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The IRS, Taxes, Money Stories, and Financial Success with Kristine Stevenson · Marci talks money (and life)

• Marci Grossman (00:16) Hello, I am MoneyMarci, welcome. I am thrilled to welcome today's guest, Kristine Stevenson. Kristine is a Central Texas author, personal and small business finance coach, professional speaker, and IRS Enrolled Agent. In 2017, at the age of 50, Kristine was forced to pivot a second time in life when her husband suffered a life altering illness and they lost all income. She started two small businesses in 2018 out of a spare bedroom in their house, which has become Proverbs 16:16 LLC, a personal services firm helping individuals and small businesses solve their money issues. To date, Kristine's clients have paid off over $1 million in personal debt and changed the default financial trajectory of their lives. She has also negotiated over $5 million in tax debt settlements with the IRS on behalf of her clients as an enrolled agent since 2018. She previously spent seven years working inside the IRS in Austin, Texas, and now regularly consults with a wide variety of financial professionals about their clients' IRS debt. She also speaks to groups both large and small on tax and personal finance issues. Kristine has the distinction of being able to say she literally wrote the book on how to avoid trouble with the IRS. Regularly quoted in many online financial news sites such as Debt.org, MSN Money, Yahoo Finance, Fox News, and Business Insider, she and her husband Joe share seven kids, 12 grandkids, are 100 % debt-free, and occasionally raise backyard chickens. Welcome, Kristine. Kristine Stevenson, EA (02:07) Hey, thanks for having me Marci. Great to be here. Marci Grossman (02:12) The chickens, you know, I wouldn't necessarily start with them, but I feel I have to. Kristine Stevenson, EA (02:16) Yes, we opened up our backyard to six chickens and we named them after Star Wars characters. We had Obi-Hen Kenobi, Darth Layer, Princess Leia, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, this is pretty good. We enjoy our backyard chickens. Marci Grossman (02:32) Well done. Well, it says occasionally, so you bring them in, you raise them, you eat them, and then you go get more chickens? Kristine Stevenson, EA (02:43) Well, then, yeah, sometimes we have to let them go. We had a crop of chickens that developed a parasite, oddly enough, very common for backyard chickens. And our fun little hobby was going to get very expensive very quickly with giving them special antibiotics and special chicken food. And it's like, you know, we're not going to pay a hundred bucks a month for our chickens. So we'll let someone else take them on and maybe they went to the stew pot or I'm not sure what happened. to them. anyway, so that's the occasional part. We'll get a new crop from time to time and start all over. Marci Grossman (03:19) That sounds fun. Okay, all things IRS with you. You ended up inside the IRS. I have seen Austin, Texas address on labels and in the IRS books for all my decades of practice. And here you were really inside that fabled building. Kristine Stevenson, EA (03:35) Yes, yes. Yes, fabled indeed. Who knows? I might have sent one of your clients some sort of CP2000 notice or something like that. Marci Grossman (03:47) Well, most of my clients because I'm Michigan based file in Cincinnati. So you probably were less likely to touch my papers. Kristine Stevenson, EA (03:51) ⁓ okay, yep. Probably not, probably not, but on occasion ⁓ you see from way outside your normal region. Marci Grossman (04:01) Absolutely, absolutely, because it depends where the client is located anyway, not where the preparer is located. Kristine Stevenson, EA (04:05) Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah. So I loved my time at the IRS. Marci Grossman (04:10) did, You've been a lot of places. You were at the IRS, you worked with Free Tax USA and H &R Block Marci Grossman (04:19) and you were involved with VITA. That's the Volunteer Income Tax Assistance Program. I and many of my other accounting friends back in college, that was for some of us the first time we prepared income taxes was with the VITA program. Kristine Stevenson, EA (04:33) VITA, I Marci Grossman (04:34) How did you end up doing all of these various tax related? Kristine Stevenson, EA (04:39) You know, it's a great question. It's kind of interesting how life just sort of moves you along sometimes. It can be very intentional or it can be very reactive or unintentional. But I started with H &R Block years ago when I was looking for something to do to get outside the house, because was raising kids. I wanted something to distract me in the evening and have some adult conversation. So I took the little H &R Block exam and it turns out I was really great at taxes. Who knew? That wasn't my background