Latest / WoT Spoilers / The Pattern Groans & Writings - Towers of Midnight chapters 4 & 5 - EP548

Transcript

The Pattern Groans & Writings - Towers of Midnight chapters 4 & 5 - EP548 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the wheel of time, spoilers, bloodcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Software.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: It's fun speaking of things that are so so much fun.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: We're doing some parent chapters today and then some Dollin chapters,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: so there is a bit of dessert at the end. Right,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: we do get Grendel Pov with Moridan and it's delicious.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, I'm glad there's some dark prophecies at the
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: bottom of this pudding cup because uh, oh boy. I
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: struggled with these notes. Man, I just wanted to punch
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: everyone in sight and that at least there's dark prophecies
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: to look forward to.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I did keep bouncing off these chapters. I kept finding
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: myself like poking around my email or getting up for
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: a snack, and I was like, wait, you got to
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: sit down and actually read these. So there's there's some
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: stuff in there, right, They're not completely devoid, and I've
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: got some interesting facts I think that you'll enjoy that
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: might make these a little more fun. But like, oh
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: my god, do we need to go like the parent
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: wolf not wolf stuff and a Gala discovering his moral
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: compass and Gollin and Igwaine are who rough, So we're
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: going to try and like I think I want to
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: get through these relatively quickly, considering is a lot of pages,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: and I don't think we have that much to say
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: about it until the grand Al Bob, and then I
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: think there's quite a bit to say.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a track cond boy experience today. The
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: princelings all right, we'll do it. We're gonna do it.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: We're gonna do it.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: So the chapter is called a Radia groans and the
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: pattern growns and that's simile. That's the breaking lace of ages,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: is what I'm assuming.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe we agreed on that last time it
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: came up. It's the age lace unraveling.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: And is it more unraveled than it was last time.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like that break goes like all the way
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: through it. That'd be cool, a little effect.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I have no idea if there's a series of breaking
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: pattern icons.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Probably not, but that would be cool if they did it. Yeah, yeah,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: So this is at the end of the last chapter.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: They said, hey, paren you gotta come take a look
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: at this, and so this is the thing that he's
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: going to go take a look at. And it turns
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: out to be, as far as I can tell, a
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: teleported blight village.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: It seems like, Yeah, my only other thought was Sharon,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: But the fact that the blight is emanating from it
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: does tend me towards thinking that it's the blight.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I like it sort of the the idea that, like,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: you know and I of the world who saw the blight,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: is this wilderness that nothing can live in. But there's
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: all the trolls and the bad guys and everybody's up there.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: So I feel Sanderson's trying to say, like there is
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: like places to live in the blight. There are things
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: in the blight that survive in that corruption and among
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: those dangers, because otherwise, how do you have all these
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: trolics and people who are gonna come flooding out of
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: the blight for my war?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it sets up the town for later exactly
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: the town can exist because it's not the first town
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: we've heard of.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, this is I think, you know, just
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: again a switching of locations. You have some of the
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: blight plopping down in the middle of gild On, right,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: and then because it's like an infectious disease, it does
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: spread from there.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: But then why does the village itself not look blighted?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: It's only blight next to it, but like it's like
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: the village itself doesn't seem affected.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: That was my only question about it, was just like,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: why is the village itself not corrupted if it's at
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: the center of a spot of corruption and it came
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: from the blight.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: But okay, alternate alternate theory, the village was transported from
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: somewhere innocent, but the act of transporting it caused the blight.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Right that this like dislocation caused the corruption and the
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: blight spreading out from it because it was the fact
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: of the transitioning of places, which is the breakdown of
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: the pattern, and the blight is obviously also an effect
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: of the breakdown of the pattern around show gool I
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's like antipodal from like the Land of Madmen
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: or something weird like that. And yeah, it's the transportation
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: is what's causing the blight, not the village. The village
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: is relatively innocent of any blight behaviors because we have
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: no idea where it came from. All we know is
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: it's too foreign to be recognizable.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Uh Shara is not a bad idea because this everything's
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: made out of like grassy logs. Right, that's bamboo. Oh
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: yeah right, and isn't isn't Shara supposed to be the
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: land where they have you know, a very Asian equivalent or.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they have silk. That's where silk comes from
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: and that makes it shine in terms of biomes.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Right, but yeah, so very much like if you have
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: the silk, you would also have the bamboo.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Well still it comes from mulberry bushes. But yeah, yeah.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Well just in terms of climate like this, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean it's clearly from Suwher for our way,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: so it could be Sharrah could be the London Madman.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: I kind of am leaning against Blake now now that
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: you've proposed this alternative hypothesis. It's more complicated, but I'd
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: like it better, So we'll keep it.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Ruins the fore chat the village. But that's fine. I
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: was gonna say it kind of kind of doesn't work
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: because the village feels like a very unique place. Right.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: There's the one villa they call the village because it's
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: the only one applied the town.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know, you're right, so many ways this
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: could go. I do think it's interesting that no people
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: got transported along with this, which makes me wonder if
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: there was a bunch of people that like woke up
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: one morning falling three feet out of their bed that
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: was no longer there, you know, just like wow, where'd
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: the house go? Like we're still here, but all of
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: our infrastructure just vanished, or you know, was it truly
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: a band or did they die in the INTRM or
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: get zapped into the finn world or something.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I imagine they woke up in a fields of very
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: odd plants to them.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Oh right, like the plants of this place got transported,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: and yeah, they were like, why are we in a
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: patch of a foreign continent? We can just walk out
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: of it? This makes no sense?
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it also you know, and when I think about that,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I can't help but thinking about the O Gear and
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: that maybe somehow the reason the O Gear are here
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: is because the Dark One started moving around patches, but
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: not just from different places in this world, but from
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: places in a different world. And that's how the O
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Gear ended up in rand Land. Like it is basically
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: this exact thing, except the people come along with it,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: and in this case O gear.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Right, and it's not inherently evil. When the Ogre do it.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Whereas the blight taint on this it seems to really
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: be indicative of some evil.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, who know, we know nothing about why the
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: o gear groves are where they are, but it seems
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: to be a miss a translated piece of land from
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: another word.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but through an agency like of technology of interdimensional
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: tree people rather than the devil. Right, right, I suppose,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, the ogre don't seem evil. They seem pretty
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: good aligned on the whole.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Well, but the village isn't evil either, But the fact
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: that it's transported.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Was right, Yeah, that's true. The town sorry, yeah, unresolved
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: things will never learn the answer to.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: We got this. Navarreen is said die wise one, sorry,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: channeling wise one. Just yeah. But she, as far as
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: I can tell, is just a normal one of the group. Right,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: She never stands out or does anything unique.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, her and Sayona are talking, but we've Yeah, there's
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: nothing super interesting about either of them. We know who
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Sayona is. Yeah, Navarren's standard issue wise one.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Yep, she's just not She's just below the power level
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: to open a gateway, right, she just can't do that
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: on her own. And she does help with the making
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: of mahalanaar.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, it's that wise one is said, I
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: pack of general good people that only mildly annoys parent.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: That's who we're dealing with here.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: And that's all happened till he goes to sleep.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. The barreling gives us the title of
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: the chapter, the pattern groans, you know, pointing out what's happening,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: and they all go.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Wow, and parents says, let's burn it all. Okay, time
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: to go to bed, which.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that was necessary,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: but why not. We love a good I feel like.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: The blight is something to burn, right if you have
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: a small package all, let us.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Seem pretty border landery, Yeah.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Just like and also just like, oh my god, like
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: you have if you had banana blight, you know, destroying
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: your cavendish bananas, maybe you should like burn it all
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: down to try and prevent the spread.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Right, sure, So yeah, he wields fire offensively, and then
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: we don't pov switch, but time jump with a gap
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: between paragraphs, and yeah, then we go to sleep with
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: him until I run red as.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: He's reading a copy of the Travels of Jane forest Rider.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: As he goes to bed, parents doing recreational reading for
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: one time.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Who books the only time? Right? Yeah? Usually he just
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: like I would have I would have liked to see
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: more of him, like meditating or something like that, right,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: because it was just like remember when he like he
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: went into the inn and sat there and thought for
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: a long time, for like hours and hours and hours,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: and then stood up and left and realized he hadn't
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: left a trace more of that, parent.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, paren reading just feels a little bit out of character.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Parent doesn't read, parent thinks parent, Bruce.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't read, not in the way like
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: he reads more than the way Matt reads exactly exactly.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: He read a book once. This is the once.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: So we're in the world of dreams. The sky is stormy,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: but a little more violent, and that that discrepancy becomes
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: more and more pronounced over time.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's interesting that the storm is stronger here. Normally,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the waking world is the real world and the dream
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: world is a reflection. But it seems like in this
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: particular instance, because of the interdimensional nature of Rand and
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: his cosmic straws with himself, the dream world is actually
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: the most real and the quote unquote real world is
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: an echo of what's happening at that more like metaphysical
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: center world of Telerondriod.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Also with my somewhat vague theory that Telerondriod is a
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: border between dark One's prison and the real world. Right like,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: as he's breaking free, he's stirring it up more because
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: he's the disturbance is coming from that direction rather than
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: from our world.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, yeah, you're closer to the point of contact.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: M So he hangs out with a bunch of wolf spirits,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: some which you're alive, some which you're dead.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Hopper shows up, one of which is human. Technically the
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Boundless shows up here. This is the first instance of
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: him hanging out with the pack that includes Boundless, who
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: is no and yeah. They're like, hey, you want to
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: come play and run and do dream wolf things, and
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: parents spends an inordinate number of pages saying no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: And then he goes way too hard into an overcross,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: too much into being a wolf and almost like actually
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Perma kills the Elk and.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they do say. He sets up a couple
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: of places that he's gonna get some reveal about Gnome
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Moraine had told Paren there was nothing human left and gno, okay,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: well is Moraine wrong?
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Oh and by coincidence, we're right near where that happened exactly,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: what a strange coincidence? Yeah, no, we're boundless and Gnome
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: get mentioned on the same page, and then oh there
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: are no coincidences with Tavera and.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, yeah, very clearly he's setting up what
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: I this I would call this is a fairly major
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: retcon and changing the whole like what Gnome is. I
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: don't because I.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Don't think such an eye of the world as Yeah,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: his original Gnome is such an Eye of the world
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: flavored thing, but I.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Don't think in back when he was written, he was
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: written to be. He was written to be a genuine
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: fear that Paren could end up like that.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this to me does feel like one of
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: the biggest, most expansive, load bearing retcons.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Right right, right, because it just sort of changes parents
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: whole journey as a wolf is be like, oh, no,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: you were just seeing it wrong, right, not that you
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: had to really overcome this problem that you were dealing
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: with the whole time. You know, you have the solution
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: the whole time.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very you were wearing the shoes that would
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: take you home the whole time, and you didn't have
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: to murder the witch. Totally sort of situation.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Totally, that's kind of how it feels to me, which,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: when set upright, can be good.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I don't totally hate it, but yeah, I
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: hate a little bit of it. I hate it a
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: little bit, but I don't hate it entirely.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What I really hate about it is the way
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: it changes gnomes. I think uncle who's taking care of him,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: from someone who was taking care of somebody who was
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: clearly not of the right mind, to an abuser who
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: drove him to it.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Oh we went. We had this discussion a while back
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: where I defended I don't think that it was his
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: brother Simmey and who was the abuser. I think it
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: was their father who was the abuser. And then Simeon
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: did what he could and got blamed for things he
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: did not do. We had this whole debate a while back.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it just and on the one hand, again,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I have the world is so like reck is necessary
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: for all eye of the world.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Is it's on level?
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, And I don't I don't hate this being
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: his resolution even being like, hey, this person you met
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: before has a clue for you that like you have
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: to mature and like come back around, Like I don't
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: hate that, but yeah, the part where a paren lives
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: in fear of an ironclad truth given to him by
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: an eye to die and then it was all just
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: a red herring is like.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we understand marine can be wrong, Like
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: she wasn't right about everything that she told them because
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: it's just what she believed. So and you have to
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: take the difference between I said I cannot lie and
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: I said I only tells the truth. You know. I
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: saw a great skit where a teacher was trying to
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: catch his class at cheating and he's like, no matter
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: what question I asked, you seem to have the answer.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: And then he starts asking them things like what are
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: the lot of numbers? And they know, what should I
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: do with my life? You know, how do I feel?
