Latest / NO FILTER / 14 members of religious group convicted in 8-year-old_s death(MP3_160K)

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14 members of religious group convicted in 8-year-old_s death(MP3_160K) · NO FILTER

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: A word of warning. This podcast explores graphic and disturbing
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: stories and includes some strong language. It therefore may not
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who
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  Speaker 1: may find it disturbing. Hello and welcome to True Crime News,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the podcast covering high profile and under the radar cases
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: from across the country. Every week. I'm your host, Ana Garcia,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: our case this week. She was dying for four days,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: and at the age of eight, she had known much suffering.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: The little girl's death was entirely preventable. Her parents and
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  Speaker 1: the adults around her intentionally withheld her insulin. She was diabetic,
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  Speaker 1: went into a coma and died. It was God's will,
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  Speaker 1: the parents said, who were and still are, members of
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  Speaker 1: a fringe religious group. The group doesn't believe in medicine,
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  Speaker 1: and to this day, her parents and the other members
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  Speaker 1: of the cult believe that they did the right thing.
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  Speaker 1: The police disa agreed and charged fourteen members with her murder.
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  Speaker 1: The verdict is in and the court says they all
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  Speaker 1: had a hand in her death. We're recording this on Friday,
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  Speaker 1: December fifth, of twenty twenty five. Our guest today is
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  Speaker 1: rich McHale, a former police sergeant from South Jersey, a
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  Speaker 1: law enforcement expert and an author. Rich is also a
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  Speaker 1: dear friend of the show. Hey Rich, how.
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  Speaker 2: Are you good? Afternoon? Anna? How are you?
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  Speaker 1: It's great to see you, Welcome back. It's always a pleasure.
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  Speaker 1: We love you because you are unfiltered.
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  Speaker 2: Likewise, and it's an honor to be on the show
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  Speaker 2: with you today.
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  Speaker 1: Well, Rich, this is a case that we covered previously
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  Speaker 1: on the podcast, when prosecutors in Australia made this bold,
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  Speaker 1: bold move to charge fourteen people with murder. I was
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  Speaker 1: so honestly impressed with how aggressively they fought for justice
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  Speaker 1: for this little girl and went outside the box. And
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  Speaker 1: we had been waiting for this case to resolve, and
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  Speaker 1: it's something we've wanted to talk about, and I just
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  Speaker 1: there's never going to be justice here, right, Rich, There's
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  Speaker 1: never going to be enough justice, And we're not justice now,
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  Speaker 1: no right, because we've lost a little girl unnecessarily and
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  Speaker 1: her life was so horrible those last few days.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know the general background of law in Australia,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's a conservative or they lean to the liberal
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  Speaker 2: side as far as punishment goes, but I was glad
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  Speaker 2: to see that some justice did come out of this case.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and again it's a very unusual case because you know,
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  Speaker 1: generally you hold the parents accountable for the withholding of medicine,
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  Speaker 1: which is honestly a form of abuse that in this
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  Speaker 1: point led in this case led to the little girl's death.
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  Speaker 1: But to go so far as to say every single
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  Speaker 1: member of this cult in that house at the time,
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  Speaker 1: who agreed and stood by and did not intervene, was
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  Speaker 1: responsible for her death.
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  Speaker 2: Well to that point, it's amazing how from the top
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  Speaker 2: down they fell in line at some point, even the
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  Speaker 2: father of this girl and just totally dropped his beliefs,
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  Speaker 2: outside beliefs and locked himself into the rules, if you will,
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  Speaker 2: of this sect. And it's very disturbing that what we
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  Speaker 2: would think is somebody with a decent level of common
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  Speaker 2: sense and intelligence to take care of another human being,
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  Speaker 2: especially your own child, converts to a religion or belief
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  Speaker 2: that ultimately kills your own child. That as a parent,
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  Speaker 2: as a former police officer, is not easy to take
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  Speaker 2: at all, as I'm sure it obviously upsets.
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  Speaker 1: You, oh very much so, especially since police found the
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  Speaker 1: insulin in a cupboard. The insulin was there, it was
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  Speaker 1: inside the house, it was available at any point, and
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  Speaker 1: they did nothing. They did nothing while she died a life,
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  Speaker 1: a death that was so horrible. Can you imagine, Oh
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  Speaker 1: my gosh, and only eight years old what they did instead.
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  Speaker 1: And they told police this. They had no problem saying this.
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  Speaker 1: When police finally arrived a day later that they had
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  Speaker 1: prayed for her, they sang for her, wait a minute,
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  Speaker 1: and this was for me the final straw. Because this
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  Speaker 1: is on the police cameras. They actually said to the police, Oh,
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  Speaker 1: she's not really dead, she's asleep and God's going to
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  Speaker 1: resurrect her.
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  Speaker 2: Really and asking about her pain, the cult leader was saying,
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  Speaker 2: she's dead, she has no pain. Like just ridiculous thoughts
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  Speaker 2: and interpretations of he how we should treat other human
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  Speaker 2: beings unbelievable.
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  Speaker 1: Well, this case is out of Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia. The
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  Speaker 1: victim here is a sweet, innocent child, eight year old
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  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Strews. She had type one diabetes which could have
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  Speaker 1: been controlled with insulin, but her parents were against medicine
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  Speaker 1: and they were against doctors. In fact, both her parents
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  Speaker 1: had been in trouble previously with the law for withholding
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  Speaker 1: medical care. Both of them got into trouble. You think
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  Speaker 1: they would have learned from this. No, instead, they double down.
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  Speaker 1: They double down on this insane religion. Her parents, fifty
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  Speaker 1: three year old Jason Strews and forty nine year old
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  Speaker 1: Carrie Strews that would be her mother, watched their child
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  Speaker 1: die a torturous death. Over four days. They sang to her,
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  Speaker 1: they prayed for her with fellow cult members. The fourteen
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  Speaker 1: people charged with murder refused to be represented by attorneys
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  Speaker 1: by the time they were arrested and this went to court.
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  Speaker 1: Here's the part that's insane. So they refuse attorneys. It
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  Speaker 1: became a spectacle in the courtroom. Then they decided they
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  Speaker 1: were going to represent themselves. One cult member actually cross
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  Speaker 1: examined another cult member that was his mother. Then they
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  Speaker 1: would like wave to each other when they would see
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  Speaker 1: each other in the courtroom and they would get excited.
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  Speaker 1: And while they were being held in detention, and you
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  Speaker 1: could think maybe they would have what we would call
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  Speaker 1: it come to Jesus moment. No, no, no, no no.
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  Speaker 1: Instead they were trying to convert people to this religion
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  Speaker 1: of like fourteen people, that's how many people are in
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  Speaker 1: this crazy cult.
