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The great wealth transfer: what you need to know before gifting money · The Money Puzzle

0:10
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Money Puzzle. I'm your host, Julianne Sprague,
0:13
Speaker 1: Wealth editor at The Australian. I'm filling in for James Kirby,
0:17
Speaker 1: who is on a well deserved break, and today's guest
0:20
Speaker 1: Jason Featherby. He is the co founder and head of
0:23
Speaker 1: financial advice at Lure and Wealth. He's got more than
0:26
Speaker 1: twenty five years experience in the industry. He is a
0:30
Speaker 1: friend of the Australian. He does write for the Dollars
0:32
Speaker 1: and Cents column, providing practical tips and guidance for people
0:36
Speaker 1: navigating the complexities of managing their money. And Jason, Welcome
0:41
Speaker 1: to the Money Puzzle.
0:42
Speaker 2: Hi, Jules.
0:43
Speaker 3: Great to be on, first time podcaster, time podcaster. Thanks
0:47
Speaker 3: so yeah, very excited. Couldn't sleep last night. It's like Christmas.
0:51
Speaker 1: You could join us. We'll cover a bit of ground today.
0:54
Speaker 1: But I wanted to chat to you for the Money
0:56
Speaker 1: Puzzle because a recent column you did, this Dollars and
0:58
Speaker 1: Cents column I mentioned that runs in The Australian. It's
1:02
Speaker 1: an advice colin. People put their questions.
1:05
Speaker 3: And we try and give them a bit of guidance
1:06
Speaker 3: and some general advice.
1:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so one question in particular I thought was
1:12
Speaker 1: one that many people are grappling with at the moment.
1:16
Speaker 1: It is around gifting to family and what the tax
1:19
Speaker 1: implications might be. We are in the midst of an
1:22
Speaker 1: intergenerational wealth transfer, and lots of parents, lots of grandparents,
1:27
Speaker 1: they're thinking about this idea that they want to be
1:29
Speaker 1: able to help their kids or their grandkids. Definitely, and
1:32
Speaker 1: they want to do it while they're alive, because there's
1:34
Speaker 1: joy in seeing the benefits that money transfer.
1:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And I think they read the news and
1:40
Speaker 3: watch the news and think, well, their grandkids or their
1:43
Speaker 3: kids are going to find it. It's so difficult to
1:45
Speaker 3: buy a property now that they do want to help.
1:47
Speaker 3: And I reckon that it's taken over as the most
1:50
Speaker 3: commonly asked question of a financial advice. It used to
1:52
Speaker 3: be how much money do I need to retire? And
1:55
Speaker 3: now it is how do I help my kids into
1:57
Speaker 3: a house?
1:58
Speaker 1: And it's property prices, that is that the property prices
2:01
Speaker 1: have hit fresh records this week. People are very concerned
2:05
Speaker 1: about that. But for this column, it was Karen who
2:07
Speaker 1: wrote in about she owned a city residence and her
2:11
Speaker 1: daughter currently occupies that rent free. Wow.
2:17
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, not bad.
2:18
Speaker 1: There's a property you don't even have to live with
2:20
Speaker 1: mum or dad and you're getting it for free. That's
2:23
Speaker 1: a whole other debate. But Karen said that her daughter
2:28
Speaker 1: would inherit the property on her desk, So the plan
2:30
Speaker 1: is always that her daughter was going to have this property.
2:32
Speaker 1: So now Karen is thinking about gifting this property. You know,
2:36
Speaker 1: her daughter's living there rent free. Anyway, I think she's thinking,
2:38
Speaker 1: why not, no's gifted. It sounds like such a lovely
2:41
Speaker 1: thing to do.
2:42
Speaker 2: It's such a simple thing to do.
2:43
Speaker 1: It would seem so simple. And Jason and I would
2:45
Speaker 1: think about this, and if I own my property with
2:49
Speaker 1: my husband, tell her and a bit of the bank,
2:51
Speaker 1: and the bank owns it a little bit of it too.
2:53
Speaker 1: But for I give at sake, say, I decide, I
2:55
Speaker 1: actually just want to give that to my daughter. I
2:57
Speaker 1: just want to give that to her. Then I feel
2:58
Speaker 1: like that's a gift to her. The tax man should
3:01
Speaker 1: just leave me the hell alone.
3:02
Speaker 2: But he won't, she won't. They won't.
3:05
Speaker 3: You need to be really careful. So and on the
3:07
Speaker 3: face of it, I think you nailed it. So it's
3:09
Speaker 3: a really nice thing to do, and to be able
3:11
Speaker 3: to give a gift while you're here on the earth
3:14
Speaker 3: to see the benefits and the joy that gift gives.
3:17
Speaker 2: I think is a wonderful thing.
3:19
Speaker 3: And if you can, I guess philosophically, I think you should.
3:25
Speaker 3: So you should be able to if you can financially
3:28
Speaker 3: and you are in a financial.
3:30
Speaker 2: Position to do so.
3:31
Speaker 3: So we see, as I said, every second person is
3:35
Speaker 3: saying I want to help my kids.
3:36
Speaker 2: I want to help my kids into a house.
3:38
Speaker 3: Do so, yes, but only if it doesn't put your
3:40
Speaker 3: own I guess financial future at risk. So you need
3:44
Speaker 3: to be in a decent financial position yourself before you
3:46
Speaker 3: go down this path.
3:47
Speaker 1: So we probably need to explore that and how you
3:49
Speaker 1: work that out. But can we discuss why these rules
3:55
Speaker 1: are in place and what they might do. So, for example,
3:58
Speaker 1: with the current situation, So if she decides she wants
4:01
Speaker 1: to gift this unit to her daughter while she's still living,
4:06
Speaker 1: what are the implications what happens from a tax?
4:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, so from a tax? So this in Karen's instance,
4:12
Speaker 3: it's not her house, is it? So it's an investment property.
4:15
Speaker 3: It's a property that she owns that she doesn't live in.
4:16
Speaker 3: So on gifting of that house to her daughter, there
4:21
Speaker 3: will be some capital There will be capital gains implications,
4:24
Speaker 3: So what she paid for it and what the value
4:28
Speaker 3: is it the day she gifted it?
4:30
Speaker 2: So this is important.
4:31
Speaker 3: So even if you give it for no consideration, you
4:33
Speaker 3: don't receive her send I think that this was Karen's intent.