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: But they always have the answer because they're quote unquote cheating,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: but they're cheating reality, right, So yeah, that's the difference
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: between you know, and I said I who would always
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: tell the truth, she'd be able to cheat reality by
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Oh well, if I can't lie, I can I can
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: you know? And I said, I couldn't predict lotto numbers right,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: And in this, in this that there's an overhead god
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: who will always make sure they can't lie. If they
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: say the wrong lotto numbers, they can't speak. So you
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: just go through until that they get the right lot
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: of numbers. You can write them out and you can
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: win the lotto. Right, But that's not how it works.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I literally yesterday was recording an episode of Autistic Stuff
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: for Autistic People where we were talking about this myth
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: exactly with the autistic community of like, oh, autistic people
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: can't lie, or the parallel one like autistic people have
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: a strong sense of justice, And it's like, are you
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: saying that that we just inherently know the morality of
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: things like a litheometer. No, like that's not that's not
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: actually what's what's happening. Oh, people in chat are not
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: hearing this. Yeah, No, this is a real, real thing.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Like all tested people are just so honest, they're so
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: blunt they can't lie. Like this is a major myth
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: and it's completely false obviously because I tested people super
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: can lie. But it's the same logic of just like
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: so if we follow this logic to it's extreme. This
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: means that I can tell you ultimate truths about physics
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: because you can just ask me stuff and I can't.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: I know the truth or like in any given morally
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: confusing situation, I'm gonna know the right answer. I have
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: such a strong sense of justice, I'll always do the
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: right thing, like a lot of autisted people don't do
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: the right thing. So it's the same kind of thing
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: here where it's like can't lie and knows the truth.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Not synonyms, No, not synonyms at all. And I don't
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: mind Maureen being wrong. I just wish that her wrongness
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: hadn't been parens like number one motivating factor for books
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: and books and books and books and books, right, Like,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: that's what's frustrating is that this is entirely nonsense and
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: it has been his soul motivating fear.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: I think I have to get meta here and be like,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: it's so frustrating because to us it feels like that
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: was a struggle he had to overcome, and instead of
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: him overcoming it, it's like, oh, no, that wasn't even
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: a problem in the first place.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Exactly, I want him to overcome, not learn that he
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: was in a tizzy about a figment of his imagination
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: that that's not the overcoming I want him right, and.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Just from a story beat, like it just doesn't feel good.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: And I think there's a couple of good lines in here,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: you know, paren being like I can't ignore my problems
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and Hopper being like you do all the time. Oh god,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: oh my god.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: That just Hopper just savage him, left him bleeding off
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: the floor. It's so funny. I can't ignore my problems.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Then explain to me all of your past behavior. Mm hmm,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Like here's the receipts of what you look and he
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: like shows in the picture, like, yeah, this is how
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: you looked, basically like gnome like you became the thing
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you're so afraid of, just so you know, like that's
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: within you, regardless of your wolfe engagement.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: And then there's there's also this reference to these three
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: chunks of metal he forged in his earlier dream. They
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: sort of pop up and then disappear again. I think
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: we're building up the Mahalinar honestly, Like I think he
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: like he knows he needs to forge Molinar, and he
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: does make it out of three pieces, right, the head,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: the shaft, and the piece that joins them.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, no, that makes sense.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: And these are three pieces of metal, one of the
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: and they like they kind of the rod which is
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: the handle, the thin rectangle, and the large lump. Right.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: The large lump is the two fists, that's the head,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the rectangle is the part that he wraps around the
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: shaft to join them together, and the shaft is the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: flattened rod. It has to be, like, I can't think
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: of anything else that would.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was trying to be like, is this some
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: sort of like, you know, land fear trying to get
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: in there? Like is this her like attempting to get
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: into his dream? But yeah, no, it the way that
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: he builds ma all in your Later does feel like
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: it builds logically from this little snap of a vision.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: It's not even a proper vision. He has proper visions.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: This is like the barest whiff of a premonition.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: It's almost he's ruminating on it. It's like he knows
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: he needs to build it, and he's kind of thinking
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: about it, but he's not really sure how or what
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: he needs at this point. But he's like, my hammer's
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: not good enough. I need something more powerful to fight
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: these trolocks.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I have often feel like that about projects like that,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: I can there's a subconscious part of me that's just
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: like working on like, well, there's something that's off, and
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: eventually it's going to be worth bringing to my conscious
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: mind's attention and then I can start to do something
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: For me, it's the area between when I know I
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: have to do something, and I do a bunch of
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: reading and research and YouTube videos, and then I usually
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: take a break and then I can come or I
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: might work on it for a little while and be
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: frustrated right and not be able to get much done,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And then I take a break and I know that
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: my brain is ruminating on it and thinking about it,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: and I may have some ideas, and often I come
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: back to it and I'm like, oh yeah, boom boom
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: boom boom boom, you say you know, and you're like,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I'm done.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Absolutely being able to come back to a project
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: after a week or two and be like, aha, there,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: all of the dust has settled in the workspace of
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: learning this stuff and now I can do it and
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: it makes sense and yeah. So I totally empathize with
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: parent in that regard.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: And so then we have Parent's visions, which even in
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the book, they're like, yeah, he'd almost forgotten, he'd almost
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: begun to think they would stop coming.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I like that. Men of mine like Sanderson being like, yeah,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I remember those really cool visions in this Guy that we
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: thought were never coming back. They're coming back because I
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: thought those were cool too.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: And we can say, oh, you know, Parent has been
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: avoiding the Wolf's Dream. He's been shutting himself out of there.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: He's been obsessed with Fayeel. We can also say it
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: hasn't really been that long without the Wolf dreams. We
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: just again, just because of the way time passes. It's
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: been a lot of books, but not that much actual time.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: And most of that time he's been obsessed with finding Fayelle,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: not sleeping well, definitely not entering the Wolf's Dream.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and every time he touches the Wolf Dream he
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: shies away from it.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: So the first one I'm gonna read, Yeah, we didn't
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: do a read in in this That's how much we
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: were just like, fuck, it's good reading.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I looked at it and I was like, oh, if
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: you want to just blaze basket, I'm not going to
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: point anything out.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna read the prophecies, because that's I
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: think the best we got. Matt stood there. He was
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: fighting against himself, a dozen different men wearing his face,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: all dressed in different types of clothing. Matt spun his
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: spear and never saw the shadowy figure creeping behind him
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: bearing a bloody knife. Matt parent cried, but he knew
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: it was meaningless. This thing he was seeing. It was
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: some kind of dream or vision of the future.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: This is the one I get the least, because we
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: already had the mirror bubble of vivil with Random book
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: three four. So I'm confused about Matt fighting against himself
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: because he's fighting the Golom. His memories aren't the problem.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: He's not fighting himself. He's dressed men who kind of
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: look like him. So I think it's honestly him fighting
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: and getting stabbed in the last battle right by Fain
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: seeking out behind him, right the shadowy figure who stabs him. Okay,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: because doesn't he get cut and then he falls down
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: and then he pretends like we're just not seeing him
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: get back up.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: I just don't see the dozen different men all wearing
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: his face. I just I'm not connecting that to any
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: that's not a Faine thing. Yeah, I don't know that
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: one confuses me, but I do agree that the shadowy
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: figure with the knife has got to be Fain because
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: of how that all ends. Right, the knife isn't described
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: as being ruby hilted, but it is bloody, so I'm
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: gonna go with it.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: The goal certainly fits as well, you know, if you
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: want to try and make an argument for that. But
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: I don't see the again, who are these people who
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: are wearing his masks?
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the part where I'm just like, that's the
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: allegory has lost me on that one. Whatever's going on there,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I'm not following the thread. But there are multiple shadowy
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: figures coming at him with knives, so you know that
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: all works.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, if you have a better something that fits better,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: or some some take on that that works better, I'd
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: love to hear it, because it's one of those those
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: visions that's vague enough that it could apply to a
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: lot of situations, and so it's hard to really nail
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: it down to one particular one. You know. It's like
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: saying Lord Dragon has threats in the shadows, and it's like, well, yeah, yeah.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: If Matt was struggling with his memories. If he was
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: really struggling to hold on to himself through his memories,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I would get it. If the Golomb could do like
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: face changing, I would get it. But neither of those
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: things are really true, so I'm confused. Or if Matt
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: was dealing with like a lot of assassins who weren't
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: just the Golomb over and over and over again, you know,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: but like he's not really.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: The only thing can think of is those people are
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: warriors like him, so they're wearing his face, right, But
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: that doesn't that's such a stretch.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: There are no warriors like him. He's a singular kind
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: of warrior. It's just that I don't enough. Or it's
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: foreshadowing his time at the Shan Jhen Royal Court. I
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: mean maybe maybe fourth age Sean Chan Shenanigan's I don't know.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: He turned away and another darkness opened in the sky.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: He saw sheep suddenly running in a flock toward the woods,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: wolves chasing them, and a terrible beast waited in the
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: woods unseen. He was there in that dream, he sensed,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: But who was he chasing? And why something looked wrong
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: with those wolves? A third darkness to the side. Fayl
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Grady Elias gall All walked towards a cliff, followed by
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: thousands of others.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that you blended those two because they feel
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: like the same one.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: It is the same one, right, It's.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Two different pieces of the same situation. Right.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: The flock is the children of the light and they're
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: being chased by the trolks. But also you have the
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: foreshadowing of all the people who are you're following. There's
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: then once you clear them out, there's like this trap,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: right that you could fall into. Well, now I'm giving
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: back a part of the trap, but whack cloaks are well,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: the white cloaks are a distraction from the trap, right, like.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Part of the trap. They're the treat dangling under the
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: box in the claws. But yeah, something wrong with the sheep.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I do think has got to be the white cloaks
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: because parents, he's focused on the white cloaks, right, Like
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: that's what allows him to be herded m because he
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: assumes because there's sheep, he assumes that means he's the
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: one chasing them because he's a wolf. Right, But it's
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: like no, no, no, no, no, you are being chased by
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the sheep.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Actually right, and something looked wrong with the wolves because
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: these aren't wolves like he's. These aren't his wolves. These
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: are the trolks. These are this is more of it
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: an analog for.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, the sheep don't look wrong, the wolves look wrong. Yeah,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: either way, the thing that looks wrong is the white cloaks.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: And it's not him He's Oh you think, I think so,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: because that's the threat that is driving him to make choices,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: is the white cloaks.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I see. I think this is the foreshadowing the Grendl's trap,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: especially since we get the Grandal POV at the end
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: of these two.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but isn't the white cloaks being in the way
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: part of Grandal's trap?
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: No, not at all. It's totally a distraction. They fuck
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: it up, right, Like she only pulls the trap on
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: them after the trap completely fails on parent.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: So the white cloaks being in the way wasn't her No.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I thought that that they were directed into the white
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Cloak's path. I thought we talked about that like an
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: episode ago.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: No, into the trap, right into the path of the trap.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Because the trap is the portal stone. The trap is
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: the portal stone where you can get a bunch of
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: and so she's diverting Paren's group up into that area.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: And I think, and later he goes through his logic
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: where he's like, we were supposed to fall into the trap.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: It was only they were waiting for the White Cloaks
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: to move off so they could come after me. Like
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that's the whole thing that he talks about.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: So Galade is almost like Teverein by proxy here by
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: getting the way Galat is almost taverning with the White
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Cloaks pose.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Being pulled on by Parent, right, He's he's.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Being pulled always that the White Cloaks were part of
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Grandall's plot to like get Parent in just the right
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: position to get smashed by the by the trollocks.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I know. This is the whole logic back to why
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: is Parent involved in the White Cloaks in the first place.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: He needs to recruit them, he needs them on his side,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: he needs to convert them.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: But she does have buyr as an asset.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yes he's pison yeah, no, not wrong about that. He
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: is the poison package that she plants in the white Cloaks.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: But she didn't put them in the way. She just
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: happened to have buyar And yeah.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: So the white cloaks are a good thing.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, but you're trying to tell that's what I'm trying
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: to tell you for Parent. For Parent, the white cloaks
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: are actually there. Them being there, them getting in the
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: way of the trap, prevents the trap from being sprung,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: gives them, gives him the time to figure it out
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to then save the white cloaks, which then recruit the
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: white cloaks to his side. Right, that is the taverin
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: giving him the white cloaks as troops for the last battle.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: See here. I always thought it was grandall had two
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: different adversarial forces pointed at Parent, so that way the
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: one could you know, the human force could get wiped out,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: taking it a bunch of Parent, and then the trolks
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: could come clean up, and then she would have taken
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: so many swords out of the last battle. That was
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: what my brain went.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, don't get me wrong, Like I'm sure she
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: was encouraging, like once the two groups were there, she
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: was hoping they would fight, right, Like, I'm sure she
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: was doing things.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: That was the point.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: I don't think it is. I don't think it is
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: all I don't, and I don't think she did anything
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: to influence their travel there.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, now that you're laying that out and making
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: me think about it consciously, I'm like, yeah, that does
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: make way more sense. It's just totally blowing apart my
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: interpretation of what was happening here. Oh subconscious, why are
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: you like this?
