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"Revival Of Peace" with Brian McCormack · The Weight

• 0:00
  Eddie Rester: I'm Eddie Rester.
• 0:01
  Chris McAlilly: I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:04
  Eddie Rester: Today we're here with Brian McCormack. Brian leads a ministry at Texas A&M, a college ministry called Breakaway. It's been in existence for 35 years. It started as a Bible study in a house with just a handful of students and became a ministry that impacts thousands of students every week at Texas A&M. Brian has been to Oxford to speak to college students and high school students here, and so it was great to have him on the podcast today. Chris, what did you hear in what he had to say today?
• 0:39
  Chris McAlilly: Hope. That's the main thing. I think that people... If you are looking out at the landscape of American culture, maybe American Christianity at times, you know, I think people despair. I think people get to a place where it's like, man, everything seems hard. I think that underneath the surface, and maybe in various different pockets and places, on college campuses, you see a hunger and a longing for a real experience with something more, an experience with a living God. And that's happening on the campus of Texas A&M. It's happening specifically through the ministry of Breakway.
• 1:25
  Chris McAlilly: And you get to hear about that.
• 1:25
  Chris McAlilly: You get to hear about some of the experiences that Brian has had in leadership, but not just at Texas A&M, he also speaks to other contexts where God is stirring up maybe a new desire among the next generation.
• 1:42
  Eddie Rester: And I think sometimes we get caught up. You know, we're watching the news too much, watching cable news too much. And if you're watching cable news, more than about 15 minutes a day, you're probably oversaturated, and you're getting way too much bad news.
• 1:56
  Eddie Rester: But he gives, you're exactly right, hope. Because he sees what's happening on the ground.
• 2:05
  Eddie Rester: He also talks a lot about the need to speak deeply, to help students dig in, to dig deeply into scripture, into their faith, into a trinitarian faith.
• 2:15
  Eddie Rester: And so for me, it was just exciting to get to hear him talk about all that's going on, but also the ways that we can think about ministry with the youngest generation.
• 2:31
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a lot of...
• 2:36
  Chris McAlilly: You see, I've thought about this many, many times. You see what you're looking for. And if you're looking for a powerful example of Gospel-oriented work on college campuses, Breakaway is not a bad place to look. And so I'm grateful that you're with us today. Hope you enjoy the conversation. We, there are other conversations in the backlog you can go back and listen to, that are rooted in conversations about discipleship or evangelism on college campuses. And you can go back and look at those as well. But we're always glad that you're with us on The Weight.
• 3:15
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO] The truth is, the world is growing more angry, more bitter, and more cynical. People don't trust one another, and we feel disconnected.
• 3:28
  Eddie Rester: The way forward is not more tribalism. It's more curiosity that challenges what we believe, how we live, and how we treat one another. It's more conversation that inspires wisdom, healing, and hope.
• 3:40
  Chris McAlilly: So we launched The Weight podcast as a space to cultivate sacred conversations with a wide range of voices at the intersection of culture and theology, art and technology, science and mental health. And we want you to be a part of it.
• 3:55
  Eddie Rester: Join us each week for the next conversation on The Weight. [END INTRO]
• 4:03
  Chris McAlilly: We're here today with Brian McCormack. Brian is with Breakaway ministries at Texas A&M. And we're so grateful that you're with us today.
• 4:13
  Brian McCormack: Guys, what an honor. Love to be in with your church, a couple of months back.
• 4:16
  Brian McCormack: Such a beautiful people, beautiful place and honored to be talking with you.
• 4:23
  Eddie Rester: We're just grateful. And you are at Texas A&M. Did you grow up at Texas A&M? Did you go to Texas? I know you went to Western and then Duke for seminaries but undergrad at A&M?
• 4:35
  Brian McCormack: No. So this is kind of a wild part of my story, actually. So I grew up in The Woodlands, Texas, that's suburban Houston, about an hour and 15 minutes from College Station where Texas A&M is. As I got older, Texas A&M became the dream school both for academics and especially for athletics.
• 4:54
  Brian McCormack: And so my senior year of high school basketball, I actually was invited to be a preferred walk on at A&M, which was the culmination of, you know, every dream. And on National Signing Day, where they like bring you into the gym and have all the athletes there, and the press is there and the student body is there, got to sign with A&M, all of that. I did not know that my father about an hour prior had gotten a phone call from the school rescinding my offer.
• 5:24
  Eddie Rester: Oh, no.
• 5:26
  Brian McCormack: A better player had come available. And they rescinded the offer. So my dad like rushed to the gym to try to get me to stop from signing. And very cinematically, he came into the gym, threw the doors open as we were posing for pictures after the ceremony. And so my parents didn't have the heart to tell me for, like, two or three days.
• 5:48
  Eddie Rester: Oh, my gosh.
• 5:49
  Brian McCormack: They knew how devastated I would be. So it was this formative rejection experience as an 18-year-old.
• 5:58
  Brian McCormack: And you fast forward all these years, and God's taken me all over the country for basketball and then ministry and then education. And I now preach the Gospel in the same arena, on the same court, that I thought I was gonna play college ball on.
• 6:13
  Eddie Rester: Wow.
• 6:14
  Brian McCormack: So you can't write that. I literally come out of the tunnel that I would have run out of as a player, and then preach on the court I thought I was gonna play on.
• 6:22
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, that's amazing. That is so fantastic.
• 6:26
  Eddie Rester: Did you get chill bumps the first time he came out of the tunnel to preach there? I mean was it... I would imagine there's some, there was a lot of emotion with that.
