Latest / The Business Case - with Mark Wharrier and Phil Clark / S2 - Episode 13: The Business Case: Interview with John Carey, CEO of The Mission Group

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S2 - Episode 13: The Business Case: Interview with John Carey, CEO of The Mission Group · The Business Case - with Mark Wharrier and Phil Clark

• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the business case in partnership with the Leading Investor Presentation Hub Engage Investor.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is the podcast where we dive deep into the stories behind the UK's leading companies.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Mark Morrier.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Phil Clark.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And in each episode, we'll be sitting down with top business leaders to uncover their career journeys, the challenges they faced, and the insights that have shaped their success.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have spent our careers analyzing and investing in UK companies, meeting managements to understand the business case.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And now we want to share those insights with you.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: We will hear about the companies our guests lead and how they are positioned for the future.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: But we also want to find out what makes these business leaders tick, the highs and the lows that they have experienced, and the lessons of management that might apply to your life.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Please remember that this podcast is not investment advice and is for informational and educational purposes only.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is a really interesting uh conversation with John Kerry of Mission Group, um, which is a collection of media agencies.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And on the on the surface, uh, this is a tough industry given all the technological, digital, AI changes taking place, and Mission has gone through its own journey of restructuring and simplification.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but lots of interesting comments here, both on how John has achieved that and also where the longer-term potential is within an industry that uh really touches all of our lives.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, hope you enjoy it.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, today we're delighted to be joined uh by John Carey, Chief Executive of Mission Group, a collection of specialist agencies working across creative, sport, and marketing technology.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: The group brings together expertise in areas such as brand, digital, communications, sponsorship, events, and customer engagement.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been a busy year for Mission Group.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: It has simplified its agency structure and focused investment behind fewer-scale businesses and reduced costs.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now the ambition is to turn that restructuring into sustainable growth in an industry where there are both challenges and opportunities.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: John, welcome to the Business Case Podcast.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for having me.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for listeners unfamiliar with Mission Group, um, could you perhaps just go into a bit more detail about what the agency does and perhaps what the proposition for clients and really what you've been up to over the last year or so?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'll try.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's a it's a it's a big agenda, but as you said, it's a it's a group of specialist businesses, um, each delivering you know, marketing communications, digital solutions, but but really solutions uh for their clients.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we've broken it down now into three real market leading brands that are quite diverse, and then two ancillary uh brands as well.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the three brands are really focused on uh the agency, the integrated advertising agency called Brayleno.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we then have a sports and events business called Mongoose, and we have a property digital advertising business uh called uh ThinkBDW.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the three big pillars of mission.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but I don't also want to ignore we have a strong PR business in Speed, which is based out of Bristol, and then we also have a smaller uh healthcare business called Solaris.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: But the three real pillars uh for you know are, as I said, uh the advertising uh marketing agency, uh the sports and the property side.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And what we really did over the last uh 15 months uh has been to actually focus uh and develop uh a proposition and a clarity around uh what the businesses are and what they stand for.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And they're different.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, there's lots to unpack there, but let's just step back for a second.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you joined um, as you said, September 2025.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: What what uh what attracted you uh to Mission and perhaps what what did you see that perhaps the market was missing?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know I've come kind of come from the other side of the table, running businesses and global businesses for the last 30 years.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, what what I saw in Mission, and I've I've worked with a number of the agencies in Mission over my career, for right back through to my first CEO job in 1992 in Simon Eyes, and with and and Dray Lena were our agency at that stage.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and what I saw in them, um what I saw in the market was a need for a solutions-based organization.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I've worked with consultancies, I've I've I've sat on boards in consultancies, etc.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and really as a CEO, what you need is a partner that understands your problem, and then a partner that can develop and deliver that solution, not just for the board, but for the front line.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I see is, you know, with the big consultancies, I think they're fantastic at bringing great thinking at the board level, but then their knowledge and and and their implementation at the front line level is lacking.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly, I found out when I was running the different businesses I ran.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: What mission has, um, and it hasn't exploited it yet to its full extent, is the knowledge at the front line, the knowledge of how to deliver, but also the knowledge of the business.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: If we take Bray Leno, for example, over 50% of Bray Leno's clients have been with them for over five years.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: 20% have been with them for 20 years plus.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not about coming up with new adverts, that's coming up with solutions and knowing people's businesses.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm a real believer that it's about culture more than strategy.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Strategy is frankly the easy bit.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: How do you implement that strategy?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that's what mission can do and does, whether it's at the sports and events side, whether it's on the property side, or actually whether it's the Braino.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like fundamentally strong business when you arrived, and you know, Staff Turner's kind of the ultimate indicator of that.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: But some things did need to change.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what what did you focus on?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: We had grown through acquisition um and and a lot of small acquisitions.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what we had allowed to happen is for those acquisitions to do their own thing without a real clear sense of prioritization and value add.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you look at the mission group today, the individual parts of the business I think bring a lot more value than the whole of the mission group does.