Latest / Political Junkie Podcast / Passing the Buck

Transcript

Passing the Buck · Political Junkie Podcast

• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And before I start,
• 0:27
  I want to tell you that I've never seen people so happy in our
• 0:32
  country because of
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: because so many different groups of people are being taken care of,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: the military,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: civilians of all types,
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: jobs of all types.
• 0:42
  We're adding things like the biggest tax cut in the history of
• 0:47
  our country,
• 0:48
  child tax credits.
• 0:50
  So many things are being added that we wouldn't even have time
• 0:53
  to discuss them.
• 0:56
  But,
• 0:56
  you know,
• 0:56
  it was supposed to be in three,
• 0:58
  four,
• 0:59
  five,
• 0:59
  six,
• 1:00
  or seven different bills.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was on one of the fake news shows,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: and I said,
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: let's do it in one beautiful,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: big,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: one beautiful — we want one big,
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: beautiful bill.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: I said that to this newscaster,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: and I think a lot of the congressmen and senators were watching,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: and they said,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: let's name the bill that — the one big,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: beautiful bill.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And actually,
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I liked it because we had so much in there that no matter who you are,
• 1:26
  there was something in that bill that would make your
• 1:28
  congressman or your senator
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: or your congresswoman,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: much more importantly,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: raise their hand and support.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right, Lisa?
• 1:36
  That was Donald Trump talking about his big,
• 1:39
  beautiful,
• 1:40
  but ugly bill on July 4th.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Claire Potter.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Neil J. Young.
• 1:47
  And we're here to talk to you about the circumstances of the
• 1:51
  Big Beautiful Bill and
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: all the conversation about it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: But first,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'd actually like to throw in a plea to listeners,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: which is I learned today via Jake Shane,
• 2:02
  who's this wonderful young comedian who's on Instagram and just
• 2:06
  had a big national
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: tour,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: that the Trevor Project,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: which is an LGBTQ...
• 2:10
  Suicide Prevention Project that is entirely staffed with
• 2:14
  volunteers is losing its
• 2:16
  federal funding on July 17th because the Trump administration
• 2:20
  is defunding
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: anything that has to do with queer people.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: So on our notes today,
• 2:28
  we are going to have a button that you can click to give money
• 2:32
  to the Trevor
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Project.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: I have already given today.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm asking listeners to be generous.
• 2:37
  This is a really great project that helps queer kids survive
• 2:41
  what can be a very
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: difficult time in their lives before they go on to being
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: awesome and amazing adults.
• 2:49
  And the other offer I would like to offer you listeners is if
• 2:51
  you sign up as a paid
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: subscriber through the end of July,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: I will donate the entire sum of your
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: $50 annual fee to the Trevor Project.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 3:05
  So anybody who signs up as an annual subscriber for $50 by the
• 3:10
  end of July,
• 3:11
  all that money will go to the Trevor Project and you'll get
• 3:14
  Political Junkie too.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Neil, are you familiar with the Trevor Project?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 3:20
  that organization I think is very well known and very beloved
• 3:23
  in the LGBTQ
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: community,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: has a long,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: important history and
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: as you just said,
• 3:31
  the Trump administration is doing everything I can to erase
• 3:35
  LGBTQ persons from this
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: country.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: But what is sort of,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: just stark example of that to defund a suicide prevention hotline and an
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: organization that works in many ways to keep LGBTQ people,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: youth safe and protected when they're vulnerable in so many ways.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: part of what's ironic,
• 4:01
  and we're gonna be talking about this a little later in the
• 4:04
  show when we talk about
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: the bill,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: is in fact,
• 4:06
  all kinds of mental health services are going to be defunded
• 4:09
  under this Trump
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: budget.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: And ironically,
• 4:12
  the Republicans go on and on and on about how the problem of
• 4:16
  violence in this
• 4:17
  country is not about guns and it's about mental health and that
• 4:21
  we really need more
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: resources for mental health.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: And yet those resources are being taken away.
• 4:26
  And it's particularly awful when it comes to teenagers because
• 4:29
  teenagers are so
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: vulnerable and so tender,
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: not just queer teenagers,
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: but all of them.
• 4:36
  And that there are moments that they can pass through that feel
• 4:39
  so dire to them.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: And when they're a little older, they're okay.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: So we need to get them to be a little older.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: So listeners, please give to the Trevor Project.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's really, really worthy, as Neil was saying.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: So let's get on to the rest of the news today.
• 4:54
  I guess we have to lead,
• 4:56
  Neil,
• 4:56
  with the search and rescue operation in Kerr County,
• 4:59
  Texas.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: following the flooding that hit on July 4th.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: It is continuing as a cushion.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody really thinks anyone is alive anymore.
• 5:11
  Volunteers and the authorities are in there with backhoes and
• 5:15
  chopping away woods
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: and so on and so forth.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's really
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: just devastating.
• 5:20
  As of this morning,
• 5:21
  120 people are confirmed dead and 160 of them are still
• 5:26
  missing.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's a bunch of big questions that are coming out of this event,
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: which understandably,
• 5:31
  Texas authorities don't really want to address now while
• 5:34
  they're dealing with this
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: tragedy.
• 5:36
  The question is,
• 5:37
  what did officials know about this storm and when did they know
• 5:40
  it?
• 5:40
  Were the Trump administration's cuts to the National Weather
• 5:43
  Service partly to
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: blame for late and incomplete warnings?
• 5:47
  Another question is the fate of FEMA,
• 5:50
  which Trump is determined to close.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: And we're already seeing,
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: not just in Kerr County,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: but also in Raleigh-Durham and in southeastern New Mexico,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: that these floods not only kill people,
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: they have devastating consequences for people's homes,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: for the environment,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: for public infrastructure.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Neil,
• 6:09
  do you think there's any chance that this is going to turn the
• 6:13
  Trump administration
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: around on FEMA?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, I do not.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think if it,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: there's no,
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 6:19
  maybe there'll be a political pressure on them and this will be
• 6:22
  something they'll
• 6:22
  sort of move to the back of the list in terms of things they're
• 6:26
  targeting,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: but it's hard to,
• 6:30
  Is there another example in which there's been a pressing
• 6:34
  example of the need for
• 6:36
  government and governance that has moved Trump and the Trump
• 6:40
  administration into
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: the right direction?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there is.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So why would this be the one?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's noteworthy that the energy right now is being spent on
• 6:50
  misdirecting the conversation and passing blame around and
• 6:55
  targeting media for
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: asking questions at this time.
• 6:58
  So none of that seems to indicate a reckoning with the broader
• 7:01
  issues that are at
• 7:02
  play here and that there might be that this might be an example
• 7:06
  on which government
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: does crucial work and needs to be supported.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 7:13
  And of course,
• 7:14
  there's a certain kind of expertise that's necessary in search
• 7:17
  and rescue.
• 7:17
  I think conservative communities like to think about
• 7:20
  volunteerism as the backbone
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: of such a thing.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: And in many ways,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: it is,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: although untrained and unwanted volunteers can really get in the way,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: which I think the Kerr County officials have been very clear about.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: But there are certain techniques.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: Cadaver dogs now should be in play, I think.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: There was one story about a Coast Guard swimmer,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: like that's his job,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: is to jump into the river and try to help people before they drown.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: He swims that well.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's the kind of training that local people don't have.
• 7:51
  But I think also more broadly,
• 7:52
  I mean,
• 7:53
  we're really going to be looking at a
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: recovery that costs billions and billions and billions of dollars, Neil.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: And how can any one state or one town or one county cope with that?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way at all.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we saw this with the California fires.