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  Speaker 2: And not to get off subject, but one. As I
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  Speaker 2: read this story and the fact that fourteen people were
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  Speaker 2: not only involved but ultimately convicted, it reminded me of
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  Speaker 2: Jim Jones and Guyana where he got all those people
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  Speaker 2: to drink the juice and knowingly that they were going
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  Speaker 2: to take their own How do you get there were
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: several hundred people. So I want to stay on your case,
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  Speaker 2: but it reminded it took me back to nineteen seventy
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  Speaker 2: on nine ish when that occurred. But immediately it drew
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  Speaker 2: me back to how one person, one leader, could get
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  Speaker 2: so many people to follow in what is a very
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  Speaker 2: abnormal way of thinking of living. Really, yeah, that's a
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  Speaker 2: way of life for them.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, these people are brainwashed and how they become
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  Speaker 1: so susceptible that would be chapters and chapters of a podcast.
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  Speaker 1: So the other thing here is we're in the murder
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  Speaker 1: in the middle of a murder trial, right And in
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  Speaker 1: the middle of all this they start arguing, this isn't
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  Speaker 1: a murder case, this is religious persecution. No, no, no, no, no,
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  Speaker 1: this is a murder case. And I am so grateful
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  Speaker 1: to the judge for trying to keep the decorum and
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  Speaker 1: reminding everyone this is a murder case. Now it was
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  Speaker 1: handled by a judge rather than a jury. Everyone seemed
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  Speaker 1: to understand that this was a very complicated case with
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  Speaker 1: late where you know, arguments of religious freedom could be made.
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  Speaker 1: Plus you had an unruly fourteen defendants, you know.
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  Speaker 2: And that's for the defendants to decide if they want
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  Speaker 2: a judge or a jury. So I know you said
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  Speaker 2: it was better a judge handle that, which is true.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe Australia is different, but it would have been the
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  Speaker 2: defendant that chose a jury trial versus a judge.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, And I don't know the technicalities in Australia, whether
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  Speaker 1: you have the choice or if the system makes the choice,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, but I agree with you it was
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  Speaker 1: best to be handled by a judge. I have a
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  Speaker 1: feeling the jury actually would have come down with a
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  Speaker 1: much harsher verdict though. That's the thing.
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  Speaker 2: I think you're right because you could even tell what
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  Speaker 2: the police officers in their interviews. They were sickened by
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  Speaker 2: the acts and in disbelief that a member of their
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  Speaker 2: own community could have such outlandish beliefs and honestly believe
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  Speaker 2: in them stick to them all the way through.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, just like ridiculous yeah, and so they were charged
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  Speaker 1: with murder, very serious, and again I applaud the prosecutors
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  Speaker 1: for charging fourteen people, including the parents. But the judge,
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  Speaker 1: after hearing the evidence, made a decision that rather than
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  Speaker 1: convict them of murder, he convicted them all of manslaughter.
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  Speaker 1: And as part of his decision, and this is where
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  Speaker 1: I think I would disagree with the judge, and I
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  Speaker 1: believe that probably parents would likely disagree with the judge,
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  Speaker 1: is that he stated that he wasn't completely sure that
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  Speaker 1: the parents when they removed the insulin from the little girl,
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  Speaker 1: intended to kill her. That there was no guarantee if
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  Speaker 1: you will that if you remove the insulin, she would
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  Speaker 1: have for sure died. And so that is where the
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  Speaker 1: judge came down and moved it from murder to manslaughter,
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  Speaker 1: my opinion, murder.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, the difference between murder and manslaughter is
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  Speaker 2: the intent, manslaughter being more neglect as opposed to murder,
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  Speaker 2: where you intentionally or knowingly try to or do kill
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  Speaker 2: another person. And you know, I don't want to say
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  Speaker 2: I sighed one way or another, but I can see
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  Speaker 2: where that judge is doing that in that it was
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  Speaker 2: so idiotic of them to believe that natural healing was
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  Speaker 2: going to save this girl. But I don't. I don't know,
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  Speaker 2: And it doesn't sound like they wanted the girl to die.
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  Speaker 2: They just wanted her to be healed under their own
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  Speaker 2: idiotic beliefs, is the way I interpret that. I think
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  Speaker 2: they're totally responsible for her death, without question, and they
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  Speaker 2: should have gotten more time. But the intention, I think
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  Speaker 2: the judge. I would lean on the judge's side as
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  Speaker 2: to how how I looked at that as far as
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  Speaker 2: neglect over knowingly or intentionally trying to kill their daughter.
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  Speaker 2: I would hope that they weren't trying to kill her.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I hear he Maybe.
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  Speaker 2: That doesn't sound right to you, but that's the way
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  Speaker 2: I would interpret the law end of that.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that they didn't want her to die,
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  Speaker 1: although I guess they believe that she's in a good
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  Speaker 1: place right now. I do agree with you. I just
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  Speaker 1: think that the level of I mean, you know, prior
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  Speaker 1: to their being in this cult, I mean, they couldn't
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  Speaker 1: have been that dumb. They couldn't have been that stupid.
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  Speaker 1: They couldn't have been that it's so reckless. You're right,
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  Speaker 1: and that's more manslaughter. But I'm just so angry with them.
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  Speaker 1: I want the book thrown at these people because she
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  Speaker 1: she suffered, She suffered terribly and unnecessarily.
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  Speaker 2: Another example of manslaughter is a drunk driver hitting another
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  Speaker 2: vehicle and killing the other driver. They didn't intend for
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  Speaker 2: that to happen, but because of their recklessness and negligence,
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  Speaker 2: they caused the death of another. Very tragic and should
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  Speaker 2: be penalized severely. But the intent is not, you know not,
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  Speaker 2: the driver's not intending to kill the other driver. And again,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: as reckless, as reckless and negligent as they were, an idiotic,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, every adjective you want to give, they fall
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  Speaker 2: in that category. I don't think they intended. I think
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  Speaker 2: they honestly believed they wanted to prove to everyone else
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  Speaker 2: that their natural healing was going to help.
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  Speaker 1: And I hear that, and I do see that, and
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  Speaker 1: I also think that there's another point as to why
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  Speaker 1: the judge also went with manslaughter again, and it is punishment.
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  Speaker 1: And that's why we have these discussions. We always ask
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  Speaker 1: the same question, what would justice look like in this case?
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  Speaker 1: We're all going to have varying opinions on it, and
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  Speaker 1: again I'm not knowing exactly how Australia's courts are structured.
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  Speaker 1: I think you have if they are going to appeal.
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  Speaker 1: Let's say the defendants, the convicted group here, decides that
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: they're going to appeal, you know, they have a stronger case,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: you know, to make an argument again saying look, this
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  Speaker 1: was really not murder. Whether that would be a condition
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  Speaker 1: for an appeal or not. You can appeal on anything.
