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The Legacy of the Reformation: Freedom, Fragmentation, and Accountability · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today.
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  Speaker 2: So let's get started.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Everyone, Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. We are
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: here with Greg Guiggle and we're going to continue talking
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: about the Reformation. Really this episode we're going to kind
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: of talk a little bit about more of the legacy
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: of the Reformation and what it actually means to be Protestant.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: And so Greg, welcome back to the show.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: How you doing. Thank you pretty good.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a nice way to close up the series,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I think, kind of wrap it up and talk a
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: little bit about modern day Protestantism, its roots back in
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  Speaker 1: you know, the legacy of the Reformation obviously, and some
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: of the promises and pitfalls that the Reformation is have
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: been enduring after the reserv Reformation.
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  Speaker 3: Let's say, Okay, yeah, that's good way to put it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's start with some of the promise. I mean,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, we've talked in previous episodes. We
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: talked last episode about the Sola's, you know, and you
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: had your three questions that I think really sort of
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: frame out some of the theological aspects.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: When we think about maybe relational dynamics within Protestantism.
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  Speaker 1: You know, one of the things we spoke about was
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  Speaker 1: all this sort of infighting, right, and and the way
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: you had these you know, sort of back and forth
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: against is we're trying to clarify doctrine and figure out
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: what the relationship is to the state and all that
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: kind of good stuff. Uh, what do you think the
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: diversity within Protestantism? How does it provide us with some
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: strength today and maybe in a way that it didn't
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: in that at that time.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think let me preface that by
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: pointing out I think people make mistakes when they try
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  Speaker 4: to uncritically defend for additions.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so.
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  Speaker 4: I'm not a Protestant because it's perfect. I'm a Protestant
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  Speaker 4: because it's the least problem of three options.
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  Speaker 3: I mean.
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  Speaker 1: That being Catholic and Greek Orthodox, is that.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Eastern Orthodoxy or Orthodoxy if you want to use it, Orthodoxy,
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  Speaker 4: Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism. So Winston Churchill once said democracy
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: is the best worst system. I think Protestantism is the
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: best worst choice. And you know, it's kind of like
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: getting married. I think it was John Mellencamp that has
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: this line, I'm looking for a lady that's never been born.
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  Speaker 4: Part of deciding to marry somebody is finding a person
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  Speaker 4: whose problems you can live with, because there's no such
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  Speaker 4: thing as a perfect man or woman. You just you
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  Speaker 4: know you're going to get a mess. It's just which
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  Speaker 4: mess is livable.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: So I don't think Protestantism is the perfect church. I
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  Speaker 4: don't think the perfect church exists. I do not believe
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  Speaker 4: it will exist this side of the return of Christ.
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  Speaker 4: So what we're doing is we're we're making choices with
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  Speaker 4: our eyes wide open, acknowledging that really what we're doing
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  Speaker 4: here is saying these problems are less problematic than those problems. Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: so I'd like to frame it that way to begin with.
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  Speaker 2: That's a good framing. Yeah, that's helpful.
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  Speaker 1: So I mean, go ahead, Yeah, no, I was just
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  Speaker 1: going to say, like, when we think about you know,
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  Speaker 1: the beginnings of Protestantism, You're you're sort of moving from
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  Speaker 1: a more centralized religious institution in the Roman Catholic Church.
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  Speaker 1: We saw these problems. It means we've talked through the
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  Speaker 1: different aspects of the Reformation. You see the problems with
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  Speaker 1: that sort of broader authority, tarian, deeply hierarchical system and
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: the really the isolation of the laity we might say,
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  Speaker 1: from the Word of God that created problems.
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  Speaker 2: And there were a lot of other factors.
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  Speaker 1: But and so now you're moving into Protestantism, which has
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  Speaker 1: a more diffuse authority structure that's going to allow everyone
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  Speaker 1: to sit underneath the Word of God that seems to
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  Speaker 1: me to have some really good things and some really
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  Speaker 1: bad things, right, because obviously, whenever we have these disruptions,
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  Speaker 1: you're going to end up amplifying the good parts of
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: humanity and amplifying the bad parts of humanity exactly. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: talk through the positives of the Reformation that we'll get
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: into some of the problems maybe.