• 8:10
  If you have a wealthy state like California that still in an
• 8:13
  event of that
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: magnitude has to depend on federal dollars to meet the crisis situation,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: there's no way that,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: and obviously Texas is a wealthy state as well,
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: but like
• 8:25
  The majority of the places where these hit often are in red
• 8:27
  states that rely on
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: federal dollars just to function in general.
• 8:32
  So if that's abandoned in the case of emergency management and
• 8:37
  it's all up to the
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: states,
• 8:38
  we know how the disproportionality of that is going to play out
• 8:42
  because it's
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: already a disproportionate situation to begin with.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: It will be made more extreme by sort of a state's focused solution.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 8:50
  And I think we're also seeing the incompetence of the Trump
• 8:55
  administration
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: beginning to have an effect on real lives.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: Kristi Noem,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: the Secretary of Homeland Security,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: did not get federal people in there for three days.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 9:06
  we've got all of this National Guard and we've got all this
• 9:09
  military deployed to
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: MacArthur Park.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: in Los Angeles,
• 9:14
  which they just kind of spent the day marching around
• 9:16
  intimidating people,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: those folks belonged in Texas,
• 9:20
  helping and putting up temporary bridges and clearing paths and
• 9:25
  sawing up trees.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think there are aspects to this that are so poignant,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: too,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: one of which has been very widely publicized,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: which is Camp Mystic,
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: a camp that is over 100 years old.
• 9:37
  And we know that these summer camp communities are
• 9:40
  multi-generational,
• 9:41
  that,
• 9:42
  you know,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: little girls are going to the camp that their grandmothers went to.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that the cabins that were closest to the river,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: the children that were lost most immediately were the youngest ones,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: the ones that were eight or nine,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: and that they had almost no warning.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's kind of one of those things that you see that's so horrifying.
• 10:01
  Anybody who knows anything about water knows that once you see
• 10:04
  the water,
• 10:04
  it's too late.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're a Florida boy, you know that, right?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I want to go back to the
• 10:11
  comparison or just the point you made about what's happening in
• 10:16
  Los Angeles and the
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: intimidation that's being
• 10:21
  know frontlined by this administration right that that's where
• 10:23
  they want to direct
• 10:24
  government power towards is towards intimidation and a truly
• 10:29
  disgusting display and
• 10:30
  that that stands in contrast from a real has a you know real
• 10:35
  slowness to intervene
• 10:37
  in an actual crisis it's just perverse to me in terms of you
• 10:40
  know camp mystic and
• 10:41
  the sort of christian the christian camp history there that's
• 10:44
  something that i know
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: a lot about both as a historian and as
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Personally,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: where I grew up in Florida,
• 10:50
  all the Christian kids go to Christian camps in the North
• 10:54
  Carolina mountains,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: which have also been made vulnerable by hurricanes in recent years.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I know this is not the topic of our episode,
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: but it seems worth dwelling on because it is such a major event.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just sort of wanted to talk about the social media dimensions of this.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: one of the things that really strikes me,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: and this is anecdotal,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: but I'll share it anyway,
• 11:19
  is how many of my conservative Christian friends are posting
• 11:23
  nonstop about this,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: and understandably so.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And also, all my liberal secular friends are posting about this as well.
• 11:31
  And that uniformity of sort of outcry and response and concern
• 11:37
  and engagement
• 11:38
  stands in real contrast from the very partisan ways in which I
• 11:42
  think other recent
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: tragedies have played out in social media.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm thinking back to just this winter and the fires in LA and how
• 11:53
  I didn't see any of my conservative Christian friends posting
• 11:57
  anything about that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we could go on and on with more examples of this.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's something,
• 12:02
  there's a way in which our media culture talks about so many
• 12:06
  events as partisan.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's some truth to that.
• 12:10
  But I also think that there is a really large disparity that
• 12:14
  I'm noticing between a
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: sort of across the board or through a
• 12:20
  sort of cross-political response to events and tragedies that
• 12:26
  are rendered
• 12:26
  conservative that we don't see when those same events happen
• 12:30
  that are imagined to
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: be liberal or to be happening in blue states.
• 12:34
  Are you following what I'm saying at all,
• 12:35
  Claire,
• 12:35
  and are you seeing this?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: I am totally following what you're saying,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: and I am seeing this,
• 12:41
  and it's actually caused me to think a lot about what it is
• 12:45
  that we need to
• 12:48
  nurture to bring us back together as a nation and how in fact
• 12:52
  liberals might want
• 12:54
  to be the ones who are beginning to reach out to people i was
• 12:59
  in the car listening
• 13:00
  to npr and there was a youth minister on who was talking about
• 13:06
  the soccer coach and
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: his wife and children who were swept away and the
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: high school soccer team, his kid plays on the high school soccer team.
• 13:15
  So he gathered all of the boys together and brought them to
• 13:19
  church to pray that
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: their coach would be found.
• 13:22
  I might actually kind of crack up a little bit here,
• 13:25
  but it was extremely moving.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: And as they were all praying together, the
• 13:31
  soccer coach's parents came in and said to the youth minister
• 13:35
  they've found their
• 13:35
  bodies they're gone and the youth minister said i'm so glad you
• 13:39
  came here and they
• 13:41
  said we wanted to be here will you please tell the boys
• 13:44
  yourself because we can't
• 13:46
  do it and it was incredibly moving about how a certain kind of
• 13:51
  community functions
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: and how christianity
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: ties people together.
• 13:57
  And I kind of wished that my liberal friends had been listening
• 14:01
  to that and been
• 14:02
  able to feel what those people were feeling at that moment and
• 14:08
  understand the role
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: that Christianity can play in healing people and moving them through an
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: unimaginable crisis.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 14:17
  we've definitely seen some horrible things as well expressed by
• 14:20
  a couple of,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: more than a couple of folks on Twitter and the other places of the,
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: that this was a white nationalist,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:28
  a Christian camp and other sorts of slurs and that these
• 14:32
  children deserved it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: there's always going to be horrific things posted online,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: as we know,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: but I do think that those are few and far between in this.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And what I'm seeing more, again, is sort of a
• 14:44
  just a broad outpouring of support that feels like what we used
• 14:49
  to sort of expect
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: not that long ago.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I would hope we could get back to it,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: even as I would also hope we would not have as many occasions to do so.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: I would agree with you.
• 15:00
  And just to sort of tie a bow on this,
• 15:03
  one of the thoughts I have had is that
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: Many of my Black friends who are academics and progressive as we are,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: are also members of church community.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think they actually do better at this.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think Black people actually do better.
• 15:19
  better at this kind of more capacious empathy and caring and
• 15:24
  community building at
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: moments of crisis.
• 15:27
  And that that's maybe something white liberals need to think
• 15:31
  about going forward,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: is what are the models for this kind of community care?
• 15:36
  And what are the models for reaching out to people who you
• 15:40
  sometimes feel harmed by?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: Let's move on to something we can laugh about,
• 15:47
  which is that after competing conspiracy theories about
• 15:51
  financier and alleged sex
• 15:52
  trafficker Jeffrey Epstein and vowing to reveal the truth about
• 15:56
  liberal elites
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: cover up of the Epstein list,
• 16:00
  the Trump administration has officially reversed course and
• 16:02
  said there is no
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: Jeffrey Epstein list.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Laura Luber,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: Tucker Carlson,
• 16:07
  and other MAGA influencers are crying foul and are now
• 16:11
  demanding resignations from
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI Director Kosh Patel.
• 16:17
  all of which could not make me happier,
• 16:19
  but they're not gonna be replaced by better people.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: What was interesting to me is that Fox News' Peter Doocy,
• 16:25
  whose day job appears to be teeing up softball questions that
• 16:28
  give press secretary
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: Caroline Levitt,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: our favorite person,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: opportunities to spread lies and propaganda is demanding answers
• 16:37
  for why Bondi promised to reveal the Epstein client list that
• 16:41
  she now says does not exist.