• 6:35
  Brian McCormack: It was a wildly emotional. I mean, I was very aware of the redemptive nature.
• 6:38
  Brian McCormack: So the first time I preached at Breakaway was my first time ever attending. I had been aware of breakaway for 20 years, but I hadnever been. And so me flying down from Seattle on the possibility that this was going to be my new life. No one else knew that.
• 6:53
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 6:54
  Brian McCormack: Was already emotional. But just I was aware that if it's just this one time, what a redemptive moment. So there was the emotion of that.
• 7:00
  Brian McCormack: And then honestly, there was just the emotion of witnessing what Breakaway is in person for the first time. You know, you hear about Breakaway if you live in Texas for years, but I'd never seen just a wall of students worshipping Jesus on the campus of the largest university in the country, in a basketball arena, in the SEC. I had no category for that. So the emotions were all over the place.
• 7:26
  Eddie Rester: Well, tell us a little bit about--we're gonna get to Breakaway because it's an amazing... You know, people need to be googling this while they're listening to the podcast today. I want to talk a lot about that. But your journey was as a church planter, and tell us a little bit about that. Because I would imagine some of that same entrepreneurial spirit that drives a church planter is also what has to drive your work at Breakaway Ministries.
• 7:54
  Brian McCormack: Oh for sure.
• 7:54
  Brian McCormack: Absolutely. So I before I even knew what church planting was, it's been in my spiritual DNA.
• 8:02
  Brian McCormack: So I met Jesus at a United Methodist Church in The Woodlands, Texas. That was a church plant right around the time I moved to Houston when my family immigrated from Canada.
• 8:12
  Brian McCormack: So my faith is largely the result of the faithfulness of a church planter in the 80s.
• 8:17
  Eddie Rester: Wow.
• 8:17
  Brian McCormack: And then, you know, learned from some church planters in the Seattle area before witnessing some church plants down here in Texas. And then we finally went for it to plant our own church on the east side of Seattle in 2012. And so there are definitely overlaps.
• 8:33
  Brian McCormack: We obviously have a high tolerance rate for risk.
• 8:40
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 8:41
  Brian McCormack: If you're a church planter, and that's certainly played out in our lives, and to do on-campus ministry, trying to reach Gen Z on the campus of a public university requires some of that. But it also is super different. I mean, when you're a church planter, you're gunslinging, you know, and a lot of your ideas are becoming reality in real time. I stepped into a 35-year-old legacy in ministry with a really beautiful culture and a really beautiful history at a school that is really intense on tradition and longevity and loyalty. So it's been a beautiful process of trying to honor the past and then still look forward to the future with that more kind of planter, entrepreneurial perspective as well.
• 9:23
  Chris McAlilly: So when you're on campus, and you mentioned just trying to reach Gen Z in a public university, what are some of the things that... I mean, I think people have a set of perceptions of what's going on on college campus. And that could be, you know, from their own experience. It can be from this kind of archetypal experience of exploring freedom in the direction of indulgence and you know, there are a whole range of things that people think about when they about college. I also think about most recently, protests on college campuses and ways in which people are expressing ideologies and different things. I think there's a fair amount of apprehension or even fear about, like, what's happening among the college kids these days. I guess, what's your perspective?
• 10:11
  Chris McAlilly: What are some of the things that you're observing and noticing among students that you're working with?
• 10:17
  Brian McCormack: Sure. I think that every college context, there are ways that everyone is different, the same way if you're a church planter or a pastor, trying to contextualize to the actual city that you're in, the generational moment you're in, all of that. College to college, campus to campus requires that same contextualization. And there's definitely unique things about Texas A&M. And I think that there's an administration here that is incredibly friendly towards the nature of the things that we do. And that's part of the story of why Breakaway has been able to thrive like this for 35 years in a largely unprecedented ministry expression.
• 10:56
  Brian McCormack: But I would say in this moment, that just universally, God is moving on college campuses. And I'm sure that there are some people that would hear this or would be a part of a similar conversation and say, "Hey, I'm in this area, and I ain't seeing that." And I suppose I wouldn't say that their experience is false. But as much as the exaggerations of the hopelessness of Gen Z are just that, greatly exaggerated, the hunger that people are likely hearing about in pockets and in ways that is spreading campus to campus, I think that is actually under expressed.
• 11:32
  Chris McAlilly: Right.
• 11:33
  Chris McAlilly: And I keep challenging those who've been quick to write off
• 11:33
  Brian McCormack: What I'm seeing in my little Gen Z outpost and what I'm seeing now, especially in the summer months, getting to travel and speak in different contexts, is God just has his hand on this generation. God is stirring things up among young people and among college students. And so people are like, "Brian, what do you see?
• 11:50
  Brian McCormack: You just left lead pastor world and church plant world for the last 15 years. What have you seen in this new space?" And I just say the same thing: I see this generation, for whatever reason, and those who are just hunger. I see unprecedented hunger. And I've been around all the different generations, and I've been in student environments before, and I've been on college campuses before, but something is stirring. It is not hype.
• 12:22
  Brian McCormack: naturally skeptical of what some would call revival or stirring or awakening. I keep challenging people. I'm like, I don't care what you call it, but I need you to find a way to tap into what God might be doing right now. So you can pray for it and support it with your everything, because it's beautiful to see it.
• 12:38
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, so people may have heard about in the national news, something that was going on at Asbury College, you know, last year, or maybe it was, I don't know, at this point, like 16, 18 months ago.
