Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / Yes, Teachers and Students Are Always Complicated (Ft. After the Hunt, The Children’s Hour, & Tea and Sympathy)

Transcript

Yes, Teachers and Students Are Always Complicated (Ft. After the Hunt, The Children’s Hour, & Tea and Sympathy) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

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  They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid Telling
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  us to hush, dim our historical light But, darlings,
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  we're the Harpies, sharp and keen Unveiling the
• 0:12
  truth behind the silver screen History Harpies
• 0:17
  hear us roar Through the ages we explore Hi,
• 0:24
  welcome to History Harpies I'm Lauren And I'm
• 0:26
  Christine And we welcome you for a very Friendsgiving
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  episode. Oh, Friendsgiving. You are correct.
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  Yes. I do wonder whether we're going to have
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  time before Thanksgiving to do another episode,
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  but this could be considered a pre -Thanksgiving
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  episode where we give thanks for the gift that
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  is, drum roll, sexual harassment. Yes, this is
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  going to be the topic of what is our 14th episode.
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  We are going to be talking about some films that
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  deal with teachers and students and harassment
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  on all sides or harassment on different sides.
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  Maybe we should say bad behavior, some good behavior
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  and a lot of rumors and a lot of rumors. And
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  certainly we also have going a lot of power differentials.
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  I guess we could probably do a whole elaborate
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  thing where we spun this out, Lauren, to turn
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  power differentials into a conversation about
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  Thanksgiving and like the American founding or
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  something. But let's not do that. Let's not.
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  Let's not do that. Let's not. But I am going
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  to say before we start that I think we've appropriately
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  bridged Halloween and Thanksgiving because I
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  just brought you a present of your favorite candy,
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  which came from my son's Halloween bag. But here's
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  what you don't know. And you said that too. Here's
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  what you don't know, because I didn't want to
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  spoil the gifts at the time. Right before you
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  came, I went to CVS and bought myself a pack
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  of Twizzlers. Oh my goodness. But yours was so
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  special. The thoughts that count. Yes. And I
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  am looking forward to perhaps turkey flavored
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  Twizzlers in honor of Thanksgiving. I'm going
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  to vomit now. And pretty soon we'll be heading
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  to our Thanksgiving traditions where we can Spend
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  time with family and whatever that means. Whatever
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  that means. Whatever that means. For all families.
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  For all families. Whatever that means. Yeah.
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  Yeah. this is also a nice segue from Thanksgiving
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  to hunting, because the first thing we're going,
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  isn't that fantastic? I didn't even practice
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  that one. Oh, girl, you are on it. Zipping around.
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  Zipping around. So the first thing we want to
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  talk about is a very recent film that came out.
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  And then we're going to talk about a couple of
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  older ones that pertain to our theme. So the
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  first film we want to talk about is called After
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  the Hunt and came out fairly recently in 2025
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  and a film that in some ways got a lot of buzz
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  initially, but the buzz faded pretty quickly.
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  It's interesting because I told somebody what
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  we were talking about this week, the three films.
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  And of course, I didn't think they would have
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  heard of the older films, but they said, well,
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  I haven't heard of any of those films. And I
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  said, oh, OK. I said, well, this is this Julia
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  Roberts vehicle. And so the idea is Well, as
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  two professors, we felt that we had to go and
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  see this film about academia and Yale specifically
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  in this particular film and Julia Roberts playing
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  a professor and to investigate how well it captures
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  academia and some of its flaws and the film in
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  general. So the idea is that Julia Roberts is
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  a philosophy professor at Yale who for, right?
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  Philosophy. Yes, philosophy. For reasons that
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  we're unsure is still doesn't have any tenure.
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  Still does not have tenure. Even though she is
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  Julia Roberts. And so is in her mid fifties,
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  at least. Yes. And in the film is Although there
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  are some medical reasons, or maybe she took a
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  few leaves, or I don't know, extensions. It's
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  unclear. It's unclear why she is not a full professor.
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  But she is not a full professor. And listeners,
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  let me just say one thing, because I'm going
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  to clarify it for you. Please. All right. And
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  I'm not telling you, Christine, anything. No,
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  I understand. I understand. Tenure is not this
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  nebulous thing that one person in the world gets.
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  There are very explicit rules in every department.
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  Procedures. Procedures about how you get tenure,
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  what you need to publish, and what you submit
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  and when. And most people get it. Yes. Okay?
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  Criteria. calendars and most people are successful.
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  It is like a promotion at work. It is a promotion
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  at work. So the idea that in this department
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  either Julia Roberts or the Andrew Garfield character
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  who's a much younger assistant professor named
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  Hank are vying for tenure And only one of them
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  can be the chosen is ridiculous. So we have this,
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  this ridiculous scenario in which these two are
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  presented as being very close friends, close
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  colleagues. They are both in the same department.
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  But yes, as you say, Lauren, the film presents
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  to us that they are competing for tenure, which
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  as we know is ludicrous. And I have to say if
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  If Lauren and I had to compete for tenure, the
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  entire department would collapse. It really would.
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  I mean, just nobody would ever want only one
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  of us. I think we have to make that very, very
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  clear. So we have then this point of tension
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  in the film. And actually, didn't we go off for
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  tenure at the same time? We did. We did. up at
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  the same time and we both got it. And we both
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  got it. So our own experience refutes this film.
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  Yes, as it does every experience, certainly.
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  Although I do like the idea of these kind of
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  cage match competitions over tenure. We had that
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  in our department. I would not complain, actually,
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  because that might mean that. OK, anyway. So
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  this is a point of controversy and conflict in
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  the relationship of these two people, again,
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  played by Julia Roberts and Andrew Garfield.
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  But what is more of a controversy, although it
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  does relate to the tenure question, is that there
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  is a graduate student, I just want to call her
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  Sydney, because she plays Sydney in The Bear.
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  And in this film she's called Maggie, she is
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  the child of billionaires, and we are told pretty
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  explicitly that she is not a talented graduate
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  student. I know Lauren, but this is a shock.
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  Because, okay, so, but here's the other thing.
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  So she is a black woman. She's a queer woman.
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  She is open about her non -normative gender identity.
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  Yes, is in a relationship with a non -binary
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  person. Right. So she is someone who is very
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  openly expressing her identity and also at the
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  same time talking about I guess, separating herself
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  from the legacy of her parents or at least other
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  people perceive it that way. She doesn't she
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  doesn't have to live in like a crappy New Haven
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  hole. She could live anywhere. Yes. And she and
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  she lives in the crappy New Haven hole. Yes.
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  And the unkind way to describe it is that she
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  is cosplaying a poverty that she does not experience.
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  And this is something that the Julia Roberts
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  character in effect accuses her of later. It's
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  germane to the story. It's germane to the story.
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  And so. we have then a student who is very, very
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  close to the Julia Roberts character, sort of
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  mimics her. There's a sense of real intimacy
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  in the friendship with her. And certainly one
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  of the things that is shocking about this film
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  that really makes it seem incredibly dated and
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  out of this era is we're shown an image of relationships
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  between graduate students and professors that
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  simply does not exist anymore. That is the Julia
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  Roberts character has all these graduate students
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  over to her house. It's very clear that this
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  is a regular occurrence. They are talking about
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  intimate relationships. They're on sofas next
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  to one another. They're touching each other,
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  kissing each other. They know where the bathrooms
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  are. They're very familiar. with the surroundings
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  and Julia Roberts' husband who's a psychiatrist
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  I think, he's there with them too and it feels
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  like they're there with peers of their own age
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  when in fact they're not. They're not and this
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  is a situation that I think is fair to say has
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  not pertained in academia since at least the
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  1990s. That degree of that uh, informality, that
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  intimacy, that physical intimacy between graduate
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  students and professors. It's just completely
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  unheard of now, certainly. And that would not
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  say, of course, you can still have students over
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  to your house, but it is very bounded, right?
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  The rules are very clear of what is acceptable
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  and what isn't. And so we're really shown, we're
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  shown an image of something that simply does
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  not exist anymore in academia. And so for that
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  reason, it's problematic because the party that
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  opens the film, leads to Andrew Garfield and
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  Sydney, Maggie, I want to think about her, going
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  home and going back to Andrew Garfield's place,
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  as I remember it. Yes. For a nightcap. And quote,
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  something bad happens. Something bad happens.
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  Where they cross, he crosses the line. He crosses
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  the line. And we don't know what that is, but
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  they're coming from a place where, in my opinion,
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  the line was crossed already. Long ago. Long
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  ago. Yes. Whatever it was that happened between
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  them caused Maggie to go to Julia Roberts and
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  say Hank has done this to me and I need your
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  help and I'm going to accuse him publicly of
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  this violation and the violation isn't spelled
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  out, but she says, I don't have to say what it
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  is. It made me uncomfortable. He crossed a line
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  and that's it. And all of this is supposed to
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  be enough. for the Alma character, julia roberts’
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  character, right that she's not supposed to need
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  any details she's not supposed to need any right
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  assertion of what happened explicitly and the
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  the maggie character’s very disappointed in her
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  response because she expects right from julia
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  roberts this immediate sympathy right. I'm going
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  to believe anything you say. Anything you say.
