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REWIND: The Day the Baseball Died · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Baseball breaks your heart.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: It is designed to break your heart.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: The game begins in the spring when everything else begins again.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: It blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evening.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: And then, as soon as the chill rains come, it stops.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: And leaves you to face the hall alone.
0:36
SPEAKER_04: Hi, everybody.
0:37
SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
0:41
SPEAKER_04: I am Tim Hannon, and with me is my co-host.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Steve Wart.
0:46
SPEAKER_04: And this is the show where we dive into Pittsburgh sports history.
0:50
SPEAKER_04: And in this episode, we're going to talk about a really fun and really memorable time and era of Pittsburgh baseball in the late 80s and early 90s.
1:00
SPEAKER_04: And we're also going to talk about the way it all sort of culminated with the unfortunate events of Wednesday, October 14th, 1992, which is a day that will live an infamy in Pittsburgh sports history, will never be forgotten by us fans who lived through it.
1:31
SPEAKER_04: Before we started Steve, I just wanted to ask you what what's kind of your memories of Pittsburgh baseball and the Pirates during this time?
1:40
SPEAKER_04: During the 80s?
1:41
SPEAKER_04: During the during sort of like the the 80s, late 80s, early 80s.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Well I remember I remember in 1987 going to like 30 pirate games, and which is funny because that whole summer my dad was unemployed.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: It was like on unemployment.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: So like we're really broke.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: But you could go down to Three River Stadium if you took a Coke can, like a diet coke or whatever Coke you liked, you could get into the stadium for two people for like two dollars.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: And like sit in those, like remember three River Stadium had like the brown seats out and like whatever the telescope to see home played.
2:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: So I we'd sit out there and oh my gosh, wait.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: I still have the score books.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: My dad used to keep score.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: I learned how to keep score.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: And just like great like father-son moments.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: And the Pirates, I do remember the Pirates stunk early in 87, and then like it really got exciting because later in that year they went on this big run and they went from like last place in the division to like not first place but little.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: They had been eliminated, but it was still kind of like 87 was like, oh, this team might be and I think that's the year they traded Pena too.
2:46
SPEAKER_04: Yes, we'll get into that for sure.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
2:48
SPEAKER_04: It was the year, and they turned it and they turned that was like their um that was their hundredth season, and they they're I remember their 1887, like they had the old-fashioned pirate.
2:57
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
2:59
SPEAKER_04: So so that's cool.
3:01
SPEAKER_04: You had like the like you said, the father-son moments.
3:03
SPEAKER_04: I I this this era for me, like that late 80s, early 90s.
3:08
SPEAKER_04: So so I was born the same as you.
3:11
SPEAKER_04: I was born in the late 70s, and so around this time, you know, just like you, I was in that like coming of age time where you're like you're transitioning from being like a little kid to being a teenager.
3:22
SPEAKER_04: And man, baseball, I loved baseball so much.
3:26
SPEAKER_04: I I collected baseball cards.
3:28
SPEAKER_04: I can still remember like what the 1990 Nolan Ryan Donriss card looks like, you know.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: That's my favorite pictures, too.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: I love Nolan.
3:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, me too.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, I remember my friend would come over and we would play woofle ball, and he was kind of like, you know, he was I wasn't as he was more nerdy like about baseball.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Like he knew the lineups, and he knew two of the lineups.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So he'd knew the Pirates and for some reason the Houston Astros.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: So somebody would have like we'd go through the lineup pretending, you know, oh yeah, it's you know, Dale Barra or whoever was on the 1986 Pirates.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And like, so someone would have to be the Houston Astros.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: So I still think I think Billy Allman hit a hit a home run over my house.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: That was the first time that ever happened.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: That was really me, but yeah, it was when Billy Allman's spot in the order was up.
4:16
SPEAKER_04: So well, and and that's that's the way I was too.
4:19
SPEAKER_04: Like my my brother and I the whole summer, we would go outside, we'd play catch, or we'd go up to the ball field by our house with our friend Tony and we'd play like home run derby.
4:28
SPEAKER_04: Like there was only three of us, we couldn't play a real game.
4:30
SPEAKER_04: So we'd do like home run derby.
4:32
SPEAKER_04: No, no, it was just home run derby.
4:34
SPEAKER_04: Like you get like five at bats and see how many home runs you could hit over the over the little fence that was there.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was just two of us, and I don't know how we did like I think we would just do like pitcher's hand, or like, you know, if you caught the ball, or you know, yeah, you would be out.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: If you didn't get the first by the time you got the ball.
4:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
4:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
4:51
SPEAKER_04: And and and we would that's how we spent our summers.
4:54
SPEAKER_04: And then and then my parents would let us stay up late in the summers because we didn't have school.
4:59
SPEAKER_04: And we'd stay up really late to watch baseball tonight on ESPN to watch like all the highlights.
5:04
SPEAKER_04: And so there were some seasons where I probably saw the highlight of every single like baseball game over the summer.
5:09
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
5:10
SPEAKER_04: Because I'd stay up to watch it.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: I remember more like my dad, because they were showing this when there was no sports on, they were showing old this week in baseballs.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: And I remember like my dad's an early seat person.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's the two, there's the show up like third inning, there's the like show up an hour before the game.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: My dad's a show up the hour before the game kind of guy.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: So they would always play like this week in baseball before the game.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: So I remember like Matt, how about that?
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: St.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Louis Cardinals are really good again.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: How about that?
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: I remember that.
5:41
SPEAKER_04: I remember that I used to love the music that would play at the end of that.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Maybe when she put that at the end of the podcast.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: And that was how mad we can make Major League Baseball.
5:53
SPEAKER_04: And and uh I I remember the and see, like probably like your your friend that was nerdy about baseball, I could have told you in the middle of that time, I could have told you who the utility infielder was for the Kansas City Royals.
6:07
SPEAKER_04: I I just I I knew so much about baseball and I loved baseball.
6:12
SPEAKER_04: And I think, you know, do as I was putting together this episode, it was it was kind of bittersweet because like so many great warm memories of that time, but then like to remember how it all kind of ended and how it changed everything.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, just even the economics, like yeah, I mean, you know, I hate to sound like so old man, and I guess I'm gonna get a little old man here.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot a couple things that changed there.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, you used to be able to get in a pirate game for a dollar.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: That's in even back in 1987 that was cheap.
6:41
SPEAKER_05: Right.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: And like now you couldn't get into in and out of a I remember I took my family to a pirate game like a year or so ago.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: And I I I if I I if I spent less than three hundred dollars, I'm I'm you know, I'm probably not that far off.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, between the tickets and the food and you know and they weren't even great, you know, I was in the upper Decapiency Park.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: It was a great field, but I mean how many games can an average person do like that a year?
7:09
SPEAKER_01: Like like there would be no way me and my dad could go to like even if we sat in the left field seats for ten dollars, like you know, do like thirty games, like it had to be thirty games that year.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: We did so many games.
7:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
7:22
SPEAKER_04: And so this was kind of the end of that era too.
7:25
SPEAKER_04: I mean, going all the way back to Forbes Field, like they used to talk about at Forbes Field, how um if if the game was like in the sixth inning, sometimes they would just open the gate and let you in.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, you used to be able to s the sneak down, people still do it.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Because I remember doing that.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean yeah, like sneaking down to the better seats like after like the fourth or fifth inning, like you know, the ushers don't care, you know.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: If somebody was sitting there, they'd be sitting there by now.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:50
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, just just like that was that for Steve and I, who were about the same age.
7:54
SPEAKER_04: I mean, that was just like that was our coward.
7:57
SPEAKER_04: And and this time frame for the pirates, you know, i it's when the pirates finally got good, and it was so fun to to not only be a baseball fan, but then have a good team to work for.
8:08
SPEAKER_04: Um but but that didn't happen until the late 80s.
8:12
SPEAKER_04: So let's let's go backwards a little.
8:14
SPEAKER_04: Let's go back to the to the most of the 1980s when the pirates were just a complete um train wreck.
8:21
SPEAKER_04: Uh we we did an episode about the 80s Steelers and how they stonk.
8:24
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure we could do an episode about the 80s penguins or some of the pit teams and how bad they stonk.
8:29
SPEAKER_04: I I really think I really feel like the Pirates are at a lower point than any of the other teams in Pittsburgh because not only do they stink, but there's so much garbage going on off the field.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: So I would say even especially after 84 when Mario, because like Mario kind of solidified the Penguins, but you know, there was no nobody really liked that for the Pirates.
8:49
SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
8:49
SPEAKER_04: And then in 1985, they have the Pittsburgh drug trials, and we won't go into detail about what that was, but if you're not familiar, there was basically a a a huge cocaine scandal in baseball, and Pittsburgh was at the center of all of it.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Chuck Tanner, the World Series manager, gets fired because of it because he didn't know who that guy in the trench coat was.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: It was like you know just hanging out in the club aisles.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Like after games, I don't know who he is.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: But okay, you just let anybody in.
9:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was it was bad.
9:18
SPEAKER_04: Uh the attendance is awful.
9:20
SPEAKER_04: And then Steve, uh I know you wanted to talk a little bit about this.
9:23
SPEAKER_04: The the ownership turmoil.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: It can it culminated in every yeah, like the ownership is like ownership really equals like stability and then winning.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: And like if you look at the different franchises, the ones that are successful and not successful, like the first key you almost always have to have is some sort of ownership.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: And the Pirates had that with a guy named John Galbraith who bought the team for Barney Dreyfus.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: But and that was all the way back in 1946, and he's probably the most successful owner of the Pirates still to this day.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: They win three World Series while he's there.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: They're really good in the 70s, they just the Reds were a little better.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: They really stunk in the 50s, but they still had Ralph Kiner, so they still had a good player.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, he brought Branch Ricky and you know, Galbreth really was a successful owner.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, in 85-86, I think the I don't know if he had died, but his family decided to get out of the baseball business.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: And um, another fun fact was Ben Crosby was part owner of the Pirates.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we've mentioned that before.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: That is a fun fact.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, Ben Crosby.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: I think Time Warner owned like at that time 48% of I don't know how that worked, but I guess Galbreth needed some money and he sold 48% of the Pittsburgh Pirates to Ted Turner or I don't know.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Or is that Ted?
10:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know all the ins and out of 80s business dealings, but but at that point the pirates are rumored to leave town.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Now it wasn't like the Penguins where like there was like, oh, they're moving to City X, like they're like where it's Kansas City or San Diego, well San Diego had a team, Kansas City or like Miami or whoever didn't have a team back then.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: But it was just like that scared everybody because the pirates, like you said, had almost been there a hundred years.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: And like I think too, it played into like Pittsburgh was in this downturn from the 70s and like everybody was leaving town in the 80s.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: Like Pittsburgh was having a tough time keeping you know all the steel mills had closed, and you know, it was kind of hadn't transitioned into the healthcare boom that it became.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: So that that kind of played into like you know the psyche of the town.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, we don't want to lose the pirates, that'll be like another thing we've lost.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: So the um Richard Caliguri, who's the mayor at the time, he forms a consortium of corporations, and this is the oddest ownership, and it's like Alcoa, PBG, Westinghouse, Carnegie Mellon.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: So I guess these are the corporations that haven't moved out and are here for the long haul, so they want to have a team to keep, you know, Pittsburgh, you know, as a first class city, you know.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to be, you know, one of them second-class ones that don't have a pirate baseball talent.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of what and this group owns the the pirates until 1996.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: So I don't even know who we really I guess you'll you know who would I don't know who the general manager was.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Was it Sid Thrift by then?
12:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, but there really was no ownership per se of the you know what I mean?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: There's no I mean imagine with like a group of people like that, it's probably hard to have a direction, you know.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Like like does the CEO of like Westinghouse or US Steel have time to like debate like trading Tony Paena, you know?
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, doesn't he have better things to do like worry about like running his steel mills or getting aluminum, you know?
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:32
SPEAKER_04: And they had they had they had basically like a management team.
12:36
SPEAKER_04: So there was like a a president, team president.
12:39
SPEAKER_04: There was not very different than it is today.
12:42
SPEAKER_04: It's just that there was no there wasn't like that single owner that like kind of made all the decisions.
12:47
SPEAKER_04: And and that's actually you mentioned Sid Thrift.
12:50
SPEAKER_04: We'll talk about that a little bit later.
12:51
SPEAKER_04: That's one of the things that gets him in trouble is that there is people he has to answer to.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, I could see why you think there wouldn't be.
13:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
13:01
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so so you're right, and and it it's the pirates are almost like skirting around irrelevance at this point, you know, and and you like you said, Steve, all those people that grew up on Forbes Field and Roberto Clemente, and like they're all leaving town, and now you have a whole generation of kids like you and me that are starting to, you know, might may not even have a baseball team to root for.
13:28
SPEAKER_04: Uh so like you said, that that that forming that consortium definitely saved the team.
13:33
SPEAKER_04: And then in 1986, they really start to turn things around, they hire a manager by the name of Jim Leland.
13:40
SPEAKER_04: And Steve, I want to get your take on this.
13:42
SPEAKER_04: I I I would say if you're if I was gonna put together a list of the top five all-time Pittsburgh um coaches in any sport, I really think I'd have to put Leland in there.
13:53
SPEAKER_04: What do you think?
13:54
SPEAKER_01: I think it would be the most Pittsburgh of them all.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Between the smoking and the dugout and then he threw milk on the wall and Yeah, he got mad and threw milk on the wall.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: But um Is he I don't I I think he still lives in Pittsburgh.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: I I think he might.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean so I don't know if he's from here.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't know where Jim Leland's even from, but um yeah, I mean it top five.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we're gonna say top five coaches, okay.
14:21
SPEAKER_04: So who would you put above him, I guess?
14:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, Chuck Null.
14:24
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, Cower?
