Latest / Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche / Technical Difficulties on Death Row (w. Corinna Barrett Lain)

Transcript

Technical Difficulties on Death Row (w. Corinna Barrett Lain) · Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foote.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: I'm Melissa Malbranch.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to be talking about how beautiful Bollywood is,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: all the booties and heated rivalry, how kids are exhausting,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: are candid thoughts on transracialism, an interview with Karina Barrett
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Lane on capital punishment, and we're going to respond to
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: your comments entails from the DMS, So stick around. Why
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: was I Southern? I'm Paula Dean. Welcome Baya.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: I just don't know. I'm calling you police.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Officer, officer, you can pull off that first, I think
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: so one. I love it. I agree you described it
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: as I.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Feel like this makes me look like somebody who supports NPR.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, you've got your tone and.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Like I also support the.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Met Your name's Rosemary. You're from the Upper West Side. No, no, no,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: just you as yourself?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: It's no, yeah, it's definitely me as myself. And I
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: feel like my husband and I just flew in from
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: the coast, the Ivory coast. I like that.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Did you get this best?
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I love it. It was a it was a raffle,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: you know which raffle?
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: MPR. No was it at the.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: It was at the end of the year.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Raffle Okay, yep, I know what you're talking about.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wanted it.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I love it. Show everyone this best. I'm going to
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: describe it for the people listening in their cars flying
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: down the way.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Tie designer whose name I kid.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: It's beautiful, It's got these little tassas, it's got a
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: great one time I had like a it was clearly
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: affiliated with an ethnicity sweater that I was looking at
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: online and I sent it to you.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: And what did I say?
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: And I said, can I pull this off?
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: And what did I say to you?
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: And I already knew the answer because you did this
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: to me too, where you'll send me a vintage and
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: you'll be like, can I get this? And I'm like, enough, okay,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: enough with the fir But we are each other's gut check. Yes,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: you're a friend.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Where it's like temperature check or can I not?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: And you said, I don't know what culture it is,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: but I know that culture doesn't belong to you.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Bitch, I am.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: And I was like that you were You said exactly
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: what I was saying you were thinking, which is that
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: you know what? That was the hesitation within me and
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I couldn't really articulate it, but you could. And I
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: think that's beautiful.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: You know what I love? I just think is so beautiful. Sorries, yes,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: are so beautiful. But I feel like that right, Like
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I can't wear that.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Like someone brought me back like one of those fully
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: like knee length shirts from India, uh huh, And I
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't know about walking down in the
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: West Village wearing this. I don't know how I feel
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: about that, but thank you for the gifts. Right, beautiful, But.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: It's like it's one of those things like I I
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: wonder if it's better for me to admire it on
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: someone else than to because I don't I really don't
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: want to be like a culture vulture, right, I don't
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: want to appropriate, but I love to look at these
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: are the things that you had that happened to you
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: when you sort of scroll mindlessly on the internet. But
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: like every now and then I'll fall upon like a
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Bollywood like an opening of something like a Bollywood award
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: show and beautiful and they're just these women are like beautiful.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: And on the veil is really cool.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: So pretty, and then I'm like, oh, I wish that
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I could and then immediately I'm like, you can't, and
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: that's okay. You can't and that's okay. You can appreciate
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: it from a far I can appreciate it from afar.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makeup is always correct.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Always always, always beat the mug down, always eye the face.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: I love.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: You need to send our makeup artists to India to
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: learn their ways, because sometimes I like, we've had makeup
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: artists on sets before where let's just say, painting Melissa's
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: face and then a middle aged, bald headed super pale.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Do you think you're middle aged?
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: And thirty seven? Is that middle aged? Can we get it?
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Can we get it?
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know. So I'm almost I'm almost fifty four.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like, okay, are we both
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: middle aged?
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: We can't be. I am too much older than you.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: The middle of blood age.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: I mean the other thing though, I would have to
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: live to be at least one hundred and something for
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: me to be middle aged.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: But my grandmother, true, your grandmother lived.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: My grandma would a long time, but I mean she
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: lived a long time. But I wonder if we're.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Doing it based off age of grandparents. My grandparents died
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: in their like forties, fifties and sixties, So like, yeah,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm an alder care now this is this is
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: hospice for me? Yeah, Like if we're doing it based
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: off that men, sure, Okay, I feel like forties is
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: middle aged.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: That's I mean that you are going to I mean
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I feel like middle age. We're thinking about living until.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Middle age is a state of mind. Okay, I think.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, don't you feel middle aged?
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Some days when I wake up in my hips heard
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: when I step out of bed and both hips crack
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: bang bang active shooter in my bedroom?
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Middle aged? When I come across like the Grammys or
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: the MTV Award are the same way is that person?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: They're like, Chicken bang bang is going to be doing
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: her opening number, and who is this? And they bring
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: out a seventeen year old in a pair of heels.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Who's Chicka bang banging? By the way, speaking of banging, sorry,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: you know what, I finally.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Watched what I said speaking of my back's blown out
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: in bed and I can't stand up. Let's talk about
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: the gay sex show Heated Rival.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: So here's here's what I feel like. Overall overall, it
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: was really good.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, Oh you've got a critique, be careful.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Here's the So my so, my friend Andrew Satizan is
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: obsessed with this show, and she was like, you got
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: to watch it. You gotta watch it, you gotta watch.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: And text me because I am. I'm deep in the
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: matrix on had Rival. Okay, I'm doing like scripture versus TV.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: I'm doing like that is not They're not staying true
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: to the text. Scott is actually a verse top and
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: we show him he doesn't even bottom once in the show.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: What does the Old Testament say? Like we have to
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: go back there?
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Are we read the books?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: All of them?
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Yes? Okay legal legal scholar. Sure you've you've hired like
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the actual law professor.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: So a few things. So, first of all, I lately
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I've been doing audio books more than actually reading books.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: I like that because you can go for a walk.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Correct, you could do launch, and you could do whatever.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: The problem with audible or any kind of audio book
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: is that if the actor or the reader is not good,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: then it ruins the experience. And I started to listen
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: to it and I could not with that voice.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: You have to get like an actual actor. Sometimes. Claire
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Danes narrated the Handmaid's Tale.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, I read that, yes, and no, not the Handmaid's Tale,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: the Testament. Did she also do the Handmaid's Tale?
