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35. Understanding ADHD and Money with Christine Hargrove, PhD · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Caring in the long run is something you have to decide for yourself what your rubric is going to be, what counts as enough.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's true if you're caring for you know your parents who are aging.
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SPEAKER_01: You decide when you're not in the moment, what is enough for me to feel like I've done my role.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: I've been a good daughter, I've been a good mother, I've been a good friend.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: Fill in the blank.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: What is enough caring by my own standards and write it down?
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't put a limit on it, it's a limitless concept.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, hi.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: I should probably introduce myself.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I am joined by my friend and colleague, Christine Hargrove.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: Christine, welcome to the show.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being on here.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: So for those of you who may not be familiar with Christine, she is a professor at UGA and director of the Love and Money Center there, just right up the road from me, which is wonderful.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, we don't see each other as often as what we would like.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Sadly, so Christine's also an MFT, a marriage and family therapist like myself, and also a financial therapist and approved supervisor for MFTs as well.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: So she has a vast array of knowledge around financial therapy, working with clients, but specifically around ADHD, which is why I've brought her on here today, is to talk to all of us, all of you, around understanding a little bit more around what ADHD is, what are maybe some of the misconceptions in terms of how we maybe hear about it, but also how it shows up in financial planning and some tips and tricks and tools, all of that practical stuff that you as an advisor can take from this conversation and utilize in your client meetings if ADHD does show up.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: So, Christine, all of that good knowledge there.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think I know I shared a lot kind of there about you, but I didn't share everything.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: And so, can you maybe fill in the gaps a little bit around what kind of work that you do?
3:34
SPEAKER_00: I know that you're a professor, you're an MFT, but what does that really look like?
3:37
SPEAKER_00: How did you also, as an MFT, get interested in working with and around money?
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I love talking about this.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: So I'm so excited to be here.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: So, in my role here at UTA, um in the clinical assistant professor role, I teach a class every fall, spring, and summer.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: So right now I'm doing the undergraduate internship in couple and family therapy.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: So I have these wonderful upperclassmen who are uh exploring the idea of maybe they want to be therapists, but they also get to do so in an environment where we have part of what we do here at the Love and Money Center is we provide individual couple and family therapy and financial coaching and planning services.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: And those students are in the uh behavioral finance, financial therapy graduate certificate program.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: So they've been trained in financial therapy modalities.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: They are overseen by uh Christy Archuletta, Ben Hampton, and a bunch of the team over there.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: So my interns get to see like the all of the things happening, which is just this this one, I love that their first view of what it might mean to be an MFT is that money matters, that mental health matters, but money matters, and that these things are not separate.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: So I I love that role.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm also so as assistant director of the Love and Money Center, I get to work with Dr.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: Megan Ford a lot.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: She's the director, and so we work really hand in hand to promote visibility of what we're doing, to do, we do a lot of campus engagement, community engagement, and we do some research.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: So we get to do some research here.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: We get to do a lot of a wide variety of things, which is wonderful for me and for my attention span.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: So I really thrive in an environment where I have a lot of different things coming up on a daily, day-to-day basis.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: I got interested in financial therapy and the financial part of individual couple and family well-being here actually at UGA.
5:25
SPEAKER_01: Came here to do my doctorate.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: I already knew I wanted to do ADHD.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: I'd already been specializing in ADHD, and I wanted to do a doctorate in couple and family therapy to extend that and have it be, have some protected time to really delve into the research, cross-reference stuff because it was leaning into an area that was under-researched, under-supported, and really there wasn't a way clinically to know that I had gained competency.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: So, right out the gate, got asked if I would be willing to take on some financial therapy clients in a supervised way, because they had a wait list here at the clinic for financial therapy couples.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: So couples that were and individuals who were really struggling with financial stress, with financial conflict, of just not, I mean, some of it had to do with planning, but also like, how do we even talk about this?
6:09
SPEAKER_01: Is this okay to talk about?