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's how do we unpack that?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: How do we simplify the business?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And by that it's not just taking cost out, but cost is an important part of that.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: But how do we simplify it to make decisions quicker, to have less layers in the business, to actually act with the client quicker?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do we simplify it?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: How do we prioritize then?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you have 10, 12 acquisitions doing their own thing, you don't necessarily have your best people doing the biggest pieces of business.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: You you have pockets of excellence rather than a business of excellence.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we've pulled that together.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think the other important point though for us was be clear what does mission do?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: What is mission?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: The heroes for me are the CEOs of the five businesses that we have.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: But the mission is an enabler for them to succeed.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: It is not something that needs to sit and have a huge infrastructure on its own.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting you you came into the role as a kind of a customer of marketing businesses.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that you've changed your mind about the marketing industry having sort of made that transition?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I think my point about needing a voice at the table.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I I think, and I can say this as an ex-CEO of companies, which is you don't always know the problem you're trying to solve.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a really important lesson uh within mission that the knowledge they have can add huge value to that conversation, and they're not very often in that conversation.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so getting us into that conversation, through our own people or through external people, has been an important lesson and change in mindset for me of actually rather than going to the big five consultancies, etc., actually you have knowledge and experience that's sitting there that you can do it.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people talk about this market as a market that's declining and and or shrinking.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: And my answer is you show me any CEO in the world who will tell you uh that they have more problems to solve today than they had last year, and they anticipate they'll have more.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: By us positioning ourselves and we're trying to help you solve your problems, um, it's it's critical.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other point that we have not changed our mind about, but but really focusing on is we do not want to be a company with a solution in search of a problem.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: We need to understand, and there's very many of those out there, uh, and and you know, I'm sure we've fallen into the trap at times, but actually understanding the problem before you come up with a solution is really critical.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's uh let's turn on to the the the model and why why, from your perspective, John, you think you know you think mission is able to win.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the proposition rests on specialist agency expertise, sector knowledge, the ability to combine capabilities across the business into a solution, as you were just saying to Mark there.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you've recently restructured bringing B2B and B2C advertising together under Bray Leno.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: You've got your events business integrated into Mongoose.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about your proposition that a client why a client should choose mission over you know appointing as several several independent agencies rather than you know the one group?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: What what what's the what's the pros and cons?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I think first and foremost um we win business through the individual businesses.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I think the add-on comes as a value add.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's not oh just you know, just bundle it together and we'll do it cheaper.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: So typically a client will be coming into one of the businesses and then the opportunity.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then we will use the experience and the knowledge.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, you know, a Bray Lano client, a B2B business client, you know, certainly would have an events organization, certainly would look at sports management, certainly would look at that area.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so we would do it, but it's not a force fit.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really important.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, we can very comfortably have you know a sports uh client that isn't a Bray Leno client, right, and that is a competitors client.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it it's only you know, we don't want to make up solutions.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: We if we're not the best person place for it, we shouldn't be doing it.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: U and in in terms of revenue visibility, yeah.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You you were saying to Mark earlier there that um good percentage of your clients have been with you for a long time.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I would assume those are you know on a retained basis.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So how how how should we think about the sort of the balance between recurring work, visibility of revenue stream versus sort of one of projects bespoke work?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and how how does that change?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say those clients aren't necessarily on retained stuff.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: I I think you know, for me, retainers is a it is is at the lower end of.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, you have to be doing projects, you have to be delivering value.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I would say the majority of our clients today, you know, if it's a retainer, but it it the retainer is just to do the basic work, uh, but there's always an add-on to it.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just on its own.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think more and more clients are looking at project-based work.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and that's right, you know, people have, you know, it's a pretty dynamic market at the moment, strategically and operationally.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, what we don't want is any of our clients thinking, oh my gosh, we're spending X money, money much money with this client.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: What work can we give them?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is the solution in search of a problem again.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, what we want is every one of our clients to know we're solving the issues that they're facing.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And has that changed structurally compared to five years ago?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it definitely you know, five, ten years ago, and I wasn't around then, but you know, I think certainly there was more of the retainer side, you know, people went in on you know, on all of our clients.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think now, you know, across the whole market, people are saying, actually, you know, I don't know how much I'm going to be doing next year.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: So to commit to this, and I think also, you know, from my perspective, I think that the sign of a real relationship and a real partnership is the ability to say no rather than to say yes.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, if you're a retained person, it's assuming you are always the one who knows the best solution.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want us to be that type of company.