Latest / The Journey with Pastor Shaun Olsen / Episode 19 - The Role Of The Church In Spiritual Formation (ft. Charlie Tuttle)

Transcript

Episode 19 - The Role Of The Church In Spiritual Formation (ft. Charlie Tuttle) · The Journey with Pastor Shaun Olsen

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the journey.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Sean Olsen.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: And as you walk your faith life out, we just simply want to have conversations.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: After over two decades of ministry, I believe faith and discipleship is best served in a relational context.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to invite some of my closest friends and family into this office and have conversations about faith and life in the context of relationship.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: So do me a favor, like, share, and subscribe because your friends and family need to take this journey with you.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dive in to a conversation right now.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks and welcome back to The Journey, real life conversations with people who are real about the journey of faith.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: After 20 years of vocational ministry, I believe that discipleship is best handled in the concept of relationship.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can receive content, but it's conversations that sharpen us and shape us and change us.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you even go back to conversations you've had in your life, those are the ones that stick with you.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm super excited to welcome my pastor on to this show, to this podcast.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited for the conversation that we'll have.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Charlie Tuttle's been in my life for well over 20 years.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: He has shaped who I am as a pastor.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: He has shaped who I am as a leader, as a communicator, as a husband, as a father.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't be more proud to have him on this show in the intellect and the wisdom that he will bring.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: I say it like this: I believe Pastor Charlie has forgotten more scripture than I've ever known.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So super excited to have him here and walk this conversation out on the need for biblical authority in our lives.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the show, Pastor Charlie Tuttle.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, Sean, thanks so much for having me.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's really an honor to be with you on the podcast.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you and Angela, your family, you're just a bright spot in my heart.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: You have been, uh I still remember our first conversation when I first talked to you about coming to work for us.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: You were down in Florida.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so yeah, it's uh seeing you now.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I just it my heart is filled with joy for what the Lord is doing inside of you and uh through your ministry, through Angela, through the boys.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so proud of you.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's been cool just to watch you on this trajectory of just excellence and growth.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I brag about you all the time.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's an honor to be on the certainly wouldn't be here uh if that conversation back in 2003, I believe it was, maybe 2004, I think so didn't take place.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it started with I was too young, you didn't want to hire me, and that was okay.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to move to Texas.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: But but God and his sovereignty had incredible plans, and I think you're the best voice to give some context.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Charlie is the lead pastor at Genesis Church in McKinney, Texas.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Angela and I served on staff there for about four years in the early 2000 era.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and me and Pastor Charlie have been connected really ever since.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Charlie Tuttle is one of the overseers of Venture Church, the church that I have the opportunity to lead and pastor.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason that Pastor Charlie is on this episode today and a part of this conversation is this he is my pastor.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things, and I want to dialogue today with you, Charlie, is I think we have sacrificed really pastoring for preaching.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have sacrificed the idea of receiving content for receiving covering.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking about King David as he was anointed.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't anointed as a warrior, he wasn't anointed as a heart player, he wasn't anointed in the duties of his role, he was anointed in the authority of his role.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as a growing disciple, as you're walking this role out as a follower of Jesus, you're listening to this, you're trying to lean in and learn.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: One of the imperative things you will need in your faith journey is a pastor, is a covering, is someone to lead you as you are following Christ.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot do this from afar, you cannot get in off YouTube, and I'm not dismissing any of that.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: The reason Pastor Charlie's here is because he is my pastor.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he has that kind of authority in my life.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, Pastor, we want to lean in and have this conversation on the need for a maturing believer to have biblical authority and covering in their life.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Sean, I applaud your wisdom to tackle the subject because there's not a lot of guys right now that are doing this.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is a real absence in the body of Christ in the era of discipleship.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: We set a goal last year at Genesis to see a thousand people baptized and discipled over the next 10 years.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now, salvation decisions are much easier to get than discipleship um decisions.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a lot of people want an experience, but they don't want a journey.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't want to do the hard work and the heavy lifting.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think one of the challenges coming out of COVID is that everything is so digital that very few things are relational.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you watch students, you know, uh you go to a restaurant, you watch a family, and everybody's on their phone, everybody's texting.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody, and I understand there are times that you know that happens, whatever.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: But uh my my point being that it's a lot easier uh when you have a digital relationship, then you don't have to be authentic with anyone.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: And when you have a digital relationship with your church, then you people don't really see who you are.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're missing uh what is it, Proverbs 28, as iron sharpens iron, one person sharpens another.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's Proverbs 28, anywhere it's it's in there.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm just saying that we you miss that.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so what happens is you malform, you actually do what Jesus said, you deceive yourself.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so I always would read Matthew 7, where Jesus would say, Many will say to me, Lord, Lord, on that day, you know, did we not do this?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Depart from me and never knew you.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it wasn't a it's not a relationship built on knowledge, it's a relationship or it's a faith built on relationships, not a faith built on knowledge, it's a faith built on relationship.