14:28
SPEAKER_04: Maybe.
14:28
SPEAKER_04: Johnny Majors.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean Tanner.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Tanner?
14:32
SPEAKER_01: No.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't put Tanner Danny Murtaugh?
14:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, probably Danny Murtaugh.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean Murtaugh won two World Series.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: So that's four.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean Yeah.
14:42
SPEAKER_04: See what I'm saying?
14:42
SPEAKER_04: I I think I really think I'd put him in top five.
14:45
SPEAKER_04: I really do.
14:46
SPEAKER_04: And and he he had a he had a really big personality.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Well Fred Clark is still the all-time winningest pirates coach, so and he won the nine I think he was the coach of the 1925 World Series.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Pirates World Two City.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, you can't match Fred Clark 25.
14:59
SPEAKER_04: Fred Clark was but but Leland was like this really big personality, and you kind of alluded to this, Steve.
15:06
SPEAKER_04: He he could be like very fiery.
15:07
SPEAKER_04: Like he would be out there screaming in the face of the umpire.
15:10
SPEAKER_04: He could also be like very cranky.
15:12
SPEAKER_04: He would he would give these post-game interviews.
15:15
SPEAKER_04: He would he would do post-game interviews from a rocking chair.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember that, yeah.
15:19
SPEAKER_04: He would sit in a rocking chair in the locker room smoking a cigarette.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: And he was 40, but he looked like he was 60.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: He looked like he was 80.
15:26
SPEAKER_04: He would just sit there in his rocking chair, and sometimes he could just be like, you know, Jim, what did you think about tonight's game?
15:32
SPEAKER_04: I don't know what the hell happened, right?
15:34
SPEAKER_04: He'd just mumble his way through smoking a cigarette.
15:36
SPEAKER_04: Um, he could be like emotional.
15:38
SPEAKER_04: It was not uncommon to see him cry.
15:41
SPEAKER_04: Uh huh.
15:41
SPEAKER_04: And then he could be really funny.
15:43
SPEAKER_04: There's you there's all these clips of him with like a microphone like crooning in the locker room.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: I remember, yeah, after they won the pennant one year, yeah, you used to he was like singing in the locker room.
15:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:52
SPEAKER_04: So he he's just a big personality.
15:54
SPEAKER_04: I think he was really great at extracting the most out of his players, and they loved him, and he was a good leader.
16:02
SPEAKER_04: He was just a really good leader.
16:03
SPEAKER_04: It was exactly what the Pirates needed at that time to turn things around.
16:08
SPEAKER_04: Um, they also have a general manager who we who we mentioned earlier named Sid Thrift, and he's making some really good moves.
16:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh, he acquires Bobby Bonilla from the White Sox and Doug Drabeck from the Yankees.
16:20
SPEAKER_04: These are two players who are young uh and who Thrift sees as really potential.
16:27
SPEAKER_04: Both of them have a lot of potential, and he makes deals to get both of them, and it works out really well in the end.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: And it leaves the great Seinfall reference when when they complain about George complains about trading Draybick, the sniper.
16:41
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
16:41
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
16:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
16:42
SPEAKER_04: Yep, because they dumped Doug Draybick.
16:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
16:45
SPEAKER_04: Um the the speaking of trades, the most uh talked about trade for sure during the the thrift era, and Steve you you alluded to this one earlier too, occurs on April 1st, 1987.
16:56
SPEAKER_04: And and when I was when I was looking up the the research on this, I didn't have to look up the date of this.
17:02
SPEAKER_04: I remember the date.
17:03
SPEAKER_04: April Fool's Day.
17:05
SPEAKER_04: Because, yes, everyone thought it was an April Fool's joke.
17:08
SPEAKER_04: And I still remember that.
17:09
SPEAKER_04: I remember when people heard it, they're like, no, no, that didn't happen.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: That's an April Fool's joke.
17:13
SPEAKER_04: So what happens is the Pirates trade their starting catcher, six-time All-Star, and best player, Tony Pena, to the St.
17:23
SPEAKER_04: Louis Cardinals for three guys that none of no nobody had ever heard of, and events like Mike Lavalier and Mike Dunn.
17:30
SPEAKER_04: Um, and pi people in Pittsburgh were just like outraged.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember people were mad about that.
17:37
SPEAKER_04: I remember my dad was like, I'm done, I'm done.
17:39
SPEAKER_04: And and I felt the same way.
17:41
SPEAKER_04: Like I I used to um emulate Tony Pena had a um he didn't squat behind home play.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: No, he would sit on his knees or like he would have his one leg out.
17:50
SPEAKER_04: He'd have his one leg out.
17:51
SPEAKER_04: I used to emulate that.
17:52
SPEAKER_04: I used to catch and I would emulate Tony Pena.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: He could still pick people off of first from that because he had a heck of an arm.
17:58
SPEAKER_04: He did, yeah.
17:59
SPEAKER_04: And and I love Tony Pena, and he was the only player on the team that was even worth rooting for.
18:03
SPEAKER_04: And then they traded him.
18:05
SPEAKER_04: Are you kidding me?
18:06
SPEAKER_04: So a lot of people were really angry about that.
18:08
SPEAKER_04: But Thrift really makes the right call there.
18:10
SPEAKER_04: Um Pena's on the downside of his career.
18:13
SPEAKER_04: The the Cardinals are in win now mode.
18:15
SPEAKER_04: They they'd been to the World Series in '85.
18:17
SPEAKER_04: They would go to the World Series again in '87.
18:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, they had a really good team.
18:21
SPEAKER_04: They wanted a veteran uh catcher that they could count on.
18:26
SPEAKER_04: And uh the Pirates said, you know, that guy's not going to be that good that much longer, and he wasn't.
18:32
SPEAKER_04: And they get um Van Slick and Lavallier.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, Mike Dunn became a cornerstone of the organization for 20 years.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Remember Mike Dunn's Hall of Fame career?
18:41
SPEAKER_01: No.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: I think that's an alternate universe there.
18:45
SPEAKER_04: Mike Dunn actually had a decent like first season.
18:48
SPEAKER_04: Um and again, going back to baseball cards, he had the little tops he used to make these um uh rookie cards with the little like trophies on them to signify that they were like a really good rookie.
18:59
SPEAKER_04: And Mike Dunn had a little top trophy in his own.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Was that the year with the like the wood?
19:03
SPEAKER_01: Like it had like a little wood frame.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: 87 was the wood frame here.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
19:06
SPEAKER_04: See, I'm telling you, I you you remember too, you remember baseball cards.
19:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:10
SPEAKER_04: Uh but but Van Slyke and LeVallier both become key cogs.
19:13
SPEAKER_04: And and Van Slyke, I would say, probably goes down as one of the most beloved Pirates players ever.
19:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, so that was a big deal.
19:22
SPEAKER_04: Um, but but probably the most significant personnel move during this era was the drafting of a player named Barry Bonds.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: Barry Bonds was a very good player at at uh Arizona State University.
19:34
SPEAKER_04: He's also baseball royalty.
19:36
SPEAKER_04: His father is former Major League All-Star Bobby Bonds.
19:40
SPEAKER_04: His godfather is the legendary Willie Mays.
19:44
SPEAKER_04: Um, Bonds is uh poised to be an excellent player.
19:48
SPEAKER_04: He's also a very complicated human being.
19:53
SPEAKER_04: I I mean to say it gently.
19:56
SPEAKER_04: Uh I I think if you ever want to see a really good like psychoanalysis of of Barry Bonds and who he was as a person, I I'd recommend go watch the Ken Burns baseball documentary.
20:06
SPEAKER_04: They they talk a lot about him in uh one of those episodes, and they talk about how his father and his godfather really ingrained in him to have a chip on his shoulder.
20:17
SPEAKER_04: Like the whole world's against you all the time.
20:20
SPEAKER_04: And I I mean, I'm not sure, you know, I mean, Willie May certainly, you know, he started his career in the Negro leagues when you weren't even allowed to play in Major League Baseball if you were African American.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: So people really were against Willie May.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
20:33
SPEAKER_04: And I'm not saying, you know, um racism was gone by 1986, or that you know, or or that Barry Bonds might not have had some struggles, but it it was definitely a different I I'm not sure what it was, but Bonds makes a lot of enemies.
20:48
SPEAKER_04: And you know, Steve, I was thinking about this.
20:51
SPEAKER_04: If you took every sport and you took the top ten all time in every sport, not just not just team sports, like baseball, football, hockey, but like tennis, golf, heck, auto racing, just take the top ten of every one of the sports.
21:06
SPEAKER_04: Is there anybody in that list?
21:08
SPEAKER_04: And I put Barry Bonds in the top ten in baseball.
21:10
SPEAKER_04: Is there anybody in that list who's more universally despised than Barry Bonds?
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Ty Cobb.
21:16
SPEAKER_04: Maybe.
21:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, maybe.
21:19
SPEAKER_04: I mean, if you if you put him in your top ten.
21:21
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes.
21:23
SPEAKER_04: I mean, but uh can you think of anybody else in any other sport?
21:27
SPEAKER_04: I I can't.
21:28
SPEAKER_04: Uh universally hated.
21:30
SPEAKER_04: Universally just hated.
21:31
SPEAKER_04: I mean, teammates, fans, media.
21:35
SPEAKER_04: Uh that's a good question.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: I can't think of anybody like that in like professional football per se.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Like I just I can't even think of like so you like because like even like a guy like Rodney Harrison, who we might like, like people in New England love him, you know.
21:51
SPEAKER_04: Well, and he's not top ten all the time, like right, right.
21:54
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
21:54
SPEAKER_04: There's there's lots of things.
21:55
SPEAKER_04: He's not a great player, yeah.
21:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there's lots of guys you could say who are despised, but like Bill Roman Else.
22:01
SPEAKER_04: Right, but but like you know, on the level of a Tom Brady or yeah Yeah, he's not really universally despised.
22:08
SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, he a lot of people just don't like him.
22:10
SPEAKER_04: I mean Barry Bonds, people just hate and again, like even the teammates fans.
22:15
SPEAKER_04: Like even teammates and uh other ball players.
22:19
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, Barry Bonds, we'll talk we'll definitely be talking about him a lot during this episode.
22:24
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but drafting him is really one of the biggest um, you know, uh definitely leads to a lot of success later.
22:32
SPEAKER_04: Uh one player they do not get during this time is Ken Griffey Jr.
22:37
SPEAKER_04: So this is an interesting factoid that I think a lot of people forget about.
22:41
SPEAKER_04: The Pirates had the worst record in baseball in 1986, which should mean that they get the first draft pick in 1987.
22:49
SPEAKER_04: But Major League Baseball at this time still treated the two leagues as separate leagues and separate entities.
22:57
SPEAKER_04: So the role was that the American League team with the worst record would pick first in odd numbered years, and the National League team with the worst record would pick first in even numbered years.
23:06
SPEAKER_04: Now that role doesn't exist anymore, but it did back then.
23:09
SPEAKER_04: And so the Mariners in 1986 are 67 and 95, which is better than the Pirates' 64 and 98 mark.
23:17
SPEAKER_04: But because the Mariners play in the American League, they get to select first in the 87 draft, they get Ken Griffey Jr., the Pirates end up selecting Mark Merchant, who never plays a game in the mainland.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And then Mike Dunner hanging out.
23:29
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:30
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
23:31
SPEAKER_04: So that kind of stunk.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean the Pirates They could have had Griffey and the Ambons and not had to give up too much, huh?
23:37
SPEAKER_01: Another Seinfeld reference.
23:39
SPEAKER_04: Well that would have been, yeah, that would have been their first, they would have had Griffey instead of.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: That was one of George Costanza's trade ideas.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's pretty impressive.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: The pirates actually could have actually pulled off a Costanza there.
23:50
SPEAKER_04: They would have had Griffey instead of Mark Merkin.
23:53
SPEAKER_04: That's literally what's the case.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: And they played different positions too.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: So that would like Griffey played center, didn't he, early in his career?
23:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean they would have put him in the outfield and they probably would have never moved Bonilla from third base.
24:04
SPEAKER_04: So it it would be.
24:07
SPEAKER_04: Yipes.
24:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yipes, right.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: But So their their batting order would have been, I don't know, whoever bats first for them back then, um, Darnell Coles, I don't know.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh and then and then okay, so let's wind it up with Bonia, Bonds, and Griffey.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Vance Lyke.
24:24
SPEAKER_04: Oh my god.
24:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna ban Van Slick fifth.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: Really?
24:29
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I mean He's gonna see a lot of good pitches, though.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: Imagine Imagine the Winnie.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
24:43
SPEAKER_04: But it doesn't happen.
24:44
SPEAKER_04: However, the Pirates still um are building a pretty good team.
24:48
SPEAKER_04: You mentioned the turnaround in 1987, and by 1988, they're in position to make a pennant run.
24:53
SPEAKER_04: That's a really exciting season.
24:54
SPEAKER_04: They they ultimately finish in second place to the Mets that year.
24:58
SPEAKER_04: Um they lose a there's a really key game that year that they lose at Shea Stadium where they um have two out.
25:05
SPEAKER_04: They're they're down, they have the Mets down to their last out, and Howard Johnson hits a home run off of Jim Gott, and then that kind of Jim Gott.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: That was one of the, yeah, the reliever.
25:14
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
25:14
SPEAKER_04: Yep, and that kind of that was kind of their that that was like their best chance to catch the Mets.
25:20
SPEAKER_04: And that was in 88, right?
25:21
SPEAKER_04: That was 88.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because they yeah.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, we have that great story about the mayors, too.
25:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so so so Steve, tell that story about the mayors.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And I remember this from when I was a kid because I remember like hating New York after this.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's why I've never gone to New York City.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, because of Ed Cotch.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: But uh, so I'm like, I guess the Pirates thought they were to have some fun with New York, and they ran a local commercial.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh it said, uh, what do you what do you hate like things that they hate about like New York?
