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From the archives: Why Male Survivors Don’t Disclose with Dr. Kelli Palfy · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Today we even another episode from the archives with one
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Speaker 1: of my incredible guests. Enjoy. Welcome to the Trauma Divers Podcast,
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Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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Speaker 1: of experienced trauma. My name is Goy macpherson and my
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Speaker 1: mission is to raise the awareness of trauma and to
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Speaker 1: inspire each of us to help those around us. All right, Kelly,
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Speaker 1: here we go. So five three, two and one, our folks,
0:31
Speaker 1: welcome back to the Trauma Divers Podcast. I am very
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Speaker 1: excited to have back doctor Kelly Palfe. Kelly, welcome, Thank you.
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Speaker 2: It's great to be here.
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Speaker 1: Awesome. So Kelly began a professional career working in an
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Speaker 1: adult and youth corrections Here she noticed a disportionate number
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Speaker 1: of males in the system. Nineteen ninety six she became
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Speaker 1: an RCMP Royal Canadian Mounted Police Officer. She took an
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Speaker 1: interest in investigating sex crimes and went on to specialize
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Speaker 1: in sex crimes committed against children internationally. Here as she
1:03
Speaker 1: comes through video evidence, she witnessed firsthand the grooming tactics
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Speaker 1: commonly used by sophisticated pedophiles. After trying from the RCMP,
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Speaker 1: doctor Palpee obtained for PhD in Housing from the University
1:16
Speaker 1: of Alberta. She conducted her doctor research on the reasons
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Speaker 1: why males don't commonly disclose sexual abuse. She's now a
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Speaker 1: trained trauma therapist and public speaker on the topic of
1:27
Speaker 1: male sexual abuse and your book, as we can see
1:30
Speaker 1: in the background, is men Too Correct Spoken truth about
1:35
Speaker 1: sexual abuse? All right, fascinating, super excited to have you back.
1:40
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. So before we before, like a
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Speaker 1: couple of days ago, you were like, I want to
1:44
Speaker 1: focus on this topic specifically, what was that topic and
1:49
Speaker 1: why do you want to focus on it?
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Speaker 2: Well, I would love to just kind of, you know,
1:54
Speaker 2: segue from our last podcast where we kind of touched on,
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Speaker 2: you know, how people are missing this and maybe why
2:00
Speaker 2: they're missing it, and specifically why one of the reasons
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Speaker 2: why boys and men don't disclose sexual abuse, which is
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Speaker 2: the grooming process that they often go through. It leaves
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Speaker 2: them confused, you know, confused about whether or not there
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Speaker 2: were victims. Yeah, that kind of thing.
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Speaker 1: Okay, let's just go back briefly and give us a thumbnail.
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Speaker 1: You said why this is often missed. Give us a
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Speaker 1: thumbnail sketch of why you think it's often missed.
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Speaker 2: Well, okay. So there's it's it's sort of in the
2:31
Speaker 2: way that an offender would target a victim. Like there's
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Speaker 2: there's two types of offenders. There's a situational type of
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Speaker 2: offender and then there's a preferential child molester. The situational
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Speaker 2: type offender, they're indiscriminate. They will offend it. Sorry, my puppy, sush,
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Speaker 2: I actually can't hear. Just you know, okay, good. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So the situational I'm gonna have to put her out here.
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Speaker 2: Sorry the sorry.
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Speaker 1: It's fine, Kelly, honestly.
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Speaker 2: Oh she's training.
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Speaker 3: Uh yeah.
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Speaker 2: So the situational type of offender, there're sexually a discriminate,
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Speaker 2: which means that they will offend against any gender, any age, anytime,
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Speaker 2: whereas the preferential child molest they have an age and
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Speaker 2: gender of preference. So these are the ones that I
3:22
Speaker 2: believe are more prolific. We don't know for sure, but
3:26
Speaker 2: the process that they use to gain access to their
3:29
Speaker 2: targets is oftentimes a reason that boys and men are
3:33
Speaker 2: so confused about what has actually happened to them. If
3:37
Speaker 2: that answers your question.
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Speaker 1: So it okay, which is very interesting. So it's the
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Speaker 1: first thing that comes to my mind, though, the glooming
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Speaker 1: process can take a long time, right of the course
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Speaker 1: of months, years, et cetera. And then you're saying once
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Speaker 1: the actual physical abuse occurs in the wake of that,
4:03
Speaker 1: people are often confused about what has actually happened to them. Absolutely, okay,
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Speaker 1: so open that up up for us, say more about.
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Speaker 2: That, yes, please. So there's three stages to grooming. Three
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Speaker 2: parts of grooming. The first stage are part of grooming.
4:20
Speaker 2: The offender has to groom himself him or herself, so
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Speaker 2: he will groom him or herself to look the part,
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Speaker 2: so to speak, to fit into this environment, to fill
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Speaker 2: avoid somewhere in society where they can gain access to victims.
