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"New Year, New Biden." · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Joe Biden marks one year in office
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: with a two-hour press conference and a Republican filibuster of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: voting rights. Run for Something's Amanda Littman joins to talk
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: about the local races that could help prevent the next coup.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: And Donald Trump's legal troubles aren't going away. But first,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: check out this week's Pod Save the World, where Tommy
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: and Ben interview Secretary of State Tony Blinken just hours
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: before he jumped on a flight to make a minor
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: incursion into Ukraine. Great.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: I wanted to.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Make sure you were paying attention, Dan.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Great Ukraine joke.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Been workshopping that all morning. Um... Also, Tommy and Ben
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: offer some tips about how to respond to whataboutism and
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: foreign policy. In this case, they're talking about comments by
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: a soulless Silicon Valley billionaire who said he didn't care
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: about the genocide against the Uyghurs in China. Also, check
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: out this week's America Dissected where Abdul talks to former
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: CDC director Tom Frieden about the past, present, and future
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: of the agency he once ran. New episodes of America
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Dissected drop every Tuesday. Don't miss it. All right. Let's
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: get to the news, of which there was plenty on Wednesday.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Senate Republicans filibustered the John Lewis Freedom to Vote Act.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: 48 Democrats voted to break the filibuster, but failed because
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema refused to change the Senate rules.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: And during the longest presidential press conference in history, Joe
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Biden predicted that Russia would invade Ukraine, expressed confidence that
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Congress will pass parts of Build Back Better and reform
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: the Electoral Count Act, took responsibility for being slow to
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: ramp up COVID testing, said that the prospect of an
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: illegitimate midterm election is possible, and touted his administration's progress
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: on the pandemic and the economy.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: My guess is he will move in. He has to
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: do something. And it depends on what it does. It's
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: one thing if it's a minor incursion. I'm confident we
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: can get pieces, big chunks of the Build Back Better
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: law signed into law. I predict to you that we'll
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: get something done on the electoral reform side of this.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: I'm going to continue to make the case why it's
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: so important to not turn the electoral process over to
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: political persons who are set up deliberately to change the
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: outcome of elections. Should we have done more testing earlier?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: But we're doing more now. I didn't overpromise, but I
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: have probably outperformed what anybody thought would happen.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: What a journey. I want to start by pointing out
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: that reporters were tweeting complaints during Biden's opening statement that
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: he hadn't taken any questions yet right before he held
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: the longest press conference in history and took a lot
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: of questions. Just like, wait a couple minutes for the
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: fucking opening statement to end before you start tweeting your complaints.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, how many times, I mean, you saw it,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: yesterday as well, where reporters are like, why won't the
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: president answer our questions? Why are his answers so long?
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: It's just, it's unbelievable. How do you think it went?
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: What was good? What was less good? And do you
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: think it was a net positive overall? Okay.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Well, first I love the energy and here, here's the context.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: The reporters have been complaining for months that Joe Biden
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't do enough press conferences. So here's Biden's attitude. You
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: fuckers want a press conference? I'll give you a press conference.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Here's two hours. You want ice cream? You're going to
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: eat ice cream until you puke. That's what we're doing.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: That's what he gave them. That's what he gave them.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Was it a net positive? I think it absolutely was.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I think it is incredibly important, and we'll talk about
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: this a little bit later in the pod, but it's
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: incredibly important that people see more of Joe Biden. And
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: he's either going to tell his story or someone's going
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: to tell it for him. And being out there was
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: the right thing to do. Was it perfect? Of course not.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: No one has given it to our press conference in history,
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: and no press conferences are perfect. I thought the good
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: part was people seeing Joe Biden being in command delivering
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: his message. That is good. Were there some problems? Look,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I don't pretend to be an expert in Ukraine.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Nor do I, Dan. Something went off in my head
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: when you said that.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: All I know about the issue is that is what
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Tommy and Ben tell me on Pod Save the World.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to have to really wait until next
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: week's episode to fully understand what would happen. But I
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: got this in since Jen Psaki tweeted afterwards a clarification,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: and then Biden clarified it again this morning that the
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: message delivered was not exactly what sort of the interagency
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: process would have wanted him to deliver. But all in all,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: I think it was a good performance. It dominated the
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: coverage going in. Think about it this way, I guess.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Either the coverage going into the one year anniversary is
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: going to be about Joe Biden's press conference, Joe Biden
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: making the case for what he's done, or it's just
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: going to be a bunch of videos of Kyrsten Sinema
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: getting her high fives from Republicans as voting rates goes down.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: And so this is preferable to that for sure.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: So I thought on the good side of the ledger,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: like you said, energetic, mostly a happy warrior, few moments,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: a few moments where he got a little annoyed, but
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: mostly a happy warrior, which is where you want Joe
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Biden to be.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: He's speaking to the most annoying people on the planet,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: asking questions designed in a lab to be annoying.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, we know that. We know that. Uh, he
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: took all their questions, even the dumb ones, um, took
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: responsibility where he needed to. I think there were, he clearly,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: they prepped him on this. And there was a few
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: times where he pointed out over and over again, that
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Republicans have no agenda. Like I said, what's your plan, Mitch?
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I thought that was probably some of the strongest, uh,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: messaging from him during that press conference. Look, on the
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: less bad side, you know, you pointed out the Ukraine thing,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: but I think the Ukraine answer stems from a larger
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: issue with press conferences in general. Like people, voters, they
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: care about answers to their problems, right? So you're at
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: a town hall, they ask you questions like, what are
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: you going to do about inflation? What's your plan to
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: end the pandemic? Reporters care about making news. So they're
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: going to try to bait you into political analysis and hypotheticals.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: And Biden took that bait way too many times. right?
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: He took it on the Ukraine answer. He got himself
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: into this mess on, you know, do you think the
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: midterms will be illegitimate if we don't pass voting rights?
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Just like an annoying question. But, you know, he sort
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: of went down the path. When you really read the transcript,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: it's such a mess that I don't, he didn't actually
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: say the midterms are going to be illegitimate. He said,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: if someone tries to overturn an election or throw out votes,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: it could be illegitimate, which like, yeah, obviously, but it
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: was like all messed up and a lot of jumble there.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: But the problem is, I think when you start engaging,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: and this is why every staffer tells their boss to
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: not engage in hypotheticals with the press, because when you
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: start engaging in hypotheticals, you start sounding like an analyst.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: You start sounding like someone who is just like observing
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: events as opposed to shaping events. And I think one
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: of his biggest challenges right now and one of his
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: biggest challenges in the last year is that he's looked
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: like someone at times who has been who is just
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: observing events instead of shaping events, which you're supposed to
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: do as a president. I think Ashley Parker with this
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: piece in the Washington Post the other day and cited
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: some focus groups that Celinda Lake did, who's a Democratic
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: pollster who worked for the Biden campaign. And one person,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: like I think one suburban mom in the focus group
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: was a swing voter, said sometimes Biden seems like he's
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: a supporting actor, right? And so when that is the
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: view of You just have to think about using language
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: that's more like, I am going to do this. We
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: should do this. I believe in this. I won't let
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin do this. You just need to speak in
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: more active language and not do so much analyzing, which is,
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I think, what happened in this press conference a lot.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I think this is a problem that all presidents stumble into.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Our former boss certainly did. It's a problem.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This was the guns and religion problem. thing, right?
