Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James Lark about his choice of Mawdryn Undead (1/4)

Transcript

Talks to James Lark about his choice of Mawdryn Undead (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker Welcome back
• 0:37
  to a hamster with a blood pen knife, the Doctor Who commentary
• 0:41
  podcast. I said that so fast it was
• 0:44
  almost one word. I am here today with the
• 0:48
  handsome, the erudite, the wonderfully smart, the composer
• 0:53
  of the most beautiful podcast theme of all time, Mr. James
• 0:59
  Lark. Hello, James.
• 1:00
  Hello, Joe. Thank you.
• 1:01
  I mean, yeah. Fuck Morden undead.
• 1:05
  Can we please talk about that theme just for a second?
• 1:07
  Do you know how many times I've listened to that to sift out all
• 1:10
  the different lines? Do you know how many times I had
• 1:13
  to go through it? I mean, do you know how many
• 1:17
  individual recordings are in that?
• 1:20
  Is it? You probably lost count.
• 1:22
  I mean you were sending. 20. No. 30 it's.
• 1:26
  More like 30, but I think it's more.
• 1:29
  Or just how it builds and builds and builds.
• 1:32
  But of course as well, like it was, it was a sort of a trip
• 1:36
  away thing for me. Sorry if you've come for Morden
• 1:38
  undead, fuck off. It was the IT was the fact that
• 1:42
  it was just a beautiful piece of music.
• 1:44
  It was the fact that it really keyed in on the fact that this
• 1:48
  is like a community podcast and that everyone got to get
• 1:51
  involved. But then it was also the fact
• 1:53
  that I had so much fun trying to identify all those bloody lines
• 1:57
  and where they were from as well.
• 1:59
  There's still some that elude me.
• 2:01
  After the game, have you worked out what the first the very
• 2:03
  first line comes from? Is it transit?
• 2:08
  I think it's transit. Yeah.
• 2:10
  Yeah, I figured that one out. Yeah.
• 2:12
  Well, and it's Anthony Carroll is beautiful.
• 2:15
  I mean, part of part of the reason for putting that at the
• 2:17
  beginning was was Anthony Carroll.
• 2:19
  Part of the reason was I wanted a line with the Doctor in
• 2:21
  because obviously that kind of set it's a.
• 2:23
  Doctor alone on a Devonian beach.
• 2:26
  Lovely. Eye, though, isn't.
• 2:27
  It Yeah, although then Toby comes in, don't he with from a
• 2:31
  from a ruin of a city. He's stopped the ruin of a man
• 2:36
  and I'll be there somewhere. And then I noticed, actually I
• 2:39
  noticed James, that you put in yourself saying I have to throw
• 2:43
  a blood pen knife or do it quick.
• 2:45
  I didn't. It took me a little while and I
• 2:48
  was like, hang on a minute. I swear that's in there.
• 2:51
  Yeah. It really does reward relisting
• 2:54
  though. That was part of the idea as
• 2:56
  well. I thought if you're going to
• 2:57
  have this at the beginning of every podcast and people are
• 2:59
  going to listen to it again and again, you don't want them kind
• 3:02
  of getting bored after the first couple of listeners.
• 3:05
  And I think it works like that. I think I think I'm not not
• 3:10
  always keen to have re listened to my own work, but that one I'm
• 3:13
  I've. Quite enjoyed, it's fabulous
• 3:15
  everything I could have heard it for.
• 3:16
  Broadcast each time. Thank you very much.
• 3:20
  It's an absolute pleasure. My ears certainly got some use
• 3:23
  out of it. Bloody hell.
• 3:25
  And it's so delightful now because I'm obviously
• 3:27
  republishing some of the old book clubs.
• 3:29
  And to put that at the start, that's the sort of like the
• 3:31
  stamp that it's, it's the new book club, even though they're
• 3:34
  old episodes that have gone out already.
• 3:36
  Branding. Branding.
• 3:37
  Yeah, fabulous. It's gone down a storm as well.
• 3:40
  The new one. Good.
• 3:41
  Well, that's that's nice here as well.
• 3:42
  God, all the work we all put into it.
• 3:44
  I mean, Jesus Christ, thank God for that.
• 3:47
  Well, look, we're not here to indulge in hyperbole about our
• 3:50
  our endeavours elsewhere. We're here to indulge in
• 3:55
  hyperbole about the works of basirs, Peter Davison, Peter
• 3:59
  Moffett's Eric's Awards, Mark Strickson and Janet Fielding.
• 4:05
  What are we here to talk about today?
• 4:06
  We're here to talk about a story called Maudrin Undead.
• 4:11
  Your choice. Definitely your choice.
• 4:14
  It was my choice, Yeah. A conscious, A conscious and
• 4:18
  thoughtful choice. You've you've mentioned everyone
• 4:21
  apart from the the writer. Oh, sorry, Peter Grimwaite.
• 4:25
  I do apologise, you know. I mean, I'm surprised you got
• 4:27
  another go after Timefly, aren't you?
• 4:29
  I'm. Very surprised.
• 4:31
  And I mean, this isn't in a different league, but but I
• 4:34
  mean. Somehow, you know his third
• 4:38
  attempt at a Doctor Who script won the Strictly Come Hamster
• 4:42
  Season 21. Did it.
• 4:45
  I'd forgotten that. And it was fire.
• 4:47
  Yeah, yeah. That wasn't, I mean, that's.
• 4:50
  Odd. Yeah, I was batting for
• 4:53
  Resurrection of the Daleks. Actually, you know what I was.
• 4:55
  Coming. Yeah, although that's, you know,
• 4:57
  that's not a very good script either.
• 4:58
  So I mean, I mean, I, I, I was batting for the awakening.
• 5:03
  Yeah, well, yes, I that is the sort of fringe opinion for that
• 5:08
  season. That's the favorite.
• 5:10
  Well, can I ask you a question then about because, you know,
• 5:12
  we've never explored Peter Davison too much before.
• 5:15
  Can I ask you, you know, what are your sort of opening
• 5:18
  thoughts, his doctor this season in particular?
• 5:21
  And why this story? I think I have weighed in in a
• 5:27
  number of Strictly episodes certainly and I've been slightly
• 5:31
  told off by some of the the other participants on my
• 5:34
  heretical Davison views. My view is that season 20 is his
• 5:37
  best season by country mile and. You are joking me.
• 5:43
  No, no, that's not a joke at all.
• 5:48
  OK, well, please, please continue.
• 5:51
  Very kind of obscure joke, wouldn't you?
• 5:52
  Wouldn't expect a laugh from a joke like that, would you?
• 5:55
  I am laughing though. Imagine that being your stand up
• 5:58
  routing. In the certain crowd, you know,
• 6:04
  you get a big laugh. I know that there are, there is
• 6:08
  a large body of opinion that season 19 is, is a great season.
• 6:13
  I know people have a real nostalgic attachment to it.
• 6:17
  And I've heard the arguments, I've heard Rob Shearman argue
• 6:21
  eloquently for every story in season 19 and compelling
• 6:26
  arguments indeed. And I sort of agreed with him at
• 6:28
  the time. But I'm afraid fundamentally, I
• 6:31
  just don't think the the the quality control is very high in
• 6:37
  that season. I think that the the accusation
• 6:42
  that's often levelled up at Davidson full stop is beige.
• 6:44
  I think that season 19 is the is the beigist of his seasons.
• 6:52
  You look like please. Continue.
• 6:54
  I mean, I think this is the beige of his season.
• 6:57
  Well, I, I, I, I hear you. I'm going to, I'm going to argue
• 7:02
  as to why it's not, you've got Castro, Valva is not.
• 7:06
  Look, it's not a great story. You've just made so hard wait.
• 7:12
  I know that's no, no, no, no, no, but I know that people have
• 7:15
  this nostalgic attachment to it. It's particularly coming after
• 7:19
  season 18. It's so children's television.
