Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 488: The Wyoming Corner Crossing Lawyer Finally Speaks Out

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Ep. 488: The Wyoming Corner Crossing Lawyer Finally Speaks Out · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware listeningcast. You can't
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,
• 0:25
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• 0:28
  Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T L
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I T E dot com. You were the man who
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: just hunts birds now except let's let's it's Tomagwaen went
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: on a pheasant last year. Tom mcgwaan has. It's like
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: I appreciate with Tom mcgwaan.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: He's got He wrote a real good essay on mule
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: deer hunting along.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was a good that's good.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: But like when I get real serious about walking for roosters,
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: especially like late season public land roosters, you tell me
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: who's the bigger hunter?
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: A dude who.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Walks from their electric vehicle to a tree stand to
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: shoot a white tail?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Listen, I'm machine.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: This is an argument worth having.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: This machine is on. Phil's machine is on. I'm okay.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Phil's machine is on. You miss something, but I'm try
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: to explain where we're at on this, and then we're
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna just to titillate, just to titillate. We're
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: joined by the most important lawyer in America right now,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Ryan samarand Samarad.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: How do you like to say that Samarad?
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Samarad most important?
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: Just like it's spelled. Some people think, which always makes
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: you feel good.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I was seeing it in in there. I don't know why.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I've looked at a thousand times. Some people think it's like, oh,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: the most important lawyer in America right now must be uh,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: He's not even a lawyer anymore.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, scratch him. Most important lawyer in America right now
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: is the lawyer that's defending No, no, no, it'd be
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: like the lawyer that's defending President Trump in the in
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: the in the in the Georgia election. I don't know.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying just pulling straws here. Some people might
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: think that, right, they might think, whatever lawyer is going
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: to litigate the next election in four and a half years,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: But there's no way that's going to be clear. There's
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: no way. Everybody's just gonna go like yeah, figures don't.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Why but no, it's this guy right here, right right
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: in our studios, the most important lawyer in America. Why
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: stay tuned back to what I said to what said, Well,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I wasn't dogging on Okay, we're having a conversation about
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: when public figures. When public figures in the conservation space,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: public figures and managed wildlife management will want to be
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: able to have their sort of hunting bonafides and then
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: leverage those to attack hunting. You will find that they
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: often are I'm sorry, they often are bird hunters because
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: they feel that they can do that right that they're
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: they're hoping like, well, I hope this will buy me
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: some street cred I can identify as. But then I
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: will still be able to go to the cocktail parties
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: that I'd like to go to because I'm not that bloody.
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, because I don't chase lions with hounds.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's like, it's not dogging on it. I'm
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: not dogging. I'm just saying I've made a comment like
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: beware the bird hunter. I didn't mean beware bird hunters.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Bird huners. Great. He also clarified except Tom McGain because
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Tom mcgwaen was a big game hunter and eventually became
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: a bird hunter. And when Yanni and I interviewed him
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: years ago on this show, Tom mcgwen, he said, you know,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: of speaking of all hunting and he's a hunter. He
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: said something to the effect of, you know, you are
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: trying to kill things that want to stay alive. Can't
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: ignore that, right, And well, no, he wasn't even he
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: wasn't like acting. He was warning us out about his
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: own his own self. And you're saying, are we gonna
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: ignore are we honestly going to ignore this? Or can
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: we talk about this for a minute, you know, And
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: he's a novelist, he's supposed to he can't ignore. They're
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: not allowed to ignore stuff. They have to talk about stuff.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: That's all I was saying. I wasn't hacking on bird
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: hunters that I was. It was just that there's another
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: there's I could just name a handful of them.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: Oh, the super annoying wolf grizzly guy.
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: No, my goodness, no, no.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: No, I'm right.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: And and I think this is where I very much
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: agree with you, like these people that it is very
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: very common, like they do some fly angling and they
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: own a breed of dog that is generally considered a
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: bird dog that I believe just like fits the profile
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: versus whisper.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I mean, what is it rhyme with?
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: There's a lot whisper.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: What it rhymes with?
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: Most of them are some dainty pointer or possibly a
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: small flusher.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: But why can't we say it a red bone? Why
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: can't we say the dog?
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: Why can't we say the dogs?
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Because he doesn't want people to feel attacked, No, I don't, Well,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: there's not it's not an attack on the dog.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: It's just that these people own that kind of dog.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Well, but there's several breeds though, like we could go
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: through all the red I'm just saying that it's gonna
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: be considered a bird dog, but that dog would not
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: be considered a bird dog when compared to actual bird dogs,
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: because it's not it's being used very casually, not very seriously.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: So that bird dog is a metaphor for that kind
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: of hunter. Yeah, well, I'm joking, but there's a variety
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: of breeds. I've taken this beatn the table you.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: And then this is where the fun part started for
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: the audience, and I said, just you know, keep in
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: mind late season rooster hunting, when I'm getting real serious
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: about birds with the dog. If you compare what I'm
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: doing compared to let's call them a hardcore, badass tree
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: stand whitetail hunter.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think it is box blind.
• 6:56
  Speaker 5: It is whitetail week cow.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: It is not by the time this place that you know,
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: most circles would be like, well, this person is obviously
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: working a little harder.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Yep, But I'm not. Again, I'm not talking about the
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: discipline or practice of I'm talking about the politics of Yes,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: why did well? No, because this is a little bit different,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: This is a little bit contradict. No, that's a bird.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still true, but historically a
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: presidential candidate would want to establish their hunting bona fides.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: I believe this is true. I believe Hillary Clinton even
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: linked herself to past hunters.
• 7:38
  Speaker 6: She she famously told stories about.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Going duck hunting growing up. John Kerry, what did he do?
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Remember him? Yep? John Kerry went on a goose hunt,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: didn't get one, and he made a very strange He
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: made a very he made a very strange He did
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: a strange move that that backfired. He had a guy
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: carry his shotgun. So someone was sort of like, probably
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: not best right to have a ton of photos of
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: him with the shotgun, but instead you have a ton
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: of photos of him looking like a country dandy.
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a typical way with carried his.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Gun like as though it's like his caddy. And so
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: then it became lampooned. But he still felt the need
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: to establish his bona fides. Now you take this and
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: look at where this. Mitt Romney had the same situation.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Mitt Romney's like, oh, yeah, hunt, someone says, funny, you're
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: not in the database of people who had so then
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: he had to Then he had to be like and
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: he's like, wow, I hunted varmits.
• 8:59
  Speaker 6: I believe he's I believe you said I hunted varmints
• 9:02
  Speaker 6: and such.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: And then you're like, yeah, I wish I had just
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: never even brought this. I wish I'd never even brought
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: this up.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the aids are scrambling. Oh boy, no, I think
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: there's a There does exist a compilation of political figure
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: photo ops, like awkward gun handling photo ops out there,
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: and also like fishing, awkward fishing.
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: You know it exists.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: But the dude not a quick thing before we get
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: to the world's most important lawyer in the moment, some
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: keeping it, you.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Know, yeating, exactly, well done.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I want to get them toea cocky, most important lawyer
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: in the moment for the last collection of moments. How
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: many years?
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: About two? Okay, well I've been a lawyer for seven,
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: but this case.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: About Yeah, we're gonna get to that heavy duty. It's
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: good that you're here.
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, can you just quick finish this thought up? The
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: dude that the governor of Colorado is married to he's
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: very outspoken animal rights. Actually yes, and there's.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, whatever, call it rumors, but there's definitely like
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: people that say, well, president's president.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Put it this way. A lot of people are saying a.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Lot of people are saying that that's dictating policy towards
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: hunting in Colorado.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's no argument that shows uh an
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: administration doesn't sway the state Fishing Game Office, sure like
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: in most most states that I'm aware of.
• 10:51
  Speaker 7: But his home is not an elected official. Well yeah,
• 10:54
  Speaker 7: but I mean I'm just saying, you know, pillow talk right, Yeah, true.
• 11:02
  Speaker 7: You know, when we do our live show in Denver,
• 11:04
  Speaker 7: Yanni invite Polish.
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: Do we invite him?
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, But I think that.
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: That talk about this a little bit.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: I think that that live show should mostly be focused
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: on this issue. I love it. You know.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: There are people, including myself to some degree, were kind
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: of like when Polis was was running, like when he
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: was a state representative. He was our state representative round
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Bail for a while, and he was very like pro
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: public lands, did a lot to establish like he was
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: doing stuff up at Camp Halee, doing stuff for like
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: getting wilderness areas designated.
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: Things you liked, things.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I liked, right, But the hunting thing was like not
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: even part of the part of the deal.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: So he was he was a good public lands advocate,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: was not a hunting advocate.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it wasn't like the radar because back then
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Hick and Looper wasn't anti hunting, like at least in
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: any perceivable way.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: I mean you hunted with him, I think no, I
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: would know he definitely wasn't.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Oh he was at the one shot the way back
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: when he.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Definitely I mean, at great political risk to himself, he
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: went to the one shot, meaning he went to the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: one shot in Wyhoming and everyone he knows everyone in
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the room hates him, and he knows that everyone back homes,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: everyone in the room hates him for his gun policy,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: everyone back home hates him. That he's hunting antelope, and
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: he was having the best time of anybody there. I said,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: I did it with him. He's a cloud nine the
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: whole time people are coming saying awful stuff to him.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: He's just having the time. I was like, this guy's
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: got balls, man.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Polish was the first Colorado governor that bailed
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: out of that one shot.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: No. I couldn't believe, man, I couldn't believe the hick
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: and looper, Like, how how good of a time he
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: was having in a situation that anybody else has been, Like,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: there's no way in the world, dude, I'm gonna have
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: my gun record and go to Wyoming with a bunch
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: of gun people and then have to come back home
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: and everybody bitching me from the other side that I
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: went down there with all them gun people.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: Hey, man, that's a you know, he's able to do both.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: That's a good politician, I guess, yeah.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: You know, because he came from the bar business. One
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: thing you learn in the bar business is you learn
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: how to sit in a hostile environment.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: That's the truth. That's amazing.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: You learn how to be around people that don't think
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: what you think. Yep. Also, the twenty twenty four calendar
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: is out, so if you if you purchased and loved
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: fucked up old deer stands, fucked up old Taxidermy, we're
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: taking a break from that run and it's called the
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Dirty dozen this year, but we'll get back.
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: To the old basically like fucked up old TV personality
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: hunting TV.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: And then in twenty twenty five. I'm still thinking fucked
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: up old fish cleaning stations, but that's like heard, I
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: like that one. But fucked up dirtish and boats is
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: good to the dirtiest, nastiest fish cleaning.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Stay sucked up old deer camps.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I know some fish I've talked with tigraphers on They're like,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: it's hard to capture a dirty fish clean and.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: Stay the beauty of a dirty fish.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: It's hard to like because you either got to focus
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: in on the dirty, slimy parts or you stand back.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: It's just hard to capture. If you talk to a
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: photographer about it, it might need to be a video.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: A calendar that is full of videos. That's hard because
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: there's different like layers of scale crime. Yeah, when you
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: reach on a dilapidated structure.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Have seth provide a good example of the cleaning station
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: at the fish shack and say make a photo like this.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: I don't want that. I don't want to. I don't
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: want to.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I don't want to name the one. I can't name
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: the one that's in my mind right now because it
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: would be in politics to name the one's on my
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: mind right now, but it'd have to be scratch and sniff.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: It's a scratch and sniff calendar.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Were those ones with the grinder in the middle right,
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: like in the July You go, oh yeah, so you're
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: hitting the face and the eyeballs, and.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Then someone throws a fifteen pound channel cat carcass in
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: there and just the grinder locks up and everything.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: This grinder, Oh they're a genius, but they don't accept
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: big calfish head, so it pull it grinds everything.
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: This is a public Oh you throw a bluegill in there.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: It doesn't even change tune.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: Oh I threw in.
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: Where do they go they use it for.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Goes into the septic I'm guessing goes into the municipal.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: There's a chum pipe out and every lag.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean grinds it. Dude's cool, No, it's genius.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: There's one.
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: The first one I ran into was in my home
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: state of Michigan, not while I lived there, but when
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: I visited there recently.
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: But it's been that thing has been around a while.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: They got them all over Montana, Like all the way
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: down the Missouri.