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  Speaker 4: Well, the positives are I think you've mentioned the number
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  Speaker 4: one excuse me here. Number one, you have this notion
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  Speaker 4: that the church is not a professional or organization that
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: is owned by the professionals, that it is an organism
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  Speaker 4: that every member has a responsibility and an obligation, and
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  Speaker 4: the Spirit gives all believers, and all believers are an
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  Speaker 4: essential part of the life of the church.
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  Speaker 3: So this sort of.
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  Speaker 4: For lack of a better term, ownership that comes out
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: of Protestantism, I think is a very positive thing. The
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: other emphasis on the scripture in local language, getting people
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  Speaker 4: in the Bible, making sure they're reading the Bible, making
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: sure they know the Bible, making sure that it is
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  Speaker 4: accessible to lay people. That's a very good thing. I
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: think that's a very positive thing. There is a kind
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  Speaker 4: of freedom that comes with Protestantism. Now that's a double
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  Speaker 4: leedged sword. Freedom always is, but the ability to question,
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  Speaker 4: to think, to raise issues, and do it in a
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  Speaker 4: construct where there isn't this kind of radical authoritarianism that
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: you see tied to something like a papacy. So I
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  Speaker 4: think those are all positive things. It allows Protestantism to
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: be flexible and it's it's changeable. Again, that's a double
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  Speaker 4: edged sword. There's this kind of Protestant mantra simple reforma
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  Speaker 4: always reforming, the church always needs to be reformed. This
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  Speaker 4: notion that static is not good that we need to
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  Speaker 4: be constantly looking to God, looking.
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  Speaker 3: To Scripture always.
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  Speaker 4: So there's this internal dynamic. And again that's a double
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  Speaker 4: edged sword. So I think those are things that are
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: all positives. I think there's an upside. Again, it's a
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  Speaker 4: double edged sword, but I think there's an upside to
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: this kind of denominationalism. It allows people to fellowship more
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  Speaker 4: deeply with people with whom they have more in common.
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  Speaker 4: So certainly, for example, there is something beneficial to people
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  Speaker 4: who are reading the scriptures the same way as it
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  Speaker 4: relates to a question like baptism. That creates a cohesion
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  Speaker 4: of practice and belief that has some value to it,
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: and it does create choices for people, choices on things
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  Speaker 4: that are non negotiables or that are negotiables that.
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  Speaker 3: Are non essentials.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think those are those are valuable. But again,
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  Speaker 4: what I'm gonna be a broken record on this, most
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  Speaker 4: of these are double edged swords.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, because let me, let me probe it a
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  Speaker 1: little bit, And I think you're right.
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  Speaker 2: It is a double edged sword. I think that.
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  Speaker 1: So, I mean, we are both in higher education, We're
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: both involved in Bible colleges and seminaries. I've done additional
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  Speaker 1: consulting outside of that. And so I've seen let's say,
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  Speaker 1: the Lutheran seminary system versus the what we might call
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: the broadly evangelical seminary system. These are non affiliated with
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  Speaker 1: any denomination. You can just go to seminary and learn.
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  Speaker 1: You know, anybody can jump into a Master of Divinity degree,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: whether they're planning on being a pastor or not. Right,
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  Speaker 1: you can see the difference in the dynamic that that creates.
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  Speaker 1: And so even within Protestant is and what I would
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  Speaker 1: sort of argue is that when you get a Lutheran pastor,
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  Speaker 1: you pretty much know what you're getting. There's a stricter training,
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  Speaker 1: they have a more coordinated understanding of what they're trying
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  Speaker 1: to do within the pastorate.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, and I.
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  Speaker 1: Wouldn't say it's more hierarchical, although it could certainly be
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  Speaker 1: characterized that way.
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  Speaker 2: I want to call it coordinated. I want to say that.
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  Speaker 1: Everyone's in agreement that this is the way the cadence
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  Speaker 1: of that Lutheran Church is going to go. This is
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: in general, what we want the homilies to look like,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: this is what we want the people to hear, the
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: rituals they want them to go through That coordination is
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: actually really crucial within the Lutheran Church. Whatever you may
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  Speaker 1: think of it, there is a rationale to it and
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  Speaker 1: it's quite important, yes, versus what we get in the
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  Speaker 1: dotted landscape of you know, seminary trained individuals who go
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: out from an evangelical church and established now a non
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: denominational church where, you know, in whatever city they want.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: This person doesn't have then those coordinated resources to draw on.