• 16:43
  Critics are now pointing to a new conspiracy,
• 16:45
  but this time within the Trump administration.
• 16:49
  So,
• 16:49
  Neil,
• 16:50
  what does this teach us about conspiracy theories and how
• 16:55
  volatile they are?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think on one hand,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: it reminds us something we already know,
• 17:00
  which is that conspiracy and conspiracism is alive and well and
• 17:03
  an animating force
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: of so much,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say the base of Trump,
• 17:08
  but certainly a significant faction of his supporters and maybe
• 17:12
  also some of his
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: most fervid supporters.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:15
  this is the danger of conspiracy in general in American
• 17:18
  political life and for any
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: American political leader.
• 17:22
  that you know this should be a warning to them that if you sort
• 17:25
  of play with
• 17:25
  conspiracy you also stand to potentially become conspiracy's
• 17:30
  next victim and yet
• 17:31
  this doesn't seem to be a lesson that's you know learned by
• 17:35
  especially those on the
• 17:36
  right who have sort of danced so much with conspiracy through
• 17:39
  through the years and
• 17:40
  especially in our recent trump era so yeah i mean i think that
• 17:44
  that's sort of the
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: broad
• 17:46
  political analysis of what this means for the right right now
• 17:51
  and what it means for
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: the sort of Trump universe.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of in a way,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: it feels good to watch the factionalism,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:00
  emerge on the right and emerge on Twitter as these folks start
• 18:04
  attacking each
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: other.
• 18:05
  And yet at the same time,
• 18:06
  if you step back from it,
• 18:07
  you think none of this is good,
• 18:09
  right?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because of the deeper cancer that it all reveals.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: What else do you think about this, Claire?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 18:15
  it makes me think of that racist children's book in which a
• 18:20
  young black boy has to
• 18:22
  go up a tree to escape all the tigers and the tigers run around
• 18:25
  and around and
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: around after each other because they all want to eat him.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: And instead they run so fast that they turn into butter.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I sort of feel like all of these people
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: could easily destroy each other.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard to know what effect that will have on politics.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 18:42
  Elon Musk sort of started the whole thing by going into a hissy
• 18:48
  fit and posting
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: that Donald Trump was on the Epstein client list.
• 18:51
  I mean,
• 18:52
  he didn't start it,
• 18:53
  but that sort of shifted it into another register.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: I would also say that it's important to remember,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: and Kara Swisher was talking about this the other day on her podcast,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: that all of these people make a lot of money off of conspiracy theories.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: So if,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: in fact,
• 19:09
  it's beginning to peter out because there's no more Biden
• 19:12
  administration and they
• 19:14
  purged everybody from the Justice Department who might have had
• 19:16
  anything to do with
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: Epstein,
• 19:18
  that if you toss a little gasoline on the floor and throw a
• 19:22
  match in it and head
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: that
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: fire toward the Trump administration,
• 19:26
  they're going to work on it because they are making money from
• 19:30
  keeping this alive.
• 19:31
  So simply shifting it into another register is,
• 19:35
  you know,
• 19:36
  just a detail for them.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I also wonder
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: if somehow the Trump administration is hiding something.
• 19:45
  Because they called everybody in and they handed them these
• 19:49
  binders that had
• 19:51
  Epstein file printed on the side and told them they weren't
• 19:55
  allowed to look at them
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: until they left the Justice Department.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then everybody looked at them and
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: realized that all of these documents were redacted.
• 20:02
  I also think that the Trump administration playing around with
• 20:06
  the JFK files was a
• 20:08
  terrible mistake because there actually isn't anything in those
• 20:12
  redactions that
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: anybody needs to know or that actually changes the facts of the Kennedy
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: assassination.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: And yet by releasing them, Trump suggested
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: that the government was full of all of these secrets.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think conspiracy minded people are more than a little nuts,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: but it doesn't mean they're completely wrong.
• 20:36
  There are things going on in the Trump administration that
• 20:39
  they're not being told about.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's such a good point.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, what's the metaphor we want to bring in here?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the broken clock rule or what?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: But like,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: when Laura Loomer is the voice of reason,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm using that word purposely,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: like she's the voice of reason about a conspiracy in itself.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 20:58
  the voice of reason there isn't so much the actual conspiracy
• 21:01
  and what she thinks
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: of it,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: but the sort of Trump cover up dimension of it.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: It just that's where I think this all
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: really perplexing to watch.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 21:11
  you find yourself sort of cheering for Loomer and Musk online
• 21:15
  for a minute,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: and then you think,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: wait,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: none of these folks are good.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: None of this
• 21:23
  none of this is something that we want to see sort of flourish
• 21:25
  in our political culture.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think the JFK files is such an interesting,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: smart point that you make because,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: if any of the folks in the Trump administration,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: knew sort of just the littlest amount of history around this,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: they would have known that,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: there's nothing there to those redactions.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yet what they're tapped into is not history and historiography.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: They're tapped into the fringe networks that like animate
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: their political movement and for whom the JFK conspiracy is a big one.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so they want to touch the fire, but not get burned by it.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:01
  you can't do it when part of the fire maybe involves the big
• 22:05
  boss that you're,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: that you're working for.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: They want to touch the fire, but they don't want to get burned by it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's fantastic.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you're right.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: Of course,
• 22:14
  you always get burned by a conspiracy because the Trump
• 22:17
  administration works in a
• 22:19
  way that they're always moving on to the next thing as if there
• 22:22
  is no history.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so Trump can be asked about something that he said last week,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: and he'll say,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: I never said that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: But conspiracy theories don't work like that.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: They recapitulate history all the time.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: And people who are conspiracists are always going back in time,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: not just to find new evidence,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: but to reinterpret old evidence as if it's new.
• 22:43
  So you really have two dynamics here that are in conflict with
• 22:47
  each other,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: where Trump was sitting in his cabinet saying,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing to look at here.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you guys still talking about this?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't know, because you talked about it for the last five years.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: so finally in the news,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: our best friend Elon Musk released a new version of Grok on Tuesday,
• 23:07
  and the AI chatbot suddenly started kicking out anti-Semitic
• 23:11
  posts and praising
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: Hitler.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Although many of the posts are still up,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Grok seems to be back on track as of today,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: and I know this because I started asking it weird.
• 23:20
  questions about rape like if a girl dresses really sexy is it
• 23:24
  okay to rape her and
• 23:25
  grok replied oh no it's never okay to rape anybody you must
• 23:28
  always ask consent okay
• 23:30
  so i think i think they fixed grok nevertheless it's kind of
• 23:34
  disturbing what these
• 23:36
  algorithms can do and the following day after grok did this
• 23:41
  terrible thing and this
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: was said to be an unrelated development
• 23:45
  Ex's CEO Linda Iaccarino resigned after two years of working in
• 23:49
  the most highly
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: paid and thankless job in the entire United States.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: What do we think, Neil?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that we've probably just seen the very beginning of this.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't the end of the story.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is the start of it.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it also,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was seeing Grok,
• 24:06
  I actually saw these sort of Grok anti-Semitic tweets before I
• 24:11
  started seeing the
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: story and was like,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: what is going on here?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is really scary and dangerous.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: do we,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: not to become conspiracists ourselves,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: but like,
• 24:21
  is Musk the person who went in and changed the code and made
• 24:25
  this happen for,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: 48 hours?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: that is what I initially read,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: was that Musk was distressed because he thought Grok was too liberal.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, too woke.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: He kept saying it was woke.
• 24:40
  Right,
• 24:41
  and that the algorithm needed to be tweaked to pick up on more
• 24:45
  conservative content.
• 24:46
  And it's interesting that conservative content included white
• 24:50
  supremacist content,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: anti-Semitic content,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: Nazi-loving people,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: and so on and so forth.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: So yes, I think Musk asked for it.