at all. I hated math and I certainly don't like accounting, but it turned out I was able to do that. And just through the years working seasonally for Block was great. And then I tried TurboTax, FreeTax USA, and I enjoy service, just being a volunteer. And because I spent time at the IRS, I was able to help out. I think it was the Goodwill. locally here where I live in Texas, they were running the VITA program and so they were looking for volunteers. I said, hey, know, I like volunteering. I know about taxes. I can help people out. So I jumped in with VITA. And I've worked with them several years off and on. and AARP, they run a program too. So I've volunteered with them from time to time. Marci Grossman (05:57) and then you ended up at the IRS. Kristine Stevenson, EA (05:59) And then yes, at the IRS, some of that I was actually doing simultaneously, volunteering with VITA while working at the IRS. So that was interesting. But I loved the IRS time. Spoke to thousands of people across the country, literally handled tens of thousands of tax returns, saw all sorts of interesting financial information, Marci Grossman (06:21) At the IRS, were you the person answering the phone? And I would call and say, hey, I'm having a problem, or I don't understand this, or let's... Kristine Stevenson, EA (06:28) Some of the time, my first part was working in submission processing. That was the first part of my time there. And they're the group that handles all the returns as they come in, whether they're digital paper. They go through what's called an error corrections department, which is in the submission processing building. And there's no phone work there. It's just looking and examining returns and passing them through the system. Later, I worked in the under reporters department. which you may be familiar with. That's the CP2000 notices. And part of my time there was spent answering 800 number that goes out on those CP2000 notices. Marci Grossman (07:09) For the people who don't know, a CP2000 notice is... Kristine Stevenson, EA (07:12) A CP 2000 notice is, hey, you left some information off your tax return that we think you should have reported. So we're adding it onto your tax return for you. And by the way, we're adjusting your credits and you need to pay more tax plus interest plus penalties. ⁓ Marci Grossman (07:29) You never want to receive one of those. On an earlier show, I was talking to another tax professional and we had talked about how the IRS will let you know if you don't record all your income, they're not necessarily going to let you know about not recording all your deductions, partly because they won't have that information. Kristine Stevenson, EA (07:47) Exactly. Right. They don't know your circumstances and they're just adding the income and not taking anything else into account. So that was my phone time. And I will say I rarely received a happy phone call from someone calling the IRS. Most people are not happy when they get those notices. And so I dealt with a lot of angry people, upset people, frightened, scared. So I really picked up some interesting unintended skill sets of being able to hear really what's going on, what's the question behind the question and how to calm people down. Marci Grossman (08:25) That's true. And for those of you listening, since this is audio and not video, I want you to know that Kristine looks like a very normal and lovely person. She is not red, she doesn't have horns, she doesn't breathe fire. And this is true of all the people that work at the IRS. They are people doing a job, they want to help, they have the same frustrations you do, they are not out to get you. Kristine Stevenson, EA (08:37) Thank you. Marci Grossman (08:55) They're just trying to help you and your return be accurate. Kristine Stevenson, EA (08:59) And now well said, good for you. And that's so true. Everyone at the IRS is a regular person. They put their pants on the same way every day. They have the same issues. They fight with their spouse. The kids are acting up. They're having trouble figuring out how to pay the light bill. They have to file their tax returns too. And they have a lot of pressure from management to file their tax returns on time because they're actually held to a higher standard than the public to get your tax return filed or with an extension, but more specifically, to pay the tax due. They have a higher obligation to pay their tax by April 15th. Marci Grossman (09:41) Absolutely, you can't have them working there and be out of compliance because then you get into a whole bunch of other issues. Kristine Stevenson, EA (09:43) and owing. Be out of compliance. All sorts of issues, yeah. So it's an interesting place to work. And I did enjoy my time there, for sure. Marci Grossman (09:56) Let's pause for a quick break. So you must have already left the IRS by 2017 when you did your pivot. Kristine