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  Speaker 1: It's all very I want to use a word, but
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I don't really mean it this way. It's consumerist. And
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: what I mean by that is this person has to
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: now go out and find a resource here and there
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: and sort of cobble things together. There's not a consolidated
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: set of materials that can be used. That to me,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: it strikes me is there's problems obviously with the Lutheran way.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: It can get a little bit too coordinated. It isn't
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: quite as responsive. You know, as you add structure, that
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: boat's going to be harder to turn right versus what
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: you have on the other side, which feels like it
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: could be that sort of stereotypical willing nilly you never
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: really know where it's going kind of thing.
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  Speaker 4: Exactly those are the waters in which Protestantism navigates. I mean,
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: strangely enough, Oh, it's probably been forty, maybe even fifty,
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: maybe even sixty years ago now. Moody Monthly Magazine which
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: is now defunct, but it was the monthly magazine of
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: Moody Bible Institute ran a cover story is your pastor
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: of Pope, Because that's the other thing that happens when
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: you have these There is no It becomes a function
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: of the personality of the most powerful person in the congregation.
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  Speaker 4: So you lose coherence, you lose continuity. So you can
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: go to a Lutheran church pretty much anywhere in the
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: world and it's going to be roughly the same evangelical churches.
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  Speaker 4: You really don't know what's going to happen because it
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: is now there's both an upside and a downside to.
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  Speaker 2: That one hundred percent.
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  Speaker 4: And so I think that's I think, and certainly what
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  Speaker 4: has happened with non confessional evangelicalism. I think we can
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: say that that is not what anybody had in mind
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  Speaker 4: in the sixteenth century.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And I think where I think I'm connecting this
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: and it wouldn't be obviously it's not the only way
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: to understand this, and I don't even think it's maybe
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: not even the most prominent, but it strikes me that
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: our conversation about the teaching office and Luther's convictions about
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: the teaching office have been probably better preserved in a
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: lot of ways in a more structured church environment like Lutheran,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: maybe Episcopal, some Presbyterian, right, because they have that more
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: coordinated set and can pull people through congregants through a structured.
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  Speaker 2: It's like a curriculum.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: But it's not that a more structured life that's going
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: to teach them katechiss yes, right, yeah, versus these these
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: non denominational churches which are so loose and open that
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: what we what tends to get lost is the katechisis.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: And so with regard to the teaching office, that's where
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of leaning, and I've been thinking through this
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: issue since we had the conversation. It's like, Man, those
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: unstructured churches, how do you build that back into them?
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: Well, the way that it had historically been held in
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: my opinion, what's something like ordination, But even that's gone
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: out the window.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: That's gone out the window.
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: Yet, so ordination was at least a means by which
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: the congregant did two things. They identify a person as
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: being called, and they also identified a person as being
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: doctrinally sound. Yeah, and when that is you know, when
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: that is eliminated, then anybody who wants to can on
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: the basis of their own authority claim teaching office. And
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: the reality is this is a function. You use the
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: word consumerism, and I know it's a loaded word, but
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: in this case it's it's the accurate word. Who is
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: the person that can generate the largest number of followers?
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: And that may or may not be a function of
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: either called or orthodoxy. That may be a function of
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: simply charisma. And I think we may have mentioned there's
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: a scholar out Mollyworthen that has a new book out.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: It's called Spellbound, where her whole book it's an academic book,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: so it's a heavy read. But her whole book is
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: about the role that the charismatic person, not the charismatic.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Kim talking about about.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: A person who is a gifted kind of person, the
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: role they have played in religion in an American life.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: And so a.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: Person who has the capacity to draw.
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  Speaker 3: A crowd.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: Can draw crowd regardless of what they say, and there's
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: no there's no control. That's that is the downside. That's
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: Protestantism run a muck. That is not what anybody who
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: was a proud or I shouldn't say anybody, but certainly
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: not the major reformers in the sixteenth century wanted. And
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: this is exactly what the Catholic Church said was going
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: to happen. You're going to get these knuckleheads or these
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: shucksters or these lunatics who are just and there's no
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: control who controls this thing?