4:37
Speaker 3: The taxman is still going to apply the I guess
4:40
Speaker 3: the value on the day it was.
4:41
Speaker 2: Gifted, and who works?
4:43
Speaker 1: Do they just get a market value?
4:45
Speaker 3: They'll get a market value, right, yeah, they'll get a
4:46
Speaker 3: market value. The account and will get a market value,
4:49
Speaker 3: and they'll say, right, you've sold. You've gifted your house,
4:51
Speaker 3: which is effectively a sale for capital gains tax purposes.
4:54
Speaker 3: They'll apply that against the cost base. You'll get a
4:57
Speaker 3: very generous discount from our government because you've probably held
5:00
Speaker 3: it for twelve months. But then there's capital gains tax
5:02
Speaker 3: to pay and that might be an unintended consequence of
5:07
Speaker 3: this gift. So there's capital gains tax implications which need
5:11
Speaker 3: to be considered first of all.
5:13
Speaker 1: And so just so, if Karen has held this property
5:15
Speaker 1: for a significant amount of time, and given what we
5:18
Speaker 1: know that has happened with property prices, she could be
5:20
Speaker 1: up for quite a significant tax bill.
5:21
Speaker 3: Yes, yep, and she needs to at least address that
5:24
Speaker 3: or think about that before she just goes and gives
5:26
Speaker 3: it away.
5:26
Speaker 1: What happens if the daughter inherits this property from the will,
5:30
Speaker 1: So and Karen, I'm sure you're fit and healthy, and
5:33
Speaker 1: I wish you a long and prosperous life. Argument sake, yes,
5:36
Speaker 1: you know tomorrow something happens to Karen. The daughter inherits
5:39
Speaker 1: the property. Does the daughter then have to pay capital
5:41
Speaker 1: gains tax?
5:42
Speaker 3: Not immediately, So the daughter inherits the cost base of
5:45
Speaker 3: Karen the mum. So if Karen paid five hundred thousand
5:48
Speaker 3: dollars for it when she bought it, and say it
5:50
Speaker 3: was worth a million dollars on her passing, then her
5:53
Speaker 3: daughter would inherit a cost base of five hundred thousand,
5:57
Speaker 3: and she would be deemed if she lived in it
5:59
Speaker 3: to then have moved in at the price of a
6:01
Speaker 3: million dollars, and that becomes her residence, so she doesn't
6:04
Speaker 3: automatically pay tax, whereas on the gift the mum Karen
6:09
Speaker 3: does automatically paid capital gains tax. The daughter only pays
6:13
Speaker 3: capital gains tax if she ultimately sells that property and
6:17
Speaker 3: if she lives in it for twenty or thirty years,
6:19
Speaker 3: it's probably not going to be too much of a problem.
6:21
Speaker 1: But if the daughter moved into the property and then
6:25
Speaker 1: goes to sell it two years later, is the capital
6:28
Speaker 1: gains that she has to pay two or three whatever
6:30
Speaker 1: it might be based on the growth from the million
6:34
Speaker 1: dollar property that she moved into. No, it's from the existing.
6:37
Speaker 3: Yes, So between this price, yeah, it's the purchase price
6:40
Speaker 3: and the inheritance price.
6:41
Speaker 2: That's her tax.
6:42
Speaker 3: That's her tax if she lives in it for two
6:44
Speaker 3: or three years and it grows again, it's a principal residence,
6:48
Speaker 3: and so there's no tax on that portion of the game.
6:51
Speaker 1: Okay, if she sold it straight up, is it better
6:54
Speaker 1: to sell property.
6:55
Speaker 2: That you inherit straight away? Yeah? Depends on what you need.
6:58
Speaker 2: So you're going to pay tax.
6:59
Speaker 3: So if you want to live in it, it's probably
7:02
Speaker 3: better to defer the tax. If you're going to live
7:04
Speaker 3: in it or use it as an investment yourself, then
7:07
Speaker 3: why pay the taxman when you don't have to. So
7:09
Speaker 3: at least you've got the option as a gift. There
7:12
Speaker 3: is no option that gift is a trigger for capital
7:14
Speaker 3: gains and you're paying that tax.
7:17
Speaker 1: You mentioned. It's becoming an increasing question to you. There's
7:22
Speaker 1: becoming the number one question from clients of yours. Now,
7:25
Speaker 1: how do I help my kids? And so do we
7:28
Speaker 1: feel that the laws might not have kept pace here
7:32
Speaker 1: with this property price gross? Because presumably I'm going to
7:35
Speaker 1: make assumptions here, but presumably the laws of the way
7:37
Speaker 1: they are to stop people shifting their assets around and
7:40
Speaker 1: avoiding paying tax.
7:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly the government doesn't want people to gift houses
7:45
Speaker 3: and not pay tax. So the laws are there so
7:49
Speaker 3: to stop you from gifting and avoiding tax. Now, if
7:53
Speaker 3: you gift your own house, it's a different story. Karen's
7:56
Speaker 3: is an investment property, so she pays that capital gains tax.
7:59
Speaker 3: If you were to gift your own principal residents whole
8:02
Speaker 3: other conversation, I suppose. But there is no tax on
8:05
Speaker 3: your principal residence, so you can pass assets on into
8:08
Speaker 3: generationally if it's your private residence, because there's no tax
8:13
Speaker 3: on mine. And if I give my house to my
8:15
Speaker 3: kids or one of my kids, or Karen does, and
8:19
Speaker 3: it was my residence and it's their residence, then there's
8:22
Speaker 3: no tax.
8:22
Speaker 2: There's no capital gains tax.
8:24
Speaker 1: So could Karen gift her daughter the home that she's
8:31
Speaker 1: currently living in. It is I've got no idea where
8:35
Speaker 1: these properties are. What's this? But Karen gives the daughter
8:38
Speaker 1: her primary residence the house she's living in, yep, and
8:41
Speaker 1: then Karen moves into the unit.
8:44
Speaker 2: Yes, no tax, no capital gains tax.
8:47
Speaker 1: But no capital gains tax. So that's how Karen's daughter
8:51
Speaker 1: can can own a property and avoid both of them
8:54
Speaker 1: avoid paying.
8:55
Speaker 2: Capital going capital gains tax.
