Latest / The Daily Writer / How to Create Multiple Streams of Income with John Stange

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How to Create Multiple Streams of Income with John Stange · The Daily Writer

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Rider.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Each weekday, we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: And here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers as well as teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, most of us become interested in writing because we want to impact people's lives with our words, which of course is possible.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot of other ways that writing can also benefit your life.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: One of those ways is by making income with your writing.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And not just by selling books, but by developing multiple streams of income that are related to your writing.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I've asked my good friend John Stongi to come on the show today and teach us how he does exactly this.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: John is the lead pastor of Core Creek Community Church in Langhorn, Pennsylvania.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: He hosts three podcasts the chapter a day audio bible, which has millions of downloads, daily devotions with Pastor John and Dwell on These Things.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: John has written over 20 books, all of which are focused on spiritual growth, leadership, marriage, and practical aspects of following Jesus.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: He also has a book coming out in May called Dwell on These Things.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the book is a 31-day challenge to help you replace unhealthy messages you preach to yourself with gospel-centered truth.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I really encourage you to check out this book.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a chance to preview it and actually have the opportunity to write an endorsement for it, which was a major honor.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you can go to desireJesus.com to check out that book, which I highly recommend that you do.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I also want to suggest that you pre-order it because it's an awesome book.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: But in this conversation today, John goes into a lot of detail about his various income streams and how they're related to each other.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a fascinating conversation that's going to help you think bigger and give you some really great ideas for developing your own income streams.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So here's my conversation with my good friend, John Stongy.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So let's dive into some things here related to multiple streams of income.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And as we were talking about just a second ago, one of the things that I really want to emphasize on this podcast is not just writing skills and things related to publishing and books and all that stuff.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: But probably even more important, the mindset behind all of that.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we don't have a mindset of thinking like a business person or of an entrepreneur, then none of the other stuff is going to happen because we're just going to give every give everything away for free.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Which I suppose is it's good to be generous, but we also need to be compensated for for what we're doing in our writing.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you taking some time to chat about this stuff.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, happy to.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing that actually got me thinking about this whole topic is you made a post in a group that we're both a part of called Total Life Freedom.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you'd mentioned that you'd recently paid off your house and you kind of mentioned the time frame, and that was a short amount of time.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, you know, it would be really fun to dive into this with John a little bit.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if you if you can, and to the level level of comfort that you're sharing with all this uh information, walk us through the backstory of what are the income streams and business activities that you're doing that made paying off your house possible.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's a variety of things, and it honestly, if I listed them all for you, you would you would probably think it was ridiculous because I have a few that are very minuscule and a few that are more substantial, and they kind of work together to try and accomplish goals like paying off the house or whatever we're trying to do.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I thought I'd probably just focus on the main ones specifically that that seem to be in line with what writers would typically find themselves wanting to do.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh knowing that that's the theme of of your show, and uh also knowing that that that's where a lot of these opportunities have have certainly come from for me.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I have six main uh income streams that have been helping me with some of the the bigger financial goals that I've been aiming for that are that are you know in line with what writers do.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the first would be just independently published books.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So books that I've I published myself, books that are self-published primarily through Amazon's Kindle Direct Publishing platform.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have found that to be a very helpful platform to use.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really what gave me a taste of some of the entrepreneurial things that I'm doing right now.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I really got into book publishing right around 2014.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I noticed that I could write books and I could share them with people and market them through Amazon.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And before I knew it, Amazon was sending me good royalty checks every month.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I tried to keep that pipeline going and I enjoy writing, so I kept writing.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh I still remember the first month that I made more than$100.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow, I mean, I just made more than$100 doing this.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then$100 became$600, and then$600 became$1,000.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a month that was over$2,000, and I thought, oh wow, like this can be an actual thing.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I was kind of amazed at how how efficient that system was for uh just really becoming an income stream quickly.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I I would actually encourage people, if they're thinking about doing something like that, to examine that because some of the things that that do well there don't even have to be long.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that was that was one of the things that I noticed right away.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that led to other things.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the recent opportunities that I was given at the end of 2019, I signed a book deal with Penguin Random House.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there's two ways that I'm earning income there.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: First was an advance that they paid me to write the book.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the I I don't know if your listeners are already familiar with how uh some of these major publishers pay advances, but they don't just uh drive a truck full of money up to your house or something like that and say, hey, where do we drop it off?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't really work that way.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's objectives along the way.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they agree with your agent on an amount, and then they uh also agree on what needs to be delivered, what kind of benchmarks need to be met for certain amounts to be released.