• 12:49
  Chris McAlilly: It got a lot of press coverage in the national news. At that time, we were talking to some of the folks that were on the ground, some theologians at Asbury Seminary. Jason Vickers is an episode you can go back and listen to in the backlog.
• 13:04
  Chris McAlilly: And he was giving kind of real-time theological interpretation for what he was seeing among the students. And he was in those rooms. And one of the things that he talked about is, sometimes when you see something that is expressed or called a revival from the outside, there's some kind of ulterior motive or some leader or something.
• 13:28
  Chris McAlilly: And he described something that was way more organic than that.
• 13:32
  Chris McAlilly: And it was way more... I don't know, the word is not authentic, it was just... I don't know, hunger is one of the words that was expressed, this desire for something more or other than despair, you know, a desire to really like bring the deep longings of the heart to the throne or the altar of God in prayer. Those were some of the themes that I remember him talking about. What are some of the things that you notice spiritually among students?
• 14:11
  Brian McCormack: Right, right.
• 14:11
  Brian McCormack: So I a lot of the themes that I'm sure some of our mutual friends honestly are reporting from moments like Asbury, or what's happening to the Unite movement, you know, like the Unite, Auburn, Alabama, Florida State, like just moments of...
• 14:27
  Brian McCormack: The things that all these spaces have in common, even though Unite Bama or Unite Ole Miss actually, I think might be happening in the next couple of months, which is a beautiful thing. Those things might look different in expression, in production, but the thing I'm observing with all these friends in different spaces, is there is a shift from what people have typically thought about revival over the last 20 or 30 years.
• 14:52
  Brian McCormack: Like if you're like I was awake late at night was watching TV and just saw something that made no sense called revival. Or I grew up in a church that scheduled the revival every May 15, or whatever. And it involved yelling, and whatever.
• 15:07
  Brian McCormack: All the things that we have in our brains, I look out and these different expressions, what they have in common is this shift from commotion to confession.
• 15:14
  Brian McCormack: That's, a huge part is we tend to put a ton of emphasis historically on when the Holy Spirit is moving in an unprecedented way, our conversations right now tend to go straight to the gifts of the Spirit and manifestations of those things. And those are in bounds, but just conviction.
• 15:33
  Brian McCormack: Conviction and confession of sin in healthy, no- manipulative environments, that tends to be something I'm seeing in all these environments.
• 15:45
  Brian McCormack: And then what is completely contrary to whatever like stereotype we have in our head is this beautiful... A generation with an anxiety epidemic, experiencing a revival of peace. That's one of the most beautiful one liners that I think summarizes what I'm hearing and witnessing is this anxiety, depression, mental health crisis among Gen Z, God is swooping into that to get his kids, and he's bringing peace with him. And so less hype more hope. Maybe that's what I'm seeing among this generation, and what God's choosing to do in his pursuit of them.
• 16:27
  Eddie Rester: That's so hopeful for me. Because when all the writings that you read right now, whether it's the anxious generation or any of the other folks who are speaking and talking to that right now, point how disconnected from one another this generation is.
• 16:41
  Eddie Rester: They've been divided by screens, by COVID, by all of these things. And when Jonathan Hite talks about the anxious generation, he talks about being pulled apart by technology. And it really sounds like this is a place where people--and before we started recording, you talked about nearness, I want to talk about that a little bit--but where people are being drawn not only near to God, but near to one another in the spaces where they're experiencing something that maybe that generation didn't get to experience, that older generations did, which is actually the draw of healthy and hopeful community. Are you seeing that alongside all this work as well?
• 17:27
  Eddie Rester: Wow.
• 17:27
  Brian McCormack: And so what we, as much as we celebrate the fact Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And that God willing, in this coming, on August 20, we're I think that when God calls a generation or an individual to hopefully going to be worshiping with a big cross section of himself, he calls them to his people, too. Like, there are very few exceptions to that, that involve like isolated missionary, I don't know. But like, as a general, beautiful rule, when God calls an individual or a generation of students from this region across the state, honestly, those who travel in for it. And you know, alleluia, eight or ten thousand people are there. Our job is to be a bridge and to help people himself, he calls them to his people. And that's a call away find their table, to find that local church, to find that ministry that focuses on discipleship. We just know our role really well. Like, we can't do that for eight or ten thousand people.
• 18:56
  Brian McCormack: But in fact, when my wife and I were commissioned as the new from addiction. That's a call away from screens. That's a call leaders of this incredible ministry, it was on Valentine's Day, two Februarys ago, and that was day eight of whatever was happening in Asbury, whatever we want to call that. So God has away from self-obsession. That's a call away from mental health spoken completion over our planting era, moved my family of five children to Texas, and is now starting this new thing with a college ministry. Okay. And then Asbury is happening and it's spreading, and he's clearly doing something. And on that problems, all of that. And I can say, as the person who has been night, I'm on my knees before we go into the arena. And I'm like, Lord, I look at what you're doing right now. And it doesn't look like what we're doing. It doesn't look like production. It entrusted with a legacy ministry that happens in an arena, that doesn't look like lights. It doesn't look like the best worship leaders across the south coming together because they love playing music for these students. It's happening in the quiet, in the dozens, not in the thousands. But if you can, if we can still be a part of what you're doing in a meaningful the greatest need for Gen Z is not rows to be lost in but way, we are devoted to helping as many of them find their table as possible. So, so yes faster, you're nailing it. That's absolutely at the center of what's happening right now is people starving for communit,y communion with God and community tables to find their seat at.
• 20:13
  Brian McCormack: with God's people, finding a place to feast.
