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Toughest Damage Mechanisms Don't Give Advanced Warnings (featuring Chad Patschke) · Upon Further Inspection

0:00
Greg: I got an off the wall question for you, Chad.
0:23
Greg: refining industry versus chemical industry, what would you say, their toughest damage mechanisms are?
0:32
Greg: What do you think the Mechanisms are that keep them up at night are that they spend the most money trying to manage?
0:40
Chad: Oh, well, the, the toughest ones are the ones that don't give you any advanced warning.
0:47
Chad: and a lot of times, like HTHA, you don't have a lot of advanced warnings around those, that damage mechanism.
0:55
Chad: And so I think, you know, we, we learned a lot from the, uh, the incident and we've, we've grown as an industry, not only, what, what the Nelson Curve, should look like, but also what NDE we can use to help try to find it, what operating conditions.
1:13
Chad: so, it's, it's the ones that don't give you a lot of notice is, is one answer to your question.
1:19
Chad: The other one is, the ones that, as an industry, we, let's see, how can I word this?
1:26
Chad: We, we don't think it would be as significant of an event, so we don't, give it as much attention as we should.
1:33
Chad: corrosion under insulation, for example.
1:35
Chad: you know, a a, a lot of.
1:38
Chad: Sites are struggling with their CUI program, getting funding for it, being allocated, the resources.
1:44
Chad: I am a proponent of, if you have a CUI program or special emphasis catchup program for your CUI, having a dedicated installation crew and scaffolding crew for that program.
1:59
Chad: 'cause a lot of times they get pulled off.
2:01
Chad: You know, maintenance is in charge of scaffolding and installation, so we got other stuff we need to do, so they get pulled off and it just, that, that program just lags.
2:10
Chad: and so I think, two que or two answers.
2:13
Chad: One, the, the ones that are difficult to find using NDE, and two, the ones that are just everywhere and take a lot of funding to, to, to, to inspect for.
2:25
Greg: Yeah.
2:25
Greg: Yeah.
2:26
Greg: Thanks.
2:27
Greg: No, that, yeah.
2:28
Greg: Yeah, you did.
2:29
Chad: other one.
2:30
Chad: the other one I call it the round to it is,'cause we always say we're gonna get a round to it is, buried piping, inspecting our identifying and inspecting our buried piping.
2:39
Chad: We still suffer as an industry, getting good programs around, our, our buried piping and soil to air interfaces.
2:49
Greg: Yep.
2:51
Chad: More and more as an industry, they're, they're bringing that up out of the ground, which I appreciate.
2:56
Chad: But there are some facilities out there that are very old, and it was just easier to put it underground and, and forget about it.
3:03
Chad: And, to me that's one that,
3:04
Greg: I like that.
3:06
Chad: really struggle.
3:07
Greg: But what, what you made me think of when you said that is, what do you think about the proliferation, you know, the growing use of drones and robotics and how people are fitting those into their programs?
3:20
Chad: I, I, I think there's it like, heater inspections.
3:26
Chad: I, I was at one site, that had, they were using AI technology and drones to fly, they were flying drones over their pipe racks.
3:36
Chad: And AI was identifying every little area of damaged insulation, for their CUI program.
3:43
Chad: But what was happening was the inspector was getting, you know, a 600 page report.
3:49
Chad: And now that individual was having to dedicate their time to go through there and say, no, this is, you know, this is bs.
3:55
Chad: We're not gonna worry about that.
3:57
Chad: And so there, there, there pluses and minuses to the, these drone inspections, I think for like, stack inspections and heater inspections and, what, where the, the, you know, the, there aren't a significant amount of unique damage mechanisms.
4:12
Chad: I think they have their purpose, but my hope is.
4:16
Chad: That we don't lose sight of that human interface that has to make that educated decision based on, what they're seeing and what they know about that process.
4:26
Chad: What, which can't, I guess you could build it into AI over time, is that, that in-depth knowledge of what's happening in that process and what upsets and, and IOW exceedances have occurred, since the last inspection.
4:41
Chad: And that's that human interaction that you really need.
4:44
Chad: And I, I don't wanna lose sight of that.
4:46
Greg: Good point.
4:47
Greg: Yeah, I like that.
4:48
Greg: so you brought up John a few times.
4:52
Greg: We brought up API, just checking back in with you.
4:55
Greg: I remember a presentation, John, and you gave at the summit, the API inspection summit a, a few summits ago, and it was an update on a lot of your findings in those audits.
5:09
Greg: and I think there were like 10 areas for improvement that you guys had identified for inspection departments, professionals.
5:18
Greg: And three of the things that stuck with me were that one finding was that we're not doing enough data analysis.
5:26
Greg: And that kind of points back to something you just said a while ago about analysis.
5:30
Greg: They don't wanna make it, they did that.
5:32
Greg: We don't have time to analyze things, that's why we're not improving or making a different decision here.
5:37
Greg: Right.
5:38
Greg: he also said that another challenge is that inspectors have to deal with a mountain of data.
5:46
Greg: And he also said another challenge is that the data pointing to the equipment that has problems or is about to have problems is typically in about three to 5% of that mountain.
6:00
Chad: Yeah.
6:00
Greg: Yeah.
6:01
Greg: So that, and then, and then what that made me think of is how, a program like RBI, if you implement it correctly and thoroughly, should be a constant surveillance system.
6:12
Greg: You should constantly be seeing things that are not worth doing and things that, Hey, we didn't know we needed to do this.
6:19
Greg: You know, and it'll spot those snakes in the grass for you.
6:22
Greg: Well, what happened?
6:23
Greg: Something changed.
6:25
Greg: Now enter I ws something changed.
6:30
Greg: What changed?
6:31
Greg: Okay.
6:31
Greg: And that's Brandon, when you brought this up earlier, Brandon and I talk about this stuff all the time.
6:36
Greg: We're super geeks and nerds.
6:37
Greg: So, so we talk about this and, and, and what I thought is that, and, so I'm gonna bring up another topic here for you kind of, is when we talk about all this, quality improvement of our CML programs, A-K-A-C-M-L optimization programs, right?