25:49
SPEAKER_01: It was like cabbies that don't speak English, like smelly city, traffic jams, obnoxious people.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: And it was like a pirates ad for tickets or whatever.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: And it was like, and then it showed like a Mets logo and said just another thing they hate about New York.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: And the Mets were like, I think they had the won the series in '86, right?
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: So they were still like a really good team.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: They said, well, Doc Gooden, Daryl Strawberry, yeah.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And so after that, somebody, I guess somebody asked Ed Koch, who was the mayor of the city back then, like what his opinions of that was, and he said, like Pittsburgh, where's Pittsburgh or who's Pittsburgh?
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Pittsburgh Who or something like that.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I think he said Pittsburgh Who.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: And so this lay so a big thing, and the um mayor Carol Jerry had died by that time, and it was a mayor by the name of Sophie Maslow.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and then Sophie said she said that the uh New York sounds like uh big applesauce in her own, like you had a Pittsburgh, like Sophie had a very Pittsburgh accent from like if if she was like your grandmother from like Squirrel Hill, you know?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh big applesauce.
26:57
SPEAKER_04: Yes, that's a good thing.
26:58
SPEAKER_04: And it led to this whole like trash.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that like this whole trash talk.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: Like she sent a map to Ed Cotch, and Ed Cotch was like, Yeah, you need a map to get around Pittsburgh, and like it was like some serious trash talk for like July 1st, 1988.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: It just it was all in good humor, but I mean it it's it was pretty funny.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: And I just remember that that was like a big thing to like, you know, whatever my 11 or 12-year-old self, like, oh those New Yorkers.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: Like it kind of like there I don't think Pittsburgh's ever had that big of a rivalry in New York, more with Boston than New York, but definitely, definitely, definitely uh fan the flames and was uh just like like it was just weird that like Ed Koch took time out of his day to like talk trash on I guess after that commercial, I guess.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: And it was on WWOR too, like because like back then they had they WWR was still like a New York channel because like I remember watching Kiner's corners after them like if the Mets played the probably you could watch like or the Mets just play, you could watch Kiner's Corner and watch Ralph Kiner talk about the Mets.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: But it was just yeah, it was it was a different time and WWOR was like I that was a wild like little station though.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: It was just it was the New York local New York station, but you got it in Pittsburgh because of cable finally.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, forgot about that.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: So I mean imagine if that happened today.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: I guess it would all be on Twitter now or Facebook.
28:26
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure they'd be tagging each other.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it would be it'd be labeled out of proportion too.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: Like everybody would get all mad at each other, like, oh, how dare you! Like they were Mayor DePlazio, Mayor Paduta would talk trash on each other, you know.
28:39
SPEAKER_04: I I I do I do remember hating the Mets and the Phillies a lot during this time.
28:44
SPEAKER_04: Those were the two teams that I just did not like.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: And that was that was the infamous 10-run game, too, against the Phillies.
28:50
SPEAKER_04: I think that was the year after 89 where they yeah, where they came back from 10 runs down.
28:55
SPEAKER_04: And Jim Brooker had to walk home.
28:56
SPEAKER_04: Jim Rooker had to walk home because he said he he said he would walk home if the Pirates blew it and then the Pirates blew it.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: It it is 200 and some miles from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, by the way.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: He did it for like charity in the offseason.
29:08
SPEAKER_04: Yes, he walked home.
29:10
SPEAKER_04: Um so uh yeah, they don't win the division, but it's a good year.
29:13
SPEAKER_04: Leland is actually named the co-manager of the year that year with Tommy Lazorda.
29:18
SPEAKER_04: Uh but after that season, Thrift is fired.
29:21
SPEAKER_04: And it's not because he's doing a bad job, he's doing a great job, but it's because he's he's butting heads with management.
29:27
SPEAKER_04: Um and and you know, I I don't remember this and I don't remember how much was made about it in the media.
29:33
SPEAKER_04: So I just kind of had to go from you know old news stories and stuff.
29:37
SPEAKER_04: But you know, the from what I can glean, I mean, Thrift seems like a guy who's very good at his job, knows he's very good at his job, and doesn't think he has to answer to anybody.
29:46
SPEAKER_04: Um there's a big story um from back then where he he trades Darnell Coles and uh he doesn't get like any like okay from from management.
29:58
SPEAKER_04: He just kind of makes his own moves.
30:00
SPEAKER_04: He doesn't he doesn't think anybody needs to sign off on any of the deals he makes.
30:04
SPEAKER_04: And eventually that just leads to him getting fired.
30:08
SPEAKER_04: Um so so that seems like it maybe should sink the pirates, but Larry Doty is his replacement, and the pirates really don't miss a beat.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: I remember storing a paper, somebody getting kicked out of through a stadium because they brought a sign in that said bring back Sid.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't Sid Bream, it was Sid Thrift.
30:26
SPEAKER_04: Sid Thrift, yeah.
30:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: And the fire the Pirates weren't putting up with that, I guess.
30:32
SPEAKER_04: How dare you question our management.
30:35
SPEAKER_04: Um they they continue to build a winner, winner, and by 1990, it finally all comes together for a postseason berth.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: Uh that that year the Pirates are again in a race with the Mets for the NL East Division.
30:46
SPEAKER_04: It goes all the way down to the last month of the season, but this time the Pirates are the better team.
30:52
SPEAKER_04: And by this point, the the real strength of the Pirates is the middle of their order, which is Van Slick in center field batting third, Bonilla in right field batting fourth, and then um Bonds in left field batting fifth.
31:04
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bonds becomes the first major leaguer in history to have a 300 batting average, 100 RBI, 100 runs, and 50 stolen bases all in the same season.
31:14
SPEAKER_04: Just for good measure, he also hits 33 home runs.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Back then that was that was impressive.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: And that was a lot.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: That was pre-steroids.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because like 15 to 20 was a good year.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: Right.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: Uh he's named the National League MVP.
31:27
SPEAKER_04: Uh Draybick has his big career breakout year.
31:31
SPEAKER_04: He wins 22 games, and he's named the National League Cy Young Award winner.
31:36
SPEAKER_04: So the Pirates have the MVP and Cy Young Award winner.
31:39
SPEAKER_04: Um, a couple of highlights from that season.
31:41
SPEAKER_04: There's a on June 24th, there's a game at Montreal where um Stan Belinda comes into the game to replace Bob Kipper in the bottom of the ninth inning with the bases loaded and no outs.
31:53
SPEAKER_04: And Belinda retires three batters without allowing a run to win the game.
31:57
SPEAKER_04: So Stan Belinda at this point is a um uh a relief pitcher.
32:03
SPEAKER_04: Uh he he throws like this really hard sidearm uh fastball, and uh he's I think he's in his second year, so he's just he's still kind of like, you know, you're not sure what his place is.
32:15
SPEAKER_04: This this is really his breakout game.
32:18
SPEAKER_04: And and really for the next three years, he slowly works his way to the point where Leland eventually trusts him to close out games.
32:26
SPEAKER_04: And I wanted to mention this game because we'll talk more about Belinda later.
32:30
SPEAKER_04: And we'll talk about another scenario where he came in in the bottom of the ninth with the bases loaded and no outs.
32:35
SPEAKER_04: Um on August 3rd, Drayback comes within one out of throwing a no-hitter against Philadelphia.
32:42
SPEAKER_04: So, so Steve, I talked about how much I love baseball.
32:44
SPEAKER_04: Like, as I was looking back on some of these games, I can remember where I was for some of these games.
32:50
SPEAKER_04: That August 3rd, 1990 game where Drabeck almost had the no-hitter, I my brother and I were playing in our backyard, and my dad comes out and he's like, hey, Dreybeck has a no-hitter going through like six innings.
33:02
SPEAKER_04: And we like ran inside and we're like glued to the TV.
33:04
SPEAKER_04: We're like, oh my gosh, we might get to see a no-hitter because they they were rare back then.
33:09
SPEAKER_04: Uh it's still rare today, I guess.
33:11
SPEAKER_04: But um, and then it got all the way down to the final out, and the guy that broke it up um was a guy for Philadelphia named Sil Compu Sano.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: I did that jeez.
33:23
SPEAKER_04: Well, if you ever needed the answer to that trivia question, ask my brother.
33:26
SPEAKER_04: He'll never forget that guy's name.
33:28
SPEAKER_04: He was so angry that this bum Sil Compu Sano broke up the no-hitter.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Bunt or something?
33:33
SPEAKER_04: No, he just got a single, he just like slapped a single to left field or something.
33:38
SPEAKER_04: Uh so that was that was a bummer, but Draybick still won the game and obviously had a stellar season.
33:44
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and then there's a series early in September with the Mets that's essentially going to decide the division, and that was huge.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I remember, yeah, I remember that.
33:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that I remember Bonia was on the cover of Sports Illustrated, and I think I want to say the headline was like down of the wire on like the cover of Sports Illustrated, and uh the Pirates sweep the series.
34:01
SPEAKER_04: And and back then, um, you know, there's only two divisions.
34:05
SPEAKER_04: Right, it's a East and a West.
34:07
SPEAKER_04: There's an East and a West, there's no wild cards.
34:09
SPEAKER_04: So you you you go straight to the championship series.
34:13
SPEAKER_04: You go straight to the NLCS, the two division winners.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: There's no division series, there's no wild card game, there's no play-in wild card game, there's none of that.
34:21
SPEAKER_04: So you really had to be like the best of the best to get into the playoffs.
34:25
SPEAKER_04: Um 1990 was was like one of my favorite baseball seasons ever, just in general, not even just in Pittsburgh.
34:32
SPEAKER_04: Um there were a bunch of I think there was like nine no-hitters that year.
34:35
SPEAKER_04: It was it was pretty crazy.
34:37
SPEAKER_04: Uh Ricky Henderson sets the stolen base record.
34:40
SPEAKER_04: Uh Willie McGee uh wins the bat, the National League batting title that year, playing in the American League, which is really goofy.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: Um he'd been traded to to Oakland like late in the season, but his stats still counted for the National League.
34:53
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bo Jackson was huge at this time.
34:56
SPEAKER_04: He was a two sports star.
34:58
SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, again, talking about baseball cards, he had this um score baseball card that year, where it was like him with a baseball bat and shoulder pen football.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: And it was like a black and white photo.
35:10
SPEAKER_04: Uh it was on the cover of Beckett Baseball Card monthly.
35:13
SPEAKER_04: Like that that that was man, like I said, I Steve, I just I loved baseball so much.
35:18
SPEAKER_04: I remember so much during that time.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: And it was so cool to have the pirates like being good in the middle of all that.
35:24
SPEAKER_04: Like like I played um one of the other things loving baseball.
35:27
SPEAKER_04: I used to love uh uh like Nintendo baseball games, probably like a quarter of the games I owned or rented were baseball games.
35:35
SPEAKER_04: And like if you were playing like RVI baseball too, you would never pick the pirates because they stunk.
35:41
SPEAKER_04: And it was it was cool to like get to a point where you know you could actually like pick the pirates or or you wanted to trade for the pirates' baseball cards, you know.
35:50
SPEAKER_04: Um I remember too, the Pittsburgh Press on the on the front page of the paper.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: I remember this, yeah.
35:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for like weeks, they just had this big box up in the corner.
35:59
SPEAKER_04: It was Pirates Magic Number.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it started with like 19 or something, like a high number.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like five or six, but it was like in August.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they just kept counting down and then until finally the pirates clinched.
36:11
SPEAKER_04: Um so super exciting.
36:13
SPEAKER_04: And and the other thing that was fun from that season, there was this like super, super uh uh it's very dated now song that came out that year.
36:24
SPEAKER_04: It was called You Gotta Believe.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: It was it's mulletastic.
36:27
SPEAKER_04: It is mulletastic.
36:29
SPEAKER_04: And it's it it it was just it it you know, it was all they would play it like before the game or after the games, I think, and they would play it at the stadium, they would play it on the radio.
36:40
SPEAKER_04: And um, it was kind of became the anthem for the pirates during that time, you gotta believe.
36:45
SPEAKER_04: So that was just a lot of fun.
36:48
SPEAKER_04: Um you know, the pirates are finally good.
36:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh the pirates are also in like big win-now mode.
36:55
SPEAKER_04: They they trade away, they make a trade late in the season where they trade away future six-time all-star Moises-alou for a pitcher named Zayn Smith.
37:04
SPEAKER_04: We talked about Zayn Smith on our B team episode.
37:08
SPEAKER_04: And uh the Pirates, you know, Moises-Allu was this really good prospect, and I think a lot of people knew he was going to be really good, and he was.
37:15
SPEAKER_04: He was a great player for sure.
37:18
SPEAKER_04: But Moises-alou was not gonna help the Pirates win in 1990 or 91 or 92.
37:24
SPEAKER_04: But Zayn Smith did, like they needed a pitcher, they needed somebody to fill that void in the rotation.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: It's probably one of the few trades that worked out well for both places.
37:33
SPEAKER_04: It did, yeah, it really did because um Where'd he go to Montreal?
37:37
SPEAKER_04: He went to Montreal, yeah, and later Chicago.
37:40
SPEAKER_04: And and again, was a very, you know, great, great player.
37:43
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but again, the Pirates were in win now mode, and it's just fun to look funny to kind of look back on that.
37:49
SPEAKER_04: There was a time when the Pirates were the team, you know, trading their prospects for somebody that could help them win now.
37:56
SPEAKER_04: You you might never see that again.
37:59
SPEAKER_04: Uh so the Pirates make it to the NLCS where they run into just a powerhouse Cincinnati Reds team.
38:05
SPEAKER_04: The Reds that year went wire to wire, which meant they were in first place from day one of the season, and they never relinquished it.