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I think she did a book because I didn't listen
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: to the Testament.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: She didn't, Okay, I read, I listened to the test
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: work to.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: The TikTok comments on a video, I saw she did it,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: so I did, Yeah, she did, but she did.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: She did the Testament. And what was cool about the
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Testament was that it is several actors reading, so Lydia
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: was yeah, and I can't remember who else was in it,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: but Claire Danes was in it. It was so good.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know anything about and Dowd, but there is
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: this Twitter account called I think it's like hot and Out.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I forget what it's called. There's some sort of and
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: it's so good. I love.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: So here's my feeling about Heated Rivalry. Really good. I
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: enjoyed it thoroughly. I think what ends up happening? No, no, no, no,
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: hear me out. When other people have told you you
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: have to watch this show, it's the best show ever.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: So you go in it with these very high expectations,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: and I feel like it would have been better for
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: me had I gone in blind having said that that
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: is some good ship and the little guy who plays
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Ilia oh Connor story, Yes, that is the nicest ass.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I love us because Melissa. I love this wee because
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: this is exactly what the Internet was saying four weeks ago.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: I'm slow to it, I'm slow to it. I'm slow
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: to it, but I'm true to it like it is.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: And you know the other thing is that at certain points,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I'm watching this show and I am feeling very sad, right,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling so sad that there are still so many
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: people who feel obligated to not be your authentic self,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: which makes me so sad because I also feel like
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: when you are not yourself, you don't really show up
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: in the world the way that you want to. And
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I also think that that constant level of frustration is
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: also what can make you an asshole. Yes, right, because
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: you are just constantly not able to be yourself.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Number of deal guys that I hooked up with in
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: college hanging out of frat building windows, climbing down the
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: gutter is unbelievable. They're all DL They're all hiding how
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: the gay they are. They're all in the wrestling team
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: because they just want to touch a butt. It is actually,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: it's so real.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: So not to say that all wrestlers are gay balls,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: but a lot of especially people in sports, yeah, are
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of people are super sports fans.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Like sometimes like the dads that love football, sometimes I'm like,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: you're a little bit too invested in that man in spandex.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, not all, not all, not all, not all,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: but some and at least one, yea.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: One out of five football dads might be gay.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Secretly give I overfilled this water way too much. Every
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: single week we come to the studio. Immediately what happens.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I spill my water in the green room yep. And
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: then we come in here and I spill the water.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: It's a dry set, and I'm looking forward to.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: They're doing another installment right there. I mean I think, like.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I wonder if they're going to sort of bridgeton it.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, I think they are actually, yeah, because there
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of actors on that show that
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: got like two minutes of screen time and they really
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: did make it with like paper paper and like hot
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: glue guns and bubble gum wrappers. Yeah, because I was
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: watching a thing and it was the wardrobe person was
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: explaining how she pulled together the wardrobe and the stories
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: she told with all the outfits. The dress that Rose
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: wears at the club, it's like a shimmery dress that
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: she wears. It's a piece of fabric held together with
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: like paper, literally safety pin to this poor actress's body. Yeah,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: because the budget was like ten dollars, they made this
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: with nothing.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Totally stupid thing. But a million years ago, there was
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: a girl group called the Go Gos, right okay, And
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: when they were they I think it was like either
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: their first or their second album, and they had no money,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: no money for any for makeup, no money for clothing,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: and the album art is all of them in a towel.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Each of them are wearing a towel and they're all
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: wearing face masks because they had no money for makeup,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: they had no money for budget. And I remember watching
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: like a VH one behind the story where the person
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: their producer or whoever it was, was just like, I
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: have to return those to Macy's. Do not get any
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: help of face cream on it?
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: So I mean, yeah, I return stuff all the time. Same,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I love a good return. Yeah, brag got really mad
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: at me because on Saturday, a huge box arrived at
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: the house from I got a pair of boots for Christmas.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: And I remember the boots story, Yeah, and I didn't.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I just like I couldn't figure out what to return
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: them for. Yeah, the way, I exchanged them for a huge,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: oversized dog bed from this company that had like big
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: fluffy dog beds for the dog this Jack need. No,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: he doesn't need anything. He was raised in the wile,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: But doesn't Jack sleep with you every night?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah? He does. He has not put one little crusty
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: toenail on that fucking bed. Yeah, and doesn't plan to. No,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: he walks right past it and gets in bed with us. Yeah,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: or he just sleeps on the floor.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Same Arthur Weasley. You think he's in the bed
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: that I bought him, although I'll never admits right electric blanket,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: which he.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Like, Arthur Weasley has an electric blanket.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: I will not be judged by the likes of you.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Arthur Weasley had an electric blanket. And and when he
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: wants me to turn it on, he goes and he
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: stands over and he looks at me and he meows.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: And because I am his bitch, I go over quickly
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: and I turn it on, not.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Him training you.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: He just kind of like looks at me like he's.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Like, time is money, baby, and you got a New
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: York minute to turn the sucker on.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: It takes a minute to heat up totally other things.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: So I feel like people who are on the of
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: having kids are going to enjoy this story.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Right, Oh I'm sorry.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: So remember you. We were texting and I was like,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I'm exhausted.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: You watched your nephew.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: So my brother and sister in law went away for
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: about five days and they were like, can you and
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Andre watch the baby? Of course, no problem. Let me
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: tell you something, I am no longer the same person that.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: And he is actually an exceptionally good I'm sure.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's so cute.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: But like so speaking of like training me, he now,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: so he's like nine months old and he now has
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: realized that there's a camera in his in his bed,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: and he was now turning around and looking at us,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: and he's just like, TikTok, TikTok, motherfucker, come get me.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: He knows that when he looks at the camera someone.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Will he's looking. He was love it so much, but and.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I'm still figuring out the doorbell.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, Amari, love of my life is looking directly
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: into the camera and he's just like, let's stop playing
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: these games.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Like and follow share if you agree.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Absolutely had the best book. It is like nineteen and
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: a half pounds Thanksgiving Turkey ran me into the ground.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Did I send you the picture of Andre passed out? No, no,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: I'm going to send it.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: To send it to me. I want to see it.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Because he was like and Andre like had a kid and.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Raided the kid.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I feel that way when I even just like hanging
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: out with my friend's kids for a couple of hours
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: and they're there yea with Brad and I leave and
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: we're like an overdrive.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah it's a lot, I know, but it was. It
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: was a good time. But I feel like I was
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: saying this to all my friends and family who.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: My heart goes out to. Anyone with a child.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Cats off, man, God, that is a less and the
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: constant blowout.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yo, yo, that's not for me. Actually, you know what.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: I went to my friend's house and she has three kids. Okay, love,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: they're so fun. How to blast? Yeah, And she said
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: to me, she was like, yeah, my husband was was
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: was like, I just love how Michael and Brad show
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: up to our house. We have dinner, we hang out,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: and then they just like kind of they'll let us
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: know an hour before they come over that they're coming,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: and we're just gonna and they'll join us for dinner.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: They live like not too far from us. Yeah, and
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: then they and then we hang out, We do a puzzle,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: We have dinner, We order take out. They always bring
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: like a five. We always stop at Billy's Bakery and
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: bring dessert. And then they just like leave, yeah, And
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: and she was like yeah to her husband, she was like, yeah,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: they don't have kids, they can do that. They can
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: just like get in a tab and come up town
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and hang out with us for a couple of hours
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: and then leave.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: And it's the best. It's so much world.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so much fun.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Alleah.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: But she was like, yeah, honey, they don't have kids,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: they can do that. That is sweet, sweet freedom.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: A child free life.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, highly recommend it anyone thinking about having kids.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, think about that shit hard, but it's.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Forever, Okay, bt BTS for brief recess. Someone in our
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: studio I can't say who is expecting a child. It's
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: so this whole segment has been just them.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: I was just like, we're going to talk about something
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: that I think that you especially are going to follow.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't even piece together.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: He was like, Okay, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna and
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: we're gonna put it in the in the YouTube a
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: picture of Andre.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: But I stand by my statements.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Andre passed the fuck out.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: I'm falling asleep just thinking about it. You know what,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: let's take a break. I gotta take a step out
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: of this. And I don't want to make a cool
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: this is your algorithm is showing Melissa, what is happening
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: in your feet this week? What's the tea? What's the shade?
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: So I've been trying really hard to disengage from the
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: plastic surgery stuff because it's been like it's like fucking
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: it's like starting to fuck with me for real, right,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But I've gone to another place. I've got to darker,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: darker places. So are you familiar with this notion of
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: people being trans racial, meaning that.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: You you're like Chinese and black?
