Latest / Pod Therapy / #421: Friends Hurting Friends, What is Trauma, Grieving Absentee Father

Transcript

#421: Friends Hurting Friends, What is Trauma, Grieving Absentee Father · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This lady has died.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, so everybody went from respiratory mold it.
• 0:06
  Speaker 3: Will don't say that because might be Jim's statute of
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: limitations on.
• 0:12
  Speaker 4: Murderer.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Oh. I was like, I don't know what to feel
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: about one.
• 0:18
  Speaker 4: There's only one thing to feel.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: So you know what.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: The short, the short version of the story is she
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: didn't clean the place out before she left, so bitch.
• 0:26
  Speaker 5: Oh my god.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's definitely worse than nix p and E. To
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: be honest, I really thought Nick was going to be
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: the villain of today's episode.
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: Come out Clean Again from Fabulous Las Vegas, Nomanta. This
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: is pot Therapy, real people, real problems, and real therapists.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: You can see your questions.
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: And I'm gonna say pod therapy time mat or emails
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: a pod therapy guys at gmail dot com and now
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: broadcasting from the unnamed studio. That's Jim, that's Whitney.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: And Neck time for the pod reminder. You can name
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: our studio at patreon dot com slash therapy. I think
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: it's twenty bucks, and we have a little form that
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: you could submit and you can pretty much tell us
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: whatever you want and Nick will read it. He is
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Ron Burgundy. She is a hot supple nineteen whatever you write,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: so feel free to do that. And you can also
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: hear about Nick breaking the law. I don't know, potentially
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: breaking the law. It's in the he burgled, He hamburgled.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: I mean he certainly thought there was a possibility of
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: a physical altercation. I did.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I was ready for ready, yes, using a lot of
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: lots picking tricks. So, and you can hear about Whitney,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: who's definitely not a murderer. I mean, I don't think.
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: She's a murderer.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Judge for yourself.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. We report you decide. That's right, America.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: You get to decide for yourselves. Patreon dot com, slash therapy.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: As we cruise along, and.
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: They call that being a doctor.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: A standard ground.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: That's right, stood my own ground. I mean I own
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: it lives there too, but I own this before we
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: jump into our questions. We did get a response letter
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: from last week and it was a very very I
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: think personal response. We definitely read that very carefully, and
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: we just want to ask the writer to if you
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: would be so kind to email us at pod therapy
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: guys at gmail dot com. You sent us the letter,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: you didn't give us any kind of contact info, and
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: after reading it, we felt like it was really sensitive
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: and we felt like that's the kind of thing that
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: we just want to respond to you very sincerely and
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: personally and directly, and so if you would give us
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: that chance. You know who you are. This is just
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: a request for that, because we'd really like to talk
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: to you about that and give us and give you
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: back our sincere thoughts. So, anyway, we've got some great
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: questions for today's show. Leading off the order, how do
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I appropriately disengage from a toxic friend? Hello pod Therapy. Today,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: I'm writing you all about a tricky situation I've blindly
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: stumbled into. How do I deal with a bipolar friend
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: we'll call them Stan, who has established a pattern of
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: becoming overly attached to people, pushing boundaries before ultimately destroying
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: relationships when that attachment is not reciprocated in the way
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: he wants your death.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: Next question.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Here, you were done here. Today's episode has brought to you.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I am a mid twenties male and have been playing
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: a popular table top card game on and off for
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: the better part of a decade with my girlfriend. In college.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: She played game Yeah Hopefully that comes to an end.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: At some point.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: They're tired.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: This game of Parcheesi will never end. In college, she
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: played in a couple of games with her older sister's
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: friend group, some of which included Stan. For years, this
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: was a casual group. I heard many fun stories and
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: occasional beefs, but nothing to indicate things were anything other
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: than fine between the players. Stan included. Stan was even
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: best friends with my girlfriend's sister, Phoebe. We all managed
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: to play in person about four years back whenever would,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: which I remember fondly. For a long time, we had
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: a solid group and casually played, meeting every month or
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: so over Discord when the stars aligned and I was
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: blissfully ignorant to the undercurrents slowly pulling me into the drama.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: About two years ago, the game Phoebe was running petered out.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Sorry save Peter. She stopped posting scheduled polls and we
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: assumed she became too busy to run it. Around this time,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Stan began establishing more friendly contact with me. We would
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: chat over the tech semi frequently and regularly play video
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: games together on weekends. He opened up about his struggles
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: and problems to me rather quickly. And I did my
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: best to be supportive and encouraging, but it never really
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: opened up to him in return. This is how I
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: found out he was bipolar. Overall, I didn't get bad
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: vibes from him. He seemed harmless, friendly, and someone I
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: didn't mind chatting or gaming with here or there. I
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: did get the sense that he was clinging and emotionally needy,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: but I thought he was just lonely and going through it.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I tried to be supportive but kept my distance. At
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: this time, it felt like he was trying to latch
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: on to me in a way I wasn't able to support.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I felt somewhat put off by this and made a
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: point to keep things at a casual distance. I didn't
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: know it, but I passed a critical insight check here.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Around this time, Phoebe's game ended. Stan began running a
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: new game with us, Phoebe and her significant other, which
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: lasted about a year, but that also stopped around six
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: months ago. This wasn't surprising to us. These games take
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of effort, and things happen. Recently, Stan started
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: another new game, this time with me, my girlfriend, and
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: some people stand knows in real life. Phoebe nor her
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: significant other were not included, something we didn't think much
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: of at the time. However, this past Christmas, we learned
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: that the reason for these cancelations and new games was
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Stan's disruptive pattern of over attachment followed by destructive lashing out.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: As it turns out, Stan and Phoebe have not been
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: on good terms the last two years, which overlaps with
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: the time Stan and I became closer. Stan became overly
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: attached to Phoebe. He would call late at night and
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: get upset when no one answered, get upset when texts
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: were not answered immediately, and share his deepest problems while
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: expecting Phoebe to share hers. Phoebe and her significant other
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: set boundaries that Stan repeatedly crossed. When confronted, he would
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: play the victim. At times. This included messages about self
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: harming due to the emotional weight Phoebe and her significant
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: other were placing on him. Stan would cycle through phases
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: like this, followed by phases where he believed everything was
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: fine and everyone was best friends again, as if nothing
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: had happened. Phoebe described this as Stan having delusions and
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: incorrectly perceiving things as okay when they were not. This
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: included unasked for gifts, sometimes unmarked or marked with a
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: different name. Eventually, this led to a verbal altercation where
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Stan became very mean and through sensitive information back at Phoebe.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: All of this culminated in Phoebe and her significant other
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: cutting contact with Dan due to his repeated behavior and
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: unwillingness to address it. This all happened over the last
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: couple of years without my girlfriend or me knowing. I
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: also learned that this was not the only time this
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: had happened in previous game groups from college. Stan had
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: repeated similar behaviors with at least three other people, all
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: of whom eventually cut him off. According to Phoebe, this
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: made him more clinging to her until a few weeks ago.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I knew none of this. I'm not upset with Phoebe
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: or her significant other for not telling us, as I
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: don't think they knew Stan and I had that Stan
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: and I had become friends, which disturbs me. What disturbs
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: me is that Stan never mentioned any of this. He
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: didn't mention the falling out with his best friend, why
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: the game stopped, or anything at all. He continued as
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: though everything was fine. I feel disturbed by how he
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: treated Phoebe and others, and I'm now seeing the same
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: patterns in how he interacted with me, opening up quickly,
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: frequent communication, and emotional urgency. He's always been kind to me,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: which makes this harder to reconcile. I wonder if keeping
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: him at a distance prevented this behavior from escalating toward me,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: and if he is now repeating it with the new
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: people he knows in real life. On one hand, he's
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: never done anything wrong to me or my girlfriend. On
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: the other, he's treated my friends and my girlfriend's sister horribly,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: and this is an established pattern. I know he's been
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: confronted before and that his behavior has not changed. I
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: feel like he's been lying to me by omission for
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: the last year and a half, and it's made me
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: see our interactions in a darker light. As far as
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: I know, he does not know that I know any
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: of this. So what do I do here? My girlfriend
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: and I feel stuck. It would be easy to continue
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: as is while increasing distance and hoping the relationship fades,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: but that feels dishonest and disloyal to him, ourselves, and
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: the people he's hurt. I'm leaning toward confronting him, but
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I'm conflict avoidant and struggle to maintain composure in difficult conversations.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Being honest, it scares me. I don't know what I
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: would even be looking for from a confrontation. Ghosting is
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: an option, but it feels cruel and I worry it
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: could make things worse at any rate. I'm uncomfortable with
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: the current status quo. It feels like I have two options.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Cut this person out of my life or allow the
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: relationship to continue at a safe distance. I've been going
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: back and forth between these options for weeks, and it's
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: weighing on me. Life is too short for all this,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: and so I write to you for your advice. Signed anonymous.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: The friendships that change?
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Do D and D be ruining people ship? I mean,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: that's it.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: I'm a fan ghosting.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I am much.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: I am Even even better is say yeah, I'll be
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: there and then just don't show show up. What do
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: you think ghosting? No ghosting is you just don't reply.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: At some point there is a line between like not
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: ghosting and ghosting. There's a point when it begins. It
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: might begin after you agree to be someone.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Jacob likes to wait to ghost you until you literally
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: call out for help and you're like, I'm on this ladder,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I'm stuck helping. I'm I'm dangling from this rafter. I'll
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: be right there.