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, to have clients that are 10, 15 years, you need to have that relationship that says, we're trying to solve your problem, you know, and that includes understanding what others can do as well.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And in terms of sort of retention of you know, the best creative people, the best commercial people, um, you know, how do you reduce the risk of key individuals leaving?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think agency work has always been quite relationship oriented, it's people orientated.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you how do you ensure sort of load staff turnover from your perspective to kind of avoid clients walking out the door with with talent?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's about culture in the business a lot, isn't it?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's about do you have the right behaviours?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, values are are easy.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody has the values.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's are we have we got the right behaviors?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Do we treat our people well?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Are we a great place to work?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Are we developing people um or or do people feel threatened?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, in in the current market, whether it's AI, whether it is cost reduction, whether it is globalization or retraction from globalization, you know, everybody is is is concerned or looking over the shoulder.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we want is an organization that is not just simplified and prioritized, it's growing.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, what we've done recently is opened our offices in the in the US, etc.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's about how do we grow and how do we make sure that people see that growth level in the business.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And in terms of uh to completely agree with that, in terms of sort of KPIs, metrics, um, milestones, how what what should investors be thinking about looking for over the next or or you internally, over the next sort of six, twelve, twenty-four months in terms of that cross-sell, that kind of client solution outcome being delivered?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: What what what are some of the how should they be benchmarking you measuring on?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, as investors and and looking at it, my first job in my mind when I came in was to create um an organization that had credibility, that that that that that frankly underpromised and over-delivered, and that isn't something we have done in the past, to be very honest about it, and and to actually lay out with our clients look, this is what we're trying to do in terms of simplification, in terms of growth, in terms of cash flow, um, and and have the honest conversation with the investors every six months to say that's gone well, but also that's not gone well.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and and and and I think you know, the last 15 months has been very much within the organization around doing that.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other piece is from an investor perspective, to look at each of the businesses and to say, actually, when I add all of this up, this looks a phenomenally strong organization.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it there's not this um, you know, uh mystique around mission.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually I understand what mission is about, what it's trying to do.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: And practically, it's it's about delivering our plan for this year, which is a very ambitious plan.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's over 50% growth on last year.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's delivering that, it's dealing with the debt.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's talking and giving growth options for the business, but it's also having an honest conversation with investors as we go on what the portfolio will look like and to be dynamic about that.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: But would it be would it be right to would my assumption be right that actually the cross-sell i is gonna be the critical unlock?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because you sort of said at the beginning, you know, there's more value that sit in the some of the in the individual parts than in the group.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So is is the cross-sell the unlock or not?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't, I mean, I see it as an as an advantage and a positive, yeah, but but actually I think allowing each of the businesses to flourish and to not be um restrained and be clear about what the strategy is.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: So each of our businesses, the three businesses, you know, Breleno is it is about effectiveness, efficiency, um, improving its margin, and you know, the cost reduction simplification have come out of Breleno and then growing from there.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas Mongoose and Events is a growth engine.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's a huge growth engine.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And property is a is a resilient business that grows with the market.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: So each of them have a very different role.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, together we can we can we can manage it and work across it.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you know, I think the first task is to maximize the value of each of the different parts.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Understood.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we'll we'll come back to um the growth initiatives there and um kind of the longer-term approach.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess the last 15 months has been about simplification and efficiency, dealing with the balance sheet as you talked about.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So so that that just talk us through the agency simplification where you know Bray Leno is is has been the focus.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh what how did you prioritize that?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what were the issue efficiencies you made, and I suppose how is that making the business more effective on a day-to-day basis?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we had originally 10, 12 different brands that were very regionally based with lots of locations.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, when we went out into the market, people didn't know if you were talking uh, you know, who, you know, of Crow versus Breleno versus and part of that as well, because you had senior management running each of the businesses, you had quite and with lots of challenges, by the way.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: The level of time to actually look over across the piece prioritization, transferring best practice, having the conversations, um, having the internal support and challenge across across the clients wasn't there.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: You had individual businesses that cost that was expensive.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: It it meant, in simple terms, I guess, for me, what it meant was when people came looking for investment in the business, and now this isn't a business that lacks initiatives, we didn't have enough money.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so you were under, you know, rather than saying, okay, I'm going to fully fund this, you were probably giving everybody 20 or 30 percent what they wanted for it, which is a route to failure, frankly.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so it it's it was about saying yes and saying no.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it was about that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: It it you know, going back to the point on the people, it's also about giving people opportunity.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: They're now part of Bray Lane, or a much bigger organization, with with flow, rather than part of a small agency where there's ten of them and nobody's going anywhere.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now those opportunities that management team is across that.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: That must have created quite a lot of confusion amongst the the staff in terms of what their objectives were, you know, people kind of being busy fools, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I mean I yeah, I'm not going to suggest anyone was a fool and they weren't.