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of times we're missing that in the body of Christ, and we're really missing it with people interacting in the local church and with a pastor.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, the Great Commission, you know, the Great Commission goes, let's go make disciples.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it doesn't say let's make converts, let's go get a bunch of people saved.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And at Venture Church, uh, you've known my ministry for as long as almost anybody on this planet.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been aggressive about seeing lost people say yes to Jesus.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is a paramount purpose of the church that is a non-question, non-negotiable.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Every Sunday at Venture Church, we give people the opportunity to accept Christ.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the great commission biblically is to make disciples.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: In order to be discipled, you need a discipler, right?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and as I look at how Jesus, if if we're going to talk about making disciples, right?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the purpose of this podcast is we want to walk the discipleship journey out with people.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus had disciples, and what he did is so profound and so often missed.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: He walked with them the journey between a Jerusalem and a Canaan, the journey uh around sailing the Sea of Galilee and standing on the shore.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: It there's there's days they would walk.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the proximity gave permission for him to stop at the fig tree and go, hey, this tree's not bearing fruit.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about it.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we've done in society is we've taken the teaching side of Jesus and said, That's all I want.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I just want the teachings.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll figure out how to apply it myself.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll figure out how to incorporate this into my life all on my own.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was never meant to be that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Faith was not meant to be lived separate from one another.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was meant to be lived in relationship, and there's an authority in that relationship.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when you were in town a couple of years ago, and we were sitting at Java Burita, and you were asking me to do something uh in my professional career.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we had kind of gone back and forth.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was something that I honestly, transparently, I didn't agree with.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I told you that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I go, I I don't I don't want to do this.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't fit with my career aspirations in venture church.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't fit my life right now, the scheduling.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then I stopped and I said, You're my pastor.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you are asking me to pursue this, I will do it.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you said, I'm asking you.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the next day I sent the email, because you're my pastor, you have that authority in my life.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm reminded of Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, where he walks up to Peter and he wants to teach.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this is before we know he's the Messiah, before we know anything.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is a carpenter and a rabbi at this point.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's not the Messiah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And Peter been out fishing all night.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: He cleaned his nets, and Jesus says, All right, let's go out deep and cast.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if I'm Peter, I'm going, man, listen, I'm the fisherman, you're the carpenter, let's stay in our lanes.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: But Peter makes a profound statement in that.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Hey, I've done all of this.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, I am a professional and I have done everything I know how to do.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: But because you say so, I'll do it.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a need in our lives to give people, leaders, pastors, whomever, that kind of voice in our life saying, Hey, I've got to the extent of my knowledge and expertise, and I need to submit to your leading.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And Pastor, I'm honored that I've had the opportunity now for 20 plus years to submit my life to your leading.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I want you to lean in and talk to our listeners, our followers, even the people of Venture Church, and maybe a lot of the people of Genesis Church on the need to be pastored.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I want to I commend you, Sean, because I remember that conversation.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and here's the thing about having a mentor, a pastor, a spiritual covering.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: They see things through the Holy Spirit that we don't see.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: See, going back to your illustration with Peter and Jesus, so Jesus, it wasn't about fish, it was about Peter.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: And Jesus was wanting to draw something out within Peter that he he knew was there.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: But Peter didn't even realize.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why he told him, he said, You do you want to fish for fish, or do you want to fish for men?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: You follow me, I'll make you a fisherman of men.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that was an this epiphany for Peter.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is a moment where Peter is uh has two choices.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's two lanes.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lane of doing what he's always done, or there's a lane of destiny and doing what he's never done.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And Jesus sent him out.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was never about fish, it was always about drawing out.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't about catching fish, it was about catching what's inside of Peter.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: And when you when you have a covering, and I understand I've heard the horror stories of abuse and spiritual abuse and all that stuff, and it's a real deal.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not diminishing that in any way, but that is such a minority of leadership in the body of Christ.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we can't, this is what I would say about this.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: We can't let the patterns of this world rebuke the truths of God's word.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a pattern of abuse, but that does not remove the truths that is in God's words about us needing to be led.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And Paul comes back and he said to the Corinthians, he said, Listen, there's a lot of preachers, there's a lot of teachers, but you don't have very many fathers.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, I don't write to you as a voice, I write to you as a relationship.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sending my letters to you in relationship.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: And there's something about that when kids learn how to be adults by watching their parents.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so that doesn't mean that everything that you and Angela do that's right, your boys will take on.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean everything you do that's incorrect, they'll take on.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: But over time, they're going to rise to the level of voice in their life.