• 20:16
  Eddie Rester: I've said this in so many places and spaces in this season where we have an epidemic of loneliness, not just in Gen Z, but really across the generations, particularly for men in our world right now. The great gift that we were given at the very beginning is what you were just talking about, is that the early Christians gathered at table. And that was the strength of the movement in those early years is that people who had no business being together were drawn together by the Spirit, and by Jesus into one place and where they had their lives redefined and realigned about what God was doing. I want to lean in a little bit to something which again, you talked about before, that you said God was really doing right now. And you talked about nearness. Say a little bit about that. What do you mean by that?
• 21:07
  Brian McCormack: Right. Well, this was unexpected. We felt as a team, and I felt honestly just as an individual about to lead Breakaway through this first full school year. How do we just reestablish ourselves as a Bible study. We're a 35-year-old Bible study that started in a living room with four students. And just you fast forward, and it's something completely different than that, obviously, but at its heartbeat is the Bible study concept. And there was a year and a half where there was no executive director and no teaching consistency. There were top shelf teachers coming in wee- to-week, but basically presenting that like heart message that really resonates with them.
• 21:46
  Brian McCormack: And so we felt really drawn to the Gospel of Luke. We were like, let's just reintroduce ourselves as a study. Let's focus on the person and work of Jesus as we establish Breakaway for a new era. And from week one, this concept of God's nearness just kept swirling as we studied Luke. At the very beginning of Luke, there's just this desire. Luke's desire for his readers is that you may have certainty about the things that you have heard about Jesus. That was our prayer for everybody.
• 22:16
  Brian McCormack: Like, hey, certainty is possible. And the one liner we kept coming back to every single week was the goal of certainty.
• 22:24
  Brian McCormack: There is no certainty without clarity. And there's no clarity without proximity.
• 22:29
  Brian McCormack: So that was the train that we were just kind of on the whole school year as we were going through Jesus's baptism, and then his ministry, and then his miracles, and then his death, and then his resurrection. It was just all kind of through that lens that proximity is the remedy to everything that ails us. That was our one liner.
• 22:47
  Brian McCormack: Nearness to Jesus is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem. And it just kind of became new lenses that we looked through, to have this kind of reintroduction to Jesus, and to tap into the legacy of what Breakaway has been. And that's really been kind of the battle cry. Proximity is the remedy.
• 23:11
  Brian McCormack: Like, what does it look like for us to be as close to God as possible? How does that apply to everything that is part of Christian belief and Christian practice? And might be that that's the truest thing? In the Christian religion, at the center of it, is a father who is ferociously committed to nearness with his kids, and that almost everything else is a means to that end.
• 23:35
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 23:37
  Brian McCormack: That feels... I don't know how tightly that's connected to everything else that we're seeing. But that's been one of the ways that we've interpreted what we've witnessed and experienced over the last year and a half.
• 23:47
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, one of the things I observe about you, Brian, and I did have an opportunity to be there as you were communicating with some of our youth and college kids here in Oxford. And first off, there is a... Your capacity to distill and to articulate or interpret the moment, and to do that biblically and theologically, I do think you're gifted at that.
• 24:14
  Chris McAlilly: And I think one of the things I hear you articulating is that whatever it is that's happening, it's connected to what Luke was doing. And Luke was a storyteller, and the story that Luke was telling, it seems to me, was over and over and again in Luke, you hear now is the time of the Lord's visitation.
• 24:32
  Chris McAlilly: You know, the sense that, don't miss it. There's this window of time. It opens, and it will close and when it closes, it's gone. And don't miss it.
• 24:42
  Chris McAlilly: And that sense of visitation.
• 24:42
  Chris McAlilly: It's not just that we... There is a sense in which, you know, the call is to draw close to God, come near to God. But it's also this sense that God is visiting and coming near to us and that's very prominent in the Gospel of Mark, I mean, in the Gospel of Luke as Luke takes the stories of Jesus and kind of offers them as a way into this deep relationship with the Father. What other themes from Luke, from the Gospel of Luke, that you found that really resonated with kids?
• 25:23
  Brian McCormack: Oh, man, I think one of the unique... You nailed it on just some of the unique aspects of the book itself. And so if you're just kind of exegetically walking through it with a couple of thousand students, the most prevalent themes are the things that should rise to the top if you're not trying to make it kind of ventriloquist-style say what you want it to. And one of the unique things about the Gospel of Luke is I want to say four or five times as many references to the Holy Spirit as the other gospels. It's just constant. And just like name checking the spirit directly, or implying the activity of the Spirit just way more than the other gospels for whatever reason.
• 25:59
  Brian McCormack: And so as I tried to shepherd thousands of students who represent all the faithful Christian traditions at this huge university, it's like, how do we find language to at least call out that objective, undeniable attribute of this book that can't lie? And how do we remove the cultural and the previous experiential obstacles so that we can find a biblical, practical way for people to engage with the Holy Spirit?
• 26:29
  Brian McCormack: And the language that we felt led to was trinitarian language, was just like, hey, everybody, we're not trying to make you more liturgical. We're not trying to make you more anything. We're not trying to make you more charismatic. We want us all to be trinitarian.
• 26:42
  Brian McCormack: Like, let's be people. So let's start. Let's go in order. And Luke led us this way, as well.
• 26:49
  Brian McCormack: It was hey, if you have father issues, let's
• 26:49
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 26:52
  Eddie Rester: talk about how that might be blocking your ability to connect with the Father. Are you averse to Jesus, because you've generalized, like... Deism is kind of it's... Jesus is... Like his his tendency to talk about your sin kind of freaks you out.
