting. Like someone who's like sadistic,
16:16
Speaker 3: like same thing when he came back with the car keys.
16:20
Speaker 3: I just find it interesting. It's like, wait, what is
16:23
Speaker 3: this dude actually capable of? I don't like the beating
16:27
Speaker 3: of the chest to me. Yeah. That can be interesting,
16:29
Speaker 3: but it's not as interesting. What's interesting to me is like,
16:32
Speaker 3: if she doesn't kill him, he kill her.
16:35
Speaker 1: Well, right. This is what is interesting about the movie
16:37
Speaker 1: is that it really doesn't make any kind of strong-armed
16:44
Speaker 1: decisions for us as an audience.
16:47
Speaker 2: It really does say it could be this or it
16:49
Speaker 2: could be this.
16:50
Speaker 1: And those dynamics of where the relationship is volatile, many
16:57
Speaker 1: of us have been in those. And so- that never
17:00
Speaker 1: doesn't go to this degree, but just kind of that dynamic. If,
17:04
Speaker 1: if it does expand and get worse and continue. And
17:08
Speaker 1: I mean, I, you can start to understand, Oh, this
17:12
Speaker 1: is how these people got to this place.
17:15
Speaker 3: Right. If, if, if, if the fights were getting that
17:19
Speaker 3: bad and she's just like, he's going to kill me,
17:21
Speaker 3: I better do something.
17:23
Speaker 2: Right.
17:24
Speaker 3: I guess that's, one way to kind of approach it.
17:27
Speaker 1: But then she, so Melanie said that bill packed is
17:30
Speaker 1: after this, this fight that bill packed his belongings and
17:34
Speaker 1: left after this argument, but she didn't immediately report him missing.
17:39
Speaker 1: And then bill's sister questioned that from your perspective is
17:43
Speaker 1: her behavior after the disappearance.
17:45
Speaker 2: One of the most suspicious aspects.
17:47
Speaker 3: Of the case. Absolutely. Like the husband, I can get like,
17:51
Speaker 3: you're upset for a little bit. If there's a big fight,
17:55
Speaker 3: but you're not reporting it at all. And like nothing,
18:00
Speaker 3: like nothing she did seem like someone, A, who really
18:04
Speaker 3: cared about this guy. And then B, like it just,
18:09
Speaker 3: like I said, the word is irrational. It just doesn't
18:11
Speaker 3: make any sense from the standpoint of like, is this
18:14
Speaker 3: person hurt? Like, is everything okay? Is he in trouble
18:18
Speaker 3: with the mob? If she actually believed he was in
18:20
Speaker 3: trouble with the mob, don't you think you'd be like, wait,
18:22
Speaker 3: where's Bill? Right. Right. You weren't following up on any
18:27
Speaker 3: of this, but you were searching how to kill people
18:29
Speaker 3: and you were buying a gun. You know, I'm not
18:32
Speaker 3: supposed to believe you had nothing to do with this. Right. Right.
18:35
Speaker 2: I did find her so interesting.
18:37
Speaker 1: You know, obviously, none of us know how we would
18:40
Speaker 1: behave in these situations. And it's easy for me to say, oh,
18:45
Speaker 1: she seems so nonchalant about everything.
18:47
Speaker 2: But she kind of did.
18:49
Speaker 1: And felt like i didn't you know like well i
18:52
Speaker 1: didn't i didn't do this and maybe someone else did
18:56
Speaker 1: you're like where's the urgency.
18:57
Speaker 3: That's what i mean about the human condition like did
19:00
Speaker 3: the lights just go out with her right right because
19:03
Speaker 3: like i mean i saw what little court footage i
19:05
Speaker 3: could see because it was limited but like it just
19:08
Speaker 3: seemed like she was checked out and almost like she's
19:11
Speaker 3: like oh i'm gonna get out of this like what
19:12
Speaker 3: makes you think you're gonna get out of this.
19:15
Speaker 2: Right.
19:16
Speaker 1: Who's giving you that information?
19:18
Speaker 3: Yeah. Like you are not in a good spot right now. And,
19:23
Speaker 3: you know, I do think they got the verdict right.