38:13
SPEAKER_04: They they um eventually would sweep the Oakland Athletics in the World Series, which is which I think the Pirates series went more like five games.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, six games.
38:23
SPEAKER_04: The Pirates, yeah, the Pirates do put up a little bit of a fight.
38:26
SPEAKER_04: I mean, but the Reds are clearly the better team.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: And well, that's that that weird.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: I think they showed that part of that one, that one game.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: They picked the guy off at like second at the end of the game.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: And the but the highlight of that game was Marge Marge Shott smoking in the stands at Riverfront Stadium.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Like literally first row.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh my gosh, it's Marge Shott.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: He was a things that would not happen today for a hundred, Alex.
38:51
SPEAKER_04: He was a very flamboyant.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: The owner sitting, not only the owner sitting in the front row, the owner sitting in the front row while smoking like a Marlboro.
39:01
SPEAKER_04: He had a dog too.
39:02
SPEAKER_04: Remember that dog she named after I think her dog's name was like Shotzi.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
39:07
SPEAKER_04: He was he was a character.
39:09
SPEAKER_04: Um I mean, but yeah, when they swept Oakland, I mean Oakland was the th the three-time defending AL champions.
39:15
SPEAKER_04: They had like Jose Canseco and Mark McGuire and Dave Stewart and Dennis Eckersley, like they were a powerhouse team and they and Cincinnati swept them in the World Series.
39:23
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, the Pirates just aren't up to the task.
39:26
SPEAKER_04: They're also kind of like the new blood team.
39:29
SPEAKER_04: They're just sort of getting their feet wet in success.
39:32
SPEAKER_04: So it's disappointing, but you know, there's a lot of hope for the future after that season.
39:37
SPEAKER_04: I'm not going to go real in detail about that NLCS, but I do want to make one note that happened during that series was that the star players really do not produce.
39:47
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and that's unfortunately the start of a trend.
39:51
SPEAKER_04: So so now we head into the 1990 offseason, and uh so so there was one big story that happened in that offseason.
40:00
SPEAKER_04: Uh the Pirates, in 1990, their starting first baseman was a player named Sid Bream.
40:04
SPEAKER_04: Sid Bream had been with the Pirates since the like the lean years.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: Uh and he has a very solid bounce back season in 1990.
40:12
SPEAKER_04: He had missed most of 1989 with an injury, and he actually wins the Hutch Award, which is an award they gave in Major League Baseball for like persevering through adversity.
40:21
SPEAKER_04: So he's a pretty good little season.
40:23
SPEAKER_04: Um and after the season, he's a free agent.
40:25
SPEAKER_04: And Pirates Management comes out and publicly states in the media that re-signing Bream is, quote, their number one priority for the 1990 offseason.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: Bream Badley wants to stay too.
40:38
SPEAKER_04: He's he's from Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
40:40
SPEAKER_04: And when he was traded from the Dodgers to the Pirates back in 1985, he called it, quote, a dream come true.
40:48
SPEAKER_04: So it it just seems like, hey, this this this should be pretty easy to make happen.
40:53
SPEAKER_04: Uh well it it things go south.
40:56
SPEAKER_04: Um and and I have a personal story from back then.
40:59
SPEAKER_04: So this so that fall, I was coming out of school one day, probably like November, it was after the season had ended, uh, and this was going on.
41:07
SPEAKER_04: And my mom was picking me up from school, and I went out to meet her at the park in the parking lot, and she wasn't in her car.
41:13
SPEAKER_04: And I look around and I see that she's over at this other car talking to to this man in this other car.
41:19
SPEAKER_04: And I can see that the man she's talking to is crying, like very emotionally, like tears streaming down his face, crying.
41:26
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, oh my gosh.
41:27
SPEAKER_04: So I just kind of wait, you know, until she's done because I don't want to walk over there and you know, awkwardly be like, hey, what's up?
41:34
SPEAKER_04: Uh so she comes back and I said, Hey, Mom, what what's what's going on?
41:37
SPEAKER_04: Like, who who who's that guy?
41:39
SPEAKER_04: Why is he so upset?
41:40
SPEAKER_04: And my mom said, Oh, that's Sid Bream.
41:42
SPEAKER_04: And Sid Bream's son went to our school.
41:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Steve and I went to the same school.
41:46
SPEAKER_04: Wait, Sid Bream's son went to our school and he was there to pick up his son, and and I said, Well, why is he crying?
41:52
SPEAKER_04: And she said, Well, because he just found out that that he's not going to be back in Pittsburgh playing for the Pirates.
41:57
SPEAKER_04: And and what had happened was that the Pirates uh they they only offered Bream a fraction of fair market price.
42:06
SPEAKER_04: And the the Atlanta Braves came in and actually made him a much bigger offer.
42:10
SPEAKER_04: And even with the bad offer, Bream and his wife, they they say that they they stayed up all night thinking about this and they decide, you know what, money's not everything.
42:21
SPEAKER_04: Like we really love it here.
42:23
SPEAKER_04: We want to stay here.
42:24
SPEAKER_04: Let's just take the bad offer from the pirates, because that's how badly they wanted to stay in Pittsburgh.
42:29
SPEAKER_04: And the only thing that Bream asked for is a no-trade clause in his contract because he doesn't want to take a bad offer to stay.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: And then not get the money and then get traded anyway.
42:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and then like in spring training, they're like, ooh, we can get prospects for you.
42:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
42:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
42:43
SPEAKER_04: And and the pirates won't even do that for him, which makes it pretty obvious that, you know, that really the only reason they want to bring him back is for low money so they can use him as a bargaining chip in a trade.
42:54
SPEAKER_04: Um and and you know, from the pirates' perspective, they have Gary Reedis ready to take over the position at first base.
43:01
SPEAKER_04: Bream's knees were shot, he had had multiple surgeries, he's on the back end of his career.
43:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's a business, blah, blah, blah.
43:10
SPEAKER_04: But then why why did you come out and say that re signing him is your number one priority?
43:14
SPEAKER_01: That might have been a mistake.
43:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, you're you basically just lied to the fan.
43:18
SPEAKER_04: Because Bream was very popular, and I think they just did that to lie to the fans, and then they could make it look like, oh, well, we tried to resign them, but you know, somebody else offered him more money.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: And I just You're just better off not saying anything.
43:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, or or if you don't, or if you think he's done and he has all these knee surgeries, then just say, hey man, thanks for everything.
43:37
SPEAKER_04: We wish you the best of luck elsewhere.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: Or just come on and say, well, here's our offer.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna offer you to no trade.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: We might trade you in the middle of the season.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: Here's the offer.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: Go out and see what else.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, you could have just been honest.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is our offer, this is our plans.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: If they don't if you want to go somewhere else and you know get a better offer, with you know, then go for it.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: God bless you.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, exactly, exactly.
43:59
SPEAKER_04: That would have been the classic.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, it's just at least be honest, you know.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: But but that's not I mean there's no real advantage to being dishonest there, you know.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:08
SPEAKER_04: Well, and and yeah, I I just they they they did him wrong there, and uh you know it it's it's and it comes back to haunt them like like nothing has ever come back to haunt the team.
44:22
SPEAKER_04: Probably ever.
44:23
SPEAKER_04: Um so so now the 1991 season begins, and and honestly, when the 91 season begins, that's the Bream thing's almost an afterthought because the Pirates have an excellent, excellent team in '91.
44:36
SPEAKER_04: Uh Van Slake later says that it's the most talented team he's ever played on.
44:40
SPEAKER_04: I'd take it a step further, Steve.
44:41
SPEAKER_04: I'd say this is the 91 team, in my opinion, is the best team that they've had since the 79 World Series team.
44:49
SPEAKER_04: I mean, and I know there's not a lot to pick from in the last 40 years.
44:52
SPEAKER_04: You know, you're probably only five or six teams you could even pick from.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: The one with Garrett Cole that won the wild card game.
44:58
SPEAKER_04: That was pretty cool.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, they were wild card there still, but yeah, I mean that that was a good team.
45:02
SPEAKER_04: The the team that won 98 games in 2015 was pretty good.
45:05
SPEAKER_04: And and then the other two teams from this era, but that team was just so loaded with talent.
45:11
SPEAKER_04: Like, like the players that they had on that team.
45:13
SPEAKER_04: Um, Bonds continues to be the best player in baseball.
45:16
SPEAKER_04: He's he's robbed of a second consecutive MVP award, in my opinion.
45:20
SPEAKER_04: If you go back and look at the stats that year, um he he's the best player in baseball, but I think you know it's it's an award that's voted on.
45:29
SPEAKER_04: And when people don't like you, they're not gonna vote for you.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: Who did win the MVP in 91?
45:34
SPEAKER_04: It's it's Terry Pendelman of the Braves, and we'll we'll talk about the Braves later because they obviously play into the season.
45:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, but again, if you look at statistics and everything else, I mean, I thought Bonds was the runaway MVP that year, but again, people don't like Bonds already by this point.
45:50
SPEAKER_04: Um Bonia and Jay Bell finish in the top 12 for National League MVP voting.
45:55
SPEAKER_04: Orlando Merced, actually, we we mentioned Gary Redis was like the um the future at first base.
46:01
SPEAKER_04: Well, Orlando Merced's a rookie, and he eventually supplants um Reedis as the first baseman.
46:08
SPEAKER_04: He finishes second in the National League Rookie of the Year voting.
46:11
SPEAKER_04: So they have these really good offensive players, and then they have three pitchers who win 15 plus games.
46:17
SPEAKER_04: Zane Smith, Doug Graybeck, and then John Smiley.
46:20
SPEAKER_04: Uh Smiley had always been like a solid pitcher for the Pirates, but this is really his career year.
46:26
SPEAKER_04: He wins 20 games and he finishes third in the National League Cy Young voting.
46:31
SPEAKER_04: So it's just an absolute stacked lineup.
46:33
SPEAKER_04: They win 98 games.
46:35
SPEAKER_04: That's the best record in all of Major League Baseball.
46:38
SPEAKER_04: They become the first National League team in 13 years to repeat as a division champion.
46:42
SPEAKER_04: So that was a big deal.
46:43
SPEAKER_04: Like it was not easy to repeat.
46:45
SPEAKER_04: Um, and they were the first team in 13 years to do it.
46:48
SPEAKER_04: And they set an attendance record at Three River Stadium, which is such a um comeback from where they were in the mid-80s.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, it was tough to always fill that.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: They always had Charles like at 50,000 fans.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: That was probably a little bit big for baseball.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
47:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but that year a lot of people came out to see them.
47:07
SPEAKER_04: Um so some highlights from that season, it kind of starts off rocky.
47:12
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bonds and Leland get into a shouting match in spring training.
47:15
SPEAKER_04: And Steve, you've probably seen that clip before.
47:18
SPEAKER_04: It's been showed a hundred times, it was showed a thousand times back then.
47:22
SPEAKER_04: And I'd love to see like the the raw clip of it, because every time I've seen it, you can't understand every every other word is bleeped.
47:29
SPEAKER_04: So you can't even understand what they're saying, but they're pretty animated shouting at each other.
47:35
SPEAKER_04: And I think even at this point, I think people are starting to realize like Barry Bonds is not a likable person, uh, even though he's a great player.
47:44
SPEAKER_04: Um, April 21st, 1991, there's a game against the Cubs that still to this day probably has to go down as one of the all-time great Pirates games.
47:52
SPEAKER_04: Uh they trail the Cubs by five runs, but they come all the way back to tie the game and send it into extra innings.
47:59
SPEAKER_04: In the top of the 11th inning, the Cubs again go up by five runs, um, mostly due to an Andre Andre Dawson grand slam.
48:08
SPEAKER_04: You know The Hawk.
48:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I always hated Andre Dawson.
48:12
SPEAKER_04: And and I was looking at the slid head first.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: Was he the one that always slid head first?
48:15
SPEAKER_04: No, that was Tim Raines.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: That was Tim Raines.
48:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
48:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Andre Dawson did not have a cocaine problem, as far as I know.
48:21
SPEAKER_04: But but but I was like, why did I hate Andre Dawson?
48:24
SPEAKER_04: Like, what did he ever do?
48:25
SPEAKER_04: And I I really think it was just because he you I think he used to always kill the pirates.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: I I do remember him being like good, yeah.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: And so what did the Cubs ever win back then?
48:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, they were not.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Not a lot.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:38
SPEAKER_04: And they had it, they had some really talented teams, too.
48:41
SPEAKER_04: But Andre Dawson hits a grand slam, the Cubs again go up by five, and then in the bottom of the 11th, the Pirates again come all the way back from five runs down, this time all in the same inning, and this time they go, they score six runs, they win the game.
48:54
SPEAKER_04: So that was just un unbelievable to be down by five twice, to come back from down by five twice and to win the game.
49:00
SPEAKER_04: And again, going back to like I remember where I was.
49:03
SPEAKER_04: I this one I remember I was we were coming uh back from out of town, we were in the car, and we were listening to like the AM radio broadcast.
49:11
SPEAKER_04: Nice.
49:11
SPEAKER_04: You know, and we weren't we were Lanny for Terry in all his glory, yeah.
49:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Lanny and and uh Steve Blass and Jim Rooker and those guys, and it was like crackling because we weren't like in Pittsburgh yet.
49:22
SPEAKER_04: We were driving towards Pittsburgh, you know.
49:24
SPEAKER_04: But I remember listening to that game in the rad on the radio on the way back from a trip.
49:29
SPEAKER_04: Uh May 10th of that year, uh the Braves come to Three River Stadium, and it's Sid Bream's first game back in Pittsburgh, uh, but he's on the bench because of the pitching matchup.
49:39
SPEAKER_04: Uh and and the Pirates um win this game pretty easily.
49:43
SPEAKER_04: They're out to a big lead in the ninth inning.