• 7:22
  There's so much about it. I find kind of cringe the design
• 7:26
  that like, I know that there's some lofty ideals there, but I I
• 7:29
  find the thing a bit of a chore to watch for to doomsday.
• 7:34
  Obviously a chore Kinder is brilliant.
• 7:37
  I mean, that's, that's absolutely that the high point
• 7:40
  of the season. Did it win strictly?
• 7:42
  It did, although, you know, like it's brilliant, but there are
• 7:45
  some production deficiencies. There are indeed, there are
• 7:48
  indeed. And and hold that thought.
• 7:50
  The visitation is a it's a real plodder.
• 7:53
  I mean, it's sort of cosy and comforting, but it's so slow and
• 7:57
  it's so kind of underwritten. You're on Lucy Mccall's list
• 8:00
  now? Oh.
• 8:01
  No, I'm sorry. Well, I'm not trying to make
• 8:03
  enemies. I'm just trying to explain where
• 8:04
  I'm coming from because this. Is doing a bad job then, if
• 8:06
  that's what you're not trying to do.
• 8:09
  Black Orchid doesn't work. It's a, it's a, it's a charming
• 8:12
  and lovely episode 1, and Rob Shearman spoke eloquently about
• 8:15
  how lovely it was to see the TARDIS team relaxing.
• 8:18
  But you cannot do a murder mystery.
• 8:21
  And the solution is you leap into the TARDIS and prove that
• 8:24
  you're an alien, so you can't possibly have committed murder.
• 8:26
  It doesn't work. And it's also kind of tasteless
• 8:29
  Earth. Shock utterly tasteless upper
• 8:32
  classes locking up that poor disfigured man.
• 8:36
  I mean, it's outrageous. Horrible.
• 8:38
  What happens at the end of that Earth Shock?
• 8:40
  Look, we've all loved Earth shock, but I'm not sure it kind
• 8:45
  of bears the sort of repeated feeling that I have given it.
• 8:49
  It's not one that I go back to terribly often anymore these
• 8:53
  days, and it's not quite as fast and fancy as people remember it
• 8:57
  being. Because it's, yeah, it's. 50
• 9:00
  years old. Right.
• 9:03
  And then you got time flight saying no more.
• 9:06
  Season 21, of course, will be a lot of people's favorites
• 9:08
  because it's much more crashy and bashy and explosive.
• 9:11
  And there are things that I like about it, but I don't think, you
• 9:14
  know, however much the warriors of the deep apologists will
• 9:18
  argue that it's that it's actually a great.
• 9:20
  Tenant. I do, James.
• 9:21
  Boy, do they. They do, but it's not sorry.
• 9:25
  No, it's overlit. It's poorly acted.
• 9:28
  It it it. It also has a a redesign of some
• 9:32
  classic monsters that is actually offensively bad.
• 9:36
  Always smiling aren't they though?
• 9:37
  Salary. Always smiling and well and, and
• 9:40
  and. What is it with the Sea Devils
• 9:42
  heads? Kind of always to the 45.
• 9:44
  In the back of scenes they look like they've all nodded off,
• 9:47
  don't they? You know, they've you know,
• 9:48
  they've changed the merker effects and then they're putting
• 9:51
  it on the big screen and the BFII mean it's still that
• 9:53
  tedious story. I'll tell you what.
• 9:56
  I'll tell you what is unforgivable out about the
• 9:59
  Merca. It's not the the Merca itself,
• 10:01
  it's that it's in the script and there's absolutely no need for
• 10:05
  it. You have already got Solerians
• 10:07
  and Sea Devils. Why do you need a Merca?
• 10:10
  You've got? What?
• 10:11
  How about? How about spending a little bit
• 10:13
  more money on your your, your monster costumes and then
• 10:18
  getting those shots right rather than trying to make this this
• 10:21
  unfinished wet painted monster work.
• 10:25
  It's it's quite. Angry there.
• 10:27
  You know, I've got to get a Ouija board and we can get in
• 10:29
  touch with Pennant. Roberts.
• 10:31
  Ask him. What's Eric's say we're there
• 10:33
  for except to go? Why don't we just scratch the
• 10:36
  Murka and have some more sea levels there?
• 10:39
  What's a script? Out of the four.
• 10:41
  Well, no, he wasn't a script over, and Levine was at this
• 10:43
  point, wasn't he? The Awakening is lovely,
• 10:47
  Frontios is lovely, but I but somehow weirdly forgettable.
• 10:53
  Oh, you're mad. I love that story.
• 10:56
  Davidson's best. Performance he's very no
• 10:59
  Davidson is is I think Davidson gets better and better he's so
• 11:02
  good in season 21. He's great in front of us I I I
• 11:06
  enjoy front of us while I'm watching it.
• 11:07
  It just leaves no impression. I'd say the same about planet of
• 11:10
  fire. There's a lot to like about it,
• 11:12
  but. A lovely score.
• 11:14
  Planet of Fire. I've seen Planet of Fire quite
• 11:16
  recently and I still can't really remember what happens in
• 11:19
  it. All you've got to do really is
• 11:21
  focus on Turlo's. Pallow and his pants.
• 11:23
  Yeah, I mean. That's.
• 11:24
  That's that's the last Howard. And his chest out, you know?
• 11:28
  And resolution. Resurrection of the dialects is
• 11:31
  a lot of fun, but it's a bloody mess, isn't it?
• 11:33
  I mean it. It's it.
• 11:36
  I don't really believe in the concept of guilty pleasures, but
• 11:38
  if I did, I think resurrection would be the guiltiest of.
• 11:42
  Yes, guilty. I mean, it's literally a bloody
• 11:44
  mess, that one. There's corpses everywhere,
• 11:46
  isn't there? Dalek guts everywhere, sort of
• 11:49
  foam flying about the place. I mean, that poor warehouse at
• 11:52
  the end is littered with corpses, isn't it?
• 11:55
  And you know, Andrzani obviously is, is great and particularly
• 11:58
  notable for, you know, the score and the direction and the style.
• 12:01
  But it is then followed by the twin Dilemma, which again, I
• 12:05
  know there are apologists, but it's not, it's not very good.
• 12:09
  Boss eyed slugs don't make particularly compelling
• 12:12
  monsters, do they? They don't.
• 12:13
  Yeah, but wait, hang on. All right, Well done.
• 12:16
  You've gone through all of 19 and 20.
• 12:18
  I mean, now let me please hear your case for Arc of Infinity,
• 12:21
  Terminus and the King's Demons, three of the dreariest Doctor
• 12:25
  Who stories of all time. Do you find Arc Infinity dreary?
• 12:27
  Because I would say it's. It's not a.
• 12:29
  Great story. But.
• 12:30
  Tedious. It's so brown, that story, it's
• 12:33
  so boring to look at. I don't think it is brown.
• 12:37
  I think it's all the colours. I think it's garish like the
• 12:40
  claws of Axos garish. It's it's all those multi
• 12:43
  coloured Time Lords and it's Omega and his weird multi
• 12:46
  coloured TARDIS and his multi coloured monster and he melts
• 12:49
  and snot comes out of him and and then it's kind of Amsterdam
• 12:52
  looking. I agree, about as unappealing as
• 12:57
  you can make a tourist hotspot look.
• 12:59
  But the best weekend ever in Amsterdam?
• 13:02
  It did not look like that. No, it's like it.
• 13:05
  It is weird how how grey they've made Amsterdam look, but there
• 13:10
  but there's a lot of running around in it and I I kind of
• 13:13
  enjoy the like I I think it's a check your brain out at the door
• 13:18
  set of set of episodes, But but oh.
• 13:20
  Wait, I've just figured it out. I remember you was a huge fan of
• 13:23
  Lung Barrow and that was obsessed with bio data as well.
