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Transcript

Gabriele Tarquini - Part 1 · Rusty's Garage

0:02
A listener production.
0:14
I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust, and this is Rusty's Garage.
0:27
For this episode, I'm in Bathurst.
0:29
My jaw dropped when I learned that one of the all-time greats of touring car racing, a bona fide legend in Gabriele Tarquini, was in Australia for the recent TCR World Tour.
0:40
We had to speak to him, right?
0:42
If you followed the British Touring Car Championship in the 1990s, you will remember Murray Walker commentating on his drives in an Alfa Romeo on the way to the title at a time when there were 10 different manufacturers and some great names, some amazing drivers on the grid.
0:58
It really was a golden period for that two-litre Super Touring era and some very cool cars.
1:05
He also drove for other manufacturers, stints with Honda, Say It and more.
1:10
The European touring car title is on his CV and he proved that age was no barrier by winning the touring car world championship in his late 40s and a world cup in his mid 50s.
1:21
He's now retired from driving but still involved as a team manager for the Hyundai N Squadra Corsa outfit.
1:28
We'll talk about that, what he thinks of our Aussie drivers and reflect on what must have been a frustrating period for him in Formula 1, driving for mainly minnow outfits like Ocella, Coloni, AGS and others.
1:42
It was a seriously difficult mission to even pre-qualify.
1:47
He was test driver for Tyrrell in 1995 and called up to race for the injured Ukiyo Katayama at the European round when Gabriele was the reigning BTCC champ.
1:58
Two diametrically different forms of motorsport.
2:01
That's a very unusual scenario that we are unlikely to ever see again.
2:06
Touring car champion being called in to race Formula One.
2:10
Gabriele didn't feel GP match fit, so that final F1 race isn't a great memory for him.
2:16
You can't help but feel that he never quite had the machinery to complement his talent and determination, what we saw of him in touring cars.
2:25
Tarquini also broke the great Juan Manuel Fangio's record as the oldest world champion in an official FIA series when, at almost 48, he claimed that touring car world title.
2:39
Plus, what it was like to drive those technically impressive, those awesome DTM machines.
2:45
Meeting Ayrton Senna and sitting down for a conversation with one of the most powerful men in the history of motorsport.
2:53
I've not heard that before.
2:54
We begin this engaging conversation by talking about Bathurst.
2:58
I was staggered to learn that this is Gabrielli's first time here.
3:04
Gabriele, welcome.
3:05
It's fantastic to have you here.
3:07
This is your first time to Bathurst.
3:10
Amazing.
3:10
What are your first impressions?
3:13
Yeah, it's amazing, but especially thinking that I had some opportunity to drive 20 or 25 years ago on this track, and I always had some trouble with the clashes or whatever, and I never joined here on this track.
3:30
It's my first time.
3:32
I drove a road car in this fantastic track and I regret to not drive at the right time with a racing car here.
3:43
So that would have been a V8 supercar back in the day that you had the chance to do that.
3:49
At least you have had a chance in a road car.
3:51
What did you think of it?
3:52
I mean, I think when you see it for real, it's very different to the television, isn't it?
3:59
Yeah, I had followed some races in television, but as usual, television doesn't give you the reality.
4:07
In reality, this track is completely different from a normal track.
4:11
It's something...
4:13
close to the small Norsh life, I think, because you have this mid-sector, very technique, change of direction, very fast corner, no rooms around the corner, so no possibility of mistakes, wall very close, and the first sector and the third sector very fast.
4:39
So that gives you also a mixed feeling, and I think it's very close to Nosh life.
4:47
Okay.
4:48
You are a long way from home, 16,000 Ks, in fact.
4:51
It's Giulianova that you come from, isn't it?
4:53
And you still live there now.
4:55
For Australians that may not be familiar with that, correct me if I don't have this right, it's on the East Coast and probably, what, 250 kilometres south maybe of Mizano, somewhere there?
5:06
Yeah, yeah.
5:07
You're right, it's on the Adriatic Sea, east of Italy on the sea, practically on the sea.
5:16
Same height of Rome, but on the opposite side.
5:19
Okay, and you started karting at about age five, didn't you?
5:22
And your brother had an interest in it and so on.
5:25
Did your dad hire a go-kart track somewhere?
5:29
Yeah, my dad had this opportunity to rent a fuel station on the back of a Goka truck.
5:38
I was five years old, my older brother was ten.
5:45
He started karting before me, but my dream was to drive these small machines.
5:50
And I spent all the time after school into this go-kart truck just working and driving.