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Speaker 2: Now this sounds crazy, but you know, I would just
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Speaker 2: invite anybody who's listening to think about anything that you've
4:40
Speaker 2: ever fixated on, even if it's like I want to
4:42
Speaker 2: become an engineer. Okay, you've got to go back to
4:45
Speaker 2: school to become an engineer. You've got to do that
4:48
Speaker 2: process of getting accredited to get what you want to
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Speaker 2: get the career that you want. Offenders think about gaining
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Speaker 2: access to their victims in the same way. So they, yes,
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Speaker 2: it's crazy. They we'll go back to school, they'll volunteer.
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Speaker 2: They will do anything to put themselves in a target
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Speaker 2: rich environment, and anything to make themselves look like the
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Speaker 2: least likely person you'd ever suspect whatever offend. This includes.
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Speaker 2: They will become pastors, they will become youth leaders, they
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Speaker 2: will become police officers, they will become coaches. In fact,
5:22
Speaker 2: athletics is one of their favorite stomping grounds, right, So yes,
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Speaker 2: they will do anything. So that's the first stage of grooming.
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Speaker 2: They groom themselves to be present in that target rich environment, which,
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Speaker 2: by the way, for the preferential offender includes access to
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Speaker 2: their age and gender of preference. So if their injured
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Speaker 2: gender of preference is twelve to thirteen year old girls,
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Speaker 2: they will become a girl's volleyball coach for that age group.
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Speaker 1: Now this might seem like an obvious question, but is
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Speaker 1: this process of self grooming? Is this a conscious process?
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Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
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Speaker 1: Yes, okay. Now, just as an aside here, you know,
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Speaker 1: it's been said that acts of certain acts of sexual assault,
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Speaker 1: for example, rape is not an actual sexual act, you know,
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Speaker 1: violent act? Is that the same thing here?
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Speaker 2: Well, I mean yes, I would agree that that's sometimes
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Speaker 2: the case. However, I believe the preferential child molester. They
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Speaker 2: do get sexual gratification out of they sexually desire children,
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Speaker 2: and that saying that their acts aren't necessarily violent, which
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Speaker 2: is also part of what it confuses boys and men,
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Speaker 2: right because they will sort of portray it in a
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Speaker 2: seductive way, like they've seduced the boy and they kind
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Speaker 2: of fell into the relationship.
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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, thank you for that so much, and.
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Speaker 2: Then it just sort of happened, you know, that's the
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Speaker 2: way they present it.
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Speaker 1: So you went through the first stage of the grooming process.
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Speaker 2: Second stage would be to groom the other people in
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Speaker 2: their victim target rich environment, like in that environment, so
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Speaker 2: they will groom the parents, like through establishing relationships with
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Speaker 2: the parents. They'll show up at your house for dinner.
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Speaker 2: They'll yeah, just become active members of the community so
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Speaker 2: that people see them and again let their guard down, right,
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Speaker 2: So they will you know, have examples in my book.
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Speaker 2: The priest would come over to his secretary's house for
7:30
Speaker 2: dinner all the time, and she had six kids, I
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Speaker 2: think it was so he noticed the boy that was
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Speaker 2: not getting attention and started giving him attention, and the
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Speaker 2: family just thought, this is awesome. He's getting the attention
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Speaker 2: he needs, so they will fill avoid they will. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: so stage two, they will Stage one they groom themselves.
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Speaker 2: Stage two they groom our section two whatever you want
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Speaker 2: to call it of grooming. The groom the people in
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Speaker 2: the environment. And then the third part of it, they
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Speaker 2: groom the child. So they the parents trust and loyalty,
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Speaker 2: and then they win the child's trust and loyalty. So
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Speaker 2: during the next stage, they're going to be lavishing the
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Speaker 2: child with attention, possibly gifts, certainly opportunities, including opportunities to
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Speaker 2: be alone. So in the athletic scene, for example, they
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Speaker 2: will offer to coach a kid who has potential, and
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Speaker 2: I mean they would pick the kid that actually has
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Speaker 2: potential and develop that child, maybe run them through athletic
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Speaker 2: exercises that are going to help build their endurance or
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Speaker 2: their strength or whatever it is they need to do.
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Speaker 2: Offer to ice them, massage their sore muscles, get them
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Speaker 2: in front of the people that they might want to
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Speaker 2: be in front of, that kind of thing, give them
8:43
Speaker 2: good recommendations. Definitely going to have opportunity though to be
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Speaker 2: alone with them, and also to sort of get them
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Speaker 2: used to maybe non sexual touch, so that could start
8:53
Speaker 2: by you know, by massaging their sore muscles after they've
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Speaker 2: put them through a ridiculously rigorous workout.
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Speaker 1: Right, So it seems like the the the gap, if
9:05
Speaker 1: you will, between that non sexual touch and the sexual
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Speaker 1: touch becomes very small in a sense. Who are the
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Speaker 1: individuals that are doing this?