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  Speaker 1: So I do feel that it was a way of
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  Speaker 1: trying to lock this down and say, Okay, let's get
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: justice for this little girl. Let's put these people away,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: let's put restrictions on when they can be released. And
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  Speaker 1: so he also sentenced them, and the sentences went down
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  Speaker 1: like this. Her parents were given fourteen years in prison,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the cult leader, sixty three year old Brendan Stevens, was
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: given thirteen years, and the rest were giving various degrees. So,
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  Speaker 1: as we said, is this justice? You know, the judge
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: made it clear that they have to they have to
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: be able to serve a majority of the time before
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: they're eligible for parole. I guess. And this isn't necessarily
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: about the law. This is about justice. When I say that,
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  Speaker 1: I'm angry and I wish that it had been murder,
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  Speaker 1: it goes I feel like, especially when we talk about religion, right,
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  Speaker 1: and we talk about intentions and we talk about people's beliefs.
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  Speaker 1: This judge showed these fourteen people, I believe, a form
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: of mercy. He could have gone harsher. I know it
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: may not have worked, but they didn't show her mercy,
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  Speaker 1: and so I want no mercy for them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, the more that we talk about this,
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  Speaker 2: this all started in twenty nineteen when they took her
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  Speaker 2: off the insulin originally and she contracted or was diagnosed
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  Speaker 2: as a type one diabetic where she now absolutely needed
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: this insulnce or survive. So that of builds on the
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: intention of the parents, where you're leaving recklessness and negligence
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  Speaker 2: and almost more of an intentional They served jail time,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Mom and dad served different. One was six months, one
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  Speaker 2: was eighteen months degrees of sentence. So they were already
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  Speaker 2: mildly punished for gravely injuring their daughter, which that was
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: the beginning of her death. And now they're look, we
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: put you in jail for taking her off the medicine,
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  Speaker 2: and then you get out and you remove her off
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  Speaker 2: the medicine when you get out, that leads more to
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  Speaker 2: an intentional taking of one's life at that point. I mean,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: you have a pretty good case there. One thing you
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: were talking about appeals. If I weren't amount of the
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: defense attorney, but I would think as a defense attorney,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: if they were convicted of murder, you would attack that
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and say they never intended to harm their child. They
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: believed in their beliefs that were going to save the child.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: And you might you might lose conviction of murder in
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: that regard. You know, the intention of the defendant is
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: really what you need to prosecute.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I realize that. And I'm being very
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: capricious here because.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, the more I thought about as
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: we talked, this started in twenty nineteen, and that intention
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: their neglect grew from twenty nineteen. This wasn't a one
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: time twenty twenty one death.
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  Speaker 1: This, Yeah, that's just it. And they, like I said,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: they doubled down. They doubled down on this belief of theirs.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, I would have argued with them, Oh, I,
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  Speaker 1: so why did God then make insulin? You know, this
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: would have been my argument with that. Trying to reason
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: with them on any level I could have to convince
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: them that they really have to help their daughter instead
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: of kill her daughter, kill their daughter.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this religious call I just reading up on it.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: You know, the strict views of Christianity where uh their
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: uh symbolizing the saints and uh you know, their their deaths.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: There there was they gained power from that and that
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: uh there was natural healing powers and uh you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: admiring and worshiping the saints. I'm im I went to
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: eleven years of Catholic school and I was raised in
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: the Catholic Church, and you know, we worshiped God and
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: we praised the saints and pray, we pray to saints,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Saint Anthony. If you lose something, you want to find it.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: So there, well, there is a level of worship to saints,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: but not to the extreme. I don't even know which
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Christian Christian religion they were, but regardless, they took it
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: to an extreme that uh not was harmful, was was
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: deadly to their own child. And uh you know again
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: what aggravates me more is that that it happened. Once
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: they did, they were punished for it, and they did
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: it again, and that that that that level of intent
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: for me grows from negligence into into causing the death
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: of your own child.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you could have even have had a split
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: verdict here. You could have charged well, they were charged
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: with murder, but you could have convicted the parents of
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: murder and everybody else of manslaughter. Maybe that would have
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: made me feel a little bit better.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I tend to agree more than I think about it. Uh,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: with with that line of thought.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the amazing thing about this group, and you
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: kind of mentioned this whole connection to the Saints, is
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: that they call themselves the Saints. There's only like, you know,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: a dozen members here. It's not like this is a
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: big group. They and their place of worship is a house,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: you know, they don't And that's it. It's it's that's it.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: That you have a small group of people practicing beliefs
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: which are reckless. Haven't clearly you know, killed a girl
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: without question, and and the fact that they continue to
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: like they haven't seen the light?
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Wow?
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  Speaker 1: Is this possible after all this time? If anything, they
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: are more stubborn and they are you know, they kind
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: of the judge said this in sentencing, and we'll get
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: to that about how the fact that they still believe
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: that they did the right thing, makes them truly dangerous.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: If they ever get released and are with another child.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: They're going to do the same. They're going to do
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: the same.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that they're never going to change. So they call
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: themselves the saints. Really, the only saint here was.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Little Elizabeth exactly, exactly.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: She's the only one with a halo here. I'm sorry,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: So let's get into the details of how we got
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: to this point, because it's not going to make any
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: sense people, obviously, because this whole thing is illogical. Elizabeth
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Strews was one of eight children, two of whom were
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: of adult age, and the remaining children were in ages
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: of three to sixteen. So according to the victim's older sister,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: this would have been her sister, Jade. So Jade at
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: sixteen comes out and once she declares that she's a lesbian,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: the group doesn't want her, and frankly, she doesn't want
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: to be with the group. But you know, it's a
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: hard it's a hard thing to be sixteen years old
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: without your parents. Because her parents reject her and her
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: siblings stay behind. So it was a very difficult time,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: and she said that she tried very hard to stay
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: in touch with her siblings. She was worried for the
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: safety of her siblings. Obviously, she was level headed. She
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: knew this whole thing was insane, she knew the potential danger,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: but no one was listening to the sixteen year old.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I don't know the psychological explanation to that,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: and I would take somebody from the field to really
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: be able to explain that better. But again, again, just
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: like the Jim Jones call, like how you take intelligent
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: people and they just totally changed their mindset and you know,
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: just bypass all common sense that what you're doing is
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: not good for you. I mean, you're intentionally arming yourself. Yeah.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Now, the Saints were led by Brendan Stevens, and
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: he broke away from another Christian church and operated independently.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: He's the one who made up the rules. So I
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: know you're asking, like, what is this? Is it even
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Christian base at base? I have no idea. I mean, honestly,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I just what kind of Christianity is this? All right?
