Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / Why Treating Clients Like People, Not Cases, Generates More Referrals with Robert Hartmann
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing, where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional bullshit detector for attorneys and professional advisors who are tired of doing what everyone else does. And if you listen to this and think, ⁓ my god, I need help with this, my next group coaching cohort opens May 4th. Check the show notes for the details. So around here, we skip the fluff. Real conversations, real insights, and yeah, probably a few f-bombs along the way. So let's get into this. Making it rain. That is what we're going to be discussing in this episode of Un-Fuck Your Legal Marketing. My guest today is the author of Making It Rain, The Art of Building a Successful Law Practice, Bob Hartman. who is a certified criminal specialist with nearly four decades. Yes. I said decades of experience and more than 200 freaking jury trials to verdict. He is all about reputation and trust when it comes to building your practice. Bob has built a fantastic practice representing clients in some of the most high stakes moments of their lives. And what makes his perspective especially interesting is how much his success comes down to mindset, particularly empathy for clients and referral sources and how that ultimately drives referrals and long-term growth, which is rainmaking. So Bob, welcome to unfuck your legal marketing. Gary, it's my pleasure to be here. Love the name. Love the name. Thank you. Thank you. I knew you would because it's right up your alley. So, um, all right, so let's get into this. So like I said, in my intro, you've tried over 200 cases to jury verdict, which in and of itself is extraordinary. How did that level of trial experience shape the way that you actually think about building your practice? not to make it a long answer, when you try a case, you become extremely close to your client. You were working 24 hours a day on their case. The case could go a week or two. You're with them 24 hours a day. Their life is in your hand, going to jail, their family, their license. It's all in your hands. So you get to know them really well. And what I mean by that, Gary, is that you get to understand what's important to them. So over the years, what I have figured out, knocking my through my head a bunch of times is what clients care about. almost as much as results is how we treat them. And you would be astonished at the number of people who have told me, know, Bob, I love the result you got me. It's almost perfect. Not perfect, but you almost got me the perfect result. I'm not going to jail. It's great. But you know what I really liked? I liked how you were there for me. I liked how you cared about me. I like how you took my phone calls. I like how you responded to my emails. I like how you didn't brush me off. When I had what I was kind of a silly question for you. So Gary, think the answer to your question is I became so close to these clients. I really feel like I learned what's important to them. And really what I learned is being a counselor, being someone they can count on and depend and not like some of the lawyers who don't do a good job at that. frankly. Yeah. I think that. We could end this podcast right now just from that nugget, because that is such an important element in marketing is how we are treating our clients. What's the experience that they get because they're going to talk about you. They're going to refer you business. They're going to tell other people about you that could also refer you business. And that is your reputation and your credibility. I you've done so many cases because people trust you, know, but, really honing in on that experience. Fucking brilliant. I mean, it really is brilliant. And I love that. I love how you just started out that way because I can't tell you how many people are like, I don't do any marketing. Like, don't you work with clients? Yeah. That's marketing. Always marketing. We're marketing every minute of the day. Every minute of the day. So, you know, it's not only marketing to the client. It's always marketing to the referral source. It's what you said earlier. What you just said, Gary, is that they're talking about you. Your clients are talking about you. So let's say I'm in court and I stand up to pick a jury. We're picking a jury and I'm conferring with the client about who they like, who they don't like. want to be on the jury. And I go, you know what? I'm going to disregard your wishes. I'm going to take juror a blah, blah, blah, blah. What do you think the client's going to tell the referral source? Wow. didn't listen to me. What do you think is so so you always have to keep in the back of your mind that your referral source is everything and what is your client going to tell your referral source about what you did about how you acted about how you treated them. It's okay. Hey, you know, I'm not going to take your aid because I think sure be is better rather than you know what I'm just picking be and I don't need to explain it to you. That's the difference and that's what not every lawyer is really good at. Yet at the end of the day, that is carrying a great deal about your referral source. If that makes sense. It totally does because it's not just the client. You're thinking of the bigger picture with the referral sources because as we know, it's the hardest thing is the first referral. After that, it gets easier. But if you, if you fuck the first referral up, you're you're going to be a hundred