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: He's like analyzing voters in Pennsylvania. You never want to
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: be doing that.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You never want to do some sort of psychological
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: diagnosis or sociological diagnosis of a person or a population.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: But I think- Or Vladimir Putin.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: A rule for the press and presidents is if the
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: question sounds like something that Anderson Cooper would ask David Axelrod,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't ask that question. And if your answer sounds
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: like what David Axelrod would tell Anderson Cooper, you shouldn't
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: give that answer, right? It's like, you're not, you're not
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: pundit in chief. Everyone falls into this. The president's fallen
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: into it. But I do think the hard part, like, obviously,
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I do want to say that I am sort of
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: selling myself short as a Ukraine expert because I still,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: to this day, I believe, am banned from entering Russia
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: because I talked about Ukraine on Meet the Press in 2014.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: So that's some credentials right there.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: You and, uh, You and Rhodes, right? Me and Rhodes.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Tommy could just go to Moscow whenever he wants.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Tommy.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Anywho, but I think one of the problems for Biden
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: is he's giving this, like, obviously he was a senator
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: for a very long time. This is how senators talk.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Right, because they're not used to being executives with power
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: and can take action.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, and even vice presidents, right? It's a similar dynamic.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: But also the problem is he knows a lot more
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: than the rest of us do, so he knows what's
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: likely to happen. So it's very hard to be like,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: do not do this thing that I know is going
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: to happen. I know how limited my options are. And
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: so the answer was not great, but I sort of
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: understand the context that presidents can find themselves in in
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: those situations, particularly as it relates to Russia.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, look, I think overall he probably had
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: to do this because he hadn't done a press conference
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: in so long. And, you know, reporters whine incessantly about it.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: This would not be part of my strategy in 2022.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: I would not do these these press conferences again. I
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: would do interviews. I would do some shouted answer, some
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: shouted questions here and there from reporters. But every time
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: the press whines about having another press conference, I would
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: go do a town hall with voters. I think they ask.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: And it's not like voters, not voters even asking softball questions.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: When voters ask tough questions, they are still questions that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: force an answer out of you that is speaking to
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: the concerns that are relevant to people's lives and not
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: speaking to what's going to make some reporter news so
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: they can get clicks.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, town halls is clearly Biden's favorite format. And
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: he's done a bunch of them. He did a lot
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: during the campaign. He clearly prefers them. over both press conferences,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: as anyone would. Press conferences are one of the worst
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: ways to get your message out. He also prefers them
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: over one-on-one interviews. He's done very, very few one-on-one interviews,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: and I'm not sure exactly what the reason is. The
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: problem with the town hall strategy is there's CNN and
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: there's MSNBC. There's just a limit to the number you
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: can do. Maybe every once in a while you can
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: convince ABC to do one with George Stephanopoulos, but they
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: can't be the centerpiece of a communication strategy because There
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: are just limited numbers of times that you can do
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: that to get any sort of traction.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you'd have to make news at them. Yeah. So,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could have a situation where you go
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: to a town hall because you have a piece of
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: news to make. And then even if it's not like
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the whole thing's not covered live, you're still making some
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: news at the town hall because you're announcing something. And
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: then you're still just taking questions from voters. Maybe they
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: cover the whole thing. Maybe they don't. But at least
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: the headline is Biden was at a town hall when
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: he announced something. something from the infrastructure bill, some grant, right?
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: So you could argue that this press conference was a
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: microcosm of President Biden's first year in office, which has
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: had its share of ups and downs. His administration vaccinated
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: over 200 million Americans, saving at least 1 million lives
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: so far. They oversaw an economic recovery that's led to
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the biggest drop in unemployment and the most jobs ever
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: created in a single year. They passed one of the
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: biggest economic relief plans in history. That's led to the
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: lowest child poverty rate ever and 5 million more Americans
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: with health insurance, the largest investment in infrastructure since the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Interstate Highway Program. And they confirmed more judges in their
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: first year than any other president. On the other hand,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: two new variants have prolonged the pandemic into its third
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: year and sparked the worst inflation in decades, while a
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: deadly withdrawal from Afghanistan kicked off the final months of
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: a year where Congress failed to pass legislation on climate,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: health care, immigration, voting rights, criminal justice reform, student debt,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the minimum wage, gun violence, and much of the rest
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: of Joe Biden's agenda, leaving him with an average approval
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: rating of 42% in a country where 70% of the
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: electorate thinks we're heading in the wrong direction. First question,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: listening to this list.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Were you at the press conference yesterday? Were you the
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: optimist from the press conference?
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Why do you think the bad news has crowded out
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: the good news in the media and in people's minds?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the most... I just want to say
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: one thing that sort of gets left out of the
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: conversation about this past year. Donald Trump is not fucking president.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a big deal. You think people need that reminder?
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: You don't think people know that?
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I just think as we're thinking about things that
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden accomplished that were really good for America and
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: the world, that's one of them. He beat him.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Might be baked into the baseline.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not so sure given where the baseline is
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: these days.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: That baseline is a little bit lower than the number
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: of people who very much wanted Donald Trump to not
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: be president.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: So to your question is, why is the bad news
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: crowding out the good? You sort of answered that question
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: in your question, which is we are entering the third
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: year of a once-in-a-century pandemic and inflation is at a
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: 40-year high. That is a big deal. So it's very
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: hard to make the case about all the things you've done,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: the things that are going to have benefits over the
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: long term, the fact that The economy is doing better
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: when you can't leave your house, you're worried about your kids,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of life is screwed up because of the pandemic,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: and your cost of groceries, gas, and a whole bunch
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: of other things have gone way up. So your dollars
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: are going less far. And that's not Joe Biden's fault
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: by any stretch of the imagination, but because he's the
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: one in charge, he's paying a price for it. And
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: so there's just not– given those facts, the public is
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: not open to arguments about why things are good. Hopefully
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: that's going to change in the coming months. They were
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: open to why arguments about why things were good a
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: year ago when the people were getting vaccinated pre Delta before,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: you know, gas prices spiked up, which have come down
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: in a lot of places, but that's the, that is
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: the primary problem is the political atmospherics suck. And there
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: is no message. There is no slogan. There is no
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: press conference. There's a five hour press conference, a two
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: hour press conference, no town hall with Don Lemon that
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: solves that problem. You need, if you, You need the
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: clouds to recede to be able to tell people how
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: good the weather is.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: What about another CNN host besides Don Lemon? Would that
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: do it? What if it was Dana Bash Town Hall
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: or Jake Tapper Town Hall?