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: No? No, no, no, no no. No. Let's just say, for example.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I guess I shouldn't just start like wildly guess.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Because I do think that the term Transrachel can be
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: confusing because sometimes, when let's say, a white family adopts
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: a Chinese baby, they call that a transracial adoption. But
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: that's not what I'm talking what are you talking about?
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about people who, let's say, do you remember
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: that story about that woman, that white woman, Rachel Dozal.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Who trans Rachel Rachel Dolis. Well, people like that, right,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: who feel inside that.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: They're like inside like they were born one race like
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Rachel does all.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: I cannot get? Am I about to be canceled for
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: something I can't get?
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: So here's here's the thing, right, So I don't know
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: where I fell into this, but I started like really
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: like doing a deep dive. And then there's like this
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: black woman. There's this black woman who's doing the same thing.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: I forget her name, Donna something or another, who was
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: born an African American woman or at least a black woman,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: who has now gone through all the stages. She's bleached
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: her skin, she bleached her hair, she's got blue contact
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: lenses and is living her life as a white one.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Now here is my question, right, why I've been asking
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: myself this question, why why does this not sit well
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: with me? And I and I really can't pinpoint it
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: because if some if I were to find out that
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: somebody is a trans person.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: I know, I was just thinking, like.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: My feeling is good for you live your truth, be
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: who you're supposed to be.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I know, it's like an identity politics Sudok. He correct,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: because it's like if we are saying that people who
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: believe inside that they were born into the wrong thing, right,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: it's actually the same sort of correct logic kind of.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: But I was again so falling inside.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I can feel the trans people typing in the comments, and.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: You know, and I want to be both understanding and respectful.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like these are like siblings in my community.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I feel very confused and also conflicted by it, right,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: because I definitely feel like trans people are who they
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: say they are, right, end of story.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Frankly right, I feel like thirty years ago people were
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: having the same conversation about trans people. But like for me,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: like my gut reaction of like Rachel dolezol is actually
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: why that's razy?
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And I'm asking myself, right, why does that make me
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable?
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: And I don't have an answer, and this is not
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: meant to be disrespectful or dismissive of anybody of any community,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: but like it leaves me feeling like conflicted.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I'm just kind of like yeah, yeah, it
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: is actually like a Gordian nod, like okay, so what
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: is bothering me about this?
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: For me, I'm like, this is the same thing about
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: your best It's like a white person appropriating a fucking culture,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: right dolis All did to her political career. What like
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: that is a white person trying to take another culture? Right.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: It's the same with me sending you the sweater and
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: being like I want to wear the sweater.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Well, but the difference between you sending me a photo
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of this sweater and the same thing of me looking
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: at and admiring sorry, right, is like we're looking at this.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: I'm also understanding that like people are not clothing options, right,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: we understand that, right, thank you, But we're but we're
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: looking at these items and we're just like asking ourselves,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: is it okay if I wear this or no? Right?
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: Because again, you want to be respectful. I don't. This
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: is this feels different.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I guess I feel like Rachel dolezol is like the
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: wrong entree into this conversation, because like the notion that
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: someone feels like they are born another person period and
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: then wants to like live that authentic life whether you're
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: trans or transracial, transgender or transracial, I guess is like
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: those those are the same sort of conversation. Right to
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: say this, right, I can't find a way that we
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: would discuss it differently.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Right, nor can I.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: But which means then therefore I must I guess I
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: have to support this, right, So I don't.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm just do I just do I I
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: guess I need to learn more?
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Is like where I'm Yeah, and.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Again I've been I've been googling, I've been like really
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: looking into this.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: And I guess this is literally like day one. I've
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: literally never never heard of this except for Rachel dolls All,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: who is a punchline, like right, and so maybe that
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: is like, but.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: You know what, though, I will say I mean again,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: I there were a couple of things. There were so many.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: There were many, many things about her that that upset
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: me and bothered me personally. There was one story that
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: she told she was talking about her hair transition, right
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: and she was talking about her kitchen. Now, for white
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: people who don't know what that is, your kitchen is
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: the back part of your hair, and that's usually where
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: the texture of your hair is the coarsest, usually not always,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: but usually. And for this white woman who was born
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: with straight hair to be standing in her front and
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: standing in front of other people of color talking about
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: the difficulty of working through that.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Kitchen, wait, wait, wait, she's white pretending to be black.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Rachel Doze, Oh my god, sorry, I thought we're talking
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: about this person on TikTok.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no. Rich is rich And And I
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: remember when I was transitioning my hair, the hard time
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: that my family gave me, and like how I thought
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: I was And she was doing that, and I felt like,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: who are you to talk about to talk about this
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: thing because it didn't happen to you, right it, This
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: did not happen to you, and you are a culture vulture,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: right yeah, hmmm, do you see what I'm saying?
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Guess I'm I guess. The deviation in my mind is like, Okay,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: so we've got and I'm going to try and break
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: this down as like an analytical attorney. So we've got
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: the transgender conversation, right, which is like anyone who wants
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: to shift their gender identity, yes on wherever on the spectrum. Yes,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: live your truth.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I run into issue with transracial conversation. Yes, when it
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: is white becoming black or white becoming anything else.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: That is where I'm like a little bit held up
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: because I've been conditioned to say that is cultural appropriation
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: or like blackface, right, that's someone pretending to be another race, right, Okay, Right,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, or just like an
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: extreme version of right.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And I mean, but and there's this other woman whose
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: name I can't remember right now, but who, like I said,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: this black woman who is now living her life as
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: a white woman. Yeah, and I have so many feelings.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, I don't really know if
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I have anything to say about that, but like I'm
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: sure you do.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just have feelings about it, right, Like
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: what did something happen? Was there a message that you
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: heard that makes you hate yourself? But if somebody were
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: to talk to me about a transperson.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I would never think of So that's why I'm a
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: little hung up on correct. So okay, so like putting
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: my message out there to the world of what I
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: think about this. I think I need to learn more
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: because I don't think this is my Literally am finding
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: out about this live on the air. This is the
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: first time I've ever heard of this, except for Rachel Dollasow,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: which I highly judge and condemn what she did because
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: she just pretended to be black to get ahead in life.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: I think, So, is that what she did? I think
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that was how I read it.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: But does that but does she think that's what she did?
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Because it seemed to me that the other thing about
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: her was that she was She had stopped speaking to
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: her white family altogether. And if you were to look
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: at the work that she did, she she either worked
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: for or did something with the NAACP. She did good,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: good work for them.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: She's a president of the NAACP.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: For a chapter one chapters. Yeah. So, and she has
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: black children. I think she had children with an actual
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: black man and loves the culture according to her, right.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I don't do you see do you see?
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Do you see the trouble that I'm having?
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah? But if we do that, then, like Hilario Baldwin
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: is also correct, we have to be like we love
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: that she is pretending she can't pronounce cucumber.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Well okay, but but that I think, you know, when
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: she was how you say, like she did that ship? Yeah, yeah,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: that I feel like is is different. But why do
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Been in her life? I think in her mind she's
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: like living her life as a Spanish person because in Massachusetts,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: uh huh.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: It's so we are living in such strange and I
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: don't And again, I'm excited, I'm excited, and I'm genuinely
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: not making fun of anybody, No I am. I'm really
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: trying to understand and also trying to understand myself.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I know, because you and I have had these conversations
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: where it's like you're a very proud black Haitian woman
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: for sure, and we've talked a lot about like the
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: way black women truth their hair, what your hair journey's
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: den what that's been like for you, and like how
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: wrapped up in that whole sort of like sushi role
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: of emotions is sometimes like self loathing and internalized racism.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: So again I think that what the trouble that I've
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: been having is why does this not sit well with me?
