Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 718: Who Do I Need To Be with Jessica R. Ganzie

Transcript

Episode 718: Who Do I Need To Be with Jessica R. Ganzie · The Trauma Therapist

0:10
Are Welcome back to the Trauma Theverist podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
0:14
My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
0:19
to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
0:23
who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
0:27
authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
0:33
about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
0:37
That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, fine or three,
0:45
two and one, our folks, welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast.
0:49
I am very excited to have as my guest today Jessica Ganzi. Jessica
0:53
welcome. Thank you so much, guys, thank you are welcome. So.
0:57
Jessica serves as Senior Program Manager in the Office of Diversity and Inclusion.
1:02
She's a native of Detroit, Michigan, and holds a Bachelor of Science and
1:04
Hospitality Management from faire State University and Master of Divinity from Vanderbilt Divinity School.
1:11
Her expertise lies in Black Church studies, a religious movement born out of persistent
1:17
mothering within the white spaces. Jessica's work endeavors to create the mental and environmental
1:22
conditions for people to be fully seen, loudly heard, and thrived personally and
1:26
professionally. In her teaching role over the past decade, she has both challenged
1:30
and empowered faith leaders and religious communities to like through the decolonization of sacred text
1:37
and practice and by centering marginalized voices in shaping theological understanding. Whoe Welcome to
1:45
the podcast. Before we get going here, share with the listeners where you're
1:49
from originally and where you are currently. Sure. So, I am originally
1:53
from Detroit, Michigan. That is my home space. That is where it
1:57
all began for me, and I actually live for quite a while too in
2:02
Los Angeles, Californias, so both of those I considered to be home.
2:07
Currently I live in Nashville, Tennessee, me and my husband, my amazing
2:14
son. Awesome, awesome. All right, So, what a really interesting
2:21
bio. And I'm sure you are obviously more interesting than just the written words
2:28
on your bio, But it's really interesting to me. How did all this
2:30
start for you? And what exactly do you do? Sure? So,
2:38
what I do currently, it's sort of outline like what you mentioned. I
2:42
currently work with Vanderbilt University Medical Center as a senior program manager doing diversity and
2:47
equity and inclusion work. And so a part of that is, you know,
2:53
of course, dealing with the environment, right, it's addressing things that
3:00
create barriers for people to thrive or to be themselves or whatever the case.
3:05
But it's also dealing with diverse populations. Of course, when you're dealing with
3:09
that, you have inherent differences and inherent conflicts. But figuring out ways that
3:15
we can find commonalities among these different beliefs and perspectives across board, and finding
3:22
where we can come together to be respectful, to be you know, loving
3:27
as a particular goal, but also to create an environment again by which we
3:36
can grow and thrive. So I grew up with my grandmother who was a
3:42
gardener, and so she taught me a great deal about what it means to
3:47
set the ground for something to grow, right, And so with that I
3:53
take that and everything that I do. If it doesn't make sense if we
3:58
just make a common Hey, we want to be diverse, we want to
4:00
be equitable, we want to be exclusive. That's great, Um, but
4:03
what does the ground say? What does the ground of our organizations say what,
4:08
how how are these structures set up to either reinforce that particular goal or
4:14
block it? And so I believe it's our responsibility in those particular offices to
4:17
be accountability partners and UM to just sort of gate keep that very m you
4:26
know, beautiful thing that we call like organizational culture and and make sure that
4:31
folks can can come and be. And whenever that is being threatened or violated,
4:36
then we have to step in and we have to do something. So
4:39
that's the kind of work that I do. How I came to that work,
4:44
I come to that work via religious face. So UM, I have
4:48
again a divinity degree. Even before then I work doing Christian education work UM.
4:56
And again my particular um you know faith faith stances in the in the
5:02
Christian denomination. However, I am a friend of all religions and so that
5:11
hasn't always been the case. I have had some experiences during my time and
5:16
religious faces. Being the person that you know you're teaching your preach the things
5:23
that that you think you know are correct that you are also taught or you
5:28
know tenets of your faith and you may not realize it at the time.
5:31
Sometimes the things that you may be saying are harmful. And what I was
5:35
learning in this process, um as I was going through um just my own
5:41
evolution, is that it sometimes, and I'm speaking particularly to religious face,
5:48
particularly around the Christian faith, sometimes doing something harmful may be considered virtuous.