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: I have to establish boundaries.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: That's what's best for me.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's best for both of us.
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: I mean I, I don't know. I.
• 10:01
  Speaker 6: If you've listened to the show for a long time,
• 10:03
  Speaker 6: you know that I often come down on the dump
• 10:06
  Speaker 6: the friend side. But like, what are you hanging on for?
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, you've got friendship networks, and there's probably people
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: in your network that person A, who you are personally
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: comfortable with, has done person B dirty, They've done something wrong.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: But you are comfortable with A and you are comfortable
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: with B. I'm sure there's been times where you think, guys,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: this is not my business. Yes, don't ask me to
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: get between you. Yeah, absolutely have a different relationship with
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: A than with B. I'm gonna continue with A, and
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: how A and B get along is not my problem.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: That seems like an option here.
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: I think, so fine, I'm fine with any of that. Okay,
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: I'm happy with that too. If you if you're if
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: you're happy with that, it doesn't sound like the writer
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: is happy with that.
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah, continuing on kind of status quo. Yeah, if the
• 10:53
  Speaker 6: writer's happy with that, then golden. Yeah, definitely, But it
• 10:57
  Speaker 6: doesn't seem.
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: Like they are.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they talked about maybe like letting it fade away,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: but that kind of feels disingenuous to them.
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: Also, I don't think that's To me, that doesn't feel dising.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: It almost seems like the easiest that's just what happens.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think they think that, would you. I'm
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: a fan Stan, and I feel like I've said this
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: on here, just like Jacob's like, you know where I'm
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: coming from. My vibe is I feel like letting the
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: person know why you're pulling away is helpful. I don't
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: think it's necessary. I mean, you can choose to go somewhere.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: I think, yeah, no, no, no, that's a good question.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: I think more helpful probably to the person with the problem,
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: to be honest to Stan. Yeah, And maybe that comes
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: from being in therapy and talking to people who are like,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: why don't I have friends?
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Why don't I connect? Like I don't know.
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: Sometimes I'm like I wish someone did tell you what
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: was going on. Maybe Stan wants you to wants people
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: to tell me. Yeah, a lot of people say, like,
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: just be direct with me. I don't know if stands
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: up person, but I think there's value. And then for
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: both sides. One it's so chance for you to practice
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: a writer being like more honest with people. My go
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: to is always if you have trouble in those live confrontations,
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: because I can very much relate to that, like not
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: knowing what to say in a moment that feels really
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: like tense or uncomfortable. It's like sometimes just writing something
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: down to share with them, whether you're reading off it,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: whether you just give them it as a letter, whatever
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: your preference is. Sometimes that can be helpful to just
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: keep your composure and give you something to focus on
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: where you're not just staring in their eyes and like
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: or whatever.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: I don't hate that idea, you know, Nick, I wonder
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: what you think about this, because like, in my sense,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: it feels like the writer. I guess we're calling that person.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Anonymous says, Look, Stan tried this shit with me. Stan
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: tried to be too much. I caught it, and I
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: pushed back, and I have successfully created a boundary and
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: now we're cool. We have our game relationship I enjoy
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Stan sometimes Stand over steps. I nudge Stand back over.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: The line I'm done with direct Yeah, sure, Stand's.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Responded really well. I have recently become aware that Stand
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: tormented Phoebe and others who I care about, and that's
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: why they're no longer part of this group anymore. So
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I wonder if it becomes like this vicarious honor debt
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: of like, now I need to go confront Stan and say,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: I'm upset to hear that you mistreated our mutual friends,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: and therefore now I don't want to be around you anymore.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: I look at that and go, look if it really
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: bothers you great, like if you if same reason, Like
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: if you found out somebody like believed in a whole
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: set of beliefs that like you find morally repugnant, It's like, hey,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: this affects up my ability to be friends with you,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Like now that I know you treat people like this,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work for me, okay, But I can also
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: see anonymous just being like, Look, I have set boundaries.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Stan is obeying those boundaries. There is no obligation of
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: me to now go upset the apple cart and be
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: like in the name of Phoebe. You know, I cast
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: thee away, Like is that necessary? It just seems like
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: an extra step to where I'm at with it.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: But he said he's disturbed by it.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: That is fair. Yet it does bother is bothering him?
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: That's well, I mean, oh we did. Yeah, that changes everything.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: But I didn't. I just thought I just knew this information.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: I didn't realize. No, I don't know. I think. I
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: mean the thing that's is he disturbed by because here's
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: the thing, like he's he is hearing this from other people.
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: He's becoming aware of this. So it's kind of one
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: of those things like I've had this before to like
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: for example, no one, no one in this story is
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: going to listen to this because they don't listen to
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: the podcast. But in my my golf league, okay, there's
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: uh the person who the president who runs it, and
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: people have complained about him, like no, and and O. J. Simpson, Yes,
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: he's he's done a terrible job the last couple.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Of years, so many weeds.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: No, but like some people have complained and like I
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: get where they're coming from, but I have never had
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: a bad interaction. Okay, So it's kind of one of
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: those things where like, obviously I value my my friends
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: who dislike this person, and I like, I don't want
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: to discredit what they're saying. Yeah that I can totally understand,
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: but then I also want to give credence to my
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: own experience and just being like, yeah, I get it,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: but you know, I've never had that issue, you know,
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: so I kind of feel like I don't want to
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: then just like out of loyalty to my golf and
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: buddies just hate this person. You know, it's like, okay, no,
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: I I treat each individual as based off of my experiences. No, obviously,
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: if there's something really huge that happens, you know that
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: even though it didn't happen to me. You know, if
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: you know, he goes and he punches one of my friends,
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: and like, well he didn't punch me.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: You find out response some old lady dying in another state. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: that would would I'd be sure. Yeah, that's where that's
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: pretty much it. Yeah, I don't have many lines. That's
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: the one.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't say funk all about it because I'm smarter than.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: I Look, yeah, that's right. If one old lady dies,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: be any of us, she'll kill again. The black lung
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: guys just a mold in this room.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: I personally think everyone here is doing a great job.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, No, I like what you said, Nick. Like
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: for me personally, the way I do relationships is I
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: may have an opinion about how you treat somebody else,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, our relationship is
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: something that I just judge between the two of us,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: like how do you treat me? How do I treat you?
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: And and like the writer seems to be conflicted here.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: In one of the paragraphs, writer says, on one hand,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: he's never done anything wrong to me or my girlfriend.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: On the other he's treated my friends and my girlfriend's
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: sister horribly and that's an established pattern. And so seems
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: to be personally conflicted.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: With based off of what he's witnessed or what they've reported.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Sure, and you know, let's believe it, Like we could
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: probably believe the reports because writers like, yeah, it kind
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: of does check out, Like Stan is like that. Sure,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: And Stan seems to also be growing sometimes, like I
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: do think that I don't know, like I guess we
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: just we catch people in their growth so much. And
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Stan has already suffered consequences by losing these other relationships,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: and perhaps that is moderating Stan's behavior now, and Writer's
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: rejection of Stan and boundaries that Stan is also moderating.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I also feel like if writer, like coming back to
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: your point, Whitney, if writer's genuinely uncomfortable and is like, hey,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: hearing all this really puts a pebble in my shoe.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: It really puts a bad taste in my mouth about
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: our relationship. And you know what, I feel like you're
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: going to keep doing this. It's like this corrosive acid.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I don't like that I constantly have to push you back.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: I want to slowly just kind of start to end
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: our relationship. I think that you're well within your rights
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: to do that, but I feel like your advice is
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: kind of like I like your advice of having a
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: direct conversation because if it were me, my personality, I'm
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: so calm, diverse that I would just like slowly try
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: to moon walk back, like it'd be like scheduling less
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: and less. He just just ghosting slowly.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, normal, and fine, it's just the right.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: But then the human is gonna feel weird about it, right,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: and the human's gonna be like, oh, jim what's going on?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Why don't we hang out anymore? Like, oh, you know,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I've just been so bigby.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: Are you okay? Are you okay?
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Jimmy nice? He's gonna run with this bit all show.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, Like I I appreciate what you're suggesting because
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's the more honorable path to tell
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: them like, hey, look, you know I'm good with you,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: but like i've heard about how you did with some
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: of our other friends. Sometimes you are too much I
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: want us to I don't know. But then it's like,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: I think you're gonna have conflict because if you say that,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: they're gonna be like, oh, that's bullshit. Don't listen to them.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: They suck. They're lying to you. You should hear my side,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: and like you kind of should hear their side.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, And I guess the way to approach it also,
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: I thought of while sitting with this little more is
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: maybe like approach it from like, hey, i've heard these things.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, what's up with that?
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And hear them out.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Maybe maybe they are in their growth phase and they're like,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: you know what, Yeah, I did fuck up on like
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: those certain things. I shouldn't have said that shouldn't have
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: done that, and I haven't had a chance to address
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: it with them. I tried to apologize, you know, you
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: don't know. They'll have their side, and I think at
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: that point you choose to take whatever at face value
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: because it is that he said, she said, they said whatever.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: So I think I think being curious, like I always
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: say that a lot here, but this is a great
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: example when it's like, hey, I'm letting you know I
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: know things right, and I want to see how you
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: respond to that. But I'm going to come at it
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: from I want to hear your side too. I'm not
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: sure how dare you say those things and not.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Announcing a verdict. I'm not telling you we're not going
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: to be friends, and I'm not telling you I agree
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: with these people, But I'm letting you know, Hey, I
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: heard that some shit went down between you and people
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: I care about. Can you tell me more about that.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: I feel like that gives them a chance to like
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: see that you're open, you're still like open to being
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: their friend and not just like casting them out. And
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I think it just gives.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: I like that, is anyone else curious to hear Whitney's
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: assessment of ourselves one of them.