6:11
SPEAKER_01: We're not even ready to work with a planner because we can't get, like, we can't even bring ourselves to the table.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: I thought it sounded pretty interesting.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: And I said, well, if I'll get supervised, I'll learn more about it.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm usually up for things that sound interesting.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: So I jumped right in, found out immediately, loved it.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: So useful.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: And then it didn't take more than, I don't know, maybe another month before I recognized how valuable it was for ADHDers.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: So the financial side, so I got really into researching the links between ADHD and financial well-being, financial behavior, financial beliefs, so your confidence, your self-efficacy about your finances, and then like how that was linked to outcomes.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: And my dissertation was on ADHD symptoms and couples and their relationships and finances.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: So it was a quantitative dyadic data analysis, but I got really into I had a triangle like one corner is the ADHD, and then couples and finances.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And so I was really looking at their self-efficacy, so their belief, their ability to do the things that they needed to do in that domain of life to get to the outcome in the areas of their relationship and their finances and how that worked out.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: All right.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I have so many, so many good questions, follow-ups there.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: But let's, you know, before I just jump into the deep end, maybe let's pull back a little bit and just talk a little bit about like what is ADHD?
7:34
SPEAKER_00: I know, and just kind of culturally, it gets thrown out a lot.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of self-diagnosis.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: There's also a lot of misconceptions, gender differences, like just kind of all the things.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: But and we probably don't have time to talk about all the things around what ADHD is.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: But for financial advisors who are listening, like what would you want them to know about like just what is ADHD?
7:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so very high level.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: It is highly genetic.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: That's the main way anybody would have it.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: There's a little bit of acquired ADHD.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: It's mostly traumatic brain injury.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: It's about four and a half to five percent of the adult population in the United States.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: It's present worldwide.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: They've done a bunch of studies.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty consistent.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: The rates are pretty consistent.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Children are diagnosed at a higher rate, but um, some of that has to do with when you're diagnosing a child, you're asking the adults around them of their experience of the child.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: When you are diagnosing an adult, you're asking the adult.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: ADHDers tend to underreport symptoms.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: So there's a bit of a drop off when they start asking the person with ADHD about the symptoms versus everybody else around them.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: So some estimates have it at higher than 5%.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: It is primarily a disorder around executive functions.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: So there's hyperactive, inattentive, and then the combined presentation.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: So the hyperactive impulsive, and then the inattentive, and then the combined is kind of a little bit of everything.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: I would say a few important things to know.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Number one, overall, research has been done time and time again, it is not overdiagnosed.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: There are a few pockets of the population where it is statistically overdiagnosed, and those pockets of the population are also the same ones that are undertreated.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: So somebody might be more likely to get a false diagnosis, but even if they do, they're not actually going to be effectively treated most of the time.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: It tends to present differently across genders and also across the lifespan.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's really important to recognize.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, with little boys, we tend to see more overt, um, you know, can't stop moving, can't stop fidgeting.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you also can't see that with little girls too.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's nature versus nurture.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of debates about that.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: And there's definitely more pressure on girls to hold it in.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Um so you will hear more adult women.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: That's the fastest growing, most likely to be diagnosed population, like new diagnoses, because there is so much self-censoring, masking is which is can actually be kind of stressful.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: You see a lot of little girls that um that they might be coming across more inattentive, tend to daydream, or they're talking all the time.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes it's like they get in trouble for different things, or they get, you know, certain things are more acceptable in the different genders.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's part of it.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: What I think is really interesting though is that the hyperactive and impulsive symptoms sort of morph sometime in adolescence and in early adulthood.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: So you won't see quite as much that feeling of constant restlessness.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: You won't see that always expressed through fidgeting.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: You still will see some of it, but you know, like not to the level of maybe like a 10-year-old boy, you would see a lot of physicality to it.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: In both men and women, it will shift into impulsive decisions.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: So what these are things to look for.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: If there's a history of job changes, career changes, relationship changes, unexpected purchases, not that there's not thought to them at all, but where it's like, man, this person has just had like thing after thing after thing.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And some of it may be explained by a circumstance, like it wasn't a choice.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times, like the person just didn't want to be a teacher anymore, or just, you know, so you'll you'll sort of hear that.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: And you also hear, you'll catch with with women there are some hormonal connections.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: So, especially in perimenopausal or menopausal women, the the hormonal shifts will bring out more of the ADHD symptoms than there were before.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of adult women, even ones who know they have ADHD, boy, they hit menopause and they're like, I don't know what is going on with me.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, do I have dementia?
11:42
SPEAKER_01: I hear that a lot.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, is this what this is?