• 24:59
  It's also kind of scary to think that this was the man who was
• 25:02
  in there for months
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: directing a project to move the entire American government.
• 25:10
  online and and implant ai all over the government and i think
• 25:14
  it really does say to
• 25:17
  us not only that it's dangerous and unsettling but that ai
• 25:24
  really isn't very good
• 25:25
  yet right right and that's a sort of toxic mix of things that
• 25:32
  you're talking about
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: there right
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also this sense,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 25:37
  from many of us that AI is also just this far from being out of
• 25:42
  our control.
• 25:42
  So,
• 25:43
  yeah,
• 25:44
  I mean,
• 25:44
  I think people are worried about this for all sorts of
• 25:45
  different reasons.
• 25:47
  The comment I want to sort of underline here is Musk's
• 25:52
  conservative adjustment of
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Grok that then brings about,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: as you said,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: anti-Semitic,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: white nationalist,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: racist content into it,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think speaks to both
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: the fact that Trump,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: or excuse me,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Musk is not a conservative intellectual,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't have a connection to sort of conservative principles,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: but yet has imagined over and over again,
• 26:18
  his conservatism through a very particular lens of white
• 26:22
  nationalism and male
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: patriarchal power.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 26:27
  It's not surprising then that that's what Grok starts
• 26:30
  delivering when the sort of
• 26:32
  broader comment by Musk is that the algorithm needs to be
• 26:39
  tweaked to correct for
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: its sort of overly woke inclinations.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree with you completely.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: And of course,
• 26:48
  this is the same week that Elon Musk has announced he's forming
• 26:53
  a third party
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: called the America Party.
• 26:56
  And it could really change the dynamic of elections to have any
• 27:01
  political party.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 27:02
  I don't think we think the America Party is going to do
• 27:04
  anything but siphon off
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Trump voters,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: but that any political party could be generating
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: its public relations and advertising and so on via AI.
• 27:19
  And I mean,
• 27:19
  it could really change the atmosphere of the next campaign
• 27:24
  season,
• 27:25
  right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: we've like barely,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 27:31
  I think that like this is accelerating so fast and it feels
• 27:34
  like in a lot of ways,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: 2026 can't come fast enough.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And yet also,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: what is AI going to look like by then?
• 27:43
  And what sort of bad actors are going to be really emboldened
• 27:47
  and really positioned
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: to really shape this through AI technologies?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: and I never thought I'd hear myself saying this,
• 27:58
  but I think we really have to thank Marjorie Taylor Greene for
• 28:01
  getting the part of
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: the big,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: beautiful,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: but bill that prohibited states from regulating AI.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: And she said she would not vote for a bill that had that in it.
• 28:13
  And a group of Republicans coalesced around her and joined
• 28:17
  forces with Democrats
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: and got it out of the bill.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think she was right about that.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Who knows what else she's right about?
• 28:23
  I've never noticed anything else she's right about,
• 28:26
  but she was absolutely right about this.
• 28:28
  And prohibitions,
• 28:30
  any prohibition on regulating AI strikes me as a terrible idea
• 28:34
  at this point.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think they should just kill the whole thing.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Same.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all for that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 28:41
  So let's get to our main topic,
• 28:45
  which is Trump's budget bill,
• 28:47
  otherwise known as H.R.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: 1.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: And why is it called H.R.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: 1?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because Congress hasn't done anything else.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's July and they've passed one bill.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's like crazy town, Neil, right?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of ways we can take this conversation.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think I want to start with,
• 29:09
  I'm very curious what you think about the name of this bill and
• 29:13
  what this says
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: about Trump and Trumpism,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: because this feels just like the most,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 29:19
  basic and just simplistic and embarrassing name for a piece of
• 29:25
  major legislation.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Am I wrong there?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something emblematic of this?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is highly suggestive of a broader politics.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with you.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it is suggestive of broader politics.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: as you were talking,
• 29:41
  I was thinking about the fact that he was sitting in some press
• 29:44
  conference with
• 29:45
  some world leader the other day and started talking about the
• 29:47
  picture frames and
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: how much he liked guilt.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: And he was sort of looking at the ceiling and asking the reporters,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: do you think we should guilt those things on the ceiling?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: The name of this bill strikes me as very much like that, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: That it's got to be the biggest,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: it's got to be the most beautiful,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: and if you only tell people that it's the biggest and the most beautiful,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: that will be true,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: and you will go down in history for that.
• 30:14
  It is also true it was ginormous,
• 30:17
  and we should talk a little bit about reconciliation because
• 30:21
  The party in power gets to put through two pieces of
• 30:25
  legislation by reconciliation.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, the ways in which reconciliation is used are pretty troubling.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: And they bubble up in relation to this bill,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: which is,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:38
  reporters have been saying that every single piece of the Trump
• 30:41
  agenda is in this.
• 30:42
  And the one thing that I think the people around Trump figured
• 30:47
  out how to do was how to
• 30:50
  make policy by budgeting you know the budgeting is and so they
• 30:58
  have defunded a
• 30:59
  range of things like everything queer everything black
• 31:02
  apparently hbcus are losing
• 31:04
  billions in funding as well and they've always been highly
• 31:08
  dependent on the federal
• 31:09
  government more so than other institutions that are dominant
• 31:12
  white but that you
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: know
• 31:15
  We'll talk about the things that are in the bill,
• 31:17
  but it was almost a thousand pages long.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: And the Senate parliamentarian was taking a range of things out of it.
• 31:24
  And there are various rules about what can and cannot go on in
• 31:27
  reconciliation.
• 31:29
  But I think the name of the bill also speaks to Trump's
• 31:36
  relationship with his
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: constituency,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: which is he just says to them,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: this is big and beautiful and wonderful.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: Trust me.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: this is where he is,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: the branding marketing expert,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: that has used the powers of branding and marketing to propel his,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: political career.
• 31:56
  And yeah,
• 31:57
  I think that's what I was getting at in my sort of half-formed
• 31:59
  question comment.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you took it and ran with it in a way that I really appreciate.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much to talk about here.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: one's the history of reconciliation and the ways in which,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: there's certain constraints on that,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: that I think
• 32:15
  everyone who's on the losing side of a bill that passes through
• 32:18
  reconciliation
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: grumbles about it.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's just sort of the normal politics of this, right?
• 32:24
  This feels like the one where like a sort of winner takes all
• 32:27
  scenario and yet one
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: that's like fully and the,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: fully part of the rules of,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: of,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: of this body.
• 32:34
  But I think what you pointed out here is that unlike other
• 32:39
  pieces of legislation
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: that have used this process,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: The Trump team really figured out the sort of opportunity of it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's more than just getting a bill through,
• 32:50
  but about sort of a massive transformation of the federal
• 32:55
  government via this
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: actual process,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is very different than getting like healthcare passed through this,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or some of the other, whatever the other, like major tax cuts, right?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that maybe the better examples for this.
• 33:06
  So maybe we should dive into some of the elements of this that
• 33:09
  are most odious and
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think most impactful.
• 33:12
  Well,
• 33:12
  let's talk about what conservatives have been trying to do
• 33:16
  since the New Deal.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Listeners,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: if you want to know more about this,
• 33:20
  Kim Phillips Fine has written a book about how businessmen
• 33:25
  coalesced to destroy the
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: New Deal in the 1930s,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: 1940s,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: and 1950s.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's definitely worth it.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'll throw it into the show notes.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: But of course,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: what they have done,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: and weirdly,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: this is kind of out of the progressive playbook.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, remember defund the police?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:42
  Well,
• 33:42
  what they're doing is defunding Medicaid,
• 33:45
  defending SNAP,
• 33:47
  defunding parts of Medicare.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then they're also doing something else that
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: was really famous in the 1960s in public assistance,
• 33:56
  which is making the bureaucracy of public assistance so
• 34:00
  complicated and making the
• 34:02
  paperwork so dramatic that people will just give up or they'll
• 34:06
  do it wrong and
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: they'll get kicked off their benefits and not be able to get back on.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: So the Trump people are sort of playing off of the idea of defunding.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: If you defund something, it will go away.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then also this idea that poor people and working class people
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: lack education, they lack time, they lack sophistication.