8:56
Speaker 3: Yes, there's still some capital gains tax embedded in that
9:00
Speaker 3: investment property, but it's not dealt with until Karen passes
9:02
Speaker 3: away or not triggered or passes away and the property
9:06
Speaker 3: is sold.
9:07
Speaker 2: You can defer it.
9:09
Speaker 1: And I'm so sorry, I'm going down so many rabbit
9:11
Speaker 1: holes I'm trying. You can see how I'm.
9:13
Speaker 2: Trying to get out of paying time.
9:14
Speaker 1: I am, I am. I'm helping Karen here. So if
9:18
Speaker 1: then could then Karen, who's moved into the unit and
9:23
Speaker 1: the unit is her primary residence, then at some point
9:26
Speaker 1: in the future gives that unit to her daughter and
9:30
Speaker 1: avoid capital gains tax.
9:32
Speaker 3: Not avoid it because it's been an investment property for
9:35
Speaker 3: the period of time until she moves into it. Okay,
9:37
Speaker 3: so she can minimize So she's owned it for three years,
9:40
Speaker 3: and you've got this gain. If she then moves in
9:43
Speaker 3: and lives in it for twenty more years, then the
9:45
Speaker 3: game becomes reasonably marginal in terms of the overall gain.
9:49
Speaker 3: So yeah, look, if I was Karen and I was
9:51
Speaker 3: hell bent on giving my daughter a property, that's what
9:54
Speaker 3: you've just come up with is a reasonably good solution strategy.
10:00
Speaker 1: So what's your advice to your clients when they come
10:03
Speaker 1: and say, I want to be able to gift, whether
10:05
Speaker 1: it's property or money to my kids. Maybe it's about
10:07
Speaker 1: there'll be people having conversations about it, wanting gift money,
10:11
Speaker 1: to provide a deposit or to at least help my
10:14
Speaker 1: kids on their way. What's the what are the tax
10:16
Speaker 1: implications for that? And what is your advice to Okay.
10:18
Speaker 2: So we've touched on one.
10:19
Speaker 3: So the property gifting is actually more a lot more
10:22
Speaker 3: rare than giving of cash, so and it has far
10:26
Speaker 3: more I guess complications attached to it. So capital gains
10:29
Speaker 3: is one in Carriage's because it's a it's an investment
10:32
Speaker 3: property she's gifting, But there's also stamp duty payable by
10:36
Speaker 3: her daughter on the receipt of that property because she's
10:39
Speaker 3: even though she hasn't paid any money. The tax office
10:42
Speaker 3: again applies the stamp duty on the market value at
10:45
Speaker 3: the time of the transfer. So there's capital gains for
10:48
Speaker 3: Karen and there stamp duty for her daughter.
10:50
Speaker 1: That seems so unfair though it's really the state government
10:55
Speaker 1: should be able to waigh that at least because you're
10:58
Speaker 1: there's no treasure that hasn't paid any money for it,
11:00
Speaker 1: and yet the government will treat it as a.
11:02
Speaker 2: Change of ownership.
11:03
Speaker 3: It's the same paperwork as far as the government are concerned,
11:06
Speaker 3: is if I was to sell a property to you.
11:09
Speaker 1: But the stamp duty on these properties now is quite significant.
11:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, the government must be making a fortune on stamp duty. Yeah.
11:16
Speaker 3: And the thing about stamp duty, it hasn't been changed
11:19
Speaker 3: or the rate of stamp duty hasn't been changed for
11:21
Speaker 3: so long, and yet the prices of property have gone
11:24
Speaker 3: through the roof. So they're making a lot of money
11:26
Speaker 3: that the state government. And yeah, that sugar hits. It's
11:29
Speaker 3: hard to unwind, it's hard to give up. They're not
11:32
Speaker 3: even likely to.
11:33
Speaker 1: Do so, Okay, So it sounds to me that property
11:36
Speaker 1: is too difficult, and that's probably adding two inflated property
11:39
Speaker 1: prices because people.
11:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wouldn't help, it wouldn't help.
11:43
Speaker 3: And again there's the one less property going in the market,
11:45
Speaker 3: isn't there's sort of kept in house, so that doesn't
11:46
Speaker 3: help with the supply of property. So property is problematic.
11:49
Speaker 3: Cash is a lot simpler. So if you were to
11:53
Speaker 3: gift cash, there is no tax ramifications on the gift.
11:57
Speaker 2: Tour or the giftee, so no problem. So no problems.
12:02
Speaker 1: Okay, So my dad decides I'm going to give jewels
12:05
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars tomorrow. You can just put fifty thousand
12:09
Speaker 1: dollars into my account.
12:10
Speaker 3: No problems with me, I can so from a tax
12:12
Speaker 3: point of view, no tax on a gift yet in Australia,
12:16
Speaker 3: and no tax on obviously receiving a gift. So the
12:19
Speaker 3: problems then with the money gift come from if it's money,
12:23
Speaker 3: that is your money, it's important to you, and it's
12:25
Speaker 3: in the family. What if I was to gift, know,
12:28
Speaker 3: you two hundred thousand dollars and then you go and
12:31
Speaker 3: split up with your husband and your husband walks away
12:34
Speaker 3: with half of my two hundred thousand dollars, So that's
12:37
Speaker 3: something to consider. So my view, I think if you're
12:41
Speaker 3: going to make large gifts, a be in a financial
12:44
Speaker 3: position to do so, and be consider making it a
12:47
Speaker 3: loan rather than a gift, so you've got some sort
12:49
Speaker 3: of clawback on that money if something were to happen
12:52
Speaker 3: to your loved one.
12:53
Speaker 1: So let's say you've structured as a loan to me,
12:56
Speaker 1: so you get to loan me two hundred thousand dollars.
12:58
Speaker 1: Then my husband and I bullit when it comes to
13:03
Speaker 1: the asset division. That's treated as.
13:05
Speaker 3: A oh if it's a loan, Yeah, it's a loan,
13:08
Speaker 3: So it's a liability that you have, and me, as
13:12
Speaker 3: the lender, can say, oh, hang on, jewels, you're getting
13:15
Speaker 3: you're getting divorced, or you've split up with your husband.
13:18
Speaker 2: I want my money back.
13:20
Speaker 1: I see.
13:20
Speaker 3: So while when you're splitting everything up, pay me first,
13:24
Speaker 3: then you can split the rest up.