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because there was no oh sorry, go ahead.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: Well, in sixteenth century Europe it was controlled by the
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: king right, you had state religion, and then the United
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: States said we got a new idea government staying out
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: of that. You can believe anything you want. The only
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: limit or on religion in the United States is how
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: many people can you.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: Get to believe you?
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And so you can set up a five oh
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: one c three. You can say Jesus is returning to Flint,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: Michigan on November fourth in twenty twenty nine. And if
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: you can get enough people to do it, you're good
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: to go. And that's that's the downside. Now, my argument
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: as a Protestant is that alone is not sufficient to
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: justify a pope. So I'm willing to live with that
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: in exchange for not living with a pope.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: So just just to clarify that, because I think our
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: minds are tracking in the same direction. What I would
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: argue is what you have in the Reformation is you
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: have an accountability problem within the Catholic Church that the
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: person who should have been the adult in the room
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: was being a child and making foolish decisions, that immature
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: decisions about indulgences. They got greedy, they fell into opulence,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: like however you want to say it, that's kind of
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: what happens. Yeah, right, And now what we're doing in
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Protestantism we see that same dynamic is that as we
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: have these different independent churches out there, their accountability has
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: to be suspect because they aren't sitting under a hierarchy.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: They govern themselves to a large degree, and we've seen
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: that go off the rails. We've probably also seen it
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: go very very well. Right, So we don't want to
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: say all of these are bad, but I think, what
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: when I hear you say, I agree with you. I
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: don't want to pope, but I think then what we
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: need to be solving for within Protestantism is accountability.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: The main line.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the mainline denominations have it to a degree. Right,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Lutheran Church has an accountability structure that they're utilizing, you know,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: some of these bigger conferences. You know, we've seen some
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: of the challenges of the Presbyterian Church USA lately. The
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: United Methodists just split, but they had accountability structures. Those
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: accountability structures inevitably fracture as well, And I don't I
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: don't think we can judge an accountability structure by whether
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: it holds forever or not, right, right, So I think
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: they were sufficient for a time, and now we still
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: have to keep struggling on what does it look like
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: to really have accountability within these areas That does not
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: for us look like a pope, but it also can't
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: look like for us. Hey, we're an independent church. We're
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: going to do our own thing. Damn what everybody else thinks?
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: That probably isn't the right movie either.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: That's yes, I just don't know how you fix that. Yeah,
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: I mean there is no means now you know that
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: used to be fixed by denominationalism. Yeah, so you know
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: you had Baptists, and there was a even though the
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: individual congregation was independent, there was still a level of
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: accountability or at least a conversation with an external body.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: You still have that with Conservative Presbyterians, you have that
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: with Conservative Lutherans, you have that with Conservative Methodists. So
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: that is still in place, but those.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: That is not.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, I don't have the numbers in front of me,
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: but I don't think that's where most of the juice
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: is in terms of growth, and and that's a hard
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: that's a hard case to make.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Culturally, I don't disagree with you. I think I think
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: where we are and technology has amplified this.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: So in the same way that the printing press created
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: sort of fast spread, we're now in an age where
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: the printing press is like ancient technology and we have
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: these other technologies that are sort of pushing out. And
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I think that what that creates is this sort of
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: fragmentation within society where anybody who wants to say anything
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: can say it with almost equal weight so long as
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: they can find an audience to say it too.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: And and we've just got to get our heads around
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: I personally, I think the only place I don't know
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: whether this is the solution, but I think there are
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: two solutions, right. Number one, I think there has to
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: be a coordinated effort to bring back some sense of
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: the teaching office. I think Tim Keller was on the
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: right road when he put out the New City Catechism.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: I think that's we need a new catechism for a
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: new age that can sort of guide and shape the
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: thinking of Christians across the board. I think that would
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: be fantastic and coordinate as many of us as possible.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of the solution. I
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: think the second part of the solution has to be
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: an individual conviction, cultivated to say, this media environment isn't
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: going away, but I need to make sure that the
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: media environment is not causing me to diminish the work
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: and the care and the community that comes along with
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: the local congregation.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but see here, here's the double edged sword to that.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: What you lose when you do that is entrepreneurialism and
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: aggressiveness and creativity and all that other kind of stuff.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: Somebody has said American religion is a mile wide and
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: an inch deep, and that's true. Because we said we're
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: going to let free enterprise work in religion, Yeah, you
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: got to work for it, man. And so it has
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: to stay close to the audience, because if it doesn't
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: stay close to the audience, it loses the audience. If
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: it loses the audience, it's out of business.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I don't disagree with that.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, I came out an online
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: higher EDMN, So yeah, this is a you know, like,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: this is one of those tensions you feel like, can
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: you preserve a sufficient degree of quality while giving people
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: this education through a means that is was I would
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: say non traditional right, and and and was disruptive within
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: the system, And.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: So I think it can be done. I think on
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: some levels.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: When we see these entrepreneurial ventures go, my big concern
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: with most of them is are we exercising any sort
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: of theological scruples as we do it?