• 20:09
  Speaker 7: Yeah, is there a Whitney review? Yeah's are just pulling
• 20:18
  Speaker 7: paper out of her first Well, that's really it's really
• 20:23
  Speaker 7: just a journal.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Calendar.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I'm scrolling a lot over.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Here's a star system. Oh no, yeah, no, I think
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I'm good. Pass on that they go past. I'll never forget.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: One of the first things Whitney ever said to me
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: once brought into the show. She was silent the very
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: first episode, and then we brought her in officially another
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: episode and just randomly Jacob said, so, Whitney, what do
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you think of Jim's mustache? Completely unprompted, and I remember
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: she just stared at me quietly for a few minutes,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: and she said, I mean, like, does it have to Man,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: this chick figured this show out way too fast. I'm fine,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: immediately has fit in and immediately has devastated me. Great,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: I'm on board. Yeah, no, I remember you were pretty enthusiastic.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: About its curious.
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: Sure, that's right, Jacob was taking curious because I believe
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: women there it is.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, coming back, that's right, right, and believes and listens
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: enough to nod. So writer, I like all this advice,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: you know, I like Nick's point of view that I
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: love the philosophy that we want to great our relationships
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: based on how people treat us, not necessarily you know,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: all their other dynamics, because boy is that exhausting to
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: have to be the police of all these other things.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: And I like Whitney's perspective that you have the right
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: to pull back, but maybe suspending full judgment and starting
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: from a posture of generous curiosity. Like, Hey, I don't
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: want to pretend I don't know about this. I know
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: it's never been talked about because it's never involved me,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: but I've become aware. Can you comment on that, because
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I'm curious what are you willing to share?
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: I do think, though, the writer, I do want to
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: give you credit for just kind of I don't know
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: what to say, but like have having like a good
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: radar in the sense that like you kind of notice
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: some things and you kind of like, okay, all right, yeah,
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: this doesn't make me feel good. So because like I
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: do kind of the same thing with a lot of people.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: When I'm meeting people for the first time or just
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: over time, there's just something every once in a while
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: that something just clicks. I'm just kind of like something
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: doesn't feel right. Yeah, and then so I just kind
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: of keep him a little bit more at a distance, right,
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: and you know, I'll just you know, I just don't
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: communicate very much with them. I just as opposed to
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: other people who when I meet, I'm just kind of like, oh,
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: I kind of feel this, this is going really well,
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: that I can speat things along, but like you're kind
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: of always keeping that that radar up, you know. And
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: I guess that's the other thing too. Why I wouldn't
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: feel bad if the writer just kind of started to
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: distance a little bit or just not engage as much, sure,
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: and to do it more passively in the sense that
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: it's not like you're doing it to that person. I
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: look at it more as in like an internal thing,
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Like what you're doing is you're kind of deciding how
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: close someone gets to you.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, or you're doing it to their behavior, like this
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: behavior is not attractive to me, and I'm pushing you
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: back and I'm not available to be treated like that.
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: When I used to do groups, we used to talk
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: a lot about boundaries, right, because one of the things that's.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Really not breaking or entering into another person's life. Yeah,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: unless it's luck. You're really not supposed to see you
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: are paying rent. Okay, so then then you're entitled what
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: you're saying. Okay, yeah, I mean if they haven't paid
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: you back your deposit and it's kind of their your life,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: that's their life. Okay, got you.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: But I used to use this example because it like,
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: and this happens a lot for adults who were abused children,
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Like they kind of lack the ability to identify risk
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: because when you're a protector is also your abuser, then
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: those lines get very blurry, right, So you kind of
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: learn about whether or not people are safe by comparing
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: them to the people who protected you. How how many
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: similar traits did they have to my mom or to
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: my dad. The more similar they are, the more comfortable
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: we feel, and we let them in closer. But again,
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: like if they were also the abuser, then it's it's
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: hard to make that distinction. So people just tend to
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: like open up to everybody and just like everybody gets
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: to come in, you know, And so we kind of
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: have this conversation about like, you know, there are people
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: who you're willing to have on your property. Out of
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: that group of people, there's some of those who are
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: allowed inside the house. Out of that group of people,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: there's some of those who are allowed inside your bedroom, right,
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: And so it's like there are different layers and out
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: of those, there's some that are allowed inside of me,
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: and then there's one old woman allowed inside the chimney.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: That's just the.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: So I think the writer like in a way, like
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: you don't have to explain anything, like I agree with
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: Whitney's take on this, Like you could have that conversation. Yes,
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: I'm saying I agree with it. Agree, So you could
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: definitely do that the other way, you know, if you're
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: just thinking more about yourself and not really about this
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: other person or even about your friends, but just kind
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: of decided, like you know, this person's at a safe
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: distance right here, and that's where I'm going to keep them.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, this is really good and writer, I love
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: that you've got this radar on It's interesting because when
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: the person kept describing stan is bipolar the whole story,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I was kind of thing, it sounds a little bit
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: more like borderline.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I was going to say, this is not right. I
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: think people get border It might be one of those things.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people get those two confused.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: But did they say that that Stan had been actually diagnosed, No,
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: just that Stan had revealed Stan said, yeah.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: But this is a pattern that we often see with
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder, which is really poor boundaries, putting their
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: heart on the line. I love you, I love you,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: You're the best, I'm so addicted to you, and then
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: like you know, over in meshing with you, and then
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: whenever you're not responding at a pace that they like,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: or something goes wrong, there's this vitriolic response where they
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: feel abused and betrayed and they're the victim, and then
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: they're just like really lashing back at you and kicking
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: you back, and you're like whoa, and it's very personal,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: and then it's back and forth and back and forth.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: It's I love you, get away from me. So I
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: wonder if that's part of this and stands aware of it. Okay, there,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: you can be friends with somebody that knows this about
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: themselves if they're willing to acknowledge it and work on it.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: But anyway, writer, this is a real good story and
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I'm really grateful for you sharing it. And I think
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: the message here is don't play D and D with
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: your friends. Always play with strangers on the Internet, because
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: you know, this is why you're not supposed.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: To mix and start off the conversation with Jim's diagnosis.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Always lead, Yeah, I always lead every conversation with this
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: guy on a podcast that you're probably borderline. We're taking
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: a quick break and when we come back, we are
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: discussing when does something become trauma? You are listening to
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: pod Therapy.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: Today's episode is brought to you by Spitty Scoopson Miller,
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: Tess Miller, byr T Paris Team, Monico Hosker, Spondersna, Marie
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: and McCain, Myra and Sam Cone and if you like
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: sports of the show, become at therap producertron dot com.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Lash all right, trivia this week, Hey p T crew,
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: In honor of my husband and I heading to New Orleans.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: No Leans, I think it's how this week for the
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: ac A Lawn Ethics Conference. Here's a mix of trivia
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: related to presentations I pulled from this year's program and
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: a sprinkle of New Orleans questions. Yes, their presentations related
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: to all of these topics. Enjoy. Oh boy, Okay, this
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: is from Emma. Hi, Emma, let's see here we go.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: Three traditional Marty crack colors.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, come on, he's gonna stomp on us.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: I mean this is just the easy one, like purple
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: green yellow.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Is that the question?
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: Are you going for going for two? Yeah? You're going
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: You're going purple green, yellow, purple green, gold.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: I bet there's like specific names there. Fine, give me options.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, all we worked around right out of that.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: You're further along than I was. I would just pick
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Saints colors like black, silver, red, white, and blue. Oh
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: that's it.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: Do that one, purple green and gold, black, silver, teal, orange,
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: brown or cream.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: The purple green and gold correct.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: I could have had to.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Jacob literally has been.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to earn those.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: She wanted these beads I got, she earned them.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: Oh ship, okay, there was more here.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah, we were probably gonna learn something as well.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: She's she's presenting the AI in therapy laws I did
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: as a deep dive. Her husband and I or my
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: husband and I writer. He's a prosecutor. Are presenting on
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: a case where a social worker was found guilty of
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: a felony where a child died because he was h oh,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: because he was burnt out and didn't do his job.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: So actually a little bit of backstory in this Emma
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: is a is a great therapist. She's also a counselor educator,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: and she's in a PhD program, so she goes to conferences.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Her husband is a lawyer and a prosecutor, and so yeah,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: they're co presenting at this conference. And one of the
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: things that she worked on with us here at pod
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Therapy was getting some feedback as I was doing my
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: series on AI. She reached out and said, you know, hey,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: how would you kind of intermingle ethical codes and like
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: approaching that from an AI perspective. And so we kind
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: of co wrote together a episode that's in the Patreon,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: which is the Laws of Theoro Robotics, which is like
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: my take on like how you would apply AI or
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: robotic driven laws into counselor ethics. And so she ended
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: up taking that and turning that into a paper, her
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: own version of it, obviously, and that's part of what
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: she's actually gonna be presenting as well. So that's what
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: she's referring to.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: Okay, Jacob, ethical codes versus law.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good, I'm glad you didn't give them.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: Marty Graula is best summarized as so you're gonna want options. Okay.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: Ethics always overrides law. Law always overrides ethics. They overlap
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: but aren't identical. You often had to meet legal duties
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: and ethical standards, or d neither matters. If your intentions
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: are good that last one, but I like that last
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: that solid Let's see they overlap but are but aren't identical.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: Yes, yep, I believe that gets me two points. Or
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: wading into y'all's world. Uh huh, I'll allow it. Uh
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: jim okay. The most common ethical risks just texting clients
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: casually is what nudes the therapists.