• 34:29
  If you've gotten rid of all of the offices that they could go
• 34:32
  to to get help from
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: social workers,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: if you get rid of the social workers,
• 34:36
  and then you add a bunch of new regulations on top of what
• 34:40
  people are already
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: doing,
• 34:42
  you're going to save money because people are going to get
• 34:45
  kicked off whether they
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: qualify for the benefits or not.
• 34:48
  Right,
• 34:48
  and that is just the most sort of brilliant strategy for them,
• 34:52
  right?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because they can say, we're not cutting Medicare or Medicaid, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how dare you suggest we are?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also it's enacting the very criticisms,
• 35:02
  some of the very criticisms conservatives have often have about
• 35:05
  government,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: have had about government,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: which is that it's like overly burdensome,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: that it's over regulatory.
• 35:10
  but they're transferring in this case the burdens and the
• 35:13
  regulations to individual
• 35:14
  persons to the most vulnerable but it's you know death by
• 35:17
  paperwork as opposed to
• 35:19
  like you know a reduction of like the actual budget so they can
• 35:23
  sort of have their
• 35:24
  cake and eat it too in this situation folks are not going to be
• 35:27
  able to i mean
• 35:28
  millions and millions of folks are not going to be able to
• 35:30
  comply to these new
• 35:32
  incredibly burdensome procedures and then i think like the
• 35:35
  other thing to say about
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: this is the massive massive expansion
• 35:40
  of ICE,
• 35:42
  of immigration bureaucracies,
• 35:45
  of law enforcement,
• 35:46
  of these labor,
• 35:47
  you know,
• 35:48
  literally,
• 35:50
  Billions and billions of dollars to construct labor camps
• 35:53
  within our country.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is a massive,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: massive expansion of the federal government around some of the most,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: horrific and authoritarian projects of the Trump administration.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what was the graphic?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I saw that this now makes ice.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: It gives ice now the 11th biggest military budget.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: In the world?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: so that seems to me as important,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: if not more so than what I think is giving a ton of attention around,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: understandably so,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: around,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: the cuts to Medicare and SNAP and all the rest.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: I agree 100%.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to focus in on ICE just for a second.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really glad you brought that up.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because I saw a number today that said the funding for ICE,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: and this was in a story in the Atlantic that I should probably link to.
• 36:45
  Apparently ICE,
• 36:47
  the people who work for it are incredibly demoralized,
• 36:50
  which I did not know.
• 36:51
  That a lot of them that did a lot of investigation work and did
• 36:55
  a lot of legal work
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: and so on,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: it's all gone into catching people.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: And they're not happy about having to do the things they're doing.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: They're not happy about how reviled they are in public.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: But also, Rice only has a $9 billion budget right now.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: That budget will be expanded 17-fold.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like in the next budget year, it will be expanded 17-fold.
• 37:25
  And that is,
• 37:25
  of course,
• 37:26
  the prisons,
• 37:26
  but they're also planning on hiring 10,000 new agents.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: They want to give the ones that exist $10,000 bonuses every year.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: They want to give people $10,000 signing bonuses to sign on to ICE.
• 37:39
  I mean,
• 37:40
  you know,
• 37:40
  what we're really looking,
• 37:41
  and I don't like the Nazi analogy.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't because it's so loosely used.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: But if you look at how the SS grew in Germany in the 19th,
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: it was basically a lot of really angry,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: unemployed people,
• 37:56
  many of whom were military veterans who'd never gotten back on
• 37:59
  their feet after
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: World War I.
• 38:01
  Some of them were the children of military veterans who were
• 38:05
  traumatized by their
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: parents' trauma and so on and so forth.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: But they were basically really uneducated,
• 38:13
  people with a chip on their shoulder and they could be brought
• 38:16
  into the ss because
• 38:18
  they could wear a fancy uniform and get paid well and not you
• 38:21
  know not surprisingly
• 38:23
  make a lot of money getting bribes and stealing from people and
• 38:27
  so on and so forth
• 38:28
  well you know part of what i think is going to happen with ice
• 38:31
  is we're going to
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: get a lot of people who can't get work on a police force because
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: They've behaved so badly.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: They've been disciplined so many times.
• 38:38
  We're going to get a lot of people who are former military who
• 38:42
  left the military
• 38:43
  because they couldn't handle the discipline and they couldn't
• 38:45
  handle the work.
• 38:46
  And so,
• 38:46
  I mean,
• 38:47
  handling,
• 38:48
  hiring 10,000 people,
• 38:50
  that's like hiring,
• 38:52
  what,
• 38:52
  a regiment?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:58
  And I don't think we think they're going to be very well
• 39:00
  trained either because
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: Trump wants them in the field,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: like in a matter of weeks.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: and I don't think their training is really the priority here as much as,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: the massive expansion and use of them,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: immediately.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I think, you know, just that's such a...
• 39:19
  fascinating and terrifying historical comparison you've made
• 39:23
  that I think it's
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: really salient here.
• 39:25
  And also it's worth thinking about this all in just the context
• 39:28
  of the last six
• 39:29
  months and a president sort of purposefully seeking to crater
• 39:34
  the American economy
• 39:35
  as he enacts these protectionist measures and sort of engages
• 39:40
  in this constant back
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: and forth of will he or won't he around the tariffs and all the rest,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: but like more and more
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 39:48
  workers made vulnerable by these economic policies would seem
• 39:52
  to only contribute to
• 39:54
  such conditions that would make this work really attractive for
• 39:57
  all those reasons.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also the way in which,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 40:00
  for a big portion of this country and certainly this
• 40:03
  administration are going to be
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: held up as heroes.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, this is it's really scary to me.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's really scary.
• 40:13
  And then,
• 40:13
  of course,
• 40:14
  some $60 billion is going to be put toward building prisons.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: And they're going to start,
• 40:20
  and I think this is where all of the propaganda about Ron
• 40:24
  DeSantis' tent city in
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: the middle of the Everglades,
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even going to deign to use the name that Trump uses for it.
• 40:33
  But what they're talking about is setting up what they call all
• 40:35
  of these soft
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: facilities,
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: which,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: to use a historical analogy,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: The federal government in 1942 started rounding up Japanese people.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: They had no place to put them.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: So they put them in racetracks.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: They put them in baseball stadiums.
• 40:52
  They loaded them on trains and took them out to the desert in
• 40:56
  Idaho and put them in
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: tents and said,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: build your own camp.
• 41:00
  You know,
• 41:01
  your job here is going to be building a camp to incarcerate
• 41:04
  yourself.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a historical precedent.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it is something that was overturned by the Supreme Court in 1944.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: It is something that has been apologized for.
• 41:15
  It's something that I thought most of us agreed across the
• 41:20
  political spectrum was a
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: misuse of government power.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what we're looking at here.
• 41:26
  And that when we get the so-called hard facilities,
• 41:29
  what we are looking at are prisons,
• 41:33
  many of which will be owned by private contractors,
• 41:35
  I think,
• 41:36
  that they're going to want to use.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 41:38
  because let's assume they actually do incarcerate and deport
• 41:44
  the millions of people
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: they say they're going to.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: And the article I read today said the new quota is 7,000 a day.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: They can't do 3,000 a day.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: And Trump is like, no, I want 7,000 a day.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the other thing that ICE is upset about.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: But those prisons,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: when they're there,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: they're potentially going to be used for other people too.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: And we have been a decarceration society.