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And I don't understand why that is.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I guess just like again, still hearing this first time,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: maybe it's that we've just really been conditioned to think
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: about it this way of like if you, or at
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: least for me, like a white liberal and a big city,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: I've been conditioned that when I hear person pretending to
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: be other race, we inhale and we get nervous. Right,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: someone someone putting that on is We're not supposed to
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: be cool with that, right, And I'm not saying I
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: still think we are not supposed to be cool with that,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: But it sounds like maybe this is like a special version.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Michael, I don't know.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: I mean I think because I do see a lot
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: of like connections to the transgender conversation. How do we
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: separate the.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: But I've done again, because I've been doing like this
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: dive on it, I've seen where transgendered people are like,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: don't compare that interesting?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: But but but again, but I think for you know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: as many trans people as there are, there are different
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: trans people who feel differently about their own journey. Right,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and again, I'm going to believe the person that I'm
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: talking to them and believe what the people are saying
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: about themselves, right, I don't know.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I am going to watch like a lot of breakdowns
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: of this on TikTok I will say that I am
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: deeply disappointed in you. Why for not sending it to
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: me sooner? Because I want to watch, you know, I
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: love staying up until four in the morning. I know,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: deep just doom scrolling, going down crazy rabbit holes. I
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: want to see that shit I'm watching. Meanwhile, I'm watching
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: ear hair removal videos at the Turkish barber shop. I
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: could be watching this and really learning and growing as
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: a person. How fucking dare you?
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Sorry? You know? Okay, Well, here's the silly thing that
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I've been watching it. I've also fallen into pedicure TikTok oh.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I don't want to see someone getting miss little, miss Piggy,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Miss roast Beef worked on. I don't want to see that.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Send me the identity politics. I want to get worked
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: up into a ladder.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I know. But serious, it's been like I'm like really
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: really very conflicted.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Well this is what but like I want to I
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: want to get into like that and like learn about
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: it because it really is a culture. It sounds like
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: someone's experienced that I'm not hearing about learning about, and
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I want to be on the forefront of that ship.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: I want to know because my whole feed, I mean mine,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: mine gets like really doom scrolly with like the news
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: and the headlines like I am. I've noticed, especially since
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: the ice attacks of Minneapolis, that I've become a part
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: of the conversation where I'm commenting on it. I'm also
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: a part of the echo chamber a little bit, and
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: my whole sort of algorithm has become very much ultraliberal
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: anti ice.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean same, is this weird thing that fell into.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: I also have like burkeing bags in Dubai and then
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: it's unboxing at burking bets. But now the Dubai bar
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: bag girlies are literally in fucking bunkers, yes, getting bombed. Yeah,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: I know, isn't that crazy. I was watching last night
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: and it was the Birken bag girl. She came up
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: and she was in a bunker with all her purses.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: She took her purses with her. Stop it, stop it.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: No she didn't. I mean, I'm not unless the purse
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: is in the the persons are in the bunker at
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: all times.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I will I can either confirm her deny that she
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: carried them down there. I have not. I did not
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: see her lug all the purses down there. But yeah, here,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: here's where we are in modern warfare.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, that bothers me. There are so many things to
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: go on the record about this. I can say that,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: like the sort of the world around you is coming
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: to an end, and your first course of accident is
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: save the bags.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Let's say I've been in I've been in near Missus
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: before where I'm like, like, you get in a car accident.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Or I was on a train once where there was
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: like I honestly don't even know what happened, like a
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: trans transistort transistor transistor like exploded or something, and there
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: was like smoke and a fire and there like there's
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: a big explosion on a train. And it was with
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: my college boyfriend. And I ran and I.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Left you left him.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Up, the little fuck herself up. I ran for her.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: But oh god, Jerry sein the Seinfeld where there's like
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: a fire and George and George is at a birthday
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: party and he pushes the kids out of the way.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy's so aboud. So we got
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: in a fight about it after you sure you love me?
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: We broke up soon last last. Yeah. Okay, well, I'm
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: really excited. I want to get into some of these headlines.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: But our guest is here and we've got an interesting
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: conversation today.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to talking to him.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Should I tease it a little bit afterwards? Okay, yeah,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: you don't have to whisper theirly, you could do it liter,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: she whispers directly into her fucking mike. All right, we'll
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: be right back. So welcome back to Brief Recess. I'm
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Michael Foot. We're going to be talking today about lethal injection.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Today we have just a light hearted conversation.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: Easy, greasy.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: We're here with Karina Barrett Lane. She's a professor of
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: law at the University of Richmond State Law, and she's
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: one of the nation's leading authorities on the death penalty.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: She's a former sergeant in the US military and the
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: author of the book Secrets of the Killing State, The
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Untold Story of Lethal injection. Please welcome Karina Lane. Thank you.
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: And you just finished a book tour.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: Right, A crazy book tour I did that was the
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, it was the adventure of a lifetime.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: So my sister and I shout out to Mandy. We
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: went in her van hashtag van life and she drove
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: every mile of this and it was thirteen thousand miles.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Wow we did.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we did fifty seven events in just under eighty days.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: How was the relationship at the end of EVM? I
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: feel either important questions to ask, Right, that's a question.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: You must have a sister to ask that question. A
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: little I have a younger brother.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: Okay, well, you know it was fantastic, but I do
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: have to say at the very very end, we ended
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: the tour in Oklahoma City and I had three events
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: in Oklahoma City and she's driving me to one of
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: the events and she said, you know, I didn't think
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: we were going to make it. I didn't think we
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: were going to act. And I was like, what do
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: you mean you didn't think we were going to make it?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Like what did?
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: What did you think was going to happen? And she said,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: I don't really know, but I didn't think i'd be
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: driving you at the end. I thought You're just.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Going to drop me off alongside the road or something,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: abandon you.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: But it was great, good, yeah, good, and people I
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: you know, after that experience, I just feel like there's
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: such a goodness in the world. And at the beginning,
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: I was pretty nervous because, you know, two women in
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: a van driving around the Deep South saying, let's not
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: kill people. What could go wrong?