• 27:09
  Eddie Rester: So you're not big on Jesus, but you'd like a loving dad, and just like the mysticism of the Spirit. Let's talk about Jesus.
• 27:15
  Eddie Rester: And then, hey, just by observation or experience, are you just freaked out? Are you Father, Son, and Holy Bible in the way that you function?
• 27:23
  Eddie Rester: [LAUGHTER]
• 27:24
  Chris McAlilly: That's so funny.
• 27:25
  Brian McCormack: It's not down on anybody. Let's just accept that we have an aversion because of past experience, observation about the Spirit. How do we have a biblical construct of who the Holy Spirit is, as a person, and a third member of the Trinity?
• 27:39
  Brian McCormack: And what is a biblical, practical way to engage with him?
• 27:41
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah.
• 27:43
  Brian McCormack: That's been really, really beautiful at Breakaway. And I feel like in that process, which is stretching for everybody, I think that most of the people who have already been on the Breakaway bus and felt like at the center of the community, most of them are still with us.
• 27:58
  Brian McCormack: But there are parts of the Christian family tree, who now feel like, oh, like, there's a place for us here. Because we do all those things together.
• 28:06
  Brian McCormack: And he was saying, "Man, I just got really confused about what
• 28:06
  Chris McAlilly: I had this amazing conversation with a young student. This is a student who is finishing not at our college, not at our university, but from another town in Mississippi. And I was just listening to this young man as he was articulating his journey, both kind of away from and then was real." And I said, "Well, what helped?" And ultimately, back towards a deeper faith. And he was describing this particular cultural moment among the Christian families, and he was, you know, he's dating a girl from a different tradition.
• 28:38
  Chris McAlilly: And she was challenging all these different things about the what he was talking about is discovering God, Father, Son, faith that he grew up in. And so that forced him into this deeper biblical and theological journey.
• 29:00
  Chris McAlilly: and Holy Spirit and drawing...
• 29:00
  Chris McAlilly: And really what it was, he was like, "Man, this is the real thing," and he was particularly talking about it within a Wesleyan, Methodist frame. And so he's describing salvation at the end of the day, just this powerful experience with the saving grace of God. He said it unlocked the Bible for him. And then you know, he got caught up in this idea that the never ending grace of God was available to him. And it led him on this powerful journey.
• 29:33
  Chris McAlilly: But I guess in the midst of it, it was less about like this part of the family tree, the Christian family tree or that dimension of religion. It was more an experience with the living God that he was connecting to and that unlocked everything else. And I do think that that's one of the things that I hear coming through both your preaching and kind of your storytelling here about the nature of your ministry.
• 29:59
  Eddie Rester: One of the...
• 29:59
  Brian McCormack: Yeah.
• 30:00
  Eddie Rester: Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Brian.
• 30:02
  Brian McCormack: Oh, I was just... I'm glad that comes through, for sure. And I think that that experience... Gosh, I think there's so much about the Christian life and Christian ministry expressions that should embrace the both/and instead of the either/or. I'm certainly not anywhere close to the first to articulate using that both/and terminology. But what a win if are places of worship and environments like Breakaway, if they can be a place where you can dive deep into the intricacies and the beauty of the Scriptures and be confronted by like, what I believe to be bulletproof truth, but then also have a transcendent experience with God's presence, with the Holy Spirit, in a way that appeals and connects with your emotions, but doesn't have to be emotionalism. If we can do both of those things, we're doing something really powerful.
• 31:00
  Brian McCormack: in my experience, will have one moment where they have a supernatural moment of some kind. That's like, well, that's my category now. Like, I'm not going to check my brain at the door, but I can't unsee or unfeel what was clearly something bigger than myself.
• 31:23
  Brian McCormack: And so, I've heard stories, much like the one that you have shared.
• 31:30
  Eddie Rester: So I was gonna say it for my experience of this youngest generation, that's moving through now, is that they do want the richness of the history. They do want the richness of the trinitarian faith. They do want the richness of even the creeds, a lot of them. You talk about the emotionalism, I'm Gen X, and so I grew up in an era where it really was about appealing to deep emotion and then turning you. And as people in my generation have reflected on that, now you've seen a lot of people walk away or be disillusioned, I guess I should say, about what they experienced as faith, because they realize they got a lot of emotionalism but they didn't get the depth that they needed.
• 32:19
  Eddie Rester: And this generation in particular seems like they are willing to go deep. I've seen that. And I've heard that from folks over and over and over.
• 32:28
  Eddie Rester: How do y'all at Breakaway continue to help your students dig deeper, beyond just you're worshiping together? What tools do you have? What pathways have y'all set up to help students make that journey?
• 32:47
  Brian McCormack: Sure. We, I think the biggest answer is just the culture we try to set. And then a culture of engagement, a culture of... We're not going to quote 45 Greek terms per message just to try to show you how legit we are. But we are going to challenge you. Like, you know, occasionally saying, hey, this right here, Luke is using what's called the chiastic structure, and you're capable of unpacking what that means.
• 33:16
  Brian McCormack: I think the most important answer for me personally, my
• 33:16
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 33:16
  Brian McCormack: Like, give me 90 seconds, and this is actually context, is hyper clarity about what Breakaway is and it's not.
• 33:19
  Brian McCormack: going to be really cool, and store that away. Or this is what a Markan Sandwich is, like, you know, whatever things like that.
• 33:22
  Brian McCormack: Like we use phrases such as we are intentionally insufficient We do that and set of culture of"you can do this yourself." Look for a life of faithful discipleship to Jesus.