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: They worked incredibly hard and and and very successfully, but but they were local companies.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we're looking at and I think look, I've worked in lots of businesses like this where if you make an acquisition, you need to add value to that acquisition.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: It can't be an acquisition to just increase your turnover.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and there's far too many of them in the businesses.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: The reason MA doesn't succeed so very often is because people just buy it for turnover for clients.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you made the point earlier of you know, it's about relationships.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you're buying people to to to because of the relationship, it's a very tricky scenario going forward.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: So pull it out.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: How much have you needed to tweak the culture andor incentive structures for people to because as you say, that it was quite a disparate organization, they probably everyone was doing their own little thing, you know, trying hard and doing a good job.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: But you're trying to do something a bit different now.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: So have you had to yeah, we certainly changed the intent of the programme.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um we've we we've we have I hope we've changed it well we we are changing the culture in that we're having much more open conversations there's one head of the agency uh Kate in Breileno for example has a leadership team with her leadership team you know every week and a proper you know a full one every month to actually talk about the whole business and and that's very different and so you know I think you know I might be being unfair but you know one observation was you know you had first and second class citizens at times you know if you were in London you were important and if if you were maybe somewhere else you felt less important and I don't mean that that wasn't somebody I don't think that was in any way ever intended but you know now everybody works for one company in the agency side and and that's the country.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So now that you have the the business at a steady state now you know when you look at your sort of dashboard what what are the operating metrics that you think are important?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is it utilization staff cost pricing margins or is it just a blend of different things?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well it's always a blend but I mean you know to try and answer the question openly you know margins important we were single digits I I think it has to be a strong digit double digital number it will be this year but it needs to be that and you know we we need if we don't value the work we do for our clients they sure won't yeah you know and so we need to understand that and and if they don't value it that's okay we shouldn't do it.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: But we should have that conversation.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's you know one of the the nice things about not always having uh you know you know the retainer because you're doing work for value yeah rather than for hours and I I'm a real believer in the value versus the hours hour conversation.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: So so the margin's important um the cost and and the and the revenue per person is important in our business.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: The fixed cost element of in our business is important.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a cyclical it is a you know it it it's different in Q1 to Q4.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: We can't ask the clients to to pay for our inefficiencies.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have to have a more variable model in that and that we've moved to that.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: And our cash flow you know it's important we do it we you know this will be the first year we don't have any of the earnouts etc that's coming and so we don't have that burden coming through.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: The other point and I I know you know we talk a lot to our investors about um the efficiency and simplification this year but one of the things we put in place 12 months ago was a new chief growth officer which we had never had before and that's with the objective that I've set that says at least 25% of our income from next year on needs to come from products and offers that we didn't have three years ago and that to be a continuous basis.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: And now we have a very strong pipeline of that so that is another metric that is important in our business.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know it's easy to say well what percentage your clients but actually we're a product based business.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: What are you offering your clients and so therefore development of new products and having that mindset is something that's really important to us.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well you've set me up perfectly there John for the next topic uh which was just to really talk about growth you know your sector focus some of the new services that you're thinking about introducing at the group you you said in your opening remarks you know you're prioritizing sport property healthcare and a couple you know and capabilities including your integrated comms PO and events you've set this ambition for you know quarter of your revenue to be coming from new new product lines so maybe just to start us off what why sports property healthcare as the right priority sectors you know what what is it that makes their growth prospects the economics attractive and and I guess equally what are some of the things that you're stopping doing?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: So so let me take the three businesses very quickly if I may so in Breleno the growth we have we have segmented that so we see huge growth in the business to business side in the fintech side etc you know we had we had a good strong betting part of our business that's one that's coming going backwards right to be honest and because of of what's going on in the on on in the economy and with the government and and so it's really refocusing and how are we doing that?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: So each of the segments are are strong.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: The events side uh we we moved events under sports sports is a hugely growing market at the moment it's you know I won't say it's AI proof but you know I I think it's fair to say we're not looking for I I'm a Manchester United supporter so I'm not sure I can say this.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I I I'm you know we're not looking forward to any AI based football matches in the in the near near future.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's been some talk of Carrick being replaced by an AI coach so I'm sure I I I I'm a fan of Mr Carrick I don't think carrick is our problem by the way but but but but it's a big it's a big market.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean we we we I I lived in the US and worked in the US for for 15 years of of my career.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what I found when I came into the business to to Mark's point earlier as well was we had a a good set of clients in the US but we were a UK business operating in the US it's fundamentally different to being so we've moved two three of our best people and we actually are now they're now based in London in in New York.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Within a month we have open we have gained two very big clients in the US US is a is a market that's significantly bigger.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we need to fuel that's what we need to you know the expense the experiences the experimental side of the events is big.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Can you just bring to life what you mean by events in sports just for our audience?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we work with big clients um for example with the America's Cup we have that property um Formula One we have we have work and and so how they show up within that so they they you know they sponsor the event but actually how do they then access that event?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right um when I was at Castro we sponsored the World Cup two World Cups 2014 and uh and 2010 the sponsorship was one thing but we actually entertained and brought over 5,000 customers.