11:44
SPEAKER_01: And no, it's actually just the exacerbation of the symptoms because of the hormonal shifts.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: And that really matters for financial planners who in particular are trying to have key financial conversations with clients in that age range.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: And then that that client may be struggling with forgetfulness, tracking conversations, like stuff that they're and sometimes they're getting worried.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, do I need to be preparing for long-term memory care?
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's going on with me?
12:13
SPEAKER_01: It might not, it could be, but it might also be the ADHD.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: And maybe they didn't even realize they had ADHD or they were, they've coped so well for so long, and then it just hits that breaking point and they can't cope anymore.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: I love how you kind of explained how it can morph and like shift throughout one's life and it can look differently, even just across genders and and and show up differently.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: And you gave a lot of just really great examples there around how it might show up for advisors, because I would imagine, you know, unless a client just kind of out the gate says, like, oh yeah, well, I got diagnosed with ADHD like five years ago, like, unless they're just transparent and forthcoming about a diagnosis, probably as an advisor, have no idea, but you might see things behaviorally like forgetfulness, showing up, you know, maybe late to scheduled meetings or forgetting to show up.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: To me, it's over scheduling or double booking, you know, even things like procrastination, like waiting until just kind of the last minute, or a sense of like over-stimulation and overwhelm, taking big things.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Like one of the things I talk about with advisors is hey, like a task like calling to get a quote for insurance might sound very simple, right?
13:33
SPEAKER_00: And for some people, it is.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: It is just as simple as like, okay, I just need to call Robbie and start the process.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: But for folks who may struggle with ADHD, like to just call about insurance, like that can be a mountain for them.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: So I think you offer just a lot of great just kind of insight there, right?
13:55
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't just stereotypically look like I know a lot of people think about the seven-year-old little boy that's bouncing off the walls and like won't sit still and is like, you know, chatterbox.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And like that's not always what ADHD looks like across the lifespan, but also, you know, from a gender standpoint as well.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: So okay, if we have kind of now maybe a framework for like what ADHD is and a little bit of context here around like from an adult standpoint, I love to hear just from your work, but also your own kind of clinical experience too.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: Like for people, male or female that do you know have ADHD, like can we talk a little bit more specifically around the relationship with money?
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are some things that are difficult?
14:46
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned executive functioning there.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I'd love to kind of dive into a little bit more of that intersection there with ADHD and their relationship or behavior around money.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the emotional side, I want to lead with that because I think that that's the stuff that a lot of financial planners don't know about some unique aspects of ADHD and money that are really important to know.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: I would say a huge thing that I see most especially, not entirely uniquely, but overwhelmingly with my clients with ADHD is that money management feels like the final level of adulthood, that they never quite feel confident that they have reached it.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: And so they may be really confident in like they're great at their job and they're a really good parent or fill in the blank, right?
15:38
SPEAKER_01: Like they may be confident in many other things.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: And then when it comes to talking about money, suddenly they feel young, they feel embarrassed, they feel like I should have figured this out.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: There's this like whole other version.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: It's like when you, I don't know, you go back into like your grandma's house and like suddenly you feel like young again, and you're calling, you know, you're not saying I'm gonna go to the restroom, you're talking about going to the potty.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't, you know, you just kind of like regress.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: I think with ADHD, it feels like this is the level of adulting that everybody else has figured out but me.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: And I am kidding myself and everyone around me for even trying.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: So there's this like regression to embarrassment and a lack of confidence.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes there's this combination of like overconfidence, like, yeah, it's gonna be fine.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: But if you really are like, but let's talk about the numbers, they're kind of like, how about we not?
16:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's because it feels like I'm not really a grown-up.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: If I can't figure this out and I should have figured it out by now, and I don't think I'm afraid that you'll treat me like a kid and I feel like a kid, and it does not feel good.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, that's deep.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's deep.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe the word shame kind of comes to mind there, right?
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Like a sense of like just shame and not figuring it out or not knowing how to do something that adults should, right?
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Putting these in air quotes, right, should like know how, know how to do.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: So emotionally, right, I'm hearing what you're saying is that it can show up and you know, from a lack of confidence standpoint, a worry about perception not feeling, you know, like an adult, even though chronologically they they are.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: That I think is you're right, is important from an emotional standpoint.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, do you see that show up just in the way that they talk?