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Gallad's choice to go to and or right wasn't influenced
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: by any It was like, oh, yeah, that's where I'm
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: going to go to, Like that's just the path they
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: were on.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Because that's that was entirely a hymn. It was a
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: very logical decision for him. He's like, I have property
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: there and people who won't throw me out, so I'm
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: going there. Oh wow. So it's just so hard for
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: me to imagine white cloaks being like sand in the
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: gears of the bad guys. So when are you accidentally
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: being helpful? That's not since became in charge.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: That Listen, even the most broken wrench, when thrown into
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the gears, will still stop the machine.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: You know, It's true. It's true. Sometimes you just need
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: literally anything. Okay, all right, today I.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Learned and then like we had this whole thing where
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: he's like, has to relearn how to teleport quickly from
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: place to place, even though we've seen him doing that
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: a million times. We have to figure out how to
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: run like a wolf again, even though we've seen him
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: doing that before.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it has more to do with
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: he's never tried to hold himself back so hard. He's
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: trying to have all the attributes without going wolfie, and
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: it's like, you can't walk unless you move your legs.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: That's not gonna work. You're gonna need to do the
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: wolfy thing. Just yeah, it's it's really annoying to see
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: him retreading it. Like I get it in the sense
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: that he's like, oh no, this thing that I want
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: is actually bad for me, so now I have to
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: make it complicated. But it's also just like, it's so
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: evident it's not bad for you. It's so evident it's
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: not bad for you.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Is this the first time that paren goes to kill
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: a stag and is stopped by Hopper or is this
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the second time? Because I thought there was another time
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: where he was hunting and had to stop him. Didn't
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: that happen once before?
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: There was another time where he tried to take the
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: lead of the pack, and he wasn't supposed to take
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: the lead of the pack, I think, because yet it
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: was a lot earlier. He does not behave like a
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: junior wolf. He tries to take over the alpha position
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: and he gets snapped at for that. This time they
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: give him the leader position in the chase, and he
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: has to be held back from killing the stag too much.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But yes, I do believe this happened before, and he
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: gets barked at for usurping the wolf hierarchy because.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: I think he attacks Hopper in that moment.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: He attacks Hopper both times. That's kind of his go
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: to reaction to all of Hopper's lessons is to attack him.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: So again, this is where I kind of look at
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: this and go like, it feels like you're just restating
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: a scene we've already seen.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, rehashing it and hoping we won't notice the
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: barely obscured serial numbers from last time Jordan did this.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: You know, if it dies here, it dies the last
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: death this hunt is done, young Bull, which is foreshadowing,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: you know, the fact that Hopper will die here. Right,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: That's sort of the whole point. Is he trying to say,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: like when something dies here die yeah.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And just Paren just spends so much time
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: being reluctant and getting teased by the wolves and being
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: obstinate and being teased by the wolves, and we don't
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: have to go through it lane by line. We just don't.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Aside from that one line from Hopper that was so
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: funny that we pointed out earlier, oh yeah, and then
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Hopper points out like you say you're afraid, but you're
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: you're you're objectively not afraid. Again, Like Paren is just
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: so and it's like part of my unmasking journey these
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: past couple of years has been like if it feels good,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: investigate it and find what makes it feel good. Paren
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: is doing the absolute opposite here. He's like, oh, this
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: feels really good. I should shut it down so hard,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Like this feels like a complete wholeness of my being.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I feel alive, I feel balanced. I had better never
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: do that again. I gotta cut that part out of me.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: He wants to bottomize himself. Essentially, It's like I need
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: to reject the wolf. It's part of who you are
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: and you feel the wholeness and that somehow is a
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: bad thing. Like I just I find that so frustrating
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: as someone who's trying to learn how to like seek
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: out the wholeness in my.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Life to live in the now, right, And something the
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: wolves do very easily that the parent struggles with because
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: he's a warrior. He's a constant warrior. And I think
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: that's almost like there's the balance, right, It's like you
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: have this constant ory going on, but that means that
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: sometimes you have to like give it up and just
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: live in the moment. And that's I think one of
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: the reasons he's having such a hard time, you know.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: And we talk about this from a more of a
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: mental health situation, right, like ignore the wolf part of it.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: This idea that like you are constantly full of worry
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: and you need to put that down and live in
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: the moment. That's not a terrible message to carry through
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: from parents POV.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Hopper's really right that like it's a
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: thing of men to worry about the future and to
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: get lost in the future. And it's like, yeah, the
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: past and the future are not things you can control.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: You can you can be here now, that's it. And yeah,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: paren is defined by worrying about the future. That's kind
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: of where he puts all of his energy hoppers like,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: maybe don't Yeah, that's a good lesson for all of us.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: If you worry constantly, maybe try running after a deer
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine why I ampathize with paren.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: No, he doesn't seem anything like you. So Gallad all right,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: The actual POV switch over to Gallad and we're in
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: the White Cloak camp, looking around White Cloak things and
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: locating ourselves on the Johanna Road and running into his
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: parents baggage train, you know, setting up the meeting. And
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: I think the most interesting thing about this opening part
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: is what he did with the questioners. He's got like
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: the camp layout right, and it's a very specific layout,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: and there's a hole because he ordered the questioners to
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: like inter into all the other units. And he's like, yeah,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: we have to rearrange the camp in order to fix that.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: And I think it's a really good call because he's like, oh,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: maybe the police should live in the communities that they're patrolling,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: so that way they feel connected to the people that
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: they are serving.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: This is more about spreading the troublemakers out in the
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: classroom so they're not all clustered together. Helping each other.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Well, i'll call them a little call a lot is
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: a fair and idealistic and pragmatic persons. He contains multitudes.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: We are learning and then there's a line here that
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of parent. Gareth Brindan once said,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: most of the time at General's most important function was
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: not to make decisions, but to remind men that someone
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: would make decisions. And I think that that's so much
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: of like when people are coming up to parent and
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: asking him things and he's like, why you already know
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the answer, why are you asking me? And they're like,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: we just want to make sure it's done right or
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: the way you want it, and like that's what. It's
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: not so much that he's making these decisions so much
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: is like he has made the decision, he's put his
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: stamp on it, and therefore that's the way we're going forward, right.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know that the decisions have all been
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: run through the same filter right across an organization. You're like, well,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: the guy at the top did sign off on this,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: so I can trust the interoperability of different pieces of this.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: And I'm not pulling against somebody else who's trying to
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: pull in a different way, because that's that I find
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: very frustrating at bigger organizations is when you're working really
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: hard on something and someone else is working on the
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: opposite and like like, well, which of these should be
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: we be doing, you know, and it's like when no
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: one's made the decision yet, so both but yeah, that's
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: a problem.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, having a clear and coherent chain of custody on
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: decision making is important for organizational cohesion because.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Again, otherwise you have chaos where everyone's trying to do
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: something different, or just uncertainty where you don't know what
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: direction everyone should be pulling.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Again, this is proof that Galad and paren need to
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: like sit down and talk shop about leadership. This is like, ah,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: you guys need to talk parent. You need to learn
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: a few things from Galat about why leadership is the
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: way it is.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: And so Gold's writing a letter basically to the children
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: who are under the purview of the shan Chan, basically
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: saying come back, you know, baby, come back.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, saying you know, disobey the violent masters you're currently
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: serving under who are reading over your shoulder, defy them,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: and come back to our little renegade group.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Kay.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Thanks Baye of.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Twenty thousand soldiers who aren't that well trained and have
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: no channelers.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just just dessert the current violent overlords. You've sworn
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: an oath to obey real quick, Okay? Cool? And you
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: know his cohort is like, that's a really dumb letter descent.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: He's like, yes, but it's the right thing to do
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: because I'm lawful, good And.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Then they argue, hey, did we hear correct? You want
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: us to work with these Isidi witches And he's like,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: there might be evil, but they're less evil than the
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: dark One. Everyone else around him's kind of like.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, I think it's so interesting how he has
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: actually gone towards the White Cloaks in terms of thinking
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: that the Isidi might not be all good. M h,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: it's what what is it? Once he might have denied that,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: but listening to the other children and considering what those
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: at Tarvon had done to his sister, it was making
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: him think he might be too soft on the isidie.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: And I'm just like, dude, you were doing so good.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: I was having so much respect for you and your
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: growth arc And then you're like, well, these crazy conspiracy
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: theorists have one good question about how our government operates,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: so I guess they must be right about everything, just
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: like ah.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Also, he's not the one who's ever concerned with how
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: they were treating his sister. That's always been gotwe Gollad
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: is never like what is he doesn't know?
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: He backed to got one up on that. That was it.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: I I find that slide of his interesting and frustrating,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: but it's interesting, like his growth is not entirely linear,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: which is correct to reality. Growth is not linear. People
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: make really weird choices even as they're moving in the
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: right direction overall.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: And it's very hard to hang out with a bunch
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: of cops and lead a bunch of cops without taking
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: on some of their attitudes towards minorities.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly like it's And he had one bad
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: experience that one time, so you know, maybe all of
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: their ranting and raving actually is pointing at the real reality,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: right right, But you know, he's still being practical, and
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, even if they are evil, even if
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: this conspiracy theory is true, still doesn't matter in the
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: face of the larger scheme of things, which is you know,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: he's being weird, but he's also being practical while he's weird,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: so okay, and.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: So then Galad dispenses a bunch of wisdom from Queen
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Morgasee by first saying, my mommy says, and then which
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I know how my mother regarded the children, right, And
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: so he's like, they're paying the ass. Basically, they're they're fanatics.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: There's no there's no point in dealing with them, and
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: we can't keep being fanatics questioners, And I think this
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: should have to everybody, all of the white Cloaks, but
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: the question is especially often could not tell the difference
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: between a hard and dark friend, a person who's being
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: influenced by a dark friend, and a person who simply
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: disagreed with the children.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: It's a really astute observation of the whole org not
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: just the questioners, right.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that's where he's trying to bring a
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: little bit of nuance. But at the same time, his
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: mission still has to take on dark friends, you know,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: and like he still has a little bit of that
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: white cloak belief that anybody could be a dark friend.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: It's a worldview that's very dark and paranoid. Everyone is
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: a potential dark friend. Any given person could be out
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: to get you, Like this is a kind of paranoia
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: that feels a lot of conspiracy minded brain worms, Like
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: it's have more hope in humanity than to assume that
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: everyone is probably a dark friend who's going to knife
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: you in the back at the first opportunity. Like that's
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: not actually most people, And that is the fundamental world
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: view of the White Cloaks is that everyone's a dark
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: friend until proven innocent, and dark friends are people who
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: will just violently murder you for no reason.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Like it's so simple, and I feel like God, it's
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: trying to set the White Cloaks up to be what
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: the Iel later become, which is this police force that's
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: respected among all nations, who knows what's right and can
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: go in and moderate disagreements and crimes inside of different countries.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Like that's what his vision of what he wants the
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: White Cloaks to be is, right, He's like, think of
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: what we could achieve inside of nation's boundaries if we
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: could act without needing an entire legion to imitate that
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: nation's ruler. Right, So he's thinking about operating as a
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: lawful entity inside of the countries, not using military force,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: but using the strength of being right.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but also with this underlying assumption that like, well,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: we have the right to force them to obey if
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: they won't obey otherwise, like obviously we would like we
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: have the right to go in and do that if
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: we have to, but I'd rather not because it doesn't
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: look good. And it's like cop brain, that's cop brain.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, you're right, he is identifying a
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: need in the world some kind of unifying police force
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: that nations can rely on to be a third party
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: arbiter who's neutral. Is a need that this world has.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Someone with a military force can easily look at this
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: world and see that that's a hole that someone could fill,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: And yeah, kind of does foreshadow the ideal thing later.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: I'm skeptical of the whole concept, but I can see
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: where the characters are coming from.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: So in comes by our Yeah.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, incomes cadaverous.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: By our compelled by our completely annoying by our which
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: I get why, Like it feels like because by ar
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: took these people prisoner who you know, ends up being
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: babasil Gill and the whole troop that supported the army.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Right, and you kind of look at and go, oh,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: charle Byr is under the influence of compulsion, and he's
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: the one who brings them in. He must be part
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: of the trap. But I think it's just him being
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: over zealous and him being thinking anybody who will put again,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: anyone who disagrees with the children must be a dark friend.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: And these people are clearly lying right like this. It's
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: a very legit suspicion, right, They're like, we're merchants, and
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: it's like, no, you're not, Like you're very clearly not.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: You're can't faultowers. So where's your where's your army? Yeah? Yeah?