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: Typing speed falling.
• 31:29
  Speaker 7: In love was interpreted parmesan being misunderstood.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Blurring boundaries, privacy security risks and unclear expectations about access
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: and genitals, clients using too many emojis or phone battery drain.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: Come on, Ama love it give me the one about
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: blurred boundaries that sounds I'll give you a half a
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: point for one.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, alright, okay, commanding lead you get them?
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: Okay? Yeah? Why not? Jackson Square sits beside which landmark?
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Oh good, I'm glad I didn't get the.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: Super dome Saint Louis Cathedral, Cafe Dumont Main entrance, the
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: French market only.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: I think I know this one.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Have you been there?
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: Well, I was going to say Cafe Deumont, but the
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: Saint Louis Cathedral is right there. But Cafe Demon's right
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: there too.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Jesus, you've all been there.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I'm not giving you anything.
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna say, b which Saint Louis Cathedral.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be The cathedral.
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: Is right there.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: It is that I remember right behind.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: The Is this a coffee shop?
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: Yes, Cafe Demon is like like Begnet is like the
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: like the.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: To be there gym.
• 32:47
  Speaker 8: You know.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: I don't like to travel. I don't even like coming here.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: I know, well there's you don't need to go there.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: There's a Popeyes down the street.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: It's the same cafe Popeye.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's all you need to do.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: All I will not. I'm great at that. Yeah, to
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: New Orleans, the Orleans. It's fine, all right, Jacob's winning.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: When does something become trauma? Hello, amazing people. I think
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: you do great work and I do admire this podcast.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I hope this question isn't too heavy, but would greatly
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: appreciate your feedback. I had a sexual relationship with an
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: adult who was close with my family. Okay, let me
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: go ahead and back up. Stop right there, Hi, everybody,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: it's Jim from pod Therapy. I'm about to read a
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: question trigger warning. There's definitely sexual content in this and
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: it has to do with underaged relationship.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: Oh I just read the rest of that sentence. Yeah, okay, So.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go ahead and give everybody trigger warning.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: If that is not your cup of tea, definitely skip
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: over this and we'll see on the next question. If
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: you're listening with children in the car, what the fuck
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: are you doing? Nothing about our show has ever given
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: you permission to ever read any of the ship with
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: kids in the car.
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: On before you get the kids out of the car. Hey, hey, hey,
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: kids doing it.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Uncle Jacob loves you.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: Listen, kids do not smoke cigarettes.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: There it is.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: They are bad for you. They cause terrible health consequences.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Down the roadrue. They do look awesome so cool while.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: You're smoking double yeah. And they will get.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: You laid so laid. Yeah they don't.
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: They will get you fucked me. They look great. They
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: will kill.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: You also death. Yeah, they will get you laid. They'll
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: still get you laid. Yeah, this has been Uncle Jacob's
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: minor minute. Now get out of here, kids, gets back
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: in the school. All right, everybody, trigger warning complete? When
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: does something become trauma? Hello, amazing people, You're awesome. I
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: hope this question isn't too heavy, but would greatly appreciate
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: your feedback. I had a sexual relationship with an adult
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: who was close with my family when I was about
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: twelve that lasted two or three years without really going
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: into but I absolutely participated and drove some of the interactions.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: It was a secret to others and kind of ourselves
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: as well, because we never spoke about it outside of
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: the acts themselves. For all my life, I've only ever
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: told two people, my first strong romantic partner in my
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: early twenties and a therapist in my early thirties. Well, anyways,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I feel more or less okay about it today. I'm
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: in my thirties, and sure I don't like really thinking
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: about it, and I certainly don't talk about it, but
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like it's this looming horror overshadowing my
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: life or tragedy that's happened to me. All in all,
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I just feel like it's just a thing, A part
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: of my past that i'd rather I wouldn't have done,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: like a regular old regret. I don't feel like it
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: really affects me. With that said, I do have dreams
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: about it. They come and go every couple of months,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: and they come several at a time. The dreams are recreations,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: recreations there, thank you. The dreams are recreations of the
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: acts themselves.
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: Love in my.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Defense, recreation, I mean it does you know? But hers
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: is obvious.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Read and read and read.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: The dreams are recreations of the acts themselves, and once again,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: I'm a participant. It's not a horror dream. I just
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: don't enjoy having them like i'd prefer not to. My
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: question is this, Are these dreams inherently bad and something
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: I need to handle in therapy? Are these dreams a
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: definite sign that something is wrong? Thanks? Anonymous? Pronouns are
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: he and him? Okay, we'll get to the writer in
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: just a second. I had the craziest dream last Oh Jesus, I.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Was like, what's Nick about to say?
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: Nothing about the less go on on?
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: No?
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: I know, I know, I don't know.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: I don't want to say that. This is a great letter.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: It's a great question. It's a great question. Yeah. But
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: my dream last night, okay, Okay, Laura and I were
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: going we were going to a concert, but the concert
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: was at a movie theater, okay, and somehow to get
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: to this you guys have seen ca yeah, okay, So
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: it was like that, whereas like there weren't any stars.
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: It was like the wall with these pegs in the
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: wall and we had to climb up and like, and
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: Laura was just cruising and I'm like struggling to climb
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: up this thing. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, that
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: has nothing to do with the crazy part. Oh, that's
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: just fun. So then all of a sudden, the next thing,
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: I'm at a football game, okay, and I think, like
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: I'm on the radio, like I'm calling the game. It's
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: a high school football game.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: It's my old high school, okay, but it's not at.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: My old high school. So it's my old high school team.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: And they're playing this game and this that our teams
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: on defense, and somebody made a great play tackle and
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: behind the line of scrimmage, and so this kid celebrat
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: He's like, yeah, fuck ya, and then a football flies
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: out of nowhere hits this kid in the face and
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: then ever, but he's like, where did that come from?
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: And it was the assist or the coach of the
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: away team of the other team, okay, okay, the home
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: team whatever. And so then our football coach one, this
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: is crazy, this is this is so our high school
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: football coach runs over, grabs this coachy throws him to
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: the ground, and like, my immediate reaction is, dude, no, no,
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: this is You're not gonna want to play. It's going
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: to this is going to get dark.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Jesus.
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: So he throws the guy to the ground and the
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: guy's like seventy years old, and my immediate reaction is like,
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: do what are you doing?
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: He's an old man.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And then the guy doesn't move and it looks
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: like he's in like mud or something. And then I
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: look closer. It's not muddy. It's blood. Oh Jesus, sow
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: us into this, Jacob, seriously, cut that. What's up?
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: He throws him to the ground and then like this
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: puddle just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: then everybody starts freaking out and everybody is like like scared,
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: and I'm looking at its.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Like, holy fucking shit.
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: Holy shit, holy shit, Like I can't believe. It's like
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: I woke up sweating, like this is a traumatic dream
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: for me, and so I know this is where it
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: gets dark. It's not done. No, don't, seriously, don't, don't. Don't.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I'm trying.
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: So I'm trying to figure out what the fuck is
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: going on to No, you know what it was. It's
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: seeing all the ship up in Minneapolis. Oh, that's what
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: it is. And so because so my brain is like
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: processing all of this stuff that I keep seeing on
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: the news, because like that was that was the feeling
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: I had in the dream. The feeling I had in
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: the dream was holy fucking shit, Like what did I
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: just watch? I just saw this crazy shit. I saw
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: this body go to the ground and now it's not
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: moving anymore. And it was just this and I just
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: woke up like that, wow, and then it was just
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: it was just oh, it's so creepy.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: There is something to be said, Like I've never gotten
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: too big into like Freudian dream analysis and stuff. I
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: don't love him drawing such firm conclusions about what the
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: meanings of them are, but I do I do relate
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: to what Nick just said, like a lot of times
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: a dream will happen for me, and the scene in
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: the scenario do not perfectly align with what it probably represented,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: but the feeling created by the scenario is in alignment.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: It's something I was feeling recently.
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: Always feel like with dreams, it's there's something, there's something
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: there to look at, and there's information there, but it's
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: not it's it's not something like it shouldn't be your
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: only source of information.
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: No, I honestly think it's just you know, like you
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: see this, this thing happened, your brain is still processing it,
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: and it's still going. It's still going, still going, and
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: then you go to sleep, right, and it still has
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: to do something. Yeah, it's like digest and then so
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: it's like it's kind of like the the rules of
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: logical thought are turned off. Yeah, but the thought is
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: still there, so it's still got to spin it somehow
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: and it just kind of comes out in a different way.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I do think there's also some like I don't
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: know that I this is way off the point now,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: but like I don't know that people should believe their
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: dreams because sometimes they're like, oh, what was my dream
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: trying to tell me? It's like, oh, my god, I
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: you know, like I it actually I don't like my
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: best friend or whatever, because like I realized, I have
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: this animosity in my dream or whatever somebody we're not
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: really friends or whatever they're feeling, and like, I don't
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: love trusting the message of the dream. I think it
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: can just be this emotional indigestion.