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  And when it doesn't happen, then we see over
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  the course of the film, a real sort of intensification
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  of both Maggie's anger, her the complexity of
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  her relationship with Julia Roberts. And of course,
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  we have the Andrew Garfield character who defends
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  his innocence quite stridently. And also brings
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  up accusations of plagiarism. Yes. That, in fact,
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  that's the reason why he invited her to his house
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  and that he was trying to get her to to admit
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  to plagiarism in a more informal situation or
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  environment. And that, in fact, again, the whole
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  issue wasn't sexual harassment. It was plagiarism.
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  Julia Roberts sort of you know at first doesn't
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  really know what to believe because she's very
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  close with Hank but then Hank becomes more aggressive
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  about you know being defended and why isn't Julia
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  Roberts sticking up for him and he eventually
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  is fired. So first the tenure case is in jeopardy
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  and then as you say he is fired and certainly
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  although it's not talked about explicitly in
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  the film as much as perhaps we might expect his
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  career is now over. Right. His career is over.
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  He's going to have to go work at Starbucks or
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  whatever. Okay. Also, let's put in the little,
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  the punctuation that Julia Roberts is vomiting
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  and ill for reasons unknown. We do not know.
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  Throughout. We do not know. So we know that she's
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  sick of some sort, but she's in the bathroom
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  all the time. She's vomiting. She's taking pills.
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  And at one point, she goes into the office of
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  a colleague and writes herself a drug prescription
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  and goes and gets it. and this standing. gets
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  her own career in jeopardy when this is found
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  out. We never have any explanation for why with
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  a chronic illness she needs to forge prescriptions.
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  We're not shown a reluctant doctor. We're not
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  shown anything like this. But what we also don't
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  really understand until maybe the very end of
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  the movie is that it's clear she has no sexual
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  relationship with her husband who is very affectionate.
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  He wants, they sleep in separate bedrooms. He
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  basically keeps saying, you don't want to have
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  anything to do with me. And so we also have this
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  sense of sexual tension between her and the Andrew
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  Garfield character that is playing into this
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  almost sort of triangle with with Maggie and
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  so it's it's a film in which It's a lot of stuff
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  is going on. That's a dumb thing to say, but
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  it's a lot of stuff. All of this, again, the
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  illness and the pills and the husband. It's like
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  you take one of those Boggle cages and you shake
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  it up and there's just all these issues in there.
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  And that's what this is. There's probably 15
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  major hot button political issues. And you can
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  find them in this movie. You can find them in
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  this movie. Like pick a headline, pick a category.
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  It's there. And so we have this classic sort
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  of #metoo story. We have a classic sexual harassment
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  in academia. We have the he said, she said, although
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  again, we never know exactly sort of what it
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  was. We have the added dynamic of this. the sexual
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  tension between Andrew Garfield and Julia Roberts,
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  but also the intimation, very strong, that Maggie
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  is in love with the Julia Roberts character.
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  But she also wants to be her over the course
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  of the film. She starts dressing like her. So
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  we have a Single White Female vibe. Yeah, very
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  much so. She's dressing like her. She's externally
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  our hair like. All of it. She starts to imitate
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  Maggie in ways that are, or imitate Alma, I'm
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  sorry, in ways that are really visible. almost
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  in the beginning, you're like, why are these
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  women dressing so similarly? And then you realize,
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  oh, that's deliberate. Yes. Right. Now, by the
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  end of the film, also, if you haven't forgotten,
• 13:59
  and maybe you have, because it was forgettable,
• 14:02
  Andrew Garfield gets really violent. Yes, he
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  does. And then you're like, oh, maybe he did
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  assault people, person, because he He gets really
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  violent with Julia Roberts. And he's very angry.
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  And of course, he's lost his job and everything
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  he's worked for. And he's kind of crept into
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  this. second apartment. Yeah, which is really
• 14:25
  deus ex machina in real estate terms. Yeah. So
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  yeah, so we have this reveal that they in fact
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  were having an affair, Julia Roberts and Andrew
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  Garfield. But then we have the other reveal that
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  she in fact, and of course, this is so important
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  in terms of understanding the film in a kind
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  of #metoo sense, “believe all women” sense. that
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  she had falsely accused a much older male lover,
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  a friend of her father's, when she was a young
• 14:51
  woman, and that he had ended up committing suicide
• 14:54
  over this. And so there's very much the sense
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  in the film that we don't believe all women,
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  which of course cast out on, again, I want to
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  say Sydney too, on Maggie. But then there is
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  this moment of violence, as you say, from Andrew
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  Garfield, where Like, maybe he did do something.
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  But it's strange that the kind of he said, she
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  said, that ends up not really being an issue
• 15:19
  in the film at all. Well, also because her demise
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  is due to these pills. Due to this prescription
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  thing. Which, and then by the end of the film,
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  she's redeemed herself. She's now a dean. She's
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  written a book. We don't really understand how
• 15:32
  any of that happened. Total mystery. Total mystery.
• 15:35
  But the he said, she said doesn't end up in...
• 15:40
  Really the failure of anyone except maybe Andrew
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  Garfield, of course, but we see it in the very
• 15:46
  last scene. Julia Roberts is with Sydney, Maggie,
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  and they're talking. And now Maggie has a great
• 15:52
  new job and she's going to get married and all
• 15:55
  that kind of stuff. And we see that Julia Roberts
• 15:58
  is a Dean and she looks like she has a bestseller
• 16:01
  out. Who knows about what? But that they've made
• 16:04
  it past this moment. And that, again, there was
• 16:09
  also the moment where Maggie has an article written
• 16:14
  about Julia Roberts. That she's not supportive,
• 16:17
  that she doesn't believe her. And Julia Roberts,
• 16:21
  of course, flips the script on her and says,
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  again, you're this person who's just a person
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  of privilege. A person of privilege and a virtue
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  signaling, all of it. So the thing about the
• 16:32
  film that, for me, was interesting, again, going
• 16:34
  back to that boggle scenario is that it brings
• 16:37
  up some very, very interesting issues in terms
• 16:40
  of generational tensions in academia between
• 16:43
  women. Of course, the issue of sexual harassment
• 16:46
  in education, things like that, which we can
• 16:50
  talk about and different power dynamics. But
• 16:53
  the movie just never knows where it's going.
• 16:57
  And we have a lot of characters that seem either
• 17:01
  irrelevant or undeveloped. And as we said, the
• 17:04
  character that plays Julia Roberts' husband,
• 17:07
  why he comes off as gay in everything. Everything.
• 17:10
  Michael Schulbarg. Michael Schulbarg. Everything
• 17:13
  he now seems. gay, and in this film, of course,
• 17:17
  included. Included. Yeah, very much so. It's
• 17:19
  uncanny. And the whole thing that we've talked
• 17:22
  about just by ourselves, but that made the film
• 17:24
  not work, is the casting of Julia Roberts, because
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  it's the whole - Destructive. The whole idea
• 17:31
  that a woman in her late 50s would be in the
• 17:36
  situation - And a assistant professor without
• 17:37
  tenure. Assistant professor vying for tenure,
• 17:39
  who even has to depend on her husband for all
• 17:42
  these things. This doesn't make any sense. Well,
• 17:44
  also because we are told, and you and I talked
• 17:46
  about this, we're told also in the film that
• 17:48
  she's a superstar philosopher. Right. And so
• 17:51
  we have this bizarro dynamic whereby she's well
• 17:54
  -known. Again, it's not just that she's at Yale.
• 17:56
  Obviously, Yale has lots of untenured assistant
• 17:58
  professors running around, but she's a star in
• 18:00
  the field. She has graduate students that she's
• 18:03
  supervising. Right. But she is an untenured assistant
• 18:07
  professor who, again, is on the same professional
• 18:09
  level as the much younger Andrew Garfield. And
• 18:12
  so one of the things that we talked about when
• 18:14
  we left was, was it just a casting issue where
• 18:16
  it was always intended for a much younger woman,
• 18:19
  and then Julia Roberts says, hey, I'm interested.
• 18:22
  And the answer is yes. And the answer is yes,
• 18:23
  that that's how it played out. And I assume,
• 18:26
  yes, it's probably very hard to say no to Julia
• 18:28
  Roberts if she wants to be in your film, but
• 18:30
  her casting, it really was destructive, I think.
• 18:34
  Unless they rewrote the film so that... She didn't
• 18:38
  have to be vying for tenure, first of all, for
• 18:40
  the problem to work. She could have been a full
• 18:42
  professor anyway, because the vying for tenure
• 18:44
  just went nowhere. And it never played into the
• 18:49
  momentum of the storytelling. But I also think
• 18:51
  it would have been much more interesting to have
• 18:53
  a woman in that role who was maybe 38 to 40.
• 18:58
  That age, because in terms of compressing the
• 19:01
  difference, generational difference, between
• 19:03
  her and Maggie. because in some ways it makes
• 19:06
  a lot of sense that you have julia roberts as
• 19:09
  a Gen X woman who who whose immediate instinct
• 19:12
  is to say wait a minute i need the information
• 19:15
  i need to wait what i know about all of you i
• 19:18
  need to wait details explain it to me what happened.
• 19:21
  And I think it would have been, and so it's very
• 19:24
  easy to fall into the, again, I still want to
• 19:27
  say Sydney, to fall into the Maggie saying, wait
• 19:29
  a minute, this isn't how it works. Right. Right.
• 19:31
  You're supposed to just agree with me. Say, you're
• 19:33
  just supposed to agree with me. Believe me. Believe
• 19:34
  all of it. You don't even need detail. Right.