5:59
Did it become an obsession for you?
6:02
You fell in love with it and it's all that you wanted to do.
6:05
And did the driving come easily?
6:07
We see you as such a complete driver now that has had some incredible success.
6:12
Did the speed come easily?
6:15
Yeah, I mean, I was starting very young, because you must start very young.
6:22
And I had this opportunity out of the school.
6:26
In Italy, we have three months break on summertime, and I spent full time on driving.
6:33
And that was a fantastic opportunity.
6:37
All my word was go-kart.
6:41
I never think about...
6:43
a car or motorsport.
6:45
For me karting was my dream.
6:49
To be fast on karting.
6:51
What about heroes, people that perhaps you looked up to?
6:56
You did meet a young Ayrton Senna, didn't you?
6:59
Yeah, I met Ayrton Senna when I was in karting in Italy because he came, he was born on 60, 1960.
7:10
I'm from 1962, more or less same age.
7:14
He came in Italy because at this time, but also now, Italy is the...
7:20
I mean the best place for karting and Ayrton comes to do go kart there and I met him in the international San Marino race for the first time if I'm not wrong it was 1977 and
7:34
And I watch, I mean, his driving style, special driving style.
7:41
So, yeah, I spoke just a few words with him, but he remembers very well because after I met him in my Formula One time.
7:50
We have seen you as a driver.
7:54
Was there any other work that you did?
7:56
Did you do part-time work or have you only ever been a racer?
8:01
No, only be a racer.
8:04
I mean, in my career, I did a lot of categories.
8:10
I did Formula One, I did especially Saloncar a lot of time, a lot of years in Saloncar.
8:19
But I was quite unique career because it was so long.
8:24
I won the world title on...
8:27
2018 last time with Hyundai and I was in an age normally other driver with the same age retired 10 or 15 years before that's very strange probably because my interest was only racing I mean I don't have any business around I never open a hotel or a restaurant or a bar so I'm only focused on motorsport
8:57
You talked about karting before and your obsession with it and not necessarily wanting to go car racing.
9:04
Am I right in saying that a friend gave you an opportunity to drive maybe a Formula 3 car and you initially didn't want to do it, but you had a few laps at the end of the afternoon and it changed everything, didn't it?
9:16
That's really true.
9:19
I was not interested in car.
9:22
I mean, my word was karting.
9:24
I was winning Italian Championship.
9:27
I was very good on karting.
9:30
And I made a big step forward to be a professional go-kart driver.
9:37
That at this time was really unusual.
9:41
And when a friend of mine started, he was older than me, and he went to test in Misano a Formula 3 car, very old Formula 3 car.
9:50
It was a Chevron from 1976, something like this.
9:58
And he offered to me the possibility to drive this car.
10:00
And my first answer was, no, it's an old car, and karting is much faster than this old car, so I'm not interested.
10:08
After I won the world title, I won the European title.
10:13
And he insisted on me, he said, you must try once.
10:17
I mean, come and try.
10:20
And finally, I got just probably 20 minutes in the end of the day to jump on this car.
10:28
He gave me everything, the overall, the helmet, everything, because I never jump on a racing car.
10:36
And at this point my mind changed because I sit on the car, I was driving this car and say, yeah, I can enjoy.
10:45
It's fantastic to drive a racing car.
10:47
I mean, the karting is not only motorsport.
10:52
And yeah, something switched on my head and I went to the Italian Federation School just to have the license to raise, but without any money, nothing, but just to get the license.
11:06
That leads me to the fact that you were from a very humble family.
11:10
It wasn't like there was money on tap for you to go and do this.
11:14
How did you stitch that next part of things together in a career?
11:19
It was the Italian school.
11:21
The Italian Federation School was helping me because I won the driver of the year.
11:30
But nobody known me because I never raced in car.
11:35
I was just a world championship in karting.
11:40
And they helped me, especially in the beginning.
11:42
I had a big push, a big boost.
11:45
And in 85, after three races in Formula 3, I jumped in a Formula 3000.
11:51
It was a Formula 2 cars.
11:53
A new category starting.
11:55
And my first race, I finished fifth.
11:58
Second race I started on the first row and I finished fifth.
12:04
And the third race I was on the podium.
12:07
But I was the surprise of the year that after these three races in professional category, Enzo Ferrari wanted to know me.
12:18
And he asked for me, he sent Marco Piccinini, the race director of Ferrari,
12:27
I said, yeah, the Drake want to meet you.
12:31
Did you meet him?
12:32
Yeah.
12:33
What was that like?
12:34
What are your memories of that?