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: But people were really kind and open minded, and I
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: found that so many people they just they didn't know.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: And almost every single one of those events turned into
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: a larger conversation about the death penalty. And I welcome
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: that here.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I was just going to say, like, they're
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: such a friendly, warm, bubbly, infectious person to pick such
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: like an intense topic. I think when we were talking
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: about having you on the show, I think you and
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I get similarly sort of categorized of like dealing with
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: a really crazy subject matter and still like being somewhat
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: of an optimistic person. I think it is like a
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: really unique, strange persona to have in the world. And
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: I just am just so curious what led you to
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: this topic, Like was there a catalyst for this in
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: your life? Because people ask me all the time, like
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: how did you get into immigration law? Like what was
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: that for you? From an immigrant family? And I just
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: want to hear like, I'm sure it wasn't a to B.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it was mercuous.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: And I have to say kudos to you because you know,
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: everything you say about me is really applies to you
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: ten times because you're seeing people like You're seeing actual
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: people right, Like you're you're a frontline provider, yeah, whereas
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: I'm a researcher. Now there is a story you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: behind that that I think it would be even harder
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: to see, you know, cruelty and brutality. Yeah, ye see
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: their face.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah we can a. I wouldn't have it any other way.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Be I'm like, who would I be if I didn't
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: do something? Like if I have the skills I have
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: and I'm able to help, who would I be? And
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: see I'm like, oh, yes, it's awful to be around this,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: but I can actually do something and I have like
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: the tools to do it. So it's kind of like
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: I've chosen a space where I actually have a lot
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: of agency, which is unusual. I think a lot of
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: people who are service providers they can help in like
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: one small way, but I'm like, oh, there's actual relief
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: here that I can seek. And the other avenue for
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: someone who is combative, angry, a loud mouth. I get
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: in a lot of fights. My desk at school was
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: in the hallway. I've got an older sister. We fought
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: like cats and dogs. The other pathway for me, aside
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: from the courtroom, was a problem was probably or the
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: drunk guy at the bar starting fights. So like it's like, oh,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: I actually like productive path for that. But yeah, that's
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: how I sort of categorize it in my mind. But
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: I'm still also like, yeah, sorry, we don't have to
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: talk about me.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: We brought it's so good.
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: Well, I will tell you I am a former prosecutor. Cool,
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: and I'm a legal historian, and so what brought me
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: to the death penalty in the first instance is I
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: was doing I did two legal history pieces on the
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: death penalty, and those were more about, you know, the
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: conditions under which the Supreme Court protects unpopular minorities. Right,
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: just remember sort of you know high school civics where
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: it's like, you know, the Supreme Court is this protector
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: of unpopular minorities from overreaching tyrannical majorities.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: And we don't we laugh at that now, but at
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: the time, I.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Was like, yeah, very much. Is how we came up.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no one's even saying it.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, I mean even when I was in law school,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: it was like, oh, the Supreme Court, like it's loosely
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: tied to politics and who's empower in the presidency and
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: maybe they sometimes wait to retire until there's a favorable
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: president in their political part.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: No, you can't say, I mean, it's it would be
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: flying in the face of what we're looking at, right,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: what was every day? That's right?
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: Well, I when I was doing the second death penalty piece,
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: I came across this case in Texas. It's a real case,
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: was from two thousand you might have heard of it,
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: the Birding case. And in that particular case, the lawyer
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: fell asleep during trial. It was a capital trial. And
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: I was so shocked because the lawyer didn't say, like,
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: I wasn't asleep, I was resting my eyes or it
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: was like really concentrating. The lawyer said, yeah, I fell asleep.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah it was.
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: During trial, but it wasn't an important part.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: Oh, And I remember being like, pretty sure, it's all
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: an important no matter what, but especially when your life
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: is at stake, and then you know what the court said,
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: So there's a little line I still my students read
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: it where the court said.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: The constitution says you're entitled to an attorney, it doesn't
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: say they have to be awake.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: And that was this moment where I just thought, you know,
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: good people on both sides of the aisle would look.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: At that and say, I thought, rageous, right, Like, I can't.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Be killing people if you have sleeping lawyers and drunk
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: lawyers and prosecutors hiding evidence. And so that was the
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: moment when I said, I need to look at this closer.
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: And so I've been researching and writing about the death
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: penalty for eighteen years now, and so that's like the
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: death penalty more generally. And then as for this book,
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: I didn't really so much as choose it as it
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: chose me. But I had a research question because that's
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: what we do. And my question was why are sates
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: so breathtakingly bad at executions by lethal injection? Like why
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: am I seeing three hour long executions and.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Two hour long exit?
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: And you've been to executions?
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: No I have not. I've not been asked, and I'm
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: actually quite thankful for that.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: But you.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Would try not to deal in hypotheticals. But what would
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: you do. I've thought about this a lot attitude.
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: I've thought about it a lot. I don't know, because
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: I have to tell you, just researching this and hearing
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: the media stories and now I know members of the media,
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: and I know capital defenders, and so I hear their
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: stories and I feel like I'm stretched as a researcher, like.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: This your boundary.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: I just I'm an EmPATH and knowing what I know,
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: just seeing it, even if it looked peaceful, I have
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: to tell you, the second drug is a paralytic. And
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: it's not just a paralytic. It's a muscle relaxing, so
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: it relaxes the muscles in your face, so it can
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: be a them that way.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: Right. So anyway, I had this question of you know,
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: I'm seeing autopsies with eighteen puncture wounds and people waking
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: up in the midst of their own execution, and I
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: just thought, you know, I don't understand. We know how
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: to put down our beloved pets. I know it's very clinical, yes,
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: but I'm a researcher, you know.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: And it was like, let's really get into that.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: We know how physician assistant suicide works, so why are
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: they so bad at this, Like, there's the whole death
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: penalty thing, and we could talk about that, but then there's.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: That's not what people is, not what that is today?
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, what has been the sort of like response to
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: that question in your research? Like, I mean, don't give
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: away the punch the heart of the book, but like,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: what well have you sort of found? Like was there
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: any discoveries that you made in your research?
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: Goodness?
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: What has the public sort of reach been?
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah? So, I mean the answer ended up as a book,
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: the entire book to answer it, and it's anywhere from
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: I thought there was science behind this thing. I really did.
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: I thought, surely someone didn't just make this up off
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: the top of their head. Someone literally made this up
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: off the top of their head. That actually happened.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: The specific way the means in which we execute people.
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so lethal injection came to be in nineteen seventy seven.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: And actually, just to contextualize it, it was really no
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: accident that it happened in seventy seven, because the Supreme
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: Court struck down the death penalty in seventy two, brought
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: it back in seventy six, and by nineteen seventy seven
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: the country had not seen an execution in ten years.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: So you had Gary Gilmore just do it. That's firing squad,
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: and everyone was like freaked out, and legislators around the
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: country said, we need to do something else. The country
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: hasn't seen an execution. They're going to be super squeamish
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: about the electric chair gasing people. And a federal court
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: had found a First Amendment right to televise executions at
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: the time. Now it wouldn't last, but nobody could have
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: known that. And so you had legislators talking about, we
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: can't have an electrocution in someone's living room. Yes, right,
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: And so it was this big push of okay, well
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: what about death by drugs? And that would look nicer
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: speaking of the pets. And in Oklahoma, the legislators are
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: active asking their their doctors, their personal doctors, the state
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: medical association. Nobody wanted to play, and so they turned
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: to the state medical examiner, the coroner. This guy named yeah,
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: this guy named Jay Chapman. He was a doctor, but
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: he referred to himself as an expert in dead bodies,
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: but not in how to get them that way.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Oh god, Yeah, this.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Is one of those This is one of those things
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: where it is just kind of like an absolute clusterfuck,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: and then it creates legal precedent, and then we still
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: have it today because no one can get rid of it.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: It's such a cluster Oh my god. And so they said,
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: well you help, and he said sure, and he literally
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: just like made it up. And I found an interview
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: of him later and they said, well, how did you
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: come up with the three drugs because not a single
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: one of them is what we used for pets, Like,
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: where did you even get that? And he literally said,
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't do any research. Oh okay, he said, I
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: just thought about what might be useful, okay. And that's
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: the protocol that we use for the first thirty five
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: years of lethal injection.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: And are we still using that today.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: The first drug it isn't made anymore. That was sodium theopental,
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: and states have replaced that for drug with even worse drugs.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: So some states are using the three drug protocol, some
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: drig some states are using a one drug protocol.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: So let me ask you this, Right, you know, if
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: we and again understand I mean that people and animals
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: are not the same, right, but if we do know
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: how to put down a cat, a dog, a horse, whatever.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: And I've been in the room when I've had to
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: put down a pad and it does it does come
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: across as a very peaceful. They just sort of like
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: drift off to sleep and it's and it's over pretty quickly. Yes,
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: why are we not using those same methods to execute people?