13:25
Speaker 1: Does that then mean that my husband could get less
13:31
Speaker 1: from the asset pool because there's a two hundred thousand
13:35
Speaker 1: dollars loan and instead of that being one hundred thousand
13:38
Speaker 1: dollars each, I actually get two hundred thousand dollars outcause
13:40
Speaker 1: of a liability. But that will then reduce the.
13:42
Speaker 3: Yes, you pay me back as the lender when your
13:45
Speaker 3: divorce or financial settlement is settled, legally, I can relend
13:49
Speaker 3: you that I can't I and do it again. So
13:51
Speaker 3: it is a good way to protect family money. So
13:55
Speaker 3: it is one thing to consider when making a gift.
13:57
Speaker 1: Sure, I'm looking forward to you having those discussions with
14:00
Speaker 1: your daughters.
14:03
Speaker 3: They're only getting loans, there's no gifts.
14:06
Speaker 1: Okay, so we probably need to explore We need to
14:11
Speaker 1: explore that a little bit further. I think in terms
14:13
Speaker 1: about how to protect the transfer of wealth through the generations,
14:19
Speaker 1: But just on gifting itself. Is there are some sort
14:22
Speaker 1: of caps so.
14:23
Speaker 2: They're not too there are yet that then can.
14:25
Speaker 1: Affect your eligibility for the age pension.
14:28
Speaker 2: Yes, yep, so there are.
14:30
Speaker 3: And in your example where you your dad has lent
14:32
Speaker 3: you no gifts you fifty thousand dollars if he is
14:37
Speaker 3: on an age pension. Weirdly, part of that gift, forty
14:41
Speaker 3: thousand dollars of that gift is treated as an asset
14:43
Speaker 3: for five years. So you need to be careful if
14:45
Speaker 3: you're on an age pension and giving money away, because
14:48
Speaker 3: even though you give it away, essentielic is still going
14:51
Speaker 3: to assess you was owning most of that for five years.
14:55
Speaker 1: Again, this is to try and stop people throwing their
14:57
Speaker 1: money left front and center and get under.
14:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, under the asset lest asset test limit.
15:02
Speaker 3: So you're allowed to give ten thousand dollars a year,
15:05
Speaker 3: which doesn't sound a lot.
15:06
Speaker 1: It doesn't really sound like much. Has that been changed
15:08
Speaker 1: over the years?
15:09
Speaker 3: Has that really kept up with twenty You should ask,
15:12
Speaker 3: because it hasn't. Two thousand and two was the last
15:15
Speaker 3: time the gifting limits were meddled with, So ten thousand
15:20
Speaker 3: dollars you're only allowed to give a year or thirty
15:22
Speaker 3: thousand dollars over five years for the last twenty three years.
15:26
Speaker 1: Do they need to change that?
15:27
Speaker 2: They probably should, at least inflate it. So I did
15:30
Speaker 2: some numbers on it.
15:31
Speaker 3: So in twenty twenty five that ten thousand dollars should
15:34
Speaker 3: have roughly doubled, So you should be allowed to give
15:37
Speaker 3: now twenty thousand dollars or sixty thousand over three years.
15:40
Speaker 3: But it hasn't changed. So it means that you can't
15:45
Speaker 3: give much away and or you.
15:47
Speaker 1: Have to do it five yes.
15:50
Speaker 2: Or give yourself a run up.
15:51
Speaker 1: Before sixty seven. So you have to do it before
15:54
Speaker 1: you turn sixty two.
15:56
Speaker 3: Yes, So if you've plan it out and if you
15:58
Speaker 3: and we see this lot, I've paid tax all my life,
16:00
Speaker 3: you know I'm entitled to my age pension.
16:02
Speaker 2: If that's where you want to head.
16:04
Speaker 3: And you say you've got a million dollars in super
16:06
Speaker 3: and at sixty two you're retired, you can give five
16:08
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars of that away. By the time you
16:11
Speaker 3: hit sixty seven, that five hundred thousand dollars gift or alone,
16:16
Speaker 3: if you get advice, is no longer an asset as
16:19
Speaker 3: far as centling a concerner.
16:21
Speaker 1: You do that before you're sixty two.
16:22
Speaker 2: Yep, because they only assess it for five years.
16:25
Speaker 1: Do you think they're likely to change that as this
16:27
Speaker 1: intergenerational wealth transfers.
16:29
Speaker 3: Moment, maybe like if enough people did it. And I've
16:32
Speaker 3: done this for a long time, but I haven't seen
16:35
Speaker 3: extreme examples of that. My view of that is, if
16:37
Speaker 3: you never if you're fortunate enough to never have to
16:41
Speaker 3: walk into a sentilink offers, you should accept that as
16:44
Speaker 3: being a pretty good thing, and don't force your way
16:48
Speaker 3: into an age pension just because you feel you're entitled.
16:51
Speaker 2: I get it. We pay tax all our lives and
16:53
Speaker 2: all that.
16:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, well I agree with you. I feel like
16:55
Speaker 1: that there's if you can. If you can have financial
16:59
Speaker 1: indep and you've worked very hard for it, and you
17:02
Speaker 1: do not need to rely on the government. We all life.
17:04
Speaker 1: That's a great thing, which is why I understand why
17:06
Speaker 1: people get so worked up when the government goes to
17:09
Speaker 1: change rules, particularly on that superannuation change. Talking about when
17:14
Speaker 1: we come back from the break, we might talk a
17:15
Speaker 1: little bit more about that. So there are some tricks
17:18
Speaker 1: that people are making with sentling to try and that
17:22
Speaker 1: we've highlighted at The Australian this week and it's really interesting.
17:27
Speaker 1: It's a way around those asset tests and I want
17:31
Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on that and whether it might
17:32
Speaker 1: be a clever strategy to do it. Basically involves getting
17:35
Speaker 1: a better property and getting the age pension at the
17:37
Speaker 1: same time. But I also want to get your thoughts
17:40
Speaker 1: on whether you should ever really pay off your mortgage.
17:42
Speaker 1: There's this growing trend that you should never pay off
17:44
Speaker 1: your mortgage. It sounds crazy, but we'll find out why
17:49
Speaker 1: when we come back. Welcome back to the Money Puzzle.