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, you're right. It's negativity bias, right? Well,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: things are negative. There's two problems. But like when there's
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: also good things. That's why everyone's like, oh, it's the media.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: The media is brainwashing people into thinking everything's bad. No.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: When when there's high inflation, we're still in a pandemic.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Negative feelings stick in our mind more than positive or
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: neutral feelings. That's a psychological phenomenon from way back when.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: It's just like we focus on the negative. That's what happens.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: And so that's that's where we are right now. What
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Well, there's a media problem, too.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: There are, of course. Well, yeah.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, the media.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: No, I'm going to defend the media.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Once again, they're doing a great job as they always
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: have been.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, the media covers bad news more than they
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: cover good news. That has always been true. It's exponentially
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: more true now that much of the media depends on
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: referral traffic from the Facebook algorithm, which, as we know,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: is a fucking hellhole of toxicity, sending people bad news.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: And so, oh, my God, supply chain crisis. The stores
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: are empty. We must cover that story. And then it's like, oh,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: no one writes stories about people's Christmas gifts arriving on time.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: And that's been true for a long time. But it's
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: even more true now in a sort of social media
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: clickbait driven digital advertising world.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: So knowing all this, what do you think president, the
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: White House, Democrats in Congress could have done differently over
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: the last year and what was beyond their control?
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: The biggest, I would say that 80 to 90% of
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden's political problems are beyond his control. And I
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: think that's true for most presidents. 80 to 90% of
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump's political success over the first few years had
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with Donald Trump. He was succeeding in
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: spite of himself because he was governing in a time
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: of a great economy and relative peace and prosperity around
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: the world. And no pandemic. And it wasn't until the
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: pandemic hit in 2020 that the consequences of his disastrous
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: leadership came into play. Just because you can't control most
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: of it doesn't mean you did everything perfectly. Obviously, there
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: are things around the pandemic, particularly in Omicron, around the
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: availability of testing and masks and clear, better guidance from
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: health officials around boosters and which masks to wear and
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: when you're safe and when you're not and when to
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: quarantine and when not to quarantine would make things easier.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: But even if they did that perfectly, you would still
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: have a huge political problem. I think the biggest mistake
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: that everyone– made over the last year politically is expectations management.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Say more about that.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Well, we have continually made promises we cannot keep and
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: sort of knew we were unlikely to keep. $ 6 trillion
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Build Back Better plan, $ 3. 5 trillion Build Back Better plan. Now,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: people were out there saying that we think we're going
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: to get this big bill with all of these things,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: including expansion of the child tax credit, while Senator Schumer
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: was walking around with a signed note from Joe Manchin
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: in his pocket with Joe Manchin's upper bound limit of
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: like a trillion and a half and a bunch of
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: things he wasn't going to do that we wanted to do.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: And we never told people that. Doug Sosnick, who was
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's political director and a really smart political advisor
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: for a number of years, had a quote in that
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: same Washington Post story that you mentioned where he said–
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: he made a similar point about expectation management. He said
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: there's a saying in Washington where it's not whether you
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: win or lose, it's whether you beat the spread. And
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: we've continually put ourselves in a position where things that
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: would be huge, gigantic successes in any other situation are
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: devalued because we promised something bigger. And that's true in
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: the Senate. That's true from the White House. I think
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: that's true from some of the things we've said on
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: this podcast. And we have not really reckoned with the
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: reality that we live in a world with an incredibly
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: narrow House majority and a Senate where Joe Manchin, in
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: a state that Donald Trump won by 40 points, and
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Kyrsten Sinema– who seems to be a real challenge in
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: all sorts of ways, sign off on everything. And so
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: there are just limits.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, for those of us not on the inside,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: there was plenty of times where you could parse Joe
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Manchin's statements, which are, I don't know if you've noticed,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: not very clear all the time, and think like, maybe
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: he's willing to do this or maybe there's some give here, blah, blah, blah.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: To a lesser extent, same with cinema, just because she
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: didn't talk as much publicly as Joe Manchin does. But
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I always thought that on the inside, if you were
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Schumer or the White House or something, they were having
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: conversations making them a bit more optimistic. I still don't
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: know why you don't just pull Manchin and cinema aside
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: very early on in the year and be like, hey,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: What's possible? What's not possible with you two? Just let
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: us know now so we can plan accordingly. And I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: don't I don't understand. I mean, maybe they did have
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: those conversations. Maybe they were lied to.
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: Who knows?
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Who knows? But I do. Yeah, I think there were
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: four things beyond their control. Delta, Omicron, Mansion, Cinema. Those
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: are the and inflate.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Delta and Omicron led to the inflation, right? The inflation
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: is coming from COVID. We probably would have had inflation,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: at least not this badly, without a pandemic. And I think,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: so what was within their control is how they responded
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: to those four things. And I think you're right. There
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: was an expectations management problem with Manchin and Sinema. And
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: there was also letting, I mean, it all comes back
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: to the same thing I was saying for the press conference,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: which is it's too much letting other people drive the narrative, right?