49:45
SPEAKER_04: And so the Braves send up Bream to pinch hit, and the fans give him a huge ovation and they start chanting his name.
49:51
SPEAKER_04: And Bream responds by driving uh a ball to deep center field for a home run, and everybody just goes crazy.
49:57
SPEAKER_04: I even remember Lanny Frateri uh uh on on the broadcast of this game going, Gobo, get out of here.
50:03
SPEAKER_04: Like it was for a Braves home run, yeah.
50:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for a Braves home run.
50:07
SPEAKER_04: Um the the fans all demanded a curtain call.
50:09
SPEAKER_04: Like he they wanted him to come out of the dugout and tip his cap, which he does.
50:14
SPEAKER_04: Um it's it's it's a super unique moment because I I can't think of too many other times where, you know, I I know like when Marc-Andre Fleury came back, people gave him a big ovation, stuff like that.
50:24
SPEAKER_04: But like for for a player doing something against a Pittsburgh team and everybody cheering.
50:30
SPEAKER_04: Now, granted, like again, it didn't impact the game, the Pirates are already already gonna win.
50:34
SPEAKER_04: But I mean, it was just pretty cool that everybody wanted him to hit that home run, and he did.
50:38
SPEAKER_04: Um, and it just showed how much Bream was beloved in Pittsburgh.
50:42
SPEAKER_04: Uh, after this game, I pulled this from the uh newspaper article of this game.
50:46
SPEAKER_04: Barry Bonds has a very prophetic quote.
50:49
SPEAKER_04: He says, quote, Sid Bream has always been an important part of this club.
50:53
SPEAKER_04: Me, if I left and came back, I'd get booed.
50:56
SPEAKER_04: End quote.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: Well then, Barry.
51:01
SPEAKER_01: Let's not change your attitude at all.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: Keep doing the same thing you do.
51:04
SPEAKER_01: And then Yep.
51:07
SPEAKER_04: Uh August 12th, the Cardinals come to Three River Stadium.
51:10
SPEAKER_04: Uh they're right behind the Pirates in the National League standings, and they take a lead in the top of the 11th, in the bottom of the 11th.
51:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bonilla gets on first.
51:18
SPEAKER_04: That brings up Bonds against Hall of Famer Lee Smith.
51:22
SPEAKER_04: Uh Lee Smith, the Cardinals reliever, is in his absolute prime at this point.
51:26
SPEAKER_04: I mentioned that um Smiley finished third in the Cy Young award voting.
51:30
SPEAKER_04: Lee Smith finished second.
51:31
SPEAKER_04: So Lee Smith is very dominant that year.
51:34
SPEAKER_04: And in in probably his most iconic moment as a pirate, Bonds crushes a 3-2 pitch to right field for the game-winning home run.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: I remember that was on all the like news and commercials, like everything for a long time after that.
51:48
SPEAKER_04: It's it's the one where as soon as he hits it, he like sticks both arms into the air.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can see like the crowd, yeah.
51:53
SPEAKER_04: He sticks like both arms straight up in the air.
51:55
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
51:55
SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's an iconic moment.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: Because like they have it, like the view is normally from like the dugout.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like like the one you don't even see Lee Smith, you just see Bonds like crush the ball.
52:06
SPEAKER_04: Yes, and then stick his arms up.
52:07
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
52:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, to me, that's that's the signature Barry Bonds Pirates moment, that home run.
52:12
SPEAKER_04: It was a big game because the Cardinals were right behind them in the standings.
52:16
SPEAKER_04: Um, and and Bonds was just an immensely talented player, and he was clutch, uh, as long as it wasn't a playoff game.
52:25
SPEAKER_04: Um that team, the 91 team, it's also like a fun team.
52:29
SPEAKER_04: Um, the Pirates would would hold these like big around the world basketball tournaments in their in their clubhouse with like the foam basketball and like the little hoop.
52:38
SPEAKER_04: And and there's uh they would do like NCAA bracket style, uh like eliminations.
52:44
SPEAKER_04: And uh and they even the um at one point they get Marv Albert, the basketball guy.
52:49
SPEAKER_04: I remember watching this.
52:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like it's like the season highlights of that year.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes, Marv Albert like narrates one of their around the world.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Like bonds for three.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
53:00
SPEAKER_04: Yep, yep.
53:01
SPEAKER_04: And and the one that Marv Albert does.
53:03
SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't know who used to win these most often, but the one I know the one that Marv Albert does, the final four in the brackets is Bonds, Vance Lake, LeVallier, and Curtis Wilkerson.
53:12
SPEAKER_04: And Wilkerson's the guy that wins.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: Mike LeValier in on our boy didn't see that one coming.
53:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you wouldn't.
53:18
SPEAKER_01: Of all the people.
53:19
SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, it was foam basketball, so I'm not sure Spanky would have been, you know, dunking on a cord or anything.
53:26
unknown: Yeah.
53:26
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, yeah, he was not the tallest guy.
53:28
SPEAKER_04: And we'll watch the talk about that actually factors in too uh uh later as well.
53:34
SPEAKER_04: Um they also used to give out this award called the Sammy Award.
53:37
SPEAKER_04: It was named after Sammy Khalifa, who is the middling shortstop that played for the Pirates in the middle of the year.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:45
SPEAKER_01: He he the only one of the few Egyptian players to play in Major League Baseball.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Was he?
53:50
SPEAKER_01: That's a fun fact.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:51
SPEAKER_04: Um so Sammy was gone by that point, but they had named the award after him.
53:55
SPEAKER_04: And the award was for a player who had done something stupid during a win.
54:00
SPEAKER_04: So so I guess you know it would have been like bad team chemistry to give out a uh, you know, the you did something stupid during a loss because then you're blaming somebody for the loss.
54:08
SPEAKER_04: So the the you could only give this award during a win.
54:12
SPEAKER_04: And like some of the examples, uh Jim Leland uh got it one time because uh Bonia had struck out and he was arguing balls and strikes with the umpire, and he kept looking over at the dugout for Leland to come out and you know argue with him.
54:25
SPEAKER_04: And Leland's actually in the bathroom.
54:30
SPEAKER_04: So he gets the Stammy Award for that.
54:33
SPEAKER_04: Uh Jay Bell forgot his glove one time he went out without a glove.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: So he's gonna play like 19th century style shortstop, too.
54:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he was a shortstop, so that wasn't good.
54:46
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, just like it was a fun team.
54:48
SPEAKER_04: Like they were having fun, they were winning games, and it was a like, you know, other than Bonds, it was a likable team uh that was fun to root for.
54:55
SPEAKER_04: So they're gonna go back to the playoffs as the um Eastern Division winner.
55:00
SPEAKER_04: The other division winner in the National League is the Atlanta Braves.
55:03
SPEAKER_04: And this is a just a huge surprise because if there's any team that was like worse than the Pirates.
55:09
SPEAKER_04: It was the Braves, yeah.
55:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, in the 80s, it was the Atlanta Braves.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: It was Dale Murphy and like 20 other guys.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh, that was about it.
55:16
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
55:16
SPEAKER_04: I uh they're terrible.
55:18
SPEAKER_04: They're just a uh a totally worthless franchise.
55:21
SPEAKER_01: And for the Guerin for a little bit.
55:24
SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah.
55:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, sure.
55:27
SPEAKER_04: But by this point in the 80s, again, just like the Pirates, they had become mostly irrelevant.
55:31
SPEAKER_04: Um, they had lost close to 100 games for the previous three seasons.
55:35
SPEAKER_04: Their general manager is a guy named Bobby Cox, and just like the Pirates were doing, you know, Bobby Cox is using these last place finishes to build for the future.
55:44
SPEAKER_04: Um he he collects this, you know, nice um group of pretty good young players like David Justice and Ron Gantt.
55:52
SPEAKER_04: Uh and he he figures that you know the the only piece that's really missing is that this team doesn't have a manager.
55:59
SPEAKER_04: So in 1990, he fires the manager and makes himself the manager.
56:03
SPEAKER_04: And by 1991, um they're they're ready to start winning.
56:08
SPEAKER_04: And what really makes the Braves talented, I mentioned they had some good, you know, uh hitters, but but it's their pitching staff.
56:14
SPEAKER_04: They had a rotation of four dominant starting pitchers, and this is before they had Greg Maddox, by the way.
56:20
SPEAKER_04: They got Greg Maddox, I want to say, a year or two later.
56:23
SPEAKER_04: Um but but there's four starting pitchers in '91 were Tom Glavin, who won, who wins the Cy Young Award that year.
56:28
SPEAKER_04: Uh Steve Avery, who's a 21-year-old kid who wins 18 games, Charlie Lebrandt, who's a veteran, who also has a very solid year.
56:36
SPEAKER_04: And then like the quote unquote like worst pitcher of that group is Hall of Famer John Smoltz.
56:42
SPEAKER_04: And I say worst because he only wins 14 games, which, you know, on any other team would be a good one.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: I remember Avery was really good.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: I remember Avery more than Smoltz for some reason.
56:51
SPEAKER_04: Avery, the reason you remember that, I I I bet the reason you remember that is because the NLCS, and we'll get into that.
56:58
SPEAKER_04: Um we we mentioned Pendleton uh being named the league MVP.
57:02
SPEAKER_04: He was a guy that had kind of like flamed out in St.
57:04
SPEAKER_04: Louis and really resurrected his career in Atlanta.
57:08
SPEAKER_04: And it was a great story.
57:09
SPEAKER_04: They were like worst to first.
57:10
SPEAKER_04: I mean, they came out of nowhere, nobody saw that coming.
57:13
SPEAKER_04: The Atlanta Braves are now a powerhouse team and would be for the rest of the decade.
57:17
SPEAKER_04: So that's that's the matchup in the NLCS.
57:20
SPEAKER_04: And and I want to dig into that 91 NLCS because, Steve, I don't know why, but I I can remember very vividly every it was a seven-game series, it went all seven games.
57:30
SPEAKER_04: I can remember every game vividly, more so than 92.
57:34
SPEAKER_04: Uh, game one starts off uh um great.
57:37
SPEAKER_04: It's a three-over stadium, Vanslike Homer's off Glavin in the first inning, the Pirates roll to an easy five-nothing victory.
57:45
SPEAKER_04: And I I remember the feeling after that game was wow, this is so different than the previous year, where you know it was obvious that the Pirates were like the newcomers, that they were overmatched by Cincinnati, and and now they look like the veteran championship team, and the Braves look like the team that, like, you know, maybe maybe this is just their starting point.
58:03
SPEAKER_04: Maybe it's next year or future years for them.
58:06
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but then the momentum swings very quickly.
58:09
SPEAKER_04: Atlanta takes game two, and a one-to-nothing victory, Steve.
58:12
SPEAKER_04: There, there's your guy, Stevie Gabriel.
58:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
58:14
SPEAKER_04: So so he he beats the Pirates one to nothing in game two, and then the Braves back in Atlanta blow out the Pirates in game three.
58:22
SPEAKER_04: So now the Braves are up two to one in the series.
58:24
SPEAKER_04: And the Pirates' bats are starting to go very cold, especially with that heart of the order outfield that we mentioned.
58:31
SPEAKER_04: Vance goes four of 25 in the series, and two of those hits come in game one.
58:37
unknown: Wow.
58:37
SPEAKER_04: So we mentioned like the home run in game one.
58:39
SPEAKER_04: So after game one, he only gets two more hits in the rest of the series.
58:42
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bonia fares a little bit better, but he doesn't really make an impact.
58:45
SPEAKER_04: He has one RBI, that's also in game one.
58:48
SPEAKER_04: And then uh Bonds goes four of 27 in the series, zero home runs, zero RBIs.
58:56
SPEAKER_04: That's a seven-game series in which the best player in baseball uh doesn't, you know, gets four hits and doesn't hit a home run.
59:04
SPEAKER_04: So that was just disastrous.
59:07
SPEAKER_04: Uh the Pirates are bowed out in game four by like the non-star players.
59:11
SPEAKER_04: That that game goes into the 10th inning, and the Pirates really need to win because they're gonna go down three to one.
59:16
SPEAKER_04: And Bonia and Bonds are the first two batters in that inning, and they both get out.
59:22
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but then Steve Bouchel and Mike LeValier at the bottom of the order uh get the Pirates to go ahead run.
59:28
SPEAKER_04: I think I want to say Jose Lean made a big play earlier in that game, too.
59:31
SPEAKER_04: So you have like the Jose Leans and Mike LeValiers and Steve Bouchels are the ones, you know, making the big hits, and you have Vance Lake Boney and Bonds doing nothing.
59:40
SPEAKER_04: Uh that sets up, so that was a big win.
59:43
SPEAKER_04: That sets up a pivotal game five in Atlanta.
59:45
SPEAKER_04: The series is tied two to two.
59:47
SPEAKER_04: And again, the Pirates aren't able to generate a lot of offense.
59:50
SPEAKER_04: They only score one run against Glavin.
59:52
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but Zayn Smith is on, is pitching for the Pirates.
59:56
SPEAKER_04: He pitches a masterpiece, and the Braves are also only able to muster one run.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_04: However, the Braves have their one run disqualified when David Justice misses third base.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_04: So David Justice is is rounding third base on his way to home and he's like stumbles and tries to drag his foot over the base.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_04: The umps say, Nope, you never touched it, and he's out.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_04: And the Pirates win one to nothing on that on really Did they appeal?