• 19:36
  Right. And certainly, I mean, anyway. So I think
• 19:40
  that it would have been much more interesting
• 19:41
  to have a woman who was maybe 10 years older,
• 19:45
  who was not quite sort of the Gen Z, but more
• 19:48
  of a millennial who could lean into that a little
• 19:52
  bit more. And especially because of the age similarity
• 19:54
  with Andrew Garfield. They came to this place
• 19:59
  together, right? They both started teaching at
• 20:01
  the same time. They have this affair. Well, the
• 20:04
  other thing, though, that would have made sense
• 20:07
  is that the graduate student was older. Because
• 20:11
  yeah, grad students are any age as we know. And
• 20:13
  so if the graduate student had been a little
• 20:16
  bit older, that also would have made some sense
• 20:19
  in terms of thinking about how we process this
• 20:22
  information. And even with the graduate student
• 20:25
  being closer in age to Andrew Garfield, that
• 20:28
  would have been kind of interesting. So again,
• 20:31
  just the idea that there are 10 years between
• 20:36
  Maggie, Andrew Garfield, and Julia Roberts. They
• 20:40
  were spanning about 30 years between the three
• 20:42
  of them. And even if we're, I mean, some of the
• 20:44
  reviews said, well, we're really not supposed
• 20:46
  to think Julia Roberts is her actual age. We're
• 20:48
  supposed to just imagine her. I'm like, well,
• 20:50
  it's just kind of hard. Does it work that way?
• 20:52
  No. And part of the character, part of what a
• 20:56
  lot of these reviews said made her so brilliant
• 20:57
  in the film is that she was so icy and she's
• 21:00
  had this like really long history and she's had
• 21:02
  all these illnesses and we're supposed to read
• 21:05
  her as old. I mean, so it isn't like, on the
• 21:09
  one hand, we imagine a very young Julia Roberts,
• 21:12
  but on the other hand, we're seeing a current
• 21:15
  age Julia Roberts. Well, and again, Michael Stuhlbarg
• 21:17
  is, what, in his 50s? And so what does it matter
• 21:21
  for that character as well? If you cast a much
• 21:24
  younger woman in that Julia Roberts role, yes,
• 21:27
  well, OK, then do you adjust in terms of the
• 21:28
  husband? And one of the things, of course, we
• 21:30
  talked about. is that there's no need for the
• 21:33
  husband character at all. And it would have been
• 21:35
  so much more powerful if she were single. And
• 21:39
  I think we might have even mentioned this in
• 21:41
  the pod before. If she were single, and then
• 21:44
  you have exactly that dynamic, right? The sort
• 21:47
  of quote unquote childless cat lady professor.
• 21:51
  And that would have been fascinating in terms
• 21:53
  of the sexual and romantic and professional dynamics.
• 21:56
  Right, right. And the fact that she has the husband
• 21:58
  who also I mean, she walks on water with this
• 22:02
  guy. She can do anything. She literally says,
• 22:04
  I don't love you. And he's like, give me more,
• 22:07
  baby. That's OK. That's OK. That's OK. And I
• 22:09
  had an affair with Andrew Garfield. I'm like,
• 22:11
  that's OK. I'm going to go live in my other apartment.
• 22:14
  That's OK. That's OK. That's OK. Whatever. Whatever
• 22:17
  you want. Because one of the things we also talked
• 22:21
  about that is pertinent here, before we move
• 22:23
  on to our other accusations by people, is so
• 22:27
  OK. We talked before about how the film does
• 22:32
  seem to be inspired by Oleanna, something that
• 22:36
  neither one of us watched for this pod but David
• 22:39
  Mamet's play a professor who also is going up
• 22:44
  for tenure who is accused of sexual harassment
• 22:46
  and then rape by an undergraduate student. And
• 22:50
  what is bizarre, I think, about After the Hunt
• 22:52
  is we have kind of a splicing of that kind of
• 22:56
  story with a very, in some ways, modern story
• 22:59
  about sexual harassment in academia and accusations
• 23:02
  in academia with, as we discussed, After the
• 23:05
  Hunt looks like a 1970s film. When we watched
• 23:10
  it, you and I immediately said he's using the
• 23:13
  Woody Allen font. Right. Right. We have the kind
• 23:15
  of Woody Allen music. Right. You have As we talked
• 23:18
  about a few minutes ago, you have this domestic
• 23:21
  intimate environment of the professors and students
• 23:24
  hanging out together, drinking together, touching
• 23:26
  each other, laying on each other. And so that's
• 23:30
  something else that I think weakens this film
• 23:31
  so badly. is that in order to have the true power
• 23:36
  of the dynamics among these three people, you
• 23:38
  need to have today's environment. The door needs
• 23:41
  to stay open, never have them over with alcohol,
• 23:46
  right? The boundaries have to be super clear.
• 23:48
  And so I think that that's in some ways, yes.
• 23:52
  Can you imagine a graduate student and a professor
• 23:55
  saying, oh, well, I'll give you a ride home.
• 23:57
  Come up for a nightcap. I mean, unfortunately,
• 23:59
  I should say, let me amend that. I can imagine
• 24:02
  that situation. But that is a situation that
• 24:06
  is not normative. It's not normative. And all
• 24:09
  of that was presented in the film as it is normative
• 24:12
  in academia. It hasn't been that way in decades.
• 24:15
  In a very long time. No, it hasn't been. And
• 24:19
  again, The whole portrayal of academia, and this
• 24:23
  isn't for those listeners who are saying, well,
• 24:25
  these are two cranky academics who are like,
• 24:28
  we just want it to be exactly the way it is.
• 24:30
  No, no. But it's like do a little bit of homework.
• 24:33
  Talk to an academic. Talk to an academic. Learn
• 24:36
  just a little bit about tenure. And here's why.
• 24:40
  It's not that you need to know everything, but
• 24:44
  this ridiculous myth. that no one gets tenure
• 24:48
  and a publish or perish. It's just not true. And
• 24:52
  that the decision can be made overnight that
• 24:55
  someone can say, well, you know, we've just decided
• 24:57
  five minutes ago to not give you tenure. And
• 24:58
  that there also is nothing behind it. Whereas
• 25:01
  Julia Roberts is like, I don't know if I'm getting
• 25:04
  it. It's a big question mark, coin toss. You're
• 25:08
  like, girl, have you written a book or not? I
• 25:11
  mean, that's... Let's see the outside evaluators.
• 25:14
  Yeah, let's just see it all because Otherwise
• 25:17
  it makes no sense in the same way that the familiarity
• 25:20
  that the almost intimacy almost the intimacy
• 25:23
  between graduate students and professors and
• 25:26
  also professors of different ranks Yeah, all
• 25:28
  kind of laying on each other awesome So so no
• 25:34
  one at quote Yale actually talked to anyone at
• 25:38
  Yale. And if they did touch people at Yale and
• 25:40
  the Yale told them, people told them that this
• 25:42
  is the way it is, then that's a problem. Then
• 25:44
  that's a problem. Well, and maybe this should
• 25:46
  be the last thing that we talk about. One thing
• 25:49
  you and I have talked about before is European
• 25:53
  directors who keep writing films as if American
• 25:57
  adults smoke. And we have that here. We have
• 26:02
  that here. Smoking in bars. Smoking in bars.
• 26:05
  Smoking in houses. Smoking in houses. And it
• 26:07
  really is so symbolic, and I think we see that
• 26:09
  in this film. This is a director who has no idea
• 26:14
  what American academia is like. Again, even Yale
• 26:17
  today. It's not that we don't know it because
• 26:19
  we don't teach at Yale. No. Sadly. Or maybe not.
• 26:25
  Or maybe not. That's true. Let's amend that.
• 26:27
  But it's, again, so clear. It is a completely
• 26:30
  outdated vision that just absolutely craters
• 26:34
  this film as having anything to say. Yeah, it
• 26:36
  really does. It really does. And it's not even
• 26:39
  a film about academia that I would show my own
• 26:43
  students. I agree. My own students would find
• 26:45
  this film just dumbing. They would fall asleep.
• 26:50
  Yeah. And, you know, we almost fell asleep because,
• 26:52
  you know. So, not a success, but still we have
• 26:57
  an accuser, we don't know the truth of things,
• 27:00
  although it is hinted to us, we have a kind of
• 27:03
  odd resolution, and we do have a life ruined,
• 27:07
  the Andrew Garfield character, and so let's talk
• 27:10
  about some more accusations. Some more ruining
• 27:13
  of lives, some more bad behavior. And let's talk
• 27:18
  about The Children's Hour. How about that? An
• 27:22
  older film came out in 1961 and directed by William
• 27:29
  Wyler. Star -studded cast. Star -studded cast.
• 27:32
  Audrey Hepburn playing a teacher. School mistress,
• 27:37
  can we say? Yep. Shirley McLean playing her fellow
• 27:41
  school mistress and fellow teacher and confidant
• 27:45
  and bestie. And bestie. And so this is from a
• 27:49
  play by Lillian Hellman that had been very successful
• 27:52
  on Broadway. In the 30s. In the 30s and very
• 27:54
  controversial because it deals with an accusation
• 27:57
  of lesbianism. Yes. But then made into a film
• 28:01
  in 1961, again, another very successful film,
• 28:04
  a young Shirley MacLaine with already an established
• 28:08
  star in Audrey Hepburn as her partner. I mean,
• 28:11
  scene partner, I should say. And so we have,
• 28:14
  in this case, two women running a school. They
• 28:18
  were college classmates, very close friends.