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, are there maybe some I'm thinking about like verbal kind of cues that might be helpful, like if an advisor hears a client kind of say certain phrases that that might be like an indicator around some of that lack of confidence, or you know, I'll say shame, that's my word, but something kind of more deeply emotional.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you will.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes people will just say, like, I feel really embarrassed right now.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: I would say more often you'll hear references to like the past or maybe to people from their past, like, oh, my dad would roll over in his grave if he knew.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: You'll hear those references, or you'll hear, like, I did learn math, like I did learn this stuff.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's like you can hear them switching back to like high school or, you know, like you'll hear these past references and almost like I'm apologizing as a human right now.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: You'll hear a tone of apology and kind of like, I guess I'm just not good at this.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: I've also okay, so I know you work with couples too.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: And as I'm listening to you here, I'm also thinking about couples where I've heard like one partner maybe kind of say to you that like, aren't you proud of me?
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, see, I did like I figured this out, or like, see, I do understand this, right?
18:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm turning right now to like my imaginary partner who is over here, like to the side as I'm telling you.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: Um so for those watching the video as I'm turning to the side, it's my supposed to be Clayton who's not here right now.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: But like I hear that maybe from couples that I'm you know just kind of thinking if that, if those are also it might be playful, right?
19:01
SPEAKER_00: It could be with some playful tone, but maybe those are I don't know, anything else just kind of around that couple's piece that maybe you might hear or see to where Shane might show up or embarrassment.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: I think you'll hear avoidance.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: You recognize avoidance by the effects of it, but you can't really see it because it's actually, I mean, it's like wind, right?
19:23
SPEAKER_01: Like it's there, you know it's there, but like you more see that, like, wow, they they really picked up on a different topic.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Like this other thing happened, but the avoidance of that thing was really like it almost was a just a net zero.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: They just didn't pick it up.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes people will change the topic, they will maybe kind of say something minor enough to, you know, skate by, like, you know, when you write just enough on the essay in high school, like to like hopefully I got at least like one out of five points so that I don't fail, you know, where you're like, just put anything, you know, it'll be kind of that, like just filler.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And they may be trying, and that's like often a combination of embarrassment, but it's also sometimes like a nobody wants to show up and disappoint their planner.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Like they want you to like them.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: I want people to like, especially if I'm showing up to a relationship with somebody I think might be able to help me.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, I want them to want to help me and not to judge me.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes there's a little bit of social desirability efforts that will go into, and what that means is like I'm not confident enough that you will like me or that you will approve of my efforts or that you will be impressed with me.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna try to compensate and be like super likable.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: You'll see that with ADHD, it's like really charming, and then try to just kind of like, how about we just sort of go right around the thing that I don't want to talk about, even though that's exactly what I'm here to talk about.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: I've certainly seen that within therapy, which is always, you know, somewhat I say comical, just because my style is such that I like to be like, hey, great job on getting me off topic.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Like one point for you, right?
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we've talked a little bit about like the emotional side as far as what ADHD and like the intersection of like money really kind of looks like there.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Talk to me a little bit about maybe some of the other parts or other pieces there.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so disorganization, time blindness.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: So time blindness, there's there's a there's a couple of different sort of forms of it.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: And there's a little bit of debate about exactly which is the right term.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: So there's the I think they're actually related though.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: There is the form of time blindness where like you don't actually know what day it is.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Like you don't feel the passage of time as much as a neurotypical person would.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel like September.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily feel like any month.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Like you, that kind of like internal sense of time is less like a metronome and more like an accordion based on how interested you are in or like how bored you are, time stretches.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: Like that's actually what it's like most of the time with ADHD.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Just when you're particularly bored or particularly interested in something.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: That's like every day.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: There's also the time blindness in terms of having a lot of difficulty really seeing the future and connecting to the future.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: So temporal discounting happens with everybody, right?
22:13
SPEAKER_01: So like we sort of value$100 today more than even like the$100 with even more interest in two years.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Like that's a behavioral finance thing with ADHD, it's a lot worse.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: There's kind of now and not now.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And that also includes like, you know, what else is not now is like me last year.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: So like, you know, whether I did something amazing that I want to repeat, or if I did something terrible that I want to avoid, like that was like not now.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's much, much, much harder to connect past self, current self, and future self.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: And I know that sounds a little psychology heavy, that really matters for financial planning because I think something that's very common with financial planners is they will start out with like, what are your goals?