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: Must not be cleaning that many fish.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: For Walleye folks, Like, yeah, they're they got.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: A hose my kids, that thing seeing all the fish
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: coming in throwing those things in that ground.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: I had a very diplomatic situation one night. This is
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: a very quick story, but we were at this deal.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: We went out fishing with this guy. It was very serious. Walleyee.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: We get up to the fish cleaning station. There's two
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: guides there. You can tell there. You can just tell
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: at what stage of their day they're in stage home
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: and both right, it's like it's late. It was a
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: really cold, windy day out of the Missouri out in
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: South Dakota. And I watch our guy who's just like
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: this aggressive old football player type. Have no, he doesn't
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: even acknowledge that these other people exist at the cleaning station,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: and so when he's grabbing the hose and hosing stuff off,
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: he's just I mean, and you can see the temperature
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: is rising.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Yea.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: So I'm like backpedaling like a free safety Steve and
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: I get to the boat and I like dig out
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: or pack of beer haul ass to the fish cleaning station. Like, hey, guys,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: look like he had a long day, Dima. You just
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: see like the thermometer was like right at the very
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: top and she just started coming down.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: It's just like, oh my god, We're gonna do one
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: news item, and this is this is one of those ones.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: This is a story that never goes away. It just
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: moves generally from island. This is a story that moves
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: from island to island around America, probably globally. Catalina Island
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: mule deer versus native plants and grasses. A plan to
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: use helicopter mounted sharpshooters to kill nearly two thousand invasive
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: mule deers roaming the mountains of Santa Catalina Island has
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: ignited a storm of protests among residents of the popular
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: resort destination and prompt the calls for state wildlife officials
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: to block the hunts. Now I've been out there because
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I went out there because they have a.
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: Called a hunt.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: They have a hunt.
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: No I know, but they should.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know why they're calling that a hunt. Yeah, eradication, Okay,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: So reason to say this just jumps from island to
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: island around the country. Islands being what they are, there's
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: a whole discipline if you want to if listeners want
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: to get real serious about this, there's a whole discipline
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: called island biogeography. Islands being what they are, oftentimes didn't
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: get large. You know, they don't have large mammals on them.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Birds find them, right, and then oftentimes little stuff finds them.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: But a lot of times islands don't have full suites
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: of large mammals, and people being people, they get out
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: to an island, they're like, damn, this place to be
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: a lot better with a bunch of X, and they
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: turn it loose. And then what they don't turn loose
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: is coyotes and wolves and lions, and pretty soon you have,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: you know, insane populations of ungulates, meaning what could be
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: wild sheep could be omnivores like pigs. What am I missing?
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Axes deer well elk.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: The funny thing is is I had a buddy in
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: college that was a wildlife and fishery science major. His
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: first job out of college was on Catalina Island eradicating
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: goats and pigs, and like they weren't complaining about that
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: back now, I understand, but he killed so many of
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: those things. He said, like after a couple of years,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: he was just like he he was a hunter, and
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: he was just like overwhelmed by the mind.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the dirtiest deed I've ever heard of when you're
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: doing goat control on islands. You know about the goot,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: the Judas goat, I've heard. Yeah, Man, those those guys,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: those sharpshooter dudes. They'll take a goat right and put
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: a little track and collar on him and let them
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: go go find your bodies. And you wait awhile, and
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: you just know that goat's gonna find the other goats.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: You know what it is? They stole that idea from
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Red Dawn. Do you remember that kid's a great and
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Red Dawn. That kid went into town. He wasn't supposed
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: to go into town, and the ruskies caught him and
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: they made him swallow that tracking device, and then the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Ruskies came for him and they killed all the rooskies,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: and then they had they got that tracking device, and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: he's like trying to figure out who in the tracking
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: device leads him right to his third buddy and he
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: shoots them. That's where they got that idea for the
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Judas go good meal deer hout and see in that
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: movie too. Oh yeah, brings it right back around to
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: what I was talking about. This moves around all the time.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: So you have islands, and islands have just the same
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: bio island biogeography that perhaps keeps you know, grazers off
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: allows islands to develop unique suites of vegetation, right, sometimes
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: unique suites of vegetation that don't exist anywhere else on
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the planet. But then you move grazers out there, and grazers,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: you know, graysed down native vegetations. They create a disturbed ecosystem.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: You still have people running around, they're introducing non native
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: weeds intentionally accidentally, they're planning ornamentals, whatever. And then pretty
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: soon you have this island that was full of endemic species,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: meaning things found nowhere else or communities found nowhere else.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: And then it kind of looks a lot like Mainland,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: meaning you know you got cheat grass and melder whatever
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: the hell. Just you see this all the time. So
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: they're always debating this out like in the in Hawaii.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a big thing in Maui, for instance,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: tons of axes deer, a lot of people hunt them
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: in love access deer.
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: A lot of.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: People are like, they don't belong here, they're brought by people.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: They're destroying endemic species. And it's just just this argument
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: that floats around and never goes away. And it's a
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: tricky one for me because I'm always you know, like anybody,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I like to see, you know, lots of animals to
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: go hunting for, and and like anyone I like to
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: you know, I like to preserve the planet's biodiversity. So
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Catalina Island has mule deer, and they have American buffalo
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: or bison. They have those because of they filmed the
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: movie out there and brought them out there, and they're
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: still out there running around, you know, free ranging, semi wild.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: But apparently now they're gonna they're they're they're fixing to
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: eliminate the mule deer right now. They are allowing uh,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: right now, they're allowing two hundred of these deer to
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: get one hundred a year, so you can get permits
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: and hunt two hundred deer a year. But they're looking
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: just to put the kibosh on the whole thing and
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: use helicopters to kill all the year. And some people
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: ain't happy.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: They make the hunt very complicated.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: They do do know anything about it.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: I've looked into you know that.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that it existed.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: I looked into it well because I had this dream
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: of participating in the hunt while lobster season was in
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: was happening, right, so you could go hunt mule deer
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: and then go dive for lobsters at night. Sounds pretty awesome.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Camp on a beach. I mean you're getting the picture right,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, lovely, yeah's island island oasis. But the yeah,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: the there's they heavily incentivize, like the use of outfitters
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: on the island. It was just like overly complicated to
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: get through just to get the information that you want
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: to go out there and hunt other toads out there.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I have seen.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: Some nice sheds on people's shelves and stuff out there,
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: but I'm not sure if they're growing anything like real big.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it's pretty darn incesty out there, got it. Yeah,
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: And I know there's also just you know, there's not
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: an over abundance of fresh water on the island it.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is one of those ones. If I
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: live there, I'd be passed it is. It's a thorny one.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: So come up with your own decisions about that.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Well, the bison are a tourist trap, and that's.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Why I went there when I was working on my
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Buffalo book. I went, oh, that's wild.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean the the deer people can they
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: are more available for people to go out and hunt.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Harvard can eat. It's no brainer to me. You can
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: have your your five bison out there and have your
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: Jurassic Park experience and and let people actually go hunt
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: the meal deer.
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and maybe just increase the tags so that so
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: that the native flora can actually handle the pressure.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: That's why is that not part of the conversation. If
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: you have two thousand and you're killing ten percent a year,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: why why not for a while kill twenty percent a
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: year or fifty yeah, or fifty and then and then
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: and then see what the I don't see what the
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: impact is. Well, they're not killing enough. That's solvable. At
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: what point get one? Here's the guy that here's the
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: guy that wants to get one.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: It is California, Like, do they really want to.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Use hunting to solve their problem?
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: You know, it's.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: Anecdotal, but there used to be. I was told from
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: a resident of Catalina that it used to be you
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: could only kill a buck if you killed a doe
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: or possibly two doughs.
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: At one point a buck.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one hundred dog duran's perking up a bug?
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Is that all?
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Which I think is probably a lot for I mean,
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: that thing is a desert rock out there.
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so it seems like one hundred and fifty bison
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: could be eating as much as those two thousand mule deer.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an easy math to do.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: All right. Ryan Samarat the corner the Corner Crossing lawyer,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: the lawyer who is representing the Wyoming corner crossers that
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: have just been in the news and we've spent endless
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: amounts of time on this. We had the four we
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: had how many guys from from Missouri came out? We
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: had two, We had some of the corner crossers from
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Missouri come out. They've been on the show. We've had
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: analysts and other lawyers on the show to talk about this.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But right now we're gonna hear updates, insight, narratives, and
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: explanations from the actual attorney who's in there duking it
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: out in the courtrooms. Good to be here now, I'm
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: so sick of explaining it. You explain it for a minute,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: do a high level do the high level explanation. We'll
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: introduce yourself to that.
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So my name is Ryan Summerad. I'm an attorney
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: living Casper.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Where were you born.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: I'm born in upstate New York, Chenectady. Uh. And in
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: light of your long conversation about the politics of non
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: hunters and visuals, I'll tell you I don't hunt at all.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: You don't hunt at all, not at.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: All, So just see you.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, number of did no background research?
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably do.
• 27:52
  Speaker 6: You could probably get some good invites to some hunting
• 27:54
  Speaker 6: camps after this whole mess.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you got a lot of That was my question.
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: Have you had opportunity your dec to hunt, like, have
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: you dabbled or you just have never not?
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: Didn't grow up with it? Mom and dad weren't part
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: of that family, wasn't part of my uncle.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: I think I'm a little bit go to law school
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: Ohio States.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: So how'd you wind up in it's the yeah you're
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: supposed to say the thing? Uh, so came about a girl.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: My wife's born raising Casper. You meet her at Ohio State.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: She's a lawyer too.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: There was a law dog and all the time.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, actually her and her firm assisted on the case.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: Really yeah yeah, no hunting, no hunting, no hunting at all. Yeah,
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: huh yeah.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Uh but actually glad.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so a lot of this stuff is just interesting
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: to me. I mean I don't know much about it,
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: but it's interesting hearing you guys talk about it.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: But uh, what do you think about that island out
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: there in California? Yeah, what'd you take?
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: Well?
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, eradicating from a helicopter seems a
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: little ungamely on sports after sports? Uh, but yeah, I
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: mean I think they should let colg hunt a little bit.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I think leg.
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: That's a perspective, that's a perspective.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Problem is with these guys. You got to pay a
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: lot just for a letter that says they recommend that.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a that's a freebie for you.
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: They call that pro bono.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so about this corner crossing things. So I
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: guess I want to do a little more background. Oh yeah, sure, sure, sure.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: You meet you're in law school, you meet another law school.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Do you guys call each other candidates?
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: Classmates?
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Randall here has got a pH d. He probably told
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: you about that, didn't He cal called them doctor told uh, okay,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: So you're in law school, you meet your wife. She's
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: in law school, and at some point she says, I
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: would like to get back. I would like to get
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: back home to Wyoming a few.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: More stops along the way. Actually, So my first job
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: was working for a law firm in Cleveland, and her
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: first job was working for a law firm in Las Vegas.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: So I was flying to Vegas like every other week,
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: it felt like, And I'm sure there were some questions
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: at the office, why Ryan's leaving all the time to
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: go to Vegas day every Friday? There I was, He's back,
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: but now I was just going to visit her and
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: wanted to. We weren't even engaged at the time, but
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: kind of knew she was the one. So I got
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: a job lined up out there, working with a judge,
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: so I could be out there starting in twenty seventeen.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: And funny, just funny story getting out there. I actually
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: my wildlife experience. Here's my wildlife experience. You're ready for it.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: There were friends we had in Vegas. They had two turtles,
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: Bonnie and Claus. Clyde was living in Ohio with their daughter,
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: and they asked me, because they knew that I was
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: moving to Vegas, if I would mind transport and Clyde
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: back to Bonnie. Uh.
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: So I drove.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Had I had him in a little plastic container, a
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: little bit of water, and he was sitting in the
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: passenger shoes just me.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Me and Clyde to him and be like, so, what
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: are you gonna say when you see her?
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: That's right? A buddy movie?
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So we we drew drove from Cleveland and
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: then our first stop was in Des Moines, and then
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: we went from Des Moines to Frisco, Colorado. We broke
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: down in Utah and had to stay. I can't remember
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: exactly where we were in Utah. I was driving a
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: little uh Chevy Cruise I had, and coming through Frisco.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: One of my windshow wipers stopped working, so I had
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: to kind of stick my head. It's hard to snow.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: It was in May, but it was snowing going up
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: the mountains, and.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Thought being a lawyer was supposed to be a lot.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Transfer broke down the turtle.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I broke down in Utah and somebody came
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: gave me a lyft tow truck driver and I'm sitting
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: there now in the tow truck with me and me
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: and Clyde and uh and then uh yeah, we we
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: stayed at a hotel for the night, got the car
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: fixed up, back on my way, made it to Vegas,
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: and reunited Bonnie and Clyde.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: So I tow truck drivers. Like, let me tell you
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: about people from another podcast.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Right now, this guy with the turtle. Yeah, this bitch
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: gets out he's got a turtle. Yeah, that's right.