• 28:20
  And it's a school for girls. And as far as we
• 28:23
  can tell, it seems to be very wealthy young girls
• 28:25
  with local families. And there is a very badly
• 28:30
  behaved young girl, Mary, who is a liar, wants
• 28:33
  lots of attention. And Mary's grandmother is
• 28:36
  an important patron of the school, and maybe
• 28:39
  with others as well. And maybe with others, yes.
• 28:40
  But Mary's grandmother is referred to over and
• 28:43
  over again in terms of somebody who is funding
• 28:45
  this school. Yes, and is very well connected
• 28:47
  with the other families who are sending their
• 28:49
  daughters there. And is also related to Audrey
• 28:53
  Hepburn's, while he will become a fiance, Joe.
• 28:57
  Joe. played by James Garner. Right. And I've
• 28:59
  said, I think James Garner is a little miscast
• 29:01
  in this. I don't really see that. I don't really
• 29:02
  see the, the chemistry between him and Audrey
• 29:04
  Hepburn. But anyway, that is true. And so, uh,
• 29:09
  basically it's a combination of Mary being a
• 29:12
  kind of bad seed, lying, uh, bullying other girls,
• 29:17
  disliking the fact that she is punished by Karen
• 29:19
  and Martha for her bad behavior. It's a combination
• 29:22
  of just wanting revenge on the two of them and
• 29:25
  actually overhearing. a conversation between
• 29:28
  Martha and her flighty actress aunt who lives
• 29:31
  with them that leads her to accuse them of being
• 29:36
  lovers to her grandmother, which absolutely craters
• 29:38
  the school. All of the parents pull their daughters
• 29:40
  out. It is devastating. And interestingly, it
• 29:44
  isn't just that Mary tells her grandmother, but
• 29:48
  that the grandmother then infers information
• 29:51
  she hears first from the child. from information
• 29:55
  she then hears from the aunt. To conclude that
• 30:01
  the two women have been involved in quote unnatural
• 30:03
  relations Yeah, so just to clarify this the the
• 30:06
  little girl who's up to no good says to her grandmother
• 30:09
  I know all these terrible things things that
• 30:12
  are so awful I can only whisper them to you the
• 30:14
  grandmother can't even really believe it but
• 30:16
  she wants to validate it for herself and when
• 30:18
  she goes back to the school and the aunt says
• 30:22
  yeah, those women are always together and You
• 30:25
  know Shirley McLaine seemed angry when Audrey
• 30:29
  Hepburn and her soon -to -be husband will get
• 30:33
  married. Jealous of Joe. And she validates this
• 30:35
  narrative that isn't about sexuality at all,
• 30:39
  but to the grandmother, it feels that way. Although
• 30:43
  I think that it is the case that we have the
• 30:45
  hint from the aunt that she does see this as
• 30:48
  a sexual relationship in the sense that She or
• 30:52
  at least a romantic one, right? Not just a close
• 30:54
  friendship. And the reason why I say that is
• 30:56
  because she says you were always that way as
• 30:58
  a little girl. Yes, right? You always have very
• 31:00
  you were jealous of your female friends. You
• 31:03
  didn't date anyone, have never had a boyfriend.
• 31:06
  And so I think there is that undertone there
• 31:07
  with the aunt. Well, I guess what I felt from
• 31:10
  the aunt was the aunt was saying she thinks Shirley
• 31:13
  MacLaine is gay. She doesn't necessarily think
• 31:16
  that Audrey Hepburn is gay. Yes, that they have
• 31:18
  a relationship. That they have a relationship.
• 31:19
  But yes, I think she definitely draws the conclusion
• 31:22
  that Shirley MacLaine desires a relationship
• 31:26
  with Audrey Hepburn and maybe not and vice versa.
• 31:29
  Well, and of course, the other thing about the
• 31:31
  grandmother And I think this is probably the
• 31:34
  most disturbing part in some ways to me. So Mary
• 31:37
  says to her grandmother, I hear strange noises
• 31:40
  when they're in the room together late at night.
• 31:43
  But then the other thing is that when she whispers
• 31:46
  in the grandmother's ear, which we don't hear,
• 31:49
  but. The intimation is very strong, that what
• 31:53
  Mary is whispering is some of the content she
• 31:57
  has gotten from the secret sex book that she's
• 32:00
  been reading secretly in her room. And so again,
• 32:03
  we don't know that, and it's probably for the
• 32:04
  best, but that it really is this extremely concrete
• 32:08
  transmission. They are having a sexual relationship,
• 32:12
  and I have overheard it, because what of course
• 32:14
  the grandmother says is, well, what two people
• 32:16
  want to do on their own is fine. The grandmother
• 32:19
  keeps insisting, I care about the fact that this
• 32:22
  is in front of children. How would children know
• 32:26
  about these sex acts unless basically, and for
• 32:29
  some reason nobody ever says, well, maybe she
• 32:30
  read a book, which is the reality. And so this
• 32:34
  is the grandmother's defense, right? That these
• 32:35
  two women, if they want to do that, but it can't
• 32:38
  be that they're running a school for children
• 32:39
  and all the children leave the school and the
• 32:41
  school collapses. And Mary ends up. blackmailing
• 32:44
  her girlfriend, Veronica Cartwright, who then
• 32:47
  was in tons of Things, who's a kleptomaniac,
• 32:51
  and says, well, if you don't confirm my story
• 32:54
  about these two being lovers, then I'm going
• 32:57
  to tell everybody that you stole all the stuff,
• 33:00
  and they're all the cops, and all that. So it
• 33:02
  leads to the complete demise of the school, the
• 33:06
  complete isolation of these two women, and their
• 33:09
  social isolation as pariahs. And they're just
• 33:14
  alone together although Audrey Hepburn's fiance
• 33:17
  Joe is still Hanging around supportive supportive
• 33:21
  and says look we can all leave together even
• 33:24
  you Shirley McClaine come with us come with us
• 33:28
  and you know, we'll get married and it'll be
• 33:30
  okay and They're having this conversation and
• 33:34
  then Audrey Hepburn says to him Ask the question
• 33:38
  that you want to ask. And he does. And he does.
• 33:42
  And he does. And he says, you know, were you
• 33:44
  ever into her? Or some version of that. Yeah,
• 33:47
  were you lovers? Right. And from then on, Audrey
• 33:52
  Hepburn says, well, it can never be. And see,
• 33:55
  and I actually thought that was a very unfair
• 33:57
  moment. Because she pushes him. She does. And
• 34:00
  pushes him. And he says, I don't need to know.
• 34:02
  I believe you. I don't want to know. I haven't
• 34:05
  given any thought. And approximately a dozen
• 34:08
  times she says to him, come on, just ask it.
• 34:11
  It's okay if you just ask. And then of course,
• 34:14
  as soon as he does ask, she turns and says, well,
• 34:16
  I'm sorry you asked that question. And so now
• 34:18
  we can never be together and I'm breaking our
• 34:20
  engagement and the relationship ends. Yeah. And
• 34:22
  she also assumes for him that he will never be
• 34:27
  able to think about anything else. Even when
• 34:29
  they have children and have a, you know, go live
• 34:31
  somewhere else and have a totally different life,
• 34:35
  then he'll always be thinking what she loves
• 34:37
  with Shirley MacLaine. Even when it's very clear
• 34:39
  that they have a passionate physical relationship.
• 34:43
  Yes. And that is made very, very clear to us.
• 34:46
  That she wants children right away. She wants
• 34:47
  children right away. They're going out in the
• 34:49
  car, presumably necking or whatever. Right. We
• 34:51
  see these kind of passionate kisses between them.
• 34:52
  Sure. And of course, the other thing we should
• 34:54
  probably bring up is that the two women, they
• 34:57
  sue the grandmother for libel. I'm sorry, for
• 35:00
  slander. And they lose the case because the flighty
• 35:03
  aunt won't come back to testify. And so they
• 35:07
  are impoverished. They are famous, publicly famous,
• 35:10
  because of this case that they've lost. And in
• 35:13
  some ways, I think the most disturbing little
• 35:15
  moment in this film is when they are going out
• 35:17
  to take a walk. and the men in the truck drive
• 35:21
  by and sort of stop and look at them. And I think
• 35:24
  there is this real sense of physical danger for
• 35:27
  them about assault, about physical violence.
• 35:30
  And of course, Joe is this kind of protector
• 35:33
  for them, but that relationship does collapse.