5:58
And that's where we get right. So a good example of that is we
6:03
can say something very easy like, you know, love the person, hate
6:09
the sin. Right, Hey, we haven't really dug deep to even unpacked
6:15
what the sin is. Who's naming that as sin? Who? You see
6:20
what I'm saying. We haven't even done all that unpacking. And we've told
6:25
ourselves that there is a way to sort of differentiate people from their beliefs or
6:30
their customs who they are. But we know in practice that is not true.
6:35
Because if you know the things that you do, everything that you do,
6:41
I said, I don't like anything you do, God, but I
6:44
love you, it's like no. And people know when they're being loved and
6:48
when they're being tolerated, and so they're in lines where people get pushed back,
6:55
right, and you think, oh good, I'm getting pushed back.
6:57
I must be on the right way, folks, not gonna like when I'm
7:00
telling the truth and things of that nature. And so a pivotal moment for
7:04
me was during my time at a seminary while I was in Michigan. It
7:10
was the day after the Mike Brown verdict, and so we're dealing, of
7:15
course, in a time where there's a lot of racial tension in our country,
7:18
a lot of things that are going on. And I recall coming to
7:23
school that day and it was really like business as usual, Okay, no
7:29
problem, no one seems out of whack about anything. Now, maybe a
7:34
few weeks earlier was the decision that came down from the Supreme Court to legalize
7:41
same sex marriage. And I remember coming into the school of the day after
7:45
that and it was like chaos. It was like people were really, really,
7:49
really concerned, and there was a lot of chatter going on and it
7:53
was just an uproar. And I paused because I was thinking, I feel
7:59
so shattered the inside, and I'm so hurt about you know, this particular
8:03
injustice, and no one's bothered. No one's bothered. Now in this setting,
8:09
I'm the only black female in the program. There's a predominantly white male
8:15
space. To put more white females in the space we're in, not in
8:20
like your MDEV programs. They were in therapy, so they were preparing to
8:26
be counselors, but it was sort of like the heavy lifting of preaching and
8:31
teaching. They really tried to discourage a lot of women from going into those
8:35
spaces. So I have both sexism that I'm dealing with, but then I
8:39
also have this issue of light racialized tension, like what's going on here?
8:48
And so as I started to ask them questions because I started to feel very
8:52
uncomfortable, I had to say, who are we saying? We are one
8:56
body? We say we're one body in chrisis a thing, But if the
9:01
toe hurt, wouldn't the whole body feel it? And so how is it
9:05
that certain communities are hurting and no one's feeling this? And so that's when
9:11
I decided that we must be talking about two different things, and I must
9:16
be in a setting that I'm evolving away from. And that's what led me
9:20
into my time at Divinity School, because I wanted to divest from spaces that
9:24
I didn't feel accepted in, which I think people should do as a part
9:28
of their own self care. And in that journey, I began to evolve
9:33
as a spiritual person as a spiritual leader, and I began to see that
9:39
my freedom that at the time I looked at particularly just around a race or
9:45
gender, But I started to realize this is not the only thing that's at
9:50
stake, but that my freedom is so intricately wrapped up in someone else's and
9:56
particularly marginalized folks. So that could be a person with discipline, league,
10:00
that could be a person that's neural divergent, that could be you know,
10:05
or all sorts of things that maybe even religious difference, and so those are
10:09
That's where it started to become like very apparent to me that oh my goodness,
10:15
I think I've been writing the wave of Christian supremacy and people get harmed
10:20
in that. And I beforehand didn't think that it was a problem, and
10:26
now I'm starting to see that it is. So what do I do to
10:28
fix this? And my religion informs me that if you want to get certain
10:35
things right, you have to go through a process we call repentance. And
10:39
repentance is not just merely like, hey, God, you know my bad,
10:43
I'm sorry, right, but it's God saying, you know, what
10:48
exactly are you repenting about? You may want to confess that And now I
10:52
got to own the things that I've done, and I found myself calling people
10:56
saying, I've said these things about you as a gay person, or I've
11:01
said these things about you as a person of another faith, and I apologize
11:05
for what I said, and I was wrong in trying to make amends.