19:25
Speaker 3: Like I said, like she knows something she's not saying.
19:28
Speaker 3: I mean, the only other one thing I learned, what
19:33
Speaker 3: I have learned, you know, when I in my I
19:36
Speaker 3: don't do I pretty criminal defense in my career. I
19:38
Speaker 3: don't really do it that much. But when I did
19:40
Speaker 3: do it is like the ultimate way to get away
19:42
Speaker 3: with a crime is have a fall guy. That's really
19:45
Speaker 3: the only way to actually truly get away with something.
19:48
Speaker 2: Because it creates reasonable doubt?
19:50
Speaker 3: Because it takes it off of you. Yeah. I mean,
19:52
Speaker 3: cause you know, it has to be beyond reasonable doubt,
19:54
Speaker 3: but like to truly get it, to truly get away
19:58
Speaker 3: with a crime, you pin it on someone else. Cause
20:01
Speaker 3: then case closed. Right. And then the lens moves away
20:05
Speaker 3: from you. That's why it was very convenient to use
20:08
Speaker 3: this mobster technique. because like you can't prove anything right
20:14
Speaker 3: oh he got in with the mob he was gambling
20:16
Speaker 3: in Atlantic City he ended up in suitcases he just
20:18
Speaker 3: named maybe 20,000 guys in any given night right right
20:22
Speaker 3: I mean like there's all kinds of dudes who can
20:24
Speaker 3: get in with bookies and mob people but they don't
20:27
Speaker 3: end up dead like you know maybe they get their
20:30
Speaker 3: kneecaps you know right but like they'll get chopped up
20:34
Speaker 3: and put in a suitcase the mob wants their money right.
20:37
Speaker 2: That's not going to get them what they're looking for.
20:53
Speaker 1: The gun that Melanie purchased was never recovered and prosecutors
20:58
Speaker 1: connected the purchase to the 38 caliber bullets.
21:02
Speaker 2: Found in Bill's body.
21:03
Speaker 1: Yet another small detail, uh, but they couldn't produce the
21:07
Speaker 1: actual weapon as an attorney.
21:08
Speaker 2: How significant is that missing piece of evidence?
21:12
Speaker 3: I mean, it's tough. It's tough because again, you have
21:15
Speaker 3: to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So when you're talking
21:17
Speaker 3: about civil cases, it's, um, Oh, the terms escape me,
21:23
Speaker 3: but it's basically 51%, right? At least 51% guilt. But
21:30
Speaker 3: when you're talking about beyond a reasonable doubt, it's a
21:31
Speaker 3: pretty high bar. So like without a smoking gun, a
21:35
Speaker 3: lot of times you get mistrials, you get, there's just
21:38
Speaker 3: not enough here. And so that was a tough one
21:42
Speaker 3: for the case for the, I think for the prosecution.
21:45
Speaker 3: But I think again, what made this different was like,
21:50
Speaker 3: It's just insurmountable circumstantial evidence. There's just so much circumstantial. Right.
21:55
Speaker 1: The blankets, he was wrapped in blankets that she, bearing
21:59
Speaker 1: the initials of a hospital supply company, the same blankets
22:02
Speaker 1: supplied to the fertility clinic that she worked at.
22:06
Speaker 3: And the motive, you know, she was having an affair
22:09
Speaker 3: with a doctor. I mean, that's a pretty heavy motive
22:11
Speaker 3: if she wants out. So yeah, I think, you know,
22:15
Speaker 3: people do go away for heavy circumstantial evidence. You don't
22:18
Speaker 3: always need to smoke and gum, but that was a
22:19
Speaker 3: tough one You know, if you don't have a murder weapon,
22:23
Speaker 3: a lot of in my in my from what I understand,
22:26
Speaker 3: a lot of cases go by the wayside. If you
22:29
Speaker 3: can't connect, you know, the accused to the murder weapon. Yeah.