Stevenson, EA (10:04) I had left a few years before and that was actually because I had moved and I was in Texas and I moved temporarily out of Texas to Washington State and they didn't have my job in Washington State at the IRS location in downtown Seattle. So because they didn't have my job, I decided, well, it's time to leave. So that's when I left. And then the big pivot in 2017, the husband got sick. had really a major life-changing experience. And I stayed home caretaker for all of 2017, helping him recover and partly into 2018. And we realized, well, he can't go back to work. the disability income insurance policy, which is a great thing to have, strong advocate of that to have one, that's not gonna last forever. So I need to do something and I have all these skill sets and knowledge and some opportunities presented themselves. So that's when I got my enrolled agent credential, sat for those exams and passed it. And then I had an opportunity to go through the Dave Ramsey Financial Coach Master Training Program. And I thought, hey, you know, I want to take advantage of this because I became personally debt-free back in 2012. And I thought, hey, if I can do this, anybody can do this. So I started those two businesses simultaneously in 2018 out of this little spare bedroom here that you see. Marci Grossman (11:33) That's awesome. And you work with firms and individuals solving their money issues. So that's the tax issue and the financial planning and whatever else comes from there. Kristine Stevenson, EA (11:40) Yes. Right, right. Many people that come to me for coaching with their personal finance, don't have any IRS issues. They have other things going on. They have credit card debt, or they're trying to save for college, or they're looking into retirement, or they don't have a budget and they know that they need one, or they fight all the time with their spouse because of money issues and things like that. And so that's one track. Other people that come to me for IRS issues, by default, they do have personal finance issues. Whether it's a business issue, it's the catalyst with the IRS, they have personal money issues as well. So we work in two ways when there's IRS issues, but if there's no IRS issues, it's just this one other focus. But yeah, people that come to me with IRS issues, It's a tough situation most of the time. Marci Grossman (12:42) I'm going to bring this up again for listeners. You are an enrolled agent and an enrolled agent is different from a CPA how. Kristine Stevenson, EA (12:50) An enrolled agent is a federally licensed tax practitioner. Our specialty is tax law versus tax preparation, for instance. I know how to prepare tax returns, but a CPA, that's a state licensed individual, which is what you are, a CPA. And so you are more accounting, profit and loss, cashflow, debits and credits, things like that. Marci Grossman (13:08) Yes. and tax prep. Kristine Stevenson, EA (13:18) Yes, yes, and tax prep, largely. The tax prep I get, and I certainly know how to read a profit and loss statement, but don't like accounting. I think I took a semester of it and that was enough for me. So, but that's really the difference. Tax law versus tax preparation and accounting. That's how I would explain it. How do you think? What does that sound to you since you're a Marci Grossman (13:41) Okay. ⁓ Well, the EAs I know are as much tax prep as accountants, so I only run across them where I run across them, which is typically in the tax preparation arena. Kristine Stevenson, EA (13:49) Okay. Okay, I do some tax prep, but really more it's the representation work. That's the little niche where I live, is that small portion of the population that needs the representation. Marci Grossman (14:10) Which makes sense with your experience in the IRS. I have a friend, I met back when I was taking the CPA exam, mmmmm years ago, and he was at that point in time working to leave from the IRS, but his background was accounting, so he was taking the CPA exam at the same time I was, and then that was his niche while he was practicing, was helping people who needed help with the IRS. Kristine Stevenson, EA (14:19) Hahaha! Okay, yeah. Yeah, I really enjoy the research aspect of diving into people's accounts with the IRS and then, okay, so finding out what's going on. How does the IRS see their account? And then their version, my client's version of what's going on and what happened, how do we fix it? And then how do we use the tax code to your benefit that you don't know is available to you? Marci Grossman (14:37) so. Kristine Stevenson, EA (15:06) That's the wonderful part. hey, you know, you had some unfortunate circumstances. You were sick for two or three years and you didn't get your partnership returns filed because you were sick and you've got all these huge penalties, $7,000 for multiple years. Let's use the Internal Revenue Code for