• 33:30
  Brian McCormack: deeper than the initial glimpse of Scripture. Just a glimpse
• 33:33
  Eddie Rester: I love that.
• 33:34
  Eddie Rester: might change you, but look deeper than the initial glimpse,
• 33:36
  Brian McCormack: Like we are about trying to give you an and you're capable of doing that study. And you're capable of appetite. And that doesn't mean we're surface level. I believe like... You can do this, is what I want people to leave with. The Bible is incredible, and I can dig. I can do it myself. So that we're the opposite. We're trying to give you an appetite for the culture is important to what we try to do every week, whether it's me or a guest preacher or whatever it might be.
• 33:53
  Brian McCormack: deeper things of God. We're trying to give you an experience with God's presence in a sincere, non-manipulative way.
• 34:27
  Brian McCormack: And we want to be... You can call it a funnel, but I think it's honestly more accurately a bridge. Breakaway is a bridge to get people into more intimate discipleship environments, and into faithful disciple making churches. And it is our job to curate those relationships. And it is our job to make sure that bridge is not just hypothetical, but functional and sound.
• 34:50
  Brian McCormack: And some of these students are going to be on that bridge for 40 seconds. They're going to get saved, fall in love with the Word, and say, "Point me where I'm supposed to go," and they're going to sprint across the bridge into the local church.
• 35:01
  Brian McCormack: And some of them, I'm going to, we're going to have to carry them across that sucker for four years.
• 35:06
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 35:07
  Brian McCormack: Until they start the next season of their lives. So that's my two-fold answer is a culture of engagement with the text. You can go deep. And then secondly, this isn't the place to find your table, to do your digging.
• 35:22
  Brian McCormack: But we are here to help you find your table, whether it's a local church, or a ministry that focuses on that, that we love and have relationship with.
• 35:29
  Eddie Rester: I so appeciate that. Because one of the things about the local church that a college ministry cannot provide is, is layers of generation where you have a 35-year-old mother or father or businessman or businesswoman who's ahead of the journey. And how do we, how do you make that jump from college to the next stage? You don't have the 60-year-old, who is a grandmother or an empty nester who can nurture you in the faith from a perspective of not just three or four years of deep faith, but 40 years of deep faith, who's seen the presence.
• 36:09
  Eddie Rester: Has there, is there ever any pressure, and I love that phrase" intentionally insufficient," is there... I'm sure you have to fight the pressure sometimes from folks to become more than you are. Or maybe the culture is now 35-years-old, and just there's true, consistent clarity: This is who we are and who we're going to be.
• 36:30
  Brian McCormack: Sure, sure. I can't say that I've felt pressure. I do think that the pressure I feel is, honestly, from within. It's not from any voices trying to pressure us to,"Just admit it, you're a church." And like, no, we're not just jumping through hoops.
• 36:44
  Brian McCormack: Like, we actually believe this.
• 36:47
  Brian McCormack: And that's what I love is of the--I'm the third executive director, excuse me, the fourth executive director in 35 years of this ministry. A lot of longevity, and the three who came before me, were younger than I am as a starting point.
• 37:01
  Brian McCormack: And they let from parachurch ministry to lead pastor positions at local churches. I'm the opposite.
• 37:09
  Brian McCormack: So I just served in local church world for 15 years and was the lead pastor for 11. And so it's hard to doubt my commitment to the local church in that regard.
• 37:19
  Brian McCormack: And I hope it's hard for people in this town to doubt my commitment to build and curate relationships with those local churches. So the pressure I feel is honestly from within, is it's not enough to say at once at the fall launch every year. "Hey, we're not a church. We're gonna challenge you consistently.
• 37:35
  Brian McCormack: Don't treat this as a church." But at the same time, we will not apologize for this ministry doing its job to reach people the local church is struggling to reach. That's a good parachurch's job. And if we are functioning as their primary initial experience, I'm no longer gonna apologize for that.
• 37:57
  Brian McCormack: Because I know my heart. I'm trying to like ferry these There's a model...
• 38:01
  Brian McCormack: people into Jesus-loving churches as quickly as possible.
• 38:05
  Brian McCormack: And we're gonna keep saying, hey, we're not a substitute.
• 38:07
  Brian McCormack: We're a supplement to discipleship to Jesus.
• 38:11
  Eddie Rester: I know Chris has a question. My quick response to that is, you know, there's a model in your history, my history of that. And that's John Wesley, in England, who did not want to start a church. He wanted a revival movement to reach the people the local church wasn't meeting so they could go back and revive the church. And in it was only after the Revolutionary War that he led the church start in America, begrudgingly. And then it was only after his death, that the Methodists in England became a church because he was so committed to feeding the local church and helping them find revivals. Now I'll be quiet and let, because Chris sitting over there, like, "it was my turn..." And I don't...
• 38:57
  Chris McAlilly: No, it's all good. I appreciate your commitment to a culture of engagement with the text and making the Bible, unlocking the Bible for people. I wonder, so you mentioned that kind of the first year you took folks through the Gospel of Luke, what did you do in the second year?
• 39:16
  Chris McAlilly: And what, as you look forward to your third year, what are some of the things that that you feel drawn to offer?
• 39:26
  Brian McCormack: Sure, well, I just finished my first full year, a couple of months ago.
• 39:31
  Brian McCormack: So I was around before that, but it was
• 39:31
  Chris McAlilly: Gotcha.
• 39:33
  Chris McAlilly: finishing up a spring semester while moving a family of seven Yep.
• 39:33
  Brian McCormack: So if year one, like a full year, if year one across the country and learning the ropes. So we just finished my first full year at the beginning of May.
