Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / J.A. Adande on how Shaq and Kobe Turned Chaos Into a Dynasty | 05.19

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J.A. Adande on how Shaq and Kobe Turned Chaos Into a Dynasty | 05.19 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Wave.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time presented by
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: FanDuel Predicts. My name is Bomani Jones. Thanks for listening
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. We're going to
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: talk about the.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Shaq-Kobe Lakers three-peat with the co-host of Dynastic, J.A. Donde.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: What's going on, man?
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: What's going on, Bo? Fun to go back and revisit
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: this time and fun to be on here with you.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to tell the people what J.A. mean
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: by revisit this time. We're going to talk about the
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Shaq-Kobe Lakers, the buildup once we get there and everything else.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: This man J.A. come on like, you know, I was
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: going back reading my clips for that time and you
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: know your boy was on top of his game. That's like,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about the peak of the Lakers.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: He's like, let's talk about the peak of the Dodgers.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: The peak of me. The peak of me. Well, you know,
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: like I, I did some things back in that time.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: But what it was, it's funny. Like, A, I was,
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: you know, in the midst, right in there for everything.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: And 2001 in particular, that was the only time I
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: actually did every round with the Lakers because usually I'd
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: break off for a series and go do something on
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: the economy.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Because you were a columnist.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: You know, to set up the next season. I was
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: a columnist, exactly. I wasn't on the beat. I was
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: on the beat actually in 2004, 03, 04, that crazy
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: year with, you know, Gary Payton and Karl Malone in
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: that hectic year. But, yeah, this was the first time
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  Speaker 3: that I went with the Lakers all the way through
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  Speaker 3: their championship run in the 2001 playoffs. So, you know,
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: that one in particular, which I think we're going to
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: focus on. Because also, like, it's kind of back in
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: the news because low-key, Oklahoma City this year, Might be
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: on a 2001 Lakers kind of run.
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  Speaker 1: Right, right.
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  Speaker 2: No, and look, I think the buildup to getting to
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: this team winning championships, I think is very much so
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  Speaker 2: forgotten in the discussions that we have about them at
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: this point. Like, it's really interesting to look back at them, like,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: to figure out Kobe's role in this and everything else.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: But 1996... There was no way to really, I don't
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: think there was any way to truly realize they drafted Kobe,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Shaq signed in free agency, that those two were really
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: going to matter that much. Like, I think people forget
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: that Kevin Garnett was the first of this new era
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: of guys coming straight from high school. And he had
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: a pretty good year, right? But it was not, he
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: did not set the world on fire. And it was
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: a slow start. They started coming together. after the all-star
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: break but he was seven feet tall we're talking about
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: kobe at six foot six like the guys who were
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: doing this typically had been big men and it made
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: sense he was seven feet tall all right you already
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: had the head start a six foot six two guard
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  Speaker 2: who only who went 13 in that draft that draft
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: was loaded but we did not go into that draft
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  Speaker 2: thinking it was the all-time draft that it ultimately became
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: and kobe still went 13 in this but They show
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: up at the same time and it was a grind
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: for them to get to the place of being such
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: championship contenders. They took a lot of scars along the
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: way where I feel like we talk about the bad
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: boy Pistons doing that and we talk about Jordan doing that,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: but we don't really talk about it, man.
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  Speaker 1: This was a long march before they became champions.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Maybe one of the reasons we don't talk about Bo
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: is because we still had the last answer, right? So
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: it's funny that You know, the Kobe Shaq era starts.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: So 1996 is also when Jordan signs that huge, that
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: was a huge free agency summer, right?
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Lonzo Mornings was a free agency. Shaq, like all these David,
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Patrick Ewing might've been, you know, it felt like all
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: the David Falk guys in particular were, which Shaq was not. But,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: you know, so many guys were free agents, including Michael Jordan.
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  Speaker 3: Jordan signs the first of the huge contracts that, you know,
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: those $ 30 million plus contracts.
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  Speaker 1: By the way, that nobody else got for like 10 years.
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  Speaker 3: Right, right. So we get that. And the Shaq deal
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  Speaker 3: felt like a big deal, right? That it felt like
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  Speaker 3: it shifted some of the power. That's how big Shaq
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: was at that time. The Eastern Conference had been dominant,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: and now this brings some balance to the force, so
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: to speak. where you've got Shaq in the West, Michael
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Jordan in the East, and they never meet up, in
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: part because the Utah Jazz. Talk about two guys who
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: had to slog it out, a superstar combo that had
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: to slog it out. Karl Malone and John Stockton, who've
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: been together since the mid-' 80s, they're finally getting their day,
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  Speaker 3: you know, and they finally reached the finals. And they
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  Speaker 3: were two of the guys that kept Shaq and Kobe
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  Speaker 3: from ascending early on, as did the Spurs in 99.
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  Speaker 3: You know, much more veteran teams. So two things about
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: the league back then. It was an older league. The
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: average age of an NBA player is dropped by a
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: full year from then to now, in part because the
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  Speaker 3: influx of high school guys has started coming in and
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: then one and done guys. And then, yeah, you had
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  Speaker 3: these veteran teams. It was their turn. And it's a
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  Speaker 3: shame we never got Shaq and Kobe against Jordan's Bulls.
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  Speaker 3: They made it to the conference finals one year, and
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  Speaker 3: I think that's when the Jazz got them one of
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: the times. So we don't think of that as the
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: same era, right? We think of those Bulls, that Bulls three-peat,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: but Kobe and Shaq and a lot of the other
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: guys on that team, Robert Ory and Rick Fox and
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Derek Fisher, a lot of the key figures were there.
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  Speaker 3: The key change that started the run was the arrival
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  Speaker 3: of Phil Jackson in 1999 to coach the team.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the 96 part is interesting because I.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Also think it's very easy to forget.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Shaq was 24 when he got to L.A. He was
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  Speaker 2: only in Orlando for four years. He did not even
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: get to his 25th birthday on that team. So when
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: he shows up, he's 24, and it is a team
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  Speaker 2: full of almost.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Guys, right?
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  Speaker 2: Eddie Jones... Nick Van Axel, Cedric Sabalos, right? Like, it
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  Speaker 2: was a bunch of guys.
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  Speaker 3: Who had won a couple series on their.
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  Speaker 1: Own, right? They had, right?
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  Speaker 3: Including knocking off a number one seed, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: They won that series in 95 against Seattle, right? I
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  Speaker 2: think it's like one of the big ones that jumps out.
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  Speaker 2: But they were, they had a bunch of pretty good guys,
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  Speaker 2: and then they got shacked, and they still never really
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: got too far.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Past pretty good, right?
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  Speaker 2: Like, they had some moments and times where they looked
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: like they really were about to make it happen. It's
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: not until really like 98, That Kobe becomes like a
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  Speaker 2: full on competitor, like a real contributor to this team.
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  Speaker 2: So they had they were super young, but still had
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  Speaker 2: scars like that. That 2000 finals version of Shaquille O'Neal
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  Speaker 2: is 28 years old.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Like he had just entered peak around the moment, like
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  Speaker 2: when Phil Jackson gets there in 99. That is when
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  Speaker 2: Shaq does this thing that we saw him do multiple
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  Speaker 2: times in his career. We saw Joel Embiid do this also.