reasonable cause and see if we can get those penalties removed and voila. Make a good argument to the IRS. Sometimes you fight back and forth. Marci Grossman (15:26) Right. Kristine Stevenson, EA (15:33) and you can get those penalties removed. I mean, I've had many clients like that. Let's get those penalties removed because you qualify. They just don't know it. And how would they? Marci Grossman (15:43) Right, right. it's How would they and it's so important because those penalties add up and then when you're adding interest on top of it every penalty that you can reduce just stacks. Kristine Stevenson, EA (15:56) And that's real money that they are not paying out, that they can use for some other purpose in life. And who doesn't like that feeling of, hey I've saved you $50,000 in penalties that you don't have to pay. That's a really great feeling. Marci Grossman (16:11) So tell me about this book. You literally wrote the book on avoiding trouble with the IRS. That's a big deal. Kristine Stevenson, EA (16:17) It is, yes, yes. I published it in April of 2022. And it came out of some experiences I was having with this group of financial coaches that I belonged to. They'd all been through the Ramsey program. And so we were in these little communities that you have on Facebook and they're closed to the group of coaches or mining networks as the case may be. And so each person that came out of that training program, now they have a coaching practice and they're suddenly self-employed. They have small little businesses. And these same questions kept coming up over and over. Hey, do I need to form an LLC? And what's an EIN? Or how do I pay the IRS? And what's self-employment tax? These same questions over and over and over. And I kept answering them over and over and over. And I thought, well, Marci Grossman (17:09) Ha Kristine Stevenson, EA (17:10) Why don't we just write this down in a quick, easy, readable, plain English format, throw some stories in of real situations, draw on my experience from the IRS and how the IRS views the information, and then my own knowledge from preparing taxes and write this up. So it took me, what's the old 80-20 rule? I wrote 80 % of the book in two weeks. And then the final 20 % took another, I don't know, umpteen weeks, several months to finish out the rest of it and got it published. It was an Amazon number one hot new release. It's never been a best seller, but that's okay. I'm not about being a best seller. I'm about, hey, let's get this out and help people. So a lot of coaches buy my book, a lot of people that are not in coaching buy the book as well. And it's really nice to know that people are getting help from it. Marci Grossman (18:09) That's awesome. Let's talk about what keeps people from being successful with their money. They're coming to you for coaching because they didn't learn this information or they learned it and they chose to ignore it, that maybe they felt it didn't apply to them. How are they getting to you and why are they needing to come to you? Kristine Stevenson, EA (18:29) Yes, so big questions and we'll try to boil this down. A lot of people, their money issues stem from what they learned or absorbed early in life. And that's true with many things in life, not just with money. But we absorb who we're around, which is primarily our parents or our caretakers. and money issues, they're learning these things about it's emotional, it's a frightening situation, or it's a glad situation, or it's a tense topic to discuss money, just in general. And parents, by and large, don't teach their kids about money, even the basic stuff, how to save, don't spend everything that you earn, guilty of that. Or parents do teach us that and... because we know better, we don't listen to our parents. And so we have to learn the hard way. And I'm pointing at myself, we have to learn the hard way. I knew a bunch of things growing up, but didn't pay any attention to it. And as a result, suffered the consequences of my own actions or inactions. And that's true with many people. And a lot of people go off to college, or even those that don't go off to college, but for those that do, just say for instance, you're walking down during the first week, of college, when all the groups are out, hey, come join our group. Here's a free pizza if you join our group. Or banks are notorious for being on college campuses. Hey, here's our credit card application. Get a free football or a free cap or a free coffee mug or something and fill out this application to get a credit card. And oftentimes that's the first segue or introduction to a lifelong habit of using credit cards and getting caught in these cycles of debt. And no one that I know of gets a credit card with the intention of not paying it off at the end of every month. Most people we say, yeah, of course I'll pay it off at end of the month, myself included. And