6:54
Greg: And I think about the important, valuable role there of, let's say in the case that you mentioned earlier where, off of a question Brandon asked you is when they continue inspecting these CML locations that are offering no value whatsoever, but they haven't done an analysis of it, so they're afraid to cut'em out.
7:17
Greg: You know, they don't have a, a leg to stand on, to be defensible.
7:22
Greg: but then you're able to come in and do those types of things and do them, with a lot of confidence and science and systematics addicts.
7:30
Greg: How do you see, the industry embracing this right now or not embracing it?
7:35
Greg: You're probably running across this stuff, I'm sure,
7:38
Chad: we, we talked a little bit about this before, but it's that, fear of liability.
7:44
Chad: If I, if I say it's okay to take these, CMLs off of this circuit, you know, am I, am I exposing myself as an inspector to some liability?
7:55
Chad: So you gotta have, a, a documented here I go back to documented management systems, a documented process that that clearly explains, how you're going to identify those, what.
8:09
Chad: Involvement from other parts of the organization, so that there is buy-in across and there's some, checks and balances there before you pull those, CMLs out.
8:19
Chad: But I don't think it's happening enough, right now in the industry because of that fear of liability.
8:26
Chad: And they, they know it's the right thing to do, but actually, inactivating those CMLs, it's, it's, it's tough for those inspectors.
8:34
Chad: 'cause they, they feel like they're taking that ownership solely on, themselves.
8:39
Chad: But if you have that, that cross team, back to that business unit model where operations, corrosion, materials engineer, inspection process engineers are, are all involved and say, this is what we're thinking.
8:52
Chad: Do we agree with this?
8:53
Chad: Do we have iws established where if we do, go outside those parameters that we would, we would bring some of those back in.
9:01
Chad: But we're confident now in the, in the operating process that we're running that we, we can, we can take those out.
9:07
Greg: I'm glad, I'm glad we're hitting on this because, in the US we, we hear a term in PSM recognizing generally accepted, good engineering practice as reap whatever we're doing technically needs to be defensible.
9:22
Greg: So if I've, if I perform a study, do an analysis of all these CMLs I have and I wind up with using, recognized and generally accepted good engineering practices, I can substantiate why we're turning these off or idling these for a while.
9:41
Greg: Because as a business, again, to go back to complete the picture, we gotta make money at the end of the day too.
9:47
Greg: So the money that we save from the budget, eliminating things that are adding absolutely no value, that money gets moved to other places where it's gonna bring value.
9:59
Greg: Now, let's say I, now, let's say hypothetically I'm in a position like that and let's say, you know, I hope not, but let's say I have a leak on some piping that I decided to eliminate some CMLs on.
10:14
Greg: But I went, I stepped through all the right things, I did all the right substantiation, so forth and so on, and yet this leak still occurred.
10:25
Greg: Would that be something to, to be concerned?
10:28
Greg: I mean, if I was, as if I had, you know, the best corrosion materials, engineers involved in the process, the right inspection, people involved in the process, all the data, everything.
10:39
Greg: Because inevitably there still will be leaks.
10:42
Greg: Inevitably there's still imperfection.
10:45
Greg: Right.
10:46
Greg: And I'm asking you this because you're right there at the interface with, the regulatory agencies and people looking at it like that, yet not a part of them.
10:56
Greg: What, what do you think about that?
10:57
Greg: And, and then, and wait.
10:59
Greg: CML optimization is just one thing, right?
11:03
Greg: There's a lot of other things.
11:04
Greg: We go through those kinds of thought processes when we're trying to optimize what we're doing.
11:09
Chad: Right.
11:10
Chad: I, I, I mean, I guess I would argue if you did that analysis and you chose to, eliminate some CMLs because of that leak was probably not related to, corrosion or a damaged mechanism is something had to change in the process.
11:28
Chad: Or you had a bad quality weld, during fabrication and it decided to show itself, which, you know, it inspection typically isn't gonna catch that you're not, unless you're doing, RT at well joints and looking for some sort of damage mechanism, you're not gonna catch that unless you, if you missed it during the, the fabrication stage.
11:46
Chad: So I would, I would argue that something had to have changed and your, your root cause analysis should lead you there not to, going back to the shotgun approach of, uh, CMLs across that piping circuit.
12:01
Chad: And so it's that, And I see it, lack of education and understanding of how mechanical integrity programs work.
12:08
Chad: That would drive somebody to say, okay, that's it.
12:10
Chad: We're, we're saturating this piping circuit with CMLs.
12:14
Chad: but truly, educated and knowledgeable and, and industry leading programs will go back to asking that question, what changed and what caused, you know, what, what was the true cause of that leak?
12:27
Chad: Putting another CML on that line would not have identified that because we looked at the data and we haven't had any corrosion in this line in the last 20 years.
12:36
Chad: And so, but you gotta have that work process filled out and, and buy in from not just the inspector, but, but others.
12:45
Greg: Yeah.
12:45
Greg: Process is huge.
12:46
Greg: I it, I've seen that happen and it's usually because something changed in the process.
12:52
Greg: or a lot of times it is.
12:53
Greg: And that's where the iws come into play and where they can be very important.
12:58
Greg: So, yeah.
13:00
Greg: Thanks Ted.
13:00
Greg: That okay?
13:02
Greg: I, I, I think my thinking is okay.
13:06
Chad: Yeah.
13:06
Chad: Yeah.
13:07
Chad: I mean, I, I, I'm all for, CML optimization, educated decisions, too often I see, you know, they, inspection group gets, a directive.
13:17
Chad: You gotta get IO Ws implemented.
13:19
Chad: You gotta do a damage mechanism review.
13:21
Chad: And so in order to get their, their annual raise, they, they hire a consultant, they come in, they do the damage mechanism review.
13:30
Chad: It, it looks a lot like the, the process flow diagram in the back of, uh, 5 71 I think is, is that the API damage mechanism?
13:38
Chad: it looks a lot like that.
13:40
Chad: and then it goes on a shelf and they get their back padded.
13:43
Chad: 'cause they, they executed their, objective for that year and it just sits on the shelf and, and it's not part of the day-to-day decision making.
13:52
Chad: Same thing with I ws, oh, we, you know, bring in a consultant.
13:55
Chad: We get a spreadsheet with all of these, parameters that we need to, stay within.