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Speaker 2: The offenders?
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Speaker 1: Yes, I mean general of asking you to generalize.
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Speaker 2: But well, I mean the sad thing is they look
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Speaker 2: just like you and I. They you can't tell what
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Speaker 2: an offender looks like. The only difference between them and
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Speaker 2: you and I is that they have a sexual preference
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Speaker 2: for children.
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Speaker 1: Well, I guess my question is right. I wasn't intimating,
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Speaker 1: you know, do they have blue noses or ready?
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Speaker 2: Would not be easy?
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Speaker 1: Where is that coming from?
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Speaker 2: I mean, we don't know the cause of this, right,
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Speaker 2: Like I see it as demonic. Honestly, I'm not sure.
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Speaker 2: I can't answer that question. I wish I could, and
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Speaker 2: then like we could just push the easy button. But
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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I honestly don't know.
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Speaker 1: So have they majority of them have been abused?
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Speaker 2: Well, and that's a tough question. There is research that
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Speaker 2: doctor Santa Alter discusses in her book. I think I
10:07
Speaker 2: showed you that book on our last podcast, where she says,
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Speaker 2: like a lot of the prolific sex offenders that she
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Speaker 2: interviewed in the prison system, the psychopathic ones, in the beginning,
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Speaker 2: eighty percent of them were saying that they were abused. However,
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Speaker 2: when you simply threaten them with the polygraph, not even
10:24
Speaker 2: giving it to them, just threatening the polygraph, that number
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Speaker 2: dropped to thirty percent. So we don't actually know how
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Speaker 2: many were abused, but most of them claim that they
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Speaker 2: were abused, which is also one of the reasons that
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Speaker 2: a lot of the victims don't come forward because they
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Speaker 2: don't want everybody in society to think that they're going
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Speaker 2: to turn out to be pedophiles if they were abused.
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Speaker 2: So it's this yucky, nasty, vicious cycle.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, does their I mean, how do you how do
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Speaker 1: we categorize this behavior? You said demonic? Is it? Is
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Speaker 1: it to the nth degree? I mean, it's obviously abuse.
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Speaker 1: It's kind of horrific. Does it make sense that psychologically
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Speaker 1: there would be something that is.
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Speaker 2: Well, I would say that healthy, well people don't have
11:21
Speaker 2: sexual attraction to children.
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Speaker 1: So right, So, I mean it just seems to me
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Speaker 1: I realized there's not an easy answer for this, But
11:31
Speaker 1: it seems to me that there should almost should be
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Speaker 1: an answer.
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Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: Well, and even if it would be, I mean, people
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Speaker 1: who I would be curious about the attachment issues and
11:48
Speaker 1: so and so forth. What do you if any research
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Speaker 1: has been done into the kind of ideology of this?
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Speaker 2: You know, I can't answer that. That's not sort of,
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Speaker 2: I mean, offenders are not necessarily my my specialty, right, Like,
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Speaker 2: I specialize in working with the victims and why they
12:05
Speaker 2: don't report, so like, I mean, yeah, I mean all
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Speaker 2: I can say is that there's you know, yeah, there's
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Speaker 2: definitely something's not right, you know, the ideology of it. Again,
12:17
Speaker 2: you're talking about psychopathic sex offenders here in one regard,
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Speaker 2: and we know that we can't trust what they say.
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Speaker 2: So even if there was research, is it accurate? Right?
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Speaker 3: Right?
12:26
Speaker 1: Right? I mean, you know, to hear you say that
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Speaker 1: people aren't there's so many reasons why people aren't reporting this.
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Speaker 1: What have you discovered? What have you found out about
12:38
Speaker 1: the victims?
12:39
Speaker 2: In a sense, Well, I mean again, like just to
12:42
Speaker 2: kind of go back to what we were originally talking about,
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Speaker 2: this whole grooming process, right, Like, one of the reasons
12:48
Speaker 2: that boys and men are not disclosing is the profound
12:51
Speaker 2: levels of confusion that some of them have. Right. So,
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Speaker 2: you know, like we mentioned in the beginning, an offender
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Speaker 2: will spend weeks, months, even years building a relationship, you know,
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Speaker 2: and they're not just doing it with one person. They
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Speaker 2: might have multiple targets at different stages of the grooming
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Speaker 2: process that they're working towards. So they will spend weeks, months,
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Speaker 2: years befriending the you know, establishing himself, befriending the family,
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Speaker 2: befriending the victim, winning the victims trust, building an authentic
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Speaker 2: what the victim feels is an authentic relationship, whereas the
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Speaker 2: offender is doing it out of deception, right, So building
13:26
Speaker 2: this relationship, so the victim actually genuinely likes their offender.
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Speaker 2: So yeah, one of one of the reasons if it
13:34
Speaker 2: is like this type of abuse is because they feel
13:37
Speaker 2: guilty about having liked their offender prior to the abuse.