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  Speaker 2: I want to say the first year that Doc Rivers
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  Speaker 2: got there. That first year, let me show you what
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  Speaker 2: I got. And they're never.
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  Speaker 1: Quite caring as much about it after.
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  Speaker 2: But after they had lost to the Jazz and they
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  Speaker 2: had lost to the Spurs, right? Because their Spurs rivalry
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  Speaker 2: becomes weird because it's kind of bookended. Spurs here, Spurs there,
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  Speaker 2: Laker domination in the middle. But they had gone through
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: all those things and then it gets to 2000 and
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  Speaker 2: they won, I want to say, 67 games that year.
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  Speaker 2: And Shaq was unreal. It is possible that somebody played
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  Speaker 2: center better than Shaquille O'Neal played in the year 99-2000.
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  Speaker 2: It's just impossible to imagine if you watch Shaq as
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  Speaker 2: he did it.
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  Speaker 3: Bo, it's possible we weren't allowed to see it, like,
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: you know, because he was doing some Wilt Chamberlain stuff,
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: you know, and on defense, he was doing some Bill
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: Russell stuff. So one of my favorite moments from Shaq
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  Speaker 3: defensively that time. So actually I did go on the
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: road with them in like January, 2000. It might've been
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: just cause like, Hey, these guys are pretty good. I
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: think they got on a winning streak. Like it was possible.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: They were going to go after that Laker 33 game streak.
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  Speaker 3: So they sent me on the road with them and
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Milwaukee and the, the Milwaukee bucks just refused to go
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: into pain, you know, and Ray Allen came in one
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  Speaker 3: time and shot a hook shot. Have you ever recalled
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: seeing Ray Allen shooting a hook shot, but that's what
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  Speaker 3: they're doing. So I'm in the Bucks locker room afterward.
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  Speaker 3: I go to Sam because I said, Sam, you guys
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: seem like you were kind of hesitant to go in
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: the paint there. And he goes, yeah, they got Shaq
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  Speaker 3: in that motherfucker. That was the explanation. And that's what
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: it came down to. That's how dominant was Shaq. And
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  Speaker 3: you can still see it. Even in the finals against Indiana,
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: there's a game where Shaq just feels like he's going
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: up and blocking shots at the top of the backboard.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: He was monstrous on both ends.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: The demerits against Shaq in the all-time ledger. Never made
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: first team all defense. Never won a rebounding title. Two
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: things that feel strange to say out loud, but part
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  Speaker 2: of it, to be fair to him, there's a bit
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: of overlap with Dennis Rodman.
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  Speaker 1: Like, there were guys who did nothing but.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: Dikembe Mutombo.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Dikembe Mutombo.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Like, guys who had no other responsibility other than getting rebounds.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: And also, to be fair, one thing that interferes with
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: getting rebounds is when the guy who takes the most
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: shots on the team makes 60% of his shots. Um, that, that,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: that can like cut down on the number of the
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: potential that you have of doing these things.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: But that year, he didn't get those Moses Malone rebounds.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: They throw it close, get the rebound, miss it up close,
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: get the rebound, put it back in. Right.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: That guy did it.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: He was also, but to be fair to him, he
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: did not make first team all defense, but he was
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: the second place defensive player of the year that year
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: in 2000.
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  Speaker 1: Like he was just Shaq as a player.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: I think this is also before he got like soft, big,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: you go look at those clips of Shaq in his
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: early to mid twenties. Like when he first gets to
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: the Lakers, it is absurd what a physical specimen he is.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Like he is Jack diesel running.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: The floor has incredible footwork, shockingly good touch around the
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: rim considering how bad he was at the free throw line.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: But he was an athlete.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Like, the pound-for-pound athlete, we normally talk about like a
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Nate Robinson type, like a 5'9 dude.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Or LeBron.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: But he was a 7'1 guy in the same pound-for-pound
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: athlete competition.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: Although I always say clearly the best version of Shaq
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: was this era we're talking about, you know, 99 through 2002,
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: et cetera. But the most exciting, the highlights were in Orlando. Yes.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: And yeah, that was the physical specimen and just lean, tall, agile,
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: could run, jump. So that version of Shaq, which we
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: didn't have. And he'd also been dealing with injuries, including
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: his first year in L.A. So one of the years,
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: one of the reasons he didn't quite take off right
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: away was was he gets there and he's playing like
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: an MVP through the first couple months of the 96-97 season,
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: his first in L.A. And then he tears his groin.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: And so it took him a while. He never quite
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: came back. It sort of derailed him and kind of
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: took him out of that year. And then physically, he
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: wasn't quite in shape. And then again, Phil Jackson comes
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: and you get a version that starts to look a
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: little bit more like the Orlando version.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: The 2000 version, though, as good as he was, and
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Kobe starts getting there, right? Like 2000, it starts kind.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Of feeling it.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: But that year, it is very clear that Shaquille O'Neal
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: is the best player on that team.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: The Western Conference playoffs.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: bit of a slog right like they did not dominate
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: in the playoffs like one would expect they went i
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: think this is back when we still had a five
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: game series they went five against sacramento um they blew
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: phoenix away but then they had that portland series against.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: Well well before we skip phoenix they're up three nothing
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: and then they get destroyed in game four that's right
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: which led to phil jackson saying hey teams that win
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: championships don't get blown out in a closeout game like
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: this yeah And then they move on to, yeah, the
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: Portland series, they go seven. So their record in closeout games,
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: you know, in early closeout opportunities, right? So 0-2 in
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: the first round, 1-1 in the second round, 0-2 in
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: the third round, and then 1-1 in the final round, right?
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: In the finals. So they're just a middling, if not
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: losing record in early closeout opportunities, which is far from dominant, right?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, the Portland series, We always talk about that
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: team and we call them the jailblazers and everything that
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: went along with that. That is literally the deepest team
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: in the history of the NBA.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: Especially the next year, right? When they get Dale Davis
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: and Sean Kemp.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: But I think even the 99-2000 team, right? I'm going
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: to sort this by minutes per game. This is how
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: many people clock in at over 10 minutes a game
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: for this team. Rashid Wallace, Scottie Pippen, Steve Smith, Damon Stoudemire,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Arvita Sabonis, Detlef Schrepp, Brian Grant, Greg Anthony, Bonzi Wells,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Jermaine O'Neal, Stacey Augman.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: That's 11 dudes. 11 dudes that.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: Had- Got 10 plus minutes.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and had.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Real live NBA careers, right? Like, not just guys that
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: got in here for a little while. If you step
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: it down one more, you get to a dude that
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of you ain't gonna remember, but
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Gary Grant was a dude that played 10, 11.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Years in the NBA.
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: I forgot he was on that team.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, they had so many dudes. You can't typically
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: win that way in the NBA, right? Because guys need
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: more minutes than that.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: But.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: They were loaded and they had the Lakers.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: Had them.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: They had them. They're up 18 in the fourth quarter, right?
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: I think 18 in the third and like 15 in
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: the fourth maybe.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've had Rashid on this show and he
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: blames it all on, and I quote, dumb believey.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: D-U-M-B-L-E-A-V-Y. Mike Dunne leaving the head coach of Portland.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: But this Lakers team looked like it was going to be, damn,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: y'all got this all together and here we go.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Y'all about to blow it again?