• 42:11
  We have been a society that has been looking for ways to not
• 42:14
  put people in jail,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: recognizing the damage of the Nazis,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: particularly to communities of color.
• 42:20
  And so part of my fear is that this is bad enough,
• 42:24
  but it doesn't stop here.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: But no, it doesn't stop here at all.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, Trump is signaling that already.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: he's,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: he loves to throw out a comment here and there about,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:34
  maybe such and such person or such and such group needs to be
• 42:38
  deported or to be
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: roughed up or whatever,
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 42:41
  And he's not really testing the water so much of that as he's
• 42:44
  just sort of moving
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: those thoughts into the discourse.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I wanted to come back,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: to the comparison with the Japanese internment camps.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Correct me if I'm wrong here,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Claire,
• 42:55
  but like my my memory from the history of that was that these
• 42:59
  were not widely
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: known.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if they were widely known, they certainly weren't celebrated.
• 43:03
  And I think that like we can see lots of parallels with this
• 43:07
  other moment of like
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: internment of people on this on this.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's lots of historical comparisons to make.
• 43:13
  But I just think that I'm not going to use the name either that
• 43:16
  they're calling the
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: thing down in the Everglades.
• 43:18
  It's worth noting that like they're having press conferences at
• 43:22
  it in which they're
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: hawking merchandise.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: And also you have different agencies or different departments like DHS,
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Homeland Service,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: Twitter and Instagram account.
• 43:34
  are putting out these horrific memes that are celebrating this
• 43:39
  in the grossest,
• 43:40
  vilest way.
• 43:41
  So maybe I'm misremembering the history from the 1940s,
• 43:46
  but my recollection was that
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: To the extent that it was known that that was happening,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: it wasn't something that was being celebrated.
• 43:54
  It certainly wasn't being something that was merchandised and
• 43:56
  it wasn't sort of
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: being used as memeography for a political movement.
• 44:04
  There seemed to be a sort of a shame around that,
• 44:06
  even as it was carried out.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Am I wrong there?
• 44:09
  no i don't think so in a sense that it was being done as a war
• 44:13
  measure right and of
• 44:14
  course americans who were watching that happen at the time also
• 44:20
  knew that there was
• 44:20
  a precedent that this had happened to germans in 1917 that the
• 44:25
  germans were often
• 44:26
  rounded up and and put in in camps as a national security risk
• 44:30
  and so on but that
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: it was specifically attached to war of course trump does use
• 44:36
  The idea of war and he specifically used it as a legal strategy
• 44:40
  to get a lot of
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: this across the merchandising stuff is disgusting.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there's like two pieces that are highly propagandistic that.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: that we need to work to intervene on.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: The first is that nobody is going to lose their benefits.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing bad is going to happen to people who are getting benefits now.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're just going after waste, fraud, and abuse.
• 45:05
  And that thought was really cemented in the minds of the right
• 45:10
  through Doge.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: And now it's being redeployed to say, oh, no, we're not.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: We're not taking Medicaid away from your grandmother.
• 45:17
  We're not taking an attendant away from your disabled Downs
• 45:21
  syndrome brother.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's just waste, fraud and abuse.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: So there's that.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the other in relation to the immigration stuff,
• 45:30
  and I'm glad you brought up the horrifying memes that we're
• 45:34
  seeing coming out of
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: the government is that
• 45:37
  The people who are being targeted for this are targeted because
• 45:42
  they're bad and
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: they deserve it.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: And anything that happens to them is what they deserve.
• 45:48
  And it's okay to take a lot of pleasure in people being
• 45:51
  punished for being bad people.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that is very cemented in the mind of the very online right.
• 46:02
  yeah and of course it's not going to end there right i mean
• 46:05
  this is just the way in
• 46:06
  which like a whole country is coarsened to you know just more
• 46:13
  and more violence and
• 46:14
  more and more um you know authoritarian power you know this is
• 46:21
  the the frog and the
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: and the pot and all that um
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: the sort of,
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 46:28
  that's absolutely what sort of where the conversation is
• 46:31
  sitting right now online
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: is like,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: these are bad people and they deserve this,
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: but you keep expanding the category of bad people.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but the sort of response remains the same.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's tough to know how to respond to it as media people,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: which you and I are,
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: because part of me says,
• 46:49
  I want to put a face on every single one of the people who is
• 46:52
  arrested by ICE.
• 46:54
  The fact that Mahmoud Khalil is now in this sort of
• 46:58
  bureaucratic legal nightmare,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: reading a piece in the New York Times that said,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: actually,
• 47:03
  the Justice Department is trying all these legal strategies in
• 47:06
  hopes that we'll
• 47:07
  just forget about him because they actually know that they're
• 47:10
  not going to be able
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: to deport him or prosecute him.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that makes me think, put a face on everybody.
• 47:15
  But then there's another piece of it that says part of the
• 47:18
  problem here is there's
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: so much to take in
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: As progressive media people, we don't want to add to the crazy.
• 47:28
  We don't want to add to the sense that here are all the faces
• 47:32
  and you're not going
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: to remember any of them because there are so many.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, I think about the faces, though.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: I also think like I want the faces of every ICE agent revealed as well.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's just where I feel like I keep making this point on here,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: but I just think it's worth remembering that so much all of this,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: it seems almost all of this is happening,
• 47:55
  being carried out by men who have covered their faces and have
• 48:00
  produced no
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: identification.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that also...
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is what is fundamental to this project being carried out.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And also it's a chilling,
• 48:12
  chilling development and certainly I think warrants of like
• 48:17
  even worse things
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: coming.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 48:20
  we're also going to end up with a lot of people who have done
• 48:23
  this work who are
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: Really traumatized people,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:26
  and I'm not saying we all need to get together and have a pity
• 48:29
  party for them.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if I were working for ICE, I'd quit.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why they don't quit.
• 48:34
  I mean,
• 48:34
  we're told that there are lots and lots of good jobs for
• 48:37
  American.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: All right, quit.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, don't don't do this to people.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you do this?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now, let's kind of look at some hopeful news about the budget bill.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: The first piece of which is that it's extremely unpopular.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: According to a recent poll by YouGov Economist,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: only 35% of the public supports it,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: as opposed to 53% who strongly or somewhat oppose it.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: But here's the good news.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: Only 67% of Republicans support it, right?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that is...
• 49:08
  a gap of about 12 to 15 points from the number of Republicans
• 49:12
  that support Trump
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: So there are a lot of Republicans that don't like this bill.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: And we're also seeing some really important voices.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: The U.S.
• 49:22
  Conference of Catholic Bishops has denounced the cuts to public
• 49:26
  assistance in the
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: bill as,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: quote,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: an offense to human life.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: And evangelical Christians are sharply divided on the bill.
• 49:34
  One part of the Southern Baptist Convention that is saying they
• 49:37
  don't care what
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: else is in the bill.
• 49:39
  as long as it defunds Planned Parenthood and we're saving all
• 49:42
  the little fetuses.
• 49:44
  But there are other members of the Southern Baptist Convention
• 49:47
  who are speaking out
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: very strongly against the bills because they are so invested in community
• 49:53
  organizing and relief work and they're condemning the bills
• 49:57
  cuts to social welfare.
• 49:58
  And I think there are a lot of Christian organizations that are
• 50:01
  going to go down
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: without that money,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: don't you?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: World Relief,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: which is one of the largest Christian humanitarian organizations,
• 50:08
  has been very critical of a lot of things happening in this
• 50:11
  Trump administration,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: especially here.