• 41:50
  Speaker 6: But like using that same you know, expanding that same example,
• 41:53
  Speaker 6: the same metaphor. Uh, you know, if you have been
• 41:56
  Speaker 6: having thoughts about your your best friend and like, oh,
• 41:59
  Speaker 6: I've been, I've been really like struggling. I don't like
• 42:01
  Speaker 6: I don't I don't like out with my best friend.
• 42:03
  Speaker 6: I don't I don't like being around them. I don't
• 42:05
  Speaker 6: like the stuff they do.
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: You know, there's all these things and then you start
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: dreaming about it and you can go, okay, all right,
• 42:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah it has been bothering me.
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: It has really been weighing on me.
• 42:14
  Speaker 6: And just the fact that you're that you're dreaming about it, writer,
• 42:19
  Speaker 6: as I expertly moved back to the letter.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Good yoah, bud.
• 42:22
  Speaker 6: The fact that you're dreaming about it, I mean it
• 42:25
  Speaker 6: shows that you're working on it.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: There's like a latent emotion, like there's there's.
• 42:30
  Speaker 6: Something inside of your head that's that's working on this,
• 42:33
  Speaker 6: and and like, and I only say that to say, like, clearly,
• 42:37
  Speaker 6: there's there's something here that that needs to be resolved
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: inside of inside of you.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: What would need to be resolved in this point, I
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: don't know, I think of anything.
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: I have such limited limited information available to me. Yeah,
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: as anything the writer's past.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: So Whitney, there's an interesting point that Jacob's making here
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: where the writers saying, so if I just tell this
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: to anybody, they're going to say, oh my gosh, that
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: is a traumatic thing, and you must be having memories
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: of it, because it is a capital T trauma. But
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I think what through through Nick's actual turned out to
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: be a decent story. I really was sitting there just
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: grinding my teeth the entire time.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: Trust me at all? You do not trust me at all?
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: You put on the Chicken Dance.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: Somewhat story.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Honestly he was to do with that.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: I don't think Nick is gonna go If I don't
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: think he's gonna do stuff that, I could just shut
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: him now.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, you're right, it's me. I saw you
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: spiraling in the air like a gymnast and I did
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: not think you were going to land on it, but
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: you know what, you were right. You planted and then
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: just threw your head back in one glorious pose and
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: just arms in the air and it worked. But to Whitney,
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: this is an interesting point, right, So like these latent
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: emotions can exist, the brain can be digesting and recreating
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: these memories. This person can say this happened. But objectively,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: if I describe this, it is going to be everybody's
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: textbook definition of abuse, sexual abuse of a minor. I
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: am technically the victim, which I think we can get
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: into in a second discussing. We should talk about like
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: the concept of consent and like a little bit of that.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: But this idea of what is the difference between a
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: trauma and is there a such thing as objectively a
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: trauma or is that always a subjective?
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: It's not just it doesn't have to just bring you
• 44:32
  Speaker 5: to your knees every time you think about it in
• 44:34
  Speaker 5: order to be a trauma.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: That's exactly the question.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I've had this conversation with I mean, I
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: know he was on a long time ago with Nick
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: on an interview Jonathan Senda. He's a good friend of
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: mine colleague. He is a certified sex therapist, and I
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: have had having a lot of different clients come into
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: my office and talk about a variety of different like
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: sexual experiences, some of that being sexual abuse in childhood,
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: some of that being how does that manifest today in
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: my current sexual relationships. We've had discussions that what I'm
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: about to kind of share isn't exactly pertaining to what
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: the writers saying, but I think it dabbles into it.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: And that's where chatting with him about different challenges that
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: clients might go through. Something he said that really stuck
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: out to me once was that sexual abuse, that's what
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: this is. So I'm using the term sexual abuse because
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: by definition, that's what this is, but sexually inappropriate behaviors.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: Sexual abuse from childhood doesn't always feel traumatic, and sometimes
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: clients will go to see him and or like come
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: to their therapists and they're like, what's going on kind
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: of what the writer's asking like almost like why am
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: I not traumatized? Or how do I have sexual experiences
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: with these other somewhat traumatic events that have happened, and
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: that can be not feeling like they're big traumatic events,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: but they're still impacting maybe my relationships, my sex life,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: my dreaming, like the writer's dealing with And what's been
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: interesting is Jonathan sharing how you can, oh, gosh, ought
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: to be very delicate, how I'm sharing this. You can
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: still have healthy sexual relationships without like shaming is the
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: word I'm gonna use without like, oh, is there a
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: better word I can think of here? Without the taboo
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: feeling around this world.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: I think following that there's a biological thing that's just happening,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: and it is possible for that to be independent of
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: the context of how it's.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: Happening, correct because your body is your body has experienced it,
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: your mind has experienced it, and it's processed it in
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: its own way. And I thought of that when the
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: writer's writing, because they're like, I don't feel like this
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: is a big trauma. But obviously I one hundred percent
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: agree with Jacob. It's something on your mind and so
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: or something you're on your that's on your mind if
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: you're dreaming about it. That's my kind of personal opinion
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: on that. On dreams, I think we dream about things
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: we're thinking about or that might feel unresolved. I think
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: that's when they pop up in our dreams. Quite a
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: bit more so maybe there is something going on that's
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: like bringing this up. Are you in a new relationship?
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: Are you is there something reminding you of this time
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: in your life? Like I would be curious there, but
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: but yeah, I just thought it was interesting and I
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: thought worth sharing that. A lot of times when people
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: maybe haven't been through anything like, uh, sexually traumatic in childhood,
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: they it's hard for them to understand how that can
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: feel not traumatic, Like you're just like they just think,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: yeah that duh, Like this happened to you, you must be traumatized,
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: and it's like, ah, right, our bodies of mine's cope
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: in a lot of different ways doesn't always end up
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: that way.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: This comes up a lot. And I mean, obviously, if
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: you're a therapist long enough, you eventually hear about all
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: kinds of situations. And there are even situations that you'll
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: find are very common in particular cultures, you know, and
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: people will come from different parts of the world and
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: be like, hey, this happened in my family, and you'll
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: be like, oh my god, are you okay, And they're like, uh, yeah,
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: it was I did. I just liked it very much.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: But like that, every single one of my cousins felt
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: the exact same way when it happened to them. It's
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: like what it's like, Yeah, so there's this ubiquity. So
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: you're absolutely right. So I do think what you're getting
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: to there is and I think it's a very sensitive topic. Obviously,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: nobody should misinterpret Whitney as somehow, you know, like dismissing
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: the reality of this. What we're saying is there was
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: a crime, this person was the victim of the crime.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: That is all just objectively true. However, to them at
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: the time, they did not feel like they were being criminalized,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: and so they were made to feel like they were
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: part of it. And from their personal subjective truth, they
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: felt fine, they felt at peace, and they did not
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: feel like there was a crime taking place.
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: I see, I didn't give an easier example.
• 48:59
  Speaker 6: There you go, if you're if you are uh, if
• 49:02
  Speaker 6: someone steals something from you, if someone steals an item
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: from you that you don't give a shit about, Okay.
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: They have still stolen from the shit have still they
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: have still done something wrong, crime has happened.
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: It simply is not that big of a deal to you.
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: You feel like at that moment to get over now,
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: then that is not the same type of thing, but
• 49:25
  Speaker 6: it's still you know, I'm just amusing that to just
• 49:27
  Speaker 6: say like, yeah, you can still be a thief, and
• 49:32
  Speaker 6: the person that you're stealing from in.
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: That moment might say like no, no, no, it's okay, they
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: can have that. Yeah.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: And this this does come up a lot, and this
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: is this kind of letter is actually very very common.
• 49:43
  Speaker 8: Will you repeat the question that was the primary question
• 49:46
  Speaker 8: of the letter that the person's trying to ask, when
• 49:48
  Speaker 8: something trauma? When is something? And it's any trauma okay, Okay.
• 49:52
  Speaker 8: So they're saying, hey, look I went through this experience.
• 49:54
  Speaker 8: Boy does it not feel subjectively traumatic? But most folks
• 49:58
  Speaker 8: would consider this the definition of what should be called traumatic.
• 50:01
  Speaker 5: Let me read this definition to you. I've read a
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: definition of trauma. It's chat gpt Okay.
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: Trauma is a deeply distressing or disturbing experience that overwhelms
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: your ability to cope and leaves lasting effects on your body, emotions, thoughts,
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: and sense of safety. Yeah, and or sense of safety
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: is important and or a sense of safety yeah.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Let me come just so in this case, trauma and
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: this is something we've talked about the show before, especially
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: when we described like PTSD. Trauma is whenever you go
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: through an experience that's beyond your brain's ability to language
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: at the time of its occurrence. So this is when
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: humans jack into this like flight, fight or freeze sort
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: of response where they just don't know what to do right.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: And so in the aftermath of this, the brain, the
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: body has all this recollection stuff that happens, all this
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: emotional distress surrounding the memory. The memory cannot fully be
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: integrated into that person, and it's like the splinter sticking
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: out of their brain, this unresolved memory file that's glitching
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: throughout the computer system, and so it causes a lot
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: of other problems. And that's when we're When that kind
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: of glitched file exists, we refer to that as trauma,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: and the reactions that often accumulate because of it we
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: might call post traumatic stress disorder. We also just have
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: other diagnoses like stress disorder, adjustment disorder, things like that.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: So in this scenario, writer, per that definition, I think
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: per how we generally feel in psychotherapy. If we sat
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: with you individually and you told us this happened, I
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: feel pretty much benign about it. We would look at
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: that and say Okay, this probably doesn't sound like a
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: trauma to us, because you get to decide what trauma
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: is and you're not describing it as that kind of sensation.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: Is a therapist what I'm gonna say, Oh my gosh,
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: this is bad. Sure, you need to address that.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Where I would be curious if I were your therapist,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: as I would say, can we talk about how you
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: feel about this happening and whether that caused you to
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: become normalized to this kind of behavior? How you know?