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: So the weird thing with that game seven from the
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Portland perspective is in the fourth quarter, they were getting
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: all the same shots that they had when they built
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: the league. You know, that Rasheed Wallace baseline turnaround, right?
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Bonzi Wells was posting up. He was a matchup problem.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: they're getting all the same looks and they're just not
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: going down. And then to me, the turnaround was Kobe,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: like volleyball spikes, one of Bonzi shots. And that seemed
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: to trigger things. But the weird thing about that comeback
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: was this initially it, the Lakers, like Portland had just
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: stalled out and the Lakers went a couple of minutes
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: when they couldn't score either. And you're like, well, that
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: might've been their window. And then Portland just kept on
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: missing and kept on missing and kept on missing. And
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: you had that epic comeback that ended with the, obviously the,
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: the iconic Kobe to Shaq lob, which is probably the
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: most significant basket that wasn't significant. Like they were going
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: to win the game with or without that. But it's funny,
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: even Phil Jackson's not one for like hyperbole or, or
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: sort of poetic descriptions of things. He calls that, that
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: the statement play that Kobe to Shaq, cause it just,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: crystallize everything that you wanted. Kobe could have shot it,
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: but he passed it to Shaq and Shaq gets the glory.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: It was a measure of desperation or a moment of
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: desperation that meant that whatever the bullshit was couldn't matter
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Like you think about it in that context, in that moment.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: And it is also an incredibly high lob, an incredible catch,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: an incredible bring down, and a classic Shaq reaction. Like
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: the moment it felt like, at least for them, the
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: moment they realized, oh, we've actually done this. You normally
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: see a kind of response like that from a team
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: after they've won a championship before, and then they can
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: dig into the reservoir and turn it on.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: This team had never won one. And they were, I mean,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: they were on the verge of a terribly embarrassing loss,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: terribly embarrassing loss.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: Two things. Well, one on the lob, I remember thinking
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: he threw it too high. Yeah. And then Shaq still
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: somehow went up and still got it. But at some
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: point when they're down and just the whole life had
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: been taken out of Staples center, like they're just getting
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: completely disrupted and just dissected. And I'm thinking this thing
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: is over before it began. Like I, was just sure
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: that there was going to be a parade in two weeks.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: You know, the Lakers were going to win their championship.
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: They'd been that team. They'd clearly been the best team
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: in the league all year. And then the Blazers were
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: about to beat them three straight times and just destroy them.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: And I remember thinking this is going to be it.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: I still go back that that game, one of the
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: most pivotal in the modern NBA, because I think if
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: they don't win that year, that, They don't win the
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: next year. That championship resolve that you could draw upon
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: that you mentioned, Bo, that certainly came into play next
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: year when they're down to the Sacramento Kings in the
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: conference finals, right? But they didn't have it yet. They
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: gained it in this game. But they wouldn't have had
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: that stamp of being a championship team that they could
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: have drawn on the rest of the time. And I
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: don't think they went– I think that was the difference
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: between three championships with Shaq and Kobe and no championships
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: because if it kept not working– then one of them
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: got to go.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: But also keep in mind, they'd already made their big
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: move the year before. And that's when they finally got
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Glenn Rice, got Eddie Jones out to make more space
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: for Kobe, which, by the way, at the time for
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: a lot of people was like, hey, are you sure?
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: You sure you want to get Eddie Jones out of here?
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: People really liked Eddie Jones, right? Nah, they went ahead
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: and made that move. And it's funny, in reading Jeff
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Perlman's book about that time, one thing he points out
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: about like you go back and talk about Kobe and
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: the air balls in 97 or whatever with, with, with
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: some time to have passed. Shaq even said in that book,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: everybody that said they was mad at Kobe Shaq, like.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: None of them wanted to shoot.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Not a single one of them. And especially was talking
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: about Eddie Jones. They felt like he did not want that.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Shot at all. Yeah.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: He'd start sniping. Like it's not a coincidence that Eddie
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: was the one to go. Cause cause Shaq would often
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: be disappointed in him and their playoff shortcomings.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Was that his horse Grant?
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Michael Jordan was always disappointed in Horace Grant.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: That was his disappointment guy.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: But Michael would say it at the podium. Yes. So
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: he'd give me one of my favorite quotes. So remember,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: the pass is shot to seal the three-peat, the first three-peat.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Michael passed to Horace. Horace was right under the basket.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: But Horace would shoot like 20% or something in the finals.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: So Horace passes up the two-pointer, which would have tied
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: the game. All they needed was two. Horace passes out
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: the layup and passes out to Paxson for the three
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: that wins it. So Michael at the podium just couldn't
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: let it go. And has to mention, I guess Horace
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: was afraid to shoot, which is sad. Why would you think.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: He just won the championship?
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Celebrate!
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: It's not Mike.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: Which is sad. Because he can't relate.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: He simply could not relate to the idea that you
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: were afraid of it.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Right. You just didn't want it. He's like, what are
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: you talking about? But yeah, all of that.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: But the interesting thing is that Horace becomes, you know,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: one of the veteran. So one of the things that
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: took the Lakers, you know, got him over the hump.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Not only is Phil Jackson and his staff with all
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: this championship experience come in. But he brings in players
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: with championship experience more. So you've got Ron Harper comes in.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: Horace Grant comes in. A.C. Green. So you've got all
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: these vets who help that team get over the hump.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think something that gets lost. We call
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: these the Shaq-Kobe Lakers. And there's a reason we call
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: them the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Because it was... really Shaq-Kobe and a bunch of dudes.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Like, Glenn Rice, when they got him, was viewed as
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: an upper echelon, like, three like scoring player, but it never,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: it didn't really, as the number three, it didn't really work, right?