14:00
Chad: And then it sits on a shelf and the, the, capital to install the instrumentation that you need to monitor those iws that keeps getting pushed out and pushed out.
14:10
Chad: the alerting system, doesn't work or it works too good and everybody gets 5,000 emails a day.
14:17
Chad: And so it, if everything is a crisis, nothing is a crisis, right?
14:21
Chad: And so you gotta find that sweet spot of, making those systems manageable and providing the information that you need, effectively with the resources that you have.
14:32
Greg: Makes perfect sense.
14:34
Chad: Yeah, it does.
14:34
Chad: But it's hard to do.
14:35
Chad: And, and as an industry, we struggle and, and I get it.
14:40
Chad: And, but if, if we could focus on effective damage mechanism, review, implementation, effective IOW implementation, effective, IDMS data analysis, keeping all of that evergreen and focusing, you know, 80% of our effort on the right, 20% of our equipment, as an industry, we'd be heading in the right direction for sure.
15:06
Greg: And, and to be able to successfully integrate all that stuff, that,
15:10
Chad: integrate all of that.
15:12
Chad: And.
15:13
Chad: Involve not just it, it's not just a siloed inspection program.
15:18
Chad: It's owned by operations, process engineering, reliability engineering, and inspection goes back to that NASCAR analogy,
15:27
Greg: It's a great analogy.
15:29
Chad: operator knows how hard he's pushing that car.
15:32
Chad: he knows every time there's a little shimmy, every time there's a, a, a, you know, I, I hit a bump in the, in the, in the track, and I need to communicate that to my team.
15:41
Chad: And the, those experts in their areas are gonna react accordingly based on, history and what we've, what we've documented in our DMR and IOW
15:52
Greg: Yeah.
15:53
Greg: And it's awesome when you can get everybody to the point of a sense of shared ownership at
16:00
Chad: it.
16:01
Chad: And it, it's, it's achievable.
16:02
Chad: I've seen it happen.
16:04
Chad: and it, it just, you know, it, it warms my heart when, the process engineer is barging in the inspector's office and says, Hey, would this just happen?
16:12
Chad: I need to let you know, and we're gonna talk about it tomorrow morning.
16:16
Chad: And it's, it's that kind of communication that keeps those programs effective and you don't have, it cuts down on discovery work during turnarounds and, um, you got, you got less leaks while you're running.
16:29
Greg: Yep, yep.
16:31
Greg: Yeah,
16:31
Chad: which leads me, we are as an industry, Since I started, we've gotten a lot better at process safety and, preventing leaks and minimizing leaks.
16:43
Chad: And one of my, things that I lose, I, I lose sleep over a lot of things, but one of the things I lose sleep over at night is how do we keep the younger generation, how do we teach them to respect the process?
16:56
Chad: Like when, when you and I were first cutting our teeth out there, Greg, I saw a lot of fires, I saw a lot of leaks.
17:03
Chad: I was on the emergency response team, I was, you know, put on my red cape, go out there, put a fire out a month, right?
17:10
Chad: And as, as process safety programs have gotten better, we're seeing fewer and fewer incidents.
17:15
Chad: And so the younger generation, I don't think they have the same respect for the process as, as you and I, grew up having.
17:23
Chad: And so how do we keep that awareness, that respect for the process and, you know, concern of what a really bad day looks like without having to go through those bad days.
17:34
Chad: So if, if, you know, maybe inspection, hearing can, can take a poll or something, but we gotta figure out how to maintain that respect for that process.
17:43
Chad: or else we're gonna lose it.
17:44
Chad: And it's gonna be that, you know, that 25 year sign curve that I talked about earlier, we're gonna, we're gonna start seeing, potentially see more incidents because we've lost that respect for the process.
17:56
Greg: Fully agree.
17:57
Greg: Yep.
17:58
Branden: it, it kind of feels like we're at that point right now.
18:01
Branden: a little bit.
18:01
Branden: I mean, in the last, what, two, two years, there've been a significant number of, newsworthy events that have happened.
18:12
Chad: so I have a theory on that and I've, I've been saying this for the last few years.
18:15
Chad: so, my acute concern about the industry is, what happened during COVID.
18:22
Chad: We had a lot of people trying to manage these programs that were, trying to do it from home instead of that daily fa face-to-face.
18:32
Chad: So we, we had a long stretch where we were trying, we immediately had to figure out how to manage these programs remotely and, and, you know, continue to operate, but doing it from home.
18:44
Chad: And so I'm concerned that, five to 10 years after the whole COVID, shutdown, that we're gonna see a spike.
18:53
Chad: 'cause it usually takes five to 10 years for those incidents to, to bubble to the top or the results of the, the, the lack of full program management to bubble to the top.
19:04
Chad: So I think we're seeing that now, and I attribute part of that to that, that huge turnover and of, of resources and working from home, trying to figure out how to manage those programs to some of the, incidents that we're seeing these days.
19:19
Branden: And, and probably the massive push, right?
19:22
Branden: I mean, they were making money hand over fist, coming outta COVID and, and the massive, the massive push of just keep running, keep running, keep running, pushing turnarounds.
19:32
Branden: It's actually a good point.
19:33
Branden: I hadn't, hadn't thought through that.
19:34
Chad: they were making, they were making money, but also remember crude went negative during COVID, no airplanes.
19:42
Chad: you know, everything was shut down.
19:43
Chad: So it, it was a huge hit to a lot of, refiners when, when, when you're paying people to take crude, it's, it, it's, it's hard to make money.
19:54
Chad: So, you know, that they had that huge dip and then, yeah, it, it, it, it eventually recovered.
20:00
Branden: It skyrocketed,
20:01
Chad: but it was all of a sudden, all the day-to-day activities that happened at the refinery for process safety are now trying to be managed from home.
20:10
Chad: And we're trying to figure out how to do everything electronically.
20:13
Chad: And, and so that's my acute concern, for process safety events.
20:18
Chad: My chronic concern is, keeping that respect for the process for the younger generations.
20:25
Branden: yeah.
20:25
Branden: You're right, right.
20:25
Branden: The, sorry, I'm still going back to the, the timing, right.
20:28
Branden: So, so we had that huge dip, so pull back on everything, try and manage as, as, as best as we can,
20:36
Chad: Bare minimum.