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: And when you are engaged in a church and you are in fellowship with believers, you're you're seeing faith modeled out in front of you.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I remember as a young man, even as a kid, you know, I grew up in this thing, and there's a lot of things about church I don't like.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Even as a pastor, there's a lot of stuff I don't like.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: So people go, I don't like this, I don't like that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't either.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't either.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: But it's okay.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's never about preference, it's about growth.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you when you realize that, I there were people that were iconic in my life.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I was in seventh grade, and this guy named Grant Bevins, he was my Sunday school teacher, man, back in the day when we had Sunday school, you know.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, but you know what?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: He showed up every week, and I guarantee you, he didn't get my attention the majority of Sundays.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: But the Sundays he did, those were transformational.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I look back on that, and I would I would say that Grant Bevins is probably one of the most transformational people in my life.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't recognize it then.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, you know, I it it's I I recognized it when I was in my 40s.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So do the math.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: 30 years afterwards, I recognized how the value of his voice.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lot of times you show up to church and you you don't even know what you're getting because we're spirit beings.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're not we're not physical beings that go to church for a spiritual experience.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: We are spiritual beings on earth having a physical experience, and so you don't know everything your spirit's picking up.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: But but there's a point in time when it calibrates, and you look back and you go, wow, that word back then is a word I need now, or that was sown, but now I see the fruit in my life.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even realize it was growing.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And there has to be a place where people are discipled.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the Jesus chose a local church, Jesus chose a gathering.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus only talked, he only mentioned the church twice in the on his ministry on earth.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yep.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because it was something he was building.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: But then you look at the writings of Paul, you look at Peter, you look at James, you look at the New Testament, John, all of that.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all about the local body of believers.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the American church is spoiled because we have not lived.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: The Bible was written when Christians were being murdered, they were being thrown in prison, they were economically separated, you know, and while they're being economically oppressed, John writes them and says, Man, you're gonna prosper and be in health as your soul prospers.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: So keep your mind, your will, and your emotions right so it doesn't mess up the faith activity that's happening in your spirit.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: God wants you to prosper, you know.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh James writes a persecuted church and says, just it's the testing of your faith.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're fleeing for your life.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Consider it a test for your faith.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, that doesn't give you the license to go sin.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: And keep in mind that every good and perfect gift, every piece of bread you get, every piece of favor you get, that's a gift from the Father in heaven who gives good stuff to you.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so these guys were reframing or not reframing, but helping these believers frame the reality that they were in.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And when you remove yourself from a local church, when you remove yourself from a covering from a pastor, you lose perspective.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and if you don't have that, it's hard.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge growing uh trend in the American church is I can follow Jesus on my own.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need a church.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can catch some podcasts, this is one of them.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can catch a YouTube message, I can read a book, I can study the scriptures myself.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in doing that, what we've lost is we've lost the inception of the church.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It is a covered relational movement.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And while you may be able to get saved in that, I promise you, you will not grow in that.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because what you'll do is you'll apply the information at your preference and at your pace.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I look at our relationship, and I came into your or you rather, you came into my life when I was young.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, goodness gracious, I was probably in my early 20s when I came to work for you.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and God was forging a relationship I would need well into my 40s because I would lose my dad along the way, and I needed a voice of wisdom.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I genuinely believe that God allowed me to work for you so that we could build a relationship that would impact venture church and this podcast and all the other things because I need a covering.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And absolutely.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: What I would say, go ahead.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: What I would say to the people listening on this podcast or watching on this podcast is if you can't point to your covering, you need to know this right now.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: You are absolute at risk for more spiritual attack and spiritual immaturity than someone that can point to their covering.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I will even go back to something that you alluded to the idea that, well, people have abused their authority.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: The church has abused it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Every pastor's not perfect.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, none of us are actually.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Ask our spouses, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're not.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's real life.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh if if you've put a person on that kind of platform, you've already set yourself up to be hurt.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Even Paul said in Philippians, he said, Hey, listen, some guys are out doing the ministry out of selfish ambition.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Go back and read it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's chapter one.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he's like, hey, some people are preaching Christ out of jealousy and envy and all this other stuff.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Hey, their motives aren't pure.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, but what matters is that Christ is being preached, the church is being formed.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at the guys that do it wrong, you look at the women that do it wrong, you look at the leaders that are doing it wrong, it'll never be done right in your life.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you are the one that is being hurt for that.