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so how do you show up not just not just how it how it looks up looks um from a a a visual perspective but but how does your brand come to life yeah and that's something we're really good at and it's something the benefit of the Brelano experience with the Mongoose experience with the events experience has been huge.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah got it sorry sorry to interrupt you know um and in so I mean just to pick up on what you said there that you you put a couple of people over into a New York office and you've you've seen significant growth what what does the sales cycle typically look like across your three main business lines and how quickly can you can convert a pipeline you know as you see it today into into revenue and then I guess how how does that change depending on the economic cycle?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is it easier when the times are good or is it easier when times are bad?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's a hard one because because we have so many different clients in so many different industries somebody's always winning and somebody's always losing I guess um this the the sports and events side um it can take six nine months it can take a few weeks it typically takes a bit longer because what you're trying to do is is is is get the event and we look at we work it from both sides.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: In some cases we actually are given the event and go looking for sponsor in some cases we have companies who are looking for events so and it you know with that they all matched up they don't um but but but but it it varies for sure I think it's easier when you have the clients who are looking for events than it is when you have the events looking for a client is sport does it tend to be does it tend to be quite a sticky business because these are very high profile events.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you're doing a good job does the client want to take a risk next time trying somebody else is is that a dynamic?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great question mark I and I I'm not sure that there's an easy answer to it and I don't want to to to just give a an off cuff answer.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: It depends I mean typically my experience on both sides of this was clients when they find an event they like and they own they want to keep owning it.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah no because it's it's theirs um the downside of that sometimes uh the World Cup's a good example with Castro we had it for two years two two World Cups is the price suddenly goes up and you can't afford it and somebody else comes in and not necessarily competitor.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's different but but you know our our job and the job the team have done has been fantastic and it's not about the Ryder Cup and it's not about the top end of Formula One.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's about things like paddle it's about it's the growing sports like you know women's sports today is the one that's growing at the fastest pace than anyone else than any any other event it's getting into that and it's also having a level of honesty and openness you know we would not have got involved would live you know it it it we you know you have to have a sustainable model.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Just maybe coming back to football for a moment I mean we we've seen this wave of ownership changes in the in the UK um football market.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Does that create new opportunities for you?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that a kind of positive catalyst um yes I mean change change is an opportunity yeah frankly you know because we are as we are at you know even though we'd probably be in the top fifth 10, 15 sports companies globally, we're still a small company.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know you have two or three that are massive and then you have companies like us who are who who were growing into it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and so you know yes there are opportunities there but but you know we're not at that table yet.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Got it understood.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then coming back to this target of 20% plus of new new revenue coming from coming from new service lines and increased billing what what specifically are some of those services likely to be and then again how should investors be thinking about tracking progress and momentum?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: We have a lot of stuff that is going through IP because one of the things I believe this business has missed out on in the past is IP where you know if you take David our chairman uses a great example of you know we were the first ones on in terms of the real estate business our property business could have come up with the the property websites etc and the IP around that but but we were just delivering a solution rather than being engaged in it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we're looking at stuff like that around the fintech particularly and and some other parts and sports as well in in different parts of IP but for example our our speed business which is the PR business has a an AI-based um called Pulse which is around PR which literally work and it's got IP to it but it literally looks at 150 million it's a huge number I'm not sure I get the figures right but but but but all of the press around your business and looking and it develops opportunities proactive opportunities for you to do PR around that what's going on what's being said in the industry in the market about your company.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so looking at areas like that and actually working with clients like that I think as well um we want to work with our clients to make things easier for them so that it's the value add that we're driving.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well let's uh turn to the inevitable AI question.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: AI obviously it does make agencies more productive um in terms of uh of of efficiency but also could reduce the number of hours that you can charge a customer because they can insource them.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: So how how do you expect AI to change the the economics of your industry?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I think the first thing we should kind of just put a perspective about is you know I I I with my first two CEO jobs the internet didn't exist and and it came along and you know we're all always worried about disruption but disruption has always been there and so I think AI is another disruptor and we you know our job is to be the disruptor rather than to be disrupted within that and that's an easy thing to say more difficult to do.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: But but but I mean to answer the question Mark I think practically what it will do is take away the mundane stuff and really the bit the businesses that will succeed will be the businesses that have real value add, real knowledge real clarity on the clients um a level of you know one of the things our business has tried to do over the last piece is you know we sit in the middle we're not the big and we're not the small how do you have scale with agility yeah and and that's what I think AI will give us that level of scale with agility it will give us efficiencies but but that cannot be how we grow our margin.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: We have to grow our margin by saying we take those efficiencies and we add value.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: So those five days previously that we spent putting a proposal together that can be done in five with the background that can be done in an hour but actually what are you going to do with that five days and so one of the big questions we've been asking our businesses what are you now doing with your time it will change in lots of businesses our clients and ours the profile of people that you're talking to the experience of those people um how dynamic and how um willing to change those people are and that's the kind that's an exciting road we're on because I think by what we've done um by having the clarity around the different parts of our business we know AI will be a will be a different um challenge for each one and so we won't look at it as one.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think the big issue if people will you know at the bigger companies um you know if you're looking at at one it's a problem in the smaller companies you know in the smaller companies that we would acquire they wouldn't have had the resource to do this.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes and so for us I think it's that opportunity.