22:54
SPEAKER_01: Which I love that.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I want to help you live the life you want.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: So what are your goals?
22:59
SPEAKER_01: What do you want to have in retirement?
23:00
SPEAKER_01: For most ADHDers, it is like a deer in headlights moment because it feels like you are talking about a time that does not exist in my mind and it doesn't like future me as a bit of a caricature of what I imagine might happen.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's very vague, it's much foggier.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: So if you are really leaning into the model of like, I want to crystallize your goals, what I see is that, you know, for social desirability, like you'll have an you know, a client with ADHD will end up kind of buying into whatever you're suggesting, but they're not actually like they don't really feel it.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: And so a way that can be really, really helpful, this has to do with executive functioning, with the nonverbal working memory is where all the pictures come from in your brain.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And then the verbal working memory is the the language, the list, the words.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: And those often don't connect very well with ADHD.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: And so you may be saying, like, how much you know income do you want to draw down?
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Or what do you envision for this, or what do you envision for that?
24:03
SPEAKER_01: Use as many picture painting words as possible, like color, texture, how old will your kids be when that happens?
24:11
SPEAKER_01: Do you think they will have kids?
24:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, take a few extra minutes and just ask some more questions that help them have this more vivid picture in their minds of like what is retirement?
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Not just, I mean, age, yes, but like, do you want to live where it's warm?
24:27
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to live where it's cold?
24:28
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to shovel snow?
24:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you think you might have a dog?
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Do you think you would want to go on walks with a dog?
24:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know this sounds kind of silly, but it actually helps that when you're asking about a client's financial goals, you're actually asking for them to cue up a whole bunch of nonverbal working memory images.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: And it's not that easy to call up those images and you can help with that.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: Like it's actually pretty, you do this all the time.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: You just don't realize, like, I need to help you paint this picture by providing a lot of options.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: I feel like there was more to your question.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: No, I think you did a great, I think you did a great job.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: And actually, you know, this kind of time blindness, right, concept that we were talking about, really like the visual piece that you are talking about and like connecting that to future self, you know, as humans in general, like we just have a hard time like imagining like the future.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: So in general, like that is just a hard, harder thing.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: So I am very quickly approaching 40.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And it is hard for me, you know, when I talk about quote unquote retirement, that chapter in my life where I'm like 60 and 70, like that's in another 20, 30 years.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, it's hard for me to step into that place because it's so far.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: I can only imagine for someone, you know, if you're working with a client who's in their 40s, right?
25:53
SPEAKER_00: Between 40, 40, 50, and you start asking those questions around, you know, retirement, you know, knowing that 55, right?
26:01
SPEAKER_00: That's not now like for some clients, like that's not uncommon.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, well, that's only, you know, maybe 10, five years down.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Like that might be really hard for them to think about.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: And so the skill, the questions there, there that you are offering, I think is really valuable for clients just in general.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: But I hear you, and that more specifically for clients who are ADHD, like even more so, like getting into the nitty-gritty and using those sensory descriptive words there around what that might look like or be like or feel like and trying to cue up kind of the visual piece.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a brilliant strategy just as a whole to use with all clients.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: So I want to say that.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: And also it makes it also makes a lot of sense though, for like ADHDers as well.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: You've mentioned like the term executive functioning.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe just kind of quick definition, but then also like, is are there any other like strategies or anything, I guess, kind of in addition to like executive functioning and that relationship with money and maybe how it shows up and like what it looks like.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I like to use Russell Barclay's model of the seven executive functions.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: So these are, I'll list them off, but you can also look them up.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: So they develop in order, like from infancy on up, and then and they also layer, like once you've developed them.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: So they work in tandem.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: Um so the first one is self-awareness when babies figure out they have feet, you see them, they're so cute.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: The next one is inhibition.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: You can see that moment when a toddler actually stops themselves from doing something.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: The next two are nonverbal working memory and verbal working memory.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: I think that those are the heavyweights, honestly.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: Those are the those are the ones that are almost always the issue.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: And they're also the ones that nobody ever really knows about.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I think of them like thing one and thing two in Cat in the Hat, you know, like you know that there's a problem, you just can't really tell them apart, and you can't really know like what's going on.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I do think about working memory.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: So memories are stored.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Like working memory is like the counter in a kitchen, and your memories might be in the pantry.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Like we store all kinds of memories.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: The working memory is like what's actually out on the counter that you can manipulate with your mind that you can work with, that you have access to right now while you're trying to do something.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: So the pictures, the sensations that you know you've ever smelled something and it suddenly brought you back to like that's a nonverbal memory, right?