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: You need a pastor, you need a covering on this journey.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I'm sure there's some lousy managers at Walmart, but I still shop there.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's some lousy automobile managers, but I still buy cars at dealerships.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure, you know, you can go into anywhere.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I understand I'm not, I am not giving a get out of jail free to our peers and all of that.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think there's a higher standard for us.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: But Paul says it best.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: He said, We're we're but mere men.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so there is a failure that happens in being human.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I I look at it like this, um, and how you touched on it uh on just people downloading podcasts or whatever.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in the absence of the body of Christ, there's there's a couple of things that are missing in your life.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, your formation is being formed through your own bias.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's true.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're actually creating blinders for yourself.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Second of all, uh, nowhere in the Bible does it say that you lay hands on yourself.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm not against that.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, there's times I've spoken to my body, prayed over myself, whatever.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: But what I am saying is that uh James said, if if if you're sick, if there's sin, you go and you meet with other people.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus said there's a way for offense to be handled, and it involves leadership out of the church.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's a role that the body of Christ plays in your spiritual formation, in your health, and in your success and significance that you cannot get on your own.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: You just can't.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, I there's things I don't like about my church, and I'm the pastor, so I get it.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I will tell you that I would take an imperfect church over a perfect podcast any time of day.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's so good.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because there has to be a place where the body of Christ, where the faith is modeled out in front of you.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: And there are times that there are failures within the body of Christ.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I was talking to one of our team members yesterday, Marco, he's our kids' pastor.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And uh God's opening some doors for him, and he's beginning to be approached by people in the committee and schools to serve on different boards and stuff.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I told him, I said, the Lord is testing you at the table.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I said, these seem like maybe insignificant tables or maybe tables that you can't make an impact, but that's not that's not why you're there.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: You're not there for now, you're there for 10 years from now because to who much is given, much is required.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the Lord wants to see how you're gonna be able to operate around a table right now where you don't have influence.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: And how are you gonna make a contribution?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, if you're gonna sit in the seat, then do the work.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Do the work.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: The seat's not free, so do the work.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the conversation, he told me, goes, I really appreciate you saying this because he said, This gives me perspective as to what I'm doing that I'm I'm actually earning, and I don't know that earning is the right word, but but showing yourself faithful and excellent so that the Lord can open up other doors because small doors open into big rooms.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So you never know.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Don't ever judge room by the Sides of the door.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he told me this.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: He said, You know, no other pastors told me anything like that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the third pastor he's worked for.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I really appreciate you sharing that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's being able to give perspective that you don't have.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm in my early 60s.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm working on my master's.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going for my doctorate.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody's asking, why?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Why now?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Why now?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Because I got to keep growing.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and I still sit down with mentors that are 20 and 30 years older than me.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because I need to know what have they done when they were at this season of their life, what was right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: What did they battle?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: How did they win?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what's there?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: What do I not know?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's always what you don't know that messes you up.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and that's why I applaud you and your success adventure, because you have not just myself, but you have other great men.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: You have some contemporaries around you, but you also have some people that have journeyed beyond you that can look back with perspective and out of a heart of love, not a heart of judgment.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the things that people miss when they're not in the local church, is that they really miss being mentored, discipled, and even admonished or corrected out of a heart of love.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have a broken home system, if you don't have a right relationship with your father, then you probably are you're at a higher uh percentage of having a dysfunctional relationship with your heavenly father.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes it's just good having people that are there in your life.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: We have a lady in our church, she's the top cheer coach in our city, and um and that was over a prophetic word that was given to her 10 years ago at our church.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I uh the Lord gave me a prophetic word for.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I told her, I said, you know, she was just trying to get 10 girls on her program.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: I said, There'll be a day that you have 100, 150 girls, you're the number one cheer coach in the city.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, she told me last Sunday, she said, I still remember that prophetic word.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And she just looked at me, she said, You're not a pastor to me, you're a spiritual father to me.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and man, you know, that sounds like a bouquet, it sounds like a compliment, but for me, it just feels more weighty.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's what a covering does.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: A covering uh cares for you, will speak to you, but that covering carries the weight.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you're not at a church where that pastor can carry the weight of that mantle, then that doesn't mean that you you need to give up church.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: It just may mean that you're not with the right shepherd.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Every sheep has a shepherd, every shepherd has a sheep.