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: He claims to me that he's reuniting the turtle.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: True story. I got photos.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: But yeah, uh so then that's my wildlife adventures.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: I transported a turtle across the country. But yeah, so
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: then I was in Vegas. I was clerking for a judge.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: There After I finished doing that, I worked for a
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: firm called Holland and Hart did that for a couple
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: of years, and then when my wife and I were
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: planning our to have a kid, we were like, well,
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: we don't we want to move back closer to some family,
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: and so we decided to go back closer to her
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: family and Casper, and we moved. It was like the
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: first week of March twenty twenty, really interesting time in
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: the world. And yeah, we moved to Casper and I've
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: been there ever since. But that you guys work at
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: different firms, different firms. Yeah, she still works for the
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: firms based in Vegas, her firm, and it has offices
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: in California and Colorado.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: And then my firm is basically me. So what's it
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: called Fuller and Samarad?
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Who's Fuller?
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: Don Fuller is my law partner.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, all right, So now you can do
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: one or two things up to you, sure lawyer's choice.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: You either explain how this how this whole thing came
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: to you or you explain what it is. But whatever order,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: both those things are gonna need to happen. Obviously, I'm
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: just putting you in my shoes as an interviewer. Yeah, sure,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Like I need to get that covered.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: I'll try to help you out. I'll try to help
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: you out. I can do it, you can, you know,
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: I'll I'll tell you how it came to me, because
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: that's probably the best way for me to explain it,
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: because again, I don't know nothing about nothing. Checkerboard was
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: a you know, it's where you played chess, the door checkers.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: I guess it's that's that's really That's really all I
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: knew about it. So, uh, yeah, it was November December
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: of twenty one and I got a call from another
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: attorney in town who said, hey, uh, one of those
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: corner hoppers needs another attorney and you want to do it.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: And I said to myself, what, what the fuck is
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: corner hopping? What do you what are you talking? I mean,
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: I didn't care. I'll take case. I mean, I don't
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: know what that is, but sure he seemed there was
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: a lot of employed in that statement, like like I
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: would know what that was, and I'd be really, yeah, I.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Was gonna ask, like, is that something lawyers and Casper
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: kind of I don't want to touch.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Well, well, no, why didn't he want it?
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: So no, he he did. He represented one of the hunters,
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: but so So in a criminal case, generally speaking, you
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: don't want to have one attorney representing multiple people because hey,
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: what if somebody wants to snitch? You know, that kind
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: of puts you in a bad spider. Where do you
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: guys use snitch? We call it proffering. Yeah, in the business,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: you'd say, my client's interested in proffering. God, that's the
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: other side's kind.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: So who is it? So if you have a gang
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: of criminals, this is way off subject.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Sure, let's say you have a gang of just reg
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: old bank robbers. Sure, they know they don't want all
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: one lawyer, Like, who doesn't want them to all have
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: one lawyer?
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: Well, the state bar says that we are not we're conflicted,
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: you know if I have an interest? Yeah yeah, But.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: It's not a defense strategy, it's just a it's just
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: a practice that's generally.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: Kind of both ways because it does put you in
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: a bad spot if if you were to represent everybody,
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: unless everybody's going to agree, you know, it's all for one,
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: one for all, and we're not gonna cross swords. But
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: you just you know, it's really hard to put yourself
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: in that position where yours everybody Yeah, yeah, yeah, So
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: I got this call, mainly because there were four of them,
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: and you know one I think at that point two
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: of the four already had attorneys, and so I said, sure,
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: I'll jump in on one of them, though I knew
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: nothing about it.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I not gonna turn down business.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was a good friend of mine, so
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, absolutely, I'll help for sure a report. Yeah, yeah,
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: for sure, for sure. So I jumped in and one
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: of the first things I did is call I mean,
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: you know, I got friends in Wyoming who hunt, so
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: you know, I can talk to them about things, and
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: they they know quite a bit about some stuff.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: You're like, yes, Ryan, the guy with the turtle, Yeah,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that's right, Hey, I got I gotta I got a
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: question for you.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: So so I call a buddy actually, and I asked him.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: I was like, what what is corner crossing? What is
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: what is? What am I looking at here? And the
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: way he kind of explained it to me is like
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: kind of a little bigger than just corner crossing specifically,
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: but about access and how it used to be and
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: if if you wanted to hunt somewhere but you knew
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: that there was some private land or there was a
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: ranch or whatever. You could go contact the owner of
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: that property or whoever's at the ranch manager say look, hey,
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: I want to go hunt over there. Are you okay
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: with it? Or hey, would you like me to help
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: you out on the ranch a little bit in exchange
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: if you'll let me go there. But there's been this
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: big dramatic shift and kind of pay to play that. Okay,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: you're either going to use our outfitter outfitter and pay
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: for it to get there, or you're not going at all,
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: or there's no communication whatsoever. And that's kind of the
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: broader picture of just it used to be, Oh, I
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: want to go over there because I'm going to go
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: hunt or whatever it is I want to do, and
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: that door has been closed. And corner crossing is just
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: like a subspecies of that whole problem, and it's and
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: it has more to do with this unique land pattern,
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: the checkerboard, which is alternating public in private square mile chunks.
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: You know, looks like a checkerboard, and where the public
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: and public share a corner with the private and private,
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: there's this philosophical, moral, legal question of whether or not
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: a person can go from that public square to the
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: other public square that would be your corner cross.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I like that you just put it as philosophical, moral
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: and legal. Yeah, I don't know that.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Okay, I mean I know the answer, but oh yeah,
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: what was the answer?
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: Cal can you?
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: Of course you can't walking in public.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Plan like my issue.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Philosophical, yes, legal, yes, I just haven't found a looking
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: at it at both sides, I haven't found a moral component.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so I guess the way that I always
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: but I.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Don't want to derail yourself.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: No no, no, no, no, no no no. I mean
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: when I think about this access generally or private property generally,
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, by the way, I also
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: did not like property law in law school. I thought
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: it was really dry and I don't know find and
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: here I find myself with the hunters and the property loss.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: But that what I say moral. I think property law
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: is always going to be kind of a moral choice
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: because it's both the most arbitrary kind of law we have,
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: because it's just imaginary lines drawn out in the world.
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: But it's also the thing that you know, we kill
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: the most people over. I mean, wars are always about property,
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: and I've always been And so when there's a question
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: of Okay, can I cross this corner? Sure, there's there's
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: there's legal, and there's the philosophical side of you know,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: what does it all mean? But from a moral perspective
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: of well, when it is ambiguous, or at least it
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: used to be, or it's getting less ambiguous. But when
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: it was ambiguous, am I doing something that is offending
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: the private property owner in a fundamental way? Am I
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: harming them? I damaging them? Am I going to do that?
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: You know? Am I going to be that kind of person?
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: Am I going to cross that rubicon? And I think
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: that that And then with the whole criminal side, I mean,
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: the whole criminal the difference between criminal and civil is
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: supposed to be. The criminal stuff is moral judgments we
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: make as a society and we're punishing you for it,
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: and civil is supposed to not have that necessary, necessarily,
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: that component to it. So that's kind of the way
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: I looked at it.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever, it's all that. Yeah, Yeah, I give It's.
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: Like he's a good lawyer, he's got a strong argument.
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she's going to law Yeah.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, So so you have that kind of basic situation.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: If you want to know more about the history of
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: the check reboard or whatever. I'm happy to tell you.
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: But the way it really erupted in this instance is
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: these three, originally two Missouri hunters, were hunting elsewhere in
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: Wyoming in twenty nineteen and passed through Carbon County near
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: Elk Mountain. And I have to say it because I
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: just love the phrase. And Phil Yeoman's my client in
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: the criminal case, said it in his deposition in the
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: civil case. You know why what attracted you about Elk
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: Mountain that area? And he said it, and his deposition
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: is great, looked Elkie. That's what he said. He said that,
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: and we all left. Yeah, yeah, established this fact, that's
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: what he said.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Objection, Yeah, I found the bunch grass load.
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: To be And so they just looked around, no one
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: was there, and thought it looked Elki and they were like, well,
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: we got to figure this out. So they go home
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: and they apply for a tag and it's going to
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: be at In twenty twenty, it was Phil Yeoman's, Brad
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: Cape and Zach Smith, those three guys alone, and they
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: went out and they hunted that area and they did
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: some research beforehand, and their research said to them, well,
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: they've got to have access because there's some federal law
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: and federal guidance out there that says you can't obstruct
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: access to public land. Just can't do it. And so
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: their perspective was, we can't. We should. If you can't
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: stop me, then I should be able to do it.
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: They get out there and they arrive at in its corner.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: It's checkerboarded right in that area, right on Elk Mountain,
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: right off Rattlesnake pass Road is where they went. Section fourteen.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: Section twenty four is kind of the that's the primary
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: access point to the southeast portion facing southeast of Elk Mountain.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: And they approach the corner and at the very first
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: corner there are two T posts and they're about a
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: foot away from each other. And the T posts.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Did you know what a T post was before this?
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: Nope, no idea, no idea what a TE post was.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: The answer is gonna be no to most of this stuff.
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: So stuff that I've learned.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Education.
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been an educational thing. Two T posts, two
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: tposts have no trespassing signs on them with a phone
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: number and Elk Mountain Ranch that's what it says. And
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: they're connected by chains and the chains are locked together,
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: So it's this kind of I always looked at it.
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: It's kind of you get to the front door of
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: a club and the bouncer has that velvet little rope,
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: so it's kind of let you in, let you not in.
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: That's kind of what it looked like to me. That's
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: how I always visualized it is. That's just real weird,
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: so strange out in the middle of nowhere, so there's
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: nothing else around it. And so they knew they had
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: to get past that to keep hunting on public land,
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: and so they each individually just grabbed onto the one
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: t posts and swung their body from the one square
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: of public land to the next square public land without
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: touching the private on either side, and went on their business.
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: And then they used on X their eyes and located
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: the rest of the actual us OR survey stakes at
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: each corner and just crossed over those corners to proceed
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: onward hunted. And it was a pretty successful hunt because
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: they're kind of by themselves, no one else out there.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: But you know, trouble came knocking because the ranch manager
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: found them. They were actually field dressing one other elk.
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: I think they only hunted elk that year and we
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: have an audio recording of it. Actually we got through discovery.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: Do you have to say, can you explain field dress?
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: Look, I'm using the term I don't even think I
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: still know what So if it sounds clunky, that's it's
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: like I'm speaking Germany for the first But yeah, so
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: that we have an audio recording of it, and ranch
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: manager approaches him basically says, like what he made.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: The audio recording Zach Smith, Yeah, just.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Because he had a feeling like this wasn't going to
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: be a pleasant thing.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: So if someone makes an audio recording, it usually carries
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: with it, uh that they feel they're in the.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: Right and and you can it's pretty emphatic on the
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: recording too, because they they say just as much to it.
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: Was Steve Grendi, the ranch manager for Elk Mountain Ranch, that, uh,
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: they everything they've read says that they're doing the right thing.
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: And they explained to them exactly what they had been doing.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: And and they were on a section of public land
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: at that time during that initial interaction, and and so
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: he basically says, you it's it's illegal to corner across.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: You can't do it. I'm gonna have to report you
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: to the authorities and so forth. So that after that,
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: Steve Grandy and others at Elk Mountain contact the Carbon
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office several times trying to get them to
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: issue citations or in fact, according to the owner of
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: the property, arrest these guys and rip them off the mountain.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: He wanted Kaufman stuff them.
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: He did. We had say that's exactly what he wanted,
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: and that did not happen. The Sheriff's deputy did interact
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: with the with Brad, Phil and Zach. They had an
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: in person conversation about what had happened. No citations were issued.