• 50:13
  I think watching the Catholic bishops over the next couple of
• 50:16
  years is going to be
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: fascinating because I think
• 50:19
  you know one of as those of us who write about catholic history
• 50:22
  in particular
• 50:23
  catholic political history it's really hard to write about the
• 50:26
  catholic church
• 50:26
  because you cannot characterize it in one way and sort of
• 50:30
  politically you can't
• 50:31
  sort of shove it into a political category and expect it to
• 50:34
  stay there because it
• 50:35
  has such a broad sort of political concern and a political
• 50:39
  history to its and a
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: history to its political activism that really shows how
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: it's interest and involvement in just a variety of issues that don't,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: neatly fit into sort of a partisan category,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: at least the partisan categories that we imagine in a U.S.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: context.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: All of that is to say,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 50:57
  it is very possible to imagine the Catholic Church becoming one
• 51:01
  of the biggest
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: critics and the loudest voices against the Trump administration,
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: even as it has also been one of his biggest supporters.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: But they've gotten the social conservative stuff, right?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: They've gotten the victory on abortion.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: They've
• 51:13
  you know,
• 51:13
  I think are happy to see a lot of the LGBTQ stuff being rolled
• 51:18
  back.
• 51:18
  And also they have this enormous social ethic around the most
• 51:24
  vulnerable that impacts
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know, poverty organizations, health care and hospitals.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the Catholic Church will speak up about those things.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it'll be interesting to watch.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: And also just back to the 67% number.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's the ceiling, right?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: When we're talking about Republican support, right?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's definitely the ceiling.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't going to grow.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's only going to drop.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: How much it drops, we'll see.
• 51:45
  And Trump and conservative media are going to do everything
• 51:48
  they can to sort of,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 51:50
  disconnect Trump from the actual legislation once more and more
• 51:54
  Americans decide
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: they don't like it.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that'll be just another one of the about faces,
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: another one of the reversals that Trump is able to pull off.
• 52:02
  But whatever levels of support for this bill exists right now
• 52:06
  are the high point.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, yep.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it's only going to go down.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Trump's own approval rating is at 38 percent now.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: It is dropping rapidly.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very interesting because, of course, he is acting.
• 52:21
  People had so much to say about,
• 52:23
  you know,
• 52:24
  he's going to run for a third term.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: He's just going to bust right through that constitution.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: He is acting like a second term president.
• 52:30
  Like there are things you can do in the second term because you
• 52:34
  don't have to worry
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: about ever getting elected again.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: maybe this will help the Democrats.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 52:41
  what I'm hearing out there is that the Democrats can't just
• 52:45
  talk about getting in
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: the way of Trump.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: They can't just criticize the bill.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: They actually have to spend some time coming up with a real program
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: that is an alternative to this.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you'd think that wouldn't be hard,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: but it's gonna be important as people,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think people are gonna start losing their homes.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: They're certainly gonna start losing their healthcare.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: They're certainly gonna start finding that various
• 53:11
  Disabled and elderly people in their families are getting
• 53:15
  kicked off Medicaid,
• 53:17
  even by mistake.
• 53:19
  You know,
• 53:19
  so there are a lot of bad things that are going to be happening
• 53:21
  to people.
• 53:22
  The question of how you keep those people active rather than
• 53:27
  just ignoring them and
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: having them sort of sink back into,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: in the end,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: you always get screwed by politicians.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_03: So why bother to vote?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: Democrats have to find some way to recruit them.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: differently,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: let me just reemphasize,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: the budget hawks on the Republican side continue to say,
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: even though many of them then decided to go and vote for the damn thing,
• 53:53
  that the $3 trillion that the bill will add to the federal
• 53:57
  deficit over 10 years
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: is a problem.
• 54:01
  And we should probably devote a whole episode to the deficit at
• 54:04
  some point,
• 54:07
  because I can't figure out whether the deficit is always a
• 54:09
  problem or sometimes a
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: problem or never a problem.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: But certainly for conservatives, the deficit is a problem.
• 54:19
  You know,
• 54:20
  except for Rand Paul,
• 54:22
  Susan Collins,
• 54:23
  and Tom Tillis,
• 54:24
  who's not going to run again.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: They all voted for it in the Senate.
• 54:27
  As far as I can tell,
• 54:28
  Mike Johnson completely held his conference together.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: Lisa Murkowski could have brought it down.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: there's always like one Republican,
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_03: like Tom Tillis,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: saying,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: maybe I shouldn't have voted for Pete Hexeth after all.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Lisa Murkowski didn't have to vote for this.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: She got some carve outs for Alaska.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: But from what I'm reading,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: it's like a carve out for the whaling industry or something like that,
• 54:51
  that actually her constituents are going to get kicked off
• 54:54
  their benefits too.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you said conservatives care about the deficit.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that fiscal conservatives,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: as I've often argued,
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: but I think has become way too apparent in the Trump years is
• 55:09
  fiscal conservatism was in a lot of ways like a politics,
• 55:12
  but not necessarily a policy agenda.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:17
  I think there's different moments you can sort of see the
• 55:19
  divide between sort of
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: the political discourse and the actual,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: legislative project.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: The disparity here now is just immense.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: Mm hmm.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: So these folks will go on Fox News and talk about, you know,
• 55:35
  the massive deficits that this country has and talk about how
• 55:39
  Doge and other things
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: are great because it's bringing,
• 55:42
  cutting out waste and fraud and all the sort of language of
• 55:45
  efficiency and small
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: government and all the rest.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what they're doing.
• 55:49
  Right.
• 55:50
  And the other piece of good news is this is all terrible,
• 55:54
  terrible,
• 55:54
  terrible.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: But Donald Trump now owns this economy.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: He owns it.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no more blaming things on Biden.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's no more blaming things on the Democrats.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is a Republican owned economy.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll see what happens.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: I fear for a great many vulnerable people.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, Neil, our final segment.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: What do we want to go viral this week?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: How are we going to cheer people up?
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do a little bit of log rolling here, if you don't mind.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, sure.
• 56:25
  Which is to mention this podcast episode I was on that just
• 56:29
  came out today.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: A new podcast.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's got a ton of attention.
• 56:33
  I don't know if you've heard of it,
• 56:34
  Claire,
• 56:35
  but the podcast is called This Guy Sucked.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a podcast from the young historian Claire Alvin,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: who just finished her PhD like a year or two ago.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: has done a couple of postdocs.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: I believe she's starting a new postdoc at Yale.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: She launched this podcast back in March.
• 56:51
  I think there's only 19 or 20 episodes and the premise is kind
• 56:55
  of in the title.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: This guy sucked.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: And she has,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: one person on after another,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: one historian on after another who wants to talk about
• 57:03
  um a guy and she said she's also open to gals too who have
• 57:06
  sucked but um so far
• 57:07
  it's both there's a lot of men to choose from men who have
• 57:10
  sucked in history and so
• 57:12
  i went on the podcast and i i mean i have to share this here
• 57:16
  that i sort of
• 57:17
  cheekily emailed her and said well in my book about gay
• 57:20
  republicans i have a lot of
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: men who sucked but am i allowed to say that here you are
• 57:26
  But there was one particular person I want to talk about,
• 57:28
  which was Terry Dolan.
• 57:30
  And Dolan was a major conservative activist figure who found an
• 57:34
  organization called
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: NCPAC,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: National Conservative Political Action Committee.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: cohorts with,
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: and cahoots with Jesse Helms and Newt Gingrich and,
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: associate with Ronald Reagan.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, he and his organization,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:51
  are sort of leaders of the new right and the sort of Reagan
• 57:55
  revolution that comes
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: about in the 1980s and the culture war stuff that starts to develop.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: And also he's a closeted gay man who ultimately dies of HIV AIDS in 1986.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he's a big figure in my book.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a great conversation.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing that I just really appreciate about this,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: this conversation in this podcast was that,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've done a ton,
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: a ton of interviews over the last year or plus about this book.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: And they've,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: it tends to sort of be the same interview over and over again,
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: which is like,
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: tell me about your book and what are the big historical themes?