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: But before you go church shopping, okay, I would really probably take a look at what you're bringing to the table.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um, because discipleship is about being able to receive, not just hear, but receive.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I would say this it's pastoring, not preferencing.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just because they said something you don't like, just because they did a song you don't like, just because the music's too loud, the music's too soft, the content wasn't what you thought it should be.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I disagree with this, all that other stuff.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't give you the open door to walk away from being shepherded.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I would even go further and say if that is your posture in this season of your life, um, you need to probably do some studying on humility.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that may sound bold, but sometimes we need to look at if, listen, if it's not sinful, if it's not unbiblical, then we're down to preference.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And God hasn't called a pastor to build a church they like, He's called to a pastor to build a church that is effective in that community.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: I tell our staff here at Venture Church all the time: my goal isn't to build my favorite church, my goal is to build God's kingdom that is effective in this area.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that also means for the people of Venture Church and the people of Genesis Church or the people of the church that you attend, the pastor isn't called to build a church you like.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: The pastor is called to build a church that reaches the community and builds your faith.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And building of faith isn't always about your preference.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to be pastored, not preferenced.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I will absolutely, that's a great statement.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll go back to Peter with uh Jesus, right?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's funny, in Peter's life, there are two miraculous catches.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: The first one happens in the story we referenced where Jesus comes out, he teaches people from uh Peter's boat.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Let's go out a little further, cast your nets.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And go back and read it.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: It actually says the catch was so big that Peter's nets began to break.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And in other words, the miracle was larger than his capacity.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is important.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: The miracle was larger than his capacity.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: I believe this right now that God has miracles in your life as you listen to this that are larger than your current capacity.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Peter walks with Jesus for three years.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Peter is back in the boat after denying Christ, after the resurrection.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is standing on the shore and he sees Peter and they make another miraculous catch.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what's interesting in this accord, Peter's nets begin to stretch, but they do not break.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: He walked with a leader, he walked with Jesus, he walked with a pastor, and his capacity increased so he could hold the miracle.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: God has miracles in your life, but the process to holding them may be walking with the leader long enough that they can stretch you.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that's great insight.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing that I would add to that is this that Jesus showed up to Peter after Peter had basically had a faith failure, sure, not just once in denying Jesus, but even in dealing with the resurrection.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, none of the disciples believed except Mary Magdalene.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and she's like, You got to go look, you know, and so Peter and John take off to go look.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: But Jesus appears to them and they're all in the room.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Matthew brings us out, they're afraid.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so Peter is going through this battle, this tension on the inside, going, If is this real what I've been in?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do now?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: All of this stuff.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and so and the disciples were not a tight group, you know.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've studied them for years, and I can tell you that they were very diverse.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they weren't all friends, and they argued a lot.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so Peter only chose five of his friends to go fishing with them.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a group that he left out, sure.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so while they're in the boats, Jesus shows up, and Jesus has this heart-to-heart conversation with them afterwards, you know, and there in John, he says, Do you love me?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and and Jesus said, Do you agape me?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and Peter comes back and he said, I, you know, there's three Greek words for for love there, you know, the agape, the what is it, philia or something, something along those lines.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not gonna.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: But but Peter comes back and he says, I I don't God love you, but I brotherly love you.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: And Jesus comes back and he asked him the second time, Do you agape me?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, I come back and I brotherly love you.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so Jesus on the third time said, Do you brotherly love me?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: So Peter could not get up to the level where Jesus was.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so Jesus in that moment met Peter at the level he's at.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: He said, Well, if you brotherly love me, then will you feed my sheep?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a really interesting structure that happens there in the original language, this tension that's there, because Peter just doesn't feel worthy.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: And there there are times you need a leader, you need a pastor that sees something inside of you and calls that spirit man, that spirit woman forward.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're just sitting there listening to podcasts, you're just sitting there listening to YouTube, you know, in the Dallas area where I'm at, North Dallas, man, there's a lot of mega churches.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: We have seven, seven megachurches that run over 30,000 people, and they're all within a 20-minute drive of each other.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh a medium-sized megachurch here is 15,000 people, 10,000 people.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's a level of church like you ain't is.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, North Dallas got them up.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, it's it's crazy, you know.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and so there's you can go get anything you want.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the things that's hurt discipleship is consumerism.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's so good.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because people want to go in and they they want to have church based upon their time.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'll give you 60 minutes plus my drive time.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: And boy, you better bring me something to worship better.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I need to feel the presence of God.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be able to connect.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's something going on that uh interests me, I'll sign up and give me a word in 25 minutes or less, and uh and and then make me feel good when you pray for me, and then we're gone.