• 35:36
  And eventually the lie collapses as well, that
• 35:39
  it is realized that no, in fact, they have not
• 35:42
  been lovers. But then we have the kicker in that
• 35:44
  Shirley MacLaine, in effect, will say, well,
• 35:47
  Yes, I'm in love with you and I had these feelings
• 35:50
  and these feelings and and they didn't come to
• 35:53
  light until the accusation happened right and
• 35:56
  so it is of course fascinating to think well
• 35:59
  the mechanics of that right in terms of this
• 36:02
  little girl who well Well, okay. Do we think
• 36:06
  that Mary who again is total bad seed total bad
• 36:09
  seed right the evil child right unapologetically
• 36:12
  evil evil child. Do we think again? That she
• 36:16
  is halfway honest and believing that they are
• 36:19
  lovers. There's reason for her to be halfway
• 36:23
  honest and however she's so evil and she's so
• 36:27
  conniving and she's so untrustworthy that you
• 36:31
  even if there is intimacy or you know some some
• 36:35
  sort of romantic relationship between them or
• 36:38
  an emotional relationship between them. You just
• 36:42
  don't want to give this girl any credit I agree
• 36:45
  and it's unfortunate that it takes the quote
• 36:47
  lie to bring out the truth and of course not
• 36:51
  of course, but sadly the truth leads to Shirley
• 36:56
  McLaine committing suicide because I mean think
• 37:02
  about why and because she wants Audrey Hepburn
• 37:04
  to live her life happily. She wants her to go
• 37:06
  back to Joe or she just can't bear the thought
• 37:09
  that she's attracted to women. That's left kind
• 37:13
  of a question mark. It is and it's I think a
• 37:15
  not very satisfying one either because it's not
• 37:19
  this and one thing that is important is she clearly
• 37:23
  doesn't expect Karen. to come back and say, oh,
• 37:27
  well, I love you too, and let's run off. And
• 37:30
  she's not expecting that. She does seem distraught
• 37:33
  at this discovery of her own sexuality. But of
• 37:37
  course, Karen's response is not necessarily a
• 37:41
  good one, in that Karen's response is initially,
• 37:45
  this isn't true, why do you think that? You're
• 37:47
  upset, you know. So much has happened, you're
• 37:49
  tired. You just think of these crazy things that
• 37:51
  aren't, you know, a good night's sleep, you'll
• 37:53
  get over it. And so we do have the classic, and
• 37:55
  of course, this is something that you teach and
• 37:57
  talk about much more than I do, but we do have
• 38:00
  this kind of classic moment at the end of the
• 38:02
  film where, quote unquote, the gay has to die,
• 38:05
  which is a trope, but I don't think it's explained
• 38:09
  very well. Why is she committing suicide? Does
• 38:14
  she think that Karen will go back to Joe? Doesn't
• 38:16
  she realize that this will be a long -lasting,
• 38:20
  devastating event for Karen since they've been
• 38:22
  friends for so long? And in some ways the ending
• 38:26
  seems kind of cheap to me, I will say. However,
• 38:29
  in the time period, there is no other. I hear
• 38:33
  you. And so that is why that happens. And again,
• 38:38
  an openly gay character, even as reluctantly
• 38:43
  open as she is. does have to kill herself in
• 38:47
  this framework and also in terms of Cold War
• 38:53
  milieu and all of that. And again, Hellman herself
• 38:58
  had all kinds of sexual partners and lived a
• 39:04
  very complicated life and also a life also based
• 39:07
  on rumors and innuendos and all sorts of... Vibes
• 39:14
  that that we see in this play and you know are
• 39:16
  in the play and and then then the movie Very
• 39:20
  very Hellman esque, but but yeah, it it's it's
• 39:24
  very very sad and although the very at the very
• 39:28
  end of it when we see Audrey Hepburn leaving
• 39:30
  leaving the cemetery behind the tree and we do
• 39:33
  not see them reuniting no absolutely not and
• 39:35
  that's very important I agree that Whatever has
• 39:39
  been said between them is is done is done And
• 39:42
  that it doesn't matter now that Shirley MacLaine's
• 39:45
  not in the picture. And that also they're no
• 39:50
  longer in the papers for being lovers and that
• 39:53
  their reputations are intact. That it's done.
• 39:58
  It's interesting because I was thinking about
• 39:59
  this is a weird connection to make, but so Henry
• 40:02
  James writes this novel The Bostonians right
• 40:04
  about feminists early feminists in in Boston
• 40:06
  and the ending of this book is very famous because
• 40:09
  the the suffragette the sort of blue stocking
• 40:12
  who has had this very very close relationship
• 40:14
  with the younger feminist Verena, Verena ends
• 40:17
  up marrying this very masculine man and so you
• 40:21
  have the masculine man now married to the feminist
• 40:23
  Verena who's sort of like no you need to stay
• 40:25
  away from her and the the older suffragette,
• 40:29
  quote unquote, blue stocking, she's miserable,
• 40:31
  something terrible is happening to her, and it's
• 40:33
  very much the sense of like, she has been excluded,
• 40:35
  she has been pushed out, and Verena the young
• 40:37
  feminist is now with this sort of solid, very
• 40:39
  aggressive masculine man. And in some ways, you
• 40:42
  can imagine an ending of The Children's Hour.
• 40:44
  There is a version of that, right? But with the
• 40:47
  older character, the Shirley MacLean character
• 40:49
  in this case, again, sort of being excluded,
• 40:51
  being dead, and this resolution of Audrey Hepburn
• 40:55
  back with James Garner, which again, as you
• 40:57
  say, this doesn't happen. And so it is a very
• 41:00
  different kind of ending than we have in something
• 41:03
  like The Bostonians, where it's, nope, she's
• 41:05
  just going to be on her own. She is not going
• 41:07
  back to the arms of the man. There's no affirmation.
• 41:12
  of the Audrey Hepburn characters saying, I'm
• 41:15
  receding back into respectability, right? I'm
• 41:17
  going back to this heterosexual relationship.
• 41:19
  I mean, she is heterosexual. There's every indication
• 41:21
  that she'll go on to have a relationship with
• 41:23
  a man. But it's not this kind of, we've solved
• 41:26
  that problem and now I'm going back to this sort
• 41:29
  of basis. Although interestingly, going back
• 41:31
  to After the Hunt, the Maggie character resolves
• 41:35
  her life that way. Oh yeah. In that she says,
• 41:38
  of course, you know, homosexuality or her being
• 41:41
  marrying a woman doesn't matter anymore in 2025,
• 41:44
  especially in New Haven, right? But her happy
• 41:47
  ending is, I'm marrying a woman, I met this great
• 41:50
  woman who works at MoMA or something, right?
• 41:52
  And I'm living my life and I'm going on. It's
• 41:54
  respectability. It's respectability. She ends
• 41:57
  up that way. And of course, Julia Roberts does
• 41:59
  too. the Dean and I guess a better relationship
• 42:03
  with her husband. But it's interesting that even
• 42:06
  the queer character in After the Hunt goes to
• 42:09
  respectability. Yeah, and bourgeois respectability.
• 42:12
  Yes. And that's actually something we should
• 42:14
  also point out about The Children's Hour because
• 42:15
  to me, one of the most interesting lines is when
• 42:18
  Karen and Martha are having that big conversation
• 42:20
  at the end, when Martha ends up saying, I do
• 42:24
  love you, they have this little moment where
• 42:26
  they say, well, okay. other women live in these
• 42:29
  relationships. They have sexual and romantic
• 42:31
  relationships. So why is it in effect so bad
• 42:35
  even if we were that way? And the argument that
• 42:38
  they give, it's dependent upon place and to some
• 42:41
  extent upon class and commitment because the
• 42:44
  answer is, well, okay, they might be in Greenwich
• 42:46
  Village or whatever. But the answer is also if
• 42:50
  they know their sexual identity if they are confident
• 42:54
  in their sexual identity then they just live
• 42:56
  their lives right and and that but they of course
• 42:59
  say but we are not quote -unquote like that until
• 43:02
  we can have that sense of validation and that
• 43:04
  we're living our truth or whatever and i think
• 43:06
  it is important to understand that that is being
• 43:10
  said. Right in 1961 I wonder about the original
• 43:14
  play and if there was a line like that in when
• 43:17
  the play first came out in 30s and of course
• 43:19
  I have no idea I haven't read the play but that
• 43:20
  that's a very interesting line to me because
• 43:22
  I think that that's a natural response of someone
• 43:24
  seeing the film in 1961 to say well wait a minute
• 43:27
  there are lesbians living in New York City or
• 43:29
  whatever right what's the problem sure sure absolutely
• 43:32
  absolutely okay so we have an accusation that
• 43:35
  is ends up being true. Right. Even if it is not
• 43:40
  delivered in a sense of truth telling. Right.
• 43:45
  Is that fair to say? Yes. Yes. Yes. And again,
• 43:49
  just to point of comparison, an accusation that
• 43:53
  initially needs to be validated a few times.
• 43:55
  Yes. Unlike After the Hunt where the accusation
• 43:59
  is Is it? Is it? Yeah. And it's barely an accusation
• 44:03
  in the sense of detail, right? It's just as we
• 44:06
  talked about earlier, it's just across the line.
• 44:08
  And we do have these different layers of details,
• 44:11
  right? The whispered thing to the grandmother
• 44:12
  and the conversation and the verifying. And because,
• 44:16
  of course, there is the sense that these relationships
• 44:20
  are, there's many different possibilities about
• 44:22
  the relationship between these two women. Yes,
• 44:24
  absolutely. Who, after all, are living together.