13:41
Speaker 2: And then of course the offender will do things like say, hey,
13:45
Speaker 2: you know, we're both going to be in trouble for this.
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Speaker 2: You know. One of the things that offenders often do
13:51
Speaker 2: is they will allow the victim to do things that
13:54
Speaker 2: for example, their parents won't let them do so, drive
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Speaker 2: a vehicle, smoke cigarettes, drink a beer, view sexually explicit material, swear,
14:03
Speaker 2: all of those things. And when they do these things,
14:07
Speaker 2: they will reward them for those behaviors that their parents
14:10
Speaker 2: wouldn't approve of, and then in doing so, they're also
14:13
Speaker 2: testing their victim's loyalty. So I know, I know it's
14:20
Speaker 2: all in my book. I I mean if it's like
14:22
Speaker 2: way more detail in my book as well. My book
14:24
Speaker 2: is about it's meant to help male victims understand why
14:28
Speaker 2: they don't want to talk about it and how they
14:30
Speaker 2: got into this situation. So, yes, so the offender will
14:34
Speaker 2: test their loyalties by allowing them to do these things,
14:37
Speaker 2: because in the offender's mind, he's saying, well, it's better
14:40
Speaker 2: to be in trouble for letting this guy smoke a
14:42
Speaker 2: cigarette or watch a porn movie or drive a vehicle
14:46
Speaker 2: than to be found out for having abused him. So
14:49
Speaker 2: they literally test their victims. Oftentimes, first they let them
14:52
Speaker 2: do things, and then they when the victim, you know,
14:55
Speaker 2: after a few weeks or whatever, if the victim doesn't
14:58
Speaker 2: tell and they're not in trouble, and then they'll move
15:00
Speaker 2: forward again they're doing all of this, you know, kind
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Speaker 2: of simultaneously, right, They're getting the victim used to this
15:06
Speaker 2: non sexual touch. They might start even slower with a
15:10
Speaker 2: young child. They might tickle them in front of their
15:12
Speaker 2: parents so that they the victim sees that their parents
15:15
Speaker 2: see them touching them and say that it's okay. Or
15:18
Speaker 2: they'll get older kids to wrestle with each other and
15:21
Speaker 2: then eventually take their have them take their shirts off,
15:23
Speaker 2: and then you know, maybe even join in or teach
15:26
Speaker 2: them how to subdue each other. Any of these kinds
15:28
Speaker 2: of things where they get the kid, the child used
15:31
Speaker 2: to being touched and then rewarding them for engaging in
15:34
Speaker 2: these masculine principles. And then somehow they introduce, you know,
15:39
Speaker 2: some sort of sexual content into it, whether it's you know,
15:42
Speaker 2: introducing pornography or asking them what they know about sex.
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Speaker 2: One of the boys that I profiled in my book,
15:49
Speaker 2: his offender started teasing him about his girlfriend and asking
15:53
Speaker 2: him what he knew about masturbation, gave him some pornography
15:57
Speaker 2: to look at, and he actually had a peep hole
15:59
Speaker 2: in this guy's in the boy's cabin, so he knew
16:02
Speaker 2: when he was masturbating. Then just happened to open the
16:04
Speaker 2: door at the right exact time. You know. The boy
16:08
Speaker 2: tried to cover himself, tried to like stop, you know,
16:10
Speaker 2: was stopping and stuff. But he's like, don't be embarrassed.
16:13
Speaker 2: This is what guys do. So so that kind of behavior,
16:16
Speaker 2: and then of course takes him home three days later,
16:19
Speaker 2: shakes his dad's hand, tells him, you know, they had
16:21
Speaker 2: a wonderful time and that's it, you know, and using
16:24
Speaker 2: the boy's erection against him, you know, as evidence, Look,
16:28
Speaker 2: you enjoyed this too, that kind of thing. So it's
16:31
Speaker 2: all meant to leave the victim confused.
16:35
Speaker 1: I know your book is a compilation of different profiles.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I interviewed thirteen different male victims about their experience
16:47
Speaker 2: of having been abused, and my specific questions were, why
16:51
Speaker 2: didn't you disclose this sooner? So yeah, and some of
16:55
Speaker 2: these boys were actually opened against by their own biological parents,
16:59
Speaker 2: which is almost unfathom mobile. But yet so many in
17:04
Speaker 2: my research.
17:05
Speaker 1: Were just out of curiosity. How did you find these individuals?
17:10
Speaker 2: I went to a conference where they gathered, so I
17:14
Speaker 2: just threw up a poster at an I've been to
17:16
Speaker 2: this conference a few times for training myself and then
17:18
Speaker 2: I just decided because it was a conference that mixed
17:21
Speaker 2: psychologists and victims, which is really where I know. But anyways,
17:24
Speaker 2: I went and I just threw up a poster and said, hey,
17:26
Speaker 2: if you want to talk about why you didn't talk
17:28
Speaker 2: about it, come talk to me. And fourteen men did.