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so my advance works in thirds.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, so I received one third when I signed the contract.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I received uh another third uh when my finished manuscript was not just submitted, but accepted.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I remember thinking, I thought that it just submitting it triggered that one and then discovered no, it has to be accepted.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a little time after I submitted it when I received that part of the advance.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last part of the advance I will receive in May of this year when my book is actually published, when it actually goes into stores when it's available.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it they chop it up into thirds, and then going forward from there, then uh there's royalties that I'll receive from them based on book sales after the advance amount is cleared, you know.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So once I earn back the amount that the advance uh happened to be, uh then everything beyond that is royalties that are I I believe are paid to me twice a year through them.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now I know this this can advances can run the range of nothing.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know one publisher that when they sign you, you basically get very little.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Versus somebody that I talked to yesterday for the podcast who got well over a quarter million dollars for an advance.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: For someone who is a first-time author, um, so you're you're not a first-time author, you're obviously got lots of books out there.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: For someone who's a first-time author with it with a major major publisher, are you talking like eating out money?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Are you talking Lamborghini money?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like give us a range of what it what can someone realistically expect.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And again, knowing there's a range of of things there, but realistically, what can someone expect as a first-time author with a major publisher?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't truly know a specific answer for that in a way that I could uh make a generalization that I that I'm a hundred percent certain would be right, but based on what I've seen, I believe that most first-time writers, if they get an advance from a major publisher, would get somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I've been seeing.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's basically what seems to be the case.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what I've been seeing.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my advance was more than that.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it, you know, it was I was pleased and surprised with the amount that they offered me.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that was because I had a track record and I had a platform.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if I didn't have that track record and I didn't have a platform, they would have offered me something lower than they did, but they started up a little bit.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's certainly not a quarter million dollars or anything like that.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, it was a it was a healthy amount, and I was grateful to receive it and uh and thought, you know, that's a a nice way to start off a partnership as we're working together.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, so I'm right now I'm working with Penguin Random House.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're uh their their Christian subdivision is called Waterbrook.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So when my books uh under their label come out, they'll say Waterbrook on them, but the parent company is is uh Penguin Random House.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they have been a pleasure to work with from day one.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: I have liked almost everything about working with them, and it has surprised me because you wonder what some of these companies are going to be like.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to, I'll just admit to you, they were they've been fantastic.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've really liked working with every single person that I've worked with on their team.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: One of the objections that that a lot of first-time authors and sometimes self-published authors have to working with a traditional publisher is that they have given up their intellectual property.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Does that I don't know any other any other way to ask this except does that bother you in this process?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that a concern?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or because of all the benefits that you're getting from working with them, do those outweigh the downside potentially of not having control of your intellectual property?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, the benefits far outweigh the downside.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for for me, I I've just been very thankful for the new opportunities that have come from this.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: And even the credibility that you experience when you work with some of these traditional publishers, there's something to be said for uh a major publisher taking a chance on your work.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And their their credibility tends to factor into your credibility.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in my thinking, and I'm also, by the way, seeing different outlets and venues that my independently published content would not be appearing in.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and because I have this affiliation with them now, I'm seeing if you go to Walmart's website and you search my name, I'll be there.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to Target, you search my name, I'll be there.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to Barnes and Noble, all these different places.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in May, when the book comes out, it's going to be in those stores physically.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not something that I've experienced in the past.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so receiving this uh opportunity to write with Penguin Random House has uh really afforded me an opportunity that is unlike what I experienced before.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I had a lot more control over things before, but I have to tell you, one of the things that so all right, two things.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: One, um, I feel like I had input on everything, but not control over everything.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I had input on things like the cover, but not really control over the cover.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so, you know, there are certain things that I had to say, hey, I have to go with what they want.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I accepted that.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I was surprised, I wondered when I turned in my manuscript and they started editing it and and doing whatever they were going to do to it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then I received it back.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: I wondered how similar it would be to what I turned into them.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I was pleasantly sub uh just surprised and delighted to discover that they didn't alter my manuscript.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: They just suggested things like, hey, uh, you use this word too many times in this chapter.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you suggest a different word?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or we noticed a typo over here, or we don't think you need this uh example or this story.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we take this out of this chapter?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: You have enough content in here already.