20:37
Chad: Yeah.
20:38
Branden: and then that led into fire on all cylinders and run hot, hot, heavy, and hard.
20:44
Branden: And the combination of those two, yeah.
20:47
Branden: Okay.
20:48
Branden: I can see That,
20:48
Chad: that and, and a mass exodus of a lot of expertise go into other industries because, we didn't know, you know, if we were ever gonna fly again or drive again.
21:00
Chad: And, so, a lot of people switch to it, industry working from home, you know, taking that career path.
21:06
Chad: So you got all three of those, factors in the equation.
21:09
Chad: And I think that's why I'll never be able to prove it.
21:12
Chad: But that's my theory of, why we're seeing a spike in incidents recently.
21:16
Branden: Well, hopefully it doesn't get proven out.
21:18
Chad: No, I don't want it to, I wanna be wrong.
21:21
Branden: Yeah.
21:22
Branden: Yeah, Yeah.
21:23
Branden: That's interesting.
21:25
Branden: so, you've been with ETHOS now since 2014, so we're talking 12 years.
21:30
Branden: you mentioned a little bit about your day to day, but like, kind of what's, and, and you're also, you know, you're Mr.
21:35
Branden: Office view of the weak guy.
21:37
Branden: what's, what's been the best part about being a part of Ethos?
21:41
Chad: I've got, you know, I come in and look at programs for three and a half to five days and, and then leave.
21:48
Chad: And it, it's, it, it's, it's challenging because you're, you're coming in and you're trying to find gaps in a program that somebody's been putting years of blood, sweat, and tears in.
21:59
Chad: And I, I think one of the, one of the reasons, at least from the feedback we received, one of the reasons that ETHOS is, is so busy is because we've been on the other side of the table for many, many years.
22:13
Chad: I mean, I've, I'm the least experienced ethos consultant with 32, 33 years at least count now.
22:20
Chad: But, everybody else, 40 plus years of being on the other side of the table.
22:25
Chad: And so, you know, we.
22:28
Chad: We take a, a pragmatic approach to, looking at your programs and, and being able to call out, you know, you, you get some consultants and they know what the, the requirements are in an API code or standard, and they're like beating their fist and saying, this is what you gotta do when there's a, a huge issue somewhere else that, that they're not even looking at.
22:50
Chad: But because of the years of experience and being on the other side of the table, we take a pragmatic, approach and also provides solutions during the interviews when, when we do find opportunities for improvement or, or gaps.
23:04
Chad: And so I guess the, some of the most satisfying, things that I've experienced is getting calls back from clients after we leave and say, Hey, I'm, I really appreciate you telling me to look at this, particular line or this stack.
23:19
Chad: It was about to fall over and we went out there right after you left, and we looked at this and, and, and, and, you know, we, we found some significant issues.
23:28
Chad: So really, really appreciate, you, you guys pointing us in that direction.
23:32
Chad: To me, that's extremely satisfying.
23:34
Chad: I, at, at night, I tell myself that it, it happens more than what the calls that we receive.
23:41
Chad: I hope, people actually listen.
23:43
Chad: But, it.
23:44
Chad: That, that is part of the satisfaction or, of doing this.
23:48
Chad: And the, the other thing is, just engaging with industry and seeing how hard people are trying or working to do the right thing and to get it right.
23:58
Chad: And, seeing all the different creative ways of getting it right.
24:03
Chad: And that's what I love about my job is every week it's, it is a different office view of the week.
24:09
Chad: I'm engaging with different people, extremely bright, all trying to get to the right, result and, and working very hard to do that.
24:18
Chad: And so, I just, I, I, again, it sounds corny, but I just go into the API meetings, going to interview people at, at the sites and just totally impressed with the amount of effort and intelligence that goes into getting these programs.
24:34
Chad: Right.
24:35
Branden: Yeah.
24:36
Branden: what made you start off, picture of the week?
24:39
Branden: How did, how did that even happen?
24:41
Chad: I, like I said, I, I sucked at marketing.
24:44
Chad: I didn't have a website until COVID.
24:47
Chad: so I, what I started in 14 and just word of mouth.
24:51
Chad: You know, 2015 is when it really kicked off.
24:54
Chad: I started, uh, ethos in fall of 2014 and, 2015 is when it really kicked off.
24:59
Chad: And just fortunate enough that, clients were calling me and then they, they'd leave and go work for another organization, or they'd tell their buddy at another organization and then, you know, know more, more phone calls were coming in.
25:12
Chad: And, it just, it just, it just started growing and never really had to worry about marketing.
25:17
Chad: But I just, for those of you who, who know John Reynolds, you, you get occasional emails from him, on various different topics and he, that, that is his way of keeping people.
25:31
Chad: Oh, yeah.
25:31
Chad: John Reynolds, you know, he, he, he's still engaged and he, he's still out there, but it's just, it was my way of letting people know, one, we're busy, and two, I'm still alive and doing what I'm doing.
25:42
Chad: And it was just an easy way to do it that, um, you know, Hey, I'll just, I'll, I'll try to, and it really, it, it forced me to stop and smell the roses when I'm traveling.
25:54
Chad: It's so easy to get from hotel to job site, to restaurant to hotel and repeat the cycle.
26:00
Chad: But, you know, I, I try to find something unique in the area.
26:04
Chad: Sometimes it's not that impressive.
26:05
Chad: Sometimes I forget, sometimes I can't, take pictures and drive.
26:09
Chad: But, it.
26:10
Chad: It, it's, it, it forces me to, to stop and smell the roses.
26:14
Chad: But it also is an easy, quick way to market.
26:18
Chad: That ethos is out there.
26:19
Chad: We're doing stuff and, we're, we're busy.
26:23
Branden: Yeah.
26:23
Branden: Yeah.
26:24
Branden: I just got back from Houston yesterday and it's funny, when I was there, somebody was like, so what are, what are your plans for the night?
26:30
Branden: And I was like, I don't know.
26:32
Branden: Working here and then walking back to the hotel and probably having dinner there.
26:37
Branden: And they're like, you're in, you're in Houston.
26:39
Branden: Like the, the, the hub of culinary diversity.