percent successful in never getting a referral from that person again. matter how good a lawyer you are, no matter how good you are. Okay. So let's, let's pull that thread a little bit because you had brought up where your client is like, I want your number two and you're like, it's not, you're dealing with very, the most charged situation that's out there. Is this somebody's life? They could go to prison for life. They could get, you know, their reputation, they're going to lose a lot of money, they can lose their family. There's a lot on the line with your clients. I would probably say more than any other attorney that's out there, maybe ⁓ &A because it's a very high dollar amount, but still this is somebody's physical and emotional thing that you are dealing with because physically they can be incarcerated. So how do you... How do you play the dance of, want to make sure that my client feels heard. And at the same time, I need to be advocating for my client, even though they're like, no, I want it done this way. And you're like, that's going to lead to disaster. How do you like balance that out to listen to what they say, but still doing something differently, but still keeping that experience of. I feel heard. He's representing me correctly, even though he might not be doing what I want him to be doing because they don't know that system. No. So it's something I talk about in my book, Gary. It's all about trust. know, before a trial happens, person is usually your client for a year or two. And so you need to build trust up over that period of time because you know what? We're the captain of the ship. The client is the passenger. They don't know how to steer the ship. They don't know how to drop anchor. They don't know how to call on the radio. They don't have to do any of that. We do. So when you're a passenger on a boat, you have to trust the captain. So at the end of the day, things like when I get police reports, when I get videos, when I get lab reports, when I have conversations with the prosecutor or the judge, I talk about all of this stuff with my client all the time while I'm representing them. Now, it may not always be great things the client wants to hear, but I am being open and honest with them and that develops trust. The other thing, Gary, is that even though the case may be going to trial, we're doing things to mitigate what happened. So if there's a conviction, they're going to get a better result and we're doing things to show the client we care about them. For example, Let's say you have a case of domestic violence. A very common strategy I would use is whether or not the client's been convicted, no matter how the evidence looks, I'm going to start the client on a 52 week anger management class while the case is pending. Now, I'm not going to wait for the judge to order it. We're going to have the client enroll voluntarily in the program. You know why? Because that sends a great message to the judge and the DA that this client really cares. about what happened and is not gonna let it happen again. And it's not evidence of guilt. And when you do these things, when you've shared all this information with the client, the client understands why we're making certain tactical strategic decisions. So when it comes to trial, you have all this goodwill and all this trust that's been built up over months and months and months, and they trust you. When you show the client you... care about them, you care about their health, you care about their mental health, you care about their substance abuse disorder, you care about their family not breaking up, you care about protecting their professional license, they trust you. And so when it comes to saying, you know what, think Jur B, I just got a good intuition about Jur B. Jur A said something to me and they looked at you in a certain way when they walked in the courtroom and ⁓ I didn't like that. I love that. In your book, speaking of, you have a full chapter on empathy. Because it is the cornerstone of any attorney's relationship with a client and a referral source. So the client in any kind of criminal case, it's the scariest thing the client's ever been through in their life, right? I mean, they could go to jail. It's like you said, they could lose their license. They could lose their family, whatever. In any kind of law. Being involved in a lawsuit is scary. The judge is scary. The system is scary. They don't really get it. Client goes into the courtroom and they're just hoping to God the judge doesn't yell at their lawyer, right? So these people are going through a time in their life that is horrendously difficult. That's why they're paying you the big bucks. And so I think, at least in my point of view, lawyers have an obligation to reduce a client's stress. and their anxiety. It's a service that we can perform for a client that costs no money, takes very little time, yet helps get a client through a very difficult situation. So what are things, what is empathy? It's returning phone calls promptly. When you get them on the phone, it's not getting them off the phone. It's letting them talk and get out whatever they need to get out. It's responding to emails. It's when they text you and you're in court, not waiting till five o'clock to respond to the text, send them a text saying I'm in court, I'll get back to you as quickly as I can. And guess what's the side benefit of that? They report all of that to the referral source. And when they say to the referral source, you know what? Bob is always there, the referral source loves it. I'll tell you another funny story, Gary, true