12:35
Yeah, it's an unbelievable memory because I started in the beginning of 85 to be, let me say, racing drivers.
12:42
And in May, I met Enzo Ferrari.
12:47
Huge.
12:47
Yeah, it was 1985.
12:48
It was an Enzo Ferrari...
12:52
old, but I mean very clever.
12:55
It was completely on his conscience.
12:57
He was asking me a lot of things.
13:01
He prepared the meeting.
13:02
That surprised me because he knew everything about me.
13:06
In an era where there was no internet, and he knew my parents' name, the city of where I was born, some other...
13:17
he shocked me.
13:19
Wow.
13:19
Really well researched.
13:20
Yeah.
13:21
And after probably 10 years, I had a chance to speak with his media delegate, and he told me that that was normal meeting for Enzo Ferrari.
13:34
He wanted to shock the person to meet, and he prepared the meeting.
13:40
He had some local journalists to have info from you, particularly.
13:46
At this time it was very difficult and it really shocked me.
13:49
I was, I mean, a young driver just to meet Enzo Ferrari, asking the parents name.
13:56
It shocked me, totally.
13:58
I was shocked.
13:59
Amazing.
13:59
There were lots of Italians racing then, weren't there?
14:02
I mean, you had a great friendship with Nicola Larrini.
14:08
You know, to get a column space, to get sponsorship and things with more than a dozen Italians trying, you know, Formula One or close to Formula One must have been tough.
14:18
It was very tough because we was 10, 10 Italian drivers at this time.
14:22
There was pre-qualifying because 40 cars won't enter in Formula One, but only 26.
14:28
Yeah.
14:28
So it was very hard.
14:34
I miss a lot of pre-qualifying.
14:35
So sometimes your weekend finish on Friday morning at 9 o'clock.
14:41
It was, I mean, something very, very hard.
14:43
And for this reason, I think that in my mind, when they offer me to race in Salon car with a good car, performance car,
14:55
I did Formula One and Salon Car at the same time.
15:00
You have that unique record of being a British touring car champion and even racing for Tyrrell in the same year.
15:06
Can we come back to the first time in Formula One?
15:10
Because this is toward the end of the turbo era, wasn't it?
15:14
What were your first impressions?
15:16
And I know some of these teams that you were with were...
15:20
you know, maybe underfunded or older cars and so on, but still a great chance to experience that chapter of the sport.
15:27
Yeah, my first race in 1987 was paid by the Italian Federation as well, with a very old Osella, but I was there.
15:37
It was my dream and I can start, because at this time Nelson Piquet had a big accident in the Tamburello, the same place of the same accident.
15:47
and the doctor stopped him for the race.
15:50
I was the last one, the 27, but for this accident, I can join the green that started my first ever Grand Prix.
15:58
And it was, I mean, a dream.
16:00
Dream come true because...
16:02
In Italy.
16:03
In Italy.
16:04
But I can tell you, this car, the Osela, had a very old gearbox, and my chief mechanics just before the start said, if you want to do some laps...
16:16
Please start very, very slow.
16:19
Gentle.
16:21
Can you imagine, I mean, my feeling?
16:23
But, I mean, I was there.
16:27
I lost the fourth, if I'm not wrong, after I lost the second.
16:31
But I want to finish my Grand Prix.
16:33
But in the end, Osela stopped me because there was no radio at this time.
16:37
Just panel and say, come in, come in.
16:40
I came in and say, you are too slow to continue.
16:44
And that's, I mean, something that I never forget.
16:47
I always hate Osella for this because he stopped my dream to finish the Grand Prix.
16:53
Enzo Osella, I think, did apologize to you years later about that car, I think, didn't he?
16:57
Yeah, because, I mean...
17:00
he understands my feelings.
17:02
And I spoke 10 years later and said, I mean, my dream was to finish my first race, even last, but just to say I'm finished the Grand Prix.
17:24
Among the line-up of world-class drivers, when Gabriele Tarquini competed in the BTCC was John Cleland.
17:31
The two-time champion had a fierce rivalry with Steve Soper.
17:35
But what isn't widely known is that they almost ended up teammates.
17:40
At the beginning of that 92 season, Vic Lee, the owner of the team,
17:45
had asked me to drive the BMW that Harvey ultimately ended up in.
17:49
Not many people know that.
17:51
But Vic had spent the winter trying to get me to drive it.
17:55
The reason I didn't was that at the time, Steve was the BMW man in Germany.
18:00
He was racing DTM.
18:02
Was I going to get fair treatment over Steve or would I be the second fiddle?
