Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / LGBTIQA+ & RAINBOW FAMILIES - Creating Emotionally Safe Access To Family Law Services with Catherine Giles

Transcript

LGBTIQA+ & RAINBOW FAMILIES - Creating Emotionally Safe Access To Family Law Services with Catherine Giles · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this week's episode of the podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: As a valued listener to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, I wanted to jump in quickly before we start this week's episode and let you know about something I'll be releasing in the next few weeks, April 2024.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's something a few of you have asked me for, and it's going to be a small group coaching program for women and anyone who identifies as female who is contemplating leaving a marriage or ending a relationship, moving through separation or divorce.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a supportive space to explore your options, make some decisions, and receive the help you most need.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Community, connection with others who know firsthand exactly what you're going through.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Affordable, accessible, one-to-one coaching support with me in a group setting.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Specific, tailored, expert support with me as your coach because I get where you are.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I intimately understand it and have supported so many through it.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: We'll connect and journey together.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I will lead you through making the decisions you most need to make about your relationship through Aseparation, divorce, so you can decide and thrive afterwards.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: If this is something you are interested in, I would encourage you to join the wait list.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's a link in the show notes so that you will be the first to know when spaces open for this small intimate group coaching programme experience.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And now for this week's episode of the podcast.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartnell, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: In soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the World Tree people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, welcome to today's episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And today on the podcast, I'm welcoming guest Catherine Giles.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Catherine is a partner at Nichols Family Lawyers, which is a specialist family law firm in the Melbourne CBD with a secondary office in Geelong.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Catherine has a Bachelor of Laws and Legal Practice from Flinders Uni in South Australia.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: She was admitted to practice in the South Australian Supreme Court, the Northern Territory Supreme Court, Victorian Supreme Court, and the High Court of Australia.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Catherine and the lawyers at Nichols Family Lawyers work with all members of the community to assist resolving their family law issues, including ensuring access to justice for the LGBT IQA plus community and specialises in providing legal guidance and support for its members.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Nichols advised their LGBT IQA plus clients on various legal matters, including donor agreements, parentage, assistive reproduction, and IVF.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoy this chat that I shared with Catherine and you gain insight into equitable access for all members of our community when it comes to family law.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Catherine, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're so welcome.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's kick off.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just tell us a little bit about you, what you do, how you landed in family law, and I guess what you most like about it, what you most enjoy about the work?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at the moment I'm a partner at Nichols Family Lawyers, and we're in the Melbourne CBD, but also have an office in Geelong.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been a part of the Nichols team since 2017.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I came here as a baby lawyer.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And by way of background, I grew up in Darwin, actually, up in the top end, and did my schooling and law degree in Adelaide.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I went back home and started my career as a lawyer in Darwin.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I practice primarily and specialise in family law and intervention order matters, but I have some experience in criminal law, but I try to leave that up to people who specialise in it these days.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And really essentially my practice at Nichols is specializing in all aspects of family law, complex property and parenting matters and also child support matters.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we find these days it's it's almost in most of our matters, it's prevalent.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I do a lot in that space as well.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: We also uh at Nichols help uh same-sex couples or the LGBTIQ um community in relation to uh surrogacy, donor agreements, and parentage, which are common legal issues that arise in same-sex couples.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's a long way of expressing what I do.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: It gives us a really good picture of what you do, actually.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my next question was going to be about how Nichols as a firm is is known in Australia as allies and supporters of the LGBTQIA plus um community in the family law space.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: You touched on it just now, but I wonder if you can expand a little and share some of the more unique challenges.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: More unique, I think we can only have unique, but anyway, unique challenges that face members of this community when it comes to family law.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I mean, historically, family law has operated under heteronormative assumptions, considering male, female relationships and traditional family structures as the norm.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a result of that, there is um still the presence of biases that influence the way our family law system treats members of the LGBTQIA plus families, um, or at least there is a perception amongst those um community members about our family law system.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Nichols, um we, it's our philosophy to provide inclusive family law services.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: We try very hard to do that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: We um engage in um uh seminars and training to ensure that we we are across what we need to be across and ensure that we're treating everyone equally because that's our philosophy.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's important to us.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um these biases can manifest in different ways, such as differential treatment and assumptions about gender roles, parenting abilities, um, and the misunderstanding of individual roles in relationships such as primary parents or uh primary financial providers.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, unfortunately, this means that some members of the LGBTQIA plus um families may experience or perceive their experience as one steeped in prejudice, insensitivity, or double standards when they seek legal advice.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we're really aware of that and we really work hard to make sure that they don't feel that way when we're giving advice to them.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh good.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So important, so important that everybody feels able to access the same information, advice, and support.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also understanding that um different relationships uh have different um have different difficulties um and they present differently across the board.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but some some people don't realize that family violence can manifest differently in same-sex relationships, including things like um coercive control.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, some uh some people they experience um, you know, them being outed by their partners to family or to the community when they're not ready for it, as one way in which their partner can control them.