28:32
SPEAKER_01: So there's nonverbal working memory and verbal working memory.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: And then the last three are the last three to uh develop in order, and they're also the ones that everybody knows more about, which are emotion regulation, motivation, and then planning and problem solving.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: And the way I talk to folks is our temptation, the normal way of handling it is to go top down.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: I envision the executive functions like a Jenga tower.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: If there are holes in the bottom, no amount of like over-scaffolding the top will fix it.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: It actually just makes it crash.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: So if you have a client that comes in and they are really struggling with some stuff and you're like, let me show you how to use a calendar, or the next one down would be the motivation, like I'm gonna pressure you into.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: It is really important that you bring in this worksheet filled out because if you don't, you will miss all these deadlines.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And then the third one, you know, when we get down to emotion regulations, you tell people to calm down.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh or you just say like vaguely, it'll be okay.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: It'll be okay.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: You don't need to worry.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about that.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And if the problem is that, like, if the problem is with self-awareness or inhibition, maybe they've set up this an example.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: If they've set up, like, I'm supposed to log in and pay my bills at eight o'clock on Tuesday, and you're like, well, what else are you doing?
29:47
SPEAKER_01: What are you doing at 759?
29:49
SPEAKER_01: And they've got this list of all the stuff, and you're like, you're not going to be able to inhibit yourself from doing these other things in favor of paying your bills.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not reasonable.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: You can't.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's too difficult to stop doing that behavior at any point in time, much less stop doing that behavior to do something you know you don't like to do.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: So, like when you can catch on to what the, you know, what the issues are at the bottom, usually the top three resolve themselves.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: So that's executive functions.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: I want to get back to the verbal and the nonverbal working memory, because I think that that's where um there are some really straightforward things that planners can do to be really helpful to their clients.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times clients will say, like, man, I've never had a session.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, I actually feel good going out of this.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: I've never like met with a planner and felt good about this.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: And they don't always know like what's different.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: So um with nonverbal working memory, a really key point is to use graphs, use charts and not like fast charts.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Like keep it out on the table, leave it sitting out.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Don't just like fly through a slideshow.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Leave it sitting out, hand it to them on a piece of paper, let them digest it.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's it's difficult to do because when you do things like that, like you understand the graph because you made it, or you've looked at it, they're seeing it for the first time.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: So letting them have some time, letting them have some space, say what questions do you have?
31:12
SPEAKER_01: Don't, do you have any questions?
31:13
SPEAKER_01: What questions do you have?
31:15
SPEAKER_01: See if they, when you're, when you're if you're handing them a spreadsheet, like if they can't talk you through a table and tell you the story of the table, they don't understand it yet.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: So you should not move forward until they understand it.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: Um and with the verbal working memory, I think it is a wonderful move to have the agenda sitting out.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: And then as you go through the steps in the process, whatever aspect you're talking about, if you're talking about here's a number for this, and maybe you're running a few different scenarios, like we could do it this way, we could do it this way, figure out a way to continue to make that visible in another place on your desk so that they can see the differences because the less effort you're making their counter wider.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: But if you are, if they're trying to hold it all in their mind and you're flying through it because you're like, I know the stuff and I've already figured out like what's the optimal solution, they're still trying to hold the last one, hold the next one, and they know there's supposed to be room for the next one.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: So they're piling all the ingredients up on their little bitty counter, and it's actually not very enjoyable.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's enough fun to cook in a kitchen that small.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: I've done it.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: And so when you make space, like literally make space for the to externalize the verbal working memory, the numbers that you just threw out, write them down, stick them on a post-it, and put them on the table so that they can focus on what you're saying now because they don't have to try to hold on to that last thing that you just flew through.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm thinking even like tech-wise too, there's some easy ways to kind of do that and use tech, right?