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: They basically said, yeah, you're good to go, man, We
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: appreciate you telling us what happened. That was it and
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: that was the end of twenty twenty. Nothing else but
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: the primary thing, and I skipped over this, but the
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: primary thing that Steve said is the fact that you
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: touch that te post, that's a trespass. You touch that
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: tea post, you make contact with our property, that's that's
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: your trespass. So that's stuck in their head like, well
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: that's a problem, that's his big problem. We'll solve that.
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: Because you see Brad is a fence builder by trade.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: So he that's one of my favorite details.
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so he is.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: My favorite details of this whole thing is he's in
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: the fencing business.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, so he so he builds Fancy's plants, a
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: tea post. He knows how this work. He knows exactly
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: how high a tea post is.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: This is a movie, like, oh right.
• 47:35
  Speaker 6: It's like a heist movie where they get all the
• 47:38
  Speaker 6: all the guy specialized skills together.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine like the Great Wall of China, right,
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: and like the Mongol Horde coming up to the edge
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: and one guy in the hoard being like, you know
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: why that doesn't intimidate me? Wall builder by trade?
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. So so to to Brad, he's like, well
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: that's solvable. Gets home and he says, I'm gonna I'm
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: gonna fabricate an a frame ladder that's sized to a
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: T post so that when we get there, we'll do
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: the same deal, but we won't touch the T posts
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: or the chain because that seems to be the problem.
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: And we want to go back because it's Elkie and
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: it's fun hunting and there's no one else there and
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: lots of public land, so they go home. There's no
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: criminal activity afoot. That just that weird interaction with Steve
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: and the conversation. They have the sheriff's office and.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: I can I ask quick questions? Yeah, when the sheriff
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: comes out and he susses everything out and they leave
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: it that that okay, You're cool. Uh. The ranch manager
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: does not act. He is not an agreement.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: Well, he was very upset that that time around.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: He was upset that he wasn't like, oh, thanks for
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: the clarification, My bad.
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: No, he was not thanks for the clarification. In fact,
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: what he told us later in the case is that
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: he was under the impression that something was going to happen,
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: that the sheriff's office was going to issue citations or
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: do something later. But they were gone, the hunt was over,
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: and he was kind of over it for the time being.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: He felt that they would follow up.
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was his perspective. So twenty one
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: comes around, Brad fabricates his ladder. They continue to do
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: their homework and nothing has changed. They the law side
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: of it, They think everything is exactly the same as
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: it was in twenty twenty. Were still good to go.
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: We had that interaction with the sheriff. Certainly if we
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: had done something wrong, the sheriff would have cited us.
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: I mean we talked to him, he had all of
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: our contact information. Something would happen, and we knew they're
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: The big issue with Grendee was touching the tea posts
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: will build the ladder. They go back, they get tags,
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: and they go back to hunting twenty one and they
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: bring a fourth person this time, and as John Slowinsky
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: and I'm telling you, you say the cinematic quality of this thing.
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: So he got Brad the fence builder. Zack Smith works
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: for Brad building fences. Phil Yeomans, if I get this right,
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: I believe is married to Brad's sister, or maybe John's
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: married to Brad's sister. John Slewinsky is a director of
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: a band out of high school. So you know, this
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: is the motley crew of dangerous thugs we're dealing with
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: here is you know, John the band director, fence builder,
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: his employee, and then Phil Yeomans, who dy or he
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: repairs delivery trucks for a chip company, Freedo La or
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: something like that. This is the crew. They come back
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: out in the fall twenty one, same story, but they
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: got the ladder. So they walk up to the first corner,
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: they their ladder with the legs of the ladder public public, public, public,
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: and right over that chain. And they just walk up
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: and down right over the chain and proceed exactly the
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: same as they did it in twenty same story, except
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: this time Steve Grundian Company are even more angry and
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: they're following them. In fact, the evidence that we collected
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: showed that Steve and Company or other Elk Mountain employees
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: were kind of chasing off the animals, driving their trucks
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: and side by sides at animals and kind of scaring
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: them off, following them around.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: Can I interject that absolutely, just for listener's sake. Yeah,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: the ranch manager, acting as a representative of the ranch,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: they are they have been under the assumption and have
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: been enjoying exclusive access to this public land which is
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: protected by this corner that they feel as a barrier
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: to entry. So you have a landowner owns and pays
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: taxes on surrounding ground, and because of his surrounding ground's
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: proximity to these pieces of public land, and because of
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: this corner that they view can't be crossed, they enjoy
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: exclusive access to the point where if this ranch was
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: transacting on the public market as it had in the past,
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: it would be pointed out in the listing that not
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: only are you buying x acres, you're getting a lot
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: of bonus land that only you can use. So there's
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: a lot. There's a lot to defend here from the
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: position of the landowner is defending a side chunk of
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: ground that they had assumed was for all intents and
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: purposes theirs.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: But I think there's another right argument out there of
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: whether or not you should give them the benefit of
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: the doubt that they are operating under that assumption.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, so all right, that's great, that's
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: a very good point, and we should have chosen to
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: work more carefully because it could be that they recognize
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: that they don't quite but it would be nice if
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: they did. And therefore, defending this vulnerability is of utmost
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: importance because this whole house of cards could collapse.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: How we misture ourselves could have.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Ramifications, meaning it could ben You know, we got a problem.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Our assumption about our day facto ownership of this ground
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: is tenuous. It's it's the laws rather arbitrary. We paid
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: a good chunk of money thinking that it was right.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: But the more I look into this, this is a
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: real vulnerability and something we ought to be paying attention to,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: and we should play our and we should handle our
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: you know, play our cards in an effective fashion here
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: because this is this is not good.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, they went so far as to say this
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: would affect the value of the property.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's real important to get to that later.
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. And it's funny. There was a
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: company called the Chickering Company that had the property listing
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: for Elk Mountain Ranch and we we've saved it elsewhere,
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: but I just threw it up in my computer.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: See if I could pull up the listing, and they've
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: taken that listing down, so that listing's gone, which is fun.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: But the listing pointed out yes, yeah, so the purchaser,
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: if the purchaser, say, say an individual such as yourself,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: not schooled in these issues, a purchaser might have looked
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: and been like sweet, yeah, without really having a deep
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: history in this whole argument.
• 55:00
  Speaker 6: And in their mind they paid for that, yeah, absolutely,
• 55:03
  Speaker 6: so they in their mind they have a property right yeah.
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: And and in fact, that's that's what came out later
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: in the case, when we were deposing doctor Fred Ashman,
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: who's the owner of the holding company that owns the
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: property itself, he said when he purchased the property, he
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: was under the impression that nobody could corner cross, and
• 55:23
  Speaker 4: so he didn't finish the sentence with and so I
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: had exclusive access to everything. But obviously that's the implication.
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: If if no one can corner cross, which is the
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: only way on foot you could access that land, then
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: there is no foot travel access at all on Elk Mountain, period,
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: which is checkerboarded to wazoo. So yeah, no, that's one
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: hundred percent, that's and that is it. I mean, we
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: always called it the first corner. Section fourteen and twenty
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: four is the first corner. It is the prime mover
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: if that is unlocked. And that's the only place they
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: put this t post chain no trespass signs because they
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: I mean it tascit acknowledgment. If that's blocked, you don't
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: need to block anything else. You can't cross there, you
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: can't get to anywhere else, period. And there just so
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: happens to be a public road that runs through section fourteen.
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: So if you can drive on that public road, park
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: your truck, walk off the public road right to that corner,
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: and cross that corner. Then yeah, you've got the keys
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: to the castle. You can go to all that public land.
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: And that's what these guys did, both in twenty and
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: twenty one, and then twenty one obviously just led to
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: this because twenty one is when, after much cajoling, the
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: Carbon County District Attorney's office gave instructions to the Carbon
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: County Sheriff's office, you will go cite those four hunters
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: for trespass.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: And how often does something like that happen that the
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: DA district attorney has to call a law enforcement officer
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: to tell them to issue a citation.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: Man, I got a friend who is a DA in
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: a county different state, But yeah, neighboring state would love
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: to ask them that question.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: Well, that law enforcement officer had already told them, I'm
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: not I'm not going to cite.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: You, right. Yeah, So it's and this is I asked
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: the question earlier about that agency you guys were talking
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: about down in Colorado or Washington, and and and I
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: think you know this is this is the interesting thing
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: is that so in Wyoming game and Fish, they're the
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: those individuals and officers can deal with anything under Title three,
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: which has to do with game, fish hunting and all
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: that which would be trespassed to hunt. That is, they
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: have jurisdiction to issue that citation. But when it comes
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: to regular ole criminal trespass that is not that's under
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: Title six. It's a regular crime, and so game and
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: fish can issue that citation. They can only issue the
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: other one. So it would have to be the sheriff.
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: But for whatever reason surrounding this corner crossing issue, unlike
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: a speeding ticket or if you got a bag of
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: meth in your pocket, when it comes to corner crossing,
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: the sheriff doesn't just cite you and arrest here whatever.
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: They got a write a report, send it to the
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: district attorney, and the district attorney has to think on
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: it and then give them the thumbs up or thumbs down.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: I don't know why that's the methodology, but that's apparently
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: what they say they need to do in this instance.
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: Very abnormal for sure, and so yeah that ultimately after
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: they go hunting in twenty one.
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I gotta pause right now, regular old game warden
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: sitting there on a county road in plane view, which
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: is a term where you learned yesterday from a game
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: organ from game warden watches somebody who does not appear
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: to be hunting get off of that same county road
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: and walk through somebody's property that is posted with no
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: trespassing signs. That officer of the law doesn't have to
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: act on anything there because it's not within their realm
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: of things they can act on.
• 59:15
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: So, but a sheriff, which witnesses the same thing has
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: to write a report, go leave that scene, go to
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: the district attorney, say hey, I just witnessed this. Let
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: me know whenever you get around to what we should
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: do about that thing that may or may not be trespassing.
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: And that's how the law in Wyoming works.
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: You know. I'll tell you that there's always the law
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: on the law. There's the law that's on the paper,
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: and then there's the law on the way it goes.
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: And I'll tell you the way that it would go.
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: If a game warden saw someone just trotting through someone's
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: private field, they would probably stop them and do something,
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: and I would imagine they would find a way to
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: issue some citation. But again, just the way you know,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: things are selective. There's discretion in everything, and for whatever reason,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: when it comes to corner crossing, there is this selectivity
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: that the game Warden's not gonna do anything. The sheriff's
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: deputy is going to write a report and leave it
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: to the d A.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean specific, it's got to be because there's
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: no law that clearly states whether it's legal or illegal.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: Right, that's right, there.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 9: Is and that's that's like the biggest I want you
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 9: to keep going and keep cranking along, but that's the
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 9: biggest thing in my uh, in my view on this
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 9: thing is like the lingering arbitrariness or not even arbitrary.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: The lingering question, like what you're talking about, has a
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: stem from the fact of I don't know is the
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: guy gonna is the is the is the DA gonna
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: feel like doing this?
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And I'm not gonna him all these citations
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: if he's going to be like, man, I'm not waiting
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: into that.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: And I'll tell you from my conversations with county county
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: attorneys across the state of Wyoming, it very very few
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: have any interest whatsoever in citing anyone for corner crossing.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: In fact, i've had at least four or five and
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: three counties and including one who used to work in
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: carbon counties. Not there anymore. Tell me, under no circumstances,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: what I cite for or would I tell anyone to
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: be cited for that, let alone prosecuted to trial.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because if they know, they're just opening themselves up
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: to a very confusing, like potentially like case that just
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: drags on and gets muddy like this one, or they lose, yeah,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: like this one.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: Right, And I do want to kind of move past
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: the criminal case because that that's the saga, that's the
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: the story. They went hunting again in twenty one. They
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: used the latter to do their first corner cross and
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: they found the other corners and they continued to cross,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: and ultimately they get cited for criminal trespass. But you
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: got to understand that trespass comes in many flavors and
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: criminal trespasses, but one I already referred to trespass to hunt.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: But the big one and the thing that's going to
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: maybe change some things is this civil trespass lawsuit that
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: was filed as kind of a tack on to the
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: criminal case.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: It just real quick with the criminal case. Yeah, just
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: the results.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, well the results of the criminal case.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: So we took the thing to trial after much litigation beforehand,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: trying to knock that thing out and saying this is stupid,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: it's not a crime, it's legal, so forth and so on.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: But we didn't went on that, but we went to
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: a jury trial. Jerry returned a verdict in just a
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: little under two hours, not guilty.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: How hard was jury selection? Did you throw out landowners?