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: I'd be looking for some other things in your life too,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: to say, well, are you perpetually a victim in sexual relationships?
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Do you perpetually not have any boundaries? Do you perpetually
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: allow people to take advantage of you? Let's look at
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: that and if the answer to any of those kinds
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: of patterns is yes, that doesn't tell me that you
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: necessarily had a trauma because you didn't find that distressing.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: But it tells me that you were conditioned into a
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: certain way of thinking and a certain behavior pattern that
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: may not be very healthy for you, And I would
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: want to bring that to your attention so that at
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: least we can look at that pattern and say, is
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: this serving you is this a good thing for you?
• 52:30
  Speaker 6: When you say that, when you say conditioning, how much
• 52:34
  Speaker 6: does the intent of the person that is committing the
• 52:39
  Speaker 6: crime in the first place, How much is their intent
• 52:42
  Speaker 6: to condition How important is that or is that? Is
• 52:45
  Speaker 6: their intent important at all?
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Probably not to the recipient, right, so to the writer
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: in this case, that's what I'm asking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: I mean regardless. And this is true of all of us, right,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: Like we talk about families of origin all the time,
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: and like whether your father and your mother meant any
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: harm in the way they raised you. The way that
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: they interacted with you and raised you sculpted you in
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: certain ways to cause you to tolerate and not tolerate
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: certain things and emulate certain behaviors. So being groomed into
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: a predatory sexual relationship with an adult when you were
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: twelve probably shaped you as a person in some ways.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: And I think any therapist, regardless if we call that
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: trauma or not, we're going to be very curious. Oh yes,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: We're very curious.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: And to be honest, as a therapist, as you dive
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: into those things, I feel like a lot of times
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: clients become more surprised at how it's uh.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: That's when they noticed filling out. Yeah, the more that
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: we question it and help them look at it, then
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: and they might not feel.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Trauma about it traumatized.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: I don't sometimes feel surprised, like oh yeah I do that. Yes,
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Like Okay, if you heard your friend doing this, would
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: you think it's probably?
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: I know, like objectively, that's not a good thing. Okay,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: do you do this? I do? Okay, great, Like where
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: did that come from?
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: Like, oh, I never thought about that being a bad
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: thing that the boyfriends I've had or we act a
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: certain way around each other or whatever, like yeah, it's interesting.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a lot that we could learn
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: from this. One last thought I have and then you know,
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: if anybody else has any closing thoughts. I just want
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: to take a beat to just comment on the idea
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: that a person who's underage can engage in a sexual
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: relationship with an adult and in their mind they say, look,
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: I wanted this, I was participating in this, and I
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: just want to very gently push back on that a
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: little bit. On one hand, our default policy on the
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: show is that we do not question the writer like
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: they're the one who gets to be the speaker of truth,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: and if they invite us to, we'll nudge a little
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: bit about some of their conclusions. But usually we don't
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: really question your perspective on things for the most part,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: or your foundations anyway. On this, I just want to
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: gently nudge on that our view in modernity, and I
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: think I don't know if I can speak for all
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: of psychology, but I want to say most of modern
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: psychology and general healthcare is that beneath a certain age,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: you do not have the cognitive capacity to consent, and
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: so there is no such thing as underage consensual sex
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: because you don't understand the ramifica, you fundamentally cannot consent,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: and so sure you're you're going right along with it,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: and you say, well, I participated in this, and we
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: would say you didn't participate in this. You were brought
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: into this by somebody who knew what they were doing,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: and you did not. It's kind of like if an
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: adult gave you alcohol and you were, you know, ten
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: years old, and it's like, but I grabbed the bottle
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: and took a drink and I liked how it tastes,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: so I drank some more, and we would say you
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: did not knowingly agree to what was happening. You don't
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: have all the information, nor could you have understood it,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: and by participating in it, you immediately become intoxicated in
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: it and therefore become unable to continue consent to it.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: So we just generally don't, I think, agree with that concept.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: You're allowed to have your fundamental truth. I'm not calling
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: you out, but I'm just speaking that out because obviously
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: it's a public show, and there could be all kinds
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: of people that are hearing this and thinking different thoughts
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: about this, and it's going to be very clear. It
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: is the view of pretty much all of American society
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: at a minimum, that anything beneath a certain age of
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: consent is inherently a form of rape.
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: Yes, it's a rape. That it doesn't have to be
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: a violent rape. Sure it doesn't. Violence, doesn't.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: They have different concepts of rape part of it.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: But that and unless your parents consent to it for
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: you in certain states in the South, so that sucks.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: It's always the seth.
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: When I was twelve years old, I wanted a tattoo
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: of the Nike swoosh on my leg. Go ahead and
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: showed that to us. Yeah, So if there's anything that
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: explains that a twelve.
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: Years to say, I mean we with with sexual assault,
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: and rightly so, we as a society, especially.
• 56:29
  Speaker 6: More recently, we are trying as society very hard to
• 56:32
  Speaker 6: listen to victims, right and and I and I make
• 56:35
  Speaker 6: my you know, I believe women joke you know with
• 56:38
  Speaker 6: with abandoned. But but I mean that is you know,
• 56:42
  Speaker 6: as a society we are we are trying very hard
• 56:44
  Speaker 6: to swing towards in a direction of listening to and
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: believing victims of sexual assaults.
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: Right with children, the.
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: Mathematics has to change. We're not as concerned with listening
• 57:01
  Speaker 6: to what they did and didn't do before the assault happened.
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: You know, it's the same way with any other violent assault.
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: It doesn't matter what you say I did to you,
• 57:15
  Speaker 6: what I say, what you say that I said to
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: you before.
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: You shot me.
• 57:20
  Speaker 5: You don't get to shoot somebody for speaking to there
• 57:23
  Speaker 5: it is. You don't get to As a twelve year old,
• 57:27
  Speaker 5: you don't get to consent to that. And as an adult,
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: you don't get to use that twelve year old's quote
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: unquote consent as a screen to keep you to shield
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: you from repercussions for those actions as well. And that's
• 57:42
  Speaker 5: what we've and we've agreed on that as a society.
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: And if that isn't and like Jim's like Jim said, right,
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: or if that isn't your kind of truth that you
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: live with every day, cool, Yeah, that's totally cool.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: I mean that sincerely. Yeah, totally cool. This is your
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: personal experience.
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: How you're getting through life, and life is treating.
• 58:00
  Speaker 5: You okay, yeah cool, Yeah, Yeah, I've got some I've
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: got some worries for you. I think you know that.
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: I think you know that we all have some concerns
• 58:08
  Speaker 5: for you. Uh but uh, you know, if that's getting
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: you through day to day, that is totally fine.
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: But society has agreed that that is.
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the that's at least the truth that we're going
• 58:20
  Speaker 5: to work under. That's that's the truth that we're going
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: to assume and honestly and we're going to work on.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: It's not just the society thing. I think the science
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: teaches us that. Sure, Like we have hundreds of years
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: now of monitoring and understanding the human brain, we societally
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: agree that there are ages at which human brains can
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: engage in certain behaviors and knowingly accept the consequences of
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: that I don't care. You know that sounds like you're
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: trying to talk yourself out of something. Body, No, I'm
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: with you. I feel like they're just it's unacceptable. So
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: but anyway, writer that again, this is not indictment on you.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: It's just because the way some of that letter was languaged.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: And I know that this is a learning show. Yes,
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: it's an important little caveat to throw out for the public,
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: just to make sure that we're covering that base, because
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: there are people that listen to our show that have
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: written in with all kinds of challenges. There have been
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: some people that were in the adult's position when you
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: were twelve who have written into our show with confusion
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: and have written in saying, sure, does seem like this
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: person is interested in me? And this is us educating
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: that person That is an impossibility, no matter how it seems.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: That is not correct that they cannot actually cognitively consent.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: So don't believe in that. But writer, I hope that
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: this is something you'll continue to personally explore. Regardless of
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: whether we would label this psychologically as capital T trauma,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: I think you would knowingly agree, Hey, this was a
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: life shaping thing. It's not something that stays with me
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: every single day. It's something that sort of pops into
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: my dream. So maybe something emotionally subconsciously is kind of
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: knocking at the door there. I sure hope that that
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: could turn into something where you sit down with a
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: therapist and tell them if you're worried, like, hey, is
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: there a statute of limitations on this? Yeah? Absolutely, you're
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: in your thirties. There is nothing that can be done here.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: You don't have to identify who this person was. The
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: therapists can just hear about your truth and you can
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: just explore that and they know you'll tell them this
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: doesn't distress me. They'll say okay, and they'll kind of
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: follow you where you want to go as far as
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: talking about it, be curious about it. Maybe there are
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: dots to connect here. There could be something to learn here,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: and maybe that starts to unlock those dreams that are
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: holding on that something's trying to speak to you and
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: your subconscious Maybe that will come out if you sit
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: down in therapy and really engage.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: In you know what, how about this? Who cares if
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: it's trauma or not? Who cares what the definition of
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 5: trauma is?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: How about this. Is it relevant? It seems like it
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: might be irrelevant.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 5: You're still thinking on it, you're still dreaming about it.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: It seems like it might be relevant. Let's have a look.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: I like that.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hope that's something you're willing to continue to look
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: deeper on. And I really appreciate this letter writer. This
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: is a really sensitive topic. I'm grateful for this because,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: boy have there have been so many patients over the
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: years that I think can relate to what you experienced.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: And I think it's it's good to normalize that topic
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: and talk about it and get into the weeds of
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: the nuance of that. And I hope that we did
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: a good job on that, but I generally doubt our
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: abilities at all these times based on the response letters
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: that we get because I'm a bad boy. There it is.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break. Thank you for choosing
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: that drop. We can take a quick break, and when
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: we come back, we are discussing should I reach out
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: to my absent father. You're listening to pod Therapy.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: Today's episode Miller Test Miller, l Oscar Swander, Emma Kine,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: Myra and Sam count And if you'd like sponsor the show,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: come with there pretty dot com styles therapy. All right, Whitney,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: here you go. What a counseling faculty member repeatedly delays
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: feedback to a student with a dispositional with dispositional concerns?