• 13:26
  OK, I'm seeing the themes here. Yeah, go on then.
• 13:29
  Keep going through the season. Snake dance, I think may be the
• 13:32
  best story that Peter Davidson ever recorded.
• 13:36
  Colette O'Neill in that. And one of the great and one of
• 13:38
  the finest bits of Doctor Who. I mean, it's, it's, it's a
• 13:42
  cracking script. It's such a good piece of
• 13:45
  writing, but it's also really well designed.
• 13:47
  It's so well, I love that everyone in that cast is playing
• 13:49
  it like it's Shakespeare And, and it, it's sort of there's a
• 13:55
  lot of there's a lot of Davison that doesn't work.
• 13:58
  There's a lot of decisions that I think can be laid both at the
• 14:02
  the feet of JNT and Eric Saywood.
• 14:07
  And you just think kind of think that wasn't a good idea.
• 14:10
  Why, you know, it wasn't a good idea to have all those people in
• 14:14
  the TARDIS in season 19. It wasn't a good idea to put
• 14:17
  Tegan into that costume. There's a lot of wrong
• 14:20
  headedness about it. That is kind of of it's time.
• 14:23
  But just occasionally everything is now together.
• 14:27
  And in Snake Dance, I think I think you see that all come
• 14:30
  together more than undead. We'll talk about at length,
• 14:34
  obviously, but I really like it. I know it's not the most, it's
• 14:37
  not a fan favorite, but I think it's got an awful lot to enjoy.
• 14:41
  I think it's more thoughtful than your average Oh yeah,
• 14:45
  Davidson story, and there's some weighty ideas in it that are
• 14:49
  worth consideration, but I do What about?
• 14:51
  The classic Who story set in two time zones.
• 14:55
  Not many. The Day of the Daleks.
• 14:57
  Right. Oh, that might be it.
• 14:59
  It's funny. Isn't it?
• 15:01
  Until you get to Steven Moffett, and then it's every story.
• 15:03
  Every other story it's, yeah, it it's got a unique atmosphere as
• 15:08
  well. But we'll talk more about that.
• 15:09
  Terminus, I think, is a really good slice of television.
• 15:13
  You're mad. Oh, it's so boring.
• 15:17
  I. Don't think it is boring, I
• 15:19
  think it's slow but warriors gate is slow and everyone pause
• 15:23
  heaps that with agile. Warriors Gate has some style
• 15:25
  about it, you know, it's, it's some crafted direction.
• 15:30
  Yeah, but no. But even by her own admission,
• 15:33
  she ran out of time by Peter Davidson's submission.
• 15:36
  They were literally practically filming it live.
• 15:40
  And you can really see it. Still, you've still got some
• 15:43
  really unnerving scenes there. All that stuff in Part 1 with
• 15:47
  the kind of the door that. Yeah, I like Part 1.
• 15:51
  OK, so you like 1/4 of it? I do, but then as soon as you
• 15:55
  hit terminus I'm basically out. It's got some really interesting
• 15:58
  concepts in it. It's.
• 16:00
  The big dog. I mean, it's the big dog is it's
• 16:04
  a thing that doesn't work and obviously, but I've but mixed in
• 16:08
  with the big dog is, is all those brilliant performances
• 16:12
  that the, you know, the, what are they called the people
• 16:14
  behind the. The veneer.
• 16:16
  The veneer, that's it. I mean, they're working with
• 16:18
  these awful, clattering costumes, but there's some
• 16:21
  really good performances. Oh, yeah, When they're going up
• 16:24
  and down the stairs, all of that plastic clattering, you know,
• 16:28
  the dog Gallagher wanted, he wanted that dog just in
• 16:32
  silhouette coming out of the dock, just the red eye.
• 16:35
  That's it. And not even as a dog, just a
• 16:38
  sort of monstrous shape that you couldn't actually discern.
• 16:41
  But unfortunately, J&T is like, Nope, we've got to see it.
• 16:44
  So you pull mistakes again. Anyway, sorry.
• 16:46
  What's after that? Oh, enlightenment.
• 16:48
  Fabulous. Right, fabulous.
• 16:50
  So. So you're agreeing with me that
• 16:53
  Snake Dance, Mordrin, and Enlightenment are?
• 16:56
  Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:57
  But I said arc Infinity terminus at the.
• 17:00
  King Stevens There's no time, flight or twin dilemma.
• 17:04
  In that is arc of Infinity. It's the time.
• 17:07
  For I, I, I would watch Ark of Infinity 20 times in a row
• 17:11
  rather than watch time flight. Please don't do that, all right?
• 17:13
  You'll drive yourself mad. And look, the King's Demons has
• 17:18
  it's another two parter with a with a ropey Part 2.
• 17:20
  But Part 1 has got jousting and it's got really sexy location
• 17:25
  footage and it's got kings and castles and it's got a sword
• 17:28
  fight. I sort of think if you're going
• 17:30
  to do a flimsy 2 parter that's that packs a lot of stuff in
• 17:34
  that I enjoy seeing. I very much compare it to the
• 17:38
  androids of Tara though, and it is so wanting in comparison to
• 17:42
  that. It's no Androids of Tara.
• 17:44
  Fun in the way that Williams was.
• 17:47
  But if I'm going to watch A2 parter, is it going to be the
• 17:49
  one where they play cricket and have tea, or is it going to be
• 17:51
  the one where there's some jousting and a sword fight?
• 17:53
  It's going to be the sword fight one, right?
• 17:55
  I mean, I I hear what you're saying and I've mostly agree
• 17:59
  with your things on the positive so.
• 18:01
  But then, you see, I adore, I adore kinda, I adore
• 18:07
  Resurrection of Daleks and Frontiers and The Case of Andrew
• 18:10
  Zani. And so for me, the highest are
• 18:11
  higher in those other seasons than this.
• 18:14
  Apart from possibly Snake Dance and Enlightenment.
• 18:17
  This is good. That too late Snake dance and
• 18:19
  Enlightenment is is a kind of those two, but also modern maybe
• 18:27
  epitomize why I think this season is his strongest taken as
• 18:31
  a whole, because I just think they absolutely reek atmosphere
• 18:35
  and if season 21 is lacking something, it's maybe just a
• 18:38
  kind of a consistency of of atmosphere and tone.
• 18:42
  I mean, what described the atmosphere in Resurrection?
• 18:47
  Murder house, you know. Murder House.
• 18:50
  Dirty warehouses with bodies. Everywhere it's like it's the
• 18:54
  music that goes. Bam, bam, bam, bam.
• 18:58
  Malcolm Clark. Yeah.
• 19:00
  Malcolm Clark. Malcolm Clark did the music for
• 19:02
  enlightenment. That's a beautiful school, isn't
• 19:06
  it? But that sort of shows, I think
• 19:09
  that shows what like Malcolm Clark is, is a weird kind of
• 19:14
  empath where he writes weird music in response to what he
• 19:17
  sees. And in Enlightenment, he writes
• 19:20
  genuinely. He writes an absolute onslaught
• 19:25
  on the senses. Do you remember when they're out
• 19:27
  on the shit, out on the deck, and there's that woman you can
• 19:30
  hear singing? It's like it's coming from the
• 19:32
  stars. No, but nothing beats the music
• 19:36
  in motion. Undead, though.
• 19:41
  I mean, it's like a rock concert in your house, isn't it?
• 19:45
  I mean, Paddy Kingston's background was in rock, you
• 19:47
  know, he was in David Bowie's band for I think.
• 19:49
  Was he? I believe so may or have I just
• 19:52
  made that look, I just said it probably some a.
• 19:55
  Real. Now pick it up.
• 19:57
  Put that on the Internet as a fact.
• 19:59
  It's the truth now. Everyone is wiki page Sue James
• 20:03
  Locke have to have blood pen knife.