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think having an understanding of how that that can really affect someone's emotional um and uh and yeah, their emotional safety, I think it's really important for us as practitioners to understand those sorts of differences so that we can help people and understand how that affects them.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's what we really try and aim to achieve in in making sure that our advice is is equal and that people come to us and they feel equally heard.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important to get that message out into the community that Nichols is a place space where LGBTQIA plus community members, families are are welcomed and supported, well supported, and will feel, yeah, we'll feel welcomed.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's really it's also really important, I think, for us as a firm to know um, you know, that there are stakeholders and and and um programs and counseling that that we know can really can really be helpful for um whoever needs it, you know, we're tailoring tailoring where we refer people because we are lawyers.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a I'm not a psychologist, but of course, sometimes I feel like I'm acting like one with my clients.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I feel that we have tried really hard to make sure that we're in touch with um outreach support services that are that are friendly to everyone.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's really important as part of our service is to make sure that we can identify um when someone needs to be to be helped in different ways and provide that referral source to them.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that holistic support of any human going through separation, divorce, parenting matters, whatever it is in terms of family law, that holistic support is so, so important.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, making sure that we we as practitioners, you as lawyers, me as a coach, we're referring to um other practitioners who are aligned with those human beings that we deal with that we're dealing with.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So totally aligned and you know, service aligned too.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I think um it's important to get the best outcome for them.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's important that people are feeling empowered when they're making decisions about their future, whether it's their um parenting arrangements, whether it's about their financial stability in the future after a separation, whatever it might be, um, it's really important that they are in the right mindset, are feeling like they're getting the right support, whether that's from their lawyers or whatever else is built around them, the support system built around them.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just one person.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm just one person giving my professional opinion through my through legal advice.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really important to be able to identify um what might trigger certain people in whatever kind of relationship they were in or are in.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, just building that support structure around around them so that they've got a holistic or, you know, I I talk about scaffolding my clients to making sure that they've got a, you know, they've got a lawyer whose values aligned, they've got if they need a psychologist, and you know, just building out whatever they that particular person needs so that it's a fully supported journey.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really like the word journey, but I find myself using it, you know, a fully supported experience.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it is a journey.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's a journey experience.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a it's in a journey that people find themselves on that they never thought they'd find themselves on, that they they want to get off that that train so desperately and they want to do it quickly, they want to do it as painlessly as possible.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, sometimes it's just not as it it's never what you what you would think.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Of course it is, and otherwise, maybe we wouldn't get into relationships in the first place.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um yes.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not dig dig too deeply into that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Before we dive into the second part of the episode, this is just a reminder that there's always the opportunity to book a free intro call with me to explore coaching options.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: That might be one-on-one coaching or it might be my online multi-module self-paced course.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Please also feel free to jump into my Instagram DMs, ask a question, offer some feedback, and let me know what you would most like to hear about on upcoming episodes of the podcast.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Next thing I wanted to ask you, and you've kind of touched on it, but I want you to expand a little bit more if you can.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you and I both know, and as you've said already, that you know, the law, the family law system is built on assumptions, heteronormative assumptions.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: We have a we have a woman, we have a man, we have a marriage, we have children, we have a mother, we have a father, you know, blah, blah, blah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Even for heteronormative couples, navigating the family law system, it is overwhelming, it is frightening, it's you know, it's all those things.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what do you think really needs to change in the family law system to better support anyone, but particularly our members of our L LGBTQIA plus community?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I think the that family law firms, I mean, where we are the at the coal face, we're dealing where we are um face to face with the clients, they come into us, they usually come into us at a very vulnerable time where things are heightened, something might have happened to trigger uh the separation, um, whatever it might be.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it's really important for family law firms to maintain a focus on ensuring that their services are inclusive, that they're welcoming, that um they're really putting themselves out there to allow their clients to be vulnerable with them and feel like they're getting the equal service as the next person coming in.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think, and that that can be achieved through educating, through training their lawyers on overcoming any latent biases that might be there that people might not even be aware of.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what's so important to understand is that there are some people that don't realize that they're biased and they don't mean to be, but they don't also understand that that has a flow-on effect for the people and the clients that are coming to them asking for their help.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think I think by having that training, it ensures that the legal advice, which is often not what people want to hear.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the that's the thing, is as a family lawyer, I'm often telling people things they don't want to hear, but it's the advice they have to hear because it's what the law says.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it has to be given because because of the very nature of that advice, it has to be given in a supportive environment where someone doesn't feel like it's because of their sexual persuasion or their gender identity.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that they just feel like it's the advice that applies to them or the next person.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and look, I think it's important that um family lawyers, particularly in our firm, where we're always upskilling in terms of um laws that and and the case law that applies to um parentage, um, because in the rainbow com uh rainbow families often there's IVF or donor insemination, whether that's at a clinic or at home procedures or surrogacy, um, there's those those issues that are at play where um different families have have different ideas as to what their family's gonna look like.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a family to them.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that might be, you know, where donors have a have more of a role or less of a role.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, whether who's on the birth certificate and and things like that.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important that we as lawyers really understand the implication of those and give people where it's possible advice before before these um, you know, can these children are conceived.