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: The primary ethical issue is that silence can blank uh
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: build resilience through ambiguity, erode trust and fairness, and increase
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: downstream risk to clients and students, improve the student's autonomy
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: automatically or d prevent conflict. So it's fine, I like D.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: What is Jacob scribbling?
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: He's writing down the answer?
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: Okay, read B again for me, please.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: Erodes trust and fairness and increases downstream risk to clients
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: and students.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: That one correct, nice and backward three.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: It's backwards three. It's thirteen, all right, Jacob. A counselor
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: posts a relatable quote unquote relatable TikTok tick God damn,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: I you're doing great TikTok reenacting ticket and tug it
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: is let's start over. A posts a relatable TikTok reenacting
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: a client's story with details changed quote unquote. Biggest risk.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: The biggest risk is what a copyright infringement be A
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: client recognizing themselves or being recognized harming, confidentiality, and trust.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: See it's not evidence based or d it won't get
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: enough views. Oh yeah, all but B. Yeah, it's the
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: other three of them.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: Obviously not a problem.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, yes, it's definitely B. It's clearly B.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: I love that the one T was so hard for
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: all us, and now it's like, here's some softball questions.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Just take these.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: So I assume he got that one, right, Nick.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: Yes, there you go, nailed it. Good? Oh ship great? Okay,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: this next one is a quote, and believe it or not,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: it's it's it's a phrase that's in French. So let
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: me try it. Is it? Is it? Marti gras to
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: Marty Gaus question, Oh it might be, yes, it must be.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 9: I feel like I think she gets something's a late
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 9: Listen to those French dual lingo classes.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: Fair means the invisible hand, so lazy either means invisible
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: or hand. And then what's the that's the cherry, so
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: it's the invisible hand of the chocolate. That's the bonton.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: Put all together, what's hand? In French?
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: There there's a fair probably the fair part.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: Okay, so then maybe leave hand out.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Of invisible chocolate, invisible chocolate, cherry pastry.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: It is pastry options.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: Let the good times roll.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: O.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: You're gonna feel really stupid, goddamn option.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what people always yell on the streets.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: Visible chocolate, cherry phastree.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: Okay, let the let the good times roll. Please tip
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 4: your bartender, don't feed the alligators. The beans are read today.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, but that one actually does sound important, like the
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: beans are read today, Yeah, because of the cherry Jubilee thing.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: And I'll bet it's some kind of like metaphor. It's
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: like beans are read today. The what what was the just.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: The gotcha?
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: All right, let's go with the the first one. Let
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: the good times roll, good times, roll the good Yeah,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: three points to Jim Fu.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah all right, I have a sign.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: So, but can you translate the phrase though, like the
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: what is each word?
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: Let it be hand?
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: I was like, that's not what fair means. That's what
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: I learned in elementary school.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: It's that nevad education.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly, this is where we discover Clark County is
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: fifty first for a reason. Okay, So les is let.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: Label the good times jule.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: Oh is that what roulette is?
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, dude, I'm telling you this is when you start
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: learning French and you start looking at the English and
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: you start like, oh, ship, that's where that comes from. Dude.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: There's so much of English that comes from the front.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: This is I don't even realize now.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: I feel like we all discrew as people.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: You know, it was the accent.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: Honestly, the accent is legit. Like you're crushing it on
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: that accent, Buddy, I dig it. Oh shit, look at
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: keeping your pants. But let's finish this. Should I like
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: pepe leap over there. It's a little bit of fresh
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: stick out the whole.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: Time, shared a white stripe just back in hand.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Christ Should I reach out to my absent father?
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: Hi?
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Everyone, I think it's time I quit thinking about sending
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: this update and finally do it. I want to first
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: thank all of you for your take on my situation.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: It felt surprisingly more exposing than I was expecting to
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: hear my story on a podcast. I respect despite your
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: desperate attempts for us not to respect you. The deep
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: validation I received.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 6: From these are three people fucking dragon ass.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: The deep validation I received from hearing you reflect on
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: it from a purely objective standpoint was very meaningful to me,
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: and your empathy was palpable. Thank you for doing what
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: you do regarding reconnecting with my dad, but I've decided
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: not to. I've spent over half my life not in
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: contact with him, and I have so little evidence or
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: faith that he could or wishes to change. It just
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem worth it, especially reflecting on Nick's suggestion that
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: I was unconsciously hoping or assuming this meeting could only
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: go well. I hadn't even considered that he might not
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: show up, or more likely, show up drunk. It got
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: me thinking about childhood, me and my perception of my dad.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: I know he was generally always drunk, so his drunk
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: behavior seemed normal to me. Seeing him now with an
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: adult understanding of what drunk behavior is and looks like,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think I could handle him rubbing salt into
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: the wound in that way, or, worst case scenario, hearing
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: he doesn't wish to reconnect with me at all. I've
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: been hurt enough and I don't see any positive value
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: of adding him to my life again. Instead, I've finally
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: been able to get back into therapy with an excellent
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: trauma therapist and have chosen to close the door on this,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: I will not be reconnecting with my dad, but instead
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: grieving the loss of the father should have had. So again,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: thank you for your empathetic, thoughtful, and challenging perspectives on this.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: I look forward to hearing some of Jim's thoughts since
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: he was out. The Weak Mind was read and then
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: there's a huge parenthetical. I assume I'm not supposed to
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: read this. Please don't feel obligated to read this on
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: the pod. Oh oh, but speaking of Jim, okay, I
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: guess I'm just gonna wander down the shape. I just
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: have to ask, have you ever been evaluated for ocd ah? Thanks?
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: You talk a lot about your anxiety, but over time
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: listen to your podcast, I hear a lot of what
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: if or maybe language and difficulty tolerating uncertainty. Holy shit, Yeah,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: it sounds like some of your spirals are potentially mental
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: compulsions to avoid perceived consequences to a doubt slashing session. Jesus.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Even some of your behavior in social settings sounds like
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: they could be compulsions. I could be way off, and
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: I do not wish to arm your diagnose, but hearing
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: you've been through anxiety treatment before and still don't have
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: significant relief. Coupled with the language and possible compulsory behaviors,
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: it leaves me curious. This is speaking as a resident
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: who is working with OCD clients, so I may be
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: prime for it and experiencing confirmation bias. Just wanted to
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: toss the idea out there. Thank you, Signed Whitney's biggest
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: fan pronouns she and her pupu Texas.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, Well, y'all didn't need me to diagnose.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 6: If you're wondering out there, listeners, should I ride in
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 6: with my diagnosis of Jim?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: Or is Jim suffering from blank?
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: Aha?
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 6: The answer to your latter question is, of course he is.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 6: Listen to him. If you could see him right now,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 6: you wouldn't be asking yourself, is Jim suffering from this?