• 20:07
  I mean, like I sort of swing this round to OK, but I am, I
• 20:12
  mean, I'm not convinced by your argument because I'm not you,
• 20:15
  but I am compelled by your argument in in you've sold to me
• 20:19
  season 20 in a way that frankly, I've never considered it before.
• 20:23
  Bravo, Sir. It's all entirely subjective as
• 20:25
  well, isn't it? Well, absolutely.
• 20:29
  What I was going to say is my my one big sticking point.
• 20:34
  And the last time I talked about this on a hamster blood pen
• 20:37
  knife and that was a phrase of Gregory.
• 20:38
  I mean, Can you imagine when I said this?
• 20:41
  What I'm about to say to you now, which is my big sticking
• 20:44
  point with this story is, and it generally is whenever he's
• 20:48
  directing a story, is PM Moffett, who.
• 20:51
  I think there is a far more dynamic story to be had here.
• 20:56
  And those stationary cameras and those sort of boring angles that
• 21:00
  he goes for. There is the occasional artistic
• 21:03
  flourish, but he wasn't he was a Workman like director, wasn't
• 21:07
  he? He wasn't.
• 21:08
  He's hardly the most dynamic of. Well, except I've just been
• 21:10
  listening to your commentary on Stage of Decay, and that's got
• 21:13
  some really. Good.
• 21:14
  Yes. I think he came in with some
• 21:17
  ideas. The quadrille and all of that
• 21:19
  and the bat overlaying, Yes. Yeah.
• 21:21
  But then you get some something like the two doctors.
• 21:23
  Now I love the two doctors, but a lot of that shot and long
• 21:26
  shot, you know, like he's gone to lunch and said to the camera
• 21:29
  and we'll just fix it there. We'll go and have a siesta.
• 21:31
  Come on. Yeah, possibly.
• 21:33
  What happens? Yeah, I.
• 21:35
  Imagine so. Yeah, well, why Mordred?
• 21:38
  Undead don't chase. Well, because you put me on the
• 21:42
  spot and asked me to pick a Davidson.
• 21:45
  So I I honed in on my favorite season, Mordred Undead.
• 21:50
  So I didn't go for the obvious because I'm contrary like that.
• 21:55
  And I, I guess Mordred is one that I think in spite of its
• 22:03
  shortcomings, and there are some it, it's got a really potent
• 22:08
  atmosphere. I find modern undead really
• 22:11
  moving actually. What, in like the last couple of
• 22:15
  episodes or the Brigadier storyline not?
• 22:18
  Much happens in modern undead, particularly in the last couple
• 22:21
  of episodes, but I still think it sort of manages to sustain
• 22:25
  its momentum through sheer atmosphere.
• 22:28
  I mean, it's about suicide, for God's sake.
• 22:30
  Yeah, It's not really stated in a very strong way because it's
• 22:34
  still, you know, for kiddie wings on a Saturday evening,
• 22:38
  but. He he euthanises a room full of
• 22:42
  people, doesn't he? That's the.
• 22:44
  That's the one. My other issue here is I think
• 22:47
  occasionally Davison isn't giving everything he could.
• 22:51
  Oh, that's absolutely true, but. And that's unusual because I
• 22:56
  think he normally gives more than he should.
• 22:59
  But I think there's a, there's a few moments in season 20 where
• 23:03
  he's making that decision to not come back strikes, you know,
• 23:09
  lots of stuffs happening behind the scene.
• 23:11
  And I can see a sort of God, I mean, another couple of years of
• 23:15
  this. I mean, he said it, didn't he?
• 23:17
  He said, he said that if he'd had 21 as 20, he would have done
• 23:21
  another year, but he had 20 as 20.
• 23:24
  And he said I'm not only doing one more year.
• 23:27
  I wonder what he means by that though, because because when he
• 23:30
  talks about 21, he always talks about working with Graham
• 23:33
  Harper. And I do wonder whether an awful
• 23:38
  lot of that memory is loaded onto his final story and just
• 23:40
  working with a director who was so visionary and the future of
• 23:43
  Doctor Who. I mean, I think you've got an
• 23:46
  improving Ron Jones in 21 and you've got Matthew Robinson as
• 23:50
  well. So there's a handful of pretty
• 23:52
  good directors there. But yeah, I I'll see your point.
• 23:55
  No, look, Robinson is the most dynamic director.
• 23:58
  He he he directs beautiful film sequences, but his studio stuff
• 24:02
  is pretty. You have both Daleks come
• 24:04
  bursting through that wall and then a zooms around and that
• 24:08
  person's face is all melted off. Yeah, that happens in that
• 24:12
  scene, but there's an awful lot of scenes of very static scenes
• 24:16
  of Davros flanked by two Daleks and and mid shot and nothing
• 24:19
  much happening visually. You've destroyed my love for
• 24:23
  these things. Why are you doing that?
• 24:24
  Also watch his Daleks in the studio.
• 24:27
  There's there's no life about them.
• 24:29
  They don't, you know, it's like they've forgotten that they can
• 24:31
  move the the plungers and the ice stalks.
• 24:33
  I watched Destiny, the Daleks the other week.
• 24:36
  You know James. That's a That's a really good
• 24:39
  piece of direction. It's really well directed, like
• 24:41
  he's never not shooting up in that bloody story.
• 24:44
  Those Daleks are are a tatty mess.
• 24:46
  But you. That's why he's never not
• 24:48
  shooting up, because he don't want to shoot on.
• 24:50
  Yeah. But you also forget, yeah, that
• 24:51
  they're tatty because they're constantly moving.
• 24:53
  Like that hasn't make sense of, you know, and I think you said
• 24:58
  in your commentary the studio stuff blends with the film
• 25:01
  stuff. Really.
• 25:02
  Well, it's the. Point where you can't almost
• 25:05
  tell where one begins and the other ends.
• 25:07
  Again, beautiful location like that.
• 25:08
  Those shots of the three lots of Daleks on different levels.
• 25:12
  I mean, it's really, really well done.
• 25:14
  Well, look, we could talk about all of the rest of Doctor Who
• 25:17
  until the cows come home. This has now officially been the
• 25:20
  longest preamble. Peter Davidson round.
• 25:23
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, strictly come out.
• 25:25
  So you've got nothing on this commentary.
• 25:26
  All right. This is the one that will run
• 25:28
  for six hours. Should we go into Episode 1?
• 25:31
  We've got so much to talk about in this.
• 25:33
  We've got Turlo coming in, haven't we?
• 25:35
  We've got the Black Guardian coming back.
• 25:38
  We've got, I mean, that music. I may have to do a bit of
• 25:41
  singing though, is that right? Let's I mean, I've I've things
• 25:44
  to say about Paddy Kelson, I. Think it's just glorious?
• 25:48
  Well, do you want to count? Listen.
• 25:50
  I shall do. OK, so we're going to watch
• 25:52
  Modern Undead episode one in three two got one play.
• 25:59
  Yes, I've got my new super duper sized screen for watching now, a
• 26:04
  new monitor. So that's right.
• 26:07
  I mean, to be honest with you, I should be looking at your pretty
• 26:09
  face more than the screen, but yeah, oh bloody hell, Pete
• 26:13
  Davidson looks massive on that screen.
• 26:14
  Actually, maybe I'll take it down a bit.
• 26:16
  He doesn't look much like Peter Davidson in.
• 26:18
  That in in it doesn't. Jennifer would like to say like
• 26:22
  Tristan in eight, we was wearing like a red jumper.
• 26:26
  Wasn't you've seen the pictures on that.
• 26:27
  Yeah, I think Jennifer would like to say he looks like he's
• 26:30
  been goosed. OK, that means he looked more
• 26:33
  like he's been cast as a Blue Peter presenter, but.
• 26:36
  I think it's more like he's realised he's married to Sandra
• 26:38
  Dickinson. Oh my God, this.
• 26:40
  Is a good location this this public school, isn't it?