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: And on the legislative side, that was like all the
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: goobers in Congress. And on the pandemic side, it's like, look,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden came into the White House promising to follow
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: the science, unlike Donald Trump did. But and I don't
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: think like he should have ever put politics ahead of
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: science when it comes to like, you know, stepping over
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: CDC's recommendations, stuff like that. But in terms of communicating
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: to the public about the pandemic. that is the Biden
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: administration's job. And I think that like, I'm sure, I'm
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: sure they are not so happy with the CDC in
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: the White House and some of the proclamations that came
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: from the CDC. And I think like taking over messaging
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: from the CDC, again, not disagreeing with them, not trying
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to say, oh, this is more politically important. So I'm
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: going to, you know, ignore the science on this. Don't
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: do any of that. But like the coordination of the
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: message about the pandemic has to come from the White
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: House and the CDC and everyone else has to be
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: on board And I think probably in the next year,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: hopefully we're not talking about it in a year's time,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: but like messaging about new variants, new waves, new restrictions,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: new tools, all this kind of stuff has to come
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: directly from Joe Biden himself much more than it's coming
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: from the CDC and these other public health agencies.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I think that is one of the big problems that
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I think is being– we're seeing it being addressed as
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the calendar year turns because Biden gave that big– January
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: 6th speech. He gave that big voting rights speech. He
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: chose to give this press conference. I mean, it is
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: not– there is a tradition that presidents give press conferences
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: the day after elections. There's no tradition that's like you
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: give a one-year press conference that just happens to fall
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: on the day that the Senate decided to run directly
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: into a wall repeatedly. But he did it, right? Because
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I think there is an acknowledgment that Joe Biden has
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: been overly absent from the political conversation over the last year.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: And they're trying to change that. And that has not–
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: because it was true in the campaign. The more people
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: see Joe Biden, the more they like him. And they
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: haven't seen enough Joe Biden over this year. And look,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I am sympathetic. They're doing a gazillion things. They're doing
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: it in the most challenging situation possible. Biden made the
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: point when he talked about getting out of Washington that
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: the pandemic has made things much harder. It absolutely has.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: But you're sort of now going to have to work
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: around some of that stuff. And he has to be
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: sort of– we're going to see more of him making
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: his own case, which I think would be good.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: And I should say, look, there is no shortage of
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: advice for the White House right now. All you have
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: to do is click any news site. There's a lot of,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: you know, what Joe Biden should be doing differently. So
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: which is always always fun advice to get when you're
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: sitting in the White House making all these decisions. And
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: we should say that, like, I don't think I don't
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: think you believe either that like more Joe Biden and
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: better messaging can fix a lot of these fundamental challenges,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: many of which are beyond his control. But, um, You're
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: sitting in the White House every day. You need to
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: do something. You need to have some kind of message
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: and communication strategy and legislative strategy and policy strategy. And
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: even if it's not likely to fix everything, you got
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: to try. Right. And so I think you saw Biden
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: do that, as you mentioned, at the end of the
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: press conference. He was asked some question about what he
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: was going to do differently, said he wants to leave
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: the White House more so he can talk directly with
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: more people. He said, bring in more outside experts and advice.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Staff loves that one. Staff loves to hear that more
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: experts and advice are coming. And focus on campaigning in
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: the midterms. One, does that all seem right to you? Two,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: if you were sitting in the White House, what would
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: your memo to the president say about 2022? The famous
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Dan Pfeiffer memo.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Famous, infamous. It's hearing, it's sort of, gave me a
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: little bit unfortunate deja vu to hear Biden say those
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: things he was going to do differently because it is
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: part of a well-worn D.C. ritual that whenever a president
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: hits really, really rough political waters, they have to publicly
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: eat shit for the pleasure of the Washington establishment. And
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: it's always the same things. On the shit-eating tasting menu?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: It is. I got to get out of Washington.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Different kinds of shit. Different flavors.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I got to get out of Washington. That's a very
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: important dish on this menu. I'm going to have to
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: get out of my bubble and talk to experts. And
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: to be clear.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Get close to the ground. Got to get close to
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the ground.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Yes. And experts means a very specific thing. It means...
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: People who dine at Cafe Milano in Washington and people
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: who frequent cable news green rooms. Those are experts. We're
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: not talking about get out of your bubble and see
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: real people. Don't fucking talk to any person who works
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: in a diner or is trying to– once it increases
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: minimum wage, you got to talk to different Washington people.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: That's very, very important.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: David Brooks writes a bad column about you. You go
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: talk to David Brooks.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: There I would. Somewhere David Gergen is walking directly from
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the hermetically sealed cryo chamber, which he lives at CNN,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: to the White House for a meeting with Joe Biden
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: It's happening.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: And then the other thing that they want, and there
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: were some questions about this as well, is the Washington
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: establishment wants a blood sacrifice. You've got to fire someone.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: And Joe Biden very wisely resisted that. I don't think
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: he will. He's very loyal. That's a mistake. that it
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: would be a dumb thing to do. Can you bring
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: new people on your team? Can you do things differently? Absolutely.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: But firing someone just so you get better cable news
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: coverage or better political story is a fool's errand. Now,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: if I was writing a memo to Joe Biden, I
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: think I would say the following things. Number one, more
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden. He's got to be out there more. He's
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: got to seem like he's in charge. And one of
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: the reasons for that is The Republicans have, with some success,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: used their huge media apparatus, their sort of mega-megaphone, as
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I like to call it sometimes, to drive this narrative
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: of Joe Biden being, as you said, an observer of events,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: too old, too weak, tired, not up to the huge
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: challenges we have. And people say, well, they did that
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: in the campaign and Joe Biden won. Well, it's because
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: in the campaign, you people saw Joe Biden in high-profile
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: moments seem like a leader. Convention speech, three debates. It
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: was also buttress with a billion dollars in television advertising
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: showing people every time they turn on the TV or
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: open their phone, Joe Biden, not the Fox News caricature
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: of Joe Biden, Joe Biden himself. And you just, it's
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: part of the, both the presidency and a little bit
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: of the sort of the decision making they made early
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: on that they were just going to do the work.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: People see so much less Joe Biden now that he's
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: president than when he was running for president. There aren't
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: a billion dollars in ads. There aren't these high profile
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: moments that everyone tunes into. Number one is Joe Biden.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Number two, less Congress. You're president, not prime minister. I'm
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: not saying don't try to pass what remains of Build
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Back Better or get that China competitiveness bill or notch
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: some wins. I'm just– be less publicly associated with Congress.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Do the negotiations quietly. No more going up to the Senate.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: No more going to Mitch McConnell's office. If we know
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: one thing from this year, it is that making congressional
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: negotiations– and I understand why they made that bet. I
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: understand why they did it. But what we– I think
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: we can say without a shadow of a doubt that
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: making public– making congressional negotiations like sort of a major
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: public spectacle doesn't guarantee success and is hurtful politically. So
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: try to do it quietly.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I think that's right and– You saw this today because
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Biden expressed confidence that pieces of Build Back Better would pass.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: They go to Manchin Thursday morning, ask him about it.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: He starts saying, well, I want to take care of
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: inflation first and debt. We're going to start from scratch.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: And my other offer is not on the table. And
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: then you could see, you know, Manchin always talks to reporters.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Then reporters go to the White House. What do you
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: think about Joe Manchin saying this? And then now you're
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: in the back.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: And they went and they went to be like.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Right. And the White House should be like, we're having negotiations.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: We're having negotiations. We'll let you know when we have
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: something to report. No more predictions.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: No more updates. No more call readouts. Like what they
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: want is one day they're going to call the press
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: into the briefing room. Joe Biden's going to walk in.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: He's going to announce, build back better. We have a deal.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: And they're going to pass it. No more predictions.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Just away from conversations. publicly. And the last thing is
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: focus on the Republicans. Biden started this on January 6th.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Every statement about every issue, particularly on the economy, has
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: to be one part what we've done, one part we
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: want to do, and one part what Republicans will do
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: if they get in charge. We have to begin to
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: drive that narrative and make them own some of the problems.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: And it's not easy. It's hard. It's incredibly hard in
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: a midterm election when you control Congress and the White House,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: but we got to get started now. And I think
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: he started that and we need more and more of that.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I think that's such an important point. I mean, Biden
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: says it all the time himself. We've said it before.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: You're not running against the almighty. You're running against the alternative.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: literally everything he does or says should be framed as
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: a choice because now we are in an election year, right?