22:34
Speaker 1: Well, so the investigators also discovered a syringe and a
22:37
Speaker 1: bottle of chloral hydrate, which is a powerful sedative. In
22:42
Speaker 1: Bill's abandoned car, the prescription had been filled on the
22:44
Speaker 1: morning of April 28th using a prescription pad associated with
22:49
Speaker 1: the man she was having an affair with, Dr. Bradley Miller.
22:53
Speaker 2: Miller denied writing it. I mean, how incriminating.
22:56
Speaker 3: You can't explain this. Like Bill's not doing this to himself. Right.
23:01
Speaker 3: So like, I don't, I don't know how you, and
23:02
Speaker 3: these are the things I mean, it's like, there is
23:04
Speaker 3: zero explanation for that. And if she doesn't have an
23:07
Speaker 3: answer for it, she's like, well, I don't know. Where
23:09
Speaker 3: do you go from there? I mean, that's, And again,
23:12
Speaker 3: that's why I felt like this whole delicate flower, I'm
23:18
Speaker 3: completely innocent. I don't know anything. It was never going
23:22
Speaker 3: to work for them.
23:23
Speaker 2: Right.
23:24
Speaker 3: We were better off being like, I hated that guy.
23:26
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't want to be with him anymore.
23:29
Speaker 3: I'm in love with this guy. I want a divorce.
23:32
Speaker 3: I did not kill this guy. I don't know what
23:34
Speaker 3: he got himself involved in. Right. Right. Would that have worked?
23:37
Speaker 3: I don't know. Probably not. Honestly, probably still wouldn't have worked.
23:40
Speaker 3: I think there's too much evidence.
23:44
Speaker 1: A defense computer expert testified that some of the suspicious
23:48
Speaker 1: searches that we talked about occurred close in time to
23:51
Speaker 1: visits to the websites associated with Bill's work or interests.
23:57
Speaker 2: Does that raise questions for you about how the computer
24:00
Speaker 2: evidence was presented?
24:02
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean,
24:07
Speaker 3: You know, Bill's job is like, he was computer tech
24:12
Speaker 3: and in consulting, like it didn't seem to play into
24:14
Speaker 3: this too much. You know, I don't think I, that
24:18
Speaker 3: was a part with me with Bill. Like he just
24:20
Speaker 3: really just seemed like an, like a pretty typical dude. Right.
24:25
Speaker 3: Stuck probably in a bad marriage, but like, obviously that's
24:28
Speaker 3: not that rare, you know? And you know, he was
24:33
Speaker 3: basically like, Starting to feel trapped. So was he increasing
24:37
Speaker 3: the gambling? Was he increasing the womanizing? He obviously didn't
24:40
Speaker 3: want to be in this house. That was well documented. Right.
24:44
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there
24:47
Speaker 3: was a whole lot more. I mean, in the scheme
24:49
Speaker 3: of things, he was doing pretty well in 2004 in
24:53
Speaker 3: his career. He was doing well. He wanted peace. I think, again,
24:58
Speaker 3: the way I played him was I think he felt
25:02
Speaker 3: he needed to get out of there. Right. what Virginia
25:04
Speaker 3: beach was about. He felt more, you know, when you
25:08
Speaker 3: hang around these places where you grew up or, you know,
25:10
Speaker 3: when you're, when you're always going to these casinos, you
25:13
Speaker 3: meet certain people that keep you involved in certain behaviors.
25:16
Speaker 3: So maybe there's a part of this, like trying to
25:18
Speaker 3: save himself, save his family. Let's get out of here.
25:21
Speaker 3: We don't need to be here anymore. You know, let's
25:23
Speaker 3: go to Virginia beach, but she wasn't on board with that.
25:25
Speaker 3: So I don't know if that really answers your question.
25:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it does.
25:30
Speaker 1: So, um, Prosecutors believed that Bill was dismembered inside the
25:37
Speaker 1: couple's apartment, possibly in the bathroom. But the investigators repeatedly
25:42
Speaker 1: searched the apartment, including the plumbing and other areas, without
25:46
Speaker 1: finding any physical evidence establishing it as the crime scene.
25:50
Speaker 2: How do you explain that absence?
25:54
Speaker 3: Well, one thing that comes to mind is they could
25:57
Speaker 3: have blown it. They could have blown their search. Right.