• 44:26
  Yes. Living together as the co -heads of the
• 44:28
  school. Sure, sure. okay so let's um it does
• 44:33
  have a downer ending i would say it well let's
• 44:36
  repeat that it does have a downer although as
• 44:37
  you say but audrey heppern is very empowered
• 44:39
  and we have that wonderful sort of marching out
• 44:41
  with her head held high okay so let's talk about
• 44:44
  another um film in this case from 1956 that isn't
• 44:49
  quite about an accusation although we do have
• 44:52
  sort of an accusatory vibe here we definitely
• 44:55
  also have themes of sexuality sexual identity
• 44:59
  masculinity, femininity in a sense, and this
• 45:02
  is Tea and Sympathy. 1956 set at a boarding school,
• 45:09
  much like The Children’s Hour. And we have again
• 45:12
  dynamics of power differential between teachers
• 45:15
  and students, but we also have a weird sort of
• 45:18
  in the middle person of Laura, the main character,
• 45:23
  the wife of a coach. And we consistently wonder
• 45:25
  why she married him. We can talk about that in
• 45:28
  a minute. And the close relationship that she
• 45:30
  has with one of the students at the school who
• 45:32
  is living in their dormitory, the dormitory that
• 45:35
  they live in. And so the student Tom is not very
• 45:39
  popular with his classmates because of his, quote,
• 45:44
  difference. He is more, in their eyes, effeminate.
• 45:48
  He knows how to sew. He knows how to cook. He
• 45:51
  wants to be a folk singer. Very 1956. He is going
• 45:55
  to be in a play where he... performing as a woman
• 45:59
  wearing a dress he doesn't know how to quote
• 46:01
  walk the right way and he is really tormented
• 46:06
  by the other guys throughout most of the film
• 46:09
  and who Not only accuse him of being gay and
• 46:16
  they call him sister boy, and he's not man enough
• 46:19
  But his own father is incredibly disappointed.
• 46:22
  His own father who attended this school who's
• 46:25
  close to this coach continues to Harp on why
• 46:29
  his son can't just man up and be like the other
• 46:32
  guys and have a crew cut. Play sports. Play sports.
• 46:36
  And he doesn't play a sport, actually. Well,
• 46:38
  okay, so I just want to pick apart the tennis.
• 46:42
  So when I watched this, and I hadn't seen this
• 46:44
  film in a while, I had forgotten the tennis part.
• 46:48
  Here is the thing that is so funny. And this
• 46:51
  is, I guess, a dated thing about tennis. He is
• 46:56
  this really good tennis player, Tom. And he's
• 46:58
  playing against another guy who they say swings
• 47:01
  like a man, which I assume to be a full swing
• 47:03
  and a follow through. And Tom has what looks
• 47:07
  more like a slice. Now, if we were to see tennis
• 47:11
  today, somebody like Djokovic or any of the main
• 47:15
  guys, Alvarez, they have slice all the time.
• 47:18
  There is nothing effeminate about a slice. And
• 47:22
  again, Federer has this incredible backhand slice
• 47:25
  he's really famous for. So there's an interesting
• 47:28
  evolution of how that style of play has come
• 47:33
  to be sort of now gotten more masculinity attached
• 47:38
  to it. Because watching the two of them play,
• 47:40
  I was like, yeah, that guy's got a slice. I mean,
• 47:42
  that's how he's winning. And slices are hard to
• 47:45
  return. I mean, there's no joke in that. So it's
• 47:48
  just interesting that He is an athlete, he's
• 47:51
  a good athlete, and he's still somebody who is
• 47:56
  the, you know, recipient of a lot of... sort
• 48:01
  of bullying and turmoil and things like that.
• 48:06
  And his own father, again, is the worst of them
• 48:08
  all. Absolutely. And again, even if his own father
• 48:11
  gave him a little bit of support or said, you
• 48:14
  know, son, it's okay, you know, you can do lots
• 48:16
  of things, or the theater, you know, people used
• 48:19
  to dress up as women all the time, Shakespeare,
• 48:21
  whatever, he doesn't do that. He just continues
• 48:24
  to harp on him. And again, So there's this interesting
• 48:28
  relationship between Tom and Laura, who you also
• 48:31
  know is lonely, who feels like she's dealing
• 48:34
  with major toxic masculinity and being married
• 48:37
  to, what's his name? bill bill and just and she
• 48:41
  had been married before to this other kinder
• 48:45
  gentler man whom she had married when she was
• 48:48
  18 and he was a died in world war two okay so
• 48:52
  she loved this other man very much so much so
• 48:55
  that she still celebrates her that was very odd
• 48:58
  but okay And she tells Tom, you remind me of
• 49:02
  my first husband. And so the whole movie, for
• 49:06
  me at least, I mean, I don't think we would call
• 49:08
  it queer coded. I think it's out and out. Tom
• 49:12
  is a gay man. Oh, see, I disagree with that,
• 49:14
  though. I took the whole movie as... Tom is a
• 49:18
  gay man, and this movie is a way to shame him
• 49:23
  and to box him into a straight envelope and to
• 49:26
  give him a happy, straight ending. Oh, I just
• 49:29
  agree. That's interesting. I read it as a cautionary
• 49:33
  tale to gay people. Oh, I totally disagree. Oh,
• 49:37
  that's so interesting. He's gay and he doesn't
• 49:40
  want like the scene with the waitress where he's
• 49:43
  supposed to hook up with her and then tell everybody
• 49:45
  about it he's not interested in her because she's
• 49:48
  a woman and he's Not getting sex with Laura in
• 49:53
  the film He has sex with Laura because he he's
• 49:56
  trying to prove to himself that he's that he
• 49:59
  is not gay, but he is But he's gay. Well, he's
• 50:03
  gay. No. Well, here's the counter. And it goes
• 50:05
  back to what you just said about the tennis stroke,
• 50:08
  because one of the things that I think does come
• 50:10
  up a lot in this film, and Tom himself even says
• 50:13
  it, things that do not need to be coded as effeminate.
• 50:19
  When he does them, they are read as effeminate.
• 50:23
  Right. And the tennis is a good example of that
• 50:27
  where yes he's he's an athlete and he should
• 50:30
  be praised by the other boys for doing this but
• 50:34
  he says this to his roommate his roommate who
• 50:36
  is sympathetic for much of the film where he
• 50:38
  says I don't even think about how I walk and
• 50:41
  why is it that things you don't get or the walking
• 50:44
  right I mean his hair it's so funny that his
• 50:46
  dad is obsessed with his hair and he says and
• 50:49
  he says look. a crew cut doesn't look good on
• 50:53
  me. He's like, I've tried it before. It just
• 50:55
  doesn't look good on me. I like this. I think
• 50:57
  this is more flattering. And so to me, I do actually
• 51:01
  think that all of those times when Laura says
• 51:05
  and tries to say to Bill, she says to Bill, you
• 51:09
  have one narrow vision of masculinity, right?
• 51:13
  The whole point about Tom is that Tom is showing
• 51:16
  us a wider spectrum of masculinity. And here,
• 51:20
  you know what, I'm going to agree. There is a
• 51:22
  gay character in this film. It is Bill. Because
• 51:25
  the whole point is Bill is the guy who's like,
• 51:29
  I'm super repressed. I'm going mountain climbing
• 51:32
  with the boys. So we are told about Bill. Right.
• 51:36
  He does not want to have sex with his wife. Right.
• 51:38
  Right. He does not want to touch her. He does
• 51:40
  not want to be affectionate. And she's hot. And
• 51:42
  she's well, we can talk about that in a second.
• 51:44
  I think she's hot. I don't know. Deborah Kerr
• 51:46
  has just never done it for me. I just think she's
• 51:48
  so like, I don't know. I think she's hot. I think
• 51:51
  she's sexier in The King and I actually. But
• 51:52
  anyway, but but we do have I mean, Bill is this
• 51:55
  classic kind of homosocial guy. Right. But I
• 51:57
  think also we when we get the added bit that
• 52:01
  he will not Sleep with her because she says this
• 52:04
  right. She's like right touch each other. You
• 52:05
  don't touch me Why and they've only been married
• 52:07
  for friggin year, right? And so to me what I
• 52:11
  think is interesting bill is the totally closeted
• 52:14
  hyper masculine right and that but then Again,
• 52:19
  the point of Tom is to say you know what a guy
• 52:21
  can sew a straight Heterosexual man he can sew
• 52:25
  he can have longer hair. He can be interested
• 52:28
  in the theater because of course we're also told
• 52:31
  that Tom does end up getting married. He doesn't
• 52:33
  run off again to basically living through this
• 52:35
  partner. Again, to me, I think this is all Hollywood
• 52:38
  saying, this guy is gay. And you might be right,
• 52:42
  OK? I'm willing to go if Bill is gay too. But
• 52:45
  he encounters another gay man, which triggers
• 52:49
  his own repressed queer feeling, is OK? I think
• 52:55
  that it's all a cover up that Tom stuff is all
• 52:58
  a cover up. There's no world in which Tom is
• 53:01
  not is again going to the village and going to
• 53:05
  live with a partner and we never see him again.
• 53:08
  This is this is Hollywood again saying this is
• 53:11
  what can happen for you if you're gay and, you
• 53:14
  know, kind of pray the gay way. And I completely
• 53:17
  disagree. And that's that's the way because because
• 53:19
  if that's the message of the film or in general,
• 53:22
  I just absolutely don't think that we can say,
• 53:25
  every representation of a man who, again, likes
• 53:29
  theater, likes to sew, I don't think we can say
• 53:33
  that means that he is super explicitly a closeted
• 53:37
  gay man. But again, Hollywood - He has sex with
• 53:40
  a woman in this film. I'm just gonna say that
• 53:41
  again. He has sex with a woman whose husband
• 53:46
  is not having sex with her. Right. Who's the
• 53:49
  gay one? The one who's having sex with her? Right.
• 53:51
  But she later says in the letter, right? Yes,
• 53:54
  that letter is so annoying. The letter is, to
• 53:57
  me, the letter is sort of the smoking bullet.