11:09
And I found freedom in that. And I found a great burden left that
11:13
I didn't even know that I was carrying, And now I knew. I
11:18
think this is the path that I need to be on, and how can
11:20
that ex stand beyond just religious space but also into work spaces other spaces like
11:26
that. Wow, I mean, first of all, just the way you
11:33
articulated your background and how you got into everything. I didn't even even have
11:35
to ask you a question. I really appreciate that. But you know,
11:41
as you're talking, Jessica, I'm thinking to myself, first of all,
11:46
there's something so beautiful in your energy and the way you speak and what you're
11:52
doing and your mission. It's really inspiring. And I'm also thinking to my
12:00
self, we live in such a challenging world, such a fractured world.
12:07
Now, right, um, this this this topic of inclusivity and honoring each
12:16
of us, It's it seems so challenging. Absolutely idiot is how do you
12:28
how do you in this idea of and before when you were saying, you
12:33
know, sometimes we respect the person, but we can kind of disregard the
12:39
sin. That's seemed very similar to me, like, well, you know,
12:43
you're not a bad person, you just made a bad choice. You
12:46
know, we say that a lot, and there's a certain amount of not
12:50
all people are bad if they make bad choices, But how do you how
12:58
do you include people who don't want to be included, who aren't being respectful,
13:03
who aren't honoring your beliefs or my beliefs. Absolutely so should we even
13:09
try to do that? Being a person that has admittedly done harm before,
13:22
I can say that, I think it's certainly worth to try, because being
13:33
informed by my faith says that when God creates everything, he creates it good
13:39
and so we start from a good place. We don't start from a sinful
13:43
place. We start from a good place sin. The way that I define
13:48
that is what what removes me out of community. It's when I do something
13:58
I'm not defining what it is. I do something that puts me in bad
14:03
relationship with my other human kind. It's when I accept something or I allow
14:11
something that can be harmful to myself or the next person. That to me
14:16
is sin. It's that when we do something that draws space between us and
14:22
our fellow humans and then us and God, right, God being that which
14:28
gives me life and leads and guides me into all things that are well.
14:33
Right. So I believe that people evolve. I don't. I don't believe
14:41
that, and I believe that everyone has an opportunity to evolve, and I
14:46
and I also believe that some people simply refuse the opportunity to do So.
14:54
I think that inclusivity can be the goal, right, and you can still
15:03
play in wisdom that lets us know that in order for it to seriously be
15:09
inclusive and in a safe way, certain things are not allowed. Right.
15:16
So I think we have to be really intentional and really clear about what we
15:24
mean by inclusion and what is to be included and things of that nature,
15:31
because we don't want it would be hard to create inclusive space. Of course,
15:37
if I have a strict hatred for all of who you are, what
15:41
you represent, right, So how can you feel safe? Right? So
15:46
those are things that we have to say. These aren't the things that violate
15:52
what inclusion can do for us. Right, So I think that that we
15:56
have a goal of inclusion, but wisdom and forms is that we may not
16:02
get all the way there with everybody, and that that is okay. Also
16:07
the pace by which we get to whatever that is, right, because it's
16:11
not like a destination either, per saying. I hate that I use that
16:15
language, but it's just a way of being. The pace by which people
16:22
make it to those points look very different. I've seen people who come alive
16:26
better in themselves later on in life after a variety of type of experiences that
16:32
get them there, as opposed to maybe another person who has their Aha moment
16:37
in their mid twenties, right, those sort of things, or people who
16:41
simply were exposed much early on to a fuller range of inclusive environment by which
16:49
they are able to interact with varying religions, with varying persons that you know,
16:57
play in the scope of sexuality, just all of those different things.
17:00
It doesn't bother them. But me coming out of religious spaces where there is
17:06
moralities are defined and it's like rights and wrongs and good and bad people and
17:11
very like you know, dualistic type of understandings of folks, whereas life is
17:18
so very gray. Then that's where sometimes are having a hearer hearder moments.
17:26
How do you get a well meaning and intended person to understand that they may
17:30
be doing something that's not well and that to change it means to challenge their
17:37
very core beliefs. And that's where you get crisis of faith, right,
17:45
because I have to go to a three crisis of faith in order to be
17:49
quote unquote delivered from that kind of thinking and being with brothers and sisters and
17:56
siblings of a world right and get to a place where I can now champion
18:03
and do certain things on all of our behalf, not just on their behalf.