• 26:43
  Yes, and I have been here. Now I've got some stories to
• 26:46
  tell you about this location because it.
• 26:49
  Was it a real school? I don't.
• 26:52
  It's not a school, I don't think, no, but in the
• 26:56
  surrounding grounds where they do the obelisk and all of that,
• 26:58
  that is all in the area. It's got some stunning
• 27:02
  countryside around there, like Mark and I got lost in ages and
• 27:06
  a huge sort of river that runs for real.
• 27:08
  It's a really beautiful place. So to Moffett's credit, then,
• 27:13
  that first shot does give you the geography of the place.
• 27:17
  It establishes the obelisk as being a certain distance from
• 27:21
  the school. It gives us, you know, it's,
• 27:23
  that's a lovely establishing shot at the school.
• 27:24
  James, excuse me, but those tight shorts on those boys,
• 27:28
  they're behind, it's very distracting, isn't it?
• 27:32
  You've never noticed before? I hadn't, but but thank you for
• 27:38
  for bringing it out. I sort of feel like there there
• 27:41
  are degrees of tightness and when and when Tegan runs into
• 27:45
  the scene with with her body almost dropping out of that boob
• 27:48
  tube, then then everything else has to be re contextualised,
• 27:51
  doesn't it? It's.
• 27:52
  Just like the start of an episode of Jeez and Worcester.
• 27:54
  The way they're all dressed up, it's.
• 27:55
  Got that and it's got it's got that nice kind of filmic look
• 27:59
  that is a nice. Kind.
• 28:00
  Oh, but the music now what do you think about that?
• 28:05
  Don't I? I?
• 28:06
  My view on the score of Modern Undead is that it's
• 28:13
  simultaneously Paddy Kingsland's best and worst score for Doctor
• 28:17
  Who. It's overpowering, isn't it?
• 28:20
  It. Is overpowering and this is this
• 28:22
  I I know, I know there are fans who heard this and their hearts
• 28:26
  sort of sack. I can understand.
• 28:29
  What has happened to the magic of Doctor Who?
• 28:31
  It is actually, you know, my mother used to say, you know,
• 28:35
  wasn't that many classic who's I watched with her, but she
• 28:37
  definitely watched this one. She was really baffled.
• 28:39
  The Turlo kept calling that boy hippo.
• 28:41
  She went, he's really slim. Like, have they cast the wrong
• 28:45
  actor? Like he's supposed to be a big,
• 28:47
  big lad, isn't he? I'm guessing that your your
• 28:50
  mother was never a public schoolboy.
• 28:52
  Well, she also had me as a child and used to tell me I was really
• 28:55
  slim as well. So you know you see the problem.
• 28:58
  I don't think that public school nicknames necessarily have any
• 29:01
  basis in facts at all. What was your nickname then?
• 29:03
  I didn't. Go to a public school so I
• 29:05
  didn't know well I was big ears or Larky.
• 29:09
  Big ears. You better give me some numbers.
• 29:12
  All right, I'll sort them out. Now.
• 29:15
  Are you watching the the new spanking new sort of CGI special
• 29:19
  effects where it's of Dark cloud or the old fashioned BBC Micro
• 29:22
  effects? Give me the BBC micro effects.
• 29:24
  This is like the kind of effect that would would happen in one
• 29:27
  of those BBC micro games that you the choose your own
• 29:31
  adventure ones. They weren't the ones where you
• 29:33
  would you were you were in a room.
• 29:35
  Do you go left or right and you'd type L for left enter?
• 29:40
  In another room, my my Mark does a good Turlo cosplay, you know,
• 29:46
  He says. And does he do more than undead
• 29:50
  or does he do planet of fire? Getting an insight.
• 29:53
  Depends on the mood really. But yeah, he does a bit of both.
• 29:56
  Good grief, who's that? I'll see in the distance there
• 29:59
  by that car. It looks a little bit like the
• 30:02
  Brigadier, but he doesn't have a mustache.
• 30:04
  Could it be? Is it?
• 30:07
  Oh, it's Ian. It's Ian Chesterton, isn't it?
• 30:09
  Yeah. How would that have worked?
• 30:10
  You think that would have worked?
• 30:11
  Oh, yeah. No, because then we wouldn't
• 30:14
  have had the wonderful suggestion that he and Barbara
• 30:17
  ended up together. He would have been some lonely
• 30:19
  old science teacher in this school.
• 30:25
  No, because they would have explained it with a line Barbara
• 30:28
  would have been having. I suppose it doesn't really work
• 30:31
  if Barbara's on the scene, does it?
• 30:33
  Not, not really, no, Once you. Sort of new adventure style,
• 30:38
  Barbara, you know, got depressed and and committed suicide.
• 30:44
  That would be the new adventures.
• 30:46
  Of blow their brains out, you know, after contracting with an
• 30:50
  STD or something like that. You know, that's the usual sort
• 30:52
  of a way. I really like the fact that they
• 30:55
  are doing something a little bit more complex with the Brigadier.
• 31:00
  I'm going to suggest, though I don't know, that Nick Courtney
• 31:05
  can always pull it off. What?
• 31:09
  Sense can he not pull it off? There's a scene later where he
• 31:14
  has to sort of go, you know, I've always been fitter to fit
• 31:17
  over and I just, I'm not convinced at all in that same
• 31:21
  that he's a man struggling with his emotions.
• 31:25
  I've never not been convinced. Maybe it's partly because you're
• 31:30
  so and this is one of the things we'll come back to when we talk
• 31:34
  about kind of what happens in the the last episode.
• 31:36
  But you're so kind of attached to the Brigadier by this stage.
• 31:41
  If you, if you, if you know who the Brigadier is, if you're
• 31:44
  invested in the, the, the long term kind of evolution of Doctor
• 31:50
  Who. I mean, what what what would be
• 31:51
  interesting is how this played with presumably quite a lot of
• 31:54
  the audience at the time who had not the first idea who the
• 31:57
  Brigadier was or was fathom so kind of well informed by this
• 32:01
  point that that was not considered a problem.
• 32:04
  Fandom, yes, the cash of audience, I mean this, we're
• 32:08
  still reaching sort of 67 million people, let's assume.
• 32:12
  Let's say it's, you know, someone has been watching it for
• 32:15
  two or three years. Let's say they've started
• 32:17
  watching at the age of 5. They're not going to know who
• 32:19
  the Brigadier is, are they? What do you think about these?
• 32:23
  Very jarring, you know. Oh Doctor, has the Mara truly
• 32:28
  gone? You know, the way they link
• 32:29
  every single story like that? Well, I like it.
• 32:36
  I, I, I like what it's attempting.
• 32:39
  I it's, again, sadly, there's not a good enough script editor
• 32:44
  to work, but the idea is a really good one.
• 32:48
  It's and it's, it's one of the best things about season 19.
• 32:51
  It's one of the things that makes that ties it together,
• 32:54
  that doesn't make sense of the the unevenness is that you get
• 32:57
  the sense, like with the early series, that they're on a single
• 33:01
  continuous adventure. And I like the attempt to give
• 33:05
  Tegan, who is not the most fleshed out of characters, some
• 33:09
  depth with this traumatic experience.
• 33:13
  The trouble is, is because of how it's scripted, it does feel
• 33:18
  like it's sort of shoehorned in sometimes.
• 33:20
  I'll give you an example, opening with Peter Davison going
• 33:24
  Daleks. I sometimes think those mutated
• 33:27
  misfits will terrorize me until the end of time.
• 33:30
  You know, at the start of Planet of Fire.
• 33:32
  It's like, OK, yes. I think it's all rather I think
• 33:36
  it's all better hand like the the lowest point is time flight
• 33:40
  episode 1. I shall miss him.
• 33:43
  Well, anyway, he wouldn't want us to grieve.