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: So as part of their rules, now here's what's interesting
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: about them, for being supposedly a Christian sect. They didn't
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: celebrate Christmas, So I guess they didn't believe in Christmas.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: They didn't accept medical intervention. They believed that medical care
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: was in God's hands to heal them. And you know,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: there are other religions in which I mean, we've seen
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: this over the decades where because of religious beliefs, there
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be a transfusion, there wouldn't be certain medical procedures
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: for children. And we have seen where here in the
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: United States where hospitals or advocates on behalf of the
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: child would take the family to court and get a
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: ruling to get the child medical care in spite of
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: the parents' religious beliefs. I mean, we've dealt with this
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: many times before in this country.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, looking at it from New Jersey's point of view,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: we have Title nine, and everybody thinks that refers to
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: equal justice at the high school level between boys and girls.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Of boys basketball has a court, the girls need one,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: and so on to me for twenty five years. In
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: law enforcement, Title nine also has the definition of what
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: child abuse is, and for the purposes of child abuse,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: the criminal charge would be endangering the welfare of a child,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: but it would come under four sections abuse, abandonment, cruelty,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: or neglect. And there's like three criteria. The first would
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: be the victim would have to be a child, and
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: that statue defines a child as anyone under the age
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: of eighteen. The second is that the parent or guardian
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: had a legal duty to care for that child. And
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: the third point of a prong of that would be
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: that one of those forms of abuse, abandonment, cruelty, and
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: neglect occurs a parent or guardian driving their child home
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: from basketball practice and they're totally intoxicated and the child
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: dies during the car accident that's or gets injured. That's
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: a form of endangering the welfare of a child. So
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: that's how in New Jersey, if I was called to
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: a situation like this, I would be applying those set
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: of rules and laws to address the issue.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: What I mean this case, I just I got to
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: upset the more I talk about it. You know. It
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: was actually Elizabeth's mother, Carrie, who befriended the cult leader
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Brendan and his wife Loretta in two thousand and four.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Carrie apparently was the perfect recruit here because she immediately
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: bought in to the whole thing, no questions asked. This
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: is perfect, this is how I'm going to live my life,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: and raise my kids. But her husband, Elizabeth's dad, did
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: not agree. In fact, he wasn't very religious. He certainly
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: didn't buy into this nutty group of people, and it
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: became a real issue for their marriage. Actually, it got
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: to the point where he moved into the garage and
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: that he was working night shifts and he was trying
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: to avoid everyone in the household because he was trying
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: to avoid all the tension because there was so much
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: fighting going on about whether they were going to be
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: part of the cult or part of this religion or
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. So the Strews, even
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: though he disagreed, the children became part of the Saints.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: So you have mother Carey, you have all the kids,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: and then you have dad who really is fighting this
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: and doesn't want to be part of this and is
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you know, then the oldest gets kicked out. That's Jade.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: So when you were talking about how they got into
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: trouble the first time in twenty nineteen, this was an
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: argument within the family and then within the Saints. They
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: didn't want the little girl to be taken to the
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: doctor or the hospital, and there was a lot of
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: fighting going on, and the father finally broke free and
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: said that's it, and I'm taking her to the hospital.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And it was at that point that hospital administrators, nurses,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: doctors realize, hold on a second, these people have intentionally
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: withheld medical care from this child. This is a dangerous situation,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: which meant that the authorities got involved. Okay, so it
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: was made clear to them she has diabetes. You need
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: to treat her, and you know you don't have to
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: be a brain surgeon to know that you can die.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: That this is highly manageable, but potentially dangerous if mismanaged
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: or I'm treated exactly exactly. So the parents get charged
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: with their version of what we would call neglect rich
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: which is what you were describing there as to what
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: the criteria would be. They call it in Australia failing
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: to provide the necessaries of life. That's how they define it.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: So here's the amazing thing. They both get charged, right,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: and father Jason, he pleads guilty and then he testifies
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: against his wife Carrie and says it was all her.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: This is what they did for his cooperation. He gets
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: a suspended sentence, but mother Carrie is sentenced to eighteen
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: months and would serve only five. Yeah, okay, so while
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: mother Carrie is behind bars. This is the amazing part.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: This goes to what you said, Rich, that you're kind
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: of like thinking, well, hold on a second, there is
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: some premeditation here. She shows no remorse at this point.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: So she's sitting behind bars, charged with our equivalent of neglect,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: and she tells her parole officer hello. She tells the
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: parole officer that she would willingly withhold Elizabeth's insolent again
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: if she were given a choice. Why do they let
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: this woman out?
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And this reminds me and again over twenty five five
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: year career on occasion. First of all, everyone you meet,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: they're not guilty, even after they're arrested, convicted. Try to
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: majority of their peers and they're sitting in jail, they're
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: not guilty. But occasionally, over time you run into people
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: who can't get out of their own way and are
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: an extreme danger to themselves. This is this is one
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: of those cases where these people were going down a
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: road they I don't know, they had an idea. I
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: don't know if something clicks in their brain that shuts
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: off the information that says what's really wrong, or they're
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: intentionally ignoring that information that says what they really should do.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know. That's why I said, a
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: psychologist would know this answer better. But when when somebody
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: cannot get out of their own way and is it
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: it becomes a danger to themselves, you can't. The law
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: has to step in for their safety, and it may
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: it may may involve arrest and prosecution, but it's for
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: the good of that person because they can they're they're
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: missing the sign or ignoring the sign that's going to
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: help or save them. And it's really sad to see.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: But that's when as a police officer, I said, I
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: have to do my job, especially now in a case
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: for this part, for their own safety, not so much
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: to enforce the law.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: And because they were so insulated, it's not like you
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: would have someone you know, a neighbor say, or a
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: friend say, oh, hold on a second, I see something.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: They just kind of kept to themselves. So they're living
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: in this little bubble and they're having, you know, minimal
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: contact with the outside world, so there wouldn't be someone
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: to report them. If you will, right, if she.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: If the husband didn't take her to the hospital, she
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: could have died and they could have buried her and
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: know them would ever know. They were so tight in
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: this cult that the family member the girl could have
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: passed away and nobody ever would have ever know or
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: found out years later beyond a statute of limitations.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Probably. So it's amazing that they even called, like
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: thirty six hours after she passed. I want to get
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: back to the mother, Carrie, and that this time that
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: she spent, you know, being punished really in essence for
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: being a horrible mother. She also criticized her husband, Obviously
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: she was mad at him for testifying against her, and
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: she's while she was locked up, she was talking about
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: how she wanted to divorce her husband. Okay, so that's
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: what's going on in Carrie's world. And again you're right,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: we probably need a panel of mental health experts here
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: to figure out this next thing that happened. So remember
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: how we said, like, so Jason is the one who
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: took her to the hospital. He is the one who
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: testified against the wife. So it seems like he's been
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: bucking the system and trying to do bucking the system
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: of this crazy cult, meaning and trying to do the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: right thing by his daughter while she is in prison.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: This is the part I really don't get. It's like
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Jason now completely buckles. Something happens to him to the
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: point where he decides to finally become a member of
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the Saints.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: And surrender to their rules.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, he gets baptized. Yeah, he surrenders the fight.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's because he was left
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: without his wife and he had all these kids and
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: he's got a sick child on his hands, and he's
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: just like, I.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Don't know, he I guess, in his twisted mind, for
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: the love of his wife and their marriage, he didn't
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: want to lose that that he caved.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: And then when she finally when the mother gets out
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: of prison, she says that Jason's change of heart and
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: joining this cult, that she can see how much calmer
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: he is now that God had even cured his anger. Yeah,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: that's it.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that, Anna, But it
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: really puzzles me whether they or they don't have the
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: information or they're intentionally shutting that information off knowing it's
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: the right thing to do. But there's a switch in
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: there in your brain that they just flipped, and there
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: was no convincing them that what they were doing was
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: horribly wrong.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So five months later she gets out, she's back,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: families reunited. The Saints are fully in agreement, including father
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Jason has now said, you're right, Elizabeth doesn't need her insulin,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: and the other members were so happy to hear this.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: The man had finally come to his senses, according to
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the Saints, six days prior to Elizabeth's death on January seventh,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: that is when they started to withhold the medicine for
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the little girl. So she had been denied insulin for
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: six days, but for four of those days, she was
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: dying for four of those days. Yeah, And the amazing
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: thing is, while she's dying, that insulin is just one
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: cupboard away, and everyone knows it. Every adult in the
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: room knows it.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: You said it perfectly earlier that Elizabeth is the saint
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: in the story. My goodness, Martyrs.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: I'd rather she'd be alive and not be a saint.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: I'd rather she'd be a saint on earth. Well, of course,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: the girl got very ill, she started vomiting, she became unresponsive,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: she goes into a coma, and you know, the members
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: are praying and they're saying, quote, whatever the Lord's plan
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: is for us, we will follow it. I wasn't that great?