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: And for once, Brandon Sanderson is conserving characters and making
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: sure to not invent someone new when there's a perfectly
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: good character with backstory already established. For once, he's doing that.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: I like that Bayer is the one doing this just
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: messenger boys stuff, because he's been around for a long
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: time and it would be nice to continue to see
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: him before his untimely demise.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Uh. I want to ask about this line. There was
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: these sort of talking about rumors as he walks away
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: and says there was talk of a gigantic stone from
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the sky having struck the earth far to the north.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: And and Or destroying an entire city and leaving a crater.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: I know, like, what what I have.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: To assume it's just shot our logoth. I think it's
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: just shot ow of logoth, right, because where else there's
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: a crater in the ground? Yeah, city know what?
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: I completely agree. I was so confused, like what crater
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: because all I could think was the town that PAREN
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: just saw. And I'm like, but we know that they
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: would have recognized indoor and architecture, so an endoran plan.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: And is in the north of Andor.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I was like, there's no craters, there's no
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: craters anywhere. This is such a randomly shot our logo
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: as a giant crater, And how do you explain a
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: giant hole in the ground like a rock from space
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: makes a lot more sense than the dragon Reborn cleansed
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: the tank.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Right, it just does. So that's I highlighted that with
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: no idea what it is, and then I just had that.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, giant crater, that's that's shot out logo.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, completely nodding. So yeah, Glad takes it upon himself
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: to assume he can take the resources from this baggage
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: cart to from this baggage train, and he's allowed to
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: just separate these people and interrogate them and do whatever
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: he wants to with them after he decides what their
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: stories are, like, yes, we'll be lawful, good about it.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: But also he just assumes that right because cop brain.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Well, and there are no rights, you know, this is yeah.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: It's true. There are no rights. There are the rights
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: that people decide to give you.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: We might and he's very much in this mite makes right.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: I just I think it's so funny how not mighty
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: the White Cloaks actually are. They think they're these big
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: strong He's like, we're gonna change the course of the
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: final battle. And then you know later when they're finding
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: the Traulx and Paren's doing his thing with the arrows
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: and the channeling, and he's like, wha, we ain't shit,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Like we are a relatively small body of not that
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: well trained troops who are not battle hardened and have
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: no channelers whatsoever. Like and then so then part of
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: me is like, I'm always the pattern needs to give
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: the White Cloaks to Para. And yet why they're useless,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: They're pointless, they don't make a difference. Is it just
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to get that rock out of his shoe.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: No they do. It's twenty thousand people to throw into
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: the meat grinder, like the last battle is a war
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: of attrition, so every scrap counts. It's dumb, it's stupid,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't create good stuff on the page, but it is
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: the rules of the game as set up by the author.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: So Basil Gil lies out of his teeth poorly because
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: he's obviously a Camp follower.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: He does the thing where he tries to tell the
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: parts of the truth that work right. He says he's
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Basil Gil, he's from and or he's you know, trying
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: to get back to and or all of that's true.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: You know, he's trying to build a good lie. He's
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: learned a couple of things, but unfortunately he's a terrible liar,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: and everything he's learned does not do him any good
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: in the face of Golod.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: And so he tries to sell Glad. He's like, I'll
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: tell you anything about my food, and Glad's like, the
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: food's the only thing we care about, because that's all
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: anybody cares about anymore.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: It was a good feint by Gil to be like, well,
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: what if I just tell you all this stuff that's
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: making you suspicious? Then can I get your suspicion off
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: my back? And then paren would have had no gear
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: for his camp followers, but he would have had his
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: camp followers. It's a pretty good last minute hail Mary,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't work.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, during this question, and it doesn't matter because born
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: haled somebody else has talked, and Bornhold has all the
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: relevant information anyway, So don't even know why I'm talking
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Bassel Gil because Bornholder runs up and says, yeah, there's
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: an army. It's led by this guy named Parana Bara
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: and parent golden eyes, parent golden eyes.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Sorry, very important that we call him golden eyes a gold.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: And Bornhold is like, yeah, that's the guy who killed
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: my father.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do have a problem with this guy. You
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: should know and he and Gold's like should I know him?
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Bornholl's like yes, part of my like entire personality, right,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: my entire personality is the parent golden Eyes killed my father.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: How do you not know this part of my lore?
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Literally, what I was doing for years was chasing this
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: guy down for like a year and a half. That's
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: why I was in the Two Rivers to begin with. Yeah,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: it's like have not told you the story.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: It's really funny how there's no communication in my wale
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: of time.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: I wanted to assume he'd like written reports and shit on that,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly. It's kind of like how Paren's secretary
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: dude not knowing God's personal sigil. It is just such
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: a weird plot hole. It's like, pretty sure Balwer would
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: know Goalot's personal sigil, given that he's, you know, the
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: essentially hostage stepson of more Gaze only like a year ago.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: I feel like he would have known that same thing here.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: I feel like if Golad is hanging out with these
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: guys and spending a lot of time with them, he
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: would know like the highlights of their personal stories, especially
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: if one of that stories includes a fellow child of
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: the Light being murdered.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: You know. And when I do like that Basil Gil
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: here recognizes Galad, right, He's like, oh, yeah, I know
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: who this guy is because he's been traveling with his mother.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: That's the other thing.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: That like Andy's Basilgil from andor like he knows Gollad.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Just because as king sure, but like part of me
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: wants to be like, Glad, your mother's alive let's go
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: get her. Come on, you know, like that level, Come
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: on Gil, right, like give him if.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Gil doesn't take initiative. No, Gil has like a negative
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: twenty to his initiative role. Like he never takes the initiative.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: He always waits for other people in the plot to
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: come to him and prompt him to do something. And
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: he is reluctant to take any action without being prompted
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: by like multiple other characters. But yeah, you would think
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: that he'd be like, oh my god, it's a lot,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you the most incredible thing. You'd
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: think he would have have just blurted it out or something.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: But no, yeah, that's all I have for that chapter.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: So we can just quote unquote POV switch into the
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: next chapter.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: And this is writing. This is the name of this chapter. Yeah,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: I read it as writhing when I first opened the chapter.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: What is the snake? The four panel snake? So I
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: can see that.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also me as I'm reading this, just
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: writhing in pain because it's a goin chapter. Ye, and
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: like this is this is some of the worst GO
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: one and some really bad a Gwaine too, right, Like
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I don't like a Guayne in this chapter at all. No, No,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: her stubbornness and refused to look from another POV. It
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: makes her feel dumb in a way that Agwayne's not
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: supposed to be dumb.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels so not like the Agwainne that I'm expecting, like,
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: which I mean, in fairness, this is how teenagers in
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: love behave in fairness, like, this is the level of
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: dumb assory that one would expect.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: But and it's Colin's POV, so maybe he's like sort
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: of interpreting. Maybe we're getting like his POV of Wow,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: she's like when in reality she's acting differently, but uh,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: And she's like trying to lock down because she's feeling
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: upset and uncertain, so her defense mechanism is to be
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: really stiff and formal and like again, like very human
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: to be stupid and dumb in this way.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: But yeah, not enjoyable to read though, Yeah.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Too too realistic, not enough beautiful fantasy growth arc where
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: people are better than they are in real life. Yeah,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: it's frustrating. It's even Sleet honestly comes off as annoying
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: in this. I don't know why Sleet's here, Like, I
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: know he's a great character. But all I see is
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Gwaen like boy crushing on everything in pants and then
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Sleet just kind of like grunting to the side, like
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: right here.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, narratively, I don't see why he's following Gwen around.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: I think it's just so that way we can be
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: like Gowen is in love with every handsome man he
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: sees like every man in this he's like, well, that
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: guy's cute, that guy's handsome, that guy's rugged, just like nice. Okay, Goen,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: sure be a bisexual disaster. That's very on brand.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: So he's investigating the murder of the fourth dead sister
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: since the shawn Chan attack. Since the shawn Chan attack, Gee,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: I wonder if they're connected.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: That's also since the reunification, also since the purge of
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: the Black Aja.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, fair enough, they did all kind of happen
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: at the same time.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which, like, honestly, I'm wondering about the timeline because
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: I thought that the Blood Knives had all, you know,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: activated their rings during the attack and they're only supposed
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: to last for a few days, and apparently there's been
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: a murder a day, but also a bunch of other
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: stuff has happened, So I'm confused about Like, I guess
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: some of the Bloodknives must have just not activated their
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: rings because the timeline just isn't isn't working.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I have a conspiracy theory about that.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: The rings don't kill you, but every Blood Knife ends
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: up dead, so they assume the rings kill you because
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: the Blood Knives go on suicide missions and.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Then they behave as dead men walking.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: So hmmm, No, that doesn't work because Gowan gets us
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: like I think he gets like weakness and like he
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: gets weaker while he's got the rings on.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and there's a whole thing about them taking
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: the rings off and on to slow the process.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, I guess then if you take the ring
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: off when you're not using it, But then like where
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: what are they just like finding a dark closet to
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: like crouching in the meantime while they take the rings off,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: And like.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: I guess that's what assassins do. They find broom closets
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: to hide in.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: So I'm knocking on the stall. We're in here, you know, like.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: I I's I don't know. I feel like the Blood
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Knives are a little bit shoehorned in and maybe don't
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: fit perfectly at all corners.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the tower is pretty empty, athlon saying, you know,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: there's there's lots of dark corners to hide in because
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: it is. But you know, you got all these apprentices
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: and stuff, and there's a lot of movement and a
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: lot of chaos.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: They've got dining halls full of dust, so there's probably
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: broom closets in those dining halls that really don't get
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: checked on. But yeah, he is investigating the murdercing because
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: he's not convinced that everything he's trying to do gumshoe
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: detective work basically.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: And the ice that I killed is Katerry Nephew. This
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: is one of the first of many I would call
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: fan helper inserts. So often I think people who helped
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: him the first one I've spotted. There may be others,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: but I do think people who helped with the especially
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: from like tour dot com or Dragonmount dot com who
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: helped Sanderson with these books. A lot of them do
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: get named in Towers of Midnight and a Memory of
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: Light and are often killed in really horrific ways.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Right, So such love from the author let me carry you.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's basically like you, because he's like, Oh,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: I need to kill somebody, so I'm going to make
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: up a new I said, Ah, I kill them off.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: They're not important. It's it's just I just need a body.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: And so these people who help support him in the
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: first book and later on I think ended up giving
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: mentions as dead people. Yeah.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: I remember hearing this lore. But it's good to actually
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: have an The only one I know is in Keeper
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Hatch at the Dusty Wheel. It's the only one that
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: But this the name of the character comes from Kate Nephew,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: who wrote Lord of the Rings reread from tour dot
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Com around the time Towers of Midnight was being written,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: So she was involved in toar dot com and I
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: only assume in some other way was involved with these
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: books and the creation of them. Yeah.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Sure, but tour dot com is the broad provenance and
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: that totally makes sense.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Cool neat So he just basically added an e R
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: because it's Kate, so it's Kate Ree and then her
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: actual last name.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: The other thing that I find weird about these murders
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: is that somehow they're like spread out across allegiances and
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: adjas and I'm like, how are the blood knives picking
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: up on all of that intrigue and drama for their assassinations?