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, or could you could you put a little something different here?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or could you tie this back to the beginning?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't, they just had helpful suggestions.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't change what I submitted to them.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've often wondered how much of a book you you purchase in a store that's published by a major publisher is the author's own writing and how much has been altered or changed.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you in my case, it's my own writing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: They may have suggest uh suggested an adjective here or there, but they didn't change my book.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so when it when it's uh you know, when it's something like that, uh, you know, I I can put up with some of the the minor inconveniences of not having quite the same level of control that I had when I self-published, but the they are far surpassed by the benefits of working with an outlet like that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's fascinating.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So uh when you were talking, talking with the publisher, or I guess rather talking with your agent, is there a specific threshold at which a publisher is more likely to consider an author?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have a certain number of podcast downloads, a certain number of social media followers, those kinds of metrics?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they have a specific threshold in mind, but I do know that they liked what I presented to them.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So at the time that I signed the contract, my biggest form of outreach was podcast downloads and also book sales.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: My book sales were pretty good too.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the combination of podcast downloads and book sales was uh a winning formula, and they liked the platform that I had developed online and uh the presence there.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I have an excessively strong social media presence, but uh the podcasts are where I'm really connecting with people.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: At the time I signed the contract, I believe I had nearly 2 million downloads, somewhere in that vicinity.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was approaching 2 million downloads.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And now at this point, by the time the book is published and comes out, it'll be over 5 million.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're pleased with how that has gone.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was probably the biggest uh platform credentialing that I was able to offer them, that my podcast had multiple podcasts had had grown to a level that they had grown.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that made them more willing to take a chance on somebody like me that hadn't worked with them yet, because they could see I had a a built-in uh audience, a bit you know, built-in group of people that that were used to accessing my content that I was already connected with.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think it's a good idea for for writers who don't yet have a large following, maybe they don't even have a podcast, to just start self-publishing their stuff, do a great job on that.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because in your case, it sounds like the fact that you had already self-published a bunch of books was a factor that helped the potential publisher to see, hey, this guy knows what he's doing.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: He obviously has a vested interest in this, he's had some success, et cetera, et cetera.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody listening to this podcast right now wants to get signed by a major publisher, I would encourage them to keep investing in their writing, keep self-publishing, do things like that, and figure out how to establish a platform online.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: So set up a simple website, uh, have a bookstore page on your website that that highlights the books that you have available on Amazon, have a blog, um, and consider you know, other things as well.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I love writing and I love podcasting, and so I do both, and they both help the other.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but if I don't so I don't think I would have received an opportunity to write with the publisher I'm writing with if I did not also invest in my online presence, my online platform.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Platform to them was just as important as uh the my my writing ability, the quality of my writing.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: They want to see both.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'll also say this if you are self-publishing, focus on getting reviews for your books on Amazon.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that that helps credential you with potential publishers down the road.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they, you know, they'll look at your reviews, they'll look at at uh your your sales, they'll look at uh how people access your content.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, those are things that I would definitely encourage somebody to focus on.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Great advice.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, by the way.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned your self-published books, your uh book contract with a traditional publisher.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are there some other uh income streams that you want to mention as well?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: There are so if somebody goes to my website, they will find a bookstore.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And on the website, you know, so the obvious way that I would make an income from that is by people purchasing the books.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: But another way that an author can make income on top of their income from doing that is making sure that each of those links is if you're is an affiliate link.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're selling something on Amazon, if you're selling a book on Amazon and you're providing the link on Amazon, sign up for the Amazon Associates program and make sure that your links to your own books are affiliate links uh that are credentialed through Amazon's affiliate program, because Amazon will also give you an affiliate commission for driving traffic to their website.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And for 24 hours, they will, if somebody buys one of your books through one of your affiliate links, they will give you a percentage of royalties on whatever somebody buys in addition to the book.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say they buy your book and a gas grill.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: You get a commission on the grill too, which is it seems crazy, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it, you know, whatever, whatever they buy for 24 hours, if they go to Amazon through your link, uh, that's a a way to earn a little additional money.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a way Amazon thanks you for sending traffic to their website.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people don't take advantage of that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So every one of the books on my website, if you if you bought one of my books through my website directly and clicked on one of those links, Amazon not only would pay me my royalty for the book, but they would also pay me an affiliate commission based on whatever your total order for anything that you purchased on Amazon happened to be.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you go to Amazon and buy one of my books, please also buy a memory foam mattress.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Please also buy a grill and maybe a car, you know?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever else you want to buy.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whatever else.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe real estate too, if they sell it.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's genius.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just such a such a simple thing to do.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's kind of a no-brainer way to make money.