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're gone.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to, you know, where that whatever.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And uh consumerism has really hurt discipleship.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I live with that.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I see that, and I see the effects of it in our uh city, and I see the effects of it in our church.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: And what's what's interesting is is that when you look at the moral failures or the ministry failures of of these guys that passed a really large churches.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, last year one of our news stations let off, and this is what they said, well, there's been another moral failure at a megachurch, and this is failure number 16 in the last 18 months.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how the news story was led across the DFW Metroplex.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so what happens is when you when the people want shallow and you as a pastor shift to shallow, you put your own ministry at risk.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're not pulling out the depth and you're not giving them what they need.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and I listen, I'm not against a 60-minute service.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: I understand all that stuff.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: But what I am saying is that there has to be lanes of ministry within a church that um goes beyond convenience.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we see that.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And showing up and being in the body of Christ, uh, you need to go through that.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: You need to go through the the discomfort of the weather, you need to go through the inconvenience of the traffic, you need to go through the man, it's Sunday morning and we're not sleeping in, you know, and we're doing this and this, but we're going to church.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: You need to go through that because going through that is part of your spiritual formation and what God wants to do.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's called prepping the soil of your heart.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: We spent most of our time on this episode from a church attender's perspective, but you just said something that I feel is relevant should a church leader, whether you are a volunteer leader, a small group leader, uh, you are a vocational pastor that you're tuning into this content.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what I would tell you too.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're anointed to be an authority.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: You're not called to live by their applause.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of the failures we're seeing in church leaders, whether it be at a small group leader stage or a megachurch pastor, I don't think the size of the room matters.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think the calling on their life and the anointing on their life matters.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of leaders that are sacrificing anointing for applause.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what I would tell both sides of this: if you are a called leader, you need to depend on the anointing of God and walk in the authority he has given you.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: You are not called to receive applause from men.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: You are called to lead men in the kingdom of God, men and women, let's not be sexists, lead men and women in the kingdom of God.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: That is your anointing and that is your call.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when we sacrifice that for the applause of men, we have made the people we're leading the God of our lives, and we are not discipling.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if we are in that kind of church, we're not being discipled.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually think that is the one of the top crises in the American church is we have sacrificed spirit for seeking.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh, well, they're per this person seeking a 73-degree room and uh loud music, and that's what we're going to do.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want the spirit of God to lead our church, every leader in our church to be anointed by God so that the people that call venture church home are being discipled, they're being led by godly leaders.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'll even take you back to uh Peter's redemption, right?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: You were talking about uh there were only a couple people on that boat.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's a few practical thoughts in that story that are really important, okay?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Peter at that point in his life and ministry had gone back to fishing.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: He had disqualified himself from the ministry.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call it like it is, but he had John in the boat.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when John saw Jesus, it's important to understand, go back and study it.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Peter didn't see Jesus, John recognized Jesus.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have a person in the boat that will point you to Jesus, you'll never get there on your own.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And John says, look, it's the Messiah.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: So Peter jumps out of the boat, he swims in, he gets to the Messiah, goes through the whole interaction you just did, the agape, you know, do you love me?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you love me?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do you love me?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Go back and read.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's a really bizarre detail in that story.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: It tells you the exact number of fish that Peter caught.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: The exact number.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: The exact number.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, either that's fisherman lore, you know, the fish was this big, you know, we caught five fish, we caught 10 fish, you know, and that's how fishermen and or it's an intentional moment of scripture.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to believe that scripture is intentional.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't fisherman lore, right?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Peter going, the fish was this big.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: It says specifically they caught 153 fish.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's the number.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Go back and read it.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, why 153 fish?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of fish, first of all.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I was standing on the shores of Sea of Galilee in Israel, I was standing with a Jewish rabbi.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Now, what you need to know is in the original faith and the original language, names and words had number association.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Number association.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: So he's breaking this all down for us, and he goes, So Jesus goes, Hey, do you love me?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you love me?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you love me?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And off in the background, you've got John counting fish.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: 151, 152, 153.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the number 153 would directly correlate to the words, I am.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: I am.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's powerful.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: You have Jesus not just going, I'm redeeming you, I'm showing you who I am.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of us want to consume our redemption without submitting to the Lordship of Jesus and godly authority in our life.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it was in that moment that Jesus said, I'm not just here to redeem you, I'm here to lead you.