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know one of the things we have also done over the last um number of years not not in the last 12 months is we actually which is to the scale with agility we have partners around the world of our similar size to us who are successful in their markets and so we're working with them you know we do not want to be the ones with a museum of wheels yes we want to save money out we will never be able to invest at the high end of AI and so we should be really clear that that's not what we're trying to do.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well presumably you know you've gone through the simplification project you're much smaller nimbler organization than the kind of the multi-billion yeah agencies that have got you know big offices overlooking the Thames I mean that must be an advantage given the agility as long as we utilize it to our advantage that's around agility.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's also from a client perspective you know very few clients and very few companies I've ever worked with or for you know truly work as global.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: They have a view but they're micro regional at best.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and and that is what we're trying to deliver for them with our partners and with our own skill how do you do it how how do you deliver for them because if I'm sitting in the US I don't want a UK solution being implemented.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: I want I you know I understand the guide rails you're giving me but give me the solution you know give me my local solution you don't you know you don't understand my issue day-to-day issues that's what we're trying to achieve you know with our three businesses but also with our partners what do you think is the are there so common themes in terms of of problems and challenges your customers have with AI you know what what are their kind of current issues I mean I think it would be difficult to go into too many boards who really understand what AI is can do and I think you know trying to jump to a solution or bring somebody in with the solution until you understand the problem the the the best example I can give is you know if you show me any company who've implemented SAP well it'll be because they got it right they knew what they were doing.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: This is another SAP of people are going to drive come in and say I have your solution anyone who goes into a company including ours who says you have we have an AI solution for you I think have a have a big credibility issue.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah this is SAP on speed really isn't it made me uh made me smile because as an investor the the one of the core principles was anyone putting in SAP or an ERP implementation you normally normally sold.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah because came back in three years.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: More often than not it wouldn't work.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just before we move on uh John I was quite curious when you were earlier on talking to Mark you were talking about one of your metrics is is revenue per employee.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm assuming as you implement AI the opportunity is to is to reduce the number of non-revenue facing employees that sit within the the business just because you can automate streamline be more efficient and therefore logically your your revenue per employee should be going up over time.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yes it should I mean you know I I think we have done a lot of that I I think to be honest um you know we've outsourced um uh quite a bit as well and and so if I was sitting in mission today as an employee I'd be looking more hopefully about that I don't that you know it's not the threat it's the opportunity because you know one of the things we are trying to do to go back to your point very early on is is to retrain people and you know I would say um I I give you an analogy which is you know when people used to come to me when they were retiring and say what what should I do you know invariably the answer they were given was take six months or a year off and then if you give that is the worst advice you can give anyone today because if you come back in a year's time you're irrelevant.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and so from an employee perspective I would say anyone who who isn't doing something very different in three years time than they are today is probably not going to be fit for purpose.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's how do we train and bring those people along and that's the key of the clients that's the key of having one organization where there's lots of opportunity and and that's the key of of of having a different set of strategies for the different businesses.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Are you seeing more um so I've gone off on a sidetrack here but are you seeing more um internal mobility across the group?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I guess one of the benefits of being a group well again being an ex center of excellence as an individual business is is internal transfer opportunities it's starting.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: I won't say it's there yet it's starting I mean clearly you know remote working helps that that people don't have to do it but but you know I think what we've done a lot this year is engage people into teams to know what's going on in the group uh look with our big accounts having groups our our target accounts having groups on it that they would never sat on them before our job now is to sit with those individuals and say what's your career path what do you want to do how do you want to do it got it cool um turning to capital allocation um you got net back net bank debt of uh 11 million it was um at half year up from nine million at year end sort of reflecting some of your restructuring charges cash yes and half year is always on the higher end yeah and and some of your and some of your acquisition related payments uh you you're targeting reducing net debt in this in the second half of the year as some of the savings come through not to put words in your mouth but your earlier commentary about MA sort of seem to imply that historic MA hasn't necessarily delivered as expected either because the cash generation from those acquisitions hasn't been enough to offset the acquisition related payments would that would that be sort of a fair characterization?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's not unfair I think we have to have much more rigor.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I my my my viewpoint on acquisition is I think it's good if you can see where the value you're bringing to it don't buy it for for turnover.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so you know I would expect if we're paying six uh you know multiple of six I would want to see a route to three within six months yeah um because you know otherwise it may be better with a different owner and so I think you know we have had some great acquisitions and we've had some average acquisitions and we have some poor acquisitions.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know I don't think we necessarily were able to to tell one from the other all.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And as we think about um you know the the allocation of capital obviously prioritizing net net net debt reduction is key but how how do you then layer in investment into new capabilities or new opportunities, revenue opportunities Perhaps acquisitions, potentially ultimate shareholder returns.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I mean I look, I am very clear our first role is to get our debt net debt down below one.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: My ambition is to do that by the end of this year.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: We are a very high cash generative business, as I said earlier, we don't have any air nuts coming, etc.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so therefore, you know, that that that that drives that.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that's the first piece.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um the second piece is we will continuously look at our portfolio and see what is the value inside the business outside the business of that portfolio.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: We we're not frightened of acquiring or disposing.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: I uh you know, we're not we're not a willing seller, we're certainly not a desperate seller, uh, but but but you know, we we we we will look at our business, it has to be a dynamic business.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um we know what the value is.