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Like aren't they just kind of picking off whoever they
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: can find?
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Like I think that's what they're trying to say, is
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: they're just in random places all across the tower.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, but I.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: Feel like there's either too many deaths or not enough.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Well, also, there's multiple blood knives. These might not all
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: be being killed by the same knife. They might be
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: taking different floors or whatever.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: And then so what I'm saying days have been going
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: by and there's only four deaths. That means each blood
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: knife is killed like one person. What happened to them
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: like tearing through the ranks of the Iyesid eye and
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: committing murder? And it's like, just I don't understand. It
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't feel like there's enough death.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: My hypothesis for this has always been that they're trying
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: to figure out which death will cause the most chaos Slash.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: They're trying to get to a gwain and they're just
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: like nibbling at the edges while they gather intel on
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: various systems so that way they can make a much
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: more concerted push to like take out a whole haul
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: at once or something like that. That's been my plug
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: for that hole, because yeah, it's kind of weird. The
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: only reason I can think of for so few deaths
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: is that they're doing intel gathering rather than trying to
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: actually kill a significant amount of people.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: So then do they then only kill these people because
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: they are discovered? And if so, then how are they
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: just picking ice tod Eye who don't have orders.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: I figured they're testing various hypotheses about how to get
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: to is to die and how to kill them and
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: what defenses do they have. I think that's what's happening
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: is these are all test cases for how easy is
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: it to stabinize to die?
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Got it? And the answer quite easy?
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately quite easy. But again, this is what feeds into
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: his whole ward discussion, I mean, the whole warter thing.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: None of them have warders, and Going makes the pretty
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: logical argument that adding more words into the mix would
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: be a practical safety measure on the eve of the
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: last battle.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, Okay, reading that through again, what a
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: dumb fucking Okay, orders are a risk and if you send,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: because if a warder dies, you incapacitate in iid, I,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: And if you're sending these wards into battle, a lot
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: of them are gonna die, and all of a sudden,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: you have a bunch of incapacitated I said, I who
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: can't function because they're magically grieving warders.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because he's because he's extending this situation to a battlefield,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: which is a complete apples to oranges.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Like one percent. But he's also saying like, yeah, yeah,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: on the battlefield, it just doesn't make sense to me,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: because like you are going to essentially risk an isid
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: eye to have one slightly better warrior on the field.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: And his other argument is that isaid, I will be
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: safer if they have warders protecting them, But I'm like,
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: if the warder dies protecting them, it's it's It totally
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: makes sense in the context of working in your office
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: in the White Tower. It absolutely makes sense to have
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: all of your tower guards and and your personal bodyguards
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: and your your assets be all bonded and shit. But
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: it makes no sense when you're talking about like writing
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: a cavalry charge into a machine gun nest. It just
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't scale right. But it makes sense in the lead
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: of in the tower. It does make sense.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: So and it's like, yes, if you could give this
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: to every single warrior without risking you know, maybe one
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: sacrifice one iid eye and have them bond all of
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: them or something like that. Right, Like, but saying as
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: many sisters should take as many warders as they can,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: you're just increasing the chances that one of those warders'
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: deaths is going to incapacitate the Iidye.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe go and doesn't know about what happens to Isidye.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: But then I want a GWayne to push back and
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: be like that, you're just wrong, Like it just doesn't
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: make sense for these reasons. She just she's like, oh,
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: I'll consider that and I'll argue for it in the hall.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Like she doesn't push back at all on that.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: It's weird that she doesn't. Like I get if he's
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: ignorant of that cost. I get him saying that, but yeah, her,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: she's not. Her counter argument should be, no, I don't
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: know if we want to if we want to make
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: the glass cannons that fragile, and he should know because
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: he's in training to be a warder and he's gonna
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: be a warder. So if he doesn't know that, Igwaine
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: should be cluing him into that, like, now that is
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: important stuff to know about before you sign the contract.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: And he knows he's raised around all that stuff. He understands,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: like the warders don't keep that a secret.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: Right Yea, he knows a lot of warders, so he
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: does know. So, yeah, it's Igwain and Gounder frustrating.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Us in they're frustrating, Yeah, very frustrating in these chapters.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: So he's investigating, and he's obviously like finding evidence that
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: these are not you know, these very much are murders
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: by someone who probably doesn't have access to the power.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: There are no slits of the gateway. They're using knives,
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: they're breaking down doors, Like, none of that makes sense
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: if you have the one power. None of it. And
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: the iceid Eye aren't finding any residues. There's no channeling residues.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: We know they can look for that. So just again
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: and again and again, I get so frustrated that Agwayinne
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: through this entire chapter insists it must be a Massana
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: because she knows Massana's in the tower. Therefore Masana must
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: be killing people with knives.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: I in what piece of lore is Massana a knife girl?
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: She's an administrator, not a fighter. She was never into
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: athletics or parkour, Like, why are you assuming she has
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: to be the one with the knife.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: So here's I found a little bit of evidence for
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: my off the wall wacky theory that Gowain may have
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: been compelled. Right during the battle for the White Tower,
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Gowan found himself wondering how his mother would have handled
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: demands such as this. Gowin didn't often think of her,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: as doing so brought his mind back to ail Thor,
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: that murder had been allowed to walk away from the
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: White Tower itself awayne had held him in her hand
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: and had released them. True, Althor was the dragon reborn,
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: but in his heart, Gowin wanted to meet al Thor
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: with a sword in his hand and ram steel through him,
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: dragon reborn or not. And I think that just insane
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: obsession was part of the compulsion. That insane You know,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: also that like I don't think of my mother often, really.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Seems like you think about her a lot. First of all, Yeah,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: I also read that line of was just like that
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: feels so aggressive, aggressively, like out of nowhere, just like
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: I don't care if he's a dragon reborn. In my
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: heart of hearts, I gotta kill him. Like, that doesn't
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: seem very I mean, I know we hate on Gowan
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: a lot, but that doesn't seem like a rational, duty
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: driven reaction. Yeah, that fury just feels really misplaced. And
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: he talks about how he really needs to pull himself
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: back from the brink that he's been spilling over ever
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: since the Battle for the White Tower. He's like, yeah,
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: this last period of my life has really sucked, and
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: I got to figure out something different, like something changed.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: And yes there was a lot of trauma, but maybe
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: also you got a weird seed of rage put in
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: your head that's burning your subconscious at all times.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: And one of the reasons he believed the rumors with
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: no actual evidence is because he's just seeking out validation
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: for something he's already being forced to believe, which is
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: randal for the bad person who killed my.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: Mother being compelled into being your own gaslighting abuser. And
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: that is so grand.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: All.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Wait, are we saying that Grant Massana did this?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Massana?
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: I'm saying Masana, Yeah, that would be very grand, all.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Which is why it's not the best compulsion, right, It's
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: not this like air tight compulsion that makes him absolutely
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: you know, it's Massana doing it. She's not a fantastic compeller, right,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: there's holes in this thing. He has to find his
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: own motivation. It's closer to what Varren did than what
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: Grendall does.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Massana is an administrator and a teacher and
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: a trainer. But she's not a compeller so much.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is not to say only Grandall can compel
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: people like Robin did it, you.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: Know, but only very well. She only she can do
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: it super super well. Everyone else has cracks. I guess
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: Robbin was pretty good, but uh yeah, it's it's easier
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: to accept gen being so unreasonable if we allow Massana
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: some some hand in the equation.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: I just otherwise he doesn't make sense to me as
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: a character, which is fine. I only it makes sense
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: to a lot of people as a character. But I'm
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: willing to headcanon that and sort of just accept that
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: as Like. The reason why he sucks so much is
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: that he's struggling with this compulsion and fighting against it
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: and never really breaks free of some of the things
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: that makes him do. So this whole thing about Cubane,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: where Cubane thinks Gowin's trying to take his position as
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: I don't even remember what the.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Positions first captain of the tower guard.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, high Tower, the captain Yard, and Gowain has to
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: like pull aside and be like, listen, I just want
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: to fuck I mean bond A GWayne like that's all
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: I'm here for.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Right, And schu Ban is like, oh, you're thinking with
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: the small head.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Okay.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, child, okay, because you know it's a reasonable concern.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: He's new to the job. He hasn't had a great
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: track record because of forces outside of his control, like
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: Gareth Brynn and Gawan Cher can both seem like good
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: candidates to replace him, like of course he's defensive, and
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: then as soon as Godwin's like I'm just besotted with
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: the ombreline, He's like, oh, oh never mind, never mind,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: got Gareth Brynn already off the roster, and now this
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: little yeah, thinking with the other sword. You're thinking with
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: your little sword, all right.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: But he's on the right path with the detective work
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: at least, right He's like, I think this is some
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: kind of assassin, someone who uses knives, someone who and
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: then they find the scrap of black silk. So he's like,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: you know, a forsaken, wouldn't wear necessarily black silk, because
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: then you'd be like, you know, and I said, I
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: wearing black silk is like a big no no, right,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: especially with all the black sister is just being you know.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: Executed, right, Yeah, no, proclaiming yourself with black not gonna happen,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: but very traditional for assassins, right, it's for reasons.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: And so that's where he's and he's reading it quickly
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: where he's like, I don't think any sister would be
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: caught dead if we found black cloth. That's not coming
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: off a sister, especially not one who's moving around the
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: night trying to kill people. Right, this is the he's
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: I cant understand why wouldn't use the power? I don't
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: understand why they're wearing black. And it's like, well, because
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: they're not. Yeah, he's right, you know, his detective work
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: is good.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: These three men, with their non magical material based investigation
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: skills are doing a lot more actual discovery than Agwayne
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: and her assumptions.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Oh you know what, line pissed me off, going and
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: half a mind let her tory bond him. It's like, well,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: if you won't fuck me, maybe I'll just go have
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: sex with somebody else.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I just, I just and he's like, no, no, no,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: I do, I do love her. It's and then, oh,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: this is the line that pissed me to pissed me off.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Uh huh oh in red, it had not been easy
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: to decide to give up and Or not to mention
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: the young wings for her, yet she still refused to
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: bond him. You gave up your other I am sorry.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: What the actual fuck? She never asked for a check.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: He never gave up and Or.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: First of all, you can't give that shit up. You
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: have never formal gon through steps to give it up.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: She never asked you to give it up. You never
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: talked about giving it up. And she doesn't. Oh you
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: shit well.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: And he didn't even give it up for her. He
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: gave up and Or long before he was fucking trying
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: to be her order or whatever like he was being
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: the young lings. He gave up the and Or for
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: the young lings, first of all. And he only gave
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: up the younglings when he was like trying to be
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: assassinated as a leader, right like that was done anyway.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: He gave up the young lings too, but when he
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: betrayed them to go and steal her out of what
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: she wanted to do. Oh but she won't bond me