26:01
Speaker 3: They could have missed something and then something got compromised.
26:04
Speaker 3: Just because you don't have evidence doesn't mean they didn't
26:08
Speaker 3: find something. It could have meant it was inadmissible because
26:11
Speaker 3: it was mishandled properly, which is called poisonous tree. Now,
26:15
Speaker 3: I don't know if that was a fax of this case,
26:17
Speaker 3: but I know that can happen. You can't get people
26:20
Speaker 3: to come through and they did something improperly. Right. And
26:23
Speaker 3: I'm like, look, we can't use that now. You've compromised that. Right.
26:28
Speaker 3: That's one particular explanation. And our explanation is like, like
26:33
Speaker 3: I said, her lights are out. Maybe she spent a
26:35
Speaker 3: lot of time planning this. Right. Maybe she was just
26:38
Speaker 3: ready to go. Yeah. Very motivated and not getting caught.
26:42
Speaker 3: Now what's tricky is like, she wasn't a very, she's
26:45
Speaker 3: not a very big person and he, you know, Bill's
26:48
Speaker 3: not a small dude. So that part's a little interesting,
26:51
Speaker 3: but I guess once you start hacking off limbs, it
26:53
Speaker 3: gets a little bit easier. Oh my gosh. Right.
26:56
Speaker 2: And that scene within the movie is.
27:01
Speaker 3: Oh, we were laughing so much. We had so much fun.
27:02
Speaker 2: Oh, I bet. You're like, now it's become a horror movie.
27:05
Speaker 3: We had so much fun filming that.
27:07
Speaker 1: I'm still getting back to your theory because I think
27:10
Speaker 1: that you're right. That what if she, because she's the nurse,
27:16
Speaker 1: knows how to give him the drugs that will put
27:19
Speaker 1: him out. So she does that. And then somebody just
27:22
Speaker 1: comes and takes him out. And they do it somewhere else.
27:26
Speaker 3: It's not hard. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not hard.
27:28
Speaker 3: I mean, look, if she has any kind of connections
27:31
Speaker 3: at all and she wants to find a hit man
27:33
Speaker 3: or find someone who doesn't want to be found. And
27:36
Speaker 3: that's what I mean. It's like, she knows something she's
27:38
Speaker 3: not saying. Maybe something's like, I'll help you with this.
27:41
Speaker 3: It's going to cost you this. If you ever peep
27:43
Speaker 3: my name, I'm going to kill you and everyone, you know,
27:46
Speaker 3: like that's how these things go. Right.
27:50
Speaker 2: It's not like an easy, like here's, here's a grand.
27:53
Speaker 3: Yeah.
27:53
Speaker 2: Take care of it.
27:54
Speaker 3: So it's like, you know, does she know something and
27:57
Speaker 3: she's not saying it? Well, that would explain that your
28:01
Speaker 3: entire family to be completely mowed over. Like you don't
28:05
Speaker 3: hear what you did, you know, but I think it is,
28:10
Speaker 3: it is impressive how there was very little evidence left behind.
28:15
Speaker 3: But again, I would attribute that to, and I'm not
28:19
Speaker 3: trying to, you know, crap on the authorities. I'm by all,
28:22
Speaker 3: by all, Accounts, they did a good job, but there's
28:25
Speaker 3: always a possibility that something was compromised. And then again, like,
28:32
Speaker 3: it wasn't as advanced then. I mean, we still had
28:33
Speaker 3: DNA evidence, but it wasn't as advanced to that point
28:38
Speaker 3: where they can kind of get the microfibers and take
28:41
Speaker 3: it to the lab.
28:43
Speaker 1: And she also had enough time because she didn't report
28:46
Speaker 1: him missing.
28:47
Speaker 3: She didn't have time in the world. I mean, this was,
28:49
Speaker 3: you know, assuming she did do this crime, like, It
28:52
Speaker 3: was all in her time. She could have planned it out,
28:54
Speaker 3: knocked him out on the couch.