26:42
Branden: Like what do you do?
26:44
Branden: You're gonna go eat chicken fingers at the hotel.
26:46
Chad: Yes, I am.
26:50
Branden: I am, that is exactly right.
26:53
Chad: Yeah.
26:54
Chad: It, my wife gives me a hard time about that all the time.
26:56
Chad: I mean, when, when I'm in Singapore or China, it's it's very difficult for me to break away.
27:03
Chad: 'cause you're exhausted after the, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm inherently an introvert and so in, in interacting and engaging with people, it, it, it drains my batteries.
27:13
Chad: And, it's, it's, it's very easy for me just to go back to the hotel room and, and, and order some food and, and, and work.
27:21
Chad: 'cause you, you're trying to keep, you're trying to keep up with what you're doing that week.
27:26
Chad: Plus you're planning for the week ahead, plus you're trying to get the report finalized from the week before.
27:32
Chad: And so it's, it's, it's.
27:34
Chad: It's busy, but when occasionally she will travel with me, she goes to the fun sites and, she will force me out and she'll, she'll do some recon during the day and find a good restaurant and she'll, she'll get me out there and, and let me see part of the world, that I wouldn't normally see if she wasn't traveling with me.
27:51
Branden: Yeah, that's good.
27:52
Chad: But I get you, man.
27:53
Chad: I, that's all I want to do is, you know, you know, wash, wear, rinse, repeat, you know, just, you just, you kind of get into that cycle.
28:02
Branden: Yeah.
28:03
Branden: so as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, What was the biggest surprise for you kind of getting going?
28:07
Chad: How much I hate, I shouldn't say hate.
28:10
Chad: I tell my kids not to use that term, how much I dislike the, the contract setups and the, you know, it feels like you're, you, you get to working with the procurement folks and it feels like you're buying a used car.
28:23
Chad: You know, it just, it just feels, slimy when they're trying to push you to assume all liability and, approve, you know, net 90 payment, net 90 day payments, and it, it becomes a, a used car purchase negotiation.
28:39
Chad: I, I.
28:41
Chad: If I could and I should hire somebody just to do that.
28:45
Chad: but, you know, most of my contracts are set up now, and, and so that, that part surprised me.
28:51
Chad: It was scary as hell, when I made this decision, to, to start this company because, my wife and I have a blended family.
28:59
Chad: We have five kids total.
29:01
Chad: And when I started this company, we were, very close to having all five of them in college at the same time.
29:10
Chad: And you're go, you're going from, you know, a guaranteed paycheck with benefits and, and all of that to, nothing.
29:19
Chad: If, you know, if, if, if you break your leg and you can't get on the plane, you're not getting preyed, you know?
29:24
Chad: And so that, that was terrifying.
29:27
Chad: But, looking back, you know, best decision I ever made if, being self-employed and, there's a lot of nights, weekends, blood, sweat, and tears.
29:38
Chad: But, it's, it's definitely, the juice is definitely worth the squeeze.
29:42
Branden: there's a lot of independent contractors.
29:44
Branden: There's a lot of small business owners.
29:45
Branden: There's a lot of, a lot of companies, a lot in, in our industry.
29:49
Branden: If somebody was looking to go do it themselves, what, what piece of advice would you give them?
29:54
Chad: Be honest, with yourself.
29:56
Chad: I deal with a lot of people that, independent contractors that, don't get the calls back.
30:02
Chad: And, if, if you're not getting, that feedback or, we want you back, we, you know, be honest with yourself and, and, and let, reality set in and say, maybe I need to learn some more before I say I'm qualified and competent.
30:16
Chad: That's, that's my first, bit of advice.
30:19
Chad: If, if you are, and, you're getting that, that feedback.
30:23
Chad: It's, it's a wild ride.
30:25
Chad: It's, but al always remember, never forget that you, these people are working very hard to develop these programs and, you know, you're just coming in for a day, a three day, five day or whatever the, however long the assessment is.
30:43
Chad: be respectful and, compassionate, empathetic and present it if, if, if you do find gaps or opportunities for improvement, present it in a respectable way.
30:54
Chad: And, if you don't know.
30:57
Chad: How to fix it.
30:58
Chad: You just found a gap, then you shouldn't be consulting.
31:01
Chad: 'cause you, you don't have enough experience to, to to know what good looks like.
31:05
Chad: You just know that you read something in a code book and they're not doing it.
31:09
Chad: so you, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be consulting.
31:13
Branden: It, it's, that's a good point.
31:15
Branden: So I used to coach, baseball.
31:16
Branden: I used to coach college baseball and, and we always used to say like, any coach can see the problem, it's the good coaches that can actually come up with the solution for that problem.
31:26
Chad: Yeah.
31:27
Chad: I, I agree.
31:28
Branden: If a guy's striking out all the time, like, okay, great, everybody can look at the scoreboard and see, or everybody can look at the scorebook and see, you know, this guy sucks right now.
31:36
Branden: but how do you get him out of that?
31:38
Branden: How do you get him out of that, that slump?
31:39
Branden: That's, that's the coach, that's the guy.
31:41
Branden: So yeah, anybody can spot problems, bring solutions.
31:45
Chad: yeah, and, and you know, I say, you know, the consulting is, is 50, 50, 50% knowledge, but also, 50%, ability to communicate effectively to the client and, and respectfully to, to the client.
31:59
Chad: And if you can't do that, if you come across as, you know, just some bitter, guy that some bitter divorce guy that you know is, is angry at the world, and so I'm just gonna scream at you, you're, you're not gonna be successful.
32:12
Chad: And so, you, you, you definitely gotta have the knowledge, but you also have to be able to communicate effectively and, and, Be empathetic because, it's, it's a, it's a challenge to get all of these things done in a mechanical integrity program.
32:27
Chad: And these people are spending their lives trying to, trying to hone in and, and get it right.
32:32
Chad: And here, you know, here we come in here, we come in for a couple of days and say, oh, this is all screwed up.
32:37
Chad: No, that's not how you're, that's not how you should present these things.
32:41
Branden: Yeah, yeah.
32:43
Greg: here's a question and it's around, asset performance management programs and systems that are in plants, and I'm sure you're familiar with some of those.