17:32
Speaker 1: Wow. Is there a point at which some of the
17:39
Speaker 1: people you profiled did report it and or get help?
17:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, every one of them was at this conference, so
17:47
Speaker 2: every one of them had already disclosed to someone else.
17:50
Speaker 2: But my criteria was that they had to have waited
17:52
Speaker 2: at least one year, And so one of the guys
17:54
Speaker 2: I had to exclude because he hadn't waited a year.
17:56
Speaker 2: He told somebody right away, but it's unfortunate because he
18:00
Speaker 2: was shut down by the person he told. He went
18:02
Speaker 2: and told one of his guy friends that his ex
18:05
Speaker 2: had let herself into hit their former mutual house and
18:10
Speaker 2: he woke up and she was having sex with him,
18:12
Speaker 2: and his friends laughed and said score. Whereas he wasn't
18:15
Speaker 2: taking it as a score. You know, it was a violation, right.
18:18
Speaker 2: He was upset about this, like he didn't want to
18:20
Speaker 2: be with her.
18:23
Speaker 1: Kelly, this sounds like such a dire situation.
18:26
Speaker 3: I mean, how you know, when I think of this podcast,
18:35
Speaker 3: its trauma is just in and of itself in across
18:39
Speaker 3: the spectrum is so crazy.
18:40
Speaker 1: This seems particularly insidious and horrific.
18:46
Speaker 2: It is.
18:48
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts after writing this book? Where do
18:52
Speaker 1: you sit with all this? What are the questions you have?
18:56
Speaker 2: I mean, where do I sit with this? I guess?
18:58
Speaker 2: I mean I have a frustration because people still don't
19:01
Speaker 2: want to hear about it. They still don't want to
19:02
Speaker 2: talk about it. They still don't want to believe it's
19:04
Speaker 2: happening in their backyard. I mean, it's it's frustrating on
19:09
Speaker 2: some levels, you know, and it's sad because you know,
19:12
Speaker 2: these boys and men are not getting the support they need.
19:15
Speaker 2: They're not even getting recognized as victims, right like you know,
19:18
Speaker 2: you get, for example, you get a boy who's been
19:20
Speaker 2: abused at home and then he starts, you know, not
19:23
Speaker 2: being able to pay attention in school because he's all
19:26
Speaker 2: he can think about is what happened at home or
19:28
Speaker 2: what happened with his cousin. And then all of a sudden,
19:31
Speaker 2: he's being labeled as learning disabled or a bad student,
19:35
Speaker 2: or you know, being bullied because he's not paying attention
19:39
Speaker 2: or because he's you know, getting teased, and it can
19:42
Speaker 2: just be such a yucky, slippery slope, right, And so
19:45
Speaker 2: these boys were missing them in elementary school, that this
19:48
Speaker 2: is part of what's happened to them. And you know
19:52
Speaker 2: if they've you know, bought into the societal message that
19:55
Speaker 2: existed in your in my generation, which was that you know,
19:58
Speaker 2: boys don't aren't allowed to have any feeling other than anger,
20:01
Speaker 2: you know, and boys always want sex, that kind of stuff.
20:04
Speaker 2: Boys can always defend themselves. These little boys are just
20:07
Speaker 2: you know, so confused that they often do stay quiet,
20:11
Speaker 2: they start to isolate, or they act out right because
20:14
Speaker 2: they're angry, and rightfully angry. So you know, it's crazy.
20:21
Speaker 1: In your opinion, what do we need to do as
20:26
Speaker 1: a culture and how do we do?
20:30
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, we need to educate ourselves. We need
20:33
Speaker 2: to be aware like that. That is exactly what my
20:35
Speaker 2: whole book is about, honestly, guy, not just to make
20:37
Speaker 2: a pitch from my book, but lots of free podcasts.
20:42
Speaker 1: Book.
20:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, I mean that's my whole point is
20:46
Speaker 2: that we need to be aware of this. You know,
20:49
Speaker 2: like read my book. There is no there's no really
20:52
Speaker 2: graphic stuff in my book, Like I do reference one
20:55
Speaker 2: tiny bit of sexual abuse in my book, but it's
20:57
Speaker 2: just meant to educate people about what's really going on,
21:01
Speaker 2: like how we're missing this.
21:04
Speaker 1: How are missing this? And how are we missing this again?