• 39:46
  Brian McCormack: was all Luke, what would be your best guess of what year two is gonna be?
• 39:49
  Eddie Rester: You gotta go to Acts.
• 39:50
  Brian McCormack: There you go.
• 39:50
  Brian McCormack: So that's what we're doing.
• 39:53
  Chris McAlilly: That's awesome.
• 39:53
  Brian McCormack: That's what we're doing. So we... It's really hard. I've done an exegetical study on the book of Acts before at my church in Seattle. We went about a year, and we kind of ran out of steam around 16, 17. It's like the third legal trial and intricacies of the Roman Empire, kind of like...
• 40:13
  Eddie Rester: Another journey?
• 40:13
  Eddie Rester: Who's going where?
• 40:13
  Brian McCormack: ... Discussing the bits and bringing the truth out of every verse. So we're not going to try to tackle it exegetically. But I do think this whole fall, unless the Holy Spirit tweaks some things, is just going to be swimming around in Acts one through three. So everything from the introduction to your identity is as a witness, in Acts 1:8, and just what's actually happening at Pentecost. What are the implications of an indwelling Holy Spirit? What is the church
• 40:45
  devoted to in Acts 2: 42-47. And then just trying to identify the key themes of just... Last year was who is Jesus, according to the book. This year is who are we according to the book? And we'll see what that looks like.
• 40:57
  devoted to in Acts 2: It'll be very exegetical, but kind of topical. It'll be exegopical, if you want to call it that.
• 41:06
  Eddie Rester: The thing about Acts is the mission of Jesus suddenly become so apparent in the life of the Body of Christ in that how we begin to take on that character, as this grouping of people who live in proximity to the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. So, yeah. When you started to answer that, like, certainly he's got to... He can't skip Acts. He can't jump out. You can't go back to Exodus or something after that.
• 41:34
  Chris McAlilly: The other question I had is, who were other, I guess, other ministries or other leaders or other things that you observe, either on college campuses or beyond college campuses, anywhere in the world that you're paying attention to that you're kind of, you know, that others may find inspiration from as well?
• 41:57
  Brian McCormack: Oh, goodness, I don't think anybody has their finger on the pulse of the generation better than Louie Giglio and Passion. And more accurately, Louie's team, I think that every great leader's secret is typically the team behind them, and Louie would be the first person to admit that.
• 42:16
  Brian McCormack: But we're decades into that movement, and they still... It's not just they observe the generation effectively. I just believe prayerfully. They just, I don't know. I attribute to the Holy Spirit.
• 42:29
  Brian McCormack: But briefly, I'll share this about that before I complete the list here, is I'm all over the place in terms of my background.
• 42:38
  Brian McCormack: I grew up Catholic, was saved by Methodists. I first learned the Bible from John MacArthur at the Masters college with conservative Baptists. I graduated from an Assemblies of God undergrad University in Seattle, and went to a non-denominational place for my masters. And I went to Duke Divinity School for my doctorate. So it's like, you tell me what I believe on anything?
• 42:56
  Brian McCormack: In terms of specificity, other than this, like, ferocious Gospel heartbeat, and the ability to learn and glean from all these different groups. But being in all those different circles, there are times where important conversations, whether it's about formation, and practicing the ways of Jesus, or justice in a biblical vein, or what have you. There's been times I've stepped into rooms metaphorically or literally, and found myself saying, like, where's the cross? But where is the cross? Not in a theological watchdog kind of way. But just where's the cross of Jesus?
• 43:31
  Brian McCormack: Where is like the problem of sin, and the sacrifice of the Son, and the victory that was even there before the tomb, where's the centrality of the cross?
• 43:43
  Brian McCormack: And so when I go to Passion... I felt that the last couple of years in my spirit, and to go to Passion Conference this year, I wish I could show you the picture. On day two, at Passion Conference at a football stadium, 70,000 people, there was a 40 foot cross at the center of the place. And just a mass of students just having this adoration moment that became this really spontaneous, beautiful thing. I attribute that to Louie and his team and their prayerfulness, putting the cross back at the center as a generational focal point.
• 44:16
  Brian McCormack: They're incredible.
• 44:16
  Brian McCormack: Lesser known... There's Southeastern University, is an Assemblies of God University in Lakeland, Florida, that maybe not everybody's heard about. But a friend of mine named Andrew Guard was the campus pastor there, gosh, maybe 10 years ago.
• 44:33
  Brian McCormack: And ever since then, I believe that the newer campus pastor there is named Jonathan Rivera, just a beautiful work that's happening on that campus. And I believe it's my job know about that campus of 5,000 while being on the campus of 75.
• 44:49
  Brian McCormack: There's some really beautiful things happening at the Grand Canyon where they have a weekly gathering that is voluntary completely, and gathering thousands of students. So I'm always keeping an eye on them.
• 45:01
  Brian McCormack: There are things to learn from those people as well.
• 45:06
  Brian McCormack: And I think that parachurch ministry, I think that college ministry is no different than local church ministry. And that tends to be that the most valuable voices don't have the most followers, haven't published the most books.
• 45:21
  Brian McCormack: They're the ones that are in context most similar to you, and are the most accessible. So be inspired by the big ones. But man, start on Google Maps, like in your block, and start zooming out until you hit that first faithful leader that's doing something you can learn from is my advice to those, you know, in a similar context as mine.