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: I guess the Pirates appealed that.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_04: I I mean there was no instant replay then.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_01: I I Well, I mean they have to throw over and all that.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, they had to they had to like they threw the ball to third base and then the umps said you're out.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_04: Right.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_04: And and people in Atlanta were furious.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_04: So it was it was sort of a controversial game.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_04: Uh but it puts the Pirates up three to two.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, even though the Pirates have struggled in the hitting department against these good Atlanta pitchers, they come back to Pittsburgh for game six and seven, needing to just win one of those two games to earn a trip to the World Series.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_04: And that game five in Atlanta, we we talked about this too in our 80s Steelers episode.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_04: That game five in Atlanta was on a Monday afternoon, and that night the Steelers are playing the Giants on Monday Night Football at the River Stadium, and the Giants go up like 20 to nothing in the first half.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_04: And everybody at the Steelers game starts chanting, let's go bucks, let's go box.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_04: Because like who cares?
1:01:13
SPEAKER_04: The Steelers stunk that year.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_04: It's like, who cares about the Steelers?
1:01:16
SPEAKER_04: We're gonna go to the World Series, go bucks.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_04: And that was that was almost a surreal scene.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_04: I wish I would have had that like a video camera of that because talk about stuff you're likely to never again see in your entire life.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_04: Um, people, you know, chanting let's go bucks at a Steeler game.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_04: So, so again, everybody's really excited.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_04: Uh Avery's on the mound again for game six, and again, Avery wins one to nothing.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_04: I mean, for he was 21 years old, and for him to win two games in that series, one to nothing, I mean, that was pretty clutch.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and then Smiley is the ace that year, he's on the mound in game seven, but he gets totally rocked in that game.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_04: He actually doesn't even make it out of the first inning.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_04: And the Braves roll four to nothing, and they end the Pirates season.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and it it really stunk.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_04: I mean, the Pirates had such a good team that year.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_04: And then they had two games at home to win the pennant, and they failed to score a run in either game.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_04: Like, they got shot out at home for game six and seven.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_04: Uh, that that was just super disappointing.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh, that would have set up a Pittsburgh versus Minnesota World Series, which would have been so cool because those two cities had played each other a few months earlier for the Stanley Cup.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and so it would have been like Pittsburgh versus Minnesota part two.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_04: Um and the twins were really good that year.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_04: That could have been a heck of a series, but it doesn't happen.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_04: Um after that season, Bonia is a free agent, and he leaves to go sign with the New York Mets, which is a deal that worked out really, really badly for the New York Mets who are still paying him to this day.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: Um Bonnie's got to get paid.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bonds and Draybek are also on their final year of their contracts.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_04: So uh you know, Bon Bonilla is already gone.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bonds and Draybek, you know, you don't know what's gonna happen with them.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_04: And then the Pirates really shock everyone by trading Smiley to the twins right before the 92 season starts.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_04: The economics of like managing teams at this point was was a mess.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_04: Um you just had teams like the Pirates, it was really difficult for them to compete.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_04: They had lost seven million dollars in 1991 despite having that attendance record.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_04: And the economics were really uneven, and they're still uneven today.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_04: I mean, baseball doesn't have a salary cap, but they did implement revenue sharing and some other things some other measures that would at least help teams like this h have some kind of a chance.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't think TV contracts were quite where they like cable was still like new kid on the block, you know, and they hadn't, you know, ESPN hadn't become what it would, and even you know, the regional ATT or whatever, what was it, KBL back then, they would hope show pirate games, but it wasn't like it is now where every pirate game is on you know that that's worth a lot of money to the team.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_01: So that was a revenue stream they weren't, you know, wasn't uh available to that team at that point.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and I think uh I think we as fans all saw that coming.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_04: I mean Bonilla left and and you thought, boy, you they're probably gonna lose Drayback in bonds.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_04: I think when they traded Smiley before the 92 season, because I because I think everybody thought, okay, 92 is gonna be that one last run, yeah, but then they trade Smiley before the season starts, and it's like, wait, are are they giving up already?
1:04:35
SPEAKER_04: Like, are they basically saying it's oh the window's closed?
1:04:38
SPEAKER_04: Uh that was that was shocking because and they traded him for prospects for Denny Nagel and Midre Cummings.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_04: Like, so so you know, and the twins were the defending World Series champion, so it was like uh I mean that's the kind of trade you would make in July when you're out of it.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_04: It's not the trade you would make in spring training with your pitcher that had won 20 games.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_04: So that was that was pretty shocking.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_04: Uh if you ever watch This Is Us, there's a they do a whole episode where young Kevin Pearson uh um in the John Smiley trade.
1:05:08
SPEAKER_04: So uh so yeah, that's the way the 92 season kind of starts.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_04: Um and when again we we talked about Van Slick said 91 was the most talented team he played on, but he also says that 92 was like the best team, like the best team he ever played on.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_04: And like it I feel like you see that a lot in sports where one year a team might have more talent, but then another year is when they like put it all together to win.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_01: It's just the chemistry is better, right?
1:05:38
SPEAKER_01: Like the players complement each other a little better, like their weaknesses and strengths fit together, you know?
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: It's kinda like like I think of like that Steelers that they had with Le'Veon Bell, Brown, and you know, Rothelsberger, like that team won nothing.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: And then a big part of it is you had two schmucks on your team.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_01: So Right, right.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_04: Well and and And sometimes like I I just like try I was just trying to trying to think of recent teams.
1:06:04
SPEAKER_04: The the Tampa Bay Lightning set the the NHL record for wins in a season in twenty nineteen.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_01: And then got swept, yeah.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and they didn't win anything, but then the the year after that, when they weren't as good as they were that year before, they won it all.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_04: So the this you mentioned the Steelers and remember they were fifteen and one in 04, but then they won the Super Bowl in 05.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_04: Again, you just uh it that happens sometimes, and that was Van kind of what Van Slick said about that 92 team.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_04: Uh here's a great trivia question, Steve.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_04: Um so Bonilla's gone.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_04: Who's the opening day starter in right field for the Pirates to replace Bonilla?
1:06:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, actually.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_04: Kirk Gibson.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's right.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they had a yeah.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_04: Kirk Kirk Kirk, I can't believe what I just saw.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_04: Hero of the 1988 World Series.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, I remember they had Glenn Wilson too, that I always loved.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_01: That was like in the 80s.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so Glenn Wilson poor pulled a Kirk Gibson before Kirk Gibson.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_01: Like it was in the middle of the season, he like waddled off the bench and like, I'm hurt, I can't run.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, you gotta hit a home run.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_01: That's the only thing you can do.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_01: Because that's what Kirk Gibson did, and if he didn't know to home run, he was gonna be out or like walking the first very slowly.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was his and that was his only a bat of that series.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, Kirk Gibson, everybody you know knows who he is because that he hit one of the most famous home runs in baseball history.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh and he's the opening day starter.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_04: He did not last very long.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_04: I think the pirates I mean, I I thought him as a wide receiver from Michigan State, but I think the I think the Pirates signed him as like a maybe he's got something left in the tank, and then it was pretty clear he he wasn't.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_04: I don't I think he was waived by like May of that season, so he wasn't there very long, but I think that's a a great curvia question.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_04: He was actually the the opening day starter in right field.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_04: He was out there the whole time going, yeah.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_04: And Jack Buck was going, I can't believe what I just saw.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_04: Um Draybick wins 15 games that year.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_04: He has a really good season again.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_04: He posted 2.77 ERA.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_04: Uh Randy Tomlin's a guy we we haven't mentioned yet.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_04: Um he was also uh a really solid pitcher during that time for the Pirates.
1:08:08
SPEAKER_04: He kind of steps up to fill the void left by Smiley.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_04: He wins 14 games that year.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_04: That's a big year for him.
1:08:13
SPEAKER_04: Steve, I think you knew him, didn't you?
1:08:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I went to the same church.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_01: We sat in the same pew.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_01: Him and um who's the other guy?
1:08:21
SPEAKER_01: He he pitched for the Mets.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_01: The guy was the second spitter in Seinfeld.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: Um McDowell, Roger McDowell.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Roger McDowell.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Roger McDowell went to our church too.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_01: Because I think McDowell was with the Pirates for a minute somewhere in there.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_01: But Tomlin was like that lefty, crafty kind of lefty.
1:08:37
SPEAKER_01: I remember his first game, he had a really good outing.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_01: He like pitched a no-hitter or something or a one-run game into the seventh or eighth or something.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_01: Like his first game out.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_01: He didn't have a very long career though.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_04: No, no, but he was again during this time, just like Zayn Smith and these other guys, he really um was a key contributor.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_04: Uh by this point, Belinda has become the main closer.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_04: Uh Bill Landrum had led the team in saves in 90 and 91, but he's gone by this point, and now Belinda is firmly the guy that Leland trusts to come in and close out the game.
1:09:09
SPEAKER_01: They never really had a closer.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_01: Like that that was probably like their pitching was always weak on these teams, outside of like Drabick or like Smiley, but like they never really had like that lockdown, like closer guy.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_01: Like Jim Gott, like I said, I like Jim Gott.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_01: But I remember him like opening the one season, like he walked in the winning winning run, and then he like never really was a closer again for the Pirates.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_04: So so what was your take on Belinda?
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: Because I I know for me, I mean I didn't really I didn't really have I I just I just remember like I like Jim Gott, and I never thought Bill Landrum was all that great.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that Bill Landrum was kind of mediocre, but like I mean I he was just like they never really had a bullpen.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, I mean Belinda Belinda used to always make me nervous.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_04: Like when he would come into the game, I just I never felt comfortable.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_01: Call call it the uh Mike Tomzak uh kind of feeling.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_04: And he wasn't bad.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_04: It wasn't like he was bad.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_04: Again, I think Mike Tomzak's a great comparison because Mike Tomzak could have these really great games, he could win you games, but then he could like blow it too.
1:10:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:10:13
SPEAKER_01: Normally in spectacular fashion.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah.
1:10:16
SPEAKER_04: And I felt like Belinda was the same way.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_04: He was certainly not, you know, uh uh we mentioned Lee Smith earlier or Dennis Eckersley or Trevor Hoffman.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_01: No, he they never had that guy.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_01: I think that was one of the gold most glaring weaknesses of that that era was they never had that guy.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_01: They were built more on hitting, and they always say, you know, pitching wins.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_04: Oh well, and and like I said, Landrum led the team in saves, but he was not like the if you look at the stats, he he didn't have like 40 saves and the next guy had like two.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_01: No, it was pretty spread out.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_04: It was spread out, right?
1:10:48
SPEAKER_04: So he wasn't even the cl like the closer.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_04: So so Belinda by this point, he's really the guy, again, that comes in late in games, and again, we're gonna we're mentioning that because it's gonna come into play later.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_04: Uh Van Slick had a great season that year.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_04: He makes the all-star game.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_04: He actually finishes fourth in the in the MVP voting.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_04: Uh so he he really steps up.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_04: You know, Bonia's gone, and Van Slick really steps up and shows he's a great player too.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_04: But it's really Bonds who carries the team on his back offensively.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I I talked about you know how how Willie Mays and Bobby Bonds taught him to have that chip on his shoulder.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_04: And maybe, you know, Pendleton getting the MVP the year before, and then Bonilla leaving, you know, because because I think they'd move Bonds into the cleanup position that year after Bonilla left.
1:11:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think Bonds Bonds used to lead off like early in his career.
1:11:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was a lead-off.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_01: Because I remember him like I remember one time I came home, my grandpa was like, yeah, the first guy up, like hit a home run.
1:11:42
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, it's Barry Bond.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he was the leadoff better because he because of his speed.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_04: And then during the 90s teams, he was he batted fifth behind Bonilla in Vance Lake, and when Bonilla left, they they moved into the cleanup spot.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_04: So I mean, I don't know, maybe he just feels like he has a lot to prove that year.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_04: He hits 34 home runs, drives in 103 runs, steals 39 bases, and does all this despite being walked 127 times.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_01: Who bats sixth?
1:12:08
SPEAKER_01: Whoever is batting sixth is getting a lot of opportunity to get it.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_04: Well, fifth because bonds batted fifth.
1:12:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:12:14
SPEAKER_01: Whoever is batting fifth is like you're always batting with a man on base pretty much.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_04: It was it was Merced.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_04: Merced batted fifth that year.
1:12:21
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_04: Yep, that was that was good for him.
1:12:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:12:24
SPEAKER_04: Um, so so Bonds is easily named MVP this time.
1:12:27
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you however many sports writers didn't like him, had no choice but to vote for him as MVP that year.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_04: He just was that dominant.
1:12:34
SPEAKER_04: So, highlights of that season, there there really aren't a lot of dramatic games.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_04: I mean, by this point, the Pirates are sort of a veteran group of winners.
1:12:41
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, the the the closest anybody came to giving them a run was um the Expos, who tie them for first place in July.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_04: But then after that, the Pirates go on a 12-1 stretch uh of games where they it was entirely against the Cardinals and Mets, but they go 12-1 and they like never look back from there.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_04: They're they're in first place and they win the division for a third year in a row.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_04: Um, probably the biggest highlight of that season happens on July 31st, when when the Pirates call up a pitcher from AAA Buffalo by the name of Tim Wakefield.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_04: And um, Tim Wakefield's quite the story.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_04: He he's a mediocre, pretty mediocre minor league first baseman who, you know, most people agree he's never going to make it to the majors.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and one day he just starts fooling around with a knuckleball, and all of a sudden he becomes a pitcher.
1:13:31
SPEAKER_04: And so, Steve, I don't I don't know if you can describe like what a knuckleball is in a knuckleball pitcher.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, uh knuckleball is you you you hold it, it's just like it describes you hold it with your knuckles, and the purpose of doing that is so you don't put like most like if you're throwing a curve or even a fastball, there's a lot of spin on the ball, and those pitches can either go straight or move due on how you spin it, you know, like a curve or a slider, I think they spin opposite ways.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, a knuckleball is like the antithesis of all of that.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_01: The knuckleball is a pitch that has no spin or very little, and it only it isn't like thrown at ninety miles an hour, it's only thrown at like 50 to 60 miles an hour.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_01: But it goes number one, if the speed difference doesn't really kind of mess with you, the ball, like just because it has no spin on it, it's really kind of unpredictable.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, even the pitchers who throw it, like you can't really predict what it's gonna do.