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Like notes, you know, and just kind of keeping them simple, right?
32:47
SPEAKER_00: And not, you know, just as you said, maybe just having kind of those numbers there so that they can take those in and digest them.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: So even if it's not in person, there are some tech.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: So I have a I use Mac.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: I know that there's some strong opinions about Mac versus PC.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: So feel free to judge me accordingly.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, there are like the post-its, the stickies within there.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: And so how easy is that to just kind of type out, you know, a few things and like as you're sharing your screen, like it's there, right?
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Like for clients.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: All of that makes sense.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: And I I actually really appreciate, I've heard you talk before when you know, when I've heard you speak, and so about, you know, kind of those seven areas, layers around executive function.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: And I always appreciate just kind of hearing them again because I'm like, ah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: And so what a great just kind of framework, even for advisors to be able to have.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Not that you have to be an expert or even diagnose, that is not what we're talking here, but just to know, like that, you know, when we talk about ADHD, right, or executive functioning, like, you know, there are a lot of different, you know, layers, subdomains, kind of parts to it.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes even just knowing, like, okay, maybe, yeah, well, they do have and struggle with some self-awareness.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, like maybe there's something there.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I should go back and listen to more of Christine's stuff to see what she says about it.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I appreciate you sharing all of that.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: Now, I want to go back because you mentioned something earlier around genetics and ADHD.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: And that to me just kind of brings up family systems when I hear genetics.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And so, with the prevalence of adult diagnoses, right?
34:31
SPEAKER_00: Particularly, I know you could have mentioned an adult women, there may be clients that advisors work with who are that G1, right?
34:41
SPEAKER_00: Kind of generation.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: And they might say, like, yeah, like, you know, my oldest, he's 30, he really struggles with ADHD.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: We're having to, you know, help him out like financially with things because he's just pretty terrible, like with money and he changes jobs like all the time, and like we don't really know what to do there.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: You might be working with a client on the parent side who has adult children with ADHD.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And so, as an NFT, right?
35:09
SPEAKER_00: I know that this is also something you know, we talk family systems there.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Can you give maybe some practical just kind of tools, tips, tricks, scripts there around how advisors can talk to that generation one, those parents there when they have adult kids that have ADHD?
35:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: So the first thing is um a lot of that comes up with cash flow.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: Like the big questions are big questions, and they boil down to cash flow on a month to month.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Because can we flow this?
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Can we help with this?
35:44
SPEAKER_01: And the answer is kind of like maybe we could.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: So almost having a like really being clear on the numbers, making sure that your clients are not just set, you know, in the long run, but that they understand their cash flow so that when they are approached with an ask or they have an idea of something we could help with, they have really solid numbers that are current about my current cash flow so they can make a decision more quickly without having to just wing it.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: And then if you can take it one step further and have them go ahead and kind of either officially have a line item in their budget or have an unofficial up to this, we like we will make peace with this.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: I think that you know, getting into boundaries and and like should or shouldn't, that's a lot of times that's way outside of what financial planners want to deal with.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, people love their kids.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: And if even if people are super angry at their kids, they love they love their kids.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Like it's a complicated feeling.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: And so just accepting and saying, you know, if kid A or Kid B, like if they, you know, in general, like what would be an amount that would feel okay, that would feel somewhat fair.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: I think you will hear a lot of should.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: I should have been a better parent, or they should be able to get their act together.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: And and this part actually depends.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, some financial planners would not say this, and some financial planners are a little more like maybe straight shooters or their style, but like don't shoot all over yourself.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Like that's not helpful.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: So that's a good approach.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: I think another thing that I say when I'm working with clients with ADHD or with their their parents, I hear, I definitely hear the adult children with ADHD, I hear from their parents a lot.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: And I will use the line if that worked, it would have worked by now.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: So like let's just put it to bed.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: If it worked, it would have worked.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: And and there's something about that permission to just call a spade a spade that opens up a lot of creativity in families.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: It opens up a lot of possibilities because usually people are stuck in this rut of should, should, should, knowing full well it won't work.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: And it feels like an exercise in futility.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: So having an external person say, well, if that worked, it would have worked, right?
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what are other things that you might be interested in trying?