18:08
And I took the decision that I would play second fiddle to Steve.
18:13
So I didn't take the drive.
18:15
So the irony of it all is that car should have been mine anyway.
18:21
You can find the likable Scotsman talking about that famous championship deciding crash in 92 in detail in his episode of Rusty's Garage.
18:29
Plus some fond memories of racing at Bathurst with Brock, Brad Jones and more.
18:34
Now back to Gabriele Tarquini.
18:37
I wish I could say his name like Murray Walker did.
18:40
Was the paint scheme that you ran on your helmet back then and even throughout your touring car career, was it similar?
18:46
Did it have a meaning?
18:47
Was there a meaning to the paint scheme?
18:48
Yeah, it's, I mean, when I was a boy, I loved Spider-Man.
18:52
And I put my, the net.
18:54
Spider-web, okay.
18:56
The net of the spider on my helmet and with the Italian flag.
19:00
So that's the, I never changed the helmet.
19:03
I mean, some small things, but the helmet, since I was racing in karting with the same engine, the same helmet and the same painting, and I finished my career with the same one.
19:14
Amazing.
19:15
Before we get to touring cars, when you look back at the Formula One chapter, I mean, there's a point in Mexico, you ran in the top five, I think at Monaco at one stage, there might have been some electrical problems there.
19:24
There were teams, as we said before, that had their struggles.
19:27
I feel like you never properly had the right car in Formula One to show your talent.
19:32
How do you kind of look back on it now?
19:35
I had one chance at the beginning of 1989 when I jumped in the old AGS, because it was the 88 car, but it was a fantastic car, very good, probably the most competitive car I never drove.
19:51
I stopped in Monaco, I can finish third or fourth.
19:55
That position can change a little bit my career.
20:00
But the only regret I have, I stay too long with IGS.
20:04
I understand immediately that the team was very small, no found, no sponsors, but I stay too long.
20:13
You have IGS especially because they took me, they chose me when I was without car, because my first racing car disappeared before the start of the season on 89.
20:27
So I was without car.
20:30
the incident, big incident of Philip Strife in Rio, I can jump on this car.
20:36
And I had some good offer from Lotus at this time, from Scuderia Italia, and I stay too long with AGS.
20:45
And probably this cost me my career in Formula One.
20:50
But you had an unbelievable career in touring cars and you sort of started that during this period.
20:56
As we come to that part of the discussion, there's a great quote that I read about you.
21:00
Correct me if this is not, if I haven't memorised it right.
21:04
But I think you said something like, Formula One is a great car to drive, but a touring car is the best thing to race.
21:12
Is that right?
21:13
Yeah, it's perfect, my feeling.
21:16
I mean, Formula One, all the Formula are the best car to drive because it's very fast on cornering, the Danfoss, you can feel the Danfoss is the fastest car, and you love this.
21:30
But fighting with the Formula One, with the Formula in general, is not fantastic.
21:35
I mean, touring car is something very different, especially at this time.
21:39
I mean, now you have the steward, the penalty.
21:43
This time it was much more wild.
21:45
I mean, and the way to fight with the others, with the opponent is like a sort of a boxing.
21:54
I mean, psychological boxing.
21:56
You can touch, you can enter.
21:59
And that's, I love a lot.
22:02
Since the first race, I loved this kind of approach.
22:05
And it opened a bit more opportunity for life for you.
22:10
It was a bit more lucrative than some of the Formula One drives and so on, wasn't it?
22:14
Yeah, I mean, my first approach was just to get a chance to be competitive because in Formula 1 I felt, except 2 or 3 races, I felt very, very bad result.
22:27
I was far away.
22:28
I mean, my pace normally was at this time, the McLaren Honda was the fastest car and I was between 4 and 5 seconds per lap slower.
22:41
And if I'm very good, they lapped me two or three times.
22:45
So your feeling is not fantastic.
22:48
And in touring car, I jumped on a very good car since the beginning, my Alfa after the BMW.
22:55
I was fighting for the win.
22:58
And that's, remember me, the go-kart time.
23:00
I mean, I can fight for winning races.
23:03
And so for this reason, I focus more and more on touring car.
23:07
Cool.
23:09
The period that people listening to the podcast will remember fondly, of course, is the British Touring Car Championship there, Alfa Romeo.
23:16
The sport was in a golden period, Gabriele.
23:19
I mean, drivers like Joe Winklehock, Paul Radisic, Roberto Reveglia, Steve Soper.
23:26
You were there in the Alfa Romeo, 10 different manufacturers.