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Like he was not a guy that moved really smoothly
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: into that because all it really was giving you was buckets.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: So all he's giving you is buckets as the number
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: three option that doesn't really go as well. But other
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: than that, 36 year old Ron Harper, 36 year old
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: AC Green, young Derek Fisher, Robert Oring has, you know,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: because he threw that towel at Danny Ainge that time
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: and Danny Ainge punished him by letting him be a Laker.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: A very young Tyler.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: It's funny, because Ori told me once, like, that was
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: one of the things when he looked back on his
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: career that he regretted. Obviously, it was not a good look. But,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, he leads such a charmed life.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Best thing he ever did. Best move he ever made.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: It gives him three more rings.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: It gives him five more rings because he becomes champion guy,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: which then makes.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Him attractive to the Spurs so that he could go
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and get the two more.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: But these are not great rosters when you look through
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: the run outside.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: They were top-heavy. But, again, they were guys who... had
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: championship experience, which matters. And you got a guy like
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Rick Fox, who's a Dean Smith product, you know, like the,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: these Dean Smith guys knew what they were doing. The
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: ultimate example, of course, being Michael. But I always said
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: like the, the real testimony of the Dean Smith was
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: like the Joe Wolfson, the Pete Chilcutt, who would have
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: like lengthy NBA careers, even though they weren't as talented
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: as Michael. And so Rick Fox is a Dean Smith guy.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: And Rick plays a key role on those teams too.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: He could score a bucket here and there, including had,
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: had a couple of, big baskets in the big comeback
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: against Portland in the game seven. And then, um, didn't
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: mind doing the dirty work in the battles with, uh,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: with Sacramento. Like he would play defense on page of
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: Stojakovic and he'd also just mentally mess with them too.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Also John Sally on the one more for you go list.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: He popped up, got, got him, got him.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: Right. Great guy to locker room, go-to guy in the
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: locker room again, because one of the all time great
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: quotes in the NBA. So, I mean, we loved having
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: those guys as media, you know, having a John Sally, his,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: his time in LA was so memorable to me. Just like,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: remember he was on those bulls team. So, you know,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: obviously we think of him as a piston, but he
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: was on the 95, 96 bulls had one of the
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: most memorable quotes of the finals, which I don't really
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: want to repeat. He said on one of the off days,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: and then was just great in the locker room with
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: the Lakers. He hasn't even played. I barely remember him.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: I can't remember him anything he did on the court
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: with that team, but I do remember him going, spending
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: a lot of time in his locker.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Sally, also a pioneer of New York dudes who moved
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: to Atlanta and realized that they love it.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Um, like that's a, that's a, that, that's it. That's it.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: That's an archetype that came to define the latter part
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: of the eighties that he was in.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Like he was a dude.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: He was in Kenny Anderson too.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Kenny Anderson's after him. Right.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Like, like, but like, would you, would you put him
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: in that category? Yes.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Kremins. Fife.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That was Fife. Fife lived around a quarter from
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: my parents when he came down.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Fife and Eric Sermon are very early in that, but no,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Cremins was like, hey, man, I know players in New York.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: And Cremins figured out, hey, man, I can bring them
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: down here. They're going to love this shit.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: The ACC was all fueled by get the players from
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: New York at that point, get them out of trouble
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: or whatever it was. But Sally was one of the
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: very first. They retired his jersey at Georgia Tech.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Quiet. Yeah, yeah.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Like, Sally was that dude.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Stephon Marbury? Oh, yeah.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Well, Stephon, yeah. Stephon. It's a tradition unlike any other.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: But we get to 2001. And to me, that year
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: is interesting. And I want to build this up. We'll
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: break in the middle and we'll talk about it.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: But you tell me what it was like around the team,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: because from a distance, it felt like the first time
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: that we on the outside truly got a handle on
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: the fact that Shaq and Kobe really didn't like each other.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And in particular, that Kobe thinks the Shaq is fat
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: and lazy.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So this had been going on. We knew about
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: in LA and we would write about it. No one
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: was really on the record, but again, you're spending time
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: in the locker room. You're talking to all the players.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: You're pretty plugged in at that point. And so we're
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: writing about it. At one point, I even tried to
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: like broker like a summit meeting between Shaq and Kobe
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: and have it be on the record. And that couldn't
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: come through, but it was clear. Like this was one
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: of the things hindering this team. And the, the, Local
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: people in L.A. would get mad at me for talking
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: about it, and they would just kind of deny it.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Everyone was living in denial, the fan base. And then
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: Rick Buecher does the story for ESPN Magazine. It comes
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: out in December or January of that season. And it's
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: the cover story, and Kobe just is really all out
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: talking about it. Like, when I read it, I reread it,
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: getting ready for this, and I'm like, wow. I couldn't believe, like,
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: how strong it came in. You know, and Buecher really
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: took Kobe's side. It's funny, Buecher said in a podcast
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: not too long ago that, one of his strategies, like,
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: he told Kobe after the air balls in Utah early
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: in his career, they're like, you know what, I like
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: that you had, you know, the balls to take those shots. So, like,
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Buecher had access to Kobe that very few, if any,
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: anybody else had. Like, he had his number. He'd go
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: to the house. Like, so Kobe bears all to Buecher.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: And you're right, Bo, the rest of the country finds
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: out what we've been trying to tell y'all in L.A.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: that these two guys aren't getting along and they're fighting
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: for control of the team. And it's... Getting worse, and again,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: it's nearing a breaking point. The team winds up winning
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: 11 fewer games than it did in the 99-2000 season.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Shaq starts off the season, I think, injured, might miss
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: a few games early on. Derek Fisher notably misses like
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: 60 games. And then he comes back in March. And noticeably,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Kobe starts missing some games with ankle injuries. And so
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: they go like 7-7 through the stretch through March and April.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: But Kobe goes out, Derek Fisher's back, and they win
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: four straight games without Kobe. And now, and they're playing
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: really well. And it becomes apparent when Kobe comes back
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: that if things go sideways, it's going to be on him. Yeah.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: So that kind of keeps him in line the rest
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: of the way, and that's what enables them to go
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: on this incredible run.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, I don't think what we could grasp from
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: a distance was the idea that Kobe was good enough
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: to where this would be even a discussion about who
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: would be good enough. Because again, 2000 Shaq was the
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: best player on earth, right? There was no question that
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: he was the best player on earth.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: And what I remember- Imagine now Dashley needed Kobe to say,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: all right, that's nice, but let me run things now. Right.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: I'm going to take over from here.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: But I think there are two things about Kobe that
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I didn't, it was difficult for me to grasp these
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: things about Kobe myself in that time because he's my age, right?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And so I saw him as being- more grown than
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: he was.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Because I saw myself as being more grown than I was.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: So I'm not like, he's not, I'm not viewing him
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: in the context of a young guy trying to find
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: his way.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Because that's not how I view myself, even though I
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: definitely should have, but it's Shaq, but it's Kobe coming
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: out and saying, Hey man, I've been working all off-season
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: on my game. I've been coming up with new stuff.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I want to show people what I've been doing. I've
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: been working to be... Kobe's soft skills were not good, right?
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Like, this is why it's funny to me.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: And, Bo, the key thing, like, that's a great way
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: to paraphrase it, but it's all first-person singular, right?
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: So I wrote a story for the Sporting News in
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: the middle of that. I called it the Kobe quandary because, yeah,
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: this guy is great. He works on his game. And
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: I ended that story with, you know, Kobe, it's after practice,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Kobe's shooting, he's getting better, he's working, he's improving, he's dedicated,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: but he's alone.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: You know, and Phil Jackson used to tell him, Kobe
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: wants to lead the team, but Kobe, who's going to
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: follow you?
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: And that's why when I hear people now romanticize Mamba mentality,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I'm like, guys, we're not talking about this.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Mamba mentality is great for the summer.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I'm going to keep working hard. I'm going to keep
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: getting better.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: But everything with Kobe was, yeah, for him, the team
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: game was a vessel for personal expression and a personal
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: demonstration of what he has worked to show to the world.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: It was important to him that the world see these things.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And so now he's saying these things out loud and
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: also implicitly, and then here come this fat motherfucker over here,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: but y'all say he's supposed to be in charge.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: And Kobe's Phil Jackson's saying to Kobe, well, who's going
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: to follow you?
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: And Kobe's saying, why should I follow somebody who doesn't work?