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: It's a great question. Yeah, So some states are still
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: using a three drig protocol. That is how strong the
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: allure of a paralytic is something that like it's a
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: get out of jail free card, right, whatever's going on
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: underneath there, it's going to look peaceful. So some states
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: are like, love that not leave matter. Some states, though,
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: I have turned to the one drug pentobarbitol, which is
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: what we use on pets. That's also what we use
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: for physician assistant suicide. And so one might say, okay,
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: then why is everything wrong? And part of the reason
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: for that is that it's actually not the same drugs.
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: So drug manufacturers have put contractual agreements and tracking mechanisms
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: on their drugs. They don't want their drugs ind for this.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: The pr on that, oh, it's so bad, it's so bad.
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: Like I always think of Pfizer, whose motto is life
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: is Our life's work. Yeah, right, and all of the
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: others too. But and so what's happened is the states
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: have to go to these compounding pharmacies and they're getting
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: a compounded version of the drug. Well, these are little
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: mom and pop shops and compounding a sterile injectable, they
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: are not set up for that at all. In fact,
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: compounding sterile injectables is literally called high risk compounding. That's
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: the industry term for it because it's a mess. And
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: so you've got that whole issue and we haven't even
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: really talked about what compounding pharmacies are willing to do
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: this and it's all for cash.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I was under the table.
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: And then also here's another one, like in the animal
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: euthanasia context, you're using veterinarians that are trained. Do you
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: know who is pushing the drugs?
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, I can't imagine a medical provider.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: They've taken a hippocratic oak. Correct is going to be
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: issuing these? Is it like the warden? Is it? No,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: it's an officer.
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: Non medical prison guards.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say.
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: And they're they're not doing like they're doing it from
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: another room, from this little anti chamber through seven feet
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: of tubing. So in the animal euthanasia context, it's bedside correct, right,
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: so you can watch, Yes, it's not it's through seven
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: feet of tubing. And if you ask them, which they
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: have been asked, how do you know how fast to
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: push the plunger because if you push it too fast,
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: you're gonna blow the vein. All of these bad things happen,
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: And they say we do it by feel. In the medical.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Profession, I don't know.
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there is no feel right feed of two being.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we see these headlines all the time of
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: this state couldn't fulfill an execution because they were unable
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: to source the drug, or they ran out of the drug,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: or no one could make it. Like, we see those
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: headlines all the time. And I know that your book
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: really focuses on the ways in which states are moving
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: away from capital punishment, right, that there is a decline
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: in jurors, in judges who are.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Convicting, and you feel like people don't have the appetite
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: for it.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: That it's maybe less. So there's a recent headline about
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Luigi Mangioni trial just this week where he is no
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: longer the judge has ruled that he is not going
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: to qualify for capital punishment. I just think it's it's
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: an interesting time where, right, the ways in which the
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: means in which the execution is being provided I guess
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: done performed is at odds with sort of where we
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: where it came from, where this started, right, and the
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: modern day appetite for it. I know, as like you said,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: a provider in the judiciary, how wrong we are, how
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: many flaws there are in a criminal trial, in a judgment,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: in a ruling, in that appeal, in the lawyer, in whatever,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: how many opportunities there are for error? And that's with
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: people's lives at stake, and in a capital punishment trial
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: where there are charges where someone could be charged with
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: capital punishment, that is literally what is being litigated on
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: that day. So what do we do? We're all at
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: odds with this subject, right, I mean, and then we're
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: also thinking about justice for the victims of whoever this
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: person comitted a crime, right, Like it really is an
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: ethical ball of wax. And how do we, in like
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: a twenty first century context, put the piece this all together?
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Like have you just personally we don't even have to
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: talk about your book, but like you as a person
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: driver around the country with your sister talking about this,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: like so awesome hearing from these many communities in the
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: South that still perform executions, Like what do we fucking
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: do with this? I've just like left with more questions
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: than answer.
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: Sometimes you've packed a lot into No, it's so good,
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: you're just like my brain.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: But like, let's just like talk about it.
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: Let's talk about it. So I think one thing that
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: one piece of information that people don't really understand is
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: this error rate and actual innocence. And that's something that
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: we can all get behind, as in, we shouldn't be
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: executing innocent people. I don't really know of any actually
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: Scalia once said this is a cost of doing business.
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: So I am aside, but most people would say that's
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: absolutely unacceptable. And so one of the things to think
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: about is that we've executed slightly more than sixteen hundred
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: people in the modern era. So since yeah, since nineteen
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: seventy six, slightly over sixteen hundred, sixteen and maybe sixteen
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: forty something like that. And in that period of time,
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: we've had slightly more than two hundred exonerations. I was
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: going to say, so, And so when you think about
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: that picture for every eight people that we kill. And
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: you know, I call it secrets of the Killing State
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: because we are killing and the autopsy actually says homicide
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: for cause of death.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: Wow does it? It?
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: Sure does? This is killing. We just like to use
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: these nice, pretty words. But you know, for every eight
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: people we kill, there's one person that the state says, oh, sorry,
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: we got that way with that. You know, that is
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: an incredible statistic, eight to one. And the National Academy
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: of Sciences came out and was looking at death row
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: and all of the errors, and they did the super
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: fancy regression analysis that was you know, peer reviewed at
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: the highest levels, and they said, a conservative estimate is
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: four percent of the people on death row right now
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: are factually innocent. That's one in every twenty five, you know.
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: And part of the problem, of course, is that we're
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: you know, they're all saying it's me right, and so like,
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: this is a difficult problem. But just knowing that and
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: then the other piece, which goes into the victims side
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: that you were talking about, is, aside from actual innocence,
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: there's this error rate. And the error rate nationally is
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: between I mean, it's between fifty and seventy percent of
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: all death sentences are overturned on appeal Indiana is seventy percent,
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: oh my gosh, seven out of dead. But even the
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: lower is fifty percent. And the top two reasons are
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: grossly ineffective assistance of counsel and prosecutorial misconduct.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Wow. And so those violation.
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: Greaty violations up the wazoo. And so you know, those
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: are again, those are things that I think, you know,
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: good people on both sides of the aisle would say, well,
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: we can't, right, we can't be doing that. And the
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: thing is, it takes a long time to find those
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: errors because those eyes, you know, are off record errors
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: or you're not going to find those in the transcript.
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: You have to look behind.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: I also think a lot of a lot of people
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: are out of sight, out of mind, right, absolutely, people
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: who are on death row, out of sight, out of mind.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: They are incarcerated. And from the perspective of a state legislator,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: that's someone who murdered someone and is a bad person
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: and therefore it's not worthy of my time attention. Energy.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So tell us what the Brady Brady violation.