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's I mean, it takes no real extra effort other than setting it up one time.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, why not receive the commission that they're willing to give you?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's their way of thanking people for driving traffic to their website.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a system that they have set up to do that very thing.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I realized that that was a way that I could earn a little bit of extra income, you know, my wife and I, we have four children, you know, a lot of mouths to feed.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, our our big goal was to pay off our mortgage.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought every little bit helps.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, you know, in in any given month, uh, Amazon will send me several hundred dollars in affiliate income, you know, so it's not like a ton, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say, you know, some good months are around$300 in just affiliate income.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when you multiply that by$12, that's$3,600 in a year.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most people, if their employer came up to them and said, Hey, we'd like to give you a$3,600 raise this year, I think most people would think, wow, what a great employer.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: They just gave me a raise for$3,600.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why not give yourself a raise of several hundred dollars uh a month or you know, a few thousand dollars a year uh through something simple like that.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like basically a a way to boost your income through no added effort.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like a lot of writers, and I guess online business people as well, anybody who's doing online stuff, the mistake that we so often make is we see the work that it's taken you to set all this up.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've had to write the books, you've had to put the systems in place, you have a website, you have all these things going on.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people quit before they even get started.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: They they think, oh my gosh, this is such a big, massive thing.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I could never do all the stuff John is doing, in addition to having a family and being a pastor or having a job.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: If someone wanted to start today, what is the simplest way they could start with all this?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Would it would the simplest thing be just writing that first book and getting it out there?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good that's all I did at first.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't have a website, I didn't have a blog, I didn't have podcasts, I just wrote books.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then once I wrote several, I thought, you know, it'd be nice to have a place that people could go to to actually see this content all in one spot.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually I I I thought, well, let me I need to set up a website.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, if I'm gonna set up a website, let me make sure that there's a blog with it so I could just, you know, put put some blog content out there as well.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and even prior to setting that up, I it my my trajectory went this way I wrote books, then I started creating podcasts, and then I realized that I needed an online home for people to find all of that stuff.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Under one roof.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I created the website, made sure it had a blog, made sure it had a bookstore page, made sure the podcasts were available on there.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then all the additional things that I've been doing on top of that, I keep putting on there as well.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it grows, but it doesn't grow in a day.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And these were ideas that over the course of years, I added one more thing.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: All you have to do is work on the thing that you're working on and think about what the next most logical step is.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think about steps five, six, and seven.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Don't even worry about that.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just do the next thing you're supposed to do.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And before you know it, you'll have something built that you look back on and say, okay, I'm pleased with how this was developed, but you don't develop it in one day.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Just be pleased as you as you add one piece to it at a time.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: That is absolutely such a critical piece of information.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad you said that, John, because a lot of times we just get paralyzed by, oh, what's out two or three years down the road?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can never do that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: That seems like such an overwhelming thing.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: But the cool thing is that once you do these different things, like a podcast and books and a website and Amazon stuff, and all the other things, and there's lots of other things that you're doing that that we haven't even mentioned here today.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Those things start to cross-pollinate and build on each other and feed into each other.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, you can use your podcast to promote your books and your book to promote your podcast and your newsletter.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it just all starts to feed on each other.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's not the right image.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like a horror movie, but uh, but that's the best image I can think of.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: But isn't that true though?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: It all just starts to build, and before long, you have this really cool momentum going and lots more passive income streams as well.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and it starts to hit a tipping point after a while, once it gains some momentum where it's not so hard to get it moving because you've been working on it for a while and and the value of it becomes pretty established.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then before you know it, it uh it really does turn into something that can be a meaningful source of added income, or in in many cases, it can become a primary income.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to I want to wrap up with this question.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I could talk to you for hours about that stuff, but I I know your time is really valuable.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I work at a Christian college, I've worked there for a long time.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're a pastor, I have a heart for pastors, so I I want to ask this question kind of on behalf of any pastors or church leaders who are listening.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: How does having multiple income streams, many of which are are mostly passive, how does that change your leadership as a pastor or as a Christian leader?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And here's here's what I mean by that.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think my question is very clear.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you are only relying on your income from your church, if you work at a church or from a Christian organization, I think psychologically that sometimes affects how you lead because you're always kind of responding a little bit in fear to everything because if you lose that job, you're kind of hosed.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: But when you have these multiple income streams and your your church salary is not your only source of revenue, how does that change how you approach your your leadership?