21:08
Speaker 2: Like you know, missing that the boy who's all of
21:10
Speaker 2: a sudden had this drastic change in character, going from
21:14
Speaker 2: being you know, the good boy goes to church with
21:16
Speaker 2: his grandma and grandpa to smoking drugs and dark poetry
21:20
Speaker 2: and being promiscuous. That it's not just because he became
21:23
Speaker 2: a teenager. Somebody introduced him to something, you know, and
21:26
Speaker 2: that you know, you know that not everybody that starts
21:32
Speaker 2: out good stays good, that kind of thing you know
21:34
Speaker 2: that you know, churches are terrible for like missing this
21:39
Speaker 2: for example, I always you know, like to talk about
21:42
Speaker 2: how offenders will infiltrate these organizations that have you know,
21:46
Speaker 2: pure and honest goals, right, but yeah, then you know
21:50
Speaker 2: they they pick on They might pick on the kid,
21:52
Speaker 2: for example, who's already got a history of lying, and
21:55
Speaker 2: then offend against him because they know nobody's gonna believe
21:57
Speaker 2: him anyway. Yeah, just being aware of their tactic. Honestly,
22:01
Speaker 2: think the biggest thing we need to do is be
22:03
Speaker 2: aware of the offenders techniques, then we can smell it.
22:07
Speaker 1: Well. I mean, I think you just laying out these
22:10
Speaker 1: three different grooming stages was really helpful and interesting and
22:16
Speaker 1: eye opening for myself certainly, and I'm sure for our listeners.
22:19
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about the revelations that came to
22:24
Speaker 1: light through the women's gymnastics team and they've used there,
22:28
Speaker 1: and then of course with Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein.
22:35
Speaker 1: With Jeffrey Epstein that seems to be there was this
22:39
Speaker 1: whole obviously grooming process going on as well there.
22:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And the other thing that we need to
22:46
Speaker 2: see is how connected those people were, right, like, they
22:51
Speaker 2: work together and this is what we were seeing back
22:54
Speaker 2: when I was a police lady. For example, we would
22:57
Speaker 2: see our target offenders compute and we would send it
23:01
Speaker 2: off to Tech Crimes to be analyzed, and they would say, hey,
23:05
Speaker 2: here's three hundred more addresses of other pedophiles that they've
23:09
Speaker 2: been trading images with and we would just say, thank
23:12
Speaker 2: you very much. We do not have the capacity to
23:14
Speaker 2: investigate that, which is terrible. And you know, like some
23:17
Speaker 2: of the bigger agencies in Canada have been told to
23:20
Speaker 2: not investigate these things anymore because the court system can't
23:24
Speaker 2: handle it. That's where we're at, Like these guys are
23:27
Speaker 2: getting away with it and with like you know, the
23:30
Speaker 2: computers now, they're so connected, it's easy for them to
23:33
Speaker 2: be connected.
23:35
Speaker 1: Is there is is the are we seeing as a culture,
23:40
Speaker 1: as a global culture, Are we seeing more and more
23:43
Speaker 1: of this or would becoming at least a little more
23:48
Speaker 1: aware that this is going on?
23:50
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you you probably hear the buzzwords human
23:53
Speaker 2: trafficking all the everywhere, right, Like, I mean, human trafficking
23:56
Speaker 2: involves adults being trafficked for employet purposes too. But they
24:02
Speaker 2: say that human trafficking is the largest industry in the world,
24:05
Speaker 2: like the most lucrative. Isn't that insane? Like you know,
24:09
Speaker 2: I mean, right, I think I think there are a
24:13
Speaker 2: lot there is a lot more going on, I mean,
24:15
Speaker 2: and I think it is getting more prolific because they're
24:19
Speaker 2: more openly recruiting, say young girls to recruit young girls,
24:23
Speaker 2: or young girls to recruit young boys in high schools
24:26
Speaker 2: where they're I don't know, it's like I kind of
24:29
Speaker 2: look at it, like, you know, anything goes on TV anymore.
24:32
Speaker 2: You can watch a movie on how to commit a
24:34
Speaker 2: murder and get away with it, right, Like, we have
24:37
Speaker 2: made evil, so we've romanticized it and made it so
24:42
Speaker 2: exciting and acceptable that kids are not knowing that in
24:47
Speaker 2: our minds this is fiction. Right in their minds, it's reality.
24:51
Speaker 1: So as we kind of get ready to close down here,
24:54
Speaker 1: the people listening to this, obviously therapists, coaches, survivors, and
24:59
Speaker 1: come nations thereof what do they need to hear? What
25:04
Speaker 1: do they need to know and be aware of?
25:09
Speaker 2: Well, I would say, if you're working with a man,
25:11
Speaker 2: like be aware of the reasons that boys and men
25:13
Speaker 2: don't disclose, and be aware that some of the reasons
25:16
Speaker 2: that they're coming to you for help, for example, if
25:19
Speaker 2: they're struggling with anger issues, or if they're in marital therapy,
25:24
Speaker 2: and for example the man is being accused of being
25:27
Speaker 2: emotionally avoidant. Consider sexual abuse because anybody who's got a
25:33
Speaker 2: secret that they don't want to disclose really become avoidant
25:40
Speaker 2: of any intimacy out of fear that they might accidentally disclose, right,
25:45
Speaker 2: so they you know, So if you've got a man
25:47
Speaker 2: who's engaging in like distraction techniques, for example, we're becoming
25:53
Speaker 2: a workaholic or an alcoholic. Right, they could be doing
25:56
Speaker 2: these things to keep so busy that they don't think
25:59
Speaker 2: about their abuse.