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: And also what does that,
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: what,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: what,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: what can it say about our Trump moment,
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: by sort of diving into this like deep,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: like
• 58:32
  the biography of one particular character and thinking about
• 58:35
  both his life and his
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: legacy,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: it was a wonderful way to explore my,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: the broader themes of my book,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: but from this really interesting angle that emerges,
• 58:46
  which is whether or not we should feel empathetic toward this
• 58:48
  particular guy who is
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: in a lot of ways,
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: a victim of,
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: the homophobia of the era of,
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: of the Republican Party's in attention to the HIV AIDS crisis,
• 59:01
  even as he's also the person that's helping bring about so much
• 59:05
  of those for the
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: politics of that moment.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so and also just sort of the broader theme of empathy in my book.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just I you know,
• 59:14
  I had this experience where like I recorded the podcast like
• 59:17
  two months ago.
• 59:17
  I sort of immediately forget an interview because I'm sort of
• 59:20
  like it's an out of
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: body experience anyway.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so especially listening to the episode this morning when it dropped,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: like almost two months later,
• 59:29
  I was just delighted and very grateful for the conversation I
• 59:32
  was able to have with
• 59:33
  Claire and for all the things we got to explore that I just
• 59:36
  haven't explored in
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: other conversations with other folks.
• 59:38
  So I want to recommend the podcast in general and give a listen
• 59:42
  to my episode on
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: Terry Dolan that just dropped this morning.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: Neil, I can't wait to listen to it.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it's such a terrific idea for a podcast.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_03: I can't wait to link to it and listen to all the episodes.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 59:56
  it reminds me of a Substack that I'm very fond of called Dirt
• 1:00:00
  Bags of History.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_03: And they're chosen from all historical periods.
• 1:00:05
  Sometimes like it's a nun who's constantly setting fire to the
• 1:00:08
  convent that she's in and so on.
• 1:00:11
  Alison Epstein is the author of Dirtbags of History,
• 1:00:14
  and she's a historical novelist.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_03: But great idea for a podcast,
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_03: great idea to talk about Terry Dolan,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: who people really don't know that much about.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: And he died very young of age.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: 36 years old.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Neil, for that.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_03: So my item this week is a show that we binged,
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_03: but there are only three episodes,
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: so it's easy to binge.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's called Lost Boys and Fairies.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's a drama from the BBC released in 2024 and available on BritBox,
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: which I think is one of the best streaming services there is.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's about two gay men and
• 1:00:54
  a drag community in Cardiff,
• 1:00:56
  Wales,
• 1:00:57
  and the couple's journey to adopting a child.
• 1:01:01
  But really,
• 1:01:02
  in many ways,
• 1:01:03
  it's about the trauma of growing up with homophobia.
• 1:01:08
  and how people who have been hurt and abandoned can help each
• 1:01:12
  other heal and grow.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot about parenting.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: As my partner Nancy said,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_03: you watch these men go through the social services process and realize,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: oh my God,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: the UK is so different from the United States.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: The assumption that they are a stable couple
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: As gay men is just, you know, that's just where everybody starts.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: But the two men, Andy and Gabriel, are very different.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_03: Andy is an accountant and he's, you know, he cooks, he builds things.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_03: He's the one that's really driving the train on the adoption.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Gabriel is a drag performer.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of great scenes,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_03: a lot of great drag scenes that are very musical,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_03: very theatrical.
• 1:01:56
  You get to meet a lot of drag performers who talk a lot about
• 1:02:00
  their generational differences.
• 1:02:02
  But Gabriel is also very fragile and grew up bullied and
• 1:02:07
  feeling abandoned by his parents.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly his mother dies when he's very young.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's not giving anything away.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_03: And his father was traumatized by that and has difficulty being a parent.
• 1:02:17
  So one big theme is how do you parent when you actually weren't
• 1:02:21
  parented very well?
• 1:02:23
  And how might learning how to parent allow you to reinvent
• 1:02:28
  yourself and heal those wounds?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: Gabriel is a wonderful,
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_03: flawed,
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_03: deeply compelling character who ultimately,
• 1:02:38
  he begins by not wanting to adopt and he ultimately embraces
• 1:02:43
  the adventure as the
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: next part of his life.
• 1:02:47
  you will find yourself deeply and profoundly moved both by the
• 1:02:51
  men and by the boy,
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_03: Jake,
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: who they are trying to adopt,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_03: and also by the community that surrounds them,
• 1:03:00
  both in the drag club and in the English bureaucracy that is
• 1:03:05
  helping them do this.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's also a little sub-theme about being Welsh.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: which is part of what I love about BritBox.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:03:12
  I think Americans think of people in the UK as basically being
• 1:03:15
  the same because
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_03: they all speak English and they're not the same at all.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a whole sub theme about whether Gabriel,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_03: who is Welsh,
• 1:03:24
  is going to teach their son Welsh and whether he will go to a
• 1:03:30
  Welsh school.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I can't recommend it more.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_03: There's some thought that there might be a second season of it,
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: but if they left it where they left it,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: it would also be perfect.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds amazing.
• 1:03:42
  I have stopped myself from getting subscription to BritBox
• 1:03:47
  because if I do,
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: you will never see me again.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think,
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: as I've mentioned many times on here before,
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am obsessed with British murder shows.
• 1:03:55
  And I'm able to access a lot of them via all the other
• 1:03:59
  streaming devices I have.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there are dozens and dozens more that only reside on BritBox.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, I don't know, I'm saving it for retirement or something.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I love,
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:04:09
  all the words you were giving to describe this show were like
• 1:04:11
  catnip to me,
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: Gay, drag, BritBox, Cardiff, Wales.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the only thing that sort of pushed me off was adopting a child.
• 1:04:22
  i have to i have to tell the my favorite welsh show which is
• 1:04:26
  hinterlands which is a
• 1:04:28
  it's a show that's i think there's only six episodes it's a
• 1:04:31
  perfect show that's
• 1:04:32
  about you know two police detectives if i remember correctly
• 1:04:36
  correctly they have
• 1:04:37
  the same detectives through all the anyway it's all it's set in
• 1:04:40
  very rural wales
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: and it's like every every episode is its own distinct
• 1:04:46
  crime to solve and the welshness of it is a huge part of the
• 1:04:50
  show and i love it and
• 1:04:51
  they drive by these sign road signs for towns and the names of
• 1:04:55
  the town are like
• 1:04:56
  this you know they're like like 83 letters that are on only 12
• 1:05:00
  you know four com
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: four vowels so yeah
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 1:05:04
  you may have to just fold and at least subscribe to Brickbox
• 1:05:08
  for a week so that you
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: can watch this because it's just beautiful.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: We've actually moved on to Outrageous,
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: which is about the Mitford sisters,
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: which is a little,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: it's a little arch,
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_03: but it's gaining traction with us because like,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_03: how can you,
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_03: how can you not love the Mitford sisters?
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: Neil, it's been a pleasure as always.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time, unless I've fallen down the BRIT box hole.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that's it for today's show.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening.
• 1:05:57
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• 1:06:00
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• 1:06:04
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• 1:06:09
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• 1:06:10
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• 1:06:13
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• 1:06:18
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• 1:06:25
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• 1:06:26
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• 1:06:28
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• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_03: Why Now is supported by the New School for Social Research and by paying
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• 1:06:38
  Why Now and Political Junkie are written,
• 1:06:41
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• 1:06:42
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• 1:06:42
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• 1:06:44
  Claire Potter.
• 1:06:45
  My opening theme is by Galaxy News,
• 1:06:48
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• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's all for now.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_03: See you next time.