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I love that question.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things that excites me most about doing entrepreneurial things.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: In my case, it allows me to say yes to things and I don't have to worry about getting paid.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I can do what I feel like I'm called to do without having to ask to be paid to do it.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that results in just all sorts of opportunities that I'm able to agree to just as a donation of my time or whatever it may be.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the way it works out in our local church, I'll give you an example.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you the structure, how we have this set up, and then a real life example that actually just happened.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I have an agreement with the elders of our church that I get paid last.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so the way that works out is every bill, every insurance, every program cost, every staff salary, everything gets paid before I get paid.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then if they can afford to pay me, they pay me.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if they can't afford to pay me, then they don't.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we just let it be at that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a series, uh, there was a good stretch of time several years ago because we started this church.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a replant.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you're replanting a church essentially from scratch, uh, you don't have a whole bunch of funding or anything like that.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and so this was a big step of faith for us.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um there were seasons early in the church's ministry where they legitimately weren't able to pay me.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and uh, and if I didn't have something else going on uh in addition to that source of income, I you know, we would have been stuck because you know, my wife and I, we had a mortgage and we have four kids and and all of that.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so our goal was to be as financially free as we could possibly be, because that allows us to say yes to so many things.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the ways that this benefits the church directly, uh, several months ago, we it was time for us to hire an additional member of our staff.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to hire a children's and youth pastor.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I sat down with the elders and we were discussing this, and we figured out what kind of financial package we would need to put together to be able to hire somebody and put them on staff.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the elders, you know, looked at me and said, you know, this is something we want to do, but are we sure we can afford this long term?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I'm certain you can because keep in mind the agreement we have.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: If uh if if we get to a spot here where let's say the finances are tight, all you need to do is just pay him first.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just pay him first.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if if it needs to mean that I don't take any pay, it's fine because it's not my only thing.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so that allows us to say yes to things that are benefiting the church in general.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, the guy that we just hired is doing fantastic.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm so grateful for that.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the interesting thing is, you know, in our context, we we see the Lord's provided the finances to be able to have him on staff.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, we're grateful that that, you know, that option hasn't had to be pulled of us going without salary or anything like that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: But everybody knows that if that needs to be the case, that that's totally fine.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and we're okay with it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I also think that it helps me in regard to leadership.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: During this past year, in um, you know, in the midst of all the the things happening with COVID and all that, there's all sorts of opinions that everybody has on that.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and churches have had a really tough time trying to navigate that.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are some people that during this season have wanted me to lead one way, and other people that have wanted me to lead another way.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to be put in a spot where I basically had to decide what's the most right thing I can do.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: What am I supposed to do?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's the right thing to do?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Not what's everyone's opinion about how I should lead and and how our church should operate during this time, but what is the way that I believe is the right way that I'm supposed to do this, because I knew there were going to be consequences one way or another.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: No decision I made was going to please everybody.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was able to make conscience, like decisions that that that were conscience decisions.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was able to lead based on what I felt like was the right thing to do, uh, knowing that, hey, this is the type of thing that could get you fired, right?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you upset enough people and you serve in a role like this.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have to worry about that because my house is paid off.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so if I get fired from a job, um, that's not, and I knew that the church wasn't gonna do that to me, by the way.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I that's not the kind of relationship we have, it's not adversarial.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I also knew in the back of my mind, practically speaking, if something extreme like that happened, it's okay.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna lose my house.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's already paid for.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I have other streams of income.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I could feed my family at this point on those streams of income.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that took a long time to build up, but that's kind of where we're at right now.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can I even list a couple other streams of income that writers might be interested in?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Please do.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: All right, real quick, ads on the blog.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So uh there now that now that my website has good search traffic and uh visitors, you know, I I blog at least once a week.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I have like a 2,000, 2200-word article that I'll put out once a week.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there are people that advertise there.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also, I uh there are people that hire me to do webinars that I've listed on the website.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll do the webinars.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: There are people that participate in my Patreon just to have additional uh access that, you know, an interaction.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so they'll contribute toward the Patreon campaign that we have going up on our website uh to have that additional access.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: There are also speaking opportunities that come from my book subjects and some of the training uh content that I've listed on the website.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And when I go and speak in those places, if I'm able to do so in person, there's also a book table that I'll set up.