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: We did not throw out landowners. We did throw out
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: a couple of people who had some business connections to
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: this landowner because they candidly were like, well, we just
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: don't really know how that's gonna work for us.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: If there were happened to be a fence builder. No, no,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: so we we It was jury selection hard. It It
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: actually was a little easier than I thought. There did
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: break out some debate among the potential jurors over corner
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: crossing and what what we should be doing when.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: You're when you're out in the world traveling, and and
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: what's trespassed what's not trespass, which is very interesting. Just
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: was there hunters on the jury? I think yes, there
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: was at the four person Foreman was a hunter. Yeah. Uh,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: And if I remember correctly, the four person during jury selection,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: he told this story that was something like, well, I
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: was out hunting once and I was right, I was
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: getting near the property line, and I but I thought
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: to myself, you know, I'm gonna be really careful. I
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: don't I don't want to get too close to the
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: property line. So I'm going to stay a good hundred
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: yards from the property line. I want to even get
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: near it. And my thought process was, Oh, this guy,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: he might actually get it, like he understands. But I
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: think the prosecution thought, oh, this guy really is going
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: to be a stickler, and so I thought they were
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: going to knock him out for sure. And then when
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: we kept going back and forth knocking Jerors out and
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: he kept sticking along, I just think, just let him stay,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: and sure enough he's our four person.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah, because you could read that as like he's overly
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 6: deferential to private property rights, or like he knows that
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 6: this is a mess and he wants to cover his own.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: Ass right right, yeah, yeah, or where he appreciates the
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: absurdity of it, or at least the results that would
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: come from, if that's really what trespass is.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: So he stuck around and we got a not guilties
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: on for all four guys on two different theories of trespass.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: Deliberation was all long, just under two hours, which was great.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: Zach Smith actually knocked over his water pitcher onto John
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: Slowinski during the verdict reading, which was great. He stood
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: up and there was a water pitcher in front of him,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: knocked it and flipped it right into John.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: So do you know, do you know? Do you have
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: any insight into the deliberation room.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: Nope, Jerry Jurors would not talk to anybody, wouldn't talk
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: to reporters, wouldn't talk to us. So no, don't know,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: don't know what went on there. And then interestingly, during
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: jury's selection, three of the three guys from twenty twenty
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 4: were issued citations by the sheriff's deputy for the twenty
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: twenty hunt, like we know.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 5: Where those guys are.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. It was really bizarre because there were
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: jurors in the room when the sheriff handed them citations
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: up right at the beginning of trial. I don't remember
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: what for the twenty twenty hunt, same thing hunt. Yeah,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: he served them with citations for during jury selection.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: But then did that trespass case get rolled into the
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: same trespass case.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, So it was technically it was going
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: to go on its own separate little track. But a
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: few days after the verdict, the state elected to dismiss
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: those charges.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I didn't know that.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so we almost had to do it all over again.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: So could I just record, yeah, play for the.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: Next Yeah, I mean so thankfully that went away. What
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: do you think the their reasoning there was for their goal?
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: I think maybe they were thinking, if they got convictions
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: at trial, we'd have to take a plea on that
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: new set of charges or something like that. I honestly
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: don't know why they wouldn't just charge it or do
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: it all at the same time. We in fact had
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: said that early on in the case, was like, well,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: if you're you know, either either that information's coming in
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: because we're dealing with it now, or it's not. They
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: can't talk about it at all because it's not part
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: of this case. It's not relevant. It's kind of a
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: weird angle that took place, but it got sorted. But yeah,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: the more and the criminal case thankfully kind of ended
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: that way, ended with a whimper. But In the meantime,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: in February of the same year, three months before trial
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: for the criminal trial, we got an email. All the
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: criminal defense attorneys got an email from this other attorney
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: who I had not known before, said, Hey, I represent
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: the ranch. We're suing your guys for trespass. You guys
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: gonna accept service? Or do I have to go serve
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: them with papers? Really it's a fun email to receive.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: For sure, I'd be like, where are you based?
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So it was an interesting move. I was wondering
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: if that was going to happen, and then it did,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: and so that kicked off this civil lawsuit.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: Did that letters like state the nature of their civil
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: suit or it just said we're starting a civil suit against.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: These It actually attached the complaint, which is the case
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: initiating document for the civil suit. So so we saw
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: what the claim was, and so we accepted service.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: And ultimately you didn't know the dollar figure at that time.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: No, Nope, didn't did not know. Did not know. And
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: that's an interesting.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Curious about the dollar figure.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 4: Well, I was a little bit. I thought it was
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: silly because at least in Wyoming and in many states,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: you know, trespass can ordinarily only get you whatever damage
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: was caused, or a nominal amount of damages, you know,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: if if you trespass. You know the example I use
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: because something that rings true to me. He used to
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: play a lot of whiffleball in my parents' backyard when
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: I was a kid. And you'd hit the ball of
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: the fence. Yeah yeah, and uh, you hop the fence,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: go get the whiffleball, and you're in your neighbor's yard
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: for five seconds, and you grab the ball, you go back. Well,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: is that trespass technically, Yeah, he didn't ask for permission.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: You're on their property. That's trespass. Is it twenty five
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: percent of the value of their house worth of trespass?
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. So the court if they were
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: to sue that little kid.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: If that were true, what is happening in Steve's neighborhood.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, there'd be rich, yeah or poor, depending I'd
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: be richie.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there'd be a lot of cross counter suits. There's
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: a lot of counter suits among the various families with kids.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, right, So so I just in that instance,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: you could get if you really want to sue, you
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: get nominal damages, which is it's always some ten dollars,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: twenty dollars, fifty dollars whatever.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: That's the way I looked at it. But I cared
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: about the value because I wanted to take the case
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 4: to federal court because they had followed their case in
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 4: state cour and I was really keen on, no, if
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: we're going to do this, let's get an answer and
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: let's get a real answer. So I wanted to go
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: to federal court. So I told the guys, look, this
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: is my theory, this is the way I want I
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 4: think we should do this. And so it all kind
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: of shook out that the guys were like, all right,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 4: we're gonna use you do the civil case for us,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: like we all four because I can do all four
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: of them in a civil case. So they were like, yeah,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: you do the civil case. And so the very first
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: thing we did was we removed that's the word for it.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 4: We removed the case from state court to federal court.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: And the reason the dollar figure mattered is because there
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: were two grounds that we raised to try to get
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: that thing into federal court because federal courts have limited jurisdiction.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 4: And the one ground we said that we were a
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: little more confident on was we're citizens of different states.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: This isn't it's a Wyoming company and we are Missouri residents. Well,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 4: technically it's got North Carolina City and ship that company.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: Because it's an LLC, it doesn't matter, boring, but it's
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 4: a different state. But we also need to satisfy the
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: amount in controversy needs to be more than seventy five
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: thousand dollars. We need to affirmatively show that. So we
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: put in our notice, look this thing, and we cited
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: the property listing this property is worth all this money.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: And they're claiming, and they claimed and their complaint that
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 4: we clouded the title to their property by corner crossing.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: So we argued, look, if they're saying that we're affecting
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: the marketability of this sixteen point twenty two million or
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: whatever it was, property, then certainly it's that much is
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: at issue, so take our case. And interesting, but you
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 4: guys came up with the number at first at first,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 4: and interest is it was a challenge, Yeah, because we
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: want to take to federal court. We said, look, their
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: complaining that we're messing with the ability to sell this property.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: You got to take our case. The other angle was
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 4: we said, there's a federal question here. The federal question
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 4: is what Unlawful Enclosures Act? How does that apply? There's
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: all this federal land at issue. Access is a hugely
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 4: important public interest. This court needs to answer that. We
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: need an answer. Interestingly, they of course asked for the
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 4: case to go back to state court, and they said
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 4: that's because they ain't that much at issue. They haven't
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: shown that there's that much at issue. They actually said
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 4: that way back when they said, look, they haven't shown
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 4: the amountain controversy. We didn't say the amountain controversy was
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: that much. You know, there's no federal questions here, just
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: a regular old trespassed lawsuit. Send us back to state court.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: They said that, and they lost on that, and their
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: motion to send it back was denied. Kept the case
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: state in federal court, which was huge, And then we
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: tried to it's strange little judo here. Then we tried
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: to dismiss their case and say they don't have one
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: so it's just a lot of yeah.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: And still there hadn't been a dollar amount floated, not yet,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: not yet, because that that would come later. We lost
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: that motion of dismiss but the judge said something really
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: interesting in that order. He said, Look, I don't think
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: I can dismiss this case yet, but I do think
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: you can raise a defense to a corner crossing trespass
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: using the Unlawful Enclosures Act. I do think that you
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: have the ability to defend yourself if someone sues you
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: or claims that you've committed a trespass because you corner
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: crossed by saying there's a federal law that protects me,
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: just like Brad and company had said way back when
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: to that sheriff's deputy.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: Is that common for a judge to throw out like a.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 4: Tip, Well, we had put that in our motion. We
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: said that's why he should dismiss it. And there was
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: this question of whether we could even raise that deface.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: Oh I can't. I'm not going to dismiss it. But
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: that's a that's an arguable point.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, he said, this isn't enough to throw it out,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 6: but this is something that is worth considering.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: Exactly, That's exactly what he said. He said that that's
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: a real thing to consider.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: That give you some kind of like warm and fuzzies inside.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean, you know, I'll lose the battle, but
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: win the war. All day long. So that's okay, and
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: it set me back, but it still give me the path.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: So no, it was that was a good sign for sure.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 4: But then after we lost that motion, that's what triggers
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: kind of okay, we got to start exchanging information and
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: discovery and very first disclosure we got. I remember I was.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: I think I was driving back. I was in my
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 4: car now with the turtle now now just me. Uh,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 4: maybe I was driving back from like a weird little
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: assault trial I had in Rawlins or something. I remember.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: I sounds like a country song.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: You've driven through Rollins, right, Yeah, weird.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure it was. It was this guy. He
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: was a truck driver and he got jumped by four
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 4: other truck drivers because he was trying to get up
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 4: to the fuel pump and they were just sitting there
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 4: playing on their phone or something, so it was honking
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 4: his horn. Oh and and he didn't know that they
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: had like four people in the cab of their truck.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 4: He just thought it was just the driver, and they
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: popped out and kicked his ass, and but he got
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: side too, and so he wanted to try the case
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: because he's like, no, I'm the victim, So Yeah, I
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 4: remember that. Yeah, we went, we had a trial, we
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: won that trip. Yeah. And then as I was driving
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 4: back and I got this ping on my phone and
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 4: it was the initial disclosures document from the ranch. And
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: that's the first time they've got to say what they
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 4: think their damages are and.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: Trying to read that while you drive, and yeah, take
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: a peek.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 4: Well, I didn't read all their crazy attachments, but I
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 4: did look for a number. I was just trying to
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 4: find a number, is what I cared about. And that's
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 4: when I saw, for the very first time they had this.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: It starts off simple ten dollars for damages, and then
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 4: it starts then it gets weird three point one million
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: to seven point seventy five million for actual damages arising
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: from defendant's conduct colon ten percent to twenty five percent
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: diminution of value of the real property parentheses, subject to revision.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 4: And I I just kind of I couldn't I couldn't
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 4: quite understand exactly. I think I liked it on one hand,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 4: because they conceded the amount in controversy finally, so now
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 4: I knew I was in the right court. But then
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 4: on the other hand, I was like, they really think
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 4: that they're gonna show show this because because the way
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 4: I always thought about it was this, if they're right
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 4: and we had no right to corner cross, then there's
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 4: no loss of value to their property there, you know,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: conception of what they have stays exactly the same. But
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 4: if they're wrong and they can't stop people from corner crossing, well,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 4: then they don't have any way. If there's some little
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 4: premium that their property enjoys because no one can corner cross,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 4: well that premium is false, had never existed.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 6: It's like if you bought a place thinking that there's
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 6: a whole bunch of gold on it, and then the gold's.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 4: Not actually there.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 6: You're not about my house tale as old as time. Yeah,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 6: So they're like, like the value is the value is.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: Always imaginary essentially right. I always felt maybe you can
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: get to this in your narrative. I always felt that
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: this gentleman's uh the landowners gripe should have been with
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: some people in the real estate industry, you know, or
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: his attorney who did the deal. Why is he not
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: mad at him?