28:58
Speaker 1: Oh, God. Right, right. Candace described filming the scene where
29:04
Speaker 1: she had to push the suitcases over the bridge, which
29:08
Speaker 1: have his body parts in them. And she said the
29:11
Speaker 1: props were difficult to handle, even though they weighed less
29:13
Speaker 1: than the real suitcases would have. Did watching that, recreation
29:18
Speaker 1: make you all question whether melanie could have acted alone
29:22
Speaker 1: just that simple part of it.
29:24
Speaker 3: I think so i mean i didn't actually see the
29:26
Speaker 3: filming but yeah i've seen it on the on the
29:28
Speaker 3: screen i think so it's just you can only suspend
29:33
Speaker 3: your disbelief so much right right at least in my
29:37
Speaker 3: opinion until you get to a point and you're just
29:39
Speaker 3: like okay common sense prevails this doesn't make any sense
29:44
Speaker 3: like she can't lift all this a b who's gonna
29:47
Speaker 3: do that in broad daylight right you know i don't
29:50
Speaker 3: pose broad daylight at night but like who's gonna do
29:52
Speaker 3: that in a public setting anyway right why are you
29:54
Speaker 3: doing it on a beach where the waves are coming
29:56
Speaker 3: back in like there's better places to bury it babe
30:01
Speaker 3: you know like right.
30:05
Speaker 1: It's really it doesn't none of it this is like
30:08
Speaker 1: none of it makes any sense to me.
30:10
Speaker 3: Yeah and irrational it was it was an irrational act
30:14
Speaker 3: by someone who was very irrational who i think had
30:17
Speaker 3: help um which would explain a lot of the blanks
30:22
Speaker 3: in the story now not having i mean and whoever
30:27
Speaker 3: helped them was probably good Cause I didn't leave out
30:29
Speaker 3: a lot of evidence. Right. I just don't, again, there's
30:33
Speaker 3: not enough evidence as far as the mob thing goes
30:36
Speaker 3: and the gambling thing goes. It was just a narrative.
30:39
Speaker 2: Right.
30:40
Speaker 3: There's no real evidence that he was. Like just basically
30:45
Speaker 3: Atlantic city gambling mob. Like that, that was literally the
30:48
Speaker 3: whole through line. Right. Right. And I think I remember
30:53
Speaker 3: seeing some of Bill's family, like, Speaking up at the
30:58
Speaker 3: time being like, no, like he just casually gambled. Like,
31:01
Speaker 3: what is this? He wasn't a crazy gambler.
31:18
Speaker 1: Investigators discovered tiny particles of Bill's tissue on the floor
31:22
Speaker 1: mats of his car that is evidence that the media dubbed, quote,
31:27
Speaker 1: human sawdust, which is very upsetting on its own. And
31:33
Speaker 1: DNA testing linked those particles to Bill, and the prosecution
31:37
Speaker 1: expert said they contain deeper layers of skin not normally
31:41
Speaker 1: shed by a living person. but the expert acknowledged that
31:46
Speaker 1: an injury could produce similar tissue. How persuasive did you
31:51
Speaker 1: find that evidence?
31:54
Speaker 3: Once they started getting into that expert of that, I
31:57
Speaker 3: didn't find that very persuasive. I mean, I, to me,
32:01
Speaker 3: everything else did most of the heavy lifting because once
32:04
Speaker 3: you start getting that expert testimony, it's, you're kind of,
32:10
Speaker 3: you know, one expert can say one thing, another expert
32:12
Speaker 3: can completely dispute it. And so that's, I mean, that's
32:16
Speaker 3: the whole game of when they voir dire these expert witnesses,
32:20
Speaker 3: they bring in the prosecution's got their guy, defense's got
32:22
Speaker 3: their guy, they're saying different things. And then, you know,
32:26
Speaker 3: as far as, but I think there's also explanations. Like
32:29
Speaker 3: if the suitcase was in the house, she could have
32:33
Speaker 3: handled it at some point and had nothing to do
32:35
Speaker 3: with the crime. Right.
32:37
Speaker 1: Right.