23:29
That super touring era was amazing, wasn't it?
23:32
It was amazing because this time manufacturers spent a lot of time to be there.
23:37
There was the epic fight between BMW and Alfa Romeo.
23:43
I mean, if I can imagine, I drove just two seasons for a BMW, but I feel much more Alfa Romeo driver because it's an Italian brand.
23:53
I spent more than 10 years with them.
23:56
I won the European title in 2003.
24:00
I won the BTCC 94, that for me is like a world title.
24:04
I mean, this time in British was the top of the touring car.
24:09
There was 10 manufacturers, different manufacturers, three tires manufacturers.
24:15
I mean, the budget was unlimited.
24:20
That's race.
24:21
I mean, it was a fantastic era in touring car.
24:25
You have since then driven for lots of different manufacturers, and I'm sure you've got good memories of all of them.
24:31
What was that 155 like to drive?
24:34
What memories does that evoke for you even now?
24:37
It's the first car I developed, because I start with this car that was, in Italian, we call this Furgone, because in the beginning it was not a competitive car.
24:51
Furgone means a small truck.
24:56
But the first season in 1993 it was not a fantastic car, but later on it became a winning car.
25:03
In 1994 it was.
25:05
I drove very good, but I was on the proper car, a very competitive car, with a very good engineer, with very good mechanics.
25:15
I had everything to win.
25:17
It was not only driving.
25:19
And you must share this every time.
25:22
I mean, you must know what's your potential and also the potential of the people around you.
25:28
And I had everything to win on 94.
25:32
But I feel this from the beginning that the potential of the Alfa Romeo was huge because they want to win.
25:40
At the same time, they run the DTM
25:44
Larini won on 1993, beating the Mercedes and the Opel Vectra in DTM, winning Norshleif.
25:55
So at this time, Alfa Romeo was unbelievable.
25:59
The budget probably was like a Formula 1 team budget.
26:03
It was a clever design and the sport sort of took a step then aerodynamically.
26:08
I mean, a lot of the rivals looked at the car at that stage.
26:14
Can you remember how satisfying it was to win against those drivers and with that car in that period?
26:21
In your career at that point when you'd had those struggles in Formula One, that must have been immensely rewarding.
26:27
Yeah, it was like this.
26:28
I mean, it was rewarding.
26:30
It was a personal revenge into the motorsport because in touring car, I was one of the top there at this era.
26:42
And I can win races, I can win championships, I can fight with the best touring car driver in the world because at this time in England there was...
26:53
You told names, but it was unbelievable.
26:57
Who was the fiercest rival?
26:59
Radisic at this time was, and John Cleland.
27:03
Yeah, the two hardest opponents were these two.
27:08
You had to learn some of the smaller British shirk at Stingham.
27:11
I mean, we immediately think of Silverstone and the famous place, Brans Hatch and so on, but you had to learn little places.
27:16
And there was a famous rollover at Knock Hill, which everyone remembers.
27:21
And was the boss of Fiat there, I think, too?
27:24
Sitting and watching at this corner.
27:27
Yeah, I mean...
27:30
I was thinking I knew some track in Formula One.
27:33
For me, I knew Donington and Silverstone.
27:37
That's it.
27:39
But when we prepared the pre-season test, we went there.
27:45
The weather was not fantastic.
27:47
But this small truck like Snatterton or Ulton Park, Knock Hill, I never been there.
27:53
So for me it was, I mean, even in Italy, the smaller truck was not as small as in England.
28:00
It was really old style truck, but very small.
28:04
and you must fight with the people knows very, very well this track.
28:09
It's like if people join you in battles.
28:12
I mean, the locals are stronger than you immediately.
28:17
And the fact that I was from the beginning on the pace, it means that I had a very good car, and also my driving was not bad.
28:36
That's the end of part one of my podcast with legendary touring car racer Gabriele Tarquini.
28:41
We have barely shifted into second gear in this feature chat.
28:45
There's lots of great stuff to come and it's all parked in the garage library and ready for you to enjoy whenever you're ready.
28:51
From winning the world title at a time when most are retired from frontline sport.
28:57
how difficult it was to eventually stop and what he's doing now, lending his incredible bank of knowledge from years and countless laps perfecting race cars and how it helps the next generation.
29:11
And oh, oh, off!
29:13
It's Tarquini!
29:15
Gabriele Tarquini in the Alfa Romeo.
29:18
Thank heavens he's safe out of the car, rushing to safety.
29:22
It's a very dazed and battered Gabriele, leaning against the barrier...