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: It's hard to respect somebody who doesn't work as hard
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: as you.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: And Shaq was like- He can't make his free throws.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Which to Kobe is just, why don't you get out
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: there and shoot a thousand free throws until you start
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: making them, right? And so that is the backdrop coming
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: into this season. And they did not finish the season
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: with the most wins in the West.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: They were second.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Sacramento was only one game below them. We were not
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: looking at the Lakers going into the postseason as being
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: a team that would dominate.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Well, what happened? Coming up next, we're going to tell you.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: You can predict the playoff action all the way to
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  Speaker 1: hyphen offer hyphen terms. All right, we are back with J.A.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Adande.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Check out the podcast, Dynastic, J.A. Adande and Chuck Todd.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: And so now we're talking about we have reached the
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: 2001 postseason for the Lakers.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: It was a stumbly road.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: But one thing that's interesting to look back on also,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: before I forget, while we talk about Shaq and Kobe
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: and like the fight for who would be in charge,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: It always felt to me that it's a no-brainer. The
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: best player on this team is Shaquille O'Neal. Shaq finished
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: that year with 28.7 points per game. Kobe had 28.5.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: What is crazy is that Kobe took three more shots
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: a game than Shaq did. The year before, Shaq took
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: three more shots per game than Kobe did.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: The all fucking dastardly. In an era that still, the
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: rules had not changed yet.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: So we're still greatly prioritizing the big man.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Right. Basketball is still very much inside out. I will
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: say part of it though was Shaq, Shaq, you know,
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: put it all out there for that MVP season. He
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: was kind of content to lay back a little bit
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: in a regular season. Right. But not only to an extent.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: Right. He was ready to let Kobe have his shine,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: but only to an extent. And then especially not once
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: playoff time came around. Two games that kind of preceded
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: and maybe precipitated this was that Game 7 comeback against
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: Portland in the Western Conference Finals, Kobe led the Lakers
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: in every major statistical category that game. And the numbers
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: weren't huge. It was a low-scoring game, but he led
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: them in points, blocks, rebounds, everything, right? And then in
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: the middle of the finals, Kobe misses a game because
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: he sprains his ankle in Game 2, I think, misses
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: Game 3, comes back in Game 4, Jack fouls out.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: They go to overtime. And Kobe leaves. Well, I think
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: he scores eight points. Famous bucket he gets when he's
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: doing the kind of, hey, calm down. I got this. And,
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: you know, Brian Shaw, one of the vets on that team,
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: later said that that's the moment that Kobe arrived. So
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: even though that was Shaq's year, it also was Kobe's arrival. Yes.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: So that kind of changes the mentality going into the
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: next season.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Kobe's like, finally.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: He's like, all right, there we go.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: What I thought this was going to be two years
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: ago is finally taking place.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: And so, like, I think it is a thing about
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Kobe that I think is important to note, especially at
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: that point. My criticism of Scottie Pippen always is there
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: is no Scottie Pippen game, right? Kobe had the games
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: where the man was out and he's like, all right, cool.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Mom and daddy ain't here. Fine. I'll cook dinner. Don't worry.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: We're not going to starve, baby.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: We're going to get this going.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: So they get into the old one post season and
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: they just start destroying people like they, it was a
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: run through the West.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Unlike just about anything that we had ever seen. There
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: are a couple of close games in there, but otherwise
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: it was just sheer destruction.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So first round, it's interesting because they played Portland.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: Portland had loaded up in the offseason. I remember when
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: they made all these moves, I was covering the U.S.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: Open and all these things went down and I stopped
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: and wrote a column and I'm like, all right, the
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: only question now is where are they going to put
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: the banner? Because they'd taken the Lakers to seven and
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: now they just loaded up and then it just did
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: not fit the chemistry. So I went up and did
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: a story on the Blazers right before the regular season
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: ended and just what a mess it was and just
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: how it hadn't meshed. And people were disgruntled, and people
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: didn't like their roles, and Dunleavy lost control of the team,
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: and the players were mad at Mike Dunleavy and all
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: this stuff. So after taking the Lakers to seven the
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: year before in the conference finals, they get swept by
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: the Lakers in the first round. Get them out. And
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: then Sacramento comes in. Hold on.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Sacramento had won 50.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: The Lakers won 56 games that year. Sacramento won 55,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: and they had taken the Lakers to the limit the
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: year before.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: The year before. That was 2000. Those Lakers weren't these Lakers.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: These were championship-proven Lakers. And again, it all clicked, and
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: they just smoked them at four. Jack goes 40-20, 40-20
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: the first two games. Goes back-to-back Wilt Chamberlain. Like, we
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: hadn't seen that done.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: And this is in an era where 100 points was
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: not happening very often.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so Shaq goes 40-20, 40-20 in the first
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: two games. Then they go to Sacramento, and this was interesting,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: and this was one of the reasons why Shaq was
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: willing to let Kobe have his time to an extent.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Kobe was a lot better on the road, right? Look
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: at the home road splits. Shaq's numbers went down, Kobe's
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: numbers went up. Shaq explained, it's funny, I didn't realize
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: it was actually, he said this during this playoff series
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: to me, that a problem for him on the road
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: was that he couldn't sleep comfortably. Like, he had custom
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: beds at home. You think of a dude that size,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: he's got custom beds. Now he's got to go sleep
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: in hotel beds. He attributed that. You know, at the time,
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: we were kind of dismissive. We've come to have a
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: better understanding of the importance of sleep. But I think
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: it's somewhat valid. But no matter, because you get a
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: maybe slight decreased version of Shaq, and you get a
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Kobe who lives for those moments. Again, you think of
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: the Kobe games, a lot of them are on the
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: road in the playoffs, similar to MJ. And it peaks
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: with a... He goes 48 and 16. I think it
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: was in game four of that series. One of the
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: best statistical Kobe games you'll see. The game score in that,
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: that's a metric that takes into account all the different
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: categories and gives you a single number for him. So
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: a game score of 30 is great. 30 and above.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: Kobe's game score in that game was a 43. It
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: might be the peak Kobe game. So the.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: The kings get dismissed there's a lot of speculation that
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: this is it for them chris weber is going to
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: leave in free agency he hadn't given any indication that
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: azira to come back remember the maloops had that oh
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: yeah billboard like we'll mow your lawn yes and so
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: stack i remember talking to him by the bus he's
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: like that's it for the kings they're going back to
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: expansionism so they're just reveling you know creating words expansionism
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: to describe the state of the Kings. Of course, you know,
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: we'll find out that was very much not the case,
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: but they're gone. But then the thing that we forget, Bo,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: going into the next series against the Spurs is the
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Lakers were the underdogs in that. As well as they'd
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: been playing these first two rounds, everyone expected the Spurs
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: to win. They, you know, they had the number one seed.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: They were a great team, and they had championship experience themselves.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: As you said, the last time they faced each other
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: in 99, the Spurs swept the Lakers. Right. Now, a
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: key thing, one of the pivotal, the untold story, the
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: unknown story, is that so the Spurs won the championship
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: in 98. The Lakers are the team in 2000, but
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: as we saw how vulnerable they were in the 2000 playoffs,
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: they didn't have to play the Spurs. Why? Because Tim
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Duncan hurt his knee. Pop sits him. And so they
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: lose in the first round to Phoenix. And Phoenix was
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: trying to do this small ball stuff way ahead of
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: its time. And that wasn't working at all. And Phoenix
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: just gets destroyed. But I believe if the Spurs had
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: played the Lakers and they'd been healthy, I think the
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Spurs would have beaten that Laker team. And we'd change
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: the whole history. Right. But now, now that the Lakers
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: had that championship experience, they go down, they win game one.