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: And and sometimes I see that.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't, And obviously I shouldn't be the arbiter
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: or the sole arbiter of this, but I do find
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: that some of our we might call them, our cultural
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: institutions within Christianity are so eroding in their ability to
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: voice against some of these things that we've just got major,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: major problems.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: That I agree with, and that is incredibly disconcerting. I mean,
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: case in point, I spent a good portion of my
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: academic career beating on students about the teaching office, about
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: the necessity of tradition, about you know, this generation. Your
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: problem is not access to data. My generation was access
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: to data. I had card catalogs. I had to go
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: do three by five cards. I hand wrote papers. I
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: paid a girl a dollar a page to type it.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: We didn't have personal computers.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: We had typewriters.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Okay, your generation is not information is not The problem
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: is not getting information, it's being able to tell the
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: difference between good stuff and bad stuff. So, you know,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: I'd spent how to read a book, how to analyze
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: an article, and then here we are, and I flip
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: on Facebook and I watch former students, you know, just
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: spewing out the stuff from their little echo chamber. You know,
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: day after day, I'm either posting from the Blaze, Tucker Carlson,
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: or occupied Democrats.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: As if these are objective sources.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying there isn't truth to some of this stuff,
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: but assuming that this is objective sources, or you know,
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: how many sports figures have I read in the last
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: three days are dying of some disease. Somebody is cutting,
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: pasting a brain tumor.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Pray for this.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: Former Chicago Bear, he has a brain tumor. And then
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: you scan the next day and it says somebody on
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: the Cubs. And then the next day it's the former
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: coach of the University of Michigan.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: And then the next day and they just I mean,
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: it's the same article. They're just making stuff.
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: And then you read THO and you watch and I
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: know some of these people that are buying some of
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: this stuff, and you're like, I guess it just went
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: in one year and out the other.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: I don't, And.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: I feel, you know, we're making a defeatist broadcast here,
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: and I don't want.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: To do that.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: But the other side that is, I think it's important
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: that people begin.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: To stop, just stop.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: Where did this come from?
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: But who?
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: I used to make this case over and over again,
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: and I probably got in trouble at Moody. But I
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: would say, if I have to choose between my pastor
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: and the guy who's speaking in chapel, that's a no brainer.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: I have a coven relationship with my pastor.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: Who this guy is speaking in chapel. I don't know
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: what are his credentials somebody you know. And that doesn't
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: mean I can't be edified and I won't listen or
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: But you have a different relationship with that guy than
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you do your pastor. And so it's a it's a
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: different world that we swim in. And I don't I
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: actually don't think what we're saying is defeatist. What I
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: think we're saying is at least what I would say.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: We have to start somewhere. We can't continue to sit
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: back and think this is going to get fixed with
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: better information, literacy, you know, skills. I think that's part
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: of the solution. But at the end of the day,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: what has to be rebuilt is the teaching office.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Yes, and that.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: That is Protestant, Yeah, to pull this thing back and
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: is not Protestant in the sixteenth century Protestant movement is
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: not saying that every single individual has equal authority to
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: interpret the text as they see fit. They believed in
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: the teaching office every single person has has the right
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: to engage the Bible. Right, but everybody is not called
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: to be a teacher.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: But and there have to be.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: There have to be limits and boundaries that help people
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: understand as they're engaging the Bible, help them understand it
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: in appropriate fashion. Yes, not that it's like, hey, this
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: verse has to mean this thing, right, That's not what
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: the teaching office does. The teaching office provides a shape
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: and a context, we can almost say, within which reading
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: the Bible remains a faithful activity that seeks to where
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: somebody seeks to sit under the authority of that scripture,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: as opposed to, you know, claiming in a authority for
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: themselves that they don't have.