• 33:45
  Shall we go and do something nice?
• 33:46
  Wouldn't you want to go to the Great Exhibition rather than,
• 33:49
  say, Badrick? I know I would.
• 33:52
  Yeah. But I'll take that, James over
• 33:55
  fucking yeah. Watching Heaven Sent again.
• 33:57
  Watching a man grieve for 100 billion years.
• 34:01
  There's probably a happy medium, isn't there?
• 34:03
  I think so. Somewhere between 20 seconds and
• 34:05
  100 billion years. This, But now, good grief, so
• 34:08
  much happening that we haven't talked about this man, Angus
• 34:10
  McCabe, that just came in as the headmaster.
• 34:12
  And that's Barusa, isn't it? From the Deadly.
• 34:15
  Assassin, yes. Is that there must be some sort
• 34:19
  of head cannon theory that that it's actually Barusa come to do
• 34:23
  something with the guardians or? James, you know you'll you'll
• 34:26
  never amount to anything, you know, if you don't curb this
• 34:29
  vulgar facetiousness, OK? What do we what do we think
• 34:34
  about the costumes here? But do you know the the
• 34:38
  costumes, the boob tube? I I don't mind it.
• 34:42
  I think she looks quite cash. You know it is a problem when
• 34:45
  she's got a runabout. Poor Nisa.
• 34:47
  I mean she gets 1 druitful costume after another in this
• 34:49
  season I think. Egan's shorts are not
• 34:52
  flattering, are they? They're huge.
• 34:56
  A Yes, but then I don't know if we're the sort of audience to
• 34:59
  appreciate what they're trying to do.
• 35:02
  Yeah, I, my, my understanding is that these costumes were heavily
• 35:07
  influenced by the by by the requests of John Nathan Turner.
• 35:12
  So if we're in no place to be judged, he certainly was in no
• 35:17
  place to give advice about how to dress the females in the
• 35:20
  cast. Janet Fielding goes I was being
• 35:23
  told how to dress by a man who thought the Hawaiian shirt was
• 35:27
  the height of fashion. This was my life in the 80s.
• 35:33
  We just missed a wonderful musical cue where it goes.
• 35:37
  You ready when that spaceship turns up to collide with the
• 35:43
  TARDIS? It's a good kid.
• 35:45
  That's that's great. Great.
• 35:47
  Paddy Kingsland. Well, Patty Kingsland, who
• 35:49
  played with David Bowie. Because the direction just can't
• 35:52
  do it right. It just can't be dynamic in that
• 35:55
  TARDIS set. So Paddy Kingsland is going.
• 35:57
  I'm going to bring all the drama to this scene.
• 36:00
  These sets are good, aren't they?
• 36:01
  The BBC really old buildings, couldn't they?
• 36:04
  Absolutely, yeah. It's a shame actually, we
• 36:07
  ditched the scope, don't we, in the second-half of the story.
• 36:09
  But then I think the sets on the spaceship are quite nice as
• 36:12
  well. I'll.
• 36:13
  Tell you what I also find compelling is the Brigadier as a
• 36:16
  teacher. He's he.
• 36:18
  You could see him being stern but approachable.
• 36:21
  Not a good sort. The the sort of member of staff
• 36:24
  you'd you'd you'd open up to if you did have a problem.
• 36:30
  But he would push you as well, you know, he'd get the.
• 36:32
  Best out I mean to be a horrible games teacher but.
• 36:36
  Crawl across that pitch. Now, we'd say, what was I going
• 36:43
  to say? Oh, yeah.
• 36:43
  You remember when we read the Battlefield book?
• 36:45
  Yeah. Is this where Doris came when
• 36:48
  she came to say listen? Yeah.
• 36:51
  I think it is, isn't it? You know, when she when she
• 36:54
  asked him to marry her. Because it's such an anomaly.
• 36:58
  I mean, you can tell that it was not written originally for the
• 37:01
  Brigadier because it doesn't. No one ever in on television
• 37:06
  tries to square this weird, anomalous five years of his
• 37:10
  career where he was a teacher for a bit and also had a
• 37:13
  breakdown. Yeah, I, I went to IKEA fairly
• 37:18
  recently in Bryson. Yeah.
• 37:19
  It's a terrifying place. You know, once you're in, you
• 37:21
  can't get out. But also these.
• 37:24
  Thank you. Thank you all.
• 37:25
  The there was sort of an escalator that took me out, but
• 37:27
  they had these really fabulous glass tap tops, you know,
• 37:32
  absolutely stunning. Looked a bit like the crystal
• 37:34
  that Turlo holds in his hands. That is a cheap prop, isn't it?
• 37:41
  I'm not in IKEA necessarily. How much were they?
• 37:44
  I don't know, it was just a cheap gag, yeah.
• 37:50
  We should do it. We should do a podcast on
• 37:51
  cosplay and that could that could be one of your tips.
• 37:54
  You like Gear Tap as as part of your Turlo cosplay.
• 37:58
  Cosplay. We'll have to get Crystal in.
• 38:01
  You know that though, right? Are you still asking who that
• 38:03
  is? You could get one for Mark and
• 38:06
  he could put he could have it with his Turlo costume.
• 38:09
  Yeah, I can figure one or two things to do with it, actually.
• 38:12
  Let me tell you about this fabulous jazz club called The
• 38:15
  Crazy Cox in Soho. Have you been there?
• 38:19
  I have been to the crazy cocks. Yeah, Isn't it beautiful in
• 38:21
  there? Sort of delicious.
• 38:24
  Art Deco. Do you know where I'm going with
• 38:26
  this? Don't.
• 38:29
  You do you think the crazy cocks is modelled on modern undead?
• 38:32
  I absolutely do. Yes, it.
• 38:35
  Is a nice set and just ever so slightly contributes to the
• 38:42
  feeling of inertia. Explain that.
• 38:47
  Because if, if you have got a slightly event free episode 3
• 38:53
  and 4 and you set it in what essentially looks like a swanky
• 38:58
  London club, I, I, I feel like it's not going to be the most
• 39:02
  dramatic couple of episodes. I'm going to do you know what we
• 39:07
  get to those episodes. I think I'm going to come at
• 39:10
  you, you know, with the lack of incident, because I think quite
• 39:14
  a bit happens, especially in four.
• 39:16
  There's some really interesting complex stuff happening in four.
• 39:19
  I mean, I do love the way that those Russian dancers start
• 39:23
  gliding about the place like Daleks, you know, Mordrin.
• 39:26
  And his fellows stuff. But there's an awful lot of the
• 39:29
  Brigadier narrowly missing bumping into himself because
• 39:32
  that can't happen until the end of the episode.
• 39:35
  Because Mark looks like Turlo. Unfortunately, when we went to
• 39:38
  the obelisk and had all the pictures taken, I had to be
• 39:41
  hippo. Oh no, yeah, well, you didn't
• 39:44
  get to be the doctor and he he didn't kind of lift a rock to
• 39:47
  to. I've got a picture.
• 39:48
  Do you know what? I'll put it out with this where
• 39:49
  I lifted a rock above. Oh, Oh no, he's got a rock above
• 39:54
  my head. That's just wish fulfilment,
• 39:55
  that is. Look, should we talk about
• 39:57
  Turlo? We haven't touched.
• 39:58
  At all? Well, how do you where do you
• 40:00
  stand on Turlo? I think I like the idea very
• 40:04
  much. I don't really know that they
• 40:08
  know what to do with it beyond this story, because even in
• 40:11
  Enlightenment I'm not sure it works too well.
• 40:16
  And then I'm a bit pissed because you look at the rest of
• 40:19
  his run and he gets very little to do for the rest of his run.
• 40:24
  And I think Mark Stricken is a good actor and they wasted him
• 40:27
  quite a bit. I can agree with all of that.
• 40:30
  I I do think it works insofar as he gives such a committed
• 40:38
  performance on a level that is rare for this era of Doctor Who.