37:57
SPEAKER_01: What are other options?
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just a great way to calm that fear.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: And I think the last thing, and this is Friedman, Carl Friedman, caring is a limitless concept.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's true for just about everybody.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: It's it's so rare that somebody would turn to you and say, I feel cared enough.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you care enough about me.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: I feel fully cared for.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: You can stop.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm cared enough about by you.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: Nobody says that.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: And so we're just chasing this moving target because what we want is to have cared, for them to feel cared for.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: Nobody turns around and gives permission for you to stop.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: You don't give yourself permission to stop.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: And it's actually a limitless concept.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: There is no end.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: It's not like a race where there's an end.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: Caring is caring.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: It's a cyclical sustainability game.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is when you use that line, caring is a limitless concept, it doesn't mean that putting a limit on your caring makes it not caring.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: And that's specifically about the money.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: So, like adult parents of adult children who are struggling financially, struggling with choices, will feel like, well, if we only give them X amount, if we put a limit on this, then that negates the caring.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: But caring in the long run is something you have to decide for yourself, what your rubric is going to be, what counts as enough.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's true if you're caring for, you know, your parents who are aging.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: You decide when you're not in the moment, what is enough for me to feel like I've done my role?
39:22
SPEAKER_01: I've been a good daughter, I've been a good mother, I've been a good friend.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: Fill in the blank.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: What is enough caring by my own standards and write it down?
39:31
SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't put a limit on it, it's a limitless concept.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: That's pretty deep.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: And I love that from a quote standpoint.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: It's a great quote for many reasons.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: One, like for clients in these scenarios when they're working, you know, with helping their clients with their adult kids, with them, you know, for the client themselves, like the limits, right, in communicating like care and connecting it to, you know, values and well-being, advisors like for themselves and how they give.
39:57
SPEAKER_00: I think that that is a fantastic statement there that I would encourage all of you listening right now to give a little bit more thought, maybe to that, maybe just in general, not just around like clients like with ADHD or adult parents, you know, clients that uh have adult kids that maybe you're working with and helping there.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Okay, Christine.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: As we sadly have to put a limit to our conversation, please know that the limit to our conversation does not mean I do not care about this topic.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: That was excellent.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: That was excellent.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: Well done.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Um as we sadly have to put a limit to our conversation.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else that you would like to leave advisors with, but also to include like where can they, where can they find you?
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Where can they hang out with you?
40:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the last one first.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: So check me out.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: You can contact me at UGA at the Love and Money Center.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: You can look me up.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm probably pretty visible.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: You can Google my name and find me.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh I've got some some websites and I've got some uh some publications and stuff.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: So always love to hear questions and um I love to nerd out on this.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: Any other things?
41:08
SPEAKER_01: I talk to ADHDers a lot.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: So I regularly present at the International Conference on ADHD.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: I talk to groups, I talk to individuals, and you have no idea the demand and the desire for financial planners to exist who look at ADHDers as a person, not as a problem.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: A person who has problems, who has challenges, but is not they themselves a problem.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: And so destigmatizing it whenever possible, say if you happen to have people with ADHD in your own family, like just drop that into conversation if you can.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: You can, however, you want to mark, but if you're comfortable working with neurodivergent folks, like say it outright because the demand is there and the sense of futility is there.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm always encouraging folks with ADHD who talk to me about how they can't find a planner, they don't think it's possible.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: I keep saying, I think it is possible.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, there are people who care about this and they are working to get good at working with you.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: So help them find you.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love that.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Put yourself out there, be vulnerable.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: Scream it from the mountain top.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, maybe, or maybe not from the mountaintop, but uh if it works, if it works, yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: But certainly put it out there so that they can find you.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, Christine, I appreciate so much you coming on and nerding out with me uh here today.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure that we include links to all of those places that you mentioned where others can find you.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: And thank you to every one of you who took the time to listen to this conversation today with Christine and I.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you for allowing us into your ears, into your mind.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: And we hope that you guys have not only just a fantastic day, but also that you check out some of the resources mentioned and do a little bit of learning, do a little bit of exploration there.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: If you found this episode valuable, if you found it helpful in any way, please feel free to subscribe, rate us, follow us, all of those good things uh there so that you never miss uh an episode like this one when it releases.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: And until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.