18:07
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Julianne Sprague, Wealth editor at the Australian
18:11
Speaker 1: filling in for James Kirby. He is on a well
18:14
Speaker 1: deserved break. He will be back with you shortly And
18:17
Speaker 1: I'm chatting to Jason Featherby, head of financial advice and
18:20
Speaker 1: a co founder of Lewin Wealth. He's been in the
18:23
Speaker 1: game a long time. He's advised people on all sorts
18:26
Speaker 1: of strategies and Jason, before we went to the break,
18:29
Speaker 1: I mentioned to you about some of the strategies people
18:31
Speaker 1: are using to make sure that they can get their
18:34
Speaker 1: aged pension and it has raised my eyebrows. James Gerard,
18:38
Speaker 1: well known financial planner. He has written about this for
18:41
Speaker 1: The Australian about it sounds it sounds nuts to me,
18:44
Speaker 1: but I can can't understand how this can work. So
18:46
Speaker 1: it is all about getting access to the age pension
18:48
Speaker 1: and there is an asset test in place and if
18:51
Speaker 1: you don't meet the requirements, no age pension for you.
18:54
Speaker 1: But there is some people have found a way around
18:57
Speaker 1: and it involves, for Kim sake, taking four hundred or
19:01
Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars out of your Super three hundred
19:04
Speaker 1: thousand whatever it might be, taking a big chunk out
19:06
Speaker 1: of Super and upgrading their property so they use a
19:10
Speaker 1: huge chunk of money, get a better home, and reduce
19:13
Speaker 1: their assets qualify for the age pension.
19:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it.
19:18
Speaker 3: I mean to put it simply, if you're over the
19:22
Speaker 3: asset test limit for an age pension as a couple,
19:26
Speaker 3: every ten thousand dollars you can get rid of.
19:29
Speaker 2: That means gifting, which we've spoken about.
19:31
Speaker 3: Upgrading the house now that could mean literally just renovating it,
19:35
Speaker 3: putting a new kitchen in, putting solar panels on, or
19:38
Speaker 3: going to the extreme of actually moving house. You get
19:41
Speaker 3: seven percent return on that money. So ten thousand dollars
19:45
Speaker 3: gives you a seven percent return in extra age pension.
19:48
Speaker 3: So in some instances it's actually a pretty good strategy.
19:52
Speaker 1: That's not terrible, is it.
19:54
Speaker 3: No, Because it's hard to get a seven percent return
19:56
Speaker 3: guaranteed for anywhere else.
19:58
Speaker 1: The system wasn't designed to do that though, right, like
20:02
Speaker 1: the age pension is meant to.
20:03
Speaker 3: Be this.
20:05
Speaker 1: All people will argue with me. I've got to stay
20:07
Speaker 1: safe to that. But I know there'll be lots of
20:09
Speaker 1: people arguing that. You said, like people have paid taxes,
20:12
Speaker 1: it's my right to it. I'm not sure it was
20:14
Speaker 1: designed for this. It wasn't designed to go and get
20:18
Speaker 1: marble bench tops that have.
20:19
Speaker 2: The state of the art solar panel.
20:21
Speaker 1: I'll get a twenty thousand dollars fridge.
20:22
Speaker 3: Big holidays, you can go spend some money on holidays.
20:25
Speaker 3: In our defense of those that provide these strategies. When
20:30
Speaker 3: the age pension was introduced, people didn't live to get
20:34
Speaker 3: the age pension, so they thought, we'll offer everyone an
20:36
Speaker 3: age pension at sixty two wherever the original age was.
20:38
Speaker 3: But I think the average life experience was probably fifty
20:41
Speaker 3: eight or something, so it was never going to be
20:43
Speaker 3: a big cost. Now it's sort of crept up on
20:45
Speaker 3: the government and it's now a huge cost, and they
20:48
Speaker 3: don't want us doing these things. But the rules are
20:51
Speaker 3: in there to legitimately have a better house, get an
20:53
Speaker 3: age pension, and for some people, and I think if
20:57
Speaker 3: your marginal, so if you've got I don't know, eight
21:00
Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars, say, and you can get rid of
21:02
Speaker 3: two or three hundred thousand and get a better house,
21:05
Speaker 3: maybe make a gift to the kids, prepay a funeral,
21:08
Speaker 3: other things that are not asset tested, and get paid
21:11
Speaker 3: well to do it. Then why not if you have
21:17
Speaker 3: three million dollars in super and you take two and
21:19
Speaker 3: a half million dollars and buy a mansion in del
21:21
Speaker 3: Keith to get a full age pension, I'd be saying,
21:24
Speaker 3: what are you doing? So everyone should get their own
21:27
Speaker 3: advice on this, But for some it's a really good
21:30
Speaker 3: strategy and for some you just why is the risk?
21:33
Speaker 1: Then if you pour all of that asset then into
21:35
Speaker 1: climb a home or ice.
21:36
Speaker 3: Property, you've got less money. So you've got less money
21:39
Speaker 3: and you don't know exactly depending on your living costs.
21:42
Speaker 3: The age pension sounds wonderful, but what is It's forty
21:45
Speaker 3: odd forty five thousand dollars a year for a couple.
21:48
Speaker 3: It doesn't meet on its own even enough to meet
21:52
Speaker 3: and make a modest retirement living. So you don't want
21:55
Speaker 3: to give all your money away just to get forty
21:57
Speaker 3: five thousand dollars and have no money because you'll need
22:00
Speaker 3: new cars, you'll have poor health, sadly to a lot
22:03
Speaker 3: of people, you might want to go on holiday. Heaven forbid,
22:07
Speaker 3: you might end up in age care and you might
22:08
Speaker 3: end up in age care at the same time, So
22:10
Speaker 3: where do you get the money to pay for that?
22:12
Speaker 3: And so that's why I think again, if you can
22:15
Speaker 3: avoid centre link because you have enough money. You're in
22:19
Speaker 3: a really good position, and I certainly wouldn't go forcing
22:21
Speaker 3: the issue just to get a bit more help from
22:23
Speaker 3: the government if you are wealthy.
22:26
Speaker 1: But when you're saying borderlines, So what's your view of, I.