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: You follow all the wrong rules people. And then eventually,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: on January seventh of twenty twenty two, Elizabeth dies, but
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: they don't call for an ambulance. No, no, no, they
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: double down on the praying and the chanting and the singing.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: That's it. We're going to sing to her for thirty
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: six hours. It's not enough. On top of everything else.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Now they're singing to her. And what I don't understand
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: is why Jason even bothered to call the authorities at
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: this point, thirty six hours, she's dead, there's nothing you
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: can do, and they call the authorities. I'm surprised they
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: didn't do what you suggested, grab the kid and barrier
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: in the backyard.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I would think that that was coming if
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: if he didn't, you know, get better. I think I
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: think the right the correct morallygue right side of the
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: brain clicked in too late. But you know, now, now,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: what is the right thing to do? And calling the
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: authorities was I guess the least he could do.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: But here's where I'm very confus used. So you would
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: think finally someone came to their senses and call the authorities.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: But when police get there and first responders get there
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: and they've got their body crams. All these people, including
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: the parents, are saying unbelievable things like she's not dead,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: she's sleeping. Yeah, oh, she's in a better place. We
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: don't believe in medicine. This was God's will. So can
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: you imagine as a police officer, You're looking at all
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: these people and you're like, have you all lost your minds?
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: And you have two I guess categories here. You have
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: the leader Stevens, who there's mental illness I think on
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: his part, and then you have the followers who are
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: duped whether they're mentally ill or not. The leader Stevens,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: listen to him talk in that interview, he's the one
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: that gets the could go and convinces thirteen other people
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: that this is the way to live, and one guy's daughter,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: he sacrifices his own daughter under these beliefs. There's a
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: strong level mental illness on Steven's part, and I don't
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: know to what level the followers, you know, where they
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: fall in the mental illness range of it. And I
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: think there's two tracks there. There's two categories of the
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: leader and the follower. And you know he got one
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: less year than the parents that actually had the legal obligation.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: But I thought, being the leader and leading them down
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: this path, maybe the punishment should have been a little
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: more severe for me.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Rich the absolute Well, there's so many crazy things, but
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: this is so crazy that while the police are there,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: these cult members are arguing with police that Elizabeth is
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: not dead, not dead, that she's sleeping not dead, and
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: that God's about to resurrect her. This is I mean,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: can you believe this?
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: You can see in Stevens interview when he's being interrogateable
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: police and they said, uh, you know, are not about you,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: not about you? What about the pain that this girl
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: was suffering? And the ridiculous response he gave that she's dead,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: that that she has she feels no pain, and as
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: if her death in her death, she's living another life.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: And it's just unbelievable that the thought process that that
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: he's under, and then and that he has these other
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: people following. I I can't even describe the state of
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: mind that you're in. To him is a mental illness
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: him him, I see a severe mental illness and a
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: lack of logical reasoning, you know. And and then for
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: following him. I don't know to what level, but it's
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: it's obviously not good. It led to Elizabeth's death.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Well, the Saints leader, you know, denied any responsibility for
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: the girl's death. That wasn't his decision, that he had
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with it, right, blaming it on the parents.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: So I think he's a little more clear minded, yeah
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: than we can credit for, right, because I mean, here's
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: a squirrely one, this one. And then you know, Jason's
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: father does tell the authorities, well he did, you know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: he was second guessing his decision, and he turned to
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: the leader, and the leader said half faith. And then
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: he turned to his wife, the girl's mother, and she
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: said half faith.
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Clearly his second guessing was just not enough, just really
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: not enough. So here's the other thing police said, and
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: they found this really bizarre. Okay, everything that the poor
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: police officers are witnessing here is beyond right, Like who
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: could possibly be trained to deal with this insanity? But
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: on top of everything else, nobody's crying, nobody's upset. Yeah,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: there's a dead girl in the house. Yeah, they're crazy,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: these people.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, again, in New Jersey law is the
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: level of culpability the level of legal responsibility, and the
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: parents obviously bear the most level of culpability. But you know,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: the guy leading this pack and leading all these people
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: down this road. To the point whether they show zero
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: emotion over the death of a girl that they're responsible
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: for her death. I'm glad they got time, but they
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: didn't all the three main ones, the two parents and
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: the leader, did not get enough time. For sure.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: No, I agree with you. And then you know, to
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: try and convince authorities that listen, here's what we believe.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth is now free. She is free of her suffering
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: and the constraints. She's in a better place. You know what.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Not a good defense, Yeah, not a good defense. So fortunately,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: as I said at the beginning, the reason I've been
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: impressed with the authorities here is because they really did
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: take this seriously. They convened an investigation that took six
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: months here, and they were working with child protective services,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: they were working with child trauma experts, they were working
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: with homicide investigators to look at every part of this.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Because clearly the prosecutor wanted to make sure that justice
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: was served here. And again I applaud them for charging
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: them with murder and going as far as they possibly could,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: and the acting Superintendent Gary Watts said, you know, he'd
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: been in law enforcement for forty years and said he'd
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: never faced a matter like this. Like they were really
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: all beside themselves trying to unravel this case. It's like
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: they can't really be arguing that she's not dead, Like
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: how can we even reason with these people?