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 4: Maybe because the statute of limitations is run.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: Uh, but you know what I mean, Like, if I
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: bought a thing on an assumption and I was led
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: by people. I'm paying commissions to fees to to vet
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: right and due diligence on a on a purchase, and
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: then it winds up being that some contractor says, hey,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you realize everything inside this place
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: is black mold, right. Do I go, you know what,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: mister contractor, you owe me money for this house? Or
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: would I go, Man, I need to go talk to
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: my building inspector who said everything's cool. Yeah, yeah, But
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: it just felt like so miss It felt so misassigned.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: So the blame, I think.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 4: That that's that's absolutely right. It's definitely missed as signed blame.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: But I think it was just it was in his mind.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: And I'm just reading Tea Leaves that this is the
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: enforcement mechanism of the right he thought he had. Is
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 4: that he when he bought the property, he was like, hey, look,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 4: people are going to try it, I guess, but they can't.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 4: And I'm going to win this. I'm gonna stamp it
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 4: out and I'm gonna throw out these numbers because I
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 4: want to show how serious I am about how I
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: value this, this privilege that I believe I enjoy this
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 4: property interest that I believe I have, and so I
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 4: think it was kind of a bark, you know, not
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 4: a lot of bite, a lot of bark. And I
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: think that there was a realization of that because of
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: the public attention on the case that if we can
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 4: get out into the atmosphere, this is really what you're
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 4: facing and believing. Not a fun conversation to call a
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 4: fence builder, his employee, a truck repair guy, and a
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 4: band director and say they think the damages are, you know,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 4: getting close to ten million dollars.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: What's in your accounts right now?
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, not not a fun conversation at all.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to So I'm just trying to
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: get the law. I don't want to stop you because
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: you're doing a great job. We'll explain a whole thing,
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: just trying to. I've never been able to grapple with
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: the logic. It's it's more of.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 6: An attempt to keep the house of cards, to make
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 6: the house of cards look like it's still standing essentially.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I mean we were talking earlier about
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 4: security theater and how like you know TSA for example,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 4: they wear their uniforms and they have their scanners and
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: they do all their stuff, and they look really serious
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 4: and they're kind of, you know, stern folks, because the
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: visual of security is more important than the reality, like
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: can they actually stop stuff? We know they don't stop stuff.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 4: We know they're not good at it. But for most people,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 4: just the apparatus, the visual is enough to make it secure.
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 4: You're not going to try it, you're not going to
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: test it. And I think that was the concept behind.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: Their loss of pocket knife. To those guys, you look
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: me in the eye, Well, I know they haven't found
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: your pocket knife.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 4: I've never bought a pocket knife, but.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: Everyone at this table can a test to their effectiveness
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: a pocket knife detection.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 4: I straight shotgun shells. Well, I think their stats when
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: they do their quality control are not very good. But
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 4: with stuff that can actually get through. Yeah, yeah, but
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 4: but yeah.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not joking. We've all lost knives of those people,
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: but go on.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 4: But but so I think that the concept was if
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: I throw out this is how serious it is. It's
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: ten million, seven point seven five million dollars worth of damages,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 4: do not even think about it. That was the That
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 4: was the message to everybody.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: It's peacocky, Yeah.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: Don't exactly, but it like, did they ever acknowledge that
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: in like suing for the that amount of damages to
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: the property, they're also admitting that the damage was done
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: because corner crossing is legal.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: No, but there's no that that's the damage was done because.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 6: He did it right, and he owes me yeah, because
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 6: corner crossing.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: Is legal, Like it's well, yeah, it is strange, am
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: I just reading No? No, no, you're reading it exactly right.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: And I think there was two angles of this. When
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: they're trying to be legitimate.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 4: Their claim was, well, these four guys and everybody who
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 4: had been helping them with funding and BHA, everybody else
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 4: that's involved in this issue of recognizing the legality of
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 4: corner crossing, they're in some conspiracy to just have everybody
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 4: run amook on the ranch and commit just serial after
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 4: cereal trespass. So I think that was the concept is like, well,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 4: these guys are the spear, their tip of the spear
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 4: that's going to puncture my property rights. So that's why
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 4: I'm going to go after them. But I think the reality, if.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: You know, that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah, satisfies Yeah.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: But I also speaks back to the flaw in their
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 3: initial strategy right, which we've discussed. It's like, if that
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: is what you wanted to circumvent, you don't call the sheriff,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: you don't call the DA. You have a person to
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: person conversation with this group, and you figure out a
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: way to let them continue on what they're legally doing
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 3: in a way that is completely inconspicuous to every other
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: group of hunters out there that could ever go down
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: that county road.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: It'd be better if you're parked up by the house and.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: Act why don't you park up at the ranch house
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: and would have liked to keep this spot a secret
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: as well?
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 5: I mean that they wouldn't.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: That's the real victim here. These guys are spots alone.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be a pumpkin patch up there.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: What in a civil trial, what is the damage amount
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: assigned to losing a good hunting spot?
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: Ten million?
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: Because you blew this whole thing up now it looks
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: like that, Like you know, I was trying to make
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: this analogy for you know that famous photo of people
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: trying to get to the Klondike gold Field and you're
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: climbing up that pass out of Whittier. That's what that
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: ladder looks like right now going into this golden something
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. I said that that whole
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 4: question was just straight, and it got stranger still because
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: as the case progressed, they got an expert who was
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 4: gonna who opined about this diminution and value of corner
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 4: crossing is legal, and that was how he based the
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 4: opinion too. It wasn't like, oh, my opinion is based
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 4: on what the footfalls of these four hunters in twenty
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 4: and twenty twenty one caused this damage. His opinion was, well,
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: if a court says it's legal, this is what's going
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 4: to happen to the resale value if you ranch. And
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 4: he even went higher. He said that the diminution of
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 4: value could be as high as like thirty percent, just
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: because that's he knows selling ranches, and this is how
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 4: hard it would be. So then so that I guess
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 4: the damn just went up a little bit. And then
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 4: we got to kind of the eve of the summary
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 4: judgment hearing and we get this filing from them that says, look,
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 4: if you rule in our and you say corner crossing
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 4: is illegal or that these guys committed a trespass and
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 4: the way that they did their corner crossing, Uh, will
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 4: drop our damages, we won't ask for any money, and
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 4: they can keep on. And this went to the court. Yeah,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 4: they filed this with the court. They filed that with
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 4: the court and they said, I, if you if you
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 4: ruin our favor, we're not asking for any money, we
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 4: won't ask for anything. But they waited until right before.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: Wouldn't that point be not Why would the court be
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: able to consider that because they're not the court's not negotiating.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it was too if it was
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 4: an active diplomacy and it was like bringing the beer
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: to the guys at the fish clean the Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: it was like, look, don't don't worry if if you're
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 4: if you have heartburn about ruling in my favor because
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 4: I'm going to crush these people with the damages. Don't worry.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to do that.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: Got it? And so what was that presented to the
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: alleged trespassers as a deal or did it was it
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: just sitting in the court.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: No, it was just filed with the court. It was
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 4: just it was just filed with the court saying, look,
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 4: if you if you rule in our favor, were we're
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 4: going to drop this or we're not going to even
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 4: go for all.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: But then are your clients notified of this of this question?
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, no, yeah, they would see that. But
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 4: it wasn't It wasn't like an offer of settlement. It
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: wasn't like, hey, let's settle this thing. It was just
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: to the judge. So it kind of was what it was,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 4: and the judge says, well, ultimately the judge ruled in
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 4: our favor. So the judge never addressed that issue at all.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 4: Oh okay, yeah, yeah, it was just kind of sitting
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 4: out there.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: It was just an interesting he never he never had
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: to wait, he's never forced to weigh in.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 4: On now, I did not have to weigh in on that.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 4: That that that side of it. Yeah. So we go
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 4: through that whole discovery phase, collecting evidence and whatnot through
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 4: and in March of twenty three, I think, maybe no
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 4: April fifteenth of twenty three, and then we all filed
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 4: competing motions saying you don't need to have a trial
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 4: in this case. We win for this reason, and they
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 4: filed their corresponding motion, and then we had a summary
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 4: judgment hearing on those motions on May tenth of twenty
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 4: three and made our arguments directly to Jude Scavdal and
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 4: kind of he questioned us, peppered us. He's a very
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 4: prepared judge, and he was ready, and he had lots
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 4: of questions for everybody, and then we waited, and then
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 4: it was kind of okay.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: Well, give me a sense of what would be a question.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 4: Well, so just like I'm.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: Just curious, how particular are his questions? Oh?
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 4: Pretty, pretty particular. For example, I think I spoke for
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 4: maybe twenty thirty seven I've got the transcript somewhere, but
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 4: I spoke for maybe twenty thirty seconds, and he interrupted
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 4: me with a question of something like, well, how is
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 4: this not they have this bundle of sticks is the
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 4: way lawyers like to talk about property. And they have
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 4: a right to exclude people from their property, and that
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 4: includes the super adjacent airspace above their property. So when
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 4: they crossed through that corner, I mean, are they they
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 4: are crossing through airspace that's technically above their property, So
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 4: why doesn't that affect their right to exclude I mean
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 4: it was like that level of granularity, and so so yeah,
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 4: you'd get those questions. He asked about the damage this
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 4: thing too. He kind of had the similar question that
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 4: we've all been wrestling around with with, like, well, damned
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 4: if you do, damned if you don't, how do I
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 4: how do I reconcile that this premium that they're placing
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 4: on their property. So, yeah, it was, it was detailed.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 4: He was ready, and then we waited. So we were
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 4: kind of just getting ready for trial because you got
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 4: to prepare in case the judge isn't going to rule.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: You got to waited.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 4: How long we waited, Oh shoot, I think it was
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 4: a couple of weeks. I think his decision came out
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 4: on May twenty third, if I'm not mistaken, And so
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 4: we waited two weeks just about to get a ruling.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 4: And when he issued that for that order, that kind
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 4: of took a lot of stuff off the table and
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 4: clarified quite a bit. This ambiguity about corner crossing, I
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 4: think was taken away. I mean, everything that we've always
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 4: thought about, just the absurdity of it, the practicality of it.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: That order summarizes ruling.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 4: The public is entitled to a right of reasonable access
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 4: across the corner from public to public and the checkerboard,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 4: and when they do that. They cannot touch the private land,
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 4: they cannot damage the private land and the private land
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 4: or can't stop them.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: And what about the he asked about it.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: So what was his take on the air Yeah, so
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 3: he didn't go in that very specific direction of what
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 3: his airspace mean and how do we divvy it up?
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: How can he to get to Tom mcguain can't ignore it,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: I mean what about the air.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what he hung his hat on was precedent. He
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 4: hung his hat on a couple of cases, in particular
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 4: this really old case called Mackay. It was sheep herder
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 4: was trailing his sheep through the checkerboard and landowner and
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 4: similar case actually because he was prosecuted criminally and suited
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 4: civilly and the court said it's not it's not civil
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 4: trespass to eat the sheep half and the sheep herder
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 4: have to be able to access those public lands and
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 4: it's not trespass for them to access them in a.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: Reason sheep ladder, Yeah, no, I'd be way to fall
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: asleep at night picture sheep going over that ladder.
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 4: So so he hung his hat on that and that
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 4: that case. But as far as the airspace question, I
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 4: guarantee it's coming back. It's going to come back on
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 4: this appeal that we have going on right now, and
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 4: we're going to have to we're going to have to
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 4: pin it down or at least respond to it. But
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 4: the way we responded to it last time was, look, uh,
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 4: airspace trespass, which is kind of this it's a weird
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 4: question because it hasn't really affect us too much. We've
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 4: already had cases to say airplanes are not trespassing on
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 4: private property when they're flying overhead. But there was kind
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 4: of this threshold of you know, some undetermined amount of
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 4: space above the land that a private land or has
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 4: the right to control. But the trespass cases have always
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 4: said it's not an actual trespass if you use that
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 4: airspace or go through that airspace unless it causes damage
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 4: or interferes with the use of the airspace. And that
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 4: was what we hung our hat on, is to say, look,
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 4: if they're gonna go with an airspace trespass whatever, well,
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 4: they weren't using the wide open range land airspace or
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 4: or the land itself at all other than their teposts,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 4: and we weren't interfering with that non use of that land,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 4: so it's not an actionable trespass. That's that was our
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 4: response then, and it didn't really become super crucial at
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 4: that in skyt Doll's ruling, But it's something we'll have
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 4: to address when we get to the appeal for sure.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: What's the appeal look like.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so right now we don't know quite yet. We
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 4: just know that the case is on appeal. All the way,
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 4: there was this whole motion to stay scaped All's ruling
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 4: and that got denied. Basically the landowner said, look, if
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 4: you don't stay this ruling, come hunting season in the fall,
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 4: everyone's going to be running ramping over my land. I
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 4: actually don't know what the current status so that is.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 4: I don't know people have been corner crossing or not
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 4: because have.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: You been out there?