22:29
Speaker 3: Reckon scept Yeah, six to eight hundred thousand dollars of
22:31
Speaker 3: accessible assets. That extra two or three hundred thousand dollars
22:34
Speaker 3: can do a lot in terms of housing, solar panels,
22:38
Speaker 3: gift for kids and things like that. And you are
22:40
Speaker 3: by getting your assets down two or three hundred thousand
22:43
Speaker 3: dollars and leaving yourself with five hundred thousand, for example,
22:46
Speaker 3: it's still enough money to have access to and you're
22:50
Speaker 3: going to get a much higher pension or bigger bang
22:52
Speaker 3: for your buck in terms of the money that you
22:54
Speaker 3: legally get rid of. If you've got three hundred thousand
22:59
Speaker 3: dollars in super few other things and you're already getting
23:01
Speaker 3: most of a pension and you go buy a new
23:03
Speaker 3: house and you get a tiny bit more pension, you know,
23:07
Speaker 3: I'd question why it makes sense. So it's when you're
23:10
Speaker 3: in that sort of it's almost middle income, middle age
23:14
Speaker 3: or middle wealth zone where you can do a bit
23:18
Speaker 3: of clever stuff with assets and the age pension.
23:22
Speaker 1: Right for the picking.
23:24
Speaker 3: Great place to give advice, but don't go forced this
23:28
Speaker 3: uear by spending a million dollars on an extra house,
23:30
Speaker 3: or you know, giving a million dollars away to kids,
23:33
Speaker 3: leaving yourself with four hundred and fifty thousand, because you
23:36
Speaker 3: just don't know what's around the corner with your health
23:37
Speaker 3: or with what you might need.
23:39
Speaker 1: So before we get to why you might never want
23:41
Speaker 1: to pay off your mortgage, can you articulate how you
23:46
Speaker 1: can determine your financial position You mentioned earlier when you're
23:50
Speaker 1: trying to work out gifting, So whether that's gifting a property,
23:52
Speaker 1: gifting money to the kids, how do you determine that
23:58
Speaker 1: you're in the financial actual shape to do it. Because
24:01
Speaker 1: it's a very emotional, particularly when it comes to family
24:04
Speaker 1: and kids, that there is this drive and this desire
24:07
Speaker 1: to really help.
24:08
Speaker 3: Them, to really help because they're our kids, so we
24:10
Speaker 3: understand that, but look to put it really simply, you
24:13
Speaker 3: should be in a financial position where you have no
24:17
Speaker 3: debt or it's pretty much gone.
24:19
Speaker 2: And if.
24:22
Speaker 3: You didn't have this money because you've gifted it away
24:26
Speaker 3: or lent it, it's not going to impact your ability
24:29
Speaker 3: to generate an income in retirement. So you should have
24:31
Speaker 3: enough other assets to generate a passive income for you
24:34
Speaker 3: to live comfortably in the retirement that you want. So
24:38
Speaker 3: they're the two basic ones. No debt and enough assets
24:40
Speaker 3: to produce the income that you need. If you're not there,
24:44
Speaker 3: then I'd think very carefully about giving money away to
24:46
Speaker 3: kids that still have time to get there.
24:49
Speaker 2: You're there, you know.
24:50
Speaker 3: If you're not there, and if you've got debt or
24:52
Speaker 3: if you haven't got enough insupor to live off, and
24:54
Speaker 3: you're giving away or proposing to give away hundreds of
24:57
Speaker 3: thousands of dollars, probably don't you.
25:00
Speaker 1: We have to counsel clients then away from this. All
25:02
Speaker 1: the time they've come to you, they are dead set
25:04
Speaker 1: going to gift money or do whatever it was to
25:07
Speaker 1: help their kids, and you've actually had to point out
25:08
Speaker 1: you actually really aren't in.
25:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, the financial and you do it from you're my clients,
25:14
Speaker 3: and I'm here to help you and allowing this or
25:18
Speaker 3: I guess indulging this or accepting this gift or loan
25:22
Speaker 3: or whatever we want to do is going to leave
25:24
Speaker 3: you short or it's going to put your own retirement
25:26
Speaker 3: at risk, and you're mad.
25:28
Speaker 1: And do they get concerned about what their kids will say?
25:31
Speaker 3: I do.
25:32
Speaker 1: I am worried about this sense of entitlement that's brewing
25:34
Speaker 1: in a generation.
25:35
Speaker 2: There is and they do, Yeah, they do.
25:38
Speaker 3: And so some people don't want to draw down on
25:40
Speaker 3: this super because they want to leave it all to
25:42
Speaker 3: their kids and want to make sure they have every
25:44
Speaker 3: cent left for their kids. And my view of that is,
25:48
Speaker 3: like you were kids, we were kids, will be okay.
25:51
Speaker 3: Generations of kids have been okay. Why do we suddenly
25:54
Speaker 3: need to give everything up for our kids? Like, yes,
25:57
Speaker 3: help them, love them, but don't do it to your
26:01
Speaker 3: own detriment.
26:02
Speaker 1: It's their time to make their way in the world,
26:04
Speaker 1: their adults.
26:05
Speaker 3: Now, that's what I think. Yeah, So unless you are
26:07
Speaker 3: very comfortable, then I'm all for it. If you're not
26:10
Speaker 3: comfortable yourself, then I'm dead against it. Don't do it
26:13
Speaker 3: unless you are in a position to do so.
26:17
Speaker 1: All right, let's move to this topic about paying your
26:20
Speaker 1: mortgage off. I was always told it was the one
26:22
Speaker 1: thing you should focus on. Pay off your mortgage. Don't
26:25
Speaker 1: do anything else, pay it all off.
26:28
Speaker 3: I still still think that's the thing to do well
26:31
Speaker 3: to pay them off in the main.
26:33
Speaker 1: Yes, but there is this theory that you should pay
26:37
Speaker 1: it well off except never close it out. So just
26:40
Speaker 1: have a little bit sitting in there, or maybe it's
26:42
Speaker 1: technically paid off, you've just you have sitting in there
26:46
Speaker 1: or something. Why would you not just close out your mortgage?
26:49
Speaker 1: I picture a day, Jase, I picture a day. I
26:55
Speaker 1: just I feel like there will be a ticket take parade.
26:57
Speaker 1: I feel like there will be fireworks. Yes, it will
27:01
Speaker 1: be a spectacular event. Paid off the mortgage, it is
27:04
Speaker 1: a zero dollar balance. Close it out, Thank you very much,
27:07
Speaker 1: see you later.
27:08
Speaker 3: I don't even think you get your certificate of title anymore.
27:10
Speaker 3: I think they're all digital, aren't they. So you know
27:12
Speaker 3: you used to go to the bank and collect your
27:13
Speaker 3: title when you're paid off your debt.