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: after all, I've sacrificed fuck all the way off. Yep,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: just h the self centered, spoiled, privileged entitlement. Yeah, exactly,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Voujie Sleep would have set that boy right. Hat Torre
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: should have bonded him because the Sleep could have sat
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: him in the corner and just hit him with a
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: book until he stopped spouting nonsense. Yeah, please Sleep, take
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: him away and give him to toy. Please.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: So he tries to interrupt Agwayne, and Sylviana properly says
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: the fuck no, she's on a call. Sits fuck down,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: and wait for her to get off the call.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's literally the CEO of a giant corporation closing
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: a huge business deal. You don't get to walk in
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: with a bouquet of flowers because you're sorry. Like take
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: a number.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: Reference to Alida's foundation for her palace, which I think
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: is all that ever got built.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she paved over the old water training ground, so
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: they have to build new water training grounds. But like, yeah,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: there's this half built beginnings of a palace. Like, what
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: are you doing with that? I'm assuming kentri into some
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: sort of weird museum or something.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: So I'm half convinced Trump has read this books and
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: is taking Alida as his like ideal, like he paved
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: over the rose garden, which is exactly like the parallels there,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: Just like, okay, you literally this is paving over the garden.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: Elida would never pave over a rose garden.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: That's true, that's true.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, just literally bulldozing really important stuff for
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: your vanity. We were making that comparison to blow off steam,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: not as a suggestion.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Trump li was to this podcast. He's like, oh, yeah,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: that's a good idea. Yeah, definitely.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: He reads Weekly Wheel News. It comes as small enough
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: bites for I Love you, rub It's just you know, pictures. Yeah.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: So Godwin looks out the window and thinks sad thoughts
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: until Agwayne has time for him, and then he is annoying.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we get the younglings have just basically gone
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: back into the fold as warders and training, which is
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: weird considering they're trying to kill each other two days ago,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: but fine.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: That happens with militaries all the time. There is later
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: a cool scene where a group of them who don't
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: want to be wards for exactly that reason, go to
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: him and are like, we would like something else to do, please,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: and he gets them like into they turned into a
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: unit of the tower Guard rather than warters, and that's
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: a whole thing that happens later. But yeah, for the
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: most part, the young Wings are dispersing back to their
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: original mission, which is, yeah, it's whatever soldiers do. Weird
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: shit in war with their allegiances, it's complicated.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: I kind of like this little detail that Agwainne's books
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: are all ornamental because she hasn't actually read any of them.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: It's just like they're ranged by color and size because
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: they're just like there to occupy space. Well because they've
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: moved a light of stuff out. But Agwaine doesn't have
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: anything of her own to put in.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: Its place, right, She's like a twenty year old who
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: showed up last week. Like she doesn't have a large
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: library accumulated. That's the work of at least a few
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: decades to accumulate a proper library, as an eyes todye.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: So yeah, but it's nice that her room isn't bare
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: and echoing they're like, no, no, no, we can find some
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: books from the backbins, the backstock of the library. We
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: could just bring some stuff up just to fill in
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: the walls.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: And then there's one good line from mcgwain that I
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: really like, where a Gollan's complaining that like, ah, well,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: you always show me the Ambulin. I want to hang
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: out with Agwaine and she's like, I show you the
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Amberlin because you refuse to accept her. Once you do,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: perhaps we can move beyond that. And that's something that
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: I think Matt was able to demonstrate with a single bow. Yeah,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: that Gowain still has not been able to do.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she says later, you weren't ready yet, Gowa,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: like you have work to do. There is a thing
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: in your brain that yeah, he needs to go talk
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: to Matt. Because Matt was perfectly able to like disrespect
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: her behind the scenes and then respect her in front
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: of where it matters, Like he got that right away,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: even though he was utterly disrespectful behind closed doors. And yeah,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: Gowa is just like, you have to always be Agwain
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: to me, You have to like talk out of both
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: sides of your face at all times. And GWayne very
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: reasonably is like, no, I need my husband to understand.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: That, and he doesn't have the excuse of being a
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: childhood friend. Yeah, you know, and he's just he he should.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: It's it's I've seen it in relationships where the guy
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: just infantilizes his significant other and is just like, oh,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: you can't do anything. I have to be there for everything,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: and I'll take care of you because you're helpless. And
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: it's like Wayne is the opposite of that person.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and God is just like, let me help you
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: understand how the world works, sweetie, Like, oh my god.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Gowen has not like Gowin living in his parents'
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: basement literally you know.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: Uh, he's literally man explaining how to be in Isidaie
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: to the Omberlin seat from Yeah, he's been like couch
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: surfing with his friends.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: He's like, oh, this is how you're a CEO, babe.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: She's like, I know I have the job. You don't.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you could have gone to and or you had
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: a job waiting for you. Your daddy had a job
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: there for you, but you didn't.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Instead you are mooching on your college professor's couch
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: for some reason.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, he suggests the bonds because the bond,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: does you know the person killing the is said, I
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: is not killing Isidi with warders, I guess. I mean,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: I think that's more just opportunity.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it's because they don't have
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: warders is what gives the opportunity. But like they're gonna
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: kill someone anyway, it's it's yeah. And the only good
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: line I like from Gowan in this is when Agwaine says, well,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: taking a warder is a very personal and intimate decision.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: He says, yes, so I was going to war, which
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, fair, rebuttle, fair, rebuttle. It is a
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: very personal intimate decision to decide to put your body
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: on the line in a war, like her putting the
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: eyes to die at a different level than the common
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: plubs is something that should be called out. And I
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: like Gawen being like, nah, we're all human here.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: But they are at a different level. They are way
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: more And I said, I as we're the hundred soldiers
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: in battle at least, right, But it's.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: A personal and intimate decision, Like it's just you're different weapons,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: but you're still people. It's a personal and intimate decision
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: to go to war. These aren't just toy soldiers you
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: can line up and knock down because you live for
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: three hundred years, like these are people. I don't agree
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: with his overall thesis. I just like that particular exchange.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, fair point.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So then Agwayne sort of tries to talk
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: around the fact that Massana is in the tower and
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: then eventually just comes out with it the killers access
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: to the one power and perhaps they are not using gateways,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: basically saying they're in the tower.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we know exactly who they are. We just don't
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: know who they are what they're doing.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: Except you're totally wrong, right, yeah, so wrong not saying
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: Massan is not there, but that's not the person committing
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: these murders.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Here's another line from going back to the warder. A
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: sister not bonding a warder is an active selfishness. Eh no, no,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: that is the core of why he's wrong. Just right, No,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: it's not an active selfishness. Like sisters get to choose
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: what they want to do, soldiers get to choose what
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: they want to do. Like, don't be calling people's choices
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: selfish either direction, please thank you anyway.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: And then you have to go to all the soldiers
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: and be like all of you who don't want to
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: get bonded, suck it up and make yourself available, right,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: because it's not you don't get that choice anymore.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, we need a more open conversation with no forcing.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: That's what we actually need is we need a much
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: more open conversation between the soldiers and the eyes that
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: die about options and then people can make their own
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: damnae choices instead of enforcing it either way. Anyway, back
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: to the Massana clearly stabs people thing.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: Right, right, and so as part of that Agwayne wants
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: Gala to stop guarding her door because how else can
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: you can't because if she's gonna tempt her to come in,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: she either has to remove goalid or God's gonna get
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: killed in that infiltration, right, Like, stop guding my door.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: I'm setting a.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: Trap, right, And he's like, how dare you ask me
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: to do this thing for you? That's part of your
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: larger plan. She literally says, we do one thing for me.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: He says anything. She says, stop putting yourself literally in
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: the way of a train that I know is coming.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: And he says, absolutely not. I will stand in the
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: way of the train. No, dude, what what what? I
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: just like? And this is why we don't trust you, Gawin.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: This is why Agwain doesn't trust you. This is why
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: the audience doesn't trust you. Is because you cannot trust
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: anyone else or follow through with your own word for
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: more than five seconds. And he's like, well, I'm basically
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: your order and she has to say, no, you're not.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: You're literally not my word yet, like that's actually really important.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: We're not water And I said, I that's important, and
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: you have.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: To prove to me that you can be my ward
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: before I'm giving you that role.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: He's like, but I love you. Isn't that proof enough? No, No, Actually,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: it's a really weird thing for you to assume.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: Because most warders aren't in love with their ey said
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: I yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: And doing something just because your horny is like not
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: great when you're in charge of lots of stuff.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: So then we he leaves and we stick with A
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: Gwaine and Poe switch to her and get her thoughts.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: A Gwaine is being such a dumb teenager in love
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: and it's realistic and I don't like it.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: It's also I feel like it's also not realistic in
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: that like she doesn't She's like, oh, I don't understand
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: how bonding would work. It's like, come on, you've talked
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: to enough, I said, I you know how bonding works.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: Well, But there's knowing how it works academically, and there's
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: knowing how you'll react to.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: It sure, and how it feels.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: I suppose, Yeah, these are different things. You can read
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: about taking LSD all you want, but it doesn't mean
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: you actually are prepared for it. But yeah, she's just
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: horny for him.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: Basically.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: It feels like that is going to complicate her ability
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: to be the Omborlin seat as an institutional solid person.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: And I mean, I would say that fear is kind
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: of not unfounded because certainly it's realistic. But she doesn't
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: really make a lot of bad decisions about Goblin until
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: the very last one, you know, Like he doesn't super
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: get in the way before that last thing, you know.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean is helpful almost by accident.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, like she's so concerned about this and it's
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: like it's not really an issue until he actually dies,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: Like that's when it becomes an issue. But like being
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: bonded to him up until then doesn't really make her life.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Worse, doesn't make it better though.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: No, But she's concerned it's going to make it worse.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: It doesn't actually, but yeah, then she goes back to
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: her more important business of gathering all of Rand's allies
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: for the fields of marylor that's the other that's the
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: letter she was writing in the earlier POV is telling Darlin, Hey,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: here's the time and place where we all got to
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: meet up. And you know, Darlin comes to support Rand,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: but Agwayne does all the secretarial legwork of telling him
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: where and when, even if it's in the guise of
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: come oppose Rand.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: And that's where we get the Marylora for from is
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: that's where they urge you. Yeah, And honestly, this is
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: sort of a weird POV because it's super short and
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I don't really have anything to say about it other
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: than her being like Gollin tracnned is annoying and the.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Tea isn't spoiling as much lately.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's right.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: There's a lingering echo of Rand's presence on the food stores.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: We weren't sure about that when we talked about it before,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: but it appears that there is some lasting effect from
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: his visit.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: It does fade over time, though, right.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: But it's not quite as acute as just being in
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: a radius of him, And then yeah, it's hack. Can
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: we get to our dessert now? Please? I just want
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: the dessert. Granddad to rejoin.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: Granda Air warns, do you want to read us in
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: on this one?