32:53
Greg: Chad, can you share with our listeners, What you're seeing as far as how effective people are being at using some of these other systems to, like for instance, here's a class example I like to use.
33:07
Greg: If you're using an enterprise asset management program where you have multiple sites, and let's say you have a failure at one of the sites are, let's say you have, just a really great reliability performance going at a site on a particular unit.
33:24
Greg: do you get engaged in looking in any of that kind of stuff?
33:28
Greg: Like for instance, okay, we had a failure on our unit here and let's say it's, let's say it's a hydro treater and it's near what the water mixing box that's coming in to dilute the chemicals and control things there.
33:40
Greg: and they have a failure there.
33:43
Greg: Do you see the, the industry sharing that knowledge, at least within its own organization, diligently are, is, is there still a lot of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing?
33:58
Greg: In other words, are you seeing the owner operators take advantage of those a PM systems to help them benchmark across an organization to improve?
34:06
Chad: I've seen the spectrum.
34:07
Chad: I've seen there are, a few organizations manage that very well.
34:12
Chad: They.
34:13
Chad: I don't know what Power BI is, but they use Power BI to extract,
34:18
Greg: Business
34:19
Chad: extract all of this data they have at, at a corporate level.
34:22
Chad: They have this elaborate dashboard.
34:24
Chad: It's real time, it's evergreen, and they're using that information, across the fleet of their, of their company.
34:32
Chad: I've seen that work very, very well.
34:35
Chad: there are other organizations that are, you know, we, we, we bought.
34:40
Chad: one refinery here.
34:41
Chad: We bought another one here.
34:42
Chad: We bought another one here.
34:43
Chad: And we're gonna cram this IDMS down everybody's throat.
34:48
Chad: And they're, some of the sites are reluctant'cause they don't wanna let go of their data, but it's being forced on'em by, by corporate management.
34:55
Chad: And the data gets transferred over, even though they were told it would be seamless.
34:58
Chad: It's all screwed up and they're just trying to go through and clean up all of that data so that they can have accurate information and then, have it bubble up to some sort of, a corporate level dashboard.
35:10
Chad: So I've seen the spectrum.
35:11
Chad: I know it can be done and I know it can be done effectively.
35:15
Chad: And the, the value add is incredible.
35:17
Chad: the lessons learned that are shared across the fleet from one site, and the, the data, each site can go in and look at the other site's data for, particular process areas, operating conditions, et cetera.
35:29
Chad: And, it's, it's just, that that sharing of information is really, really helping them.
35:34
Chad: And they're, they're loving it.
35:36
Chad: But, you know, on the other side of that coin, there's a, a lot of sites, a lot of companies that have a long way to go before they get there.
35:44
Greg: Yeah.
35:45
Greg: Yeah.
35:45
Branden: Wow.
35:46
Branden: I have not seen the instance where sites can see other sites data.
35:50
Branden: That's, I've, I've not, I've not, or maybe I just haven't asked, but I have not, I've, I haven't seen that.
35:55
Branden: That would be, that would be interesting.
35:57
Branden: 'cause everybody's so tight to hold onto their, their information.
36:01
Branden: Even, even within corporations.
36:04
Chad: Yeah.
36:05
Branden: Hmm.
36:06
Branden: That would be, that would be interesting.
36:07
Branden: And they're able to, they're able to see it and then they, they, they leverage it somehow.
36:11
Branden: Right.
36:12
Branden: To be able to, to understand.
36:15
Chad: Yeah.
36:15
Chad: You, you know, what, what kind of corrosion rates are you seeing in this circuit?
36:18
Chad: Let me go check.
36:19
Chad: And, you know, you can pull that out,
36:21
Greg: Yeah.
36:21
Greg: What's the material construction, what's the chemistry?
36:24
Greg: You know?
36:24
Greg: 'cause sometimes it can just be nuanced.
36:26
Greg: It can be the difference between a low carbon steel and a regular steel or, or, a certain type of maybe three 16 l maybe just three 16.
36:37
Greg: And you can go right there and see temperatures operating.
36:41
Chad: what are your, IOW parameters for this, this part of the process and, you know, what, what temperatures, what flows, what pressures are you running?
36:49
Chad: and,'cause you know, this is what we're seeing and you can access that information.
36:53
Branden: Hmm.
36:54
Branden: Okay.
36:54
Branden: I've, I've, I've heard of more people spinning up technical networks and having, you know, monthly, monthly calls or quarterly calls.
37:02
Branden: I've, I've heard more and more people doing that, and, and having conversations as opposed to actual having data.
37:07
Branden: So
37:08
Chad: Yeah.
37:09
Greg: and you can see that I, I use refining it as an example, like comparing performance across hydro treater units, and you can get as specific as you want to.
37:18
Greg: And, and you're right Chad, that's where a lot of this BI stuff comes in as well as a great tool.
37:24
Greg: but you can apply this, you know, let's just pick some, chemical industries.
37:29
Greg: Let's say I am, at an ethylene corporation and we operate, you know, 10 of the same types of crackers all around the world.
37:37
Greg: Wow.
37:39
Greg: Wow.
37:39
Greg: What are we learning from that?
37:41
Greg: You know, I just see a, and it's, and it's encouraging to hear that some people are doing that and they are getting much benefit from it.
37:50
Greg: And it doesn't surprise me that many aren't yet because they're probably having difficulty getting their heads around it, justifying it and doing it.
38:01
Chad: we're, majority are still in the, D-M-R-I-O-W development implementation stage.
38:08
Chad: and many have either, been forced to or chose to switch IDMs for one reason or another, and they're in the data quality cleanup stage, before you can actually rely on that data and extract it using Power bi.
38:23
Chad: And so, it, it's just gonna take time, but we're, we're heading in the right direction.
38:28
Greg: Okay, thanks Yvo.
38:29
Greg: You said something too that piqued my interest as the data cleanup stage.
38:35
Greg: do you see a lot of that going on in the industry right now?
38:38
Chad: Not enough.
38:39
Chad: the, uh, the, the companies that, you know, we, we, we gobble up another refinery or another couple of refineries and they were running one IDMS.
38:48
Chad: But our corporate standard is this, it's, it's a challenge.
38:52
Chad: It really is, and I get it.