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: Everyone's like, oh, the Spurs are going to win game two. Like,
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: there's no question. Like, that was the most locked, the
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: Spurs are going to win game two. No way the
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Lakers are going to come down here and win game two.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: It's a close game. Kobe hits a three from straight
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: away late that just, you know, the ultimate dagger shot.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: And I'll never forget, we're walking to the, they're at
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: the Alamo Dome. We're walking. It's a long walk from
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: the locker rooms to where the buses used to be.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: The buses would come inside the Alamo Dome. And I say, Kobe,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: I think he hit an artery with that one. He
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: just said, let him bleed. It was so cold, but
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: it was true. That shot broke that version of the
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Spurs because they go out to LA. The Lakers, I think,
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: I know the Lakers scored 111 in both of the
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: games in LA and the Spurs scored like 82 and 92.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Like it wasn't even close. And I remember, I think
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: it was game three. It was, maybe it was four.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: The most bored I'd ever been at a playoff game.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: So I made the mistake of, of the first two
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: games were in San Antonio and the TNT had the
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Western Conference that year. So Barkley's there. We go up
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: there and he goes, hey, they're doing a roast for
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: me in Vegas on Saturday. You should come. So I
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: go up there. I go to the roast. Game three
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: is Friday, I think. Game four is Sunday. So Saturday night,
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: I go up to Vegas for the roast. Wind up
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: going all night. Wind up in a limo with Matt Kuchar,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: the golfer. Yeah, he just come up winning the U.S. Amateur,
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: I think. And, yeah, very random night. But I'm out, like,
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: all night, literally. And then go to the airport, and
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: I get back, and I'm struggling. It's a day game,
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: and I don't even have time to take a nap.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: And I'm sitting there like, why did I come back
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: for this? Because it just wasn't close. The team, the
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: Spurs just got broken.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is San Antonio had the home court, right?
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: And I think that incarnation of the Spurs is underrated
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: because I think people misunderstand how good David Robinson still was.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Like he was not playing the heavy minutes at that
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: point after the back surgery, but all his advanced numbers
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: checked out higher than.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Tim Duncan at that point.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Like he was still an, a legitimate force as a
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: player when he was out there. So you've got Tim Duncan,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: who's now moving toward MVP caliber, Tim Duncan. He'd been
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: a second in the MVP voting that year. They had
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Derek Anderson, who was a pretty good player at that point. Now,
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: you know, it's a bit of a collection of.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Spursy guys, right? Like you got Steve Kerr hanging around there,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: but they were still a really good team and the
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Lakers were, destroyed them. An interesting quirk about the Spurs
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: in that run, either they were going to beat you
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: or you were going to destroy them. That was kind
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: of how it worked for most of those teams.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: And in the middle of this, the Lakers, next year
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: they win in five games. The Lakers win eight out
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: of nine playoff games against the Spurs in this stretch
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: after having been swept by them. The Lakers, they were
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: just on one. They shot 44% from three in this series.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Derek Fisher, 15 to 20. So the numbers weren't big, right?
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: Because of the way the game was played. but the percentage.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: So Derek Fisher shoots 75% from three, 15 for 20
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: in the series, right? Like that's how much they were on.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: And it's funny, this team, this run became sort of
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: the ultimate example of, you know, flipping the proverbial switch, right?
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: Because they were not, they were a good team, but
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: they were not a great team. They were not a
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: historically great team during the regular season. And then this
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: is one of the great playoff runs that you'll ever see.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: And the funny thing is that it kind of lulled
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: the Laker fans into thinking that this team could do
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: it at any point. And I remember in the 2004 season,
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: I wound up before a game in Phoenix and it
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: was Rick Fox, Kobe, I think Derek Fisher. Somehow we
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: started talking about that 2001 run. And it was just
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: understood that that's the type of thing that could never
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: be repeated. Right. It just all came together in a
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: way like as professional athletes, you know, you could easily
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: go your whole career and never find a groove like this.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: And it just happened. And they understood how rare it
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: was and how special it was. And so when it happens,
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: They just look back fondly on it because they were like,
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: you just don't get those. And it happened then.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, they just ran through and swept the first
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: three series. They were so good that we treat Allen
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Iverson and those Sixers winning game one like he won
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: the championship.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Like winning one game validated a career that can be
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: very difficult to validate.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: And people did not. And people like him.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Validated his MVP. Yes. Yes.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: And people like him a lot more now than they
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: did at the time. There was a much more polarizing
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: figure in real time. Allen Iverson was that he is
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: right now. But that team was so good that losing
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: that one game, the only game they lost in the playoffs.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: It made Iverson.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: That's all it took. Man, remember that time Iverson won?
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine?
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Stepped over Tyronn Lue?
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, can you imagine if James Harden got one playoff,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, one win in the finals, and we were like, see?
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Told you.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: What? And winning game one, right, at that. Right. That's
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: the only win is game one.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: In game one. Now, of course, there wasn't another. What
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: was the other team?
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: The 83 Sixers had the one loss, and I want
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: to say one of those Kevin Durant Warriors teams.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Ran through the first.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: Year with kevin durant they went all the way and
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: remember lebron hadn't lost in the east right up until
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: the finals and then the warriors we thought they were
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: going to run the table they lose game four it
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: took a all-time like we we saw the best the
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: calves could possibly play in a game four i think
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: they're like a missed free throw or two away from
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: scoring 50 in the first quarter right right so and
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: like that was the only way you're going to beat
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: those warriors you're going to have to had 50 point
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: quarters to get them down by like 30. And then
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: the Warriors still, the funny thing is in that third quarter, that,
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: that game, the Warriors made on a little run. People
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: are like, they might do this. Right. Like that's how
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: highly we thought of those Warriors. But yeah. And to me,
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: the only reason we, we, the, the Lakers lost that
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: first game was they had that long layout because it
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: was sweeping everybody. The Eastern conference finals went seven. And then,
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: you know, the rest versus rest argument, And so it's
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: funny because when the Lakers won, so they were running
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: my columns. We were doing an exchange with John Smallwood
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: of the Philadelphia Daily News. So my column was running
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: in Philly. Smallwood's column was also running in L.A. And
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: so when I... You know, when the matchup was set,
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: I was like, all right, now we know who the
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: Lakers are going to sweep in the finals. You know,
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: because that's how dominant, you know, now we've got the details.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: We know they're going to sweep. Now we know who
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: they're going to sweep. And so the Philly fans were
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: mad at that. They were sending me all these emails. Then,
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: of course, Sixers win game one. And I get all, oh,
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: what do you say now? What about your Lakers? And
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: then as the series went on and the Lakers are
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: winning and winning and winning. And it's funny because. The
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Sixers and Brown and Larry Brown and Allen Ivers kept saying, like, oh,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: we're playing with heart. We're playing with heart. They kept
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: losing that. So I wrote, hey, sooner or later, it
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: ain't about heart. It's about winning these games. And now
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: the Philly fans, being Philly fans, they're agreeing. They're like, yeah,
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: that's right. You tell them. They started turning on their team.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: And so Matt Geiger was the backup center on that team.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: He had missed, I think, the first couple games of
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: knee injuries. So I'm in the stands in Philly. I
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: went up to see someone I knew. And I'm talking
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: to them before the game and Geiger is like stretching
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: out his knee on the on the scorer's table. And
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: the Philly fans are like, yeah, that's right, Geiger. Stretch
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: out that knee, you pussy. This is like you're supposed
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: to be supporting your team. So as the series going on,
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: you know, and Shaq is just like pounding away. on
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: Dikembe Mutombo, who was the defensive player of the year,
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: is that my memory of that is Shaq one time
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: just like turns, elbows flying, hits Dikembe in the nose
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: with the ball and just like goes through him and scores.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: Like he was going through Dikembe. Robert Ory had one
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: of his Robert Ory shots, not quite as dramatic as
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: the more memorable ones. And it, you know, just by
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: game three, it's just feeling inevitable, you know, four and
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: the Lakers went in five and, The interesting thing with that, though,
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: there's a lot going on behind the scenes. So there's
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: that iconic shot of Kobe wearing the Jeff Hamilton leather
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: jacket in the showers with the trophy that everyone likes
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: to recreate. And they think it's like this great moment, like, oh,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm walking the show. Like, you didn't want
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: to be Kobe in that moment. If you look at him,
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: he's sort of, he doesn't look like a guy that
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: just won a championship. The only indication that he just
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: won a championship is the Larry O'Brien trophy sitting there.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: But he was dealing with a lot of stuff and
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: he later admitted, or talked to Bill Plasky about the
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: fact that it was difficult for him. He called it
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: bittersweet because he's back in Philly, in his town, and
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: his family isn't there. Right.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: And he's getting booed.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's getting booed. But more importantly, the family members
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: aren't there to see it because there'd been the split
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: because of the marriage to Vanessa, which, you know, the
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: family took him a long time to come around on,
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: and they weren't quite there yet. So Kobe... A, I
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: think he thought this would be his championship. He'd be
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: the Finals MVP. To his credit, he had deferred to
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: Shaq when necessary because he recognized that that was the
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: path to win a championship. And so I think he's
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: a little disappointed at the fact that this wasn't his
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Finals MVP, that he only had the Larry O'Brien and
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: not what would become the Bill Russell Finals MVP.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, it's not just that he didn't
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: win Finals MVP. I don't think he got a vote.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: And they were....