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: The first time this episode, Grandall anticipated the messenger's arrival
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: even here in her most secret of hiding places. Because
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: arrival was not unexpected, the chosen could not hide from
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: the Great Lord. The hiding place was not a palace,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: a fine lodge, or an ancient fortress. It was a
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: cavern on an island nobody cared about, in an area
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: of the arth Ocean that nobody ever visited. So far
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: as she knew, there was nothing of note or interest
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: anywhere near. The accommodations were downright dreadful. Six of her
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: lesser pets cared for the place, which was merely three chambers.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: She'd covered over the entrance with stone if the only
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: way in or out was by gateway. Fresh water came
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: from a natural spring, food from stores she'd brought in previously,
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: and air through cracks. It was dank, and it was lowly.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: In other words, it was precisely the sort of place
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: where nobody would expect to find her. Everyone knew that
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: Grandall could not stand a lack of luxury. That was true,
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: But the best part about being predictable was that it
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: allowed you to do the unexpected. I just love her.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: She's so fun, so much good stuff. And this is
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: very much like where Matt hides the cannons in the
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: Last Battle, where he finds a cavern that sealed and
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: puts them in there.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, and then they just opened the wall
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: to a different angle on the battlefield fire and then
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: close the gateway again, which is super clever. I mean,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: the ultimate gunner nest.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: That is clever because the gateway doesn't have to face
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: the same way in and out.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a really cool idea from Grendall. It's
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: just like, yeah, it's it's a Heidi hole that no
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: one would suspect her of having or maintaining.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's an island apocalypse bunker is what it is
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: with only six of her lesser pets. I love her
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: idea of roughag it is still to have six servants.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: Well, someone's got to maintain it, that's true.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: Do you think that she just had the same six
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: there all the time, or did she like rotate them
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: to keep them fresh, like the food.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: Mmmm, probably just the same six.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they don't need to be refreshed at the
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: same rate as like fruit. So they've just been hanging
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: out there for like a year or whatever, however long
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: it's been since she built this bolt hole. They've just
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: been hanging out there.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: Well. And I have to assume that she only covered
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: it up with stone after she started using it. Before then,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: the six people were coming and going and like bringing supplies.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: How they're in the middle of the ocean. I assumed
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: that she was like gatewayhing stuff in periodically and just
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: having them like eat it down and then she'd bring
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: in another load.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: And like it does say food stores, she'd brought in previously.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: I mean that's what you want to do with survival food,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: is you don't want to just store it forever. You
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: do need to rotate through it. So she could have
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: had the servants rotating through the food. Yeah, Granda is
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: a glamper. Yes, I figured that this is like hundreds
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: of miles from anything, like completely impossible to sail to
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: and from unless you know exactly where you're going. And
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: her pets probably don't have the skills because they're all
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: pampered nobles. Plus, it would, you know, allow people to
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: find her if there was shipments going in and out.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: But if it's all gateway based, then it's completely secret.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: Just secret enough for the dark One to find her.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: Well, the dark One's got a GPS tracker into her ear.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: So right, so this messenger shows up, No idea who
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: flat features in, deeply tanned skin, wearing black and red.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: Some guy, some guy doesn't say anything, doesn't show up again.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: He's just the message and the means of transportation all
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: at once. And yeah, she gets summoned to Mordon. So
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: she goes from a cold, dank cave in the ocean
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: to the blistering heat of the Blight in one step.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: Rough reading a book called A Light in the Snow.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: No idea what that means In the audiobook, I always
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: thought it was a light in the snow, but in
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: the text I can see it is a light as
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: in the bird, a lit upon a branch, a light
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: in the snow. I guess you get some sort of
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: weird esoteric sex poetry, because that seems like what Grandall
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: would do to try to pass the time.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have to assume it maybe about
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: not making an impression, and yeah, I've got nothing.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: Just a spot for the second age.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: So they end up in Mordan's Blackstone Palace, which I
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: still think is in the world of dreams. Sure, I
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: think this is always in the world of dreams. I
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: don't think this palace ever exists in the real world.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, she does say that she tries to not sweat,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: she tries to do the concentration thing and it doesn't work,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: which she's like, ah, something's wrong, And being in the
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: dream world where Mordon controls everything would qualify.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: Right, So that's my theory as to why she ends
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: up sweating. Sure, either that they're right by shale Ghoul
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: and somehow the sweating is tied to the channeling, and
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: because she can't well, she doesn't mention she can't channel
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: or anything like that.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I do feel like she would have
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: noticed if she was in the dream world, but maybe.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: Not not necessarily if it's in one of his bubble
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: universe streams, right, because he has control over those in
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: a way that like is more set than in the
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: general world's dreams. It's a separate, little miniature world that
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: you miniature world that you have total control over.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: I'm just surprised she doesn't note the flavor and comment
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: to herself. But I guess she's also got a lot
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: on her mind, so maybe it just kind of slides
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: on by, And so.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: Then what follows is her spinning what happened with getting
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: bail fired.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: Right, which I find so interesting because I'm like, surely
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: the Great Lord himself does know the truth, which means
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: he's keeping it from Morden.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: I think the Dark Lord doesn't necessarily know the truth.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: I think there is a matter of he is not omnipotent.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, I kind of figured he was to some extent,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: But I guess she's the only witness to what she did,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: and if she's not divulging that information, then how else
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: would the Dark Lord get it?
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: That's that's fair, because he doesn't have the direct mind
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: to mind communication, right. We saw that with the birds
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: and the murd Drawl, and like they have to report
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: back to him, and.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: We've seen this forsake and say that, like they know
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: that the Dark Lord can't like read their.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: Their minds, Yeah, exactly, or else they would be screwed, you.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: Know, well, he's but they didn't die though they got
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: bail fired, so there's no chance for a status report
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: as they go.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: Out, right, I mean he's aware they're dead, right, He's like.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, but the exact means.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: Grendall's like, oh, yeah, she didn't go when I told
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: her to, when reality she tied her up in weaves
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: and prevented her from doing anything, right, but no one
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: was witnessed. All he knows is that she was bailfired,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: not that she was tied up. Right, they can believe
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: the oh she failed to flee when I told her
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: to little white lie that Grendall tells.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Mordon's pissed, but she's able to spend this
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: as a mistake rather than a choice, and he actually
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: buys it. She actually manages to get one by him.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: He's still mad at her, but like he can't be
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: as mad as he would be because she's able to
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: successfully hide that she is the reason they are dead.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: And I feel like Lanfeard does a bunch of similar
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: stuff where she's like helping Ran but saying she's trying
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: to hurt.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: Him right the whole Well, I have to lead, I
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: have to help him, so that my betrayal will hurt
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: all the worse, right I have, And Grandall's argument is
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: I had to induce him to kill hundreds of people
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: at a time because that will cause him spiritual anguish.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: I had to let him find me, right, She like
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: passes off as like like I obviously lose there and
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: had to be led by the nose to find me.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: It was like super hard for him to figure it
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: out on his own. I had to help so much.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: It was all on purpose to get him to kill
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: these people because we know that will be the thing
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: that hurts him worst, which I mean it does kind
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: of push him over the edge, but also like he
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: was tipping over that edge without the fortress, So if
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: Mordan was really paying attention, he'd be like, m well,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: was that the only way? I don't know, Sammarrock seemed
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: to do pretty good with just almost killing men.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: So making him kill men.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, interesting forsaken thought here. Yeah, when she's she's
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: thinking about, you know, playing the Mordan loose there in game,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: and then yeah, she could vaguely remember what it had
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: been like taking those first few steps towards the shadow.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: Had she ever felt that foolish pain?
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, unfortunately that is a huge admission.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, the idea that like she actually felt
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: bad at one point in a way that Semarog never did.
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: Like that contrast right there is like okay, yeah, so
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: the Forsaken really are three dimensional villains. They're thirteen different
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: people with thirteen different motivations.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: And it makes Samarov all that much scarier because she's
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: the one who doesn't who always was evil, you know.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: Like she came that way stuck.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: Everybody else is scared of her, but I the and man,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: just the way she the floor Beans really made her
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: less threatening in a way that makes me like, oh yeah,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: she was not that scary. She got captured easily and
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: she broke easily. Yeah.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: I wonder if there's something in that where like because
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: she didn't choose to be evil, it's like easier to
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: get into her head or something because she just was
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: that way already, Like she didn't rationalize her way into it, right,
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: Like a shawmele like has reasons capital are, you know,
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: And that's what Grandal's thinking about. It's like a shamele
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: has memories and rationales and maybe that makes it I
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: don't know. I still disagree with floor Beans I just
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: don't think that was correct a Semaro's character or Katsman's
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: character for that matter.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: I was talking about how everyone needs to report back
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: to the Dark One. It appears that Moradon no longer
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: does that. Yeh has the direct mind connection, that the
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: Dark One has broken enough into the world, and that
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: he's elevated Mordan as napeless, and that he has that
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: ability to communicate direct mind to mind.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: Which is wild like, and I like that she points
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: out that this is new because it's like, wait, was
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: this always possible? No, no, no, no, no, this is a thing
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: that even a forsaken is surprised by.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: And so as an alternative too, she's like, well, since
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: I know I'm I'm hidden right, Althoor doesn't know him alive,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: and so I can do something that you've been trying
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: to do for a while, which is killed Parene Barrow
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: right right.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: Mordon says, you're in the doghouse. You have one last chance,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: and she says, parent, parent, I can get paren, I
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: can get the wolf, And then Mordon says, you're not
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: gonna be able to get him on your own. Let
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: me give you a toy. Also, let me give you
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: the contract for Slayers, So you actually have two toys.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: Right, and that toy is the dream spike.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, which it does exist in the real world. In
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: this moment, he taps it and then it vanishes, presumably
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: to exist entirely in the dream world for her to find,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: which also would imply that this is not the regular
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: dream world. Yeah, yeah, because it can't vantaged into the
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: dream world if it's already in the dream world. That
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: wouldn't make sense. This has to be a dream shard
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: or the real world can't be regular.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: Telleronriod and we see that he has many, many objects.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: Of power, so many more than ever get brought into play.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: Why is he not throwing all of these into the fight?
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: What's going on here?
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: I wonder if they're fakes, decoys, decoys, that this is
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: all just he pulls the one reel tell the turn
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: real out of his storage, and everything else is just
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: a distraction that.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: Would be really easy to do in a dream chard,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: very affordable and efficient and if you just control everything
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: with your mind.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: But I prefer the idea that he's just been in cumulated.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: Like anytime anything gets discovered by the dark Side, it
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: goes off the chain to him, and he's stashing it
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: away in his little custom dream chard, thinking he's gonna
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like when you say potions for the
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: final boss and then you never end up using.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: Him, right, Like yeah, yeah, and I just don't.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: Feel like he can trust a lot of his minions
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: with the objects of power. They'll try and challenge him.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it also would have been cool if suddenly
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: a bunch of objects of power we're like powering up
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: all the dreadlords, like kind of like the Sharans. Just like, wait,
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: this wasn't supposed to happen, Like what if suddenly there's
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: like multiple oath rods or a shock glance is suddenly
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: in the picture. That would have been cool. But no,
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: they just yeah, sit in his inventory unused, like.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: A whole group of like, Oh, I have a shock glance,
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: let's copy it and distribute that, so we have an
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: army armed with shock lancees lances and how you have
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: to adapt to those that sort of thing.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: It would have made a cavalry unit like the White
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: Cloaks a lot more effective if shot glances had been
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: in the picture.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: All I'm saying they mentioned something called a Rema car
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: no idea. Could not find any information on no idea,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: no information on there, not even like old tongue references
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: to those two parts of the word, couldn't find anything
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: like that. He references that he's got two spikes.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: Where's the other one?
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: Black tower?
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: Right right, I'm like, I know that, I know this,
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: but I'm not it's not coming to my black tower. Yes,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: it's being put to good use holding down gateways out
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: of the Black Tower.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So that's where is going to discover that,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: and Androl are gonna be like, oh, I can't make gateways? Yeah,
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: useful in so many different ways, right, This is you
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: can protect your palace, prevent people from gatewaying into your
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: private structure, capture other people. Right, there's just a Gateways
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: are such a useful thing anytime you can prevent them. Also,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: if you like, you can prevent people from freely traveling
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: in the world of dreams into your special place.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Right, So real handy.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: And I do like that. Mordan's like, and I have
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: the key for this one. So they're complicated, right, If
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: you have the key, you can disable it, you know.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: So I thought that was going to come into to
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: play with paren trying to disable the other one. Instead
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: of him just tossing it into dream lava, Paren.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: Did a two rivers and just punched it right.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: It just broke it.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: He's like, you don't have to unlock it if you
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: destroy it with lava. It's one of those that can't
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: be stuck if it's liquid kind of situations.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: I melt it. And Mordan also promises Grendel if she
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: does kill Paren, she'll get much more access to the
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: true power, which is very much like, oh you want
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: the real drug.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he says, you're at the edge of losing favor,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: but here have some toys and the promise of much
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: more access to the true power. If you don't pull
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: this off, then you're useless to me, Like, I'm giving
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: you all the advantages. I'm giving you assistance, I'm giving
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: you incentive like do it or die, And.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: I think there's a little bit of here's some rope
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: to hang yourself with as well.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: Why not both? Why not? But if you pull this off,
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: it'll be spectacular And if you don't, you will have
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: hung yourself for me.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you, and you get to be Haslam, which is
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: does that mean last? No, it's Sindane's last chance.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: What's Haslam beautiful one or something. It's a reference to
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: her appearance because she gets made ugly, because the dark
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: One has a very juvenile sense of punishment.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about that later.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: Without forgiveness, that's what it is, Thank you Vouji, because
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: she is very much without forgiveness. Grandall's not a forgiving person.
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: Well, I thought she wasn't forgiven for her mistakes. That
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: that's why she made mistakes, and so she's brought back
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: with forgiveness.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, that actually makes a lot more sense. That actually
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: makes a lot more sense. Good call.
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: The next thing I have is the prophecy.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got a human skin bound book of dark
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: prophecy to look at, which we've seen this before, I
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: believe once, or we're gonna it feel like there's two
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: instances of us seeing this the book.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen dark prophecies before, certainly, I don't
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: think I've ever seen the book before.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: Oh was the book not in that scene?