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: And that is absolutely where the loss of catechism has
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: killed us, because, at least in the past, if you
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: knew a catechism that functioned as a hermeneutics, as a
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: limiter of interpretation, so you were reading the Bible functionally
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: with the pastor in your ear. And when that is gone,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: and since very few pastors preach theological method of sermons anymore.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I've done exposition.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: But hardly anybody does theological or teaches people to think
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: theologically models it in the pulpit. So here we are,
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: and I think that's we resonate on. And that is
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: not a Protestant thing that is not a that's not
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: the way Protestantism should be.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Right, We've gone off the rails there, and so almost
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: what I would say, just to end this on a
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: positive note, would be to say, yeah, be more careful
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: about what you're looking at, be more careful about what
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: you're consuming and creating. Recognize that that when you're throwing
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: stuff out on social media, you are in some at
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: least minor way participating as a teacher of others, Like
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I have difficulty believing that that's not the case, right,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: and so take that seriously, like, I think that's a
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: you know, there's some minimal things that we could do.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: I like when I do consulting, I do near term, midterm,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: and long term, right, and so the mid near term,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: watch what you're watch what you're consuming, watch what you're creating,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: simple as that, right, you know. And then long term
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: we've got to look at re establishing the teaching office.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: That just has to be like, what does it look
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: like for your church to pick up a catechy and
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: actually run people through it? What does it look like
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: for your church to and even if it's just your church,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: maybe partnering with other churches doing this, you know, that
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: to me is a long term activity that all of
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: us have to commit to. But that is the way
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: out of this situation in my estimation.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I have occasionally online just posted I just want
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: to remember. I just want everybody who's writing this stuff
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: to remember. Number one, God hates liars and God hates slander. Yeah,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: and everything you post online is subject to thou shalt
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: not bear false witness. And if you think you're not
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: going to answer to the thrice Holy God for what
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: you put on social media, you're wrong. I don't care
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: if you agree with me or not. You're going to
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: explain to God why you thought it was okay to
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: post this political thing that is not true because it
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: was important for your side to win this little argument,
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: or that you didn't bother to look up to see
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: whether or not it was true, because it's important for
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: your side to win this little argument.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I focus, most of my focus has
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: been more on what I call ambulance chasing content.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I've heard it called grift based the grift industrial complex, right,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: where people are just sort of benefiting off scandals. But
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: when you look at the Old Testament, you look at
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: some of the laws related to bearing false witness. What
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: you see is that when you bear false witness, you
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: take on the penalty that you are seeking to get
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: put on to someone else. And we have largely lost
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: that accountability loop. We have no sense in which a
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: journalist or quasi journalist or blogger or whoever right content creator,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: when they put out something false, there is zero implications
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: for them until they do something so egregious that they
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: lose followers. They have no real skin in the game whatsoever.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: And I think it's just a we we missed that
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: aspect of it. We need to be far more careful
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: in who we're critiquing, how we're critiquing them, and making
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: sure that the stuff we're putting out is sufficiently true
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: and edifying that it can qualify as good teaching for
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: the church.