story. One time I had a client get convicted, I it was like an assault and battery misdemeanor, not a big deal. And I had a great relationship with the client. a difficult case. Client gets convicted. Client gets no jail time, but he gets convicted. And client comes up to me after the trial's over and he says, you know, he goes, I almost don't care. I enjoyed working with you so much. And I know how much you cared about the result. I know how much you helped me. I know how much you were there for me when I couldn't sleep the night before the jury was going to come back. I know all the things you did. So. I care about the result, but I just so want you to know how much I appreciate you. And I'm going to make sure to tell so-and-so who referred it over. And when you hear something like that, after the verdict wasn't maybe the best, that's something else and that's reinforcing obviously. So empathy shows its way with how you deal with clients, but also how you deal with referral sources, keeping them in the loop a little bit as much as ethically you can. letting them know this is how it's going because they know their name is on the line when they refer to you. it really is. You know, speaking of reputations in the legal community, you you talk about judges, you talk about prosecutors, but how important is it to have a great reputations in the legal community to build a strong practice? Yeah, that's such a good question, Gary. And again, we talk about this a lot in the book. Your reputation is everything. My clients are in trouble. And a lot of times they did it. And the evidence is pretty strong. They did it. Allegedly. Well, well, it's allegedly, but there might be some witnesses. Not even allegedly. There's a video. But so, so, know, so the question becomes, you know, what do you, what do I do for someone when there are six witnesses who said he shot the gun at so-and-so? Yeah. answer is we provide mitigation. We provide mitigating information about the client, whatever that may be. The key to making mitigation work is the judge and the prosecutor believe the lawyer. They trust the lawyer. They know the lawyer isn't pulling this stuff out of nowhere, but that it's sincere, it's true, and it's verifiable. Lawyers who have a reputation of caring for their clients, of litigating hard, but honestly and ethically and fairly and not saying stupid things about a prosecutor or judge. When you do that, nine times out of 10, you're gonna get a better result just because you did those things than if you didn't do those things. I'll give you an example, okay? I did a case in New York City in Manhattan, a federal case, a couple years ago. And it was a horrible case. It was just a horrible case. was a regarding cryptocurrency and people using that to import drugs and firearms and do a bunch of horrible things. So here I am with a federal prosecutor in Manhattan. Now I know the attorney's office really well, and I know they did research on me before, you know, I made my first court appearance. Yeah. So at my first court appearance, I went out of my way to be friendly to the prosecutor. not to have an adversarial relationship with them, but to introduce myself, say, is where I'm from, nice to meet you, it's great to be out here, look forward to working with you in your office. And just those few words right there gets us off to a good start. And then as we're going through the case, they're providing their discovery, police reports and things to me, I'm giving them what we need to give them. And we're having nice conversations, nice conversations, we're, you da-da-da-da-da. And I developed such a good relationship with this prosecutor. My client ended up getting a ridiculously good result. And I don't want to say it's just because we're nice to people. We litigate hard. We file the right motions. We file mitigation briefs, but prosecutors and judges have choices. They don't always have to do things. And when you give them a choice, if you come across as a lawyer representing someone who may be a flawed individual, but not hopeless. You get better results. And that is always what I've done. did you learn that though? Because like I see this as being me just fully ignorant. So don't judge, but you watch on TV, the two, two attorneys that are in court are battling it and are like, you're a piece of crap. Who do you think you are? And it's, and it's, I see it as an intimidation factor. And we're going to intimidate them. We're going to beat them down. da da da da. Yours is fully the opposite where you aren't adversarial. You're collaborative to try and get the best results. Let's work together with respect for each other. Where did you learn that? Like, did you make a mistake where you're like, you came at somebody and it was like, Oh shit, that didn't work so well, you know, or was just. This is how you always have done it and it's always worked out very well for you. Yeah. That's a great question. Where did I learn that? I want to say that I kind of figured it out on my own. When I was a younger lawyer, I thought it was important to get in there and put on a show for the client. Right. Yeah. Right. You know, Mr. DA, you haven't given us this judge, you should sanction them for that. But you know what's really funny about the law, Gary, is that nine times out of 10. If the two lawyers work collaboratively, they get a better result for the client. So for example, in criminal cases, if I want a felony reduced to a misdemeanor, generally I need the prosecutor to go along with that. Got it. If I want to get a guy who might be looking at six months mandatory