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: Let's talk, Yes, yes, So Brady violation is when a
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: prosecutor hides or doesn't disclose evidence that is favorable to
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: the defense and material as in there's a reasonable probability
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: that it would have made a difference. So this is
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: not again, this is not misplaced paper clips. This is
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: stuff that it's not like.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: A detail about the victim's hair color. It's like serious
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: exonerating evidence that prosecutors have intentionally withheld.
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: Absolutely right, you know. And we had one of these
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: cases that went up to the Supreme Court this year,
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: well last year, twenty twenty five. So this guy was
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: Richard Glossop and I talked about him in the book
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: because he had a lethal injection challenge. But bottom line
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: is he was convicted of capital murder. He was never
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: the killer. It was always this co defendant named Sneed.
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: And it was a terrible I mean, all murders are terrible,
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: but you know, this was a bludgeoning to death of
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: a hotel manager and Sneed did it. The Commonwealth never
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: said anybody but Sneed did it. They never said Glossop
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: did it. But Sneed said, Gossip paid me to do it. Okay,
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: So the prosecution goes to Glossop and says, we'll give
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: you life without parole if you'll testify against him, we'll
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: go for death for him. Glossop said, I had nothing
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: to do with this, so I'm not taking that. Then
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: they go to Snead and say we'll give you life
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: without parole if you'll testify against Glossops. Need says, you
• 58:10
  Speaker 4: got it. Glossop goes to trial, he gets convicted, He
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: gets sentenced to death. First trial gets overturned ineffective assistance
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: of council. He's been maintaining his innocence, and you know,
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: he would have been executed after the Supreme Court greenlighted,
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: you know, the lethal injection protocol, except Oklahoma injected the
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: wrong drug into the guy before him, and then they
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: tried to cover that up. And so can you believe this?
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: Michael the warden, the director, the people from the AG's office,
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: they get called before a grand jury, they get investigated.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: Right, this is.
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: Crazy town that you have the you know.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: People from president that are warden.
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So he's just waiting. Meanwhile, he's like, I'm innocent,
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: I'm innocent, I'm innocent. Finally, some people hire a law
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: firm finally to say like, can you please look into
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: this itself? You know, we're going, well, that's what a
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: court should do. But okay, fine, they do an investigation
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: and they come out and say there's no way, like
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: there's serious, serious problems with this. Also, the prosecutor buried evidence.
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: So when this comes out, the state I don't know,
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: reluctantly hands over seven boxes of material that shows they
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: they solicited perjury. There's emails saying, you know, there's some
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: problems with this testimony. We need to get to him before.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: He takes these serious crimes. Did my job wrong? And
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: that our yea, these are prosecutors facing jail time for
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: these crimes.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: And you know, when all of this comes out, the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: Attorney General of the State of Oklahoma confesses error constitutional
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: error before the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals, and the
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: Court of Criminal Peals says, sorry, you missed the deadline
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: habeas procedural default. There's nothing we can do.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: Goes up to the Supreme Court and they.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Love doing They love doing that, by the way. They
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: love just hitting with like, you know, oh, the deadline. Sorry,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: it's you know what I They don't even think look
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: discuss the subject of the case. It's oh, they look
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: at the first sheet. Deadlines past, you're.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: Out of here and he's actually innocent.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, can we sorry, can we just explain to
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: everybody what habeas is?
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, yes.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: So there's trials and there's the direct appeals that you have,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: and then after that there's this system of habeas corpus.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: There's a state habeas, there's federal habeas. But the bottom
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: line is, at that point, it's essentially a civil suit, okay,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: that you are suing the warden for wrongfully holding you.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Okay. So, and it's just a way.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: This is something that's actually interesting come up recently in
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: the bond proceedings and immigration court because under certain laws,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: through the Trump administration and through a few federal decisions,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: basically many migrants are being held without bond or parole
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: options for extended periods of time. So, and these are
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: the headlines you see out of Dilly, Texas children children. Yeah,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: And so it's the same habeas claims are being invoked
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: by these migrants and their attorneys in federal court. Habeas
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: corpus claims for people who are not being afforded bond opportunities,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: as migrants held in detention, because you're supposed to get
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: a day in court, you're supposed to go in front
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: of a judge say hey, I'm here on asylum. I
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: should be released on But the new Trump administration laws
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: are sort of still getting worked out through the court system,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: and as a sort of band aid to that, lawyers
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: are now submitting habeas claims. So that's sort of how
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: it's hit in my world.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, so let's uplift. Let me let me ask you this.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: So for the average person, Yeah, why is this important?
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Why should we care about this? Because especially because I
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: can imagine, I can imagine that there are people who
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: were saying for the folks who are guilty, who have
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: committed some heinous crime, and there is a family who
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: is missing a loved one or several loved ones. Who cares? Yeah?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: Right, I mean such a fair quest.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: Who cares? Because you know, when they were murdering my whatever,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: they didn't care about that. Why should I care about
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: that person and what their death looks like?
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean that's such a fair question. And I
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: have to say, as a former prosecutor, Yeah, I was
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: going to ask. I think about the victims family all
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: the time. I think about them all the time. And interestingly,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: I met a number of people on this book tour
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: who were surviving family members of slain victims, and one
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: of the things that they said, and then I need
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: to answer your question, but you know, one of the
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: things that they said was, you know, we're told this
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: is going to give us closure, and it's actually the
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: opposite of closure.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: I can see that.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: We're waiting twenty thirty years. Mississippi executed a guy this
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 4: summer on death row for fifty years. Yeah, you know,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 4: and they've been strung along this whole time. So but
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: to your question, you know, one thing I would say
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: is people always talk about, well, they deserved it. They
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: deserved it, So why do I care? And I think
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: it's important to remember that, you know, one question is
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: whether the person deserves death. That's only one half of
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: the asia. And the other half of the equation is
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: did the state do what it needs to do to
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: take that to deserve to take that life? Right, Like,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: you can't just grab people you deserve it, and so
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: like there are things that the state has to do.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: And so really this book is about is about that question.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: And I always think, you know, the untold story of
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: lethal injection is really a story about all of the
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: ways that the state cannot be trusted to take life
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: and all of the ways they have covered it up.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: But you know, there's a whole other question and this
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 4: is slightly different. But I think in there of like
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: why should we care how they die? Right because they
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: might have tortured someone? And to that, I always think,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: you know, well, why don't we rape rapists?
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: And I'm not saying like why don't mean lets no no.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, right no, But I kept thinking when
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: you were talking an eye for an eye? Is that is? That?
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Is it? And like I am posing that question, Like
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: I I have like a very unique opinion on this
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: of I see all the errors that happen in court,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: and I'm like with that, I don't think we should
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: be adjudicating people's lives because I see all the errors,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: so knowing that it's one in eight are exonerated, so
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: for me, I'm like, if there's even a one percent chance,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: that's still too much. That is my opinion. But I
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: think it's like a conversation people need to have with themselves,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: right because when you were talking about like family members
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: coming to your book tourm being like I didn't get
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: the closure. I thought I wanted. I my first thought
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: was like you know, and I'm a narcissist, so like
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: we're always like, this isn't what I would This is
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: how I would think about it, And it's like, hey,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: would that be the closure that I want or need?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: But also like who does that make me right? Who
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: do I want to be right? Is it? Would it?