• 54:00
  Whereas, I mean, she really kind of talks about
• 54:02
  she shouldn't have done it, and she should have
• 54:04
  been thinking more about her husband than about
• 54:08
  Tom. And again, to me, it's the Hollywood message
• 54:11
  of he's gay, but he fixed it. And you can too.
• 54:19
  That's the way that I read it. And I don't think
• 54:25
  that, again, Hollywood is clever enough at this
• 54:29
  time to say we're actually going to... think
• 54:33
  about alternative visions of masculinity. But
• 54:36
  that's where I think it's important. I mean,
• 54:37
  it comes from a novel, right? It comes from a
• 54:39
  novel. And I do think, yes, the letter at the
• 54:41
  end is ridiculous. But that, of course, is more
• 54:45
  a focus of rescuing Deborah Kerr, who is, of
• 54:47
  course, this massive star in 1956, as unappealing
• 54:50
  as I find her. She's a huge star in 1956. And
• 54:53
  so I think it's more saying, well, wait a minute.
• 54:55
  We just endorsed adultery that this woman isn't
• 54:59
  and she does leave her husband she leaves Bill
• 55:01
  sure right so we don't have that restoration
• 55:03
  of oh okay they're all happy now so but Bill
• 55:06
  of course has not gotten married again Bill still
• 55:09
  living there with the boys in the household going
• 55:11
  on the camping trips right you know so I think
• 55:14
  we might have some Brokeback Mountains going
• 55:16
  on with Bill and the camping trips I think we
• 55:19
  had an experiment gone An experiment that Lin
• 55:24
  led to a lifelong of more experiments. And that
• 55:28
  Tom, later in his life, as we go to see him,
• 55:30
  will be on the down low. I mean, there's just
• 55:33
  no question about that. Okay, here's the thing.
• 55:35
  So I hate to say it, and I'm not saying this
• 55:38
  is wrong, but you are reading Tea and Sympathy
• 55:41
  as if it was... written by Tennessee Williams.
• 55:45
  No, I mean, and think about it that way, right?
• 55:47
  So if we kind of cross Tea and Sympathy, you
• 55:50
  know, with something like Cat on a Hot Tin Roof,
• 55:53
  right? Again, sort of the closeted young guy
• 55:55
  who was sexually experiments with another man.
• 55:58
  And, you know, then it becomes hell for his wife
• 56:00
  or whatever. And so I just, I, I think that yes,
• 56:04
  you might be right that he is that that Hollywood
• 56:06
  can't confront it. Nevertheless, I think that
• 56:09
  it is so interestingly explicit in the film.
• 56:13
  This is Laura's whole point, right? Again, that
• 56:16
  spectrum of masculinity and that people do not
• 56:19
  need to be shoved into these narrow categories
• 56:23
  and told that, okay, this is the whole point
• 56:27
  of what she says, right? If a man has these interests,
• 56:30
  it doesn't mean he's gay. And yes, you might
• 56:33
  be saying that the film is arguing the opposite
• 56:37
  of what Laura is saying, but I think she is a
• 56:42
  genuine mouthpiece. And that just doesn't make
• 56:45
  sense to me that the film is arguing against
• 56:48
  what we hear her say so often in this film. All
• 56:53
  of these different kinds of activities, interests,
• 56:56
  personae, clothes, whatever. That can still be
• 57:00
  a straight man. Yes, because she is a straight
• 57:03
  woman and she wants to sleep with him. She wants
• 57:08
  him to... It's a Will and Grace situation. Okay.
• 57:17
  Okay. Yeah. I mean, but see, again, that's, I
• 57:19
  don't know. I'm going to maintain. Bill is the
• 57:23
  gay man. I don't disagree about Bill. I'm okay.
• 57:26
  I agree with you on Bill, but I'm seeing. But
• 57:30
  again, it's 1956. Then why, he just needs to
• 57:32
  like run up to the city and just. Can't do it.
• 57:37
  Can't do it on film. He's a novelist. Can't do
• 57:39
  it on film. Can't do it on film. Well, I don't
• 57:41
  mean, I, yeah. I'm just saying that. Celluloid
• 57:45
  Closet, you know, watch it over and over. There's
• 57:48
  no happy ending for gay people. Okay. No, and
• 57:53
  I understand that. I absolutely understand that.
• 57:55
  But I also think, I think, and certainly you
• 57:58
  as a historian of 20th century popular culture,
• 58:00
  right, you again, you think about this much more
• 58:02
  than I do. But I do think, right, in 1956, even
• 58:07
  that lesson that there is a broad spectrum of
• 58:11
  masculinity. that doesn't involve, or that does
• 58:16
  involve all of these other things. That to me
• 58:19
  is enough of a radical statement in that film.
• 58:25
  And what's interesting though, of course, thinking
• 58:27
  about the other things that we talked about.
• 58:29
  So we have basically a high school junior, because
• 58:33
  it refers to him coming back the following year.
• 58:35
  We have a high school junior who basically is
• 58:37
  going out to have sex with a prostitute, although
• 58:41
  it doesn't happen. in a very disturbing kind
• 58:43
  of way, and then has sex with his headmaster's
• 58:50
  teacher, whatever, I'm sorry, wife. And this
• 58:53
  is all presented very much, of course, in a different
• 58:55
  way than it would be presented today. So certainly
• 58:58
  today, the idea might be, oh, well, she's sexually
• 59:00
  harassing him. She's very forward. She is forward.
• 59:03
  But he also is very forward with her. He kind
• 59:05
  of stalks her, in a sense, right? He's always
• 59:08
  kind of following her, wants to find out where
• 59:10
  she is. And this is the other thing, then, that
• 59:12
  you need to explain. Why is he constantly...
• 59:17
  Because he's a gay man who needs comfort with
• 59:20
  the one person who can understand him. him when
• 59:23
  he is surrounded by people who are ostracizing
• 59:26
  him, who are bullying him. So why kiss her in
• 59:28
  the first place? Well, I think he's sexually
• 59:32
  confused. I mean, I think he's trying to figure,
• 59:35
  he is trying to pray it away or kiss it away
• 59:41
  or what. I think on the one, again, he's confused.
• 59:44
  He's, I'm not saying he's, out and proud, I'm
• 59:47
  saying he's a gay man who's sexually confused.
• 59:51
  And that is the way I read it. And I will stick
• 59:55
  to that. Okay. And I am going to respectfully
• 59:57
  disagree with you. Yeah, that's fine. And again,
• 1:00:00
  I think we are seeing this very interesting spectrum
• 1:00:02
  of masculinity. Yes. And this is what, and because
• 1:00:05
  of course, we also always have the word gentle,
• 1:00:08
  right? Gentle. Gentle. But I am going to, I think
• 1:00:12
  that Deborah Kerr is so unappealing sexually
• 1:00:15
  and it's interesting that you think she's hot
• 1:00:17
  because to me I think she's I mean she's not
• 1:00:19
  as hot I mean as some of the other women we've
• 1:00:22
  talked about in some of these other older films
• 1:00:26
  or that sort of thing. But I can see how in this
• 1:00:29
  film, she's cast in the right way. I mean, she's
• 1:00:33
  not a total bombshell. It's not Marilyn Monroe
• 1:00:37
  in 1956. No. And again, to be married to this
• 1:00:41
  coach at this boarding school to have this super,
• 1:00:44
  super hot wife would make a whole lot of sense.
• 1:00:47
  Well, and of course, the other dynamic that is
• 1:00:48
  pertinent is that we are told very explicitly
• 1:00:51
  that he has never really known his mother. His
• 1:00:53
  mother abandoned him and she understands the
• 1:00:56
  relationship to some extent initially in that
• 1:00:59
  she is kind of mothering him. Hence the whole
• 1:01:00
  tea and sympathy thing, right? She's told this
• 1:01:02
  is what you're supposed to do for these boys.
• 1:01:03
  Give them tea and sympathy, not then like have
• 1:01:05
  sex with them in a glade somewhere off the golf
• 1:01:07
  course. So it is interesting to think. if Tea
• 1:01:14
  and Sympathy were being made today, right? And
• 1:01:16
  this is another film that would not be made today.
• 1:01:19
  The dynamics would be so unacceptable. So unacceptable.
• 1:01:21
  And I think we do need to probably point out,
• 1:01:23
  before we finish today, that... Tea and sympathy
• 1:01:27
  is the origin of something Dan Savage says very
• 1:01:32
  often as the paradigm for relationships between
• 1:01:37
  older people and younger people. That the obligation
• 1:01:41
  of the younger person entering into such a relationship
• 1:01:45
  is the tea and sympathy rule. That be kind. This
• 1:01:49
  of course is the famous sort of last line or
• 1:01:52
  one of the last lines of the film. When you speak
• 1:01:54
  about this in the future, And you will, be kind.
• 1:01:58
  And so again, this is the Dan Savage teen sympathy
• 1:02:00
  rule. the obligation of the younger person in
• 1:02:02
  the relationship with the older, not to then
• 1:02:04
  later on, right, criticize the older person,
• 1:02:08
  but. And say they were. And say they were. Like
• 1:02:10
  a hag or whatever. To be kind, to be kind. Right,
• 1:02:14
  right. Or to say, you know what, I just like
• 1:02:17
  men and I don't know why I stuck with that woman.