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: If people think, okay, actually, I uh you know, for me it's worth much more than that.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: We we should be it's respectful to the investors to uh actually entertain that.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um however, you know, our our our other job is to be able to articulate to the investors how we can grow this business exponentially.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I expect every part of our business to at least double its profitability within the next three years.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: That is uh in uh in a an organic way.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think once we reduce our debt.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Double the level of profitability from a margin point of view or cash pound point of view.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: Both right not from a margin, from a from a cash pound e-b uh perspective.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um the the the margin will go up, but uh it may not double, that's not that's not necessarily um but but I think it's an important um you know knowledge for our investors to know.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when we talk to our investors, you know, I think there's a good discussion that says, you know, dividends can be nice, but actually, if you're giving me four or five percent, but actually if I believe you can get 20, 30 percent for acquisitions, yeah, come with those proposals.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: We are building that pipeline, we are building that optionality.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: Look, we have to walk before we can run.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: We need to to deliver our result, we need to get our net debt down to build that credibility to go again.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but uh you know this business has the ability to grow three to fivefold.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you look at the sports and events in particular, it's very strong.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: But but but all of the other businesses are on track to at least double the profitability.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: And does the level of investment intensity have to increase in order to deliver that revenue, that significant revenue growth, or or that's not the doubling, no.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but but I think what our investors should want is to how do we grow this to five tenfold.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: And clearly that is an inorganic piece, but it's an inorganic piece in a different way than we've done today.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: So talk us through what what uh uh new missions MA approach would be how and how that would contrast to historic appropriate.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think um again it will it will look different for the different businesses.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think in our um in our Bray Leno business there is uh uh nice potential add-ons and distress sales uh within that business that we would consider.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but it you know we wouldn't be looking at massive acquisitions there.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: They would be they would have to fit.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: In our property business, I think it's buying technology um that that can grow their business rather than market share.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think in Mongoose it's it's it's growing uh with a huge exponential.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the US is a place we would really want to acqu acquire and invest if we could.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think you know building that uh part of our business to much higher levels is really important.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh John, just I mean, having spent the last 15 months or so simplifying the group, um, you've just talked about not a near-term but a sort of medium-term ambition to to grow inorganically again.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: How how do you avoid adding complexity back into the business having just taken spent 15 months taking complexity out?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because we have three businesses, we're not going to buy another one over here.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: It will fit into the business.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, I I I'll use an example from my my my history, if I may, and which is you know, when I was um when I was at Castrel, um BP bought us, and they took a long time to absorb us, and it was only when they absorbed us did the real value come.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: If we're buying a business, we're buying it because Brelena wants to own that business, or Mongoose wants to own that business.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, we're not kind of investors in in portfolio.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you you you you you said um when we started this conversation this section, you you talked about, or I I said that that your net debt had increased partly because of some of the restructuring charges, partly because of acquisition-related um payments.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't happen in the second half.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: But then looking into next year, it's a clean year.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: How how should how should investors think about cash conversion metrics for the business?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very strong cash conversion business.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: We will continue to become more efficient.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we have to become efficient to invest.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, I'm not looking to add significant um cost to our business.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: If if we're going to invest two, three million, we need to find that those savings somewhere else.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we're looking to do.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Self-funded.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're coming to the end of the podcast now, uh, John.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Just to sort of bring things together, um, you know, what what do you think the stock market fundamentally misunderstands about mission group at the moment?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't mean to be disrespectful because I think we have that credibility issue.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and I hope what they see is a new a new mission group, and I hope they they see the objective of it.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think what they fundamentally uh undervalue is the individual parts of the business.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think what we hopefully also can show is where the value of mission is as an enabler rather than as a cost ad to our business.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, when people look at our markets, they worry about AI.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: I would say AI, we can be the disruptor.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: We can use it to do that, to improve our business.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: When they look at our business, they worry maybe we're not too we're not big enough.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: I would say it's about agility, it's about having the global reach with agility.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: We can't be that company that has the solution in search of a problem because we have such an overhead that we have to um support that overhead.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: We don't.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: Our clients should never have to expect, uh should never be expected to pay for our inefficiency.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think we have an organization, most importantly, with with five CEOs in our businesses who really know how to run it.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the the heroes in our business, I keep saying, uh, you know, the Kate, the Chris, the Alan, the Claire, uh, and the Kelly, those people run their businesses.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're the people who will deliver it.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: I will just add up the figures at the end of the day.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if we were to invite you back in three years' time, um, you know, what would mission need to have achieved for you to say the strategy had been successful?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think from an investor perspective, we would want to I would want to see the mission group be properly valued in terms of from their perspective.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: I would want to see a growth engine, so not an end game, but a trajectory that people were excited about, where we continue to talk about doubling or trebling our our profit uh with real credibility.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope with an organization that where people looked from the outside and said, I want to work there.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good company to work for.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just finally, you've had a really interesting career, worked in lots of different businesses.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any particular bit of business advice you've received over the years that you've really uh taken on board?