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: And I'm putting myself in someone else's shoes And I've
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: never been in this situation before, but I'm like, if
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: I were this hawk who wanted an execution for a
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: loved one who was murdered, would that be the closure
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: I want? What does that say about me? And is
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: there a story of forgiveness here? Like I can't put
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: myself in these shoes? And like when you were talking
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: about your book, I was like the one word I
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: kept think about was accountability and of the state. Yeah,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: how do we hold the state accountable? And that's a
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: lot of what I do as a defense attorney is
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: like a lot of the time I know my client
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: did it, and all the evidence says that my job
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: is to stand there and just make sure the constitutional
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: rights aren't violated and that the state is doing what
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: they're supposed to do and we're gonna we'll go down swinging.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: But you're going down usually right if it's if it's
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: a foregone conclusion, it's over. I'm there to make sure
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: your Eighth Amendment violation, your Fifth Amendment, your Fourth Amendment
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: first second. Like that is my that's my gig. It's
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: not about what you see on TV, me pulling a
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: rabbit out of a hat, getting this person off with
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: like a loophole and they're running down the street and
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: they're getting it, and it's it's not about that. It's
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: about accountability, and I think people don't understand that right,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: police accountability, prosecute, prosecutorial, and now state when it comes
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: to lethal injection. So that is my sort of explosion
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: rant about this.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: No, but you know, I think it's so important to
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: recognize too that family surviving family members, they're gonna it's
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: I think it's totally understandable and natural to say I
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: want this person.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: Like you, I'll do it myself.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: Yes, that's why we don't have family members prosecuting people.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: That's why we have what we call independent prosecutors. Because
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: what you want, it's not wrong, it's just not necessarily
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: what's good for society? Right, But you know, to your
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: question Melissa of like, what if they did torture? And
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: I go back to, well, why don't we rape rapists?
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: Why don't we burn down arsenous homes? And it's not
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: because they don't deserve it in some talionic eye for
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: an eye way, it's because we're a civilized society and
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: we actually we could get even with them if we
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: did that, but we can't stoop that low. They're the
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: bad guys, so my definition, they can't be the standard
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: for how a civilized society should treat the worst of
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: rights members.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't undo the thing that happened right at
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: the end of the day. Unfortunately, whether this person is
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: put to death or not, your loved one is gone
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, your house has been
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: burnt down, right, and doing those things doesn't undo what
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: the heinous act that happened to your family, to your friends,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: to your family. And again to your point, I think
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: it maybe trying to remove yourself a little bit and
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: look at what it says about society at large.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. So do you want to plug
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: your book really quick? You can get it anywhere you
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: get books straight to camera. This is your camera right here.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: Let's here. We'll give you a copy.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: Give a quick plug of the book. Your van's waiting outside.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: You have to go.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: This is the book.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: You should read it. I think every person should know
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: what the state is doing in their name.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's true. We should.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: It's funded with your money. It's your tax dollars.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 4: And you know it's not just about torturous executions and
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: made up science. It's also about smuggling drugs across the border. Yes,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: I'm taking fifteen thousand dollars in cash, putting it in
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 4: a suitcase.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, well I told you don't use my name, but you.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 4: Know some of this stuff, I mean, it's criminal.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: And I'll be a quote for the next book.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: Okay, sounds good.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: Is a great conversation.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you. We'll be right back with Tales from the DMS.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to brief. Re says, this is Tales from
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: the DAMS. We're going to talk about all the crazy, filthy, nasty, wild, wicked,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: sloody things you send us straight to my DM.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: You are very excited about that.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: I know when I get the little view photo message
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: from someone on Instagram like.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: I love a good salacious comment.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: We've gotten crazy comment. We've got some awesome comments on
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: our podcast. I thought it would be fun. Every episode
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: we're going to read a comment from Apple or Spotify
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: or YouTube on tales from the Damns. We're going to
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: start adding that, and so add your comments to the show,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: review the show, show and Melissa's going to read them.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: Go for it. Gives give us a good one. I
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: have not heard any of.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: These so from the Millennial Failure. Love that. This is
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: what the Millennial Failure says, your honor. This podcast is
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: critically underwatched on YouTube. These are highly intelligent, hilarious, engaging,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: and incredibly attractive host. If you're not watching, you're missing out. Wow,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: thank you the Millennial soone.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: My husband incredibly attractive. I didn't need it to just
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: be like a compliment past, but I'll take it. Oh, well,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: what I'll take it.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: I will take that every time. From one from Do
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: Another one from episode one twelve, Don Lemon Slash Epstein
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: from at Karen twenty seven point thirty. Karen says, I
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: also had a nun teach us sex.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Wait a good one. Everyone talking about Action Park. Do
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: you remember that episode. Of course, that was the one
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: people were coming up to me in the club drink
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: in hand. I was at Action Park. This comment, the
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: comment is from disabled Danny ninety six.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, by the way, shout out to disabled Danny ninety six,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: who comments on everything on YouTube.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: Get in my actual dance Dan. He says, everyone that
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: designed the slides were on cocaine. It was the eighties.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: It was the eighties.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: Action Park. Okay, CJ rolled the clip. We've got the
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: tail from the dam. We got to question. Someone called
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: in with a question for us, just a.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: Quick question, like what advice would you give to somebody
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: who's interested, like very basically interested in immigration law, but
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily have the time to commit to pursuing a
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: full degree. I seem to be stuck in a place
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: that wants to do more.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: I get this question a lot about how non lawyers
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: can get involved. They want to go to law school,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: they don't have time. My answer is always find the
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: nonprofit in your area that's doing this work, because the
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: nonprofits really are the backbone. This person. I did a
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: little research. I think they're from the Bay Area, and
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: I found a few nonprofits that I know there Immigration
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: Institute of the Bay Area is a great one. They
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: are service providers. So is Larraza and that is a
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: San Francisco Mission District legacy organization. So wherever you are,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: and even if you're not in the Bay Area, there's
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: usually a nearby nonprofit doing that work. And you know
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: your skill set better than I do. So if you're
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: really good at communications, are you're really good at social media,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: or you're really good at writing, like talk to the nonprofit.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: Maybe there's a job there, Maybe there's volunteer hours there
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: where you can get involved and do that work with
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: your specific skill set. I say it all the time.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: So many people support my work and just for me
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: to get to the courtroom had to be the translator, right,
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: someone is the stenographer, someone is the researcher. Like, there's
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: so many people behind me and the work. And then
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: I get all the credit.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: And we're going to put the links to the nonprofits
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: that Michael mentioned in our show notes that you have.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: Access to it. I'll give this to CJ right now.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: And everybody, Like I always say, while Michael is a lawyer,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: he's not your lawyer.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: You hire me.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: You said that really in a really gross.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: Way unless you, oh, I said, I did say it
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: like a lady of the night.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: Why is it a lady of the night that you
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: hire me? It could be a person of the night.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: It's true. I've been of the night. Thank you for
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: watching Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foot, I am Melissa malbranch
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: I'll see you in court, not me. I'll see you
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: in the streets, probably king a car. This has been
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: an exactly right production recorded at iHeart Studio, posted by
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: me Michael Foot and.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: Me Melissa Albrant. Our producer is CJ. Ferroni.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: This episode was edited by Nicholas Galucci.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: is Patrick Cootner.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Tom Brifogel with artwork
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: from Charlotte Delarue Manessa Lilac with photography by Brad Obono.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia hart
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: Stark and Danielle Kramer.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: Department or on TikTok at Michael Foot.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Albrant
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: got legal questions.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: Reach out at brief Recess at exactlyrightmedia dot com. Listen
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: to brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and of course we're a
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: podcasts with video. Search for brief Recess on YouTube