26:02
Speaker 3: You know.
26:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's of intimacy in a relationship, sexual promiscuity. They're
26:06
Speaker 2: cheating on their spouses when they're not open to that. Right,
26:09
Speaker 2: This could be because you know what happens oftentimes if
26:13
Speaker 2: a boy is abused by a man, you know, he
26:16
Speaker 2: wants to go out and prove his masculinity to himself
26:19
Speaker 2: and to the world. So he hooks up with this
26:22
Speaker 2: woman who's initially very complimentary, very you know, fills that
26:26
Speaker 2: void for him. But then as the relationship matures and
26:30
Speaker 2: you know, they just get on with regular life and
26:32
Speaker 2: she stops throwing out all those compliments, you know, just
26:34
Speaker 2: because they get into a comfort zone and that sort
26:37
Speaker 2: of honeymoon phase phase wears off. He still needs that
26:40
Speaker 2: void field. He still needs to hear that he's the
26:43
Speaker 2: stud muffin he always was. He still needs to hear
26:46
Speaker 2: that he's a real man. So he may be going
26:48
Speaker 2: out and finding other women that are willing to tell
26:50
Speaker 2: him that.
26:52
Speaker 1: When you were writing a book, or as you were
26:54
Speaker 1: writing the book, where there's some things that surprised.
26:58
Speaker 2: You yeah, And I often say one of the reasons
27:03
Speaker 2: that surprised me, Well, two things that surprised me was
27:07
Speaker 2: the trauma response, the body's ability for a trauma victim
27:11
Speaker 2: to actually bury it. That I didn't know because I
27:14
Speaker 2: was taught when I was a police lady. We were
27:16
Speaker 2: taught that repressed memories, we just stay away from them.
27:19
Speaker 2: Now I understand that it's the body's extreme response to trauma.
27:22
Speaker 2: So that was good for me to learn. And then
27:26
Speaker 2: the other one of the other reasons that surprised me
27:29
Speaker 2: was how many of these boys were not disclosing their
27:33
Speaker 2: sexual abuse to protect their families, whether it was to
27:38
Speaker 2: protect their parents' reputation or to protect their parents from
27:41
Speaker 2: information they thought would be too hard to handle, or
27:44
Speaker 2: because they didn't think their parents had the capacity to
27:47
Speaker 2: handle it. And I talk all about that in my book.
27:50
Speaker 2: So that surprised me.
27:52
Speaker 1: Where the parents weren't the perpetrators.
27:54
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, Like one of the boys in my book,
27:57
Speaker 2: his name's Ricky. His mom had MS and his dad
28:00
Speaker 2: was very fixated focused on tending to his mom, which
28:04
Speaker 2: he needed to be. She was in a wheelchair. He
28:07
Speaker 2: was being abused by his neighbor, He was being abused
28:09
Speaker 2: by a cousin, but he said, I couldn't tell my dad,
28:12
Speaker 2: in part because he had too much on his plate,
28:15
Speaker 2: but also because his dad had really, you know, strict
28:18
Speaker 2: views about homosexuality and he'd and because Ricky was confused
28:22
Speaker 2: about whether or not he was a willing participant, or
28:25
Speaker 2: because he'd let the abuse go on too long because
28:27
Speaker 2: his abuser was giving him attention, which he needed, so
28:32
Speaker 2: he was therefore confused about his own degree of willingness
28:36
Speaker 2: in the situation. So yeah, it's really I said, like,
28:39
Speaker 2: the reasons that boys and men do not report are
28:42
Speaker 2: multifaceted and across their entire lifetimes, depending on when their
28:46
Speaker 2: abuse happened and their stage of development and their understanding.
28:50
Speaker 2: So it's really complex.
28:52
Speaker 1: For boys, it seems, you know, it seems so almost hopeless.
29:01
Speaker 1: I don't want to use that word, but it's I mean,
29:03
Speaker 1: this topic is so horrific. People don't want to talk
29:08
Speaker 1: about this, right.
29:09
Speaker 2: You're right. Honestly, I thought i'd be retired by now.
29:12
Speaker 2: I probably sell fifteen books a month, Like I'm ashamed
29:14
Speaker 2: to admit that because I thought they would. I thought
29:16
Speaker 2: I was gonna be the next Brene Brown that everybody
29:18
Speaker 2: would be all over my book. Nobody wants to talk
29:22
Speaker 2: about it. The people that buy my book are often
29:23
Speaker 2: the man, the male victims, and I get the most
29:27
Speaker 2: heart felt thank you emails and letters from people. One
29:31
Speaker 2: of them sent them through a prison guard, especially in
29:33
Speaker 2: the inmates in jail that have been sexually abused. They
29:35
Speaker 2: are like one of them said, it's like you've been
29:38
Speaker 2: following me around my whole life, Like you nailed everything
29:43
Speaker 2: that happened to me, Like you explained everything. Like yeah.