38:55
Chad: The sites that they, they don't wanna let go what they had, because they are concerned that that data is gonna get screwed up.
39:02
Chad: And, it's, it's similar to those documented management systems, finding the time, allocating the time to go in and clean up.
39:11
Chad: Just, you know, if I'm an inspector and I've got, I'm responsible for four to six units, I gotta go through and, and, and evaluate, scrub all of that data while I do my day to day.
39:22
Chad: And so, you know, bringing in a short term, third party consultants that can at least flag those areas of concern and reduce that workload for the inspector that has to make that educated decision on whether the data's good or not is, is a value add.
39:38
Chad: But that's more money, that's more resources.
39:41
Chad: It wasn't, probably, wasn't a line item in, in the budget.
39:44
Chad: And so, it, it happens less often than it needs to,
39:47
Greg: What are you thinking about that, Brandon?
39:49
Greg: We're we're talking about that all the time, man.
39:52
Branden: I mean, we've, we've been, we've been contracted a couple times just to come in and, and literally clean up databases, whether it's, a post-merger acquisition and the, the, the migration wasn't all that great.
40:05
Branden: and even there was another, a couple other instances where it was just.
40:10
Branden: The plants were really old and they had a ton of thickness data and they just wanted to figure out, okay, we've got 400,000 CMLs, but why is it that 200,000 of them don't have any thickness readings?
40:24
Chad: Right, right,
40:25
Branden: Right?
40:25
Branden: Because'cause somebody put'em in there, they drew'em, but they just hadn't gotten to actually going and actually inspecting them.
40:30
Branden: So, you know, from a, from, from a top level, your BI level, we got 400,000 CMLs.
40:35
Branden: We got, we're doing great.
40:37
Branden: Well let's, let's start actually digging in and like figuring out, well how great are we?
40:43
Branden: And, and so Yeah.
40:44
Branden: I mean it's, yeah, data quality.
40:46
Branden: I, I, I kind of chuckled as you were saying it.
40:49
Branden: 'cause whenever I talk to folks about their databases, I, I always start with, well, you know, everybody thinks their database is great and I understand that.
40:57
Branden: And to a t everybody says, no, our database is terrible.
41:01
Branden: Our data's awful.
41:01
Branden: We know that.
41:02
Branden: But, but you run, like, I've ran into people where I've started out and so now you can't call somebody's baby ugly.
41:08
Branden: So I always start out like, if you think your database is great, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna shame you.
41:13
Branden: But, I think, a lot of people do know that their, their data's, in need of maybe a little bit of a cleanup.
41:19
Branden: Yeah.
41:19
Chad: Well, and it, it's a huge elephant to eat.
41:22
Chad: And you know, it's, you, you need to do it sooner than later.
41:27
Chad: Anybody that's listening that's in that position, you need to do it sooner or later than later.
41:31
Chad: You need to get some funding to bring in a third party resource or an outside resource or dedicate somebody, within your organization solely to that.
41:42
Chad: And then, uh, to get it cleaned up because it, it amazes me, how we're, we're so dependent on that data to make educated decisions of when to do the next inspection.
41:54
Chad: the other thing that amazes me is the, so sometimes I need use general terms here.
41:59
Chad: The lack of quality of the NDE technicians that are collecting that data and the, the lack of a vetting process for those NDE technicians to make sure that when they're out there collecting data, that data that they're giving you is quality data.
42:14
Chad: and so I always ask that question when I'm doing, an assessment is how, how are you vetting the individuals that are giving you the data that you are using to make.
42:25
Chad: Decisions on your next inspection, date and, strategy.
42:31
Chad: And, you know, some, I get not good answers more often than you would probably suspect.
42:38
Branden: Yeah.
42:39
Greg: I believe you.
42:40
Greg: I believe, I, I think it's, I I think one of the things maybe for people that are listening is that if you're considering doing something like that too, leverage everything that you do so that when you're there and you see other things, that really should it go on a punch list or at least somebody to be aware of, to have people that are doing it, that are knowledgeable enough that'll recognize those kinds of things.
43:07
Greg: And that way you'll get added benefit outta the process.
43:12
Chad: yeah,
43:13
Branden: you mentioned when you talk to folks and you ask questions, what's not, without giving out the secret sauce, what's one of your favorite questions to ask as part of any one of the audits that you do?
43:24
Branden: You walk in and you're like, man, or, what's one that you always make sure you ask?
43:29
Chad: well, I I, we typically start with, um, senior leadership.
43:34
Chad: And ask, you know, what obvious questions, what keeps you up at night?
43:37
Chad: What are you most proud of?
43:39
Chad: And, you know, we're, we're assessing not only where they are with their programs, but how engaged that senior leader is in their program.
43:48
Chad: and, and how in tune they are into what the, the status of special emphasis programs and, the resources that they have.
43:57
Chad: And to, to me, that's a, a telltale of, how well the mechanical integrity program owners is, are communicating with the rest of the, the site or the business.
44:09
Chad: And, so always lead off, you know, senior level.
44:13
Chad: And then we work our way down to supervisor, and then we, we dig in with the inspectors.
44:18
Chad: And when, when we're talking to the inspectors, that's, that's where the real meat is, obviously.
44:23
Chad: But those, those other layers we're, we're more assessing their engagement with, with the, the MI program.
44:31
Chad: And so that we, we typically start out with that, but we don't, I shouldn't say that.
44:35
Chad: I was gonna say, we don't use any of that information as, you know, to, to cite a, a, a finding or an OFI.
44:41
Chad: It's really, we, we wanna prove, through data and through interviews or lack of data, that this is where the gap is.
44:48
Chad: And you get those conversations with the, with the inspector, the boots on ground, individuals that are, that are, that are doing the day-to-day.
44:56
Chad: Now the, the senior leadership will.
44:58
Chad: Point us in some directions that we need to, we need to dig deeper in through those interviews.
45:03
Chad: But, you know, unless they say, well, you know, we don't have an IOW program.
45:08
Chad: I know it, it's on my list of things to do, then there's, there's really no use in having any other conversations with the inspectors on that.
45:16
Chad: But, you know, if they're like, oh yeah, everything's great, you know, we got this thing called, um, RIB or RBI, something like that.