32:37
Speaker 3: Right. So it's like, you can't really connect that. Um,
32:41
Speaker 3: even cleaning the closet, you can get some of your
32:44
Speaker 3: DNA on something. Right. Right. Um, you know, and same
32:47
Speaker 3: thing with Bill. So I didn't, I didn't, once I
32:49
Speaker 3: got into that, you know, I think it's more evidence,
32:53
Speaker 3: but I didn't find that as compelling as some of
32:55
Speaker 3: the other stuff. Right. Right.
32:58
Speaker 1: And so Melanie made private video diaries for CBS's 48
33:03
Speaker 1: hours while awaiting trial.
33:04
Speaker 2: I find that disturbing also, but that's neither here nor
33:08
Speaker 2: there for this. Um, In one.
33:11
Speaker 1: She worried about her children, how her children would remember her.
33:16
Speaker 1: In another, she described feeling betrayed by people close to her.
33:19
Speaker 1: Did you watch any of those recordings while you were
33:22
Speaker 1: preparing for the movie?
33:22
Speaker 3: Did not. You know, I did not watch any of those.
33:26
Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, I don't know if that
33:27
Speaker 3: would have really helped me do my job too much.
33:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:31
Speaker 3: I mean, that's classic defense. Right. You know, trying to
33:36
Speaker 3: raise empathy. Yep. you know, really doing what you're not
33:40
Speaker 3: supposed to do is trying to get the public involved.
33:43
Speaker 3: And again, I think a big factor in this is
33:46
Speaker 3: we forget how different things were in 2004. You know,
33:48
Speaker 3: this was what, I don't know, 10 years removed from OJ. Right. Yes.
33:54
Speaker 2: Literally 10.
33:55
Speaker 3: Yeah. We were still kind of navigating what the world
33:59
Speaker 3: looks like when we had these big high profile cases. Right.
34:03
Speaker 3: So they were probably playing that game a little bit. Now,
34:06
Speaker 3: did she mean that? I would think on some level,
34:08
Speaker 3: of course, she's a mother. Of course, she cares about
34:10
Speaker 3: her kids on some level. But was her true motive
34:14
Speaker 3: to get out of this thing when she was in
34:16
Speaker 3: too deep? Or was this, you know, actually completely earnest
34:22
Speaker 3: by her? Right. See, I'm sure Candace saw that. But no,
34:26
Speaker 3: I didn't watch any of that stuff.
34:28
Speaker 2: And it is, you know, I think something happens. You
34:31
Speaker 2: can start to believe your own lie, right?
34:34
Speaker 3: Yeah.
34:35
Speaker 1: And then say like, yeah, this sounds good. This is, yeah, no,
34:39
Speaker 1: this is what happened.
34:39
Speaker 3: I mean, everyone's a hero of their own story, you know?
34:43
Speaker 3: So it's like, of course, like she'll like, I'm the victim.
34:48
Speaker 3: You know, if she did do it, he deserved this.
34:50
Speaker 3: He was going to kill me. He's a bad person.
34:52
Speaker 3: I mean, again, you can just, you can convince yourself.
34:55
Speaker 3: And then, you know, the other thing we're talking about
34:58
Speaker 3: as a doctor, we don't know how much influence he
35:02
Speaker 3: had on her. Right. Right. Was he a pretty cunning
35:07
Speaker 3: dude who was leading her in this direction? Yeah.
35:11
Speaker 1: This is why I'm very curious about that as well,
35:14
Speaker 1: because he seems to sort of just fall away and
35:19
Speaker 1: no one really talks about him.
35:22
Speaker 3: I think he lawyered up and he kind of just
35:26
Speaker 3: did what he needed to do. Backed away. Not getting involved.
35:28
Speaker 3: But I also think there wasn't a whole lot on him.
35:32
Speaker 3: Like there wasn't, you know, we didn't have... mic a
35:36
Speaker 3: mic on him i think at one point he miked
35:38
Speaker 3: her on a.
35:38
Speaker 2: Call yes for phone calls right.
35:41
Speaker 3: But we didn't have much on him but like was
35:44
Speaker 3: he in her head like get him out of the.