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Republicans are in this for their jobs and their own
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: gain and their own rich friends. I'm in it for you.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: They voted against vaccines and treatments and testing. They voted
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: against healthcare. They voted against middle-class tax cuts. They voted
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: against a higher minimum wage. They voted against roads and bridges. Like,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Just continue to remind people of all the things that,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: like you said, that they have done and will do,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: which right now we don't know because they don't have
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: an agenda. Mitch McConnell basically said, fuck it, I'll tell
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: you my agenda after you elect us, which seems like
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: it's something we should remind people that he said over
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: and over again. And then I think you should point
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: out their extremism wherever possible, right? There's some of these
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: fucking candidates running for office on the Republican side, most
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: of them running for office on the Republican side who
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: were way, way, way outside of the mainstream. who will
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: be like beloved by the MAGA base, but not the
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: rest of the voters they need to actually win some
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: of these races. So you should point that out too.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I think I would add two more things to your list.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Like he's got to have another, he's got to have
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: not just a message, but a new strategy on COVID.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: No more COVID, no more COVID restrictions, no more COVID inflation. Again,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: I said this before, like COVID may be part of
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: our lives. It will no longer control our lives. We
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: now have all the tools we need, fight this virus, vaccines, treatments,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: and there's another wave or variant. We're going to be ready.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: We'll have temporary restrictions. We'll have metrics to know when
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: to drop those restrictions. Other than that, go live your lives, right?
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: And I think this should be a big part of
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: the message in the State of the Union in early March.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Hopefully by then, you'll have the vaccines for under fives.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: We'll be out of the Omicron wave. We'll be ramping
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: up production of the COVID treatments. But like people, want
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: to get back to normal and they want to know
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the government is doing everything possible to make sure that
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: they can live their lives. They don't expect Joe Biden
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: to say like, I promise there will never be another
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: variant again. They don't expect that, but they expect him
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: to be like, this is the way that you're going
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: to be able to live your life normally. They do
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: expect that and he should lay that out. And then
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: I think part of that, the next, you know, the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: final thing I'd say is the economy, right? Like, and
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: the inflation problems are stemming from the pandemic, but like,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: everyone is most concerned about the economy. Not just like
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: swing voters, not former Trump voters, not independents, everyone. It
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: is the number one issue for black voters, for young voters,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: for women, for every demographic group. It's the number one issue.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: So he should be out there talking about it every
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: fucking day. Everyone is, people are concerned about inflation. They
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: have not been brainwashed by the media. They are actually concerned.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: And I think he should be out there saying like,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: I'll fight every day. to bring prices down, to help
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: people pay for their gas and groceries. I'll use my
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: power to pressure CEOs. I'll call Republicans out to keep
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: voting against cutting costs for families. I'll take executive actions.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: The court wants to strike them down. Go for it.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: You know, like every single lever he can pull to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: help bring prices down and to let people know that
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: he's fighting to bring prices down, he should do. And
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: it should be an everyday thing. And look, you already
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: see them doing this. They've done some events on inflation
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of the year. He's been talking about
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: some of the supply chain fixes they've been doing. But
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: it's something that you've got to you know how messages are,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: like you've got to fucking hammer it every single day
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: that you can so that anytime anyone sees Joe Biden,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: they see that he's talking about getting the country back
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: to normal, getting us over the pandemic and making sure
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: the prices come down.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: This is, as you and I know, one of those
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: very weird times in the White House, which is you're back,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: everyone's paying attention. It's your one year anniversary, but everyone
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: is working towards the State of the Union. And there's
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of cards you're waiting to play on
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: the biggest stage. And so it's like this weird uh,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: treading water phase, uh, where you're, see, you're testing some
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: things out, you're doing stuff, but like the real moment
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: when you turn the corner on these things, you do
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: lay out the new COVID strategy, you lay out this
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: economic message is going to be in the, in the
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: state of the union. Yeah.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: And that's March 1st. And part of the reason you
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: do these things is look, does the president have, you know,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: limited tools that he can use to bring down inflation
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: in the short term? Yes, of course. But as the
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: pandemic recedes, um, and things start to get better, you
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: want to be out in front of that parade, right?
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: You're like, it's already happening, right? Like, you know, after
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: the Omicron wave, things are going to start feeling better.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Hopefully supply chain issues start easing. Inflation eventually starts easing.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: And you want to make sure that voters give you
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: credit for fighting hard to make sure those things are better.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: And that's why I think like, you know, you gotta,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: you know, I saw some reporting that they're like, our
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: COVID strategy for next year is the same as it
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: was this year. And I get why they're doing that
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: because they believe they have all the tools necessary. But
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: you need a turn, right? You need to like let
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: people know we are headed into a new phase. And
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I do think the State of the Union is, you know, again,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: that's not going to fix all your problems. Again, it's
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: the State of the Union. So it's going to be
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: very long. There's going to be a tons of issues.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: And there's going to be Democrats standing up and clapping
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: and Republicans sitting on their asses, not clapping and blah, blah, blah.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: But it is a rare opportunity where you get to
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: speak to the whole country or at least speak to
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: the millions of people who tune in. And you're going
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: to want to use it to both sort of like
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: mark that this is a new phase in the presidency
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: and to let people know that you're fighting like hell
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: for them when the other side is just fighting for
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: their own jobs. Anything else you do in the State
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: of the Union?
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: No, I think all that's right. I think the State
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: of the Union is a launching pad. We tend to
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: think of it in the old way of it is
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: a speech as if the entire nation tunes in. The
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: entire nation does not tune in anymore. So it is
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: a run-up to it. It is a speech. And then
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: it is what happens afterwards. It is– it's obviously a
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: very– it will be the most watched thing Biden does
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: all year. But it's also the organizing principle for the
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: entire year. It's how you get the entire government to
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: come up with new policy ideas, come up with plans,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: to come up with timelines. And so it's really important.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: I think the– The only other thing I would add
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: to all of this is you sort of understanding the
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: limits of what the president can do is you need
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: a metric of success, not just for Biden, but for
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: all Democrats to think, are we moving the needle with
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: our messaging? And a number that I would look at
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: in polling is whether people think we're focused enough on
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: the economy, right, or the economy and inflation. And that
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: number is well below where it should be right now
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: for the entire party. And how can we, like, are
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: we moving that over time with what we're saying and
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: how often we're saying and the paid advertising that's supplementing that?
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: And if it's not, then we are in big trouble
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: and we got to change strategies. So you always need like,
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: we can't just like, here's what we're going to do
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: and we're going to see how it works on election day, right?