• 1:02:20
  And which is what Tom will say. OK, you know
• 1:02:22
  what the one thing we can agree on? OK. We can
• 1:02:25
  agree on that. If nothing else, we can say that
• 1:02:28
  Tom Lee. is not a gold star gay. No! Because
• 1:02:35
  he does have sex with a woman. He's not a gold
• 1:02:37
  star gay. No! Just like Dan Savage, actually.
• 1:02:40
  Not a gold star gay. Not a gold star gay. Oh,
• 1:02:43
  wait, can I say one more thing about Dan Savage?
• 1:02:45
  You can say whatever you want, girl. You can
• 1:02:46
  say whatever you want. I realized the entire
• 1:02:48
  time. So, yes, the dad is terrible. The dad is
• 1:02:52
  so terrible that he even dislikes the friends
• 1:02:55
  that Tom has. So awful. So awful. But I was like,
• 1:02:59
  he looks so familiar. I'm like, that actor looks
• 1:03:01
  so familiar. Who is he? And so I looked it up.
• 1:03:05
  The actor who plays Tom's dad is Grandpa Baker
• 1:03:09
  in 16 Candles, the one who is like, where is
• 1:03:13
  my automobile? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So he
• 1:03:17
  always plays assholes, apparently. That's a bummer.
• 1:03:21
  The one who does the little claps his hands really
• 1:03:23
  rudely. It's interesting that you read that movie
• 1:03:25
  so differently. It is. Yeah. I'm going to leave
• 1:03:30
  them with being kind of a, again, a Will and
• 1:03:34
  Grace situation. OK, interesting. Yeah. I do
• 1:03:39
  like to mentally sort of recast that film. I
• 1:03:41
  think it would be fascinating if there were someone
• 1:03:43
  with more overt sex appeal than Deborah Carr,
• 1:03:47
  because she does to me look so motherly. She
• 1:03:49
  is motherly. She's like 35 when she makes that
• 1:03:51
  film. To me, she looks like she's 50. She looks
• 1:03:53
  so old. She does look old. I mean, it's part
• 1:03:54
  of that 50s haircut. That 50s haircut, why would
• 1:03:57
  women get that in the 50s? No, it's just that
• 1:04:00
  healthy thing. What is it? Yeah, what is it?
• 1:04:02
  And she's so stagey to me. You know, the whole,
• 1:04:04
  like, British accent thing where it just doesn't
• 1:04:07
  work. It's like, where did you come from? I get
• 1:04:09
  it. She's stilted. She's stagey. It's like she's
• 1:04:11
  still doing the play on Broadway. And you want
• 1:04:14
  someone, I want someone in that role who is,
• 1:04:17
  does have more sort of electricity. Again, but
• 1:04:21
  the problem with that is... Kind of more milfy.
• 1:04:23
  I hate to say it, but I want more milfy. But
• 1:04:25
  if you put a Stifler's mom in there, for instance,
• 1:04:27
  going back to one of our other pods, if you
• 1:04:30
  put a milfy person in there, then the other guys
• 1:04:34
  are going to really want her too. Fair point.
• 1:04:38
  And the whole point of this movie... as I read
• 1:04:41
  it, and maybe obviously we're reading it differently,
• 1:04:44
  is that they have this special connection, and
• 1:04:46
  that he sees things in her that other guys don't
• 1:04:49
  see. Whereas if she's like super just off the
• 1:04:53
  charts, MILF, bombshell, all the other guys are
• 1:04:56
  going to be drooling around, plus the whole husband
• 1:04:59
  not sleeping with her, then the gayness of that
• 1:05:02
  will come out overt. So you can sort of say,
• 1:05:06
  well, maybe she just isn't hot enough. I do buy
• 1:05:11
  Bill being gay completely. But I think there
• 1:05:13
  are two gay men in this film, not one. And I'm
• 1:05:19
  sticking, I'm sticking to it. We will just have
• 1:05:22
  to agree. We will have to. Agree to disagree.
• 1:05:25
  We will. So we have again, it's really interesting
• 1:05:27
  to think about, we don't have time to talk about
• 1:05:29
  it today in our episode, but it's interesting
• 1:05:31
  to think why universities, schools really generate
• 1:05:36
  these kind of dramatic. connections yeah the
• 1:05:39
  the again power differential that we've mentioned
• 1:05:41
  a couple of times the idea of that accusations
• 1:05:44
  are so powerful they can destroy lives with the
• 1:05:47
  older films the living arrangement Yes, very
• 1:05:49
  much so. That, again, not so much with After
• 1:05:52
  the Hunt, although we can talk about the fact
• 1:05:53
  that the first scene with everyone being so intimate
• 1:05:56
  in that space led to the rest. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:05:58
  But the first two films, the earlier films, Children's
• 1:06:01
  Hour and Tea and Sympathy, have people living in
• 1:06:04
  close quarters and observing one another in close
• 1:06:07
  quarters. And again, in one instance, Tom is
• 1:06:11
  living right above the couple and in the other,
• 1:06:14
  the two women are living with the girls. So a
• 1:06:17
  lot of it has to do I think with sort of spatial
• 1:06:19
  orientation. Yeah, that's a good point. And in
• 1:06:23
  workplace situations where people aren't spending
• 1:06:27
  all of their time together, it's not to say that
• 1:06:29
  of course, of course it happens, right? But you
• 1:06:32
  don't have that 24 hour proximity to one another.
• 1:06:36
  Well, but it's also interesting then. So of course
• 1:06:38
  we have different, very different age groups,
• 1:06:40
  right? We've talked about very young girls sort
• 1:06:42
  of elementary school age girls and then we have
• 1:06:45
  the teenage boys and then of course we have the
• 1:06:47
  graduate students and it seems to say something
• 1:06:50
  that are graduate students seem to be the most.
• 1:06:54
  fragile of our three demographics. And it's interesting.
• 1:06:58
  And we could probably talk about that for another
• 1:06:59
  hour. But I think that's fair to say. No, I agree
• 1:07:02
  with you. And it's interesting because, again,
• 1:07:05
  Mary, little bitch Mary. Bitch. But she's tough
• 1:07:08
  as nails. Absolutely. And she's tough as nails.
• 1:07:11
  She's a little criminal. In 1961. And Maggie,
• 1:07:16
  in 2025, really does seem like she is. completely
• 1:07:20
  going to fall apart. And again, different things
• 1:07:24
  are happening to them, but it is interesting,
• 1:07:27
  yes. And Tom, I mean, of course, he's very, very
• 1:07:31
  vulnerable and he is showing, you know, he's
• 1:07:34
  having all of these moments of, you know, kind
• 1:07:36
  of... No, depression, anxiety, however you want
• 1:07:40
  to think about it. But at the end of the day,
• 1:07:43
  he kind of, I don't want to say man's up. He
• 1:07:45
  goes back to the reunion. Right. He goes back
• 1:07:47
  to the reunion. And again, we see the graduate
• 1:07:52
  student really, really. having this trouble and
• 1:07:57
  having trouble even inhabiting the same spaces
• 1:08:00
  with Andrew Garfield and and it doesn't again
• 1:08:04
  until the whole five years later thing which
• 1:08:06
  we don't really understand right makes no sense
• 1:08:08
  that she's gotten her act together yes and it's
• 1:08:11
  much more mature and assured and but but who
• 1:08:13
  knows why who knows why it's a mystery well you
• 1:08:16
  know we didn't talk beforehand about book recommendations,
• 1:08:19
  but I'm guessing yours might be The Celluloid
• 1:08:21
  Closet. Well, no, I'm going to give you the book
• 1:08:24
  that we read. So we read last week in my graduate
• 1:08:27
  class for anyone who isn't in my graduate class
• 1:08:29
  listening to this. I don't think anyone is. It
• 1:08:33
  is a wonderful book by a historian. Carrie Baker, called
• 1:08:39
  the Women's Movement Against Sexual Harassment.
• 1:08:41
  And it's a history of sexual harassment in the
• 1:08:43
  70s and the 80s, much of it occurring in academic
• 1:08:46
  settings. And some really, really fascinating
• 1:08:50
  legal history, all sorts of analysis of power
• 1:08:54
  dynamics. And it is really a, I wouldn't say
• 1:08:58
  it's a. pleasant read, but it is a fascinating
• 1:09:02
  read. And it really gets into the ways in which,
• 1:09:06
  again, power and labor and various workplaces.
• 1:09:12
  are treating sexual harassment at different times
• 1:09:16
  and the meaning of gender and all sorts of ideas.
• 1:09:20
  So I highly recommend it if people are interested
• 1:09:23
  in a longer, I would say longer, but history
• 1:09:26
  of sexual harassment since the term became legally
• 1:09:31
  debated and legally argued. Oh, well, that sounds
• 1:09:35
  really fascinating. And I will then also slap
• 1:09:39
  up the celluloid closet on our list. All right.
• 1:09:42
  Again, which we've mentioned earlier in the pod,
• 1:09:44
  really interesting and important sort of history
• 1:09:46
  of a very important component of Hollywood. So
• 1:09:49
  I think that that is all the time that we have
• 1:09:51
  now. OK, well, if we don't see if we don't. See
• 1:09:56
  or we're not going to see you. But if we don't
• 1:10:00
  communicate before Thanksgiving, have a wonderful
• 1:10:03
  hunt. Have a wonderful hunt. And until then.
• 1:10:06
  Until then. Harpies out.