• 40:43
  I think to see some irregular bring such focus to a character.
• 40:55
  I, I just, I buy it actually, because, because it becomes not
• 41:00
  about, you know, I don't find myself questioning, well,
• 41:03
  wouldn't the doctor have realized by now or anything like
• 41:05
  that? I just, I'm so kind of drawn by
• 41:08
  Turlo's agony over the situation he finds himself in.
• 41:14
  And I don't disagree with any of that.
• 41:16
  What a pleasant way of disagreeing with each other
• 41:18
  here. But I do think there's a scene
• 41:20
  in Terminus, which I think is extraordinary.
• 41:23
  And it's only about a minute, where he's sitting on some
• 41:25
  stairs with Tegan and he says, do you ever think about killing
• 41:28
  somebody? She's like, Oh my God, what are
• 41:30
  you talking about? You are weird.
• 41:31
  And it's that's it. That's the only dialogue we
• 41:34
  really get with him examining this idea.
• 41:37
  And if they were doing it now, like, there would be whole
• 41:40
  stories about this, right? We really would be.
• 41:42
  But would it be any better? And terminus.
• 41:45
  Totally overwritten, wouldn't it?
• 41:47
  And there'd be something preachy.
• 41:48
  About what does he do in Terminus?
• 41:50
  He's stuck under the great in for free episodes.
• 41:52
  Yes, there's a lot of that, although it's that looks really
• 41:55
  good, I mean. Look at the run.
• 41:56
  Seriously, in in the Five Doctors, he's mostly stuck in
• 41:59
  the TARDIS. That's a.
• 42:00
  Very bad deal there. In The Awakening, he's lucked
• 42:03
  away with Andrew Vernie for a whole episode.
• 42:06
  Resurrection of Darkness just wanders around that spaceship.
• 42:09
  Although he he brings an intensity to, to that role that
• 42:12
  that you know, again, like. Are so over the top, I love
• 42:17
  them. I sort of feel like Mark
• 42:19
  Strickson makes makes me feel like he was given more to do
• 42:22
  than he actually was because he he commits so wholeheartedly.
• 42:27
  He gives you some of the most memorable scenes.
• 42:29
  It's still, it's bits in front here.
• 42:31
  So it was an infection, you know that stuff.
• 42:35
  Or do you remember when he's got the gun in Warriors and a team
• 42:38
  he comes running in and goes where is?
• 42:41
  It. Jesus.
• 42:42
  Oh, that's quite nice. Oh, you could just.
• 42:46
  Did you see that? Then you could see the wire
• 42:48
  going up his arms. He's done such a good job of
• 42:50
  concealing it though, and apparently that was a car
• 42:52
  battery and and absolutely scolding to the touch.
• 42:59
  James, can I ask you that? You know, you've done plenty of
• 43:02
  work on the stage. You know you've shows and score
• 43:06
  things even in your sort of wildest diseased moments.
• 43:10
  Did you ever see a costume as mad as that bird sitting on
• 43:14
  Valentine doll's head? I've seen costumes that mad on
• 43:18
  pantomime posters where I've gone Thank God that's not the
• 43:22
  pantomime I. Mean.
• 43:26
  It's a bit much, isn't it? Much and and it's another it's
• 43:31
  it's it's another very much kind of of this era decision, isn't
• 43:36
  it? It's about Bran.
• 43:38
  It's always somehow comes down to Bran.
• 43:40
  Like like the costumes, right? Like the?
• 43:42
  Uniforms. Yeah.
• 43:44
  So how are we going to show that they're guardians?
• 43:46
  Birds. It's probably a John Nathan
• 43:49
  Turner idea. Or or or or a crazy designer who
• 43:52
  designed this. You've got 2 astonishing actors
• 43:56
  in Valentine Dial and Cyril Lucum and you put those birds on
• 44:00
  their heads. They just look ridiculous.
• 44:03
  And it's such a shame because when you think about just how
• 44:07
  cool so like I'm looked in the Rebus operation, I'm.
• 44:11
  Not sure the Brigadier should be fat shaming his students there.
• 44:14
  Did you say that? Not only would you anyway, not
• 44:17
  only would your body be less disgusting, you know.
• 44:20
  Well, no that. But that is the cut that I'm
• 44:22
  afraid. That's the sort of thing
• 44:23
  teachers used to say to me when I was at school.
• 44:25
  So, James, it's slimmer than me now, All right?
• 44:30
  Oh boy. Now, OK, I, I, I do genuinely.
• 44:36
  And it's always, when you cut back to that TARDIS set, the
• 44:40
  lighting in there, it's so flat, isn't it?
• 44:42
  And I know we love that I said we love that.
• 44:45
  It's console, it's nostalgic. Yes, yes, yes.
• 44:49
  Turn that brain off for a second.
• 44:50
  That is a really hard to say to get any atmosphere out of.
• 44:57
  I mean, compare it to this fabulous stairs.
• 45:01
  Why can't the TARDIS look like this?
• 45:03
  I know there's something really lovely about the way that line
• 45:10
  is slipped in where the Brigadier says objects don't
• 45:13
  just dematerialize and it's the. First know about the TARDIS.
• 45:18
  Exactly. It's the first hint that we we
• 45:20
  get that there's something not quite right about this this
• 45:23
  version of the Brigadier. Oh, I like the fact that this
• 45:25
  console, the sort of game that they can play.
• 45:28
  Yeah, we never get to see it because let's be honest, it
• 45:32
  would look absolutely dreadful. It'd be like that game the
• 45:34
  Bulgarians play in terror of the Vervoids, so they just flash a
• 45:37
  light in Peter Davidson's face to show it would be the best
• 45:40
  arcade game ever. Do you think, I mean, do you
• 45:44
  think the design is a little bit like the direction?
• 45:49
  Well, I think the design is quite ostentatious.
• 45:52
  I wouldn't say that about the direction.
• 45:53
  It's ostentatious. But it's, it's a little bit
• 45:56
  gaudy. If you were to put a chat show
• 45:58
  on that set, it would it would not look out of place, would it?
• 46:04
  Not be the host please. I want to come down that
• 46:07
  staircase. Feathers everywhere.
• 46:11
  I'd like to. In fact, I'd watch a Morgan
• 46:13
  Undead chat show. Hosted by David Collins.
• 46:17
  Yeah, welcome to Morgan Undead. What's that?
• 46:22
  Well, that's sort of my woven. And who are you?
• 46:25
  Who's you? Who are you interviewing today
• 46:26
  then? Well, I'll be interviewing the
• 46:31
  the Gravis tractator. The one with no nose.
• 46:35
  No, no, the one with the nose. The one.
• 46:36
  With the nose, right? How does he smell?
• 46:39
  Terrible. Oh dear.
• 46:41
  We can ask you. We could get something out of
• 46:43
  this, I reckon. Oh God.
• 46:45
  Look Tolo's in the TARDIS already.
• 46:47
  Is he? That was quick work.
• 46:49
  Very quickly, didn't it? Yeah.
• 46:51
  Oh, I think Turlo is the sort of slippery youth.
• 46:57
  It's Adric done well with a good.
• 46:59
  Actor. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 47:00
  And the. And where he runs in and Turlo's
• 47:02
  that this is great, isn't it Lovely first meeting.
• 47:05
  And of course, and of course, unlike Matthew Waterhouse, Mark
• 47:10
  Strickson understands precision. So he can do a a shot like that
• 47:13
  where they just move their heads up at exactly the same time.
• 47:18
  I mean, I will say we're leading up to that first cliffhanger now
• 47:23
  and there's some lovely percussive music.
• 47:25
  I think he's playing the drums on all sorts at the end of this
• 47:29
  as it's sort of building up now. Boy, do it now.
• 47:32
  And he picks up the rock. James.