35:47
Speaker 1: Way or right like we will never know their private
35:51
Speaker 1: conversations right.
35:52
Speaker 3: I mean he seemingly seemingly didn't seem like a guy
35:57
Speaker 3: like that but again we don't know we not only
36:00
Speaker 3: doesn't seem like someone who would chop someone up either.
36:02
Speaker 1: Exactly I find her a very curious, just a fascinating person. Well,
36:08
Speaker 1: I don't, I do because I don't, well, at first
36:13
Speaker 1: I was, I was buying this idea. It sounds good,
36:16
Speaker 1: but to your point, it's a story of just dropping
36:19
Speaker 1: things like, Oh, mob gambling problem, enemies, little violent sleeps
36:25
Speaker 1: with other ladies.
36:26
Speaker 3: Like it's right.
36:27
Speaker 1: But there's no real, when you realize no one else
36:30
Speaker 1: was corroborating anything, I don't think any piece of that story.
36:34
Speaker 2: Like he had a lot of.
36:36
Speaker 1: Friends that were in his defense and then also saying, look,
36:40
Speaker 1: he could be an annoying guy. Like he could be
36:43
Speaker 1: sort of like, he's got a strong personality or, you know,
36:45
Speaker 1: they weren't saying he was this perfect man.
36:48
Speaker 3: You're talking about a guy who was, he was a
36:50
Speaker 3: Navy vet. He had a good job. He was by
36:53
Speaker 3: all accounts, a good father. Like there's not a lot
36:56
Speaker 3: of damning evidence against this man as being abusive other
36:59
Speaker 3: than what she said. Right. He had a record, I
37:03
Speaker 3: don't believe, no criminal record. There was no evidence of
37:08
Speaker 3: him ever being abusive with her. Who doesn't argue and
37:12
Speaker 3: shout in a relationship at some point?
37:14
Speaker 2: For sure.
37:15
Speaker 3: So it's like, that's the part that when I took
37:21
Speaker 3: on the role of Bill, I really took that as like,
37:25
Speaker 3: this guy obviously did not deserve what happened to him,
37:27
Speaker 3: but I really don't think he I never believe the
37:33
Speaker 3: mob aspect from the beginning. It doesn't smell right. Like
37:36
Speaker 3: that sounds stupid. The mob doesn't do, doesn't work like this.
37:39
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe they do. I don't know. I don't
37:41
Speaker 3: know that much about the mob, but it just didn't
37:43
Speaker 3: make sense to me. Right. So, okay.
37:46
Speaker 1: After playing bill, studying the case, discussing it, all these things,
37:50
Speaker 1: where do you believe that Melanie killed her husband? And
37:54
Speaker 1: if you had been on that jury, could you have
37:57
Speaker 1: voted to convict her beyond a reasonable doubt?
37:59
Speaker 3: Yes, I could. I mean, I don't think it's a
38:01
Speaker 3: slam dunk. I really don't because I am someone who
38:04
Speaker 3: really believes in beyond a reasonable doubt because there are
38:08
Speaker 3: innocent people in prison, you know? Um, so it's not
38:11
Speaker 3: a slam dunk, but yeah, like I said, at the
38:14
Speaker 3: very least, she knows something she's not saying and that
38:17
Speaker 3: makes her guilty. In my opinion, she was involved in
38:20
Speaker 3: the murder and, you know, you can still be guilty
38:23
Speaker 3: of murder if you don't pull the trigger. Right. Yeah. Um,
38:28
Speaker 3: So yes, I would have convicted her based on the evidence.
38:32
Speaker 3: And I, you know, I think she'll probably be in
38:36
Speaker 3: for life. I don't, I think she's trying to appeal,
38:38
Speaker 3: but it doesn't really sound like it.
38:40
Speaker 1: The last she, I think she has exhausted her final appeal.
38:45
Speaker 2: She has not been successful with any of them. And
38:49
Speaker 2: that's the last that I read.
38:51
Speaker 3: There's no new evidence. No.
38:53
Speaker 1: And it makes me think about, you know, Scott Peterson
38:56
Speaker 1: was trying, had a, attempt at a new trial because
38:59
Speaker 1: of evidence and, you know, the innocence project took him on.