27:15
Speaker 2: That's a symbolic event, but that digital.
27:19
Speaker 3: I don't like it, sadly that touch and fairly aspect
27:22
Speaker 3: that it's gone. Even with your certificate of title, you'll
27:24
Speaker 3: never see it unless you sort of you've already got
27:27
Speaker 3: it and long held it.
27:28
Speaker 1: Why should I not ever close out the mortgage?
27:31
Speaker 2: There is a school of thoughts.
27:32
Speaker 3: So again my view is, if you've got enough in
27:34
Speaker 3: super and you're comfortable. I can't see the harm in
27:37
Speaker 3: closing off your mortgage, and I know we'll touch on it,
27:39
Speaker 3: but I've got a different view on credit cards. But
27:42
Speaker 3: so the mortgage is, if you leave it open, it's accessible,
27:47
Speaker 3: and people think, oh, I just in case I need it,
27:49
Speaker 3: just in case I need it.
27:51
Speaker 2: But what if you're not.
27:51
Speaker 3: Very good with money and you just need it way
27:54
Speaker 3: too often? Then you can go from a period of
27:57
Speaker 3: having paid off your mortgage left it open, then because
28:00
Speaker 3: you're not very good with money, you've gone on three
28:02
Speaker 3: overseas trips, bought the kids a car, and suddenly you've
28:04
Speaker 3: got two hundred thousand dollars a debt that you didn't
28:06
Speaker 3: know where it came from. So if you're not very
28:09
Speaker 3: good with money, or you don't think you're going to
28:11
Speaker 3: be very good with money, then keeping access to a
28:14
Speaker 3: heap of debt is not the best thing.
28:16
Speaker 1: Okay, So definitely close it out.
28:18
Speaker 2: Oh if you can, Yes, I would.
28:20
Speaker 1: But what happened. So as much as I would love
28:25
Speaker 1: to tell you I'm so far ahead of my mortgage
28:26
Speaker 1: and it will be sometime in the next year I've
28:28
Speaker 1: paid it off, I have Buckley's chance of that it
28:32
Speaker 1: will be as I'm older, and then I get concerned
28:37
Speaker 1: about access to a line of credit. So if I
28:39
Speaker 1: close out the.
28:40
Speaker 3: Mortgage, where do I get emergency or rainy day money from?
28:43
Speaker 1: Yes, something comes out of left field, and all of
28:45
Speaker 1: a sudden, I go to the bank and say, hey,
28:47
Speaker 1: you know need alone. And where they're a bit agist.
28:49
Speaker 3: Banks, they're very agist, and they're very incomist, which they yeah.
28:53
Speaker 1: That's probably what they are. They're incomist from which.
28:55
Speaker 3: I don' have no issue with being incommistries.
28:58
Speaker 1: Inventor worked he did incomist Okay, I don't mind it either.
29:01
Speaker 1: They care about your income.
29:02
Speaker 2: They care about your income and your ability to repay.
29:05
Speaker 3: So even if you've got access to a million dollars
29:08
Speaker 3: a super and you're retired because you've got no wage,
29:11
Speaker 3: the bank, a bank will be very reluctant to give
29:14
Speaker 3: you debt, which is to your point, not keep that
29:17
Speaker 3: mortgage open. I prefer to keep a credit card available,
29:22
Speaker 3: a low cost, not one of these fancy credit cards,
29:25
Speaker 3: low interest rate credit card.
29:27
Speaker 1: It is easy to it's easy to rack up a
29:29
Speaker 1: bit of down on that it is.
29:30
Speaker 3: But it might be five or ten thousand rather than
29:32
Speaker 3: two unpaid mortgage just.
29:34
Speaker 1: On credit cards. I had not thought about this, this
29:36
Speaker 1: idea that you should have a credit card in your
29:38
Speaker 1: own name rather be the secondary holder. Now, in my household,
29:42
Speaker 1: we always have a secondary holder because you've bother with
29:44
Speaker 1: all the paper work and mine.
29:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you and again, if you're both working,
29:49
Speaker 3: not a problem of generally not a problem if you're
29:52
Speaker 3: retired and you've got no income wage income, and you
29:56
Speaker 3: have a credit card with a secondary card and the
30:00
Speaker 3: primary card holder dies.
30:02
Speaker 1: Yes, So, for argument's sake, my husband and I have
30:04
Speaker 1: a credit card. He's a primary holder. I'm a secondary holder.
30:07
Speaker 1: Love your honey. Something happens and then I think I
30:09
Speaker 1: can continue to use this. I've used his cards for
30:11
Speaker 1: however many years, but because he is the primary holder,
30:14
Speaker 1: it is in his name, and so it gets extinguished,
30:16
Speaker 1: and then it might be difficult for me to get
30:18
Speaker 1: my own card.
30:19
Speaker 3: It might be difficult for you, but you have a
30:20
Speaker 3: job and your work. If you're seventy years old and
30:23
Speaker 3: that happens, it's impossible. So it's I think it's important
30:27
Speaker 3: to have just a low cost.
30:29
Speaker 1: So low fee, low cost. It's a burnerchard it's pretty
30:33
Speaker 1: much it's literally an emergency card. An emergency card, put
30:36
Speaker 1: it in the bottom drawer, but make sure you've got
30:38
Speaker 1: access to it. At what age do people be thinking
30:41
Speaker 1: that they should do that? Every couple should have a card.
30:44
Speaker 3: In therea while you're working, and you can so because
30:46
Speaker 3: when you're not working, it becomes very difficult to get
30:48
Speaker 3: a credit card, no.
30:49
Speaker 2: Matter how old you are.
30:50
Speaker 3: So while you're working, you can still have the main
30:53
Speaker 3: credit card with a secondary card attached. But just for
30:56
Speaker 3: that for your spouse, have another credit card that you
30:58
Speaker 3: just never use, and just make sure it's low cost
31:02
Speaker 3: or no cost. Don't need the frequent flowers and all
31:04
Speaker 3: that stuff. No fees, no fees, so and you can
31:08
Speaker 3: get them.
31:09
Speaker 1: Jason, we need to get to a break and when
31:11
Speaker 1: we come back, we have some listeners with some pretty
31:14
Speaker 1: good questions. I reckon Andrew's written in about gifting rules,
31:18
Speaker 1: and Brian wants to know if super automatically passes to
31:22
Speaker 1: a spouse upon death, and so we will get to that,
31:25
Speaker 1: all right, We'll have that discussion when we come back.