they don't. And this is just one instance. And so they haven't learned that the credit card, you're going into debt, you have to pay it back, and then suddenly there's more debt than money and they don't know what to do and it's just a downward spiral of not being able to dig themselves out of the hole. Marci Grossman (21:06) And then you get in a relationship and you get married and you've got two people bringing their own lessons, their own baggage, their own debt into this relationship. Kristine Stevenson, EA (21:16) Yes. Yes. And it could be beyond just credit cards. It could be one's a spendthrift and money comes in, money goes out, money comes in, money goes out. So we get into these conversations and we peel back what's happened. How did you get here? And it's not therapy. I'm not a counselor, but it often feels like that because this is the first time people are really being asked questions about their spending habit, what's triggering you to spend your money or, why use a credit card instead of cash? Because we'll talk about when you pay cash, when you got to pull a $20 bill or $50 bill out of your wallet or your purse, ouch, that hurts to part with that money. But a credit card, easy to swipe, we don't feel the pain of it. So we look into those things and that's why they're coming because they know something is wrong. They either literally feel it, or they can't sleep at night, they're fighting. Those are all symptoms that are manifesting themselves in what they're doing with their money. Marci Grossman (22:28) Have people ever come to you as they're getting ready to get married or maybe after they are newly married and say, we've got financial stuff we need to talk? Have you had those conversations to help them? Kristine Stevenson, EA (22:41) Absolutely. There was a young couple, as a matter of fact, I helped in Waco several years ago. They were engaged and he was a real saver, ⁓ budgeter. He wasn't tight with his money, so to speak, but he was more about saving. And she had no problem using credit cards or spending money. And this had come up kind of in their marriage prep or as they were realizing this is gonna be a problem. And so we talked through some things on what you can do. Here's some books to read. Here's some conversations to have as you get married, because you're going to carry this into your marriage. This is how it's going to be. So figuring this out ahead of time will help you. And how do we go about doing that? And we worked together for three or four months and that was it. And ironically, gosh, two or three years later, they went to, of all things, a Dave Ramsey event in, I think in Georgetown, Texas. I was volunteering at that event and there's thousands of people there and I have on one of those bright volunteer shirts and they were there and they saw me and they came up to me and said, Kristine, my gosh, we're married and we're in line with our money and we've paid off all this debt and I stopped using credit cards and it's so great and you were so wonderful, thank you so much and da, da, da, da, da, da, da. So I kind of got to see the other side of the story, the end of the story. So that was a really nice example. I will say real quick, I've had parents come to me, hey, can you help our kids? They're getting ready to get married and they're having all these problems with their money. And I'll say, well, I'm happy to talk to your adult children, but if they don't want it, you as the parent, no matter how much you want it for them, it's not gonna work. They have to want it. Marci Grossman (24:35) Right, you need to say that about anything really. You have to want to change. You have to want to learn. If not, it's pretty hard. Kristine Stevenson, EA (24:41) Yes, yes, yes. I didn't listen to my parents, even if they had approached me, that, we'll pay for you to get some coaching. Well, that's nice, but unless I have an incentive to change, it's basically a waste of their money and everybody's time. Marci Grossman (24:57) Did you talk about money growing up? Did you learn financial lessons from your parents? Kristine Stevenson, EA (25:03) I learned a little bit about money growing up with my parents and we never lacked for money, but it was the overall theme was save your money. Spending money is not a good idea. A, unless it's on sale, because we never buy if it's not on sale. And it tense conversation. It wasn't ever maybe what we would call educational, sitting down and having a calm discussion back and forth. It had more of a tense, this is what you need to do. No room for, well, what about this or what about that? Nope, you just save your money. So it was, that's what I learned. And I learned that, I wanted to buy a horse, I wanted to have a horse for instance. That's a big thing for a lot of young ladies. And I had to save my money to buy my horse, which I did. I was 13. I had to be 13 to