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: I did a Sunday school class in some seven. It's
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: about David being slandered.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I stood up and I held up my
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: phone and I said, ladies and gentlemen, you know what
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: this is. This is a weapon of mass destruction. Yeah,
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: you can destroy people. And if you think, I mean,
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: just let's just read what David says. Yeah, and let's
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: just go through the Bible, and see what God says
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: about people who slander. Yeah, well you know, well, well
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: he's pro abortion, and if you want to argue that point,
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: argue that point. But that doesn't give you the right
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: to lie about him about something else, right, you know,
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: it just doesn't.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Slander doesn't not. Slandering doesn't mean we can't disagree with someone.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: It means that we we disagree with them in an
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: appropriate manner, and we do not you know, pull them
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: in at hominem arguments, you know, arguments against the person.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: They don't they don't have to be evil people. The
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: whole the view that we don't happen to agree with, yep,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: And so we've got to be more careful with that.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: This has been helpful.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: I think we're catching a dynamic of Protestantism that is
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: is both the fuel that we need to continue growing
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: the church and the fuel that if we're not careful,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: we'll burn ourselves with the process.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I don't think the church ever goes away, and so
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: it's not a if we don't stop this, the church
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: is going to you know, be consumed with fire or
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: something crazy like that. It's just that this is probably
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: not going to be the most effective use. If we're
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: trying to heat our churches, throwing gas on the floor
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: is not the best move, right, right. We need to
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: keep that fire contained and put it in an appropriate
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: place so that you know, Okay, the occasional spark jumps
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: out and there's a problem that's going to happen. But
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: just spreading you know, gas all over the floor and
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: heating the walls, you know, heating the church by burning
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: the walls is not a good plan. And so we've
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: we've got to be somewhere in between there and continually
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: working to.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Contain some of these.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: More exaggerated we could call them gestures toward independence that
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I think maybe Protestantism engenders, but then also recognizing that
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: this is a very key aspect of what it means
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: to be Protestant, that entrepreneurial spirit, that autonomy, you know,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: that push, but autonomy doesn't mean no accountability. Well said,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: all right, Well we're going to close it out here.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: You know, we'll be back with more episodes. We're doing
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: the Great Awakening series later this year. We're going to
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: do some stuff on the Swiss Reformation, and just want
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: to encourage folks to go check out Ktelli's you can
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: you can see the I've got a link in the
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: show description for Katellis. It's Greg's travel company. And so
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: we do trips over to Germany and we talk German
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Reformation as well as World War Two. Now neither of
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: us we didn't really get into World War two and
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: those kind of things. There's another gentleman, Michael McDuffie, who
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: handles a lot more of that than either Greg or
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I do. But that tour does the German Reformation plus
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: World War Two. I just encourage you to check it out.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: There's one coming up in May. You can sign up for.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: These are relatively inexpensive trips. They're called tours for ten
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: because you basically we pile into a couple of vans.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: It's really comfortable and Greg and I drive, Mike is
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: sort of around and you've got a three to one
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: ratio essentially to talk with people who are knowledgeable about
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: these subjects and just enjoy your time in Germany. So
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: my encourage movie to check that out. Click the link,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: check out the site there and if you've got the
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: time in May, we chuer love to have you. So
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: we are also doing a Switzerland trip later in the year.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: There's still spot left in that trip. And Greg is
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: going to England, jolly old England to do C. S.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Lewis and Whitfield.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: Field and Wesley and George Mueller.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: George Mueller.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah so yeah.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: So Germany we do the Holocaust, which is a wonderful
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: way to talk about civil responsibility, et cetera, et cetera.
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: Switzerland we do a lot of church and state stuff
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: because now we're into Antabaptists, Amish, those sorts of folks,
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: Mennonites as long as well as John Calvin of course,
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: and a guy named Zwingley who some of you may
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: know something about. And then England we do the the
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: English Reformation, Henry the Eighth, et cetera, John Wesley, George Whitfield,
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: and then C. S. Lewis, J R. R. Tolkien and
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: George Mueller. And that's what Jerry Rude, who's been on
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: Jerry and I have been on with you before, and
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: Jerry is encyclopedic and dynamic.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: When it comes to Cus Lewis.
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: So if you're interested in that, join us.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I'll put the link to that episode in the show
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: notes as well here, so you can reach out and
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: do that that was one of the that was pretty
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: popular episodes, so you'll probably enjoy that if you haven't.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: Listened to it yet.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: But Greg all was a pleasure. This has been a
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: great series. I've learned a lot. I always enjoy going
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: back through this time period. I think it does help
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: frame out what we're doing today and really important topic
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: and I think you just get more of this when
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: you get over actually in Germany. So absolutely, Yeah, being
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: in place and talking about these things, seeing the sites,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: understanding where it happened really crucial. And so just encourage
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: you to check out the site and the trip. But
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: thanks for listening to the series, Thanks for listening to
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: this episode, and we'll catch you on the next one.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Take care of everybody.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.