in jail for some types of crimes, but to get them out of that, I need the DA to file a different charge. Well, do you think I'm going to get that if I'm screaming and yelling at the DA? No. It's like dating. It's just not going to work out the right way. So, and again, I have a kind of a story about that. You know, I remember once, and it's in my book, there's this client comes up to me and he goes, Bob, I appreciate what you're doing for me, but God, I wish you'd be more aggressive with the prosecutor. Every time I see you when you're just agreeing with them, you need to be my advocate for me. And I just said, you know, I just said, let me ask you, do you think I'm going to get the prosecutor in your case to dismiss an arson charge? which carries a certain really serious prison sentence to put you on something a little bit less serious so we can keep you out of jail. You want me to do that, right? Right. Well, do you think the prosecutor is going to do that if I'm screaming at them? And he goes, duh, I didn't even think about it that way. You know, and it was interesting for me was that was not the epiphany, but I, it was epiphany in a way because it taught me to anticipate that clients might think that way. Yeah. So what I do is, you know, when I onboard people and when I talk to people, I say, I'm not like every other lawyer. You know, if you want to see public demonstrations of yelling and screaming, I'm not your guy. Now, I will say this, Gary, I mean, for me in my career, almost 40 years, 88 % of prosecutors are very ethical. There's no need to get in their face ever for anything. They're just doing their jobs. There have been instances where I've had prosecutors who hit the ball and then it's not screaming and yelling at them, but then it's just more like saying certain things in motions to a judge, bringing certain things to the judge's attention. And so that can be rectified, but it's never a thing where it gets combative because it reduces my credibility with the judge. I handle it, you if I see something that prosecutor does, that's a little bit unethically. They didn't disclose certain information they're required to. I just tell the judge about it in a very professional way. The judge gets on them a little bit and some DAs will be appreciative that you didn't call them out in public. are some instances where if a DA doesn't disclose stuff, it's a misdemeanor. Criminal problem for the DA. they don't... And so prosecutors really appreciate it if it's an inadvertent thing. Anyway, so the point is you don't always need to be like that. And again, It all goes into how does the client, how's the client experience. You go into court and if the client sees the judge treating your lawyer like a professional with respect and that's the way they treat you, the client feels so much better about what their results gonna be. And it sounds as though you set those expectations early on with your client. This is what we're going to be doing, you know, which, you know, I don't understand how people utilize being a bully or being bad mouthing people to get what they want. Because one, it's very manipulative and is very short, you know, very short-sighted. You know, back in the day, I used to negotiate for cars. Everybody hates buying cars. I used to love buying cars. I love it. Yeah. ⁓ And people would say, what is your best negotiating tactic? I said, it's very easy. Be very likable, very likable. Because if I came, let's say you were trying to sell me a car. I came in and I'm like, Hey, I want this, you know, I want a Mercedes S know, 550, know, and then they're like, okay, it's going to be $125,000. We got a great lease on it. It's $2,500 a month. You know what, Bob? I really appreciate you showing me that. Unfortunately, my budget is only, you know, 1600, you know, but I just want to say thank you. And that's it. And then they go, well, you know, let me see if I can get it lower. Right. But the whole thing is that salesperson, what do they do? They go back to the manager, the sales manager and try and negotiate for you on your behalf. If somebody is trying to negotiate on your behalf, do you think that they're going to go to bat for somebody who is a cost of? Or do you think that they're going to go with somebody who is agreeable and it's like, Hey, I get it. I'm asking too much. I would always say that I'm asking too much. get it. I'm going to apologize right now. I'm asking too much. And I know you can't do that. And I just, appreciate your time. Start walking, start walking because then they tell you whether you really are asking too much or not because of the like, all right, come back, come back. think we can get a deal. And then you start to negotiate, but it's always in a very nice manner. Very similar. to how you are with prosecutors. But I like how you tie that back to this helps you get more business in the future because then you can get referrals from other attorneys that one can hear about it because you guys are a small community, a tight community, talk about people's reputation. But it also, quite frankly, is a much better way of doing business. Treat people well. What the fuck are we doing if we're not doing that? It's like, why are you... And I also think in the legal world, there's this misnomer that all attorneys are assholes. Correct. And the reason I think this is my own viewpoint of working with hundreds of attorneys for over a decade is the fact that we think of the person who is across the table, who is coming at me, who is being a lawyer for opposing counsel that is coming at us. Right. And so we're like, they're