• 37:22
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm showing you who I am.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you cannot, I promise you this, as you listen to this episode, as you're walking this faith journey out, you can't get moments like that without a good, godly leader in your life.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can't get it without a John that's going to point you to Jesus.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't get it without a Holy Spirit-filled, godly led pastor.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm all for.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, this is what I believe.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Content teaches us, covering leads us.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we got to kind of wrap this conversation up.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm all listen, go get all the content you can.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to all the podcasts.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not against them.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, go watch all your YouTube preachers.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, that is not a replacement.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a supplement.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, it's like the fitness gurus that go, I just drink protein shakes all the time.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a supplement.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's not your substance.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're eating your chicken, you're eating your eggs, you're eating your steak, you're, you're getting that.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have supplements that go on top of that.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: The content that is so readily available to us today is supplemental to the body of Christ.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is not meant to be the primary focus.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because when your pastor of your local church that you're sitting at on Sunday, here's what I believe that's an anointed covering, not just anointed content.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a huge difference.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: There is a huge difference.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: And um, in respect to time, let me just say this.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: There are some people out there, maybe you're saying, listen, you that sounds good, but you guys don't understand.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was at a church, I got hurt, or there's a real anti-honor culture out there that uh honor is is dangerous.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and let me tell you something.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't honor whatever you don't honor, you don't receive.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't honor what you don't have any.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't honor uh influence, you don't have any.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh to whom much is given, much is required.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so honor is um is not optional.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so there is a place where you come in and say, this is gonna be my pastor, this is gonna be my church.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not expecting perfection, but I am gonna receive covering.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's areas where there's conflict, then this is the place for me to grow, and this is a place for us to have honest discussions about that.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not a place for you to exit.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if the Holy Spirit doesn't give you a leading or uh a voice to separate yourself and maybe look for something else, you need to stay exactly where you're at and you need to work through the conflict or work through the issues that are there.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: But if if there if you can't come in and uh and allow there to be a covering in your life, then you're you're living your faith out with your own personal bias, and uh that usually doesn't work out well.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it reminds me, I'll give you a quick a quick scripture to go along with that.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so here's the the the difference between knowledge that you can receive and leaders that you will follow.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna ask all of our listeners right now, if you can't point to your pastor, and maybe you do go to a larger church.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not against larger churches.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think larger churches are incredible, God's favor is on their house.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe maybe your pastor is a small group leader.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm good with that.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just because we're using the word pastor does not mean it is the paid lead pastor of the church.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Your pastor could be a team leader, it could be a small group leader, but what it is is it's an authority in your life that is helping shape your faith understanding.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: You need that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole goal of this, right?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: You need that.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the rich young ruler comes to Jesus, right?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, What do I have to do to inherit eternal life?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus, knowing who he is, says, Hey, follow all of the Ten Commandments, knowledge, power, knowledge, have the knowledge, do the knowledge.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And rich young ruler says, I've done all of that.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then Jesus gives him an invitation that most of us miss.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Fine then, go sell everything.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that important?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because look at the name of this guy.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: He is the rich young ruler.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was about identity, not wealth.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Go trade your identity in and come follow me.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Corinthians says you are a new creation in Christ.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: You have a new identity.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: There was an identity issue here.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And in order for him to walk in his new identity, he was having to submit to Jesus.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it says he walked away sad.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the language that is used in the Bible here, come follow me, Jesus uses exactly 13 times.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: 12 of them were disciples.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: One was the rich young ruler, and he walked away from his call and his purpose because he would not submit to the leadership of Jesus.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: He had the knowledge, he knew the Ten Commandments, he had applied them himself, which means this.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: He had gone as far in faith as he could on his own, but he would not submit to a leader leading him.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I'm talking about Jesus, and he is perfect.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: And chances are your spiritual leader is not perfect, even mine is not perfect.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And he's on this podcast, but I love him dearly.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love him dearly.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I am grateful, as I am now in ministry 23 years, I can say with abundant clarity, I do not stand on my own shoulders.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: I stand on the shoulders of my pastor who prayed for me when I was a knucklehead, who was patient with me, who was so much grace with me.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because in my early 20s, when I worked for Pastor Charlie, I did a lot of really dumb things.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I had a pastor who believed in me.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he looked into Angela and I and saw things in our anointing that in ourselves we didn't see.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I remember sitting on Pastor Charlie's roof as we were looking at his roof after a storm.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: He was teaching me the five-fold ministries and he looked at me and he goes, You have an anointing of an apostle.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know where the word apostle was in the Bible at the time.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm being facetious.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Of course I did.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: But he was calling things out of my spirit 20 years before they would be fulfilled.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now we get the opportunity to record this podcast that hundreds of people view.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a church that is growing and exploding, and we have all this impact that God has made.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what it took to get me to this purpose of my this place in my ministry?