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, no, I was just going to say, it's
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: unfathomable to believe that. Are they that stupid or are
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: they that under the spell? Like there's no logical explanation
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: for that, not that I'm aware of, No, that you
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: would be be that not sadly, but that badly or
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: incorrectly off course.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: You know, most criminals when they're caught, they're trying to
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: point the finger somewhere else, right this group.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Right now, not them. Yeah, they're all in, are all in.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: They are all in. On July fifth, a search warrant
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: is issued and they arrive at the property, which is
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: also the church, which is you know again this weird
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: compound and this is where everyone worships. And officers arrested
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: seven women, five men, ranging in ages right from nineteen
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: to sixty four to quite a spectrum there of believers.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: And you know, police made their argument and they said, look,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: the people, the adults in that house did not render assistance,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: and everybody gets charged with murder. And then of course
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: it's the spectacle, as we mentioned, refusing attorneys refusing to enter. Please,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: so the judge entered, not guilty. Please on their behalf
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: to try and preserve their civil rights, even if they're
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: not preserving them, because God's going to take care of everything.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: And then this insanity with the waving to each other
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: and trying to convert people during the detention part. I
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: just again they're doubling down. I do like this one
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: part during the trial, the judge asked them to please
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: point to any line of scripture which says that doctors
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: or medicine are forbidden. Oh what a surprise. They couldn't
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: find that line, right.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And lawyers and judges don't ask questions they don't
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: know already know the answer to. So good on him,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: good on him.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, come on, where the judge was? It was a man.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: And you know, this judge is in charge of a
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: horrific circus. And at the heart of this circus is
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible death of a child, and he's trying
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: to keep decorum here with these people. So in the
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: judge's ruling, he claimed that the Saints leader, Brendan Stevens,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: had everything to do with Elizabeth's death, determining that the
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: man influenced the decision to withhold the influence from the
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: dying child. The judge called Brendan a quote dangerous and
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: highly manipulative individual. Elizabeth's parents, Jason and Carey, both received
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: prison sentences of fourteen years. They got the most. The
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Saints leader, Brendan Stephen Steven's got thirteen years behind bars,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: his wife got nine. Elizabeth's brother Zachary, who was in
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: this group, was given six years, and the rest were
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: given sentences between six and seven years. Of a total
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: group here, the judge said that they had taken the
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: life of a vibrant, happy child, and the group showed
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: utter disregard for human life. He said, quote Elizabeth's death
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: remains profoundly disturbing, if for no other reason that it
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: was so entirely and easily preventable. The judge said this
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: about the group. Your prospects of rehabilitation are bleak, to
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: say the least. Quote. It is my opinion that you
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: should have nothing at all to do with the care
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: or custody of any child, nor should you ever have
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: direct or in direct contact with a child unless such
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: contact is strictly supervised.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Good on the judge for recognizing all these signs. I mean,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, they're not going to change
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: one bit if they survived jail and they're alive, which
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: I assume they all will, uh, you know, for years
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: to come. And I wouldn't be surprised if we're reading
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: more stories about other deaths in the future. These these
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: people can't get out of their own way.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: And you know, here's something I wish for if they
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: believe so strongly that they didn't do anything wrong. If
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: any of these fourteen people should fall ill while they
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: are in prison, I don't think that they should be
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: given medical care.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I I think you cross a legal line there.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: And uh.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is you don't have to worry
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: because I don't think they'll take it.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I know, a cruel and unusual punishment, right, But it's like.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: I'm a I'm all, I hear you, But that would
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: that would say that we're we're lowering ourselves to their level.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: All right, Okay, you're right, You're right, you're right. But
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I guess, can you I don't.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: I don't even know. And you can you deny them
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: whether you're dying in prison or you're very very ill,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: don't they? Isn't there a legal responsibility to render aid? Right?
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: Yes?
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely the prison. Yeah they have.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: To, so that will be against theirs.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: But if you're supposed to take insulin for your diabetes
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: as as an adult and you refuse to take it,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: that's on you. I've offered you, I've brought the medicine
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: to you, and I've given you the injector and everything,
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: and you just say, no, I'm not taking it. I'm
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: not going to inject it in you. But I offered
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: it to you and made it available to you chose
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: not to take it. That that is how that would
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: play out. But I would definitely I would not say
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: we're denying you, because I yeah.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: But it's just so you know, it's going to happen, right,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: especially since you've got you know, people who are older
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: in this sect. Someone's going to have an ailment, someone's
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: going to get ill. I'm just I'm hoping that the
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: journalists in Australia are going to keep tabs on this
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: group and update us on these people.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I don't think you have to worry, and I think
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: it'll catch up to them. And they've they've consumed enough
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: of the kool aid that they are not going to
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: change their colors now. And I say, all right, we
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: want the medicine. They're going to die this painful death,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: thinking that natural ailments are going to save them.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll see. So after the members were sentenced, let's
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: get back to the eldest sister here, the one who
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: was kicked out of the cult, the one who was
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: always worried and was sounding the alarm and did not
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: drink the kool aid. This is Elizabeth's older sister, Jade.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: She said outside the courtroom that there was finally justice
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: for her sister. And as for the Saints, she blames
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: them for breaking up her family, saying, quote, the coercion
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: and the manipulation that Brendan used to not only his
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: own family but mine is the most unforgivable and disgusting
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: abuse of people's vulnerability.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Good on her for standing up against this cult. Good
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: on and her family. Good on her.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, there are a lot of times
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: we cover so many cases on this podcast and I
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: say to you, you know, we're going to watch this case.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: We're going to keep you updated. I don't just say it,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: I really mean it. And when there is a significant
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: update on a case that we've discussed, we try really
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: really hard to come full circle and have the discussion
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: about what happened and how, how and what was justice
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: determined in this case. So and this is an example
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: of that. And I'll ask Will to link to the
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: first case of the first podcast we did on this
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: one if you all want to hear that, because it
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: gives you the like the full progression of the case.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: It is time for our comments section. These are the
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: crime cases that you all are talking about on social media.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: And here is our producer, Will Updyke Hey, Will, how
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: are you good?
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: How's it going?
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: Ena good Rich Hey? Likewise, So in this common section piece,
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: we have another case of people kind of drinking the
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: kool aid. But this isn't a religious one. This is
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: all about a sort of online viral craze. This case
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: comes out of Saint John's, Florida, where three teens have
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: been arrested after taking part in a new TikTok trend. Now,
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: this trend is called the door kick challenge, and it's
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: basically what it sounds like. People are running up to
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: residential homes, kicking on the door and then running away
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: from the house before the residents can reach the door.
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: It's kind of similar to like a ding dong ditch thing.
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: But if you see some of the video, because you know,
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: there's so many nest camps and stuff, now these things
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: have kind of been captured and some of these people
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: are you know, inherently filming themselves as part of.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: The old trend.