1:14:29
SPEAKER_01: Like it'll hit the strike zone, but it kind of like it ducks and like it just does a lot of weird stuff.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_01: Like it'll move side to side, it'll move up and down.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_01: It it's really a very unpredictable pitch, and there's not a lot of people that can throw it.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_01: Never mind throw it for strikes.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: Like uh, who was the Charlie Huff, wasn't he?
1:14:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was in Knuckleball.
1:14:49
SPEAKER_04: Or the Necro brother.
1:14:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Phil Necro.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, when he wasn't like putting his Emery board on on the on the baseball.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_04: But you're right, it's not it's not a common thing.
1:14:57
SPEAKER_01: There aren't very many, and normally the guys that pitch like pitch forever who do it, like they're like 60, you know, I'm exactly they then they pitch well into their 40s.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's not taxing on your arm.
1:15:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's not like a curveball where you gotta flick, yeah.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_01: And it and it's and if you can consistently do it, you know, you'll last forever.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_04: And that's why in Wakefield, he's not even a pitcher, he's a first baseman.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, he just started goofing around.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_01: I remember this story because he he just started goofing around the outfield, like throwing it, and they were like, wait a minute, can you do that from the mound?
1:15:26
SPEAKER_04: It's like Yeah, yeah, and he makes it to the major leagues, not only makes it to the major leagues, he strikes out 10 in his first outing, earning a complete game victory, and then he goes eight and one the rest of the season with a 2.15 ERA.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_04: So in the last two months of the season, he's eight and one.
1:15:43
SPEAKER_04: He's it's just like a phenomenon in Pittsburgh.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_04: Um and, you know, you talked about that pitch being hard to hit.
1:15:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh the way Sid Breen described it, he said, quote, imagine being on a trampoline and trying to catch a ball while you're jumping up and down.
1:15:59
SPEAKER_04: That's what it's like with a good knuckleball.
1:16:02
SPEAKER_04: And and I feel like, you know, we we did an episode recently about Cordell Stewart, and we talked about how when he came into the NFL, like teams just didn't know how to game plan for him.
1:16:11
SPEAKER_04: They had like no answer.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_04: And I feel like that's how it was with Wakefield in '92.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_04: Like nobody had an answer for Tim Wakefield.
1:16:18
SPEAKER_04: So now this team that um is already really good, has the best player in baseball and Barry Bonds, uh, is gonna head into the playoffs with this like new weapon.
1:16:29
SPEAKER_04: And in the playoffs, they're gonna face Atlanta again, because now Atlanta is no longer the you know, uh Cinderella Darling.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_04: They're they're now a really good team.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_04: And uh it should be an exciting matchup.
1:16:41
SPEAKER_04: But what I remember going into the series was just this like sense of foreboding doom.
1:16:46
SPEAKER_01: Because of the last two years.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_04: Because of the last two years.
1:16:49
SPEAKER_04: And I I the game one, I remember that night, I I went to get a haircut, and the lady um was like, oh, game one tonight, are you excited?
1:16:59
SPEAKER_04: And I remember I said no.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, no, I'm not excited.
1:17:03
SPEAKER_04: This is like they're gonna blow it again.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_04: And sure enough, the Pirates dropped the first two games in Atlanta.
1:17:09
SPEAKER_04: Both games were blowouts, both have the same old story of the star players not doing anything.
1:17:15
SPEAKER_04: Um the the one game, the only run of the game for the Pirates is a Jose Lean solo home run.
1:17:21
SPEAKER_04: Uh I I don't have it in front of me how many home runs Jose Lean hit in his career.
1:17:25
SPEAKER_04: I bet it's less than 20.
1:17:26
SPEAKER_04: You know, when Jose Lean home run is your only run of the game, that's bad.
1:17:32
SPEAKER_04: That's really, really bad.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_04: So the Pirates are down 0-2 right away.
1:17:36
SPEAKER_04: Uh game three, Wakefield pitches a complete game, he beats Glavin.
1:17:40
SPEAKER_04: So Wakefield's Wakefield's stepping it up.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but Atlanta wins game four to take a three-to-one series lead.
1:17:47
SPEAKER_04: And honestly, at this point, it's like, okay, it's over.
1:17:50
SPEAKER_04: Three years in a row.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_04: We know, we know, we've seen this movie before, we know how it ends.
1:17:54
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but then everything kind of changes in game five.
1:17:57
SPEAKER_04: So Leland makes a really interesting decision in game five.
1:18:00
SPEAKER_04: He he trots out Bob Walk to start the game.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_04: Bob Walk, at this point in his career, he's been playing forever.
1:18:07
SPEAKER_04: He's in his late 30s.
1:18:08
SPEAKER_04: He's he actually played for Atlanta, I do believe.
1:18:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he probably did.
1:18:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:18:12
SPEAKER_04: Back probably when Hank Aaron was his teammate.
1:18:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:18:16
SPEAKER_04: I mean, he had been around for a long time.
1:18:18
SPEAKER_04: And he was he was in the bullpen at this point.
1:18:20
SPEAKER_04: Uh, he wasn't a starting pitcher anymore, but Leland takes a gamble, he sends Bob Locke out to start this game, and Locke pitches a great game.
1:18:29
SPEAKER_04: Uh and Bonds actually starts hitting.
1:18:32
SPEAKER_04: He has two hits in this game, one of which is an RBI double.
1:18:35
SPEAKER_04: So hang on to something.
1:18:36
SPEAKER_04: Barry Bonds is hitting the ball.
1:18:38
SPEAKER_04: Uh game six, so that so that keeps the Pirates alive for a game six.
1:18:42
SPEAKER_04: And game six is again Wakefield versus Glavin.
1:18:44
SPEAKER_04: And again, Wakefield goes the distance for a complete game victory.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_04: Glavin doesn't even make it out of the second inning.
1:18:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh that's an inning where the Pirates score eight runs and root to a 13-4 blowout.
1:18:57
SPEAKER_04: And in that inning, Bonds hits, wait for it, wait for it, a home run.
1:19:02
SPEAKER_04: Woo! The all-time home run leader, the greatest home run hitter in baseball history.
1:19:07
SPEAKER_04: Finally hits a home run.
1:19:08
SPEAKER_04: Finally hits a home run in a playoff game after three years.
1:19:11
SPEAKER_04: So that sets up a game seven in Atlanta with all the momentum completely shifted back to the Pirates.
1:19:17
SPEAKER_04: Like, oh my gosh, now the series is tied.
1:19:21
SPEAKER_04: Now, like, uh-oh, the the Pirates are hitting the ball.
1:19:25
SPEAKER_04: My goodness, this might actually happen.
1:19:29
SPEAKER_04: So that brings us to October 14th, 1992, to game seven.
1:19:34
SPEAKER_04: The matchup is Drabeck, who's lost both of his games in the series, versus Smoltz, who's won both of his games.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_04: The Pirates score in the top of the first.
1:19:43
SPEAKER_04: Uh, Alex Cole walks, Van Slyke doubles, and then Merced hits a sacrifice fly to um to get Cole home.
1:19:51
SPEAKER_04: The Pirates score again in the sixth inning, Van Syck singles home Bell.
1:19:55
SPEAKER_04: And then in the bottom of the sixth, the Braves really have a chance to blow the game open.
1:19:59
SPEAKER_04: They're down two to nothing at this point, but they lead off the inning with three straight singles.
1:20:05
SPEAKER_04: And in um and they have the bases loaded, nobody out with the two, three, four hitters do up.
1:20:12
SPEAKER_04: So, I mean, this could be a huge inning for Atlanta to just at the very least, you know, come back and tie the game, if not take a big lead.
1:20:20
SPEAKER_04: But Jeff Blauzer lines a ball to third base, and Jeff King catches it.
1:20:24
SPEAKER_04: It's like a hard line drive, and Jeff King catches it standing close to third base and is able to step on third base to double up Mark Lemke, who had been on third base.
1:20:34
SPEAKER_04: And then Pendletons up next and he lines out the left field, and that's it.
1:20:38
SPEAKER_04: The inning's over.
1:20:39
SPEAKER_04: So they had nobody out, bases loaded, with their best hitters coming up, and the Pirates get out of it.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_04: And other than that, little scare, Dravic is on fire.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_04: He's not allowing anything.
1:20:49
SPEAKER_04: Uh in the eighth inning, uh, the Pirates have a chance to add to their lead.
1:20:54
SPEAKER_04: Uh Jeff King hits a double.
1:20:56
SPEAKER_04: Um, and Merced, I believe, was on first at the time.
1:20:59
SPEAKER_04: He tries to go home, but David Justice makes a really good throw and nails Merced at home plate.
1:21:05
SPEAKER_04: That ends up being a big play because if the Pirates could have gotten a third run there, uh obviously, as we know, what happened from what happened later, that would have been huge.
1:21:13
SPEAKER_04: Uh something else very significant happens in the middle of this game.
1:21:17
SPEAKER_04: So the home plate umpire in this game is a guy named John McSherry.
1:21:22
SPEAKER_04: And John McSherry in the middle of the game starts feeling very nauseous and dizzy, and he has to take himself out of the game.
1:21:29
SPEAKER_04: And and he's replaced by the first base umpire because who else is going to replace him?
1:21:33
SPEAKER_04: So they have to the first base umpire has to move behind home plate, and the first base umpire is a guy named Randy Marsh, and Randy Marsh completely alters the strike zone.
1:21:43
SPEAKER_04: McCary had a much looser strike zone.
1:21:46
SPEAKER_04: Uh Marsh's strike zone was super tight.
1:21:49
SPEAKER_04: You had to have it like right down the middle of the square, or else it was a ball.
1:21:54
SPEAKER_04: Um it's it's it ends up really costing the pirates later.
1:21:58
SPEAKER_04: Um McCary was a very respected umpire, a very good umpire.
1:22:02
SPEAKER_04: He's also uh was a very large and unhealthy man.
1:22:06
SPEAKER_04: He very sadly and very tragically, um, a few years later, he's he's behind home plate in a game in Cincinnati, and he literally drops dead of cardiac arrest while calling it a game in Cincinnati.
1:22:19
SPEAKER_04: Um and so this was kind of like uh unfortunately a sign of things to come from McCary.
1:22:24
SPEAKER_04: He was not um in a good place health-wise.
1:22:28
SPEAKER_04: And in this game, that ends up being a uh a factor, him coming out.
1:22:33
SPEAKER_04: So the Pirates take a two to nothing lead into the bottom of the ninth inning.
1:22:37
SPEAKER_04: Here we go.
1:22:38
SPEAKER_04: And and man, it's it's like I I remember Steve.
1:22:42
SPEAKER_04: I remember the commercial break between the the top of the ninth and bottom of the ninth.
1:22:46
SPEAKER_01: I remember the last three just seemed like they took forever.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I just remember sitting there like, okay, you know, this is like three years of being probably the best team in baseball, and now we're three outs away from the World Series.
1:22:59
SPEAKER_04: Like, come on, no drama, just get just get three fly balls, make this really easy.
1:23:04
SPEAKER_04: Um Draybick is left in the game to to to finish it.
1:23:10
SPEAKER_04: Pendleton's up first, and he leads off the inning with a double.
1:23:13
SPEAKER_04: So right away it's like, oh no, oh no, a double.
1:23:16
SPEAKER_01: And with no outs, yeah.
1:23:18
SPEAKER_01: Whenever you give up a hit with no outs, that's always a bad sign.
1:23:22
SPEAKER_04: It was.
1:23:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:23:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh uh David Justice is up next.
1:23:26
SPEAKER_04: He hits a ground ball at a second base to lean, who misplays the ball for an error, and so now he's on base.
1:23:33
SPEAKER_04: This play, I mean, you want to talk about it.
1:23:35
SPEAKER_01: This is one of those, yeah, infamous.
1:23:37
SPEAKER_04: Well, sports irony, right?
1:23:39
SPEAKER_01: If you just want to talk about like sports irony, I mean so so This is probably the equivalent of the Bill Buckner of Trevor Burrus, Jr.
1:23:45
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I I think I think it's more the equivalent of like Gary Anderson missing the field goal after he after he had made every field goal the whole season.
1:23:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_04: Because because Jose Lean didn't make errors.
1:23:55
SPEAKER_04: Like Bill Buckner was old and broken down at that point.
1:23:58
SPEAKER_04: Like Jose Lean, so so just to just to explain how good Jose Lean was at second base.
1:24:04
SPEAKER_04: So during this era, the the best second baseman in the National League was a guy named Ryan Sandberg for the Cubs.
1:24:10
SPEAKER_04: Ryan Sandberg's in the Hall of Fame.
1:24:12
SPEAKER_04: Ryan Sandberg was a good hitter.
1:24:14
SPEAKER_04: He was also an excellent fielder.
1:24:16
SPEAKER_04: Ryan Sandberg won the gold glove at second base for the National League nine years in a row.
1:24:21
SPEAKER_04: Like that was automatic.
1:24:23
SPEAKER_04: Who wins gold glove?
1:24:24
SPEAKER_04: Oh, it's Ryan Sandberg.
1:24:25
SPEAKER_04: Ryan Sandberg.
1:24:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:24:26
SPEAKER_04: Every year it's Ryan Sandberg.
1:24:28
SPEAKER_04: Well, guess who breaks that streak in 1992?
1:24:31
SPEAKER_01: Juan Chico Leen.
1:24:33
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
1:24:34
SPEAKER_04: Like that was the year that they finally said, you know what, there's finally a better second baseman than Ryan Sandberg.
1:24:41
SPEAKER_04: And it was Jose Lean.