18:06
Because people have a voice, so past the mike. I don't have
18:08
to speak up for everybody. Sometimes I just need to move out the way,
18:12
right. But it's it's I think that's a particular goal. But wisdom
18:18
does inform us that all the time we're not going to get there with everybody,
18:22
and that's okay, but that we can can still continue to go because
18:26
we have choices, right, and I can't force you to love me,
18:32
or to respect me, or to honor me, right, And so I
18:36
learn how to dig deep within my own self, and that's where we empower
18:40
people. Dig deep within your own self, and that's enough to feed you
18:44
your own level of dignity and worth and self empower me because you may not
18:48
get that from everybody, but even if you don't, you will be well.
18:52
You will be finding narrow communities that you belong to. You know,
18:57
but that that is something that is going to constantly with us. Unfortunately.
19:03
Give me an example if you could, about how you work specifically within your
19:08
professional environment or so um. Our office do three main things. We educate,
19:15
we train, we advocate, and we're fairly new office as well.
19:22
Our office was birth out of a greater plan what we call the Racial Equity
19:26
Plan, and that is MC's outline commitment to anti racism work and evolving into
19:34
an anti racists space and also the ways that we can empower our communities through
19:41
our VMC community, our workforce community, through the efforts and so within our
19:48
space, people come to us for a variety of reasons. Hey, we're
19:52
having this trouble with you know, our nursing group. You know, this
19:56
person is feeling a way about this person, and maybe we need some training.
20:02
And so sometimes we have the particular expertise to do the training. Other
20:07
times we bring in people that are more qualified, depending on as we sit
20:11
and we talk with these groups, trying to discern what is the real issue
20:15
here, what is some underlying stuff here. Sometimes people just have mistrust of
20:19
their management and so they're just not there. They're they're not you know,
20:23
in sync, So we have to figure out what that looks like. We
20:26
have to say, if there is say a reprimand of a particular member of
20:33
our of our workforce community, they've done something wrong, a trying step,
20:37
then they've been reprimanded for whatever however that looks. Then we also come back
20:44
to those offices to say, how do those work units heal then when there's
20:49
been certain fractures right, because it's difficult when you then got in trouble.
20:53
We essentially at work to go back around folks that you may feel a way
20:59
up about, or you know, there's all types of stuff that's happening with
21:03
that. So we also try to be mindful that is not just enough that
21:06
hey, this person did the right thing and this person did the wrong thing,
21:10
and we address the person and did the wrong thing. So we did
21:11
what we needed to do, we're saying, but if we're going to be
21:15
in community for real, we still have after work to do to help those
21:19
units still come back together when they can at least attempt and try to get
21:25
to that inclusive aspect right and a working environment that feels safe where they can
21:32
show up and they can continue on where they don't feel like that. You
21:36
know, I'm not wanting here anymore. I need to divest. So those
21:40
are a few things. How did you get to this point where this became
21:45
a focus for you? I think it just naturally occurred the last probably ten
21:56
years I've spent doing Christian education works. I work directly congregations, and that's
22:02
a very personal job and it's it's fun, but it's challenging, and so
22:07
I think I really enjoy that, you know, interpersonal connection with different folks
22:15
and what you find, especially in congregations. You know, you said,
22:18
you talk, you learn about one another, You do a lot of storytelling,
22:23
and you hear a lot of stories, and you weave all that together
22:27
to say, Okay, we're in community, and we're in community with folks
22:30
that have varying types of backgrounds and varying types of experiences, and that certain
22:36
thing. So this to me was a very natural shift over even though it's
22:40
not in congregational ministry, still with a nonprofit, but I'm still dealing with
22:45
people. That That's really what it comes down to. It's that I'm just
22:48
dealing with people. And these are people that have souls. These are people
22:52
that have things that weigh on their souls. These are people that, regardless
22:56
of background, they want to be love, they want to be cared for.