• 47:34
  The first time I saw this, I was so gripped.
• 47:37
  I was desperate to see the next episode.
• 47:39
  Gripping stuff, do. You know, I went to a garden
• 47:42
  centre recently and that's a marvellous Wicker furniture, you
• 47:45
  know, a bit like the furniture that Tikka and Nisa just put in
• 47:49
  there. What's?
• 47:50
  Going on with that Wicker chair. Well, it's sort of Wicker
• 47:53
  everywhere, isn't it? You remember the Five Doctors
• 47:55
  when they have that party? They do, they have a Wicker
• 47:57
  party. Don't you?
• 47:58
  Oh, I didn't do. Pineapple.
• 48:00
  Tikka and misses room that's full of Wicker, isn't it?
• 48:02
  Wicker? Yeah.
• 48:03
  You think JMT had a deal with somebody?
• 48:07
  Yeah, the TARDIS rooms are are an odd thing.
• 48:12
  Oh, in the name of all that is evil, says the Black Guardian.
• 48:20
  I mean, because for once, I mean, that actually does.
• 48:22
  It's a moment of jeopardy. I'd really, I'm not that keen on
• 48:25
  false jeopardy cliffhangers anymore if I want to as I get
• 48:27
  older. When I was younger, I loved
• 48:28
  them. You were the cliffhanger
• 48:29
  already. Yeah.
• 48:31
  Am I ahead of you then? Yeah, I mean, he's just, they've
• 48:34
  just emerged from the TARDIS. He's got his toolbox.
• 48:37
  I'm about two minutes ahead of you.
• 48:39
  Have you skipped a bit or have I just ended up watching a?
• 48:42
  Are you on the iPlayer I'm on? The iPlayer.
• 48:45
  Oh, I'll pause here at the end of the episode and let you catch
• 48:47
  up. All right.
• 48:49
  Oh, that's it. The episode's for.
• 48:51
  Me. I wonder what but you missed?
• 48:54
  I don't know. But I mean, well, you'll see it
• 48:57
  in a minute. Then that enormous bloody Rocky
• 49:00
  picks up. That really does look like it'll
• 49:01
  do a bit of damage. I used to love that toolbox.
• 49:06
  That was the kind of thing like the more tools the doctor had
• 49:09
  the better in mind. Tiny pre adolescent mind and
• 49:13
  now. I'd still love it a little.
• 49:16
  Bit I hate the way the Sonic screwdriver has become such a
• 49:20
  pointless WAVY. Yeah.
• 49:21
  But those aren't tools, that's just a catch all tool for any
• 49:24
  plot contrivance isn't. It.
• 49:28
  I hate it. Oh, actually I'm sort of setting
• 49:29
  the credits now so we can see. You did the sense.
• 49:32
  He's creeping out. It is a big rock, you're right,
• 49:34
  And it looks really heavy. And that's because Mark
• 49:36
  Strickson knows how to act a heavy rock, right?
• 49:40
  Don Babbage, our costume designer.
• 49:42
  Amy Roberts, Amy Bravo. Except for the birds.
• 49:48
  The birds. It's quite quite a big error
• 49:50
  though, isn't it? I don't recognise that name,
• 49:52
  Designer Stephen Scott. No, no, no.
• 50:00
  But I've got to say, that is a packed first episode, isn't it?
• 50:03
  Loads happens and we haven't even gone into a different time
• 50:06
  zone yet. No, I mean that's, that's all in
• 50:10
  episode 2, isn't it? So.
• 50:11
  Think about all the stuff that that got set up there.
• 50:14
  Well, you ask me what I think about, what do you think about
• 50:17
  the pact with the Black Guardian?
• 50:19
  Did this out the episode with a little discussion on that.
• 50:24
  It doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny really, does it?
• 50:26
  If the Black Guardian wants the Doctor dead and has found him,
• 50:29
  why not just kill him or trick him?
• 50:33
  Or two? What?
• 50:35
  What part of the his plan makes any kind of sense?
• 50:39
  Well, I mean to what the Black Guardians planned.
• 50:43
  Yeah. Well, yeah, if he was all
• 50:45
  powerful, I would imagine there are many 1,000,000 exquisite
• 50:48
  ways he could probably bump off the doctor.
• 50:51
  It's the sort of thing we would expect from Ainley's master.
• 50:55
  Yeah. Convoluted.
• 50:56
  Pointless. I'll I know I'll I'll trick a
• 50:58
  schoolboy into killing the doctor.
• 51:00
  That will work. So I think then it comes down
• 51:03
  entirely to Mark Strixon to pull off the fact that he's been
• 51:06
  hoodwinked, and I think he does do that.
• 51:09
  Oh yeah, yeah. So that's was my point really,
• 51:11
  is that I don't think it does make sense.
• 51:13
  And I think it's I think it's fine for three stories, though
• 51:18
  if they tried to extend it for any longer it it would have
• 51:22
  started to strain credulity. But because Strixon is so good
• 51:27
  at it, and because it's all coming to a a climax and
• 51:30
  enlightenment anyway. I really like that as well.
• 51:33
  I like the three stories linked for E Space.
• 51:35
  I like the three stories linked across with the Master from
• 51:40
  Keeper Track and Fruit to Castro Valva.
• 51:42
  I like the three stories linked here.
• 51:44
  It just feels like there's a little bit, there's sort of like
• 51:47
  an anchor in those seasons. There's something a bit more.
• 51:50
  Substantial I think this is. I think this three works better
• 51:53
  than that other 3. If it didn't have turbulence in
• 51:57
  the middle, maybe. You say that, but do you not
• 52:01
  think that tone like a good trilogy ought to do 3 different
• 52:05
  things like the classic, the classic triptych was I mean the
• 52:11
  classic triptych is the the the first act is hell, the second is
• 52:15
  heaven, the 3rd is a comedy. That's, you know, that's
• 52:19
  Pacini's Tritico, where you've got.
• 52:21
  Which one's the comedy here then?
• 52:24
  I mean, enlightenment. Really hilarious.
• 52:30
  Isn't Tegan mine raped at one point?
• 52:33
  I mean there's a dodgy things going on in that, I mean.
• 52:36
  Some jolly dancing in it, hasn't it?
• 52:38
  What's so weird is when you look at that E space three, I mean,
• 52:41
  they're all the same story, aren't they?
• 52:42
  A crash spaceship and the civilizations that have come
• 52:46
  from them it's just because they are so stylistically different
• 52:50
  they feel like completely different stories about location
• 52:53
  working full circle like we've said there's a gothic horror of
• 52:57
  state of decay and then that that pristine white void in
• 53:00
  warriors gate that they just feel really different despite
• 53:03
  the. Fact that I mean it's, it's
• 53:04
  almost kind of style over substance.
• 53:07
  You could, yes, you could say that, but then I think Mordor
• 53:11
  undead and you could say this, that there is style and
• 53:16
  substance here. Oh.
• 53:17
  There's definitely. Substance, but I think the style
• 53:20
  comes from, let's see if I can remember the name Steven Scott
• 53:24
  from Amy Roberts from Paddy Kingsland.
• 53:28
  Not so much from PM off here, but let let's take a look at
• 53:33
  more of the direction. I'm willing to be convinced.
• 53:36
  Are you enjoying it so far? Loving it.
• 53:39
  I I think it's a a really classy first episode, actually really
• 53:44
  nicely paced. And there's.
• 53:45
  Nothing. We have seen nothing so far
• 53:47
  where I've gone that, that is underwhelming direction.
• 53:51
  I know you've pointed out kind of the TARDIS set looks very
• 53:54
  flat and it's a bit overlit, but no one.
• 53:56
  Can shoot in the TARDIS like God bless Fiona, come in in
• 54:00
  enlightenment. She turned the lights down and
• 54:02
  went right. Let's have some atmosphere in
• 54:04
  here.