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: You need, because I don't think you're going to change
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: people's approval of the economy, but they can change whether
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: they think you're doing, you're fighting for them on the
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: issue they care most about.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: That's the key. That's the key. Okay. When we come back, Dan,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: we'll talk to Run for Something's Amanda Lippman about local
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: races in 2022.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Now that voting rights legislation has run aground in the
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: United States Senate, here to help us figure out how
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: to save democracy is the co-founder of Run for Something,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Amanda Littman. Amanda, welcome back to Pod Save America.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: Hi, Dan. Always good to be here.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: I want to start with just your reaction to what
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: happened last night.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Infuriating, predictable, disappointing. I mean, it It is so mad,
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: infuriating that it was so predictable. It was so disappointing.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: It was all of those things. And I think it
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: really cemented that we cannot count on Congress to save
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: us and we cannot count on federal legislation to come
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: through when it comes to protecting democracy. So while I
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: am so mad I'm seeing red, I am also very
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: sort of in some ways a little bit grateful for
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: that clarification of who we can and can't rely on
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: and what the next steps are.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about that because you– when there was
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of despair, a lot of cursing of various
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: centrist senators on Twitter last night, you took the time
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: to put together a thread to try to give people
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: a little bit of hope. So help explain to everyone
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: the role Congress plays. I think as you point out,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: everyone has assumed the only way we were going to
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: fight back was through Congress and what other levers we
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: have to pull as a Democratic Party or a progressive wing.
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: So it's worth zooming out a moment. We do not
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: have one national election. We have 50 state elections. Then
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: we have about 3000-ish county elections. And then we have
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: thousands and thousands more town and city and municipality elections.
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: And each of those are governed by, in some places,
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: the same laws, but in some places, very different laws.
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: And even within a state, you can have the, for example,
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: Pennsylvania elections that are governed by the state legislature, by
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: the counties, and then also by the cities. When you
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: think about the number of elected offices in the United States, which,
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: as I've said many times over, there are more than
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: half a million of them, most of them are not
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: in Congress. Most of them are not federal. They are
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: things like school board and city council and state legislature.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: And many, many, many of those positions touch election. administration
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: One of the things the Republican Party, and especially the
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: worst parts of the Republican Party, although they're all pretty
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: bad at this point, but Steve Bannon, QAnon, Proud Boys,
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: Oath Keepers, and the like are investing a bunch of
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: time and money into is recruiting people to oversee elections,
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: whether that's as secretaries of state, which we know there
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: are at least 15 sort of big lie propagators running
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: for secretary of state, to things like City clerk, county
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: recorder of deeds, election judge. Steve Bannon goes on his
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: podcast every week and talks about how every one of
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: his listeners should run for these positions. Trump went in
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: front of a group of Republicans in Pennsylvania via video
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: and said he's more invested in the supervisors of elections,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: the people that count the ballots, than the ones who
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: are on the ballot. All of that's to say that
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: these are really critical positions for determining how these laws
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: get implemented. And what actually happens on the ground? You know,
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: how easy is it for people to register? How well
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: funded are these offices? How many different languages are they
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: printing materials in? How late and how often are polling
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: places open and how well are they staffed? The experience
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: that a voter has is really determined by the person
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: administering that election. Now, it is very complicated. There are
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: something like 2,000 positions on the ballot in 2022 that
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: touch election administration. There's another 1,000 in 2023, and then
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: anywhere from 4,000 to 5,000, depending on how you define it,
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: in 2024. And that includes even some positions that then
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: appoint the person who actually runs the position. Now, it's very,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: very messy. which can make it seem like an impossible
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: problem to solve. But the fact is because it breaks
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: down into such small pieces, it's very easy. We need
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: to find as many pro-democracy people as possible to run
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: for these offices. And we need to do it in
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: as many places as possible, in as many ways as possible.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: We need to do it in an effort that has
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: never before been seen because this is the last bulwark.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: The 2024 election subversion, I hope it doesn't include another
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: violent mob storming the Capitol, but it might. More likely.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: But it may not need it, which is the problem.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: It may not need it. More likely it's going to
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: be one county canvassing board in Michigan that refuses to
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: certify the votes. Or a town clerk in Wisconsin that
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: decides they're just going to randomly close a bunch of
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: polling places because they feel like it. Or a wave
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: of red ballots. city and county clerks or county recorders
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: of deeds across a couple states that just undermine faith
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: in the system. It is so important that at this
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: critical part of the institutions, we are shoring it up
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: with good leadership.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: And so you talk about the focus Republicans have on this.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Steve Bannon talks about it. Trump talks about it. You
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: pointed out on Twitter a report the other day that
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: the campaign organization responsible for electing Republican secretaries of state
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: raised $ 33 million last year. And the Democratic Association Secretary
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: of State, the Democratic counterpart, raised $ 1 million in the
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: first half of 2021. So two questions to that. One,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: why do you think Democrats aren't more focused on this
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: to date? And do you think that focus has has
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: improved or have you seen additional intensity as it became
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: more clear in the recent days and weeks as that
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: voting rights was not going to succeed at the Senate level?
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: Well, I think historically Democrats have had a problem as
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: a party with investing in infrastructure, investing in the boring stuff,
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: investing in the things that aren't so flashy, that don't
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: make for good viral videos, that don't get you invited
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: to a cocktail party, but that do meaningfully build power.
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: And we've known this for at least a decade or
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: more now. I mean, this is why we're in this
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: mess with state legislatures in particular, in that the Republican
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: Party invested $ 100 million into state legislative races ahead of
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: the 2009-2010 elections, and then were able to redraw their
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: maps so they could control Congress. We are getting to
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: a place where the Democratic Party and especially the funding
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: base is getting better. It's improving, but it is really,
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: really hard. I have tried. I have tried really hard
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: to make like a catchy video that will go viral
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: about local election administrators. Like it's complicated and it's difficult
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: both to talk about and also to do, which is
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: why a lot of places don't touch these races. But
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: I think we are seeing some momentum there. I will
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: say so far, January 2022 is Run for Something's best
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: recruitment month yet. We've seen thousands and thousands of people
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: sign up to Run for Office and thousands more chip
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: in to help us recruit them. So I am cautiously
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: optimistic that the tides are turning, but you know what
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: they say about making plans.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: That's right. I'm very excited to hear you say that
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: this was Run for Something's best month to date because
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: I've always sort of viewed run for something as a
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: bit of a barometer of the enthusiasm of the base post-Trump, right? Pre-Trump,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: we're just not running candidates anywhere. We're not recruiting candidates.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: We're not investing local races. 2016 happens. You start run
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: for something. We have this wave of people, right? Someone
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: have run in on everywhere in Virginia in that 2017 election, everywhere.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: And the thing I've worried about is the first place
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: where you would see the tides recede would be here
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: because this is the hard stuff. Like you said, it's
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: not the exciting stuff. And so is, was 2021 a
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: tough year and it's sort of changing as, as maybe
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: people are thinking or as, or as have you seen, uh,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: you know, good, you know, have you seen a continued
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: level of engagement among democratic activists who sort of got
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: into politics because of Trump post Trump?