23:02
And I do feel like even in our own disagreements, there is somebody
23:06
that feels like they want the best for somebody else. Now, how we
23:10
get there, that's our debating in our challenges, but I think that we
23:14
all share those core things. So if I can get people to understand that's
23:19
a first and foremost, again drawing from our own faith experiences. You are
23:25
a good person. I believe you're a good person and that and maybe you're
23:32
misinformation or traditions or whatever the case. You could be doing something that's not
23:37
good for it, for yourself or for another person. But there is a
23:41
way to bring you back, and we want you to be on that team
23:48
with us. Right now, I've set up a situation where they have some
23:52
belonging some support. But we've called out what it is. But to call
23:57
out a person and leave them out there, all you're gonna get is defensiveness
24:03
for sure, and that's still going to happen sometimes just when people feel like
24:07
they feel attacked or something. Right, But I think that when you have
24:11
a space to say the goal is that I'm calling you back into community,
24:15
that then we have somewhere to go. And so it's no different to me
24:21
at least doing the work that I did in a very pastoral way as well
24:26
which churches that I do over here. It's interesting, as we've been talking,
24:32
we haven't even mentioned the word trauma at all, and I'm thinking to
24:37
myself specifically when we're talking about you know, interpersonal trauma, that in a
24:45
sense is a very definition of exclusion. The person who's been traumatized, they're
24:51
often feeling completely nor biologically excluded and from themselves. There's no there's a very
25:03
difficult path to getting back to their self belief, their self esteem, their
25:07
self worth. How do you square Jessica the challenges that have been leveled against
25:19
Christianity right. Some people have said, well, you know, Christianity on
25:23
the far right can be exclusionary. How do you square that with the work
25:30
you do? I mean, obviously there are different factions and all religions right
25:33
there, they're extremists and all religions. But talk to that in a bit
25:41
sure. So um, first and foremost, I had to come to a
25:47
particular terms with my own religion, right, So I had to be able
25:53
to understand like what you mentioned, these extremes, if you will, right,
26:00
and I had to land somewhere that felt home for me. That came
26:06
with the blowing up of what I foundationally knew. That's a part of a
26:12
particular crisis or trauma. Because if you're told your whole life the sky is
26:18
blue, and come to find out at thirty you learn that the sky was
26:22
yellow, now you have a lot of questions about a lot of other things,
26:26
right, And that's essentially what happens when deep rooted beliefs are challenged in
26:33
the end dismantle. And that's what I mentioned earlier, what was happening to
26:37
me that helped me to evolve, right, And so you will find for
26:42
yourself. Sometimes floating in a space that feels like an abyss, like I'm
26:49
not really sure where I land, I don't even know where to go.
26:55
What I thought I knew, I don't think I know anymore what's going on
26:59
here? This is similar things that happen when we bring up the eye topics,
27:03
when we're talking about racism, where we're talking about sexist and we're talking
27:07
about all of these different things. When we start to break down how these
27:11
isms are, these we call evils work or function and how they function maybe
27:15
through people, your most good and well intended person who see themselves as good
27:22
are saying, oh my goodness, but I, the very good person,
27:26
do wrong? Oh god, No, oh no, I'm not a racist,
27:33
I'm not a sexist person. I'm not a homophobic person, not me.
27:37
I love everybody right, And what we're trying to do is show you
27:42
how there may be some gaps and how your love may flow right. And
27:49
it's going to be so important for folks to understanding. So when they're being
27:53
challenged with that, they're going through a similar crisis. I'm using crisis,
27:57
but it can feel like trauma, like what what do you mean? What
28:03
just happened? And how do I do that? When I don't have the
28:07
language to express what I'm feeling, I just feel super disoriented when I feel
28:15
like this is a faith that has helped me together in certain moments of my
28:19
life and now is a faith that feels untrustworthy. Um, what do I
28:26
do with it? Do I throw it away? Through I keep it?
28:30
What do I do with it? People in my space because I'm not dealing
28:36
with them specifically around their religions, even though that comes up sometimes, particularly
28:41
around the holidays, in their in their celebrations, but they're coming to work
28:48
with their particular things that hold them together, their support systems that hold them
28:53
together. So when we start making assessments about certain things that they're starting to
28:59
put to put it together. Like I have a support system that loves me,
29:03
but I'm honest enough to know that my same support system may not love
29:07
everybody. Well, do I throw them away? Do it right? So
29:12
they're going through the same thing, And I think that as people, it's
29:18
so important that we do things in community. The challenge is finding the community
29:23
to do it in. I want to do it in community. I want
29:26
to feel like I belong. But where do I go? And where do
29:30
I go when I hold a particular belief system that informs me not to go
29:37
to certain places and certain people for it because they're inherently bad that those sort
29:44
of things. Right, So you feel really stuck and you have to start
29:47
making some big decisions about all of that aside, who do I want to
29:53
be in this life? What? Perton? So now I'm not thinking,
30:00
oh God, what do you want me to do? I'm starting to ask
30:04
who do I need to be? Who do I need to be? Because
30:11
if I keep trying to, you know, do something, then I'll put
30:15
myself always in a position like I don't really have, you know, a
30:18
lot of a lot of things to do for myself. I don't have a
30:22
lot of work to do for myself. I have a lot of gift things
30:25
and I could give the world that's to give the world that and do.