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 4: Have you driven out to the ven? I've driven through,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 4: but I've never been out to the corner. I've never been.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 4: I want to go I do. I want to go
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 4: right to that corner. I really really.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 6: Don't feel like when this is all settled, the band
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 6: director should bring his marching band out.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: Zero appetite. I would have zero appetite to hop that
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: corner man.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 5: Just like but.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: That's a really interesting point because there's nothing it's already
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 3: been discovered, right, So it's not like a sneaky hunting
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: spot anymore. So like if you're if your point of
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 3: view is purely just hunting, it's not going to be
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: to this very known place now, right. But I just
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: made a really interesting observation, and Ryan and I were
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 3: talking about it because I drove out to Buffalo, Wyoming.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: T RCP and b h A did listening sessions where
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: they tried to invite in stakeholders to discuss corner crossing
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: and just kind of get a temperature of everybody's feelings.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: And uh, Maggie Hudlow went to a couple for us too,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: and kind of in the hopes that something really dramatic
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: would happen really that we could, you know, put on
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 3: the website and talk about. And the most impactful part
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 3: of that to me was like everyone in that room
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: was very interested in access to public land. Nobody in
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 3: that room was all that wrapped up in corner crossing.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: The takeaway that I.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: Had not wrapped up in that specific issue.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: Not wrapped up in that specific issue. The takeaway that
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: I had is this is something that we do. This
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 3: is something that we have done, and this is something
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: that we will continue to do. And it's just not
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 3: it's not an issue. It's not something that we talk about,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: right because it's it is a means of access currently
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: it has been a means of access. And and even
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: the landowners present, they were much more concerned about, well,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: these places that it you know, it's like a thoroughfare
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 3: where it's a bigger chunk and people park there. What
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 3: about the parking and what about the you know, stuff like.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: A bunch of proxy arguments.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, My interest in it, my interest in the subject,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: which is deep, has mostly always stemmed from how could
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: something like this be unclear? Like of something of like
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: such huge ramification and such squabbling and loss, Like how
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: could I'm sure, because you work in the law, you
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: probably were of a lot of things that are unclear.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, how in the world is this not
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: even the world is this unclear?
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: Even going all the way back to when they came
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: up with this checkerboard system, they weren't like.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: Huh, someone someone that the railroad back in eighteen ninety year,
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: what aver the hell wouldn't have been?
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 8: You know what?
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: I keep thinking about since they gave us every other section.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: But it's like criss cross someday.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 3: But that that is the genesis of the Unlawful Enclosures Act,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 3: was to address uh people, landowners and to tease trying
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: to strategically purchase and and block off other chunks.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: And it would be it would be fine if it
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: was just that federal thing deciding it. But then you
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: have states form and the states do things differently.
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 3: And I'm sure in a lot of cases too, you know,
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 3: like you grow up in counties where you're like, you
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 3: do not mess with with that landowner over there, like
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 3: everybody knows that.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: I guess my take on it. I guess the point
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to make about it. If this had just
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: been to settled again and again overtime, right, and it
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: had gone to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court's
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: like no corner crossing, I don't think I would. I
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: don't think I would have ever been in a situation
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: of sitting there looking about how to overturn that Supreme
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: Court decision right, just the way there are people always
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: plotting how to like overturn Supreme Court decisions. I just
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have been in that pot of people. I'd like, Oh,
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: it's just you know, it's just been decided. But in
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: learning that it hasn't been decided, it's unclear. And I've
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: put this, I've expressed this in interviews. It's like, if
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: they are going to argue about this, I just really
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: want the access side to have a really robust, clearly
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: articulated argument, because I know that I'm not worried about
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: that argument coming from the other side. It'll be funded,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: it'll be articulated very clearly, And it's like, if there's
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: arguing yet to be done, I'm interested in the argument.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: But I would never have caught on to, like, you
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. I would never caught on to
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: trying to.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 6: Upset something that had been If it was just always
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 6: a settled thing and you wanted to overturn.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: It, Yeah, it won't be like me and being mad
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: about four hundred square inches of Hunter's orange, I'd like
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: to overturn that. I would never have sought to overturn
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: this because it would have been how I would have
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: just accepted it as like that's just the way things
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: are by.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: You would have accepted it the same way you accept
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: a private property.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: Line I would never think. I would never be you know,
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: can they really do that? Right? I'm going to go
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: back to the beginning of time and find out if
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: they can really do that.
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 4: And and you know, I think that your all of
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 4: your reaction, you know, isn't this obvious? Is how I
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 4: felt when I first learned about this, and and I
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 4: pulled it up just because it's funny and it fits.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 4: That's how the Supreme Court, at least one justice thought
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 4: about it to one time. This case made this kind
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 4: of issue, made it all the way to the Supreme
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 4: Court called Leo Sheep and just Leo Sheep animal ye
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 4: Sheep being the animal Leo Sheep Company versus United States,
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 4: and so a thirdgood Marshall actually said during oral arguably yeah,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 4: he said he said this, He said this. Is it
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 4: not true if you look at the checkerboard, that it
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 4: would always be possible to stay on government land except
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 4: where you had to cross at corners. So is it
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 4: not possible that Congress you mentioned the widespread understanding that
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 4: people could go any place they wanted to in those
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 4: days without worrying about having somebody build a fence in
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 4: front of them. Is it not likely that Congress did
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 4: not dream that there would be any problem about cutting
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 4: across a corner every mile or so. Hmmm, that was
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 4: his question nineteen seventy nine, No, kidd, Yeah.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: Is that where this is headed? Supreme Court? Look, what's
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: the pathway? Was the legal pathway?
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so we suck the case to federal court. We
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 4: kept it in federal court. We won it in federal court.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 4: Now they're appealing to the Tenth Circuit. That's the next
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 4: part of the dance. The Tenth Circuit is the Federal
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 4: Court of Appeals that governs Wyoming in a few other spots.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 3: But now it goes beyond Justice Skalbdaal correct.
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so judgment.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: And I say that because when his opinions on the stays,
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 3: so when the motion for it for a stay was denied,
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 3: Justice that remained with Justice Scalvedall. Justice Scalvedell wrote his
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 3: opinion as to why he would deny the stay, and
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 3: in those opinions, there's a lot of things that I
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 3: took is like very very positive for a pro public
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 3: right to access public round standpoint.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: But now.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 3: I imagine those opinions will be considered by a higher court. Yes,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 3: but it won't be Justice Scalvedall. His opinion is on
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 3: paper right now, and he won't be the judge of
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 3: this again.
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 4: Correct, Yeah, that's that's right. So so Judge Scavdal issues
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 4: his decision down below everything that we've been talking about.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 4: He also says, I'm not going to stay that order.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna put it on pause, not put it
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 4: on ice. You guys can it's the law of the
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 4: land in Wyoming. For now, they appeal to the Tenth Circuit.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 4: The Tenth Circuit has a broader jurisdiction. They hear appeals
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 4: from Wyoming, but they also govern cases out of Oklahoma, Kansas,
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 4: New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and strangely the parts of Yellowstone
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 4: National Park that extend into Montana and Idaho. That's the
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 4: jurisdiction of the Tenth Circuit. They will review Judge Scavdaal's
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 4: decision and they will either affirm it, meaning yep, we're
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 4: good with it, they will reverse it, or they will
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 4: reverse it.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: In part, they'll review it without all you all in
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: the room.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 4: Well, we're gonna present arguments on paper, We're gonna probably
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 4: have oral argument in front of them to the review.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 4: Part of the review process and then they will reach
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 4: their decision without us in the room. Yeah, they will,
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 4: but there's.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: A possibility they could just look at it and be like,
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: there's no appeal.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 4: There are no no, no, there is an appeal. They're
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 4: gonna they're gonna make a decision one way or another,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 4: probably won't have that till next year sometime. And then
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 4: after that the losing party, whoever loses at that stage,
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 4: would have the opportunity to petition the Supreme Court to
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 4: take a look. Wow, so that's we're one step away.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 6: When you think about what you just said and that
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 6: this might go to the Supreme Court, You've been practicing
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 6: law for seven years.
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, in your wildest dreams, did you have any.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 6: Idea that you'd be involved in a case and case
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 6: so many people are interested in this, and like, I mean,
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 6: it's got to be just.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: Like a trip.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 4: I have always wanted to be an appellet lawyer, and
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 4: I when I was in law school, I was pretty nerdy.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 4: You can ask my wife. I used to go on
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 4: runs and listen to Supreme Court arguments on my headphones
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 4: and I I applied to be admitted to the Supreme
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 4: Court last summer. Yeah, because I was at a feeling
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 4: I've wanted a case to go and I've wanted to
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 4: do it for this kind of one of my goals.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 4: So no, this is what I want to do. So
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 4: I'm excited it's happening, and there's I'm excited that there's
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 4: the possibility it could happen. But I'm ready to do it,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 4: and as long as the guys will have me, I'll
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 4: keep doing it.
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: Very cool.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and your.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: Oh way to the Supreme Court. Can we come down
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: to record from the Supreme Court. But what do you
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: think Justice Roberts Steve can be?
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 3: Can you ask a question?
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: We get a couple more chairs here.
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: We didn't really get to the takeaway here at the
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: end of our talking points.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 3: Let's do it real quick. Oh take it over, Ke,
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, just before you move on and Steve, you
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 3: have a heart out in twenty minutes. I just want
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 3: to throw that out my ears.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: Saga you want is getting closer to conclusion.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: You want to talk about the takeaway at the end.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: It's pretty important.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: I think, Oh well, he just said that. I think
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: I'll read it flat out. It says what people should
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: know sufficiently. You can take this to task or agree
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: or whatever. Sufficiently careful, non damaging corner crossing in Wyoming
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: is legal under current Wyoming law due to Ironbar decision statewide.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: So that does that mean that does that mean that
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: there is zero legal risk of someone getting cited, hollered
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: at advised against by a law enforcement official corner crossing.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 4: When Brown versus Board of Education was decided, Okay, that
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 4: was the law and you probably remember the images. Yeah,
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 4: just because something gets issued as a decision and it
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 4: is the law, doesn't mean practically people are going to
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 4: agree with it or follow it, especially with something that's
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 4: contentious like this. And so what I'll say is this,
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 4: legally speaking, I would feel you got real, real strong
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 4: defense with that iron Bar case. And especially it's not
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 4: civil trespass, no way, absolutely not civil trespass, because that's
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 4: what iron Bar says. Criminal trespass is a little squishier deal,
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 4: and local county attorneys can kind of do. They have
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 4: a lot of discretion to bring cases even if it's
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 4: going to be hard for them to win. So, could
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 4: you get cited for criminal trespass? Yeah, you could get
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 4: cited for criminal trespass? Would you win on that case?
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 4: I would feel pretty good about your odds.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: That's the thing I wonder too, when I've been thinking
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: about this, is how many how much appetite right now?
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: How much appetite would even be to cite somebody knowing
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: the depths that you're waiting into.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: All I can say is that there have been at
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: least four or five current county and deputy county prosecutors
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: across the state of Wyoming that I have seen since
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: the decision came out who have all slapped me on
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: the back and congratulated me. That's what I was going
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: to ask you, like, did this like kind of reverberate
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: all the way across Wyoming? So like the landowners are
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: aware of it, County prosecutors are aware. Like everyone's kind
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: of aware that this is the deal now in Wyoming, or.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 4: Wyoming is a small town with long streets, right, people
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 4: know about this. Whether a prosecutor is going to be
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 4: willing to say, you know, I'll take the bull by
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 4: the horn and let's let's do it again, I mean,
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 4: there wasn't much appetite for that before. I doubt the
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 4: appetite has gone up for that, But it could happen.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 4: I mean, it could but like I said, I like
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 4: your odds.