39:02
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, why isn't she getting that? And
39:06
Speaker 1: I think she's not getting that because they don't change.
39:10
Speaker 2: Nothing's changed.
39:11
Speaker 3: And again, it's like the evidentiary materials are 20 years
39:15
Speaker 3: old at this point. Nothing's changed. It was probably limited
39:19
Speaker 3: as it was. What are you going to litigate about bill?
39:24
Speaker 3: The man's been gone for 20 years. Right. You know,
39:28
Speaker 3: you don't seem to have a whole lot of public support.
39:32
Speaker 3: I don't think anyway. I mean, you may be able
39:35
Speaker 3: to answer that better than me.
39:36
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
39:37
Speaker 1: No, I haven't seen anything that is, you know, kind
39:40
Speaker 1: of erupting about her.
39:42
Speaker 3: No. And this was ripped from the headlines. I think
39:44
Speaker 3: a lot of people forgot about this, especially modern day watchers.
39:48
Speaker 3: I mean, it was 20 years ago. A lot's happened. Yep.
39:52
Speaker 2: A lot has happened.
39:53
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean, there's, you know, the news cycle
39:56
Speaker 3: moves fast. So, you know, I hate to say it,
40:00
Speaker 3: but like, I mean, this was a big crime at
40:02
Speaker 3: the time, but like now this is kind of happening
40:04
Speaker 3: because we're in a world where news is so readily available.
40:08
Speaker 3: We're hearing about awful things all the time now. Right. Yeah,
40:13
Speaker 3: I can't imagine it's going to change for her, but
40:14
Speaker 3: I think it ended the way it should have. And
40:20
Speaker 3: I mean, are there a lot of people who have
40:23
Speaker 3: racially defended her as she was innocent in your experience
40:27
Speaker 3: from what you saw?
40:27
Speaker 1: No, I think, you know, there was a whole podcast
40:32
Speaker 1: that was started on her. I don't know, I wouldn't
40:35
Speaker 1: say on her behalf, but someone approached these women saying
40:40
Speaker 1: that Melanie wanted her story told. And I think they
40:44
Speaker 1: were believing her and wanting to. But again, I don't
40:49
Speaker 1: think there was a big groundswell behind this because if
40:52
Speaker 1: there was, I think we would be.
40:55
Speaker 2: You and I would both know about it.
40:56
Speaker 3: Part of it too is like, you know, deep down,
40:59
Speaker 3: we want to believe her. We want to think like
41:02
Speaker 3: something this awful is not possible. Right. But we all
41:06
Speaker 3: know it is. Right. Like this happens every day, unfortunately.
41:11
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's probably people who want to believe, no,
41:14
Speaker 3: there must be an explanation. Bill got in too deep.
41:17
Speaker 3: It's a really sad story, but it's like, no, it
41:20
Speaker 3: could just be exactly what it seems.
41:22
Speaker 2: And Could just be that she wanted a different life.
41:26
Speaker 3: Wanted a different life. The lights went out. She kind
41:28
Speaker 3: of like something snapped in her. But yeah, the heartbreaking
41:32
Speaker 3: thing outside of a man losing his life was just
41:35
Speaker 3: really what happened with the kids. I mean, lots of parents.
41:38
Speaker 1: I know.
41:38
Speaker 2: Do we know where they are? Do you know where
41:42
Speaker 2: those kids are now?
41:43
Speaker 3: I mean, they're grown. They're adults. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah.
41:47
Speaker 3: I don't know.
41:48
Speaker 2: It's really tragic. It's really. Well, Michael, this has been fascinating.
41:54
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
41:55
Speaker 1: It's really been a pleasure because you also know so
41:58
Speaker 1: much about the law and all of this.
42:00
Speaker 2: So it's really been great. I appreciate your time.
42:03
Speaker 1: And the movie's called Suitcase Killer, The Melanie McGuire Story,
42:06
Speaker 1: and it's streaming on Netflix.
42:09
Speaker 2: And thank you so much, Michael.
42:10
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.