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: So we thought that 2021 would be a little slower.
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: Like we built our program, assuming it'd be a little slower.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: Then the insurrection happened. Well, and before that, winning Georgia happened.
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: And people showed up. 2021 was our best recruitment year yet.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: And 2022 is on pace to exceed it. And I
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: think it's important to know why. One is that the
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: pandemic and the uprising of the summer before really indicated
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: how important local government is, you know, especially conversations around
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: school boards and city councils and the way that they're
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: making decisions around keeping places closed or open and what
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: our kids are learning, you know, All of that is
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: locally determined. But I also think running for office post-Trump
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: was never really about Trump. And we did a study here.
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: We found that only 3% of the people who signed
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: up with us mentioned Trump in their intake survey. He
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: was like the water folks were swimming in, but he
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: wasn't the bait. The bait was wanting to make a change.
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: The bait was being furious that their streets were not
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: paved well or that their state legislature wasn't passing criminal
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: justice reform. The bait was seeing out of touch... disconnected
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: leaders who weren't engaging with their communities, weren't showing up
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: at meetings, weren't holding town halls. And I think especially
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: for young people who run for something primarily works with
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: candidates 40 and younger, it is about seeing that enough
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: is enough with the status quo. So I am just
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: so pumped that this year has been better than the last.
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: And it makes me really stressed because our team is
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: already so tired.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: And so for people who are listening to this who
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: are inspired by what you're saying, scared about what's coming
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: in the country and want to do something. But running
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: for office seems like a big step, right? In a
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: really tough– it's a tough political environment and we're talking
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: about– on the other side, it's Steve Bannon and QAnon
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: and Proud Boys. What would your message to people be
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: who are thinking about it but very nervous about the
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: prospect of putting themselves out there so much to run?
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: I'd say it's never too early to just start a conversation.
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: If you go to runforwhat.net, you can enter your information.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: You can find the offices available for you in 2022.
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: You'll also start getting materials just to think about how
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: do you plan a campaign? What do you need? But
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: I would also really encourage you to start volunteering locally.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: It's going to be really tempting this year and really
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: important to go knock doors and make calls for our
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: Senate candidates and our congressional candidates and the like. And yeah,
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: you should do that too. But when you have your
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: very precious free time, go knock doors for a city
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: council race or a city clerk race or a school
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: board race in your community or the community an hour over.
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: Keep it local. That will really allow you to understand
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: what goes into a campaign. You'll get to know the
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: candidate too, which is really fun. And when you win
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: or even if you lose, it'll feel really personal. You'll
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: get to live the results of that. And I think
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: it's the best way to get a good sense of
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: what you're in for if you decide to do this.
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: And the benefit is that working on local campaigns trickles up.
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: The organizing that you do locally, the doors that you knock,
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: the calls that you make will all help the top
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: of the ticket. And we've got some really important top
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: of ticket races this year, congressional, gubernatorial, secretaries of state,
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: Senate races and the like. And the places where those
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: campaigns are going to be organizing might not include where
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: you live. But the votes that you turn out for
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: Democrats will make a difference for them.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: That is a phenomenon known as reverse coattails, correct?
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: Correct.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: And you guys have done some studies on reverse coattails
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: that speak to the impact of it. Can you just
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: give people a little insight into that? Yes.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: And we have done this study twice now because people
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: didn't believe us the first time that happened. We found
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: that simply contesting state legislative races in districts that were
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: previously uncontested, meaning there was only a Republican on the ballot,
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: when you just put a Democrat on there and have
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: them run a campaign, it increases turnout from anywhere to
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: half percent to 1.5 percent for the Democrat. Now, those
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: are small margins, but most of those are margins at
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: the top of the ticket wins by, especially in a
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: state like Georgia or North Carolina or Wisconsin. These are very,
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: very tight races. Sometimes what the local candidate is trying
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: to do is lose by less margin. And that can
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: feel like a weird goal to have. But it's really
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: meaningful because even just running up the score and moving
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: a district from 70-30 red to 60-40, it helps. And
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: it also builds power for the next time around.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: So for someone who is listening here who either wants
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: to run for office or wants to help you recruit
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: and treat people to run for these offices to save democracy,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: where can they go and how can.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: They help you?
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: Go to runforsomething.net. You can learn more about running for office.
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: You can make a donation. We are going to have
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: to field thousands of candidates this year. So every single
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: dollar is going to go a long way. It is
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: more money than we've ever needed and more money than
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: we've ever spent. And I'm very excited and anxious about
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: it in equal parts because I think the impact is
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: potentially huge. We are at a crisis for our democracy
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: that requires an equal opportunity. and an opposite force to
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: protect it. So that's what Remember Something's trying to be
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: this year. We're trying to protect democracy by winning small
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: in as many places as we can so that we
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: can fight the big fights together.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Amanda Lipman, thank you so much for being on Positive American.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Thanks for everything you're doing.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: Thanks, Dan.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: All right, before we go, some deeply enjoyable news for
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: your weekend. The law may be catching up with Donald Trump.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: In a 160-page court filing, New York Attorney General Letitia
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: James revealed that her civil investigation into the Trump organization
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: is based on evidence of, quote, fraudulent and misleading business practices,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: namely misrepresenting the value of its properties and assets for
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: economic benefit, which would be wild because the Donald Trump
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: we know is just, he's not a corrupt cheater.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Crazy.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Crazy. The filing was in response to Trump's efforts to
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: stop the civil investigation, stop the attorney general from participating
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: in the parallel criminal investigation, and avoid subpoenas that ask
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: for testimony from the former president, Donald Trump Jr., and
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Ivanka Trump. Apparently, Eric Trump already testified and took the
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: fifth in response to more than 500 questions.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Which is also what he did on the SATs.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: But wait, there's more. Just a few days after Trump's
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: lawyers dismissed James's investigation as a politically motivated partisan witch hunt,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Trump's politically motivated partisan Supreme Court gave him some trouble
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: as well. With only Clarence Thomas dissenting, the other seven
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: justices denied Trump's request to block the release of White
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: House records relating to the January 6th attack on Congress,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: records that are now, thanks to the court's order, in
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: the hands of the 1-6 Committee. Oh, one more that
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: just broke today. Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Williams is
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: requesting a special grand jury to assist her investigation into
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: whether to bring criminal charges against Donald Trump and his
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: goons for pressuring Georgia officials to overturn the election, a
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: decision she is expected to make in the first half
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: of this year. Dan, is this it? Did we get him?
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: I am currently lighting my Robert Mueller votive candles as
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: we speak.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Getting him out of my closet, lining him up on
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: my office desk. Just waiting for the impeachment eagle and
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: the Supreme Court marshal to come take him away.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Got it.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: How much potential legal trouble is Trump facing here?