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: I think it was in the morgen Blight Palace situation,
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: So I guess I'm assuming it's from the same book
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: either way. But yeah, anyway, We've got a human skin
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: bound book of dark prophecy which is creepy as hell.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: And yeah, we talk about what is in it, which
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: I believe is referencing the thing that we heard earlier
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: in a dark Prophecy. It's referencing the same thing, right,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: the same passage.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: So this prophecy is actually in it's full at the
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: end of the book in the epilogue.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's where we see its end of this book.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: We haven't seen it yet, but we will see it.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: We haven't seen it yet, so I was going to read.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: It, okay, because we've talked.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: We've talked about it, and you'll see the line that
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: comes up. But I don't think it refers to parent.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: I think is the problem is they're misinterpreting the prophecy.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: Well apparent clearly doesn't die. So something arise somewhere lo.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: It shall come upon the world that the prison of
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: those who crafted it. Once again, his glorious cloak shall
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: smother the pattern of all things, and the Great Lord
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: shall stretch forth his hand to claim what is his.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: The rebellious nations shall be laid barn and their children
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: cause to weep. There shall be none but him and
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: those who turn their eye to his majesty. In that
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: day when the one eyed fool travels the halls of morning,
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: and the first among vermin lifts his hand to bring
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: freedom to him, who will destroy the last days of
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: the fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come yeay, and the broken Wolf,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: the one whom death has known, shall fall and be
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: consumed by the midnight towers. And his destruction shall bring
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: shake their very will itself. And then shall the Lord
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: of the Evening come, And he shall take our eyes,
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: for our souls shall bow before him, and he shall
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: take our skin, for our flesh shall serve him, and
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: he shall take our lips. For only him will we praise.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: And the Lord of the Evening shall face the broken Champion,
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: and shall spill his blood and bring us the darkness
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: so beautiful. Let the screams begin, Oh, followers of the Shadow,
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: beg for your destruction. It's pretty long prophecy, it.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Is it is there's I mean, the last one is
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: mostly just flourish. That last paragraph is mostly just cape twirling.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot of flourish in there. Yeah.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that middle paragraph is really where the meat of
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: what we've got to talk.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: About, because the beginning is just the gnashing and wailing
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: of children. He shall come, he shall destroy, he shall
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: claim what's his right. But yeah, the one eyed fool
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: travels the halls of morning, right, that's Matt going to
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: the Finn.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it is, isn't it. It's not blinded, that's
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: one eyed. That's a different sort of oracular damage. I
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: sort of was like, oh, yeah, it's Rand because there's
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: eye damage. But no, no, no, you're totally right. It's Matt
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: having had his eyeball plucked out dull.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: And I think the halls are morning Halls of mourning
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: is what those halls are called. That he runs down
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: in the world of the Fin.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: I could see that being the name. Yeah, it's not capitalized,
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: but yeah, the Finn cause a lot of mourning in general,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: so that seems appropriate.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: And the first among vermin lifts his hand to bring
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: freedom to he who will destroy first among vermin.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: Rand right, no Faine, no.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: Who Gordon lifts his hand to bring freedom to the
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: dark one who breaks the seals of the Dark One's
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: prison low game. He's the first among the vermin in
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: this case are.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: The Schaman, the Black Tower. Yeah, okay, okay, it's Logane, Okay, yeah,
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: all right, Logan is first young verman. I like it.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: The last days of the fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, all right, this is where they think they're
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: talking about parent Yes, but you think it's.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: Not well, I think this is the last day. He's
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: no longer a blacksmith, right, So he's no longer prideful.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: He is humble, and so these are the last days
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: of his pride. Right, that's when he throws away his acts, and.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: When he throws away denying the leadership mantle that is
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: clearly already affixed to his shoulders, because it does take
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of pride to deny they you're the leader,
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: and takes humility to accept the responsibility.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, yay. And the broken Wolf, the one whom death
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: has known.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: That's going to be Hopper, right, because he's already dead.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, and he will die again and fall and be
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: consumed by the Midnight Towers, which.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: The Midnight Towers in this case, I take it as
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: allegorical for just the final death of things.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: Or it's not Hopper, because I think the Midnight This
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: is hard, right, because the Midnight Towers one that could
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: be the Sean Cham It could be the Forsaken. We've
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: heard the Forsaken referred to as the Midnight Towers, right,
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: or it could be I think in the Midnight Towers
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: is the Towers of the Finn again, right, And so
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: the broken Wolf could be null and death has known more.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: He's been under the care of Morden.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: But how does his destruction bring fear and sorrow to
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: the hearts of men?
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: That's why it doesn't work very well.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: Because I feel like with Hopper it kind of does.
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: It works better.
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: Hopper's loss really does affect paren and that affects a
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: lot of the hearts of men. I just consumed by
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: the Midnight Towers, is like, but he was just consumed
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: by regular perma death. He was not eaten by a
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: nightmare or stolen by a forsaken. You know, he just died.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: But isn't he killed by Slayer?
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: He is killed by Slayer. He gets stabbed super hard.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: That's right, So you know Slayer as a tool of
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: the forsaken Midnight towers right.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, the whole shake their very will itself. I
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: like it's so obviously red Herring pointed at Paren because
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: he's right. So it's like, but who actually else fits
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: the bill?
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: Who does? Right? Yeah, if this is not Paren, because
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: we I think we agree that it's not Paren.
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: Well, he's not a broken wolf, for why he's got
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: a broken crown and he's a wolf, but he's not
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: a broken wolf. Boundless doesn't die. He's kind of a
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: broken wolf, but he doesn't die. Hopper literally is broken
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: by physical damage, but like nobody except Paren knows about him,
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: so his fall can't. I mean, he does become the
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: like avatar of Malinear, but that brings heart and will
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: to men. It doesn't really break their will. It kind
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: of adds to their will.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: And it is looking like Sanderson says, the broken wolf
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: is Hopper.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean the hammer does definitely impress a lot
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: of people, for sure. The magic hammer definitely strikes a
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: lot of emotions into various hearts.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: I'm just doing some research see if I can find
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: anything else.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: Because the one whom death has known really points at Hopper,
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: like who else has known death? Especially capital D death.
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's where what is death right because Mordan
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: his name is death.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: Martin's name is literally death, and.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: He was literally compelling nol Oh.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: Also, okay, here's another hypothesis, Acelda, because he's literally called
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: the little wolf and then he gets broken and compelled
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: right to sabotage the plans and yeah, then Elias comes
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: and knocks him over.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is such a better interpretation than
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: the little wolf who's broken because of compulsion. Death has known.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's fought so much, he's killed so many,
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: he's falled consumed by the Midnight Towers, which is the compulsion,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: and his distraction shall bring about fear and sorrow, right
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: because the four generals are being compelled.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: And he really did no death because he because he
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: has survived Maldon at that point, not Maldon. He has survived.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: Uh but what's that town? Yeah, I don't remember the city,
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: but that that city that Rand goes and staves at
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: the very end like he has he has he has
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: known death by the time that he gets to that point.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: So I think is I Toalda. I think I think that, Yeah,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: I think we've discovered that I'm okay with that, because
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: his destruction does shake what's left of the army, like
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: losing the generals one after another, like it is a problem.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: The only difference is that he no and he is
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: consumed by the Midnight Towers. If the Midnight Towers are forsaken,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: that is, being consumed by the Midnight Towers like a
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: forsaken literally did take him out of the fight, even
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: if he didn't literally die.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what was intended, but that's
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: my favorite interpretation so far.
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, I will I would agree with that. This may
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: be more of a head cannon, but sometimes head cannon
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: is more correct because sometimes the author is wrong. We
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 2: have decided this on this podcast. Sometimes the author is
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: simply wrong, like this headcanon better than Hopper, but your
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: mileage may vary. Dear audience, please yell at us and discord.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I believe canonically it's supposed to be Hopper.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 2: Still sure, I could totally see Sanderson thinking that this
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: was a good reference to Hopper. I just I like
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: guys are all the better.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: This is one of the only times we actually see
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: someone using the true power from someone else's perspective because
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: Grendall sees more than open a portal. Yeah, she calls
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: it a portal, not a gateway. The twisted weaves stab
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: the air and rend it ripping a hole in the
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: fabric of the pattern. Like that great description, but because
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: you have to, but it is. It's an interesting piece
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: of lore because it means that if you have the
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: ability to touch the true power, you can sense and
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: see somebody else using it, which in all of the
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: cases you.
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 2: Can't, right, right, and like actually for people to see
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: it across the gender line, because this is the non gender.
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: Power in right as a woman for the first time
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: seeing a man channeling right, like literally seeing it right.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: The only other time we've had that has been with
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: the Bowl of the wind, like shaping itself around a
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 2: void that you can kind of infer the shape of
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: the weave from the shape of the void, but like
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: it's not the same. She actually just sees this because yeah,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: the Dark Lord didn't take away the ability for her
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: to use the true power, Like she's in the doghouse,
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: but she's still.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: Still just a trickle, but yeah, not completely.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: Kicked out at the club. And yeah, Morden is very
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: wrong about this prophecy. He says this for telling promises
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: that a bar will die by our hand, and yeah,
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: no he doesn't. So the prophecy might be true, but
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: your interpretation is dead wrong.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: Which agrees with also Agwayne's interpretation of her prophecy, right. Like,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: I think that's definitely a theme in the books, is
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: like you might have something that's true in retrospect, but
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: you're going to interpret it wrong, And there's really no
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: point in basing your actions on how you interpret the prophecies.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: Rand might be the exception.
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's the acception of so many things that
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 2: it's like almost par for the course for it to
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: be an exception for him at ways.
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: I think the Koreathon cycle was written for him to read, Yeah,
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: guide his footsteps.
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's written for him. It's speaking to him.
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: Everyone else is not meant to be in that conversation.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: Because he always interprets things correctly, Like he figures out
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: what the iel are that they're mentioned in the prophecies
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: and he goes and seeks them out right. Yeah, And
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: like I feel like Elida does it gets it wrong,
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: Min gets it wrong all the time, Agwayne gets it wrong,
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: Paren gets it wrong right all these people, especially people
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: who interpret their own visions. I think you have a
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: better chance of interpreting somebody else's. I think your owner
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: almost unless you.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: Know no, right, yeah, with the extra layer that can't
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 2: be logiced. Yeah, so yeah, that's all I got.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: Yep, he teleports out of there and she has her
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: final chance, which sets up all of Paren's arc with
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: Gallaude going forward. And uh yeah, I like the way
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: we handled that. I think we went through it in
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: enough detail without hitting every single point on two very
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: long chapters.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: We probably hit too many points. I'm interested how many
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: minutes I'm going to whack out of this? Fine, you
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: know when you've done, because right now we're over two
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: hours and there's some shit I am taking out.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely, Yeah.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm glad we combined these two so we
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: could just swallow that bitter pill all at once. I
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: really didn't enjoy most of that, Sorry, audience.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: That was rough. That was rough. Yeah, that was there again.
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: There was points in there that I liked, but it
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: was a hard It was a lot of pages of
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: that with a lot of cutting, I should say, like
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: we glossed over huge chunks of text without saying much
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: about them where it's just stuff that parents repeating that
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: we've read many times before.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you all for powering through with us. We do
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: appreciate it, Yes, we appreciate it. Continue to engage with us,
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: share the content, Engage with my other podcasts, drink water,
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: appreciate August weather or not as the case. Maybe it's
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: a bunch of places for its sucks, but it might
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: be nice where you are.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: Joy us next week for a lot more parent stuff
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: and a little bit of land.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: No fun land. Get that to look forward to.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got parent figures out, circles and forget bigger
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: gateways and tries to make more but Gase get married.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll have lots of fun things to say
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: about that. And then parent and Gallad encounter each other
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: for the first time.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: All right, awesome, looking forward to getting through that. Come
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: back next week for more of us complaining about our
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: favorite books.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: It's really what we should rename the podcast complaining about
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: our favorite books.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: Truly, truly, thank you for listening to the Wheel of
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and review us on your
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: podcast app, and consider supporting us on Patreon for ad
• 1:45:11
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• 1:45:15
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• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: visit our website at foxendravenmedia dot com.