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very helpful to have that um advice early.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important for us as lawyers to understand what that means and how different families might look.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always mom and dad.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, thankfully.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're open, open and expanding our visions of what families look like.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: As we should, as we should.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and I think I think that's that's one of the big things that we really pride ourselves on here.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: We we um we want to be we want to be supportive, we want to be giving the right legal advice and really understanding what that means for people and the way that they um they conduct their lives and their family lives, I suppose, in in terms of before the family's even created.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes everyone thinks family lawyers we come in at separation, but sometimes we come in before, you know.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Which is, I guess, another thing I was gonna ask you.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um touched on lots of them, but what are the more common family law issues you support or nickel supports LGBTQIA plus clients with?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't think we I don't think we give more advice um on any particular issue.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's all it's all really um, you know, property parenting, um, but we do of course give advice about surrogacy and donor agreements, but also um when there is potentially some uh misunderstanding about who the parent is.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and that all stems back to what I was saying before and just making sure that um people get the advice as early as they can to avoid conflict.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you can promote harmony amongst a family, you should, is my view.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that if you can get in early and people can get in early with that advice and understand the the legal ramifications of decisions they're making, then they can make better decisions.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or at least they can make educated decisions.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Educated, empowered decisions that helpfully support a peaceful, harmonious family.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what and what the intention is, of course, you know, in terms of um who's going to be involved and what that looks like and how that will be implemented.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really important.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's something we do do do a fair bit of.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe the heteronormative families could actually benefit from that too.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Couldn't we?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is the thing.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: If all of us knew what it would be like at the end before we went in, I don't know.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was saying before.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'd still go in.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'd still go in.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Coming from a happily married lady, but still.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also wondered you if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about the program on Joy Radio that Nichols is involved in, because I think that's really important for people to know that that's out there and available.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Joy uh is an Australian independent LGBTIQA plus community media organization.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it informs, it entertains, and it empowers our rainbow communities across Australia with the purpose of building, of course, a more inclusive society.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um Nichols has been a proud supporter of Joy for several years.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my our managing partner Sally Nichols um and my partner Beck Dahl present on Joy 94.9 Drive Program.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sound like the ad.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Called Your Law Talk.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a good little segment.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've had to go on there um one time.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was so nervous, but it uh it the the aim of that that that radio segment is to demystify family law in the eyes of the public.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the day I went on, they asked me curly questions about car insurance, and I was not in the space to give advice about stuff I don't know about.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um anyway, but um look, that's that's a really good little program to listen into.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: As I said, Beck and Beck and Sal are always on that.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's their that's their little radio segment.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, Beck, she's one of the she's one of the four hosts of Chicks Talking Footy, which is a great program.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm always so proud of Beck.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: She's always on on these things, and she is the proudest ally in the world.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's the best.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's really, really she's awesome.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I will drop show notes, I will drop links to all of those shows um in the shows in the show notes.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And now, Catherine, the last question and one I ask all of my guests can you share a song or a piece of music that you feel would support our community, our listeners, if they're feeling challenged in a relationship navigating divorce.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, I've got four because I'm greedy.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I will survive by Gloria Gaynor.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can't go wrong.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: I will you will survive.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: You will.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And Flowers by Miley Cyrus, because when we're going through a separation, you can always buy yourself flowers and you can write your own name in the sand.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: But in more treacherous litigation, what about Crimea River?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Loving it, yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: JT and Brittany's breakup song, or bye bye, bye by NSync, because bye bye bye.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want tox, you don't want a toxic life.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: You want you want a fun and happy life.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that's what we we try and make sure we get you on the road to that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when we're giving you legal advice and and and getting you sorted and onto the next chapter.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye, bye-bye.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, bye-bye, toxicity.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, new chapter of my life.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um not dissimilar to the way I work.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's get you moving where you need to go.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's important to have people like you for us because that's yeah, you're there to to coach them and help them move on.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're there to give them the legal advice to help them move on.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's a really important um, you know, part of the scaffolding that we're talking about before.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Catherine, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast for this informative and fun chat.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, I'll drop all the links to Nicholas Family Law, Joy Radio, Footy Chicks.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Chicks, chicks talking footy in the show notes so anybody can find all of those.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Again, thanks so much for being with us.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.