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: It's like they're kicking these doors pretty hard, and you
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: can understand how it would be a little bit scary
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: to a homeowner, you know, ading gong ditch. It's kind
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: of like, you know, maybe I'm just aging myself, maybe
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: I'm just old. But it always felt like that was
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: just kind of like he he You're ringing the doorbell
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: and running away, and this is like they're like pounding
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: on the door, which I think immediately, I don't know,
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: anytime any knock comes on my door, I'm a little
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: bit on edge, let alone someone kicking at it. But
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: this particular incident unfolded, as I said in Saint John's, Florida,
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: after police were contacted by a resident about a potential
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: burglary in unfolding, So a homeowner's ring capture like captured
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: some of the individuals here. And when the resident is
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: on the phone with the dispatcher, they're asking if you know,
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: they if they think any of these burghers were armed.
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: They said no, but the caller noticed noted that her
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: husband had armed himself. He was going to answer the
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: door with the gun. Decided ultimately against it, but kept
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: the weapon with them just in case. You know, they
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: were worried that they would return. So the cops show
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: up to the area. They eventually sort of locate three
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: teens here hiding. They were all dressed in dark clothing
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: and gloves and they were, like I said, they were
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: in the vicinity here. And you know, that's the thing too,
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: I think is if you see this on your ring camera,
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: you see somebody all dressed in black with the gloves
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: and everything, and it all feels pretty threatening. And they
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: had a pretty strict talking to these teens. Apparently they
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: had gone to like multiple houses in the neighborhood and
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: caused like significant damage to one of the doors there
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: one of the residents. But the officers are talking to
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: teens and there's some of the body cam video online
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: and you know, the officers are clearly frustrated, but they're
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: kind of also you could tell there's some concern for
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: the alleged suspects.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Here.
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: The cop asked, you guys want to get shot by
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: a homeowner when you're kicking their door and they think
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: you're breaking in to kill them. And the team, of
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: course is no, sir, which very respectful response. Got to
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: commend them for that. But this didn't just end, obviously
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: with a stern talking to That's why we're chatting about
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: it here. The teams were arrested on charges of loitering
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: and prowling, and one of them was also charged for
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: criminal mischief due to this damaged door. Now, the Sheriff's office,
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: they took this pretty seriously. They're worried about this one.
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: They told media outlets the complaintants were armed waiting at
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: the front door to shoot the possible intruder. Participating in
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: this criminal act has serious and possibly life changing consequences.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: That this one.
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: It's giving me weird flashbacks to like there was a
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: trend like years and years ago again aging myself here
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: where people were swatting places, where they were like calling
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: in these like fake threats, and swat teams were like
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: showing up at places, and you know that that's like
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: a whole mess of a thing.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: But it seems like I feel like there's some there
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: appears to be some general misunderstanding on what a what
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: qualifies as like a prank, and what crosses over into
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: uh into territory.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's very clear there's no misunderstanding here.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: This is not a I mean, come on, now, are
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: you an idiot? I mean, you're literally trying to bust
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: down a door. I'm surprised they weren't charged with burglary
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: trying to break in in something more serious than this.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's the thing. I think if in
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: your head, you know, you're you're ever considering a prank
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: or something, maybe consider like that that the outcome and
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: effect And if one of those outcomes or effects is
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: that someone could grab a gun, it's probably not a
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: good prank to uh to associate yourself with, or to
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: you know, to get involved then, and in.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Florida withstand your ground laws, I'm not surprised that someone
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: was standing there armed, ready to go, because why would
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: you think if someone is kicking your door in why
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: would you automatically think this is not a threat, this
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: is a prank. That's absurd.
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: Yes, well, and I mean yeah, especially in Florida. I
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: mean you have cases there where, like you know, just
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: altercations in a movie theater and things have resulted in
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: in someone getting shot. And there are times where the
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: defendant or like is you know, they're not being charged
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: because under you know, under that state specific statute. You know,
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: they have very very protected laws around that sort of thing.
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: So it's yeah, I think it's one of those things
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: too where even if you're a kid, you got to
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: kind of consider the locale of where you're at because
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: it's yeah, it could turn very serious very quickly. Again,
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: like I do think about sort of like the change
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: in prank and stuff. I'm just gonna open this with
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: a comment from Uncle Tinfoyle. They said, why can't these
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: kids be good and just blow up mailboxes like we
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: did as kids, which I'm not I'm obviously not advocating
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: for that. It is a federal offense to tamper with
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: the mail, so don't do that. But it is just
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: interesting to me because I do think and I don't
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: know if it's just because things are more filmed now
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: or like what the situation is, but it does seem
• 55:23
  Speaker 4: like we're seeing more and more incidents. Obviously this is
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: an extreme case, but of things that used to be
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: considered maybe more good natured fun being met with a
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: certain certainly a different response.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's like water balloons. Whatever happened to water balloons?
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: People exactly exactly? Or you know, whatever happened to like
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: te peeing something.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: The kids are caught up in the TikTok trend. They're
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: not thinking of the consequences and all the things that
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: you're concerned with, well, they're not seeing that end of it.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: They're just thinking about keeping up with the next trend.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: And you know, there's a disconnect, and you know by
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: the police charge, you know, the police don't want to
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: charge anybody if there's damage, you know, the kids, get
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: the kids parents to pay for or whatever. We you know,
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: we don't want to be filing criminal charges on a
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: kid kicking a door, quite honestly, but you have to
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: at some point draw a line and say, look, you're
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: gonna start getting locked up, uh and and paying for
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: the damages if this if we don't knock this stuff off,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: so you have you have to kind of raise the
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: bar and and enforcement. But we don't want to be
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: bothered with with this type of trend. We don't want
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: to answer a call where a homeowner has shot a
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: kid who's just trying to fulfill a TikTok prank.
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, can you imagine, I mean, this could could easily.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to imagine that. I wouldn't even want
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: to not at all.
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: No, But I think you're right, Like I do think
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: there is something like escalating it about like the you know,
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: the the visibility of it, and like the social media
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: and media nature of it. Paul c said. Next is
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: the go for a jog on the Interstate challenge, which
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: is like it just feels like these things like they
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: have like a weird way of heightening and I don't know, Yeah,
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know exactly what's contributing to that, but I
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: think you're right Richard, like behind all of it is
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: really just not sort of considering like the the after
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: effects or some of the consequences of some of those things.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: They're not thinking about them at all. They don't have
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: any input that would tell them, hey, bad things are
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: going to happen if you keep doing this, if you
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: if you kick down the wrong door.