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: It took you, Pastor Charlie.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as I wrap up this episode, there's not enough thanks I can give.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's not enough honor I can give to you for your faithfulness to God, first and foremost, to your tenure in ministry, to your knowledge and dedication to God.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: God's word for people like me.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I am grateful to have a pastor.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't just listen to you preach.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: You are a voice of influence in my life.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that every listener in this podcast, whether it be this year, next year, five years from now, that you're able to pause and go, Who have I given that kind of influence in my life?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if the answer is no one, I promise you, your story will end like the rich young ruler because arrogance and pride will squeak into your life.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you will never be able to walk into your purpose on your own.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: The faith isn't built like that.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: You need con, you need covering, not just content.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, Pastor Charlie, before we run, give them a couple books maybe they can read or some faith disciplines they can exercise, or just some final words of encouragement.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um I'm in a unique season of my life because I'm sitting back down and listening to podcasts and I'm learning and growing for the next 30 years of my life.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't believe that if you read Psalm 90, everybody says, well, I've only got 70 or 80 years.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: But that was written by Moses and 244 funerals every day, children of Israel going around the desert for 40 years.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: I go to Genesis 6, where you'll live for 120 years.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to plan to continue to grow and take care of your body and and all of that stuff.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: I would, I would, I don't know when it comes to discipleship, the stuff that I'm reading right now is going to comport over to where we're going with the podcast.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm probably gonna let you fill in those blanks.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: But um this is the one thing that that I would say.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: I I would tell people this, that your attachment to the body of Christ is the way that you, one of the ways that you attach to Christ.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the only way, but it's the way that Jesus said that you're going to attach.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're a part of a body.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you remove yourself from the body, then you are removing yourself from the ability to work in the miraculous.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're removing yourself to receive the miraculous, you're removing yourself from a table of significance that God ordained for you before the foundation of the world.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would encourage you to step up and to step into um embracing a covering, no matter if it's comfortable or not, embrace that covering.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: I would also encourage you to um find the right voices that are going to be speaking into your life.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: No matter the size of the church is really not important.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: It is the fit and being able to come into a church and be able to receive.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that your pastor may not know you personally does not mean that God can't speak through that pastor and build something within your life.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: But discipleship comes when there's more than one.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you've got to get to a point to where it's more than just you.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, Sean, if if it's all right with you, I'd like to just be able to uh to pray um over the listeners and pray over you and Angela.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: So let me give one thought before you close us out in prayer, then I'll let you close us out in prayer.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: First and foremost, we you just talked about you can't do this alone.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna encourage all of our listeners, take a moment, share this conversation with somebody, and have a conversation about it with them.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just consume it, share it with them.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Subscribe to the channel so you have future conversations that we can walk you out.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: We release an episode of this once a month, and it's important to consume content in community.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the word I believe the Holy Spirit just gave me to end this.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't in my notes, and it's not something I've ever said before.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: I believe the reason content consumption is so important or so prevalent right now in society is because it's convenient.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what I would say to you if faith isn't inconvenient, it doesn't impact your life at all.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: There is an inconvenience on getting up on a Sunday morning and going to church.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: There is an inconvenience to it.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many things that are vying for your time.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason we consume content is simply because it is convenient.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can listen to this podcast on your drive to work.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: It requires a discipline and an intentionality to show up on a Sunday morning.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to give you two encouragements.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Go to church this Sunday.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go to church this Sunday.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: And don't just receive the content, receive the covering.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful that you took some time to check us out on the journey.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, share, and subscribe this content.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Pastor Charlie, if you'd do us a favor, pray over our listeners, uh, our leadership, both of us, our families, our wives.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: Father, I just thank you so much for Sean and Angela.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I thank you, Lord, for leading him to do this podcast because this is a way of a voice like what John said.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a voice calling out into the desert.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: I am calling people to Christ and doing it across the technology, across the media, reaching out.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Father, for every person that's listening right now will listen in the future.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Father, we pray that Christ be formed in them, that through the body of Christ, through teaching, through relationships, through covering, Christ be fully formed within them.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: And Father, I pray for Sean and Angela.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, thank you, Lord.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: I pray for the boys, for Venture Church.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is something that was put within your heart before the foundation of the world.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Jesus, you brought it out at this point in time.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: You brought Sean and Angela into South Carolina and you said, I'm going to do something new here that's never been done.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you created Venture Church.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Father, we're so grateful for that.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: And the Holy Spirit, I just pray just greater anointing and greater connection.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: And as this church continues to grow, anybody that is down in the low country, I mean, they just need to go to venture church.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter if it's a 30, 40, 50-minute drive.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: They need to go to venture church and just see, take part of what the Holy Spirit's doing.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Father, I pray your hand upon them in the name of Jesus Christ.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Father, we give you thanks because you do all things well.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus, we magnify you, we glorify you.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: And Holy Spirit, we are just here to listen to whatever you've got to say to us.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: So speak to us today, we pray in Jesus' name.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, listen, you guys go have the best week of your life and go change the world.