asking. questions, the same fucking question 20 different times. This is ridiculous. But they never think about the attorney who is sitting next to them that's advocating for them that says, you don't have to answer that question. We're going to do that this way. We're going to strategically da da da da da. Let's make sure that we have this in the contract. Let's make sure that we have these as our witnesses, whatever it is, right? That all comes together as being collaborative as opposed to adversarial. And I find that in other practices where you are dealing with another attorney that's on the other side, I have so many clients that say I get so much in referrals from opposing counsels. they did it in a respectful way. They were nice, they were empathetic and they were fair. They weren't just like pounding on the table. This is the way we need to do it. They're like, this guy's an asshole. I would never refer him business as opposed to I'm to. know, I've been fortunate enough, Gary, to get referrals from prosecutors, from judges and huge too, you know, and yeah, in terms of a stroke to the ego, that's fantastic, you know, because they could refer to anybody, names, whoever, right? And, and what they do though, is they refer people they care about. to people they know who are gonna be effective and everything you just said makes one effective. And what a client is paying me for is not a road show. It's not a public display of how loud I can yell. It's for an effective, well thought out result. And you just laid it out perfectly. That's exactly right. And that's why this is a better way to handle clients. Much better and such a better way in regards to legal marketing too. yeah. So, yeah. So over, mean, you've been doing this for how long? Over four decades, right? 1987. I was still in high school. You're like, yourself. What do you think truly separates lawyers who build an enduring practice? from those who are really struggling. Wow, there's so many pieces of that, Gary. I think the part about enduring is number one, treating clients well, because that's what gets back to the referral sources. Number two is treating referral sources great. So what does that mean? I maintain a list of 80 or 90 attorneys and other people who are constant referral sources. I make a point. to touch them appropriately. Thank you. You said that like I was about to jump into that going toward it. I do. touch them once a quarter or so, whether it's a text message, how's everybody, whether it's an email, whether it's a card, whatever it is, right? I make a point of touching them once every quarter just so we stay top of mind. So when you talk about endurance, this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon, right? And so at the end of the day, best way to succeed is to do a great job with clients because then you'll do a great job with referral sources. And then the other thing is to always be marketing. Always. It's not for me, it's not ABC. It's always, it's not always be closing. It's always be marketing, right? Everything I do every time I go to a networking meeting, every event I go to, I go to a friend's daughter's wedding. It's always thinking about marketing. You know, and it's not just about me, Gary. Part of it is you can't be selfish, right? One of the things I'm proudest about is through different networking organizations I belong to, I have the most amazing Rolodex ever. Okay. Anybody with any kind of problem, I can generally point them to the right person. So when I think it's really important for everybody to know that, you know, other lawyers will send me a text and go, Bob. Do know somebody who can handle an immigration problem or whatever it may be, right? And when you can have that kind of relationship with people out there in the world, you're creating new referral sources, you're demonstrating empathy for them. It's not about you, it's about them getting them help, taking a little bit of your time to help them. And it's just such a wonderful way to practice. So for me, I think kind of all those things altogether create endurance. I will say one other thing, Gary, what destroys long-term endurance, what destroys 40 years of a practice is doing something stupid. So for example, you know, there were some attorneys recently who were in the news about doing stuff with AI and just giving it to judges. It just destroys your reputation instantly. Lying, hiding the ball, not being truthful with the judge or a prosecutor. In the book, I tell a story, in my book, True Story. My daughter is a first year associate and the very first day we're together, she's going to get sworn in by a judge and the judge is in the middle of a trial. So we sit in audience and we were watching the trial. And this lawyer, this lawyer just, she has a question, the judge says no, objection sustained. You can't ask that question. She asks it again. So now the judge goes, no, no, I said sustained. And so that was a little weird. And then the judge and the lawyer start. arguing about this objection. And the judge then says, Hey, would you put something up on the board? And the lawyer goes, no. I'm like, wow. And then I turned to my daughter and I said, watch what the jury does now. As soon as the lawyer starts arguing with the judge, what's what the jury does. And sure enough, they start pushing back in their seats. They start turning their heads. They start putting their heads down. They completely disengaged with that attorney. arguing with the judge, they respect the judge, they don't give a rat's ass about the lawyer. Yeah. And she completely lost everything