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: As close to equally as good as one could ask
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: for two people to be under those circumstances.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Even the advanced numbers bear out. Like, win shares per 48.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: In that series?
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Win shares per 48 in the, I'll say this, for
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: the whole postseason. Win shares per 48,. 260 and. 260. Like,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: that's how in lockstep they were for that whole postseason.
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: But I think, Kobe, a lot of it was more
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: in that Sacramento and the.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: San Antonio series. Yeah, that's fair. That's right, because he
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: did dial it back. He did dial it back. I
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: do remember that. And the Nets series the following year.
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but he does get kind of the series icer.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: So the crazy thing, I was looking in the San
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Antonio series, he took 20 more field goal attempts than Shaq.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: But again, Shaq was content with that. A, they started
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: on the road. Kobe's better on the road. B, they
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: had the twin towers of Dave Robinson and Tim Duncan.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: It wasn't as easy for Shaq to dominate against San Antonio.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: So this is also when Shaq... So Shaq wants to
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: encourage Kobe... to play the way that he'd been playing
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: in those playoffs. So he starts saying stuff like Kobe's
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: my idol. You know, I love the way he's playing.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: So he, he, he was, it just was all working
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: and clicking. And Phil at the end of the, the,
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: the final says that it was in some ways his
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: most satisfying, but also his most difficult of his championships.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: So this was number at this point, number eight for
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: Phil Jackson. And you know, he, It was challenging because
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: there had just been this tension all year. So Shaq
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: was mad at Kobe. Kobe was mad at Shaq. They
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: were both mad at Phil. Shaq wanted Phil to say, hey, Kobe,
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: dial it down. Let's run the offense through Shaq. Kobe
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: wanted Phil to acknowledge him, right? And recognize that, hey,
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: this guy's putting in all the work and this guy's
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: more disciplined. Maybe we should give him more of the
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: share of the offense. And what Phil did not do,
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: Phil's response was, you know, laissez-faire. So he let the
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: guys resolve it and it did work out. But then,
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: you know, Phil liked to poke people through the media
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: rather than through direct confrontation. And Kobe didn't really appreciate that.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: In fact, when Phil came back a few years later
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: after having written that book in which he called kobe
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: uncoachable yes kobe is like all right we can do
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: this but i don't want you criticizing me publicly and
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: if you notice the second stint that phil was in
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: la he never said a bad word to kobe in
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: the media because they had this agreement which i got
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: him to confess to finally on the last day before
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: he left in the second.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Step And then they win this championship, and then the
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: next year comes, and they win the next championship, but
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: it doesn't... On fumes.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: On fumes. I mean, the most memorable.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: And on the residue of being champions, right? Yes. The
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: only thing... Sacramento was a better team. A deeper team.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: The Kings were better, but the Lakers won that on
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: the residue of being champions.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: There's the residue of being champions, and the most memorable
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: game of this Lakers run in the postseason is the
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: one that felt like it was fixed. That's not to
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: say the game six against Sacramento was fixed because I
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: would never say such a thing. Tim Donaghy did say
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: such a thing, but he is an unreliable narrator.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: But as one of our colleagues once.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Said, but if there was a game that I ever
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: thought was fixed, it would have been that one.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: So that game, yeah. Fishy, dubious, all of that stuff, right?
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: And just like, oh, wow, it's going to be like that, right?
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: You see some of the calls, you're like, okay, that's
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: how it's going down.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: It was some WWE shit, man. There's no other way
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: around it.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: It's funny because the first year, the game five, the
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: decided game five in the first round, they call two
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: illegal defenses against the Kings or defensive outlet, whatever it
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: was called at that time. Like in the first quarter,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: and I remember Chris Webber was looking around like, okay.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: And this felt like that on the other end of
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: the court, right? Where like you couldn't look at Shaq
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: and without a foul being called. So there was that.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: My thing is everyone likes a point to the fishing
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: in this series. The bottom line is the Kings still
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: had game seven at home in which at that time,
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: home court in game seven, you were winning like 83%
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: of the time. It's come down now, I think largely
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: because of the three-point variance. But back then, you get
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: a game seven at home, you're supposed to win that.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: And then I think they missed 13 free throws. That
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: game was very well officiated. No one was talking about
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: the officiating at the end of that one. Goes into overtime.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: Great game. But the Kings had all the chances, and
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: they just couldn't make free throws. Some people didn't want
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: to shoot the ball. They went out like some suckers.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: There's kind of no way around it.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: The end of that game.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: On your own court. So I don't want to hear
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: about the refs after that season. And Doug Christie later
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: admits to Elian Boisan, the columnist in Sacramento, that he
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: was scared to death in that game.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: They were terrified.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Like it was very easy to watch and see that
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: whole roster was terrified at the end, including their best player.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Like the one guy that wasn't scared was Mike Biddy.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: That was it.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: Who had made the game-winning shot in game five.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Right, right. Because, look, the thing about Mike Bibby was
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: if Mike Bibby.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Was a little bit better, Mike Bibby could have grown
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: into being like an all-time great clutch player.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: And you saw it from him in college, for example.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: He had that. He just wasn't good enough for it
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: to matter but so much. But you saw guys running
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: away from shots.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: You saw guys shooting air balls, as I recall, in
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: the games that mattered.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Not just at home. At home in one of the
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: most daunting environments in the NBA.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Bo, my head was ringing for like an
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: hour after that game. It was so loud in there.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: And like my stomach was curled up. I had no
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: stake in it. You know, like the only thing to
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: me that made a difference was if the Lakers won,
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: I was going to get to be at home for
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: half of the finals instead of having to hit the
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: road immediately. But like I had no, you know, real
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: stake in it. But there was so much tension. that
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: like my stomach was out and I swear my ears
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: were ringing and I had a headache pounding. That's how
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: loud it was in there. Uh, it was so dramatic. And,
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: and I remember, so Shaq had the line the year
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: before about expansionism. And I remember I'm walking out with Kobe.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: We're by the vending machines at Arco arena. And, and
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: I'm asking him about the rivalry. And, Kobe's like, rivalry?