• 45:41
  Chris McAlilly: if there's somebody who, you know, I'm thinking about someone who's in their 20s or 30s, who really hasn't found their place or their work, you know, someone who... Flashback five years ago or ten years ago, and you're in the grind of doing a good work, but maybe you hadn't found your place. I mean, what word of advice would you give for somebody who's really trying to kind of find their niche, and then maybe someone who's on the other end of, you know, who is retired and has been watching the church for decades, and maybe a bit just kind of weary from all the years in a cultural moment where people have been walking away from the church.
• 46:20
  Chris McAlilly: What would you say to both of those kinds of individuals?
• 46:24
  Brian McCormack: For sure. Well, for the people trying to find that niche, there's a couple things that resonate, as I think of the last couple years of conversations I've had with people, and some is just with young adults trying to find their place in ministry, if that's one of the implications that you were trying to point to. And I have found that my time with young adults is that no one is better at panicking about not knowing the specifics of their calling, than 20 year olds, man. Like they have mastered this in a way that others have not, in my opinion.
• 46:58
  Brian McCormack: And I think it's because there's a confusion around the concept of calling. And the individualization of calling is important. I just think we tend to focus on that too much. We tend to focus on the things: what will be unique about my calling compared to everybody else's? And we tend to overstep what are we all called to do, period. Because most of us don't, most of us are not thinking about those things day to day. We're focusing too much on the specialization.
• 47:31
  Brian McCormack: So when I'm sitting down with a panicking 21-year-old because they're about to change their major again, or because that church internship didn't go as well as they wanted it to, I'm just like, hey, look at me.
• 47:39
  Brian McCormack: First of all, if no one's told you this recently, it's gonna be okay. You're not going to miss it. Like God is so prepared for whatever clumsy steps you're going to take towards wanting to follow and serve him. It's gonna be all right.
• 47:53
  Brian McCormack: And then I'll say, will you please focus? What if you already know everything that's most important? What if it's enjoy God, delight in his Word, walk in the power of his Spirit, live in community, ferociously love your city in tangible ways.
• 48:08
  Brian McCormack: And then really, the only mystery is what will be your mailing address and whose name will be in the top right hand corner writing your paycheck?
• 48:14
  Brian McCormack: Like what if those are the only mysteries? What if the primary stuff is clear? And I usually have to say it a couple of times, but you can see people's shoulders drop, and just like,"oh, wow, I feel lighter." So that's something I would say to anybody is those, what, five or six things I rattled off?
• 48:35
  Brian McCormack: Those are true for me, regardless of what God's called me to in specificity. That's true for the 20-year-old. That's true for the retiree. That's true for everybody.
• 48:44
  Brian McCormack: I will answer specifically, you said what about the person who's retired. And man, I just think about people whose last 10 years, or even the last 15 years, maybe they've been in the game for 40, 50 years, and they're hitting the technical finish line of their vocational, paid, full-time ministry, whatever you want to call it.
• 49:05
  Brian McCormack: What a rough lot. You know, pandemic decline of every measurable, you know, according to Barna, whatever. And that's how you're kind of getting across the finish line. I hope that the stories of the sparks are so inspiring to those people.
• 49:25
  Brian McCormack: But then I'm just like, even if it's in your context, some retiring 40-year faithful Methodist clergy person, right.
• 49:34
  Brian McCormack: I don't give a rip about like, what the formal retirement is, like, please stay in the game.
• 49:38
  Brian McCormack: There's something stirring and your wisdom is so necessary.
• 49:43
  Brian McCormack: Please keep an open seat at your table. And please stay invested in this generation, for the coming years as well. There's too much brewing. There's too much opportunity. And the church is the largely bankrupt in that kind of wisdom. Not bankrupt, but that's what scares me.
• 50:03
  Brian McCormack: We lost it, yeah.
• 50:05
  Brian McCormack: It's people who have finished strong. That's our greatest need in this generational work.
• 50:08
  Brian McCormack: People who are finishing strong are going to be the new superheroes in this generation.
• 50:15
  Brian McCormack: Because this generation does not give any... They do not care about celebrity, in my opinion.
• 50:17
  Brian McCormack: Like celebrity preachers, celebrity worship leaders, I can tell you...
• 50:24
  Eddie Rester: They got burned out on all of it. They got burned out.
• 50:27
  Brian McCormack: There's literally two or three people I can bring in to Breakaway that will move the needle attendance-wise at all. But you know what they lean in for is longevity and faithfulness.
• 50:36
  Brian McCormack: They're like that and really meaningful friendships. Those things, they're like, "whoa, I want more of that." So the retiring person, like, please keep that open seat at your table, because this generation will come sit down.
• 50:54
  Eddie Rester: Brian, thank you.
• 50:54
  Eddie Rester: This has been just a gift, a gift for me. And I think a gift for our listeners. And our prayers are with you as you prep for the fall. This will release actually after you started back up in the fall. But we thank you for your time and your gift and all the ways that you were sharing good news. Thank you.
• 51:15
  Brian McCormack: I appreciate it, guys. When I had the chance to be with you, I prayer walked Oxford, got to see the Square and just kind of take in the community. And it's kind of stuck under my skin. You know, I read a book about the history of Oxford. I'm just I'm praying for you guys and for something unprecedented to happen. Yes, and your students, but just in the people that city, and your church especially.
• 51:39
  Eddie Rester: Well, come on back.
• 51:40
  Brian McCormack: In your corner.
• 51:41
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, man.
• 51:41
  Chris McAlilly: Thanks a lot. Good to be with you. And good to be in conversation with you today.
• 51:47
  Brian McCormack: Yep. Thanks, guys.
• 51:50
  Eddie Rester: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
• 51:56
  Chris McAlilly: If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]