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I think I think the two pieces of advice um the first I was given very early when when I was I I was lucky enough to be made a CEO when I was very young, and I and I and I wouldn't have given me the job, and that's not being humble, that's being truthful.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I asked my boss what it was, what what why he gave it to me rather than somebody else, not looking for compliments, but actually just trying to and and his answer was because I know if you're in trouble you'll ask for help.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's advice I give to anyone out there who, you know, whether you're promoting somebody or whether you're in the job, you know, please, you're not on your own.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: Don't keep digging.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's nothing worse than giving somebody a job and then from going away thinking they have to prove something to themselves to you.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: They don't.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're in it together.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other second piece uh of advice I was given is enjoy the job you're in.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Do not look for to be the CEO, to find when you get to be the CEO is not as much fun as you thought it was going to be, and you've wasted your career.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy what you're doing and only do what you enjoy.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: Good advice.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, John's been great fun.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, thanks for being a guest on the business case.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for having me.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Mark.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that was another great conversation on the Business Case podcast.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: John Kerry at Mission Group, what were your um some of your initial thoughts?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really interesting one because you know if you look at um the stock market's treatment of um media agencies over the last you know five or ten years, I mean it's just been really challenging because you've had budget pressure, transition from analog to digital, and now you have AI, so sort of challenges everywhere.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I was really impressed with the way John has uh simplified uh the business.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's this is a common theme.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I meet smaller companies, um yeah, typically they have a history and they're trying to do too many things and doing them all not very well.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, much better to focus on you know what you're really good at and and um and and do that well, and it's exactly what this business um i is doing.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think particularly that sports business uh mongoose that you know that seems to be a real gem within the company.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um sounds as though it's got potential to drive a lot of growth going forwards.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what was your take, Phil?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, I think this is another one, exactly as you said, that's in that AI threat or opportunity bucket.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and at the moment the market is generally more threat than opportunity.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, picking up on a lot of the themes we had with um Ben at RWS, I thought.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um I thought I mean John John clearly inherited a business that was that was in a state of of mess uh and distress, you know, too much debt on the balance sheet, um, very disjointed organization.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's clearly done a lot of work, him and the team have done a lot of work to simplify.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's there's I think you know, some of the cultural changes that he talked about, it's been a again have been a long-running theme through a lot of our podcasts.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think it's comes across that he's just added transparency, a bit of clarity, a bit of honesty to an organization that probably didn't have that before.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's clearly helping.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um he talks a very pretty bullish game in terms of sort of the the organic revenue growth opportunities, you know, 20-30% plus.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that that's that's not insignificant.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then a sort of 2x, 3x on the profit cash profits.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if you then if you then think about how that converts to cash and you don't have these restructuring charges and you don't have acquisition, you know, that that's a lot of cash generation.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that that net debt pile gets wiped out very quickly.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: The the thing that made me a little bit apprehensive, perhaps, was when we were talking about MA, where you know there's clearly more MA ambition that sits within the business.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: But but I was quite taken by the fact that he proactively talked about disposals.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um obviously nothing on the agenda, it didn't sound like, but it was sort of at least on the list of potential possibilities.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I know if there's a summon of parts discount, it doesn't last forever.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, particularly in a sort of dynamic market when you've got some interesting assets.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that was quite that was quite an interesting uh Yeah, it's always interesting.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: Companies that have have a bit of a history um with MA that hasn't been a happy one.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the bar is is very high, I think, um, for for transactions.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I think you know John um definitely appreciates that.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, some some pretty punchy targets there that you don't companies tend not to volunteer.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly it's a company not not without ambition, which is um is really good to hear.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the one the one thing I know I didn't come away really fully grasping was the value of the group over the individual parts of the business.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: So John talked a lot about you know creating centres of excellence and and Bray Leno being a you know a really improved business rather than mission group.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: It sort of seemed that mission group was just a kind of almost like an umbrella and there wasn't really any benefits of it being a group.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that was a bit m sort of left open minded in my mind, I think.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 57:30
  unknown: Good.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hope you enjoyed that conversation.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh lots more uh good podcast guests in in the pipeline.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, if you have any comments or guest suggestions, do drop us a line.