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so my books are able to be sold at a book table.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I've also set up a media kit where different people can look at my website and decide if they want to advertise on there or if they want to advertise on my podcasts or or something like that.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they could request the media kit and then we can kind of walk through what works for them.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I can, if I believe in what they're doing, I can help promote what they're doing while at the same time earning uh some level of income through advertising sources.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the combination of all of those things, plus I've got a few unrelated things that I'll I'll do from time to time as well that aren't really related to writing, but the combination of those things allowed us to pay off our house well ahead of schedule.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: We don't live an extravagant life.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I drive a 2005 Civic on purpose because I wanted to pay that house off, and I've got four kids to take care of.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I wanted to be financially free, not burdened with things to show off.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Although I probably am going to, I'm probably gonna upgrade the car.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've been driving the same car for 13 years.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I think I might upgrade it sometime soon, but I'm not gonna upgrade it with a loan.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm you know, I'm gonna wait and save up and and pay cash for it.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so the the point being, um, you know, having these multiple streams of income, it opens up a door to allow you to be able to say yes to things that you feel that you are called to do.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't even have to take money for it because you've you've figured out the money piece through other means by the value that you that you offer people through some of the things that you're building online, through your writing, through your podcasting, through other means like that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is possible.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: It does take a little while to put together, but it's it's totally possible to do it.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is something that is is missing sadly from our ministry training curriculum that no matter what denomination you come from, this is something that needs to be a part of how we train pastors, I believe.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very strongly about that.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's a radical shift in thinking for the vast majority of churches and church leaders and seminaries and Christian colleges.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: But man, you're you're paving the way.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just so appreciate you coming on the show and sharing this and sharing your heart.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully that's at some point we can do something to help our younger pastors and more experienced pastors as well, think think more like entrepreneurs.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think, man, that's there's so many benefits that come from that.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you sharing all this, John.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for giving me the opportunity to to chat about it.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it's helpful to somebody, whether they're in ministry like I am or not, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it you know, and just uh we could all benefit from this if if um you know we really invest in in in the opportunities that are right before us.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I even think you know, those that that feel a calling to serve in ministry, I think there's so many things we can say yes to if we don't have to worry about the financial piece.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we can just serve for the joy of serving, and um, and it's it's a it's worth pursuing.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's worth looking into uh because it can be done ethically and it can be done in in a way that that honors our core convictions and uh and it makes it so it's not so much of a focus, makes it a secondary thing.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: The financial thing becomes a secondary thing, and the service becomes the primary thing.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, how can people find out more about your book, your ministry, every everything that you're doing?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: My website is desirejesus.com.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if people want to stop by and check out some of the things that I just referenced, it's all there at desirejesus.com.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And my upcoming book, it'll be released on May 25th.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Dwell on These Things.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a 31-day challenge to start talking to yourself like God talks to you.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a book that I hope will be a huge encouragement to people that maybe feel a bit taxed and a bit overwhelmed with just all the mental burdens we've experienced over this past year.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the message we preach to our hearts isn't very helpful when we're in the midst of stressful situations.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a book that is geared toward helping our minds dwell on the right thing.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's called Dwell on These Things.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I hope it'll it'll take readers through a process of really preaching a helpful message to their heart that's more in line with the type of things that God's trying to tell us all along the way.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, we have a little contest among a couple of us uh in the TLF group about on the day that your book is released, who can post the picture first of a print copy from a local store?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know about this.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's cool.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a little hidden thing, but uh I'm gonna try and involve some other people in it because I think it just sounds like a blast.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm really shooting to be first to win that contest.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well, I hope your local stores have it.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm you know, that's I haven't been told what stores it's going to be in for sure yet.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, what if your local store doesn't have it?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna have to go ask for it, I guess.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can request books at Barnes and Noble.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll get it in.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm gonna have to be a little proactive.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: And my wife used to work at our local one.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'll get her involved in it too.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a fun contest.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: I might even join you guys on that contest, see if I could find my own book in a store.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Where's my book?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can't.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where is it?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll go put one of my books there.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: It'll really use like the the scanner people that are like, we don't carry this.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Where is it?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Where'd this come from?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, John.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you and all the goodness that you're bringing into the world.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks again.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Kent, thank you as well.