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: She's like, they got to beat us first. You know
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: the rules. So one of my favorite things about that
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: series was Kobe and Shaq's reactions after those series were over.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was... You had to be there, man. Like,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: the Lakers.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: We saw something similar to this with LeBron with the heat,
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: which I do think because it was in the Eastern
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: time zone was a bit more like the sun in
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: a heliocentric media environment in a way that the NBA,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think can capture attention in the same way.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: But that team, those teams mattered so much. Part of
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: it was the Lakers.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Part of it is the star, the star power of
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: those guys, like everything else.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: And the drama. Yes. Interior drama. Yes.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: It was like, that's the thing.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: Again, like I said, the Thunder are very much looking
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: like and statistically like those Lakers, but they're nowhere near
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: as compelling.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: No, they like each other.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: Like you don't, you don't have the sheer force of
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: personality of those two guys that you had. It's impossible
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways to recreate the circumstances. that
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: got us there like it was like anybody Perlman's book
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: Three Wings Circus I don't know if you read it
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: it was really interesting and really good it just had
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: it is not a flattering portrayal of Kobe Bryant and
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: it was set to come out right after.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Kobe died that is a really tough break.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: Because that book is full of people who could not
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: wait to shit on Kobe Bryant page after page after page.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: Well it's funny because I always wanted to do like
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: that year the 0304 year Uh, which again is the
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: year Kobe's facing a sexual assault allegation and, and you've
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: got bills in the last year of his contract and,
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: and Shaq starts the season in the training camp demanding
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: a contract extension, all the stuff going on. And, um,
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: So I kind of kept detailed notes and I wanted
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: to do a book on that year, just focusing on
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: that year. And then I found out Phil Jackson was
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: doing his own book about that year. So I said, well,
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: I think that one would do a little bit better
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: than mine. So I called it down. But I wanted
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: to revisit it. Like I thought it would be something
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: that would be fun and maybe go back and talk
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: to the people and get that benefit like you had
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: in The Last Dance. So the perspective and the distance
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: and the increased honesty that comes with time. So I'd
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: always kind of entertain thoughts of revisiting that year in
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: a book. But then Kobe passed away and died more
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: accurately in the helicopter crash. And again, it would not
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: have been a flattering portrayal of Kobe, right? With all
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: the stuff that was going on to him. So I
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: was like, yeah, I can't do the book, you know,
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: the way that things went down because, you know, you
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: don't want to speak that way of the departed. So yeah,
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: the aftermath of that. It's funny, and kind of wrapping up,
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: you know, that the championship in 2002 was a foregone conclusion, right?
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: The Western Conference Finals were really to decide the championship.
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: The Lakers go through the nets and sweep the nets.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: And I just remember, just kind of to make it personal,
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Brad Turner, who covered the Lakers at that time, Riverside
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: Press Enterprise, now he's with the LA Times. We're back,
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: the media hotel was the Marriott Marquis in Manhattan. And
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: we get back, and we wanted to go out, you know, after...
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: You know, they won and we're in New York City
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: and we just collapsed in the elevator. We were so
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: tired that those three years of, you know, every series
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: going all the way through June, like it takes toll
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: on the media, too. Yeah. You know, and what it
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: takes out of you. That's why I have so much
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: respect and admiration to LeBron for going to the finals
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: for eight straight years. Because the run ends the next
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: year in the second round against the Spurs, and the
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: Lakers were just out of gas. You could just tell, like, collectively,
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: all those things. And same way when the Lakers lost
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: to the Mavericks in 2012, I guess, or 2011. 2011. 2011,
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: when that run ended with Kobe and Pau Gasol, they'd
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: been to three straight finals. And then, same thing. You're
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: just out of gas, man. So... Man, what a ride
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: while it lasted, but these things cannot be sustained. And,
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: you know, it really peaked in that game seven in Sacramento. Yeah,
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: that was kind of the dramatic conclusion of it.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I think the thing that Perlman said in
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: the epilogue of that book was the part that was
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: interesting about writing that book is that everybody loved to
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: talk about it. that everybody who had been around it called, like, hey,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: I'm doing this book, and they just couldn't get it. Like,
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: it was a time that no matter what it was
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: in the moment, everybody seemed to appreciate the fact that
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: they were there and loved to reminisce on it, whether
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: it be J.R. Ryder, whether it be Phil Jackson, whether
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: it be Shaq, right, Jerry West, all these people extensively
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: on the record because they just loved talking about that time.
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: And, again, because at the core of it, that 2001
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: run in the playoffs– was some of the best basketball
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: you'll see and some of the greatest team play that
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: you'll see. So I'm sure if you talk to those guys,
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: you know, yeah, winning the first one is special, but
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: that 2001, it just stayed with them. I'll just never
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: forget that, just that impromptu locker room conversation in Phoenix
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: with those guys and the way they looked back on
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: that run because lightning in a bottle seems too trite,
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: but it was just when it all clicks. And you
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: practice and train for your whole life to hope something
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: like that will happen. You know, and you also, you're
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: fortunate to get to cover something like that, like I did.
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: You know, like a lot of people never get to
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: cover a championship team in their lives. You know, I
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: got to cover multiple in LA, but again, that run,
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: you know, we rarely see something like it. We saw
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: it with Golden State, you know, the first year Kevin
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: Durant was there. But again, it just wasn't, you didn't
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: have that history. And as you mentioned at the very beginning,
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: the buildup to that, you know, and you don't have
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: that as much now because you just have so much
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: change and you have these instant teams and things can
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: change dramatically. quickly. I mean, I'll give the Thunder some
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: credit in that they've had a mini buildup, but it
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: was nothing like the buildup because the expectation from the get-go, right,
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: from the moment Shaq arrived and then disappointment after disappointment
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: after disappointment before they finally break through in 2000 and
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: then the benefit of that championship experience and what it means.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: And the fact that it could have very easily, a
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: couple more shots go down for the Blazers in game
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: seven in 2000 and we get none. And instead what
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: we had was that, that three ring circus as promo called.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: Jay Adande, check out dynastic podcast, Jay Adande and Chuck Todd.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Available where you get your podcast. My brother, I appreciate you.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: Great reminiscing with you both.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: here on the right time. We do this four days
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: a week, Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the scenes.
• 1:00:00
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• 1:00:00
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• 1:00:08
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• 1:00:13
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• 1:00:13
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• 1:00:15
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