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah no, we got to comment here that I think
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: was a good point of that. Florida for Life said,
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: this is why there are juvenile courts because the brain
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: isn't there yet and bad decisions abound. Don't know how
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: I survived, to be honest, Which well.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: That's such a good point because right these are stupid
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: decisions being made by my teens, my teens, and they're
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: always going to make these decisions. And you know, I
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: do feel very strongly like there have to be consequences
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: for actions, right.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Of course, yeah I do.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: And but as Rich is saying, it's like, really, if
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: you know I got to patrol, I got to do this,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: this is is this the best you know a service
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: that we can provide? Is I mean, these kids do
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: have to be punished, and it's something as many of
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm on the board of an LAPD affiliated
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: nonprofit and we work in this area called Boyle Heights,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: East LA. You all have heard of that. And one
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: of the things that we do is like this diversion program,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: and at the heart of it is kids doing really
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: stupid things and trying to get like buy in from
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: the police department that we work with at holl'mback and
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: working with the arresting officer and the captain and the sergeant,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: and then working with the family and trying to see
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: if we can come up with a you know, diversion
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: plan where everyone's looking at what they've done. You know,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: let's not get a record, but let's have consequences for
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: these actions. Let's stay out of trouble. And you know,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking. Like we just had our fundraiser recently, and
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: this young woman talked about how she stole makeup from
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: Target and got arrested and she was having terrible problems
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: at home. I believe me, you should not be stealing
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: makeup or anything from Target. But you know, you could
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: see how she was describing the terror of what she
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: had done and it had come to grips with what
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: she had truly done, and how she's had an opportunity
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: to change her life and she's back in school and
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: she's back on the road to being a thriving person,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: and we've built in support for her and her family,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: And I guess this is what I'm talking about, you know,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: when you hear that story and you see this young
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: person really struggling and acknowledging and having done the work.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: You know, but in our broken justice system, do we
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: have time to treat every teenager who makes a mistake
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: with this kind of attention?
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: Well, And I think that's a good point because you know,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: we talked about justice on this podcast every week, and
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: it's not always going to look the same. You know,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: it is up to a community, and there are opportunities,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: especially like for these younger vendors and stuff that we
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: hope that you know, it doesn't necessarily have to involve
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: jail time or something, but you know, some sort of
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: consequence and hopefully there's some sort of reflection that comes
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: from that, or you know, some some sort of impetus
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: to change course and do something a little bit differently.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: Speaking of doing things differently, we got a commenter who
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: has a different idea for a trend that came from Orwell,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: who said, the ultimate challenge is being mentally healthy and
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: not a narcissist looking for attention. You get a lot
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: of wrap for it. These dudes should try it out, which, yeah,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's probably not getting as many views on TikTok.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: Or wherever, but not so easy, right.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not an easy challenge, which makes them all
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: the more of a challenge. I'm going to close this
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: one out with a comment from Shepherd Commander, who said,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: play stupid games, win stupid prizes, which is just a
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, honestly, just a pretty evergreen piece of advice
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: it is. But yeah, that's we'll do it for this one. Anna,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: did you have any comments you wanted to share?
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is from last week's podcast, viewers. Yeah, you know,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: last week's podcast is fascinating if you get a chance.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: If you all know the actress Eva LaRue, she was
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: on CSI Miami and all my children in General Hospital,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: and she had a stalker for years, a horrific stalker
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: who had terrorized her, her daughter. It was just awful,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: and the FBI eventually figured out who it was, this
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: man who was sending letters, these threatening letters from Ohio
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: calling the daughter's school. Anyway, we had her on the
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: podcast to discuss the fact that the man was finally arrested,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: but of course he did very little jail time, which
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem like justice. And these are the comments about
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: that podcast. This is from Vintage nineteen fifty, the irony
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: that she was a crime scene detective on TV. Feel
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: for her. Here in the UK, a guy stalking a
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: TV presenter with intent to cause harm received life with
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: a minimum of sixteen years. We had a discussion about
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: how stalking is not taken seriously enough by the authorities
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: and the courts. So Riq writes a stalking registry, which
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: is something Eva is advocating for, is brilliant and I
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: hope to see legislation soon. She's trying to change the laws.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: And then Lesha k Mayo writes, Oh, what a much
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: needed episode Anna and Eva. We need more powerful laws
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: and sentencing for stalking. Love Warrior survivors. It's an amazing
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: survivor story. She's just lovely. Eva's just lovely and she
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: has a new documentary out that's on Paramount Plus and
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: she just bears it all in.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: That recommended Yeah, I highly recommend it. Yeah, very scary things.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: One of those things that needs to be addressed a
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: little bit more by law enforcement. But that will do
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: it for this week's conversation. Want to thank everybody who
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: sent those in You can of course do that over
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: on YouTube. You can also reach out to us across
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: all social media at my True Crime News. But until
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: next week, don't do crime, even if it's part of
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: some sort of challenge.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Rich, It's always so good to see you, my friend
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: from South Jersey.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for having me back.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely Rich, before we go, where can people find
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: your follow you because you have a book out.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very important missing person's case from nineteen ninety one.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: The boy's name is Mark. Heinbal Ana Garcia herself covered
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: it as a news reporter. You can find my book
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: on Amazon dot com. It's called Where Is Mark? I
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: also have a website where is Mark dot com?
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: And it's very important if you are interested in this
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: case that is unsolved, which has dedicated so much of
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: his time too. Rich also follows up on tips and
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: I know I know that you do. And then if
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: I get them or you all know Lewis Bolanos, who's
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: a regular on this show, a former homicide investigator, we
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: get them also about Mark, and we send them to you, Rich,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: and I know you send them on to the cold case. Yeah,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: but nothing.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, you know, because I'm not in the investigatidation
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: directly anymore. They can't tell me exactly what they're working on.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: But you know, I have a direct link to the
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: Prosecutor's office, detective assigned to the case, as well as
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: the chief of middletownser Police. So if they send it
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: to you or to me, they will get to the investigators.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: Or they can send them directly to Middle townser Police
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: or the Caveman County Prosecutor's office.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we always, we turn stuff over all
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: the time. In fact, Lewis and I got one a
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: few weeks ago about someone claiming to know who was
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: responsible for a double homicide. We of course took this
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: very seriously, got on the phone with them, tried to
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: verify the information. But ultimately, of course, all we did
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: was turn it over to the authorities. And then the
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: authorities took him forever to respond to us, and Lewis
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: and I are like, hello, but you know, they'll say, well,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: we've got some regular tipsters and this is what this
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: sounds like. I don't know, it's not for me to judge.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: We just but we have to solve these cases.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and in my case, in particular, finding Mark Heimball.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: Eleven year old boy didn't deserve his outcome, and we
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: need to find justice for him, bring them home.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you rich for always doing that. You're
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: always you've been fighting the fight there, my friend, and
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: that's why I appreciate you will and I thank you
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: for absolutely all Right, So you can find this podcast
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: all our podcasts wherever you get your podcasts, or you
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: can watch them on YouTube because that's where we have
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: this great community, and I love to hear your comments.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: I want to hear your comments about whether you think
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: justice was served in Elizabeth's case, did this little girl
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: get justice? Can't wait to hear what you have to say.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: So subscribe to our YouTube channel more than five million
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: people have make it six billion, shall we? And subscribe
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: to our newsletter at true Crimenews dot com. You can
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: always find me at Ana g News Ana with one en.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: It's so funny that I always say that people just
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: start saying to me, or they'll write to me and
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: they'll say, hey Anna with one end. It's just hilarious. Anyway,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: until next week. This is True Crime News the podcast.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Anna Garcia. Crime never stops, and neither
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: do we