29:47
Speaker 2: Like once a month I get like the most beautiful,
29:50
Speaker 2: long heartfelt email from psychologists or mail survivors or yeah,
29:56
Speaker 2: just someone who like I had one gal she her
30:00
Speaker 2: brother had disclosed to her. She went out and bought
30:03
Speaker 2: five copies of my book and we did a family
30:05
Speaker 2: and family meeting, intervention whatever you want to say. And
30:09
Speaker 2: it was interesting because at the end of it, the
30:13
Speaker 2: dad reached out to me and even though we'd gone
30:15
Speaker 2: through this whole disclosure supporting his son, he still didn't
30:18
Speaker 2: disclose to his family that he'd been abused. It was crazy.
30:23
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's so.
30:24
Speaker 2: Prolific, it is so predominant.
30:28
Speaker 1: Do you find that therapists as a cohort also don't
30:35
Speaker 1: even want to talk about this.
30:37
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know that they don't want to talk
30:38
Speaker 2: about it, but they miss it right, Like when I
30:42
Speaker 2: did my dissertation. And I'm sorry, I'm going to brag
30:44
Speaker 2: for a sec. But when I did my dissertation, my
30:47
Speaker 2: one of my supervisors, he said, Kelly, I learned so
30:50
Speaker 2: much from you. He said, like it wasn't even healthy,
30:53
Speaker 2: but I couldn't put it down. He said, I read
30:54
Speaker 2: it all in one night. I was like, like, that's
30:57
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty eight pages, and like other professors
31:01
Speaker 2: from u of A were telling me, like, you are
31:04
Speaker 2: making me rethink all of my stockmail victims. You know.
31:09
Speaker 2: So when you keep in mind that some of these
31:11
Speaker 2: boys and men actually did block the memories of their abuse,
31:15
Speaker 2: plus they don't want to disclose depending on how they
31:19
Speaker 2: expect to be treated.
31:24
Speaker 1: This this issue, this topic of blocking the abuse, is
31:33
Speaker 1: that essentially what repression.
31:35
Speaker 2: Is, yes, okay, pressed memories, yeah yeah. It also could
31:41
Speaker 2: be manifest as dissociative identity disorder as well.
31:44
Speaker 1: Right, Okay. The name of the book is Men to
31:50
Speaker 1: Unspoken Truth about Male Sexual Abuse. Will have links up
31:54
Speaker 1: at the show notes page at the Trauma Diapers podcast
31:56
Speaker 1: dot com. Kelly, what's the best way for people to
31:59
Speaker 1: get in con tech with you?
32:01
Speaker 2: Kellypalfee dot com.
32:03
Speaker 1: Very simple and people can get the book there too.
32:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, or on Amazon, Barnes and Noble Chapters.
32:09
Speaker 1: Okay, well, look, you know, I mean it's inspiring that
32:16
Speaker 1: you are doing this. I mean that you're out there
32:18
Speaker 1: doing this work. We need someone like I mean, as
32:21
Speaker 1: we do. We need someone like you who's courageous enough.
32:27
Speaker 1: Come on, this is crazy.
32:30
Speaker 2: Oh thank you guys. Hey, can I show you one
32:32
Speaker 2: more thing that we've done? I just I'm sorry, I
32:34
Speaker 2: just got to leave the camera for one second. We
32:38
Speaker 2: have myself and a colleague have created a children's book
32:41
Speaker 2: series which is not on my website yet but we'll
32:44
Speaker 2: be soon, but it is on Amazon. It's meant for
32:46
Speaker 2: parents to be It's called the Creating Personal Safety Series.
32:50
Speaker 2: This particular book is called The Unsafe Neighbor, and it's
32:53
Speaker 2: meant to help parents have those awkward but very necessary
32:57
Speaker 2: conversations about grooming about someone who we think is safe,
33:01
Speaker 2: who starts out as safe, can turn out to be
33:04
Speaker 2: not safe at all. And it's I mean, it's pretty vanilla.
33:06
Speaker 2: It's not it's not completely vanilla. But it's pretty vanilla.
33:09
Speaker 2: It's not it's it's not meant to traumatize, but just
33:11
Speaker 2: to educate, educate.
33:13
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, Well send me that link. Where where can
33:18
Speaker 1: that be? Also purchased on Amazon?
33:20
Speaker 2: Yes, it's on Amazon. Yeah, and I'm gonna put it
33:22
Speaker 2: on my website very soon.
33:23
Speaker 1: All we'll have that linked up also, Kelly, thank you
33:26
Speaker 1: so much. Welcome back anytime. Thank you, all right, take
33:29
Speaker 1: care
33:30
Speaker 2: You too, Bye bye bye