31:40
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Money Puzzle. I'm joined with Jason
31:43
Speaker 1: Featherby from Lewin Wealth. I'm your host, Julianne Sprague, Jason.
31:48
Speaker 1: We've had some listeners email the Money Puzzle. The Money
31:51
Speaker 1: Puzzle at the Australian dot Com dot au is where
31:54
Speaker 1: you can send your questions to. But Andrew has emailed,
31:57
Speaker 1: and he has mentioned about this ten ten, one thousand
32:00
Speaker 1: dollars gifting cap. He did want to know if they
32:03
Speaker 1: had any if there had been any discussions about ever increasing.
32:07
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
32:08
Speaker 3: It is weird because we talk about deeming, we talk
32:10
Speaker 3: about indexing the age pension rates, and we talk about
32:13
Speaker 3: indexing the asset test limits. I don't know it would
32:16
Speaker 3: have been discussed, but I've never heard anyone suggest that
32:19
Speaker 3: it should be higher. But clearly, what did I say
32:22
Speaker 3: twenty years.
32:23
Speaker 1: We've put it on the agenda right here at the
32:25
Speaker 1: Money Puzzle. We'll put it, Sir Jim Chalmers. Shall we
32:28
Speaker 1: Andrew and we'll see what he's got to say about that? Okay, Andrew,
32:32
Speaker 1: His question is around this gifting rule, and so, for
32:36
Speaker 1: argument's sake, so he understands that the ten if you
32:39
Speaker 1: gift ten thousand.
32:40
Speaker 2: Dollars cash to someone, it's a gift.
32:43
Speaker 1: That's a gift, and that's it and qualifies as a gift.
32:46
Speaker 1: But Andrew says, what if this particular Soviet the pensioner
32:52
Speaker 1: or parent was to pay for a child or a
32:57
Speaker 1: grandchild's bill. So there's a bill to pay. Is that
33:02
Speaker 1: a gift or is that simply kindness and helping a
33:08
Speaker 1: family member out? I mean, surely if you're paying for
33:11
Speaker 1: a family meal, that's not considered.
33:14
Speaker 3: I think there's probably a materiality thing here. A meal
33:16
Speaker 3: you'd get away with ord imagine.
33:18
Speaker 1: So what if I I mean ten thousand dollars is
33:23
Speaker 1: not is school fees?
33:24
Speaker 2: Potentially that'd be a gift.
33:25
Speaker 1: What do you mean it's a gift? They're paying a bill.
33:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you're gifting the money to pay the bill.
33:29
Speaker 2: I think.
33:30
Speaker 3: I think the rules are you're not receiving anything in return,
33:34
Speaker 3: so therefore it's a gift. So buying a car, paying
33:38
Speaker 3: school fees, things.
33:40
Speaker 2: Like that gifts.
33:41
Speaker 1: What if they were micro So what if they were
33:44
Speaker 1: ten one thousand dollar lots? So what if the someone
33:47
Speaker 1: said i'll pay your power bills for the year. Government's
33:49
Speaker 1: been gifting that left right and center?
33:51
Speaker 3: True, just call it a rebate or a supplement and
33:54
Speaker 3: you might get away with it.
33:55
Speaker 1: Does the taxman or centily how do they keep tabs
33:57
Speaker 1: on this.
33:57
Speaker 3: It's very much an honor system in terms of the gifts.
34:00
Speaker 3: But they also do have access to your bank account.
34:02
Speaker 3: So if you were giving someone a thousand dollars a
34:04
Speaker 3: month and it was every month.
34:06
Speaker 2: You'd get caught.
34:07
Speaker 3: Okay, if it was a thousand here and a thousand there,
34:10
Speaker 3: and it's a bit random and you paid for you
34:13
Speaker 3: odd meal or even you did their shopping, you could
34:16
Speaker 3: wouldn't even know that someone else's shopping. But when you're
34:19
Speaker 3: buying school fees, cars, regular amounts their gifts and be
34:24
Speaker 3: really careful.
34:25
Speaker 1: Okay, Andrew, thank you very much for the question Brian
34:29
Speaker 1: wants to know. Is super automatically passed to a spouse
34:33
Speaker 1: upon death.
34:34
Speaker 3: Not automatically, probably, is the answer, but not automatically. So
34:38
Speaker 3: if you have a very clean life and you've only
34:42
Speaker 3: had one spouse and there's not much room for error,
34:45
Speaker 3: then it's likely that your super would go there. But
34:47
Speaker 3: your super is where it goes is dictated by the
34:50
Speaker 3: super fund trustee, So whoever's the boss of that fund
34:54
Speaker 3: will decide where your money goes. So if you want
34:56
Speaker 3: to be absolutely certain, spouse or otherwise, you make a
35:00
Speaker 3: binding nomination in favor of your spouse, and then it
35:03
Speaker 3: leaves no room for error, no room for judgment, and
35:07
Speaker 3: no chance that an ex spouse or a challenge to that.
35:11
Speaker 3: I guess that passing of that money will come about.
35:14
Speaker 1: Okay, So it's not automatic. You have to do something
35:16
Speaker 1: about it.
35:17
Speaker 3: You don't have to, but you should, you really should so,
35:20
Speaker 3: and it's not hard. So it's part of your super
35:21
Speaker 3: fun setup. Or you just do a binding nomination in
35:24
Speaker 3: favor of your spouse. It means that when that if
35:27
Speaker 3: you pass away, the trustee will automatically pay that money
35:31
Speaker 3: to the spouse rather than go and look for other
35:34
Speaker 3: people to give it to first, which is what they
35:36
Speaker 3: would do with no nomination.
35:37
Speaker 1: Okay, notice binding nomination, easy enough to do.
35:42
Speaker 2: One page, one tick wow spouse.
35:46
Speaker 1: Jason, thank you very much for joining us on the
35:49
Speaker 1: money Puzzle.
35:50
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure, it's been fun. Thank you.
35:54
Speaker 1: Jason Featherby from lun Wealth and will be back with
35:58
Speaker 1: the money Puzzle next week. I am Julie and Sprague,
36:00
Speaker 1: wealth editor at the Australian. For more insights on what
36:04
Speaker 1: the smart money is doing, you can go to the
36:05
Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au slash wealth