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 6: Uh huh yes, yes, And I'll tell you who else
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 6: is suffering from it. Everyone else in the room with Jim,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 6: So you don't need to tell Jim about it.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 4: We got it.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: There's only one person on the show that has a
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: neurotic bingo named after them.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, which is also in the program description if
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: you click on the little link in Oh.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: Cool episode I actually came across so speaking of moving,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: I came across the gym's neurotic bingo. I came across
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 4: one of.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: The old cards that monument. They have little dabbers that
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: were like our faces or something.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they're a little markers.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah that was cute. So this is a really good
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: response letter. So I don't I remember listening to that episode,
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: so I guess I wasn't on it. But yeah, it
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: sounds like you guys gave some killer advice, and it
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: sounds like the writer ultimately reclaimed their own autonomy. And
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: this decision to just not actually go back and reconcile,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: which I just I guess I want to reflect on,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: is never an easy choice, like to permanently let go
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: of a family member and grieve them as if they
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: are going on when they do still exist, and not
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: rolling that dice again because you just don't want to
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: get hurt again. It's it's admirable. It's not an easy
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: thing to do. I'm glad you did it with a
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: therapist and like work through that trauma.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that is really hard. That's really difficult, and yeah,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: especially when you have expectations. I think it's cool that,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: like you Nick put that out there, but hey, this
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: could just not go well.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: We were like, wow, I didn't even think about.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: That, because I think we do go into these meetings optimistically.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Typically, it's like if I set it up, it'll be great,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: it'll be okay.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: It's like it may not even be okay, it may
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: just be a shit show.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: It feels like most of the things that we do
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: that are our ideas, we you kind of have to
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: go into it optimistically, otherwise you wouldn't have chemra.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: Then everything's about it, right.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: I mean everything.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: That's what the anxiety is. I know, I'm always sure
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: it's going to go wrong.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you just never really have that thought
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: of like, oh maybe this isn't going to go the
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 4: way I thought it was going to go. And it's
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: amazing how long you hold on to that confidence, even
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: when history tells you that it's probably not going to
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: go the way you wanted to go. I was working
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: my garage today and so I'm hanging overhead storage. So
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: I bought like some storage wrap yourself. Yea, I bought
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: two of them. Surprise you as opposed.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: To who I'm impressed.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: No, I'm honestly impressed to for years. That's the only
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: would Yeah, I feel like because you got to get
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: them into like the studs.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, I want them to stay up. They're not
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: falling my somebody.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: So it's very important that you find the studs and
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 4: you attach them to the studs.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 9: Okay, hell, yes, I'll hold that for you.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 4: Side note of my side note. So I went to
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: uh I went to uh Low's and I picked up
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: not a stud finder, but a stud buddy. You ever
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: seen these? They're really really strong magnets. Okay, Okay, So
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: you hold it up there and then it will catch
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 4: on any screw that the the drywall screws right, and
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: so that's how you know where the stud is. That's
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: where they drew. Yeah, assuming they put the screw in.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: The right spot is very true.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: Correct. So I I came home for blow as I
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 4: went into Laura's office and I had it attached to
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: my belt pit. I was like, I guess it exactly,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 4: and She's like, you rehearsed that before coming in here,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: didn't you.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: I went and bought it because I wanted to do.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 4: I don't even think this is gonna work. So I
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 4: sat this afternoon. Today was my day this afternoon, knock
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 4: out a couple hours. I'm just going to hang these two.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 4: I haven't hung a single fucking thing yet. I was
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 4: in the garage for like four fucking hours finding studs. Yes,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: because I'm like, I'm trying to figure out like like
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: did they change the pattern of it, like is the
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: floor joice is it going one direction? One way? And
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: then all of a sudden they decided to go the
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 4: other day I couldn't and I was like, I just
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: could not figure out the fucking pattern because like I'm drunk.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 4: Would you would you like to borrow usad find her buddy? No,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: I got it now, he's got a study. But I've
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: got it now. But here's the fucked up part. So
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 4: I was like I was just about to start attaching
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 4: this thing as like you know what, I don't know
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: how much clearance I have because I'm putting it right
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: about the garage door.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: Yes, yea, yeah, this is important. Or if there's any
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: doors nearby that swing to make sure it doesn't hit those.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's uh, it hangs down twenty two inches
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 4: and I've got twenty one inches of clearance.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: So I'm gonna have to go through and I'm gonna
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: have to cut no one of them.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: Can't you just get shorter ones? They don't sell them shorter.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: They do. But what am I gonna do with this?
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 4: I'm not setting back. No, you should return it. No,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: because you don't know the size of the box this
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 4: fucking thing came in. Okay, Yeah, those are big. I
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 4: had these. I had those my old house. Oh okay,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: the box that came in. Is the size of that door? Almost?
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: No, they're large and it's it's probably weighs two hundred pounds.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: So it's like they're made of metal. You can cut them?
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah what Yeah, Jacob's and I think you can use
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: I suppose that checks out.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: Is that called a wet saw?
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: No, that's fortile, all right, and it has water.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought the water would be relevant in this case.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, keep the metal to keep the sparks.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: From being too hot.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 4: So anyway, I guess my whole point with this is.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 5: Like, even like I still is the answer that question.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 4: I still have confidence in being able to do some
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: of this stuff, but I'm still surprised every once in
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 4: a while because like that did not go how I
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 4: thought it was.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: Going to go optimism exactly, it'll take me.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought I was going to have like extra
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 4: time to watch the football game and like all that.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: No, I think that's just adulting.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: You're like, it'll take me, you know, yeah, an hour
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: or two to knock out these little tasks, and then
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: you're like, wow, the person didn't answer. Now I gotta
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: be on hold, and then I couldn't make it. It's like, yeah,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: so annoying.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: But I think there's also some truth, not just optimism,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: but like humans deeply long for reconciliation, and I think
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: that this causes us to perpetually have the Charlie Brown
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: and Lucy Football scenario, where like you keep returning to
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: your abusers, You keep returning to people who've let you
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: down over and over again, you believe in they're better angels,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: and then you're constantly disappointed. I think that happens on
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: literally a societal level, Like you'll see this play out
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: in huge social like patterns. You'll notice like gosh, just
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: keep trusting this individual or this group to like behave
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: or do something kind, because deep down humans long for reconciliation.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: They want to believe that everything will be okay, and
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: then you get exploited and it's like, oh, never mind,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: don't do that.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Jim, that doesn't sound like the world
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 4: we're living in.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: No, not this world, no no, no, yeah, not modernity,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: hypothetical parallel in history before mae, before times, before we arrived.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, writer, besides your taste in Whitney, I think
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: everything here is great. Really really glad to hear that.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks for the thoughts on the OCD. Yeah, you're welcome.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: I guess that's part of the show.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 4: Need worry about.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: Thanks now, I'll go google that incessantly.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 4: He definitely won't bawl that over the rest of the week.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: He's already forgotten about it.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 4: It will never be no problem.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: See what you guys didn't know is at the real
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: point of the show is that it ends when somebody
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: diagnoses Jim correctly. None of this was actually to help you.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: Somebody Jim correctly. I think he just disappeared. He said
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: his name right, Yeah.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 4: And feel free to write I can finally die. Feel
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: free to write in with the diagnosis for the rest
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 4: of the crew here too. Yeah, yeah, very very interesting.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 4: I want to see if your agrees with my ex girlfriends.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: All right, well, we are going to take quick break
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: and when we come back, we're wrapping up the show.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: You are listening to pod therapy.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 4: Today's episode is brought to you again by City Scoop,
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: Pason Miller, Test Miller, Piler, t Paris, Anna, Marie McCain,
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• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: Therapist drown you got any more tributa for us?
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 4: I got endless tribute, but I'm gonna save this for
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 4: next time.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: All right, fine, I just want to make sure we're
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: we recording because I'm looking in the mirror and I
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: don't see anything moving.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 4: Oh no, it's it's down here.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: Oh thank god. Okay, yes, if you look.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 6: In that mirror it never moves, Okay, then I will
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 6: not trust the mirror.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: As we wrap up the show, we want to remind
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: you can go sign up at patreon dot com slash therapy.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: You can get our extended show ad free a day
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: earlier as well. Is enjoy our live chat discord community
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: and our sporadic deep dives, interviews, skill shares, research roundups
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: and rants. We've got some new friends who've joined us
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: in the therap party. Who is new at patreon dot
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: com slash Therapy, Nick.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 4: So new to pod, a new therapod. We've got player
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: number one. I love it Player one, congratulations, welcome to
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: the pod. And Chris love it.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: You know player number one. As soon as player number
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: one joined, they commented on an episode just with feedback, saying,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: oh my god, I relate to the garage door thing
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: like that's absolutely happened to me, and it made me think.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: Whenever I listened to podcasts that tell me, oh, they
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: have a Patreon, I always jump over to their Patreon
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: and I'll like scroll what you can see kind of
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: from the outside, and I'll usually ask myself, oh, well,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: like do I see a lot of comments on the posts?
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: And if I don't see any comments on the posts,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, I don't think this place like there's
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: nothing happening here, Like obviously there's no value here. Nobody
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: else is that into this. I'm not going to be
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: the only person that signs up. And I feel like
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: sometimes we do ourselves a disservice by having such a
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: good discord because you can't see that from the outside.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: So if you ever go to Patreon dot com, slash
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: therapy and you scroll through our content. You won't be
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: able to see all the content, but you'll see like
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: the headlines and stuff, and I think you'll be able
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: to see if there's any likes or comments, and you
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: will rarely see them. I just want to tell you, like,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: that's a really poor representation of like what's actually going on,
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: because if you were to join, you bypass the Patreon,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: you go into the discord. That's where everybody is having long,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: thorough conversations, lots of feedback, and it's a very lively
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: bunch in there. So yeah, I just thought I should
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: say that because that's totally something I think about whenever
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: I visit other people's patreons. But anyway, check us out
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: patreon dot com, slash therapy, suport the show, join our community,
• 1:21:02
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• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: long and inclusive library on all kinds of different things,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: and we're always generating new stuff as we find the
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: opportunity to do so. But as we wrap up the show,
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: we want to thank the benevolent, revered, generous, and flagrantly
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: pro therapy Diehard who loves you all so much they
• 1:21:20
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• 1:21:23
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• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: Members of the fan Club THERAP Producers, thank you, Jake Schneider, Meiro,
• 1:21:29
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  Speaker 4: And if you like to hear this episode herdy, dirty dirty,
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• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: That's all time we up for this week's session.
• 1:22:32
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• 1:22:33
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• 1:22:36
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• 1:22:38
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• 1:22:41
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• 1:22:57
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• 1:23:06
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• 1:23:12
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• 1:23:13
  Speaker 4: You do that to make sure you black out the answers.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: Do whatever the fuck you want. Do whatever, Yeah, just
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: send money. Nineteen year old No, No, that was the
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: one I didn't want you to play. Goodbye everybody Bye.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 4: I shouldn't have said it.