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: Seems like a lot to me. It's like you never,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: in general, you don't want to be under criminal investigation
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: for one crime. You don't want to be under criminal
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: investigation for three crimes in three different jurisdictions at the
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: same time. That seems bad.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: And you definitely don't want the Supreme Court, of which
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: you've appointed two very right-wing justices, to rule against you
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: when you're trying to hide records from the January 6th committee.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Three justices? Three. Oh, I'm sorry. Three justices. You know
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: what's funny is I always focus so much on Kavanaugh
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: and Barrett, I always forget that fucking we got Gorsuch
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: from him, too.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: The maskless wonder. Ugh.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Three justices. Anyway, yeah, so it seems like he could
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: have some trouble. There's two criminal investigations, a civil investigation
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: and an ongoing bipartisan congressional investigation. How big of a
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: deal is that Supreme Court ruling on the 1-6 stuff,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: It seems like a big deal. It's important because the
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Republicans are in this strategy with the witnesses to delay testifying,
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: to try to drag this out as long as possible,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: to making it so the Democrats cannot finish the investigation.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: investigation do their report until after the election where they
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: may not have the power to do so. So getting
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: firsthand notes from Trump and his documents is hugely important.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: It will allow them to make the case on things
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: that they won't be able to do pre-testimony. If they
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: are able to depose some of these key witnesses who
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: have as of yet been unwilling to cooperate, then you
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: will have these documents as a way to frame those
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: conversations and make those interviews as worthwhile as possible. I
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: think it's an absolutely important thing.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Also, it seems like if the Supreme Court is saying
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: that you can't exert executive privilege over the documents as
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: a former president, I don't know what would shield you
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: from testifying.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the only thing they have on their side is time. Right.
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: So Maggie Haberman responded to the Tish James filing by tweeting,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Any question of whether Trump runs seem to have been
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: answered this morning. His aides have always signaled. that if
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: the investigations progressed, that he would run for president again.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: What do you think of that?
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: Well, per usual, the reaction to it was a little disproportionate.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: You people got to calm down with the Maggie Haberman tweets.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Anything she tweets now, it's like, did Trump tell you
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: to write that?
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: She is telling you what Trump's aides told her.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: You know what that is? That's reporting. That's Maggie's job.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: She's supposed to report things. If you have problems with
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: the reporting, if you disagree with the reporting, that's fair.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: But she's just reporting.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: You're yelling at the weatherman, people. It's not his fault
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: it's raining. I mean, when you say the thing that
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Trump people are telling Maggie out loud, it sounds so
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: fucking stupid. It's hard to imagine. Look, Donald Trump was
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: not going to run. He was happy with his life,
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: just living a Mar-a-Lago, conducting illegal SPACs for a fake
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: media company. And then Letitia James stepped up. And I'm
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: going to show her by running for president this thing
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: I was definitely not going to do otherwise. Like, it
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: sounds idiotic. But there is one important thing to note,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: which is Maybe we've sort of memory holes some of
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: our real deep dive legal discussions from the 2017, 2018 era.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: But if you remember, there was an Office of Legal
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: Counsel memo that says that sitting presidents cannot be indicted
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: because it was the founder's intention that the impeachment proceedings
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: would be the proper forum for adjudicating presidential crimes and misdemeanors.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: And Donald Trump knows that Could a jury in Manhattan
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: convict him?
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Could a jury in Fulton County convict him?
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: Will the United States Senate ever deliver 66 votes to
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: remove Donald Trump? Absolutely not. It is basically like moving
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: to legislative Amsterdam. There are no crimes for Republicans in
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: the Senate. So he is fine.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Now, I thought about all this news and I was like,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, we joked about bringing back our Mueller bobblehead dolls,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: but like, I don't think people should view this as, okay,
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: these investigations are going to save us from another term
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: of Donald Trump. As we found out before, like, even
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: if he is indicted, he can still run for office.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: People should know. He might even be able to run
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: for office if he's in jail, but I don't know.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: But if he's indicted, he certainly can. I do think
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: They could be used as part of a story about
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump should he run again, which is he's a loser,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: he's a cheater, he's a scam artist who's running again
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: to avoid jail time and bankruptcy. Right.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: That's also just chaos.
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. People are fucking sick.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: This is what we want. This is what you want.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Life to return back to normal, which is what people
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: want right now, which is part of the reason they're
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: upset with Joe Biden. They just wanted life to return
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: back to normal after Trump. And that's what they thought
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: they were going to get. And now you want this
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: fucking jackass with all of his indictments and investigations following him.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: It's just it. Yeah. It serves to remind people of
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: the drama around Trump. Again, we're not talking about the
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: MAGA base. We're not talking about his supporters. They all
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: love it, but they are not enough to win an election.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: He still needs to win over a lot of those
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: sort of middle-of-the-road swing voters that he has won before.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: And those people, they might be targets for a message
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: campaign about why Donald Trump is just too much drama
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: for 2024.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: On the Tuesday pod, when you guys talked about the
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis-Donald Trump feud- Something I've never been more jealous.
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: What did we do last Thursday? A minute by minute
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: breakdown of Kirsten Sinema's defense of the filibuster. What do
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: you guys do? Two assholes fighting. Yay.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: What are we going to do this Thursday?
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Voting rights fail that Joe Biden gave a two-hour press conference.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: I'm sure with my luck, Eric Trump will be indicted
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: for a crime on Sunday, so you guys can talk
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: about it Monday evening.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: Dan, you're going to pull a good news cycle eventually.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: I know, eventually. But the serious part of that is
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: in that conversation, you guys quoted some Trump advisors from a,
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: lo and behold, a Maggie Haberman story about that feud.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: About how the Trump advisors sort of said the chaos
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: and drama around Trump was one of their biggest concerns
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: about him. And this is a bunch more chaos. And
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: this report will come out theoretically around the time Donald
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Trump's going to have to– the January 6th report. Around
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: the time Donald Trump's going to have to start be
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: seriously making decisions about whether he's going to run.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: So stay tuned. Well, look, I tweeted yesterday towards the
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: end of the press conference, I could have done without
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: the last 30 minutes or so. And someone on Twitter
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: replied to me, that's how I feel when it goes
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: past the first hour of a Pod Save America episode.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: So I am going to leave it there.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: It's a fair point.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: It's a fair point. It was a great retort. That's
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: the kind of Twitter retort I can get behind. Everyone
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: have a great weekend. And thanks again to Amanda Littman
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: for joining us. Everyone go donate to run for something.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Make you feel better about yourselves this weekend. And we'll
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: see you next week.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Our producer is Haley Muse. And Olivia Martinez is our
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Sandy Gerrard,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: Hallie Kiefer, Madison Holman, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: and Amelia Montooth. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: slash crooked media.