in that one moment. And if that lawyer thinks it's only going to affect that trial, they're really wrong about that. It's going to affect their whole reputation in the legal community because this happened in front of a judge and it was just so silly and it probably cost their side the win. ⁓ my God. learning experience. Totally is, you know, and, you know, I love what you're saying because especially in your book, you've got so much wisdom that you are giving people from all of your experiences. And I love your stories in there too. And it really shows that this is over a long, like you had said, it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. need to look at it that way so that you can have an enduring practice as opposed to transaction, transaction, transaction. It's so difficult to just transaction, transaction, because you're always starting over as opposed to building the trust, building those relationships. anybody who's listening to this, Bob and I are in a networking group and people sing Bob's praises all the time. Like you were saying that when you take care of other people, when you give to other people, they give to you. And people are always like, Bob this and Bob this and Bob this. I love seeing that because you're doing it. You're actually doing the shit that you say that you do in your book. Again, that goes back to don't lie, do the right things. You did that in your book. It's authentically you, right? Brilliantly written. But it really is because it's practical. It's not this way off theories and, you know, I need a PhD in order to actually implement this stuff. It's practical. It's common sense. It's not easy to do. It's simple, but it's not easy because you need to consistently do it again and again. And when you get shit thrown at you, like you do on a regular basis, where all of a it's a murder charge and you're like, there's high stakes involved. Sometimes we want to like cut an edge, do something dumb, do this. Maybe I can get away with this instead of going, no, I'm going to treat my client extremely well. I'm going to be very likable. I'm going to treat my The prosecutor well, I'm going to treat the judge well, the jury well, and also my referral source well. You think of it, those are five really important elements to your business and to your success that you consciously think about it. Not only you consciously think about it, but you're like, want to share this with everybody. Let me put this in a book so that people can be better rainmakers. I think is brilliant. really appreciate it. let me tell you one other thing I would add, Gary, is that I do take a lot of pride on being a good lawyer and it's really funny how, how your career turns out. Right. When I began, I had no interest in this. I wanted to be a trial lawyer. wanted to be the best trial lawyer I could be. That's just what I love doing. And to this day, doing a closing argument is the best thing I could ever do. Right. It's the greatest, right. But you know, everything I'm saying is premised on doing a good job for the client too. Meaning you have to stay up on continuing education. You have to know the law. You have to understand and have experience. You know, your County may have a rule that allows you to get your client a better result. Maybe this other County has a different thing. You got to go a different way. And so you really do have to be on top of that because at the end of the day, you have to do a good job and work this all together. So true. So true. Bob, thank you. This has been incredible. mean, from starting out with it's important to understand what your client wants to what's the experience that they are actually having with you, building trust, using empathy. Like that's like a superpower in and of itself. Being open and honest. Don't do stupid stuff. Do the common sense stuff. Treat others with respect. be friendly. It's a marathon, not a sprint. ⁓ my God. This is like treasure, treasure trove. thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you, Gary. And, and if somebody wants to purchase your make it rain, the art of building a successful law practice, where can they find your book? I believe the easiest way to get it is on Amazon. You just type in making it rain Hartman and it'll lead you there. Okay. Fantastic. By the way. How many pages is it? you remember? 212. I think it's 212. A bunch of pictures, right? I'm kidding. Well, you know, it's really funny, Gary. It's really funny because in Word, in Word, it's 97 pages. In book format, it's 212 pages. I didn't expect that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And if you do want to get a hold of Bob, I'm going to put in all of his contact information, his LinkedIn profile in the notes, because you're not going to remember it, but buy his book. book is amazing. I personally have read it. It is unbelievable. And thank you, Bob, for spending your time on this. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate our relationship and you're always giving. You're always freaking giving, you know? And I thank you. Gary. And again, thank you, Gary, for writing the forward to the book. appreciate Yeah, that's a little it. All right. That's nothing. But thank you for coming on. And I hope to have you on again. All right. That'd be great. Good to see you. You've got so many good nuggets. So thank you again. That's it for today's episode of Un-Fuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration, learned something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me, and remember, the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.