45:23
Chad: I know the guys are really working hard at that.
45:25
Chad: When we get those kind of answers, we're like, okay, you know, you know, you're not really an element champion.
45:30
Chad: you just got this under you in the org chart and you're trusting the individuals that are actually doing the day-to-day, that they're, that they're doing a good job.
45:40
Branden: You, you, you speak about, that sounds like something from, from experience there, of an experience, or of a, of a conversation that you've had or what's one of the, without obviously naming any names, but what, are there any, are there any real, assessments?
45:56
Branden: or, Program reviews that you've done that really stand out for really good or really bad that you can talk about.
46:05
Chad: Oh, both.
46:06
Chad: Yeah.
46:06
Chad: I've, I've seen the best and I've seen some of the, some of the worst.
46:11
Chad: and you know, I've, I've been to places where.
46:15
Chad: We have said we're not comfortable like doing a 7 51 audit.
46:19
Chad: We're not comfortable going in your unit just based on what we're seeing, the quality of the PPE, the people walking out of the unit without wearing PPE, the, the smells, the, the, so, you know, seeing really bad.
46:31
Chad: And I just, I love going to industry leading sites'cause I'm gonna learn, I learned something new on every assessment audit job.
46:40
Chad: but I, I'm excited to see how they have, the, the, the programs they've built to, to, manage their MI programs.
46:49
Chad: yeah, but without giving any specifics, that's, I guess that's the best answer I can give.
46:55
Branden: All right.
46:56
Branden: my last question here, the, the, the listeners can't see this, because obviously they're listening, but behind you, you have an awesome workbench I've been staring at the whole time we've been talking here.
47:07
Branden: What can you tell me about this workbench that you have?
47:09
Chad: I'm a wannabe, woodworker and, have ambitions when life slows down a little bit to get really, really good at it.
47:17
Chad: But I'm, I'm a big fan of the, the old school workbenches that the, that the craftsmen using the hand tools are, that so big fan of that.
47:28
Chad: And, my wife is a.
47:30
Chad: She loves shopping for furniture, and she found this at a, at someplace, may have been round top Texas or something, and, said that's a, a perfect piece to lay out, large p and IDs, drawings, et cetera.
47:44
Chad: But as you can see, it's kind of filled up with memorabilia now.
47:47
Chad: But, I just like the old school wood woodworking, equipment and the, the, old school woodworking benches is essential for the, using those hand tools, the hand planes and, and everything that, you need to make the, the furniture the way it used to used to be made.
48:03
Branden: It is so much easier when, you use the right tool for the right job
48:07
Chad: Yeah,
48:08
Branden: a, a good work, a good workbench with the right vice or the right, the right, peg holes and, and locations for those.
48:13
Branden: It makes it so much easier.
48:15
Chad: yeah.
48:16
Chad: That's true in mechanical integrity programs too.
48:18
Chad: I've, uh, I've, I've been to sites where they have stainless steel insulated pipe and, they were using Spot two ut to look for CUI and I was like, that's not, that's not the right, that's not the right tool for the job there.
48:31
Chad: I don't think you're gonna find that cracking in the, uh, using that spot, ut, but yeah, it, it applies across the many, many programs
48:39
Greg: We've come a long way.
48:41
Chad: we have.
48:41
Greg: I remember when we used to take thickness readings on stainless steel pipe that wasn't corroding, and, and the real concern was chloride, stress cracking, but nobody was looking.
48:51
Chad: Absolutely.
48:52
Chad: Yeah.
48:52
Chad: Your, your job.
48:54
Chad: my job when I first started was to go out and take thickness readings based on of, probably the John Reynolds formula of, you know, how many linear feet and how many fittings.
49:02
Chad: And, we, we have come such a long way and just the short time that I've been in the industry.
49:08
Chad: and so it just, it makes me excited and I'm, and I'm, I'm just proud as can be to be part of, an industry that is working so hard to get it right.
49:17
Greg: And Chad, I notice there's some beautiful scenery out that window there over your shoulder.
49:23
Greg: that's, that's your place in the hill country that I see in the pictures once in a while.
49:27
Chad: it is.
49:28
Chad: I've, I've got some property now.
49:30
Chad: We're up to 15 cows, two donkeys and three rescue dogs, along with wild Turkey deer and all the, feral hogs.
49:39
Chad: You can, either watch or shoot, whatever you choose.
49:42
Chad: but yeah, that's another, uh, part of the retirement strategy is to eventually move out here full-time and, take care of my animals and, and enjoy my land.
49:53
Greg: Sounds like a plan.
49:55
Chad: Yes, sir.
49:56
Branden: Nice.
49:56
Greg: Well, I don't have anything else at this time myself, Brandon.
50:00
Branden: No, that's all I got.
50:01
Branden: Chad.
50:01
Branden: Anything else you wanna talk about that we missed?
50:04
Chad: I'm, I'm, like I said, I'm an introvert.
50:06
Chad: You guys have drained me.
50:07
Chad: this is the most, I've, I've probably talked in three weeks, but I really enjoyed the visit and, appreciate you guys taking the time to, to, to visit with me.
50:17
Branden: We, we appreciate you.
50:18
Branden: Yeah.
50:18
Branden: We a hundred percent appreciate you.
50:20
Greg: Yeah.
50:21
Greg: I've got more questions for you.
50:22
Greg: We just, I'll have to, that'll be another one.
50:25
Greg: yeah.
50:26
Greg: Thanks Chad.
50:27
Chad: All right, guys.
50:28
Greg: Appreciate you, man.
50:28
Branden: Yeah.
50:29
Branden: Thanks so much.
50:31
Branden: Thank you for listening to Upon Further Inspection, a Mechanical Integrity podcast.
50:35
Branden: This episode was co-created by Inspectioneering, and CorrSolutions.
50:40
Branden: Our producers are Nick Schmoyer, Jocelyn Christie and Jeremiah Wooten.
50:45
Branden: This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal or professional's advice.
50:52
Branden: Listeners should seek their own qualified advisors for guidance.
50:56
Branden: If you enjoyed this episode.
50:57
Branden: Please join us next time wherever you listen to your podcasts.
51:01
Branden: Until then, stay safe and stay informed.