30:27
But when I start talking about who I need to be, well, now
30:30
I got to do a lot of inter introspection. And we don't spend enough
30:36
time doing that. And so when we're not doing introspection, sometimes we're believing
30:42
things, or we're sprouting things that we say we believe that really we don't,
30:48
or we're saying that we don't like something that really we do. And
30:52
but we haven't done enough introspection, reflection, and just honest talk and just
31:00
honest talk for us to get to a place where we can say, ah,
31:03
I or I think I'm gonna say it. I don't like chocolate around
31:12
all the chocolate lovers, right, And that's okay, like those, but
31:19
it's like it's deeper. I'm using that just that and playfully, but it
31:22
can be something very deep that says my belief system the way that I interpret
31:30
it too. That's the other thing. It's not all the time that is
31:33
telling me that. It's sometimes that I am interpreting that incorrectly, but my
31:37
interpretation leads me to be mean to these folks. And that's okay, I
31:42
should be right. But if I'm being honest, it bothers me to see
31:48
me being mean to another person because I know that's not deserving that I don't.
31:55
I don't do that. I don't. I must show dignity and honor
31:57
to all people. So if I get honest, I may say I'm not
32:01
about to do that now, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna help on a
32:05
person for doing this or being this way, those sort of things. So
32:08
we have a lot of growing to do, and the traumas of that is
32:15
still rooted a lot of times in our childhoods and our upbringings and in our
32:19
transitionary moments and stuff like that, because speaking of it's hard to do when
32:27
you're conditioned to not when when when the virtuous humility and silence, when it's
32:35
turned the other cheek, right, just let stuff go, Just let it
32:39
go, just all they don't mean it that way. Oh, be the
32:42
bigger person. I can't keep being the bigger person and I can't um those
32:49
sort of things. It's like, if I gotta keep being the bigger person,
32:52
am I around to me? Small people like what's going on? Right?
32:55
Because we want to be a reciprocated community, and so those are challenges
33:00
that still we all have Indei spaces. We're always telling people we want you
33:05
to speak up, we want you to you know, advocate and do all
33:08
this stuff. But what happens if I speak up and I get fired?
33:14
Great? What happens if I speak up and not one person in a room
33:17
got behind me? They did? After the meeting though, that was so
33:22
good guy, I'm so happy you mentioned and you're like, where were you?
33:23
And they were coming from? That's hard. We're asking people to do
33:28
some hard stuff without support, and so we have to be able to address
33:34
different things from a variety of angles to try to get more people moving around
33:39
the things that they really say mean something for them. You know, as
33:45
we kind of went down here, what you're doing to me, The things
33:52
that are coming up for me are self awareness, the importance of having self
33:55
awareness, the importance of being intentional, being compassionate, and self reflective,
34:01
all of which can be hard for a lot of us, and especially when
34:07
we're under stress, r under pressure, when we come from an environment where
34:13
those words have never been mentioned before. That's right, um My gosh,
34:19
I'd love to have you back and continue this discussion. You just have this
34:22
amazing presence, Jessica, you really do. I love it. Thank you,
34:27
thank you, and I'd love to. I'd love to. I appreciate
34:30
that. So, m if people want to get in contact with you,
34:34
what's the best way to do that? Yours? So one way is through
34:38
my website. It's Jessica Ganzy dot com, so really simple, Jessica Ganzy
34:45
dot com. And through that sow you can learn a little bit more about
34:49
a sort of consulting work that I do along with churches. And also there's
34:54
a contact area, so you can get in contact me via that way,
34:59
also through just my email, which is Jessica Ganzy dot uh at gmail dot
35:05
com. Yeah okay, yeah, so um, those are two ways that
35:12
I can be reached um. And then also of course um through social media.
35:17
Um. And actually I won't say through social media. I'm on and
35:22
off social media all the time, so I wouldn't want to make that my
35:25
main thing, but certainly my email and through the site that's probably going to
35:30
be my most primary. Appreciate that awesome, Jessica, super inspiring and can't
35:37
wait to talk to you again. Thank you so much for being here.
35:39
Thank you so much, guys, thank you for all the work that you
35:43
do as well. Appreciate that. Take care, take care,