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: Can I do it a nudendum for you hunters out
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: there and mushroom pickers and whatnot, This was a surveyed corner.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: M Okay, pay really close attention to the words sufficiently, careful,
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: non damaging corner crossing. This is a surveyed corner where
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: the exact location of this corner has been certified.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: Fences just the existence of fences do not necessarily denote
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: the location of property lines.
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 5: And I'd like to add to that, your on X
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 5: is unfortunately not going to be to the specifically agree
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 5: that you're that you're talking about.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 3: It's going to get you in the ballpark.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: But you need to pin. And this is not a
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, the app I use most in life, outside
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: of probably my text app is on X. I I
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: wouldn't want to live without on X. It is the
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: most valuable hunting tool digital hunting tool that I can
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: think of. But it doesn't show my property line where
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: it sits enough that you're putting. Think about what we're saying.
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: You're walking on a checkboard and you're placing your feet
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: so carefully that you're on the black and you never
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: touch the red. That is not what any digital mapping
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: app has never told you that it's delivering you that
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: level of accuracy.
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: Right, you could be three feet off and breaking the law.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 6: Well, and it's not just the app. I mean, it's
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 6: just the the techno. It's not like specific to on X.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 3: It's how much so, I mean, it's it's a very
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 3: requisition of your and the Justice Govdal's stay. At the end,
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 3: he says, I want to take this opportunity. The defendants
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 3: in this case peaceably crossed. Do you like how I'm plan?
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 3: Lawyer Ryan, I like you all right? Defendants peaceably crossed
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 3: from public land to public land in the checkerboard area
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 3: on foot, without touching the surface of any privately owned land,
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 3: and without damaging any private property. Those were the facts
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 3: presented to this Court for decision, and the Court stresses
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 3: here the importance of public land users accessing public land
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 3: and only public land in a law abiding, respectful manner.
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 3: A physical confrontation with the private landowner, which we could
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: get into instigated by a member of the public, may
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 3: prove to be the single surest way for plaintiff to
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 3: secure a stay pending appeal, because the likelihood of irreparable
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 3: harm would no longer be speculative at this point.
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 5: In this.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 3: Order to deny the stay. There's also language that that
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 3: just says, like it was crystal clear the intent of
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 3: the hunters was to move through this zone. So I've
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 3: certainly said in my podcast, if you were going to
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: attempt this act as if eyes are upon you, and
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 3: you locate the corner, and you move through that zone,
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 3: don't stop then dink around and pick shit up, for
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 3: God's sake, Just move through, clearly with the intent of
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 3: moving from one area of public into the next area
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 3: of public.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: The worst thing that could happen right now, if you're
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: an access proponent, the worst thing that could happen right
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: now is a bunch of people fill their middle finger
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: up in the air and start willing, nearly jumping over
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: fences corner fences. Yes, and in the in this judges order,
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: not where that's not where this sits right now. There.
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: If this becomes clarified, there will be My prediction is
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: there will be a lot of attention paid to strategically
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: locating important corners, and there's a way that this will
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: play out.
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 5: But this is how they got to raise some money
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 5: to get these pisiness.
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: Like you out arguing with you are arguing with with
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: landowners and ranchers about what you don't own those elk Yeah,
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: where their fence and it's just it's just not how
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: this needs to gop Do.
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 3: You need to read the opinion in the stay, because
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's very clear that all the things that
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 3: we've read in the paper and including a lot of
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 3: things that we covered here today which was very thorough,
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 3: there's still a lot of context that was thought about
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 3: from Justice Skobdal, some of which included like Steve was saying,
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: wave in your middle finger.
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 3: It alludes to the fact that there were calls to
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 3: Iron Bar Holdings and some some veiled threats and probably
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 3: just some some fuck us. But that actually made it
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 3: into the justice's opinion, So you.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: Gotta he didn't ignore that, did not.
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 3: Ignore that, took it into consideration because Iron Bar's counsel
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 3: brought those points up, because you know that would be
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: an issue to order a stay of opinion, is if
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 3: it was thought by the judge that there were going
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 3: to be some physical ramifications that could hurt somebody if
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 3: the stay wasn't issued. Kind of kind of crappy, but
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 3: more or less right there, Ryan, Well.
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: No, I think that. I think that just just just
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: so people know, because if I was listening to this,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: you know, while I was trying to work on something
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: by garage, I might have missed this. But stay is
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: when the decision gets made, but they know it's gonna
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: be appealed, so they they basically come in and say,
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: here's my decision, but we're gonna stay on like nothing.
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: I'm not changing anything yet because I'm gonna wait for
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: the appeals process to play out. So we're not gonna
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: act on what I've decided, but that's my decision, and
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: then we're gonna wait down the road. For greater clarity,
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: Is that is that a fair way of describing a stay.
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 4: It's a fair way of describing it. Just also to
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 4: be clear the note the stay was denied.
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: But I'm saying if everybody was out there having fistfights
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: and stuffly you might be like, you know what, okay,
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: never mind, everybody, stop, the stay is in place. This
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: is getting out of hand. We're gonna, you know, yeah,
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: it down the road.
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 4: And and and and to to just echo everything you
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 4: guys have been saying, you gotta find the survey stake.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 4: You've got to physically find it with your eyes and
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 4: and you've got to cross it carefully. Use use you
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 4: can use on X or a compass to help direction
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 4: yourself and orient your sottle orient for sure. Yeah, but
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 4: you but but you can't rely on it, like you're
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 4: saying to your footfalls, you got to use your eyeballs
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 4: and direct yourself.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: Is there a process, like if you can't find that marker,
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 2: is there a process to request like a survey or, Like,
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: let's say I identify a corner where I can access
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 2: whatever a few thousand acres of public land, but I
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 2: can't like identify clearly where exactly that corner is. Like
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 2: can you contact a federal agency and say it's not there,
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 2: I can't find.
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 4: Like yeah, so you you may be able to contact
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 4: your BLM field office and notify them of that particular
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 4: section corner missing it's survey steak because because that has
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 4: to be a thing. Oh, it happens, for sure, because
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 4: because you know, the old survey steaks were dinosaur bones
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 4: or whatever they found in the field, and they would
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 4: just pone it and they just pount it into the
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 4: ground and now they are these like uniforms, you know,
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 4: stainless steel or whatever. They are called monument Every now
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 4: and then you trip on the verb is the verb
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 4: is monumenting because because in the even if it's wrong,
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 4: you talk about a lot of people's property lines are wrong.
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 4: But the way the law works with those survey steaks,
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 4: the survey steak is always perfect in the law does
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 4: not matter even if it is wrong. The survey steak
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 4: is monumented. It is correct. It is always correct. So yeah,
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 4: you should notify feel on field office and maybe they
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 4: can get a resurveyed or something like that.
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: You know, you know, when you hear the term down
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 1: to brass tacks, you want to know what my understanding
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: of that is? Caps right there is yeah that if
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 1: you wanted to get really a survey buddy told me
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 1: it's I never fact checked him on it. On top
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 1: of that, there's like a brass plate and that's basically it.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: But since these corners are infinitely small, the lines are
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: infinitely small. To get down to brass tax is there's
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: like a circle and within that you can place a
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 1: clarifying pin. You can place a tack into that. If
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: for greater clarification around that. Whatever the hell one inner
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: and inch circles. I don't know.
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 3: It may be true, some people say people are saying
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 3: people are or I have found those things. I mean,
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 3: that would have been a hell of a job. I've
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 3: found those things in the most bizarre places and have
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 3: always taken a picture of them. But then I always
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 3: get around to thinking, like, you don't want to show
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 3: that off happens to say, exactly where you were.
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 10: We found one in Alaska recently, and I could not
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 10: picture the person who'd like gotten there and then figured
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 10: that out and drove that into ground.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: Right. Oh yeah, they had been thinking like who.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, because there are just obvious places where even
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 3: you know, one hundred years ago, one hundred and fifty
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 3: years ago, were you have this mindset of like, oh, yeah,
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 3: the tax base is coming, this is all going to
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 3: be home.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: Standd.
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 3: There are plenty of places where you are standing you're like,
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 3: not this place.
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it, get it, I get it. No
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 1: one is ever gonna come look for this. This is
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: never gonna wind up being a thing where people are
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: standing here.
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 4: Arguing little did they know?
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: All right, well thanks for coming on, man, Yeah, absolutely,
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: can you come back when something happens.
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 4: Happy to do it.
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 3: Oh and what what a timeline?
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: So I go down to the Supreme Court with you?
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 4: You can yeah? There there's you gotta get in line.
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 4: There's public seating, and there's limited.
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: Right up there with you.
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 4: What I can do?
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 3: I got an ear thing, So I gotta timeline one
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 3: more time.
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So the the deadlines for some of the
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 4: appeal has been extended a little bit for various reasons.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 4: So we expect the very first volley of argument will
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 4: come out next month from them. From them, they will
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 4: filew the first brief, UH should be November sixth. Then
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 4: we will file an answering brief, either sometime in December
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 4: or later, depending on if we need more time. Then
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 4: they will get one more crack at responding to our brief,
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 4: and then it'll be up to the Tenth Circuit to
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 4: set argument and make a decision. I would expect a
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 4: decision one way or another sometime late spring or summer
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 4: of next year, if not later.
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: If I was the listing agent or the whatever or
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: the lawyer who put that deal together, I would be sweating.
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: I would be sweating. Yeah, to be like, at some
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: point someone's gonna have a question for me.
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of real estate agents around
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: the country.
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 4: I was looking at a little bit.
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 6: I mean I saw a property listing the other day
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 6: that probably has a brilliant where you're like that mentioned
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 6: exclusive access to public lands that didn't have access. I mean,
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 6: it's like when you start looking for it.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, there's there's one up by us, and
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 3: it's like part of the benefit of our h o A,
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 3: which is another evil, freaking entity that I would love
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 3: to see burn.
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 4: On the ground.
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 1: I had no idea. I will never make that mistake, man.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's one in Anus. It's like part of
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 3: the benefit of our h o A is exclusive access
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 3: to everyone's public ground. I just want to go in
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 3: there and I want to buy a lot, and I
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 3: want to be like, bring on the lawsuits, your sons
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 3: of bitches, all right.
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, man. So in the meantime you
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: probably have to do all this stuff too, right, You
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: got other clients, absolutely, Yeah, once you plug your law firm.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: Uh Fuller and Sammarad we're in Casper. Uh gifts call
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: three h seven. So what kind of trouble, what kind
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: of trouble. Are you looking for down there?
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 4: Anything? I mean?
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: I I like divorce.
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 4: I like to fight.
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 3: I don't like to stop ass kickings.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 4: I do trucks stop ass kickings.
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 3: Were joking a chaser?
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 4: No, I try to avoid that too. I just I
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 4: like to fight.
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: So what's your favorite? What's what's the best call you
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 1: can get?
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 4: Defense of any kind? I like doing those, like helping
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 4: criminals out. Do you? I like helping people steel.
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 3: You're joking on the way over that. There's still plenty
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: of rural Wyoming that is not dissimilar from rural eastern Montana,
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 3: where people are likely to come in the door and
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 3: be like, you know that drinking and driving thing. They're
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 3: actually serious about it.
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 5: Do you ever do that kind of work?
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 9: Oh?
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, get a lot of that. Got a trial
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 4: coming up from cody in November, so I'll be off
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 4: doing that.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: And you do child custody.
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 4: I try to avoid it, have done it, but I
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 4: try to avoid it. I don't like that stuff. Yep,
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 4: that's not as much fun.
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: So how far what's your range? How far do you go?
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 4: I do the whole state of Wyoming, but I'm barred
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 4: in Nevada and Ohio too, but I'm inactive in those
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 4: states because I don't really practice there anymore. So if
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 4: you if your law dog and it's in Wyoming, yep, Wyoming,
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 4: that's where it's.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 3: At, you're gonna get just raked over the coals by
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 3: not using the a your for your alma longer.
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 4: You know that the Ohio state, Yeah, I know, I know.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know about I don't understand this, but I
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: don't have tos. I never get my continues to be
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 1: a problem.
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 9: Oh all.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 8: Right on, all the seal gray shine like silver in
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 8: the sun.
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: Right right along.
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 11: Sweetheart, were done beat this damn horse to death.
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 5: Taking a new one. Ride.
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 11: We're done beat this damn horse today, So take a
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 11: new one and ride on.