buy the horse. I had saved $400 somehow magically. And that's what I used to buy my horse. And I was able to get a saddle and a bridle as well. And so I was set up, but it was, if you want this, you have to save to buy it, which is actually a very good lesson. But again, it wasn't a educational experience. It was a tense struggle and that has followed me well into adult life. Marci Grossman (26:38) And did that change the way you talk to your kids about money? Kristine Stevenson, EA (26:42) Well, yes and no. What actually changed how I talked to my kids about money is when I realized all the debt and problems I had caused for myself, because I hadn't listened to what my parents had said about saving, because I got into credit card debt and made a lot of bad choices. That experience, getting out of debt, the hard part of that was what I shared more with my kids. And they were a little bit older, so somewhat less receptive to hearing it. And they hadn't been taught from an early age, save, spend and give away. Because those are the only three things you can do with your money, save it, spend it or give it away. And then later, when I went through the coaching program, I would start talking to them about, ⁓ you need to save money, you know, a rainy day fund. And specifically, I would joke around about You gotta save for water heater, because your water heater is gonna go out at some point. So that's your rainy day fund. And now my kids, they're all in their late 20s and early 30s, and they'll bring that up. I got my water heater fund, mom. I've saved money for my water heater fund. So they've learned some, but they're making, you know, they're making their own decisions as well right now as adults. And I don't always agree with their decisions, but if they want advice, they'll come to me. And if they don't, then it's just, You know, mom, ⁓ over their shoulder. A little bit. Womp, womp, womp, womp, womp. So they've listened some, but they do their own things. Marci Grossman (28:08) Fair enough, fair enough. So now they're the ones sounding like Charlie Brown adults. Okay, I know Dave Ramsey, I don't really know his coaching courses and all of that. Does it talk about what it is to be successful with money or is it more of just teaching the skills of how to manage your money? Kristine Stevenson, EA (28:36) It's indirectly about how to be successful with money. His main focus is not to have any debt, consumer debt, with the exception of a mortgage, because most people realistically need to borrow money to buy a house. But his whole concept is cash flow your life and pay for the things that you want. Save money and pay for them outright. which is by and large a good model to follow. And quite frankly, that's what our grandparents did. Because credit cards haven't been around forever. You save your money and you bought with cash and avoided the issues that come with having debt and not just the monetary issues, the emotional struggles and how it affects you personally and in your relationships Marci Grossman (29:10) Right Kristine Stevenson, EA (29:29) when you have debt and the stress that comes with that and the weight that comes with that. So it's more about if you wanna be successful with your money, pay cash for what you want, learn to live on less than what you make. And these aren't new concepts. They should have been around for decades, centuries perhaps. So live on less than what you make, save for the future. Marci Grossman (29:47) Not at all. Kristine Stevenson, EA (29:58) Don't rely on the government, i.e. social security, to fund your old age or to fund your lifestyle when you're older. Really basic concepts and he does it in a way that's broken down into bite-sized chunks. And that's really important. When you want to get ahead, you feel like you have this huge colossal giant monster under the bed. That's what it feels like. but if you can break it down into small steps, then you can tackle it more readily. You're encouraged to tackle it more easily. You have small wins. He likes to advocate the debt snowball method. And again, that's nothing new. That's been around for decades. And if you don't know what the debt snowball method is, you list your debt least to greatest, whether that's a credit card, your Home Depot, car loans, whatever it may be, not including the mortgage. Marci Grossman (30:42) Right. Kristine Stevenson, EA (30:54) and you focus on the small debt first, the smallest debt, and pay that off as quickly as you can. And it's not about the interest rate necessarily. It's the psychological value of, whew, I paid off that debt. Doesn't that feel great? Woo-hoo, I'm inspired to keep paying off the other debts. So you're paying off the smallest debt as quickly as possible while making minimum payments on the other debt. Marci Grossman (31:23) Right, just to get that emotional boost. Kristine Stevenson, EA (31:26) Exactly. So like the snowball rolling downhill, momentum builds and you pay the other debt off faster. And for most people, for most situations, the rate of interest really doesn't matter. If you're really paying off the debt as quick as you can, those high rate interest credit cards, yeah, it sucks if it's 20 % or 25%, but you make such fast progress on the other debt. the interest rate doesn't really matter. In the totality of life, it doesn't really matter. Marci Grossman (32:00) So what do you think keeps people from reaching their own success? Is it just that they're too overwhelmed by the amount and they can't work toward it or maybe that they don't define it? Kristine Stevenson, EA (32:10) Well, it's a combination of both. They have to come to the conclusion, first of all, wow, I'm really not doing the right stuff with my money. What's going on here? There has to be a better way. Kind of hit the rock bottom. Okay, and so we've got that. And so now, well, what are we gonna do to change it? What am I doing? What am I actually doing with my money? How am I spending it? And focusing on the behavior of the money. Where is it getting spent? Is it being spent on groceries? Is being spent on dining out? DoorDash, Uber Eats, Hello Fresh, and nothing wrong with those things. But how are they serving you and are they helping you get ahead to be successful? What does success mean to you? Let's define that. What does it mean to be successful with your money? And for a lot of people, when I'll ask them that question, they'll think way into the future. And they'll think to be able to retire, whatever that means, and so we have to define what that means, but not have to go to work, to be able to stop working and have money there to support my lifestyle, hopefully in the way I would like, and not have to worry about going to work. And so let's define what success means first and what are you doing to be successful today? Marci Grossman (33:28) Right. Kristine Stevenson, EA (33:34) this day looking 25 years or five years into the future, how are you gonna get there? And so it's breaking it down into bite-sized pieces and helping them through those different pieces. Well, let's get rid of your debt because when you retire, one of the best things you can do is have no debt as you head into retirement, whatever that means for you. Marci Grossman (33:54) Right. You do, if possible, want to go into retirement and be done with the mortgage at that point. Kristine Stevenson, EA (33:55) which includes a paid for house, potentially. Yes, that actually is mathematically, statistically the best thing you can do is not have a mortgage payment. Marci Grossman (34:10) Right. Kristine, do you have anything else you'd like to mention that maybe we haven't covered? Kristine Stevenson, EA (34:15) my gosh. Well, if you want to talk about your money or your taxes, please reach out to me. And I know you're going to have a link to really struggling, the first thing you need to do in my opinion, is to figure out what you've been doing and what do you want to change? Where do you want to go? What's important to you? What do you value? Look at some of those things, write these things down. And writing, the act of writing down has been statistically proven to like one and a half times more likely to make a change when you write down what you want to do. So I would say start writing some things down. What do want to look at? What do you want to change? What do you want to be different? And of course it's the beginning of the year. So now's a great time to start to do that and get help. Listen to podcasts. You have a great podcast. Marci Grossman (35:03) Thank you. Kristine Stevenson, EA (35:03) Seriously, listen to podcasts, read information. It's not a lack of information that's out on the internet to help us with our money. And you may need help. You may need a coach or you may need to sit down with a trusted friend and have very open conversations. If you're married, very open conversations with your spouse. If you have a pastor or a priest or a rabbi, whomever, go sit and talk to them. But start, you have to start, you have to have a conversation and begin taking responsibility for what you're doing with your money. Marci Grossman (35:38) That sounds great. Kristine Stevenson, EA (35:40) That's what I would say. Marci Grossman (35:40) Kristine Stevenson, thank you so much for being my guest today. We appreciate you taking the time to join us here. Kristine Stevenson, EA (35:46) Thank you, Marci. I appreciate being here. Marci Grossman (35:49) To my listeners, I will be sharing a link to Kristine's information in the show notes. Please check her out. She shares a lot of interesting information. And don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and stay tuned. I'll see you next time. This has been MoneyMarci on Marci Talks Money (and Life). You got this.