1:24:42
SPEAKER_04: And he makes an error.
1:24:43
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't a hard play, too.
1:24:45
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty routine.
1:24:47
SPEAKER_01: Even by like bad second baseman standards.
1:24:51
SPEAKER_04: 99, not even 99 times out of 100.
1:24:53
SPEAKER_04: 999 times out of a thousand.
1:24:56
SPEAKER_04: Lean makes that play with no problem.
1:24:59
SPEAKER_04: And in the bottom of the ninth inning of game seven, he he boots it.
1:25:03
SPEAKER_04: That was just a little bit.
1:25:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not only they give up a double out with nobody out, they gave up an extra out, too.
1:25:09
SPEAKER_01: So now they got to get four outs instead of three.
1:25:11
SPEAKER_01: Yep, basically.
1:25:13
SPEAKER_04: The next guy up is Sid Bream, and who Draybek is very good friends with.
1:25:18
SPEAKER_04: He walks him on four pitches.
1:25:20
SPEAKER_04: So uh now the bases are loaded, there's still nobody out.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_04: Uh Ron Gant is due up next.
1:25:26
SPEAKER_04: He's a very dangerous hitter.
1:25:28
SPEAKER_04: And Leland decides to take Draybick out of the game, and he sends in Stan Belinda.
1:25:34
SPEAKER_04: And this is a decision that's met with a lot of controversy because a lot of people felt like that he should have put in Wakefield in that in that moment.
1:25:43
SPEAKER_04: Um Wakefield, of course, had won, had beaten Atlanta twice already.
1:25:47
SPEAKER_04: He was the the on fire, he was the hot hand.
1:25:50
SPEAKER_01: And it was probably like so game six was in Pittsburgh, right?
1:25:54
SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah.
1:25:56
SPEAKER_04: I don't remember.
1:25:57
SPEAKER_04: But but I but to your point about There was probably a day in between.
1:26:02
SPEAKER_04: There was probably a day in between, but to your point about a knuckleball pitcher.
1:26:06
SPEAKER_01: He shouldn't, yeah, he shouldn't be tired.
1:26:08
SPEAKER_04: He shouldn't be t yeah, his arm's not going to be sore the way it would be for another pitcher.
1:26:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's only three out.
1:26:13
SPEAKER_01: It's only one inning.
1:26:14
SPEAKER_04: Well, and and didn't the Giants do this with Madison Baumgartner one year when they won the World Series?
1:26:18
SPEAKER_04: Like they had him pitch on like one day.
1:26:20
SPEAKER_04: Like they had a well that was later, yeah.
1:26:22
SPEAKER_04: But they had him close out game seven after he had pitched game six.
1:26:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:26:26
SPEAKER_04: And he wasn't even a knuckle ball pitcher.
1:26:27
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, the point being, Wakefield could have come in.
1:26:30
SPEAKER_04: Like that wasn't that wasn't the problem.
1:26:32
SPEAKER_04: I think it was more just that for Leland, Belinda was his closer, the ride the horse that brought you there.
1:26:39
SPEAKER_04: And and also maybe he didn't want to put a rookie in.
1:26:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Wakefield was a rookie.
1:26:44
SPEAKER_04: I mean, he was on fire, but he's he's maybe you don't want to put a rookie in in the bottom of the ninth of game seven with the bases loaded.
1:26:49
SPEAKER_04: So Ron Gantt's up.
1:26:51
SPEAKER_04: He hits a sacrifice fly that goes kind of dangerously deep.
1:26:54
SPEAKER_04: Like he I remember when he first hit that, I thought it was a grand slam and the game was over.
1:26:59
SPEAKER_04: Um but it ends up being a sacrifice fly that scores Pendleton to make it two to one.
1:27:04
SPEAKER_04: Uh so now there's one out, two guys on.
1:27:06
SPEAKER_04: Damon Berry Hill is up next, and this at bat is real controversial because there are two pitches that like are for sure strikes if McCarry is still in the game at Umpire.
1:27:19
SPEAKER_04: But um because Marsh is now behind home plate, they're both called balls, and Damon Berry Hill walks.
1:27:25
SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's where the the umpire change really hurt the pirates because Berry Hill should have struck out and that would have been two outs.
1:27:32
SPEAKER_04: And that would have been two outs, and instead um he's on first base.
1:27:36
SPEAKER_04: Now the bases are loaded again with one out.
1:27:39
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and that brings up Brian Hunter, and all he has to do is hit another sacrifice fly in the game's tied, or a fielder's choice or something, right?
1:27:48
SPEAKER_04: But um to Belinda's credit, he gets Hunter to pop up.
1:27:51
SPEAKER_04: So Hunter pops up, which means nobody can advance.
1:27:54
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:27:55
SPEAKER_04: So now there's two outs.
1:27:56
SPEAKER_01: See, that's what you need out of the bullet.
1:27:58
SPEAKER_01: You always need a pop up guy.
1:27:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh Yes.
1:28:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:28:03
SPEAKER_04: So now the Pirates catch a break there.
1:28:05
SPEAKER_04: So now now it really comes down to one final at bat.
1:28:08
SPEAKER_04: You know, the Pirates are still up two to one, but now there's two outs, the bases are still loaded.
1:28:13
SPEAKER_04: So now it's down to um to this one last at bat.
1:28:16
SPEAKER_04: And it's the pitcher's turn to bat in the order.
1:28:19
SPEAKER_04: So Cox wants to send in a pitch hitter.
1:28:21
SPEAKER_04: There's only one guy, there's only one position player left on the bench, and it's a guy named Francisco Cabrera.
1:28:29
SPEAKER_04: Cabrera is like the definition of a no-name scrub player.
1:28:33
SPEAKER_04: He only has 11 plate appearances all season, and he's only on the roster because Greg Olsen, their other catcher, had been injured on a home plate collision a few weeks before the playoffs.
1:28:44
SPEAKER_04: So that's the only reason Cabrera's even on the roster.
1:28:47
SPEAKER_04: Meanwhile, Bream is standing on second base representing the winning run.
1:28:51
SPEAKER_04: And he says later on that he cannot understand why he is why he is standing on second base.
1:28:58
SPEAKER_04: He says, you know, he says he was just such a slow runner at the time.
1:29:02
SPEAKER_04: He had had six knee operations.
1:29:04
SPEAKER_04: And he is totally perplexed as to why Cox hasn't taken him out of the game for a pinch runner.
1:29:12
SPEAKER_04: And he he knows like Cox didn't have any position players left, but he honestly thinks in his head, put Tom Glavin out there, right?
1:29:19
SPEAKER_04: Like put a pitcher out there.
1:29:20
SPEAKER_04: That pitcher would run better than me.
1:29:22
SPEAKER_04: Jeez.
1:29:24
SPEAKER_04: That's what Bream's thinking.
1:29:25
SPEAKER_04: But Cox also realizes like the game could go into extra innings.
1:29:28
SPEAKER_04: He can't, you know, he can't necessarily do that.
1:29:31
SPEAKER_04: He's out of players.
1:29:32
SPEAKER_04: So he leaves Bream on second base.
1:29:34
SPEAKER_04: Bream takes actually a really huge lead off of second.
1:29:38
SPEAKER_04: He says, like, if if um the Pirates would have noticed and called a pick off, he would have been picked off easily.
1:29:45
SPEAKER_04: But you know, either the Pirates don't notice or maybe they just don't want to call a pick off to second base.
1:29:50
SPEAKER_04: Just throw it into center field and then the yeah.
1:29:52
SPEAKER_04: Right.
1:29:53
SPEAKER_04: So um Bream.
1:29:54
SPEAKER_01: Or like they get they even if they catch like Bream in a rundown, then you know the runner from third's definitely gonna come home no matter what.
1:30:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:30:02
SPEAKER_04: I mean it it probably wouldn't have been the smartest thing to try to pick him off, but he he could have been picked off.
1:30:07
SPEAKER_04: So Cabrera's up at the plate, he the first two pitches are balls, and then the third pitch, he lines a foul ball real hard to left field.
1:30:16
SPEAKER_04: And at this point, Van Slick theorizes that if Cabrera makes contact again, he's gonna pull the ball somewhere left of center.
1:30:23
SPEAKER_04: He's not gonna he's not gonna hit it opposite field.
1:30:25
SPEAKER_04: The way he's swinging the bat, he thinks he's gonna pull the ball.
1:30:28
SPEAKER_04: So Van Slyke moves in so that if it's a if the ball comes to him, that he'll have a chance to to throw out Breeman home plate.
1:30:35
SPEAKER_04: And he motions to Bonds to do the same thing over in left field, and Bonds responds by giving him the finger.
1:30:42
SPEAKER_04: Um Wow, I didn't know that.
1:30:46
SPEAKER_01: Is that a true wow?
1:30:47
SPEAKER_04: Well, that's that's a Barry Bonds.
1:30:49
SPEAKER_04: That's Van Slyke's side of the story.
1:30:51
SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure we've ever heard Bonds' side of the story or heard him refute that, but I mean, it's Barry Bonds.
1:30:57
SPEAKER_04: Do you do you not believe it?
1:30:59
SPEAKER_04: Um you know, Bonds and Van Sleyke are um there's a lot of bad blood there.
1:31:05
SPEAKER_04: Um Bonds had once referred to Van Slyke as the Great White Hope.
1:31:08
SPEAKER_04: Uh Rich Donnelly, the Pirates coach, said that, quote, those two never spoke to one another except for when Andy said, I got it when there was a fly ball.
1:31:17
SPEAKER_04: He said that was literally the only time they ever spoke to each other.
1:31:20
SPEAKER_04: So Bonds isn't about to take uh fielding advice from Van Slyke.
1:31:25
SPEAKER_04: On the next pitch, uh Cabrero makes contact again, and this time he lines a grounder to left field.
1:31:32
SPEAKER_04: He gets a base hit.
1:31:33
SPEAKER_04: Justice scores the tying run.
1:31:36
SPEAKER_04: And Bream is running from second base.
1:31:40
SPEAKER_04: The the third base coach for the Braves uh holds up the stop sign for Bream.
1:31:44
SPEAKER_04: He does not want him trying to score because the ball's rolling to Barry Bonds, who's a very good fielder, and he knows Bream's super slow.
1:31:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but Bream doesn't even see him.
1:31:53
SPEAKER_04: He just he's like for said Bream, it's home plate or bust.
1:31:57
SPEAKER_04: So he just keeps running.
1:31:59
SPEAKER_04: Um he he um uh bonds fields the ball and he makes uh you know there's a lot said about the throw that bonds makes to home plate.
1:32:08
SPEAKER_04: A lot of people blame Barry Bonds for this.
1:32:10
SPEAKER_04: And it's not the best throw.
1:32:12
SPEAKER_04: It is definitely offline, but but only slightly.
1:32:15
SPEAKER_04: It wasn't like a terrible throw.
1:32:17
SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, if it would have been online, it would have had to have been a perfect throw.
1:32:21
SPEAKER_04: It would have had to have been a perfect throw.
1:32:22
SPEAKER_04: I mean, Bream is, you know, I think people remember that Bream was slow, and he was.
1:32:28
SPEAKER_04: He was horribly slow.
1:32:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, he had that big lead and the ball didn't wasn't like that sharply hit.
1:32:34
SPEAKER_04: And there were two outs.
1:32:35
SPEAKER_04: So with two outs, as soon as as soon as crack is hit sound, you're just taken off.
1:32:40
SPEAKER_04: You know, if there was one out and you had to wait to see if it was, you know, a catch or whatever, you wouldn't have had that.
1:32:45
SPEAKER_04: But there was two outs, so he can run with that big lead right away.
1:32:49
SPEAKER_04: Bonds makes a throw that's slightly offline, um, slightly to LaValier's right.
1:32:54
SPEAKER_04: Lavalier catches it, tries to dive at Bream.
1:32:56
SPEAKER_04: It's a split second too late.
1:32:58
SPEAKER_04: Lavalier always said if he was six inches taller, Bream is out.
1:33:01
SPEAKER_04: But Lavalier was just kind of pudgy in short and he can't reach.
1:33:05
SPEAKER_04: And Bream's safe and the game's over and the Braves win.
1:33:11
SPEAKER_04: The Braves win.
1:33:13
SPEAKER_04: Uh the the the lasting image of that game that I'll always remember is um, you know, everybody's going crazy and Atlanta's all mobbing Bream at home plate.
1:33:23
SPEAKER_04: I remember Van Slick sitting in center field, his hat's kind of disheveled.
1:33:26
SPEAKER_04: He's just sitting down in center field with this like blank look on his face.
1:33:31
SPEAKER_04: And he knows that's the end of the Pirates, not only for that season, but that's the end of them being a competitive team.
1:33:37
SPEAKER_04: And I I kind of feel like I was sitting in the same position on my family room floor.
1:33:42
SPEAKER_04: Just was sitting there staring at the end.
1:33:43
SPEAKER_01: I remember that.
1:33:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, him kind of, yeah.
1:33:45
SPEAKER_01: He was kind of like, he wasn't on his knee, but he just kind of had his head down and yeah, sitting in center field.
1:33:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:33:51
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
1:33:52
SPEAKER_04: Um, Cabrera is the only hitter in postseason history.
1:33:55
SPEAKER_04: This is a weird stat, to win a series with a hit and an at-bat during which an out would have resulted in a lot in a series loss.
1:34:03
SPEAKER_04: So this has never happened in baseball before, where you had an at-bat where if you get a hit, your team wins.
1:34:08
SPEAKER_04: If you get an out, your team loses.
1:34:10
SPEAKER_04: Like for the season.
1:34:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:34:12
SPEAKER_04: Uh like like literally an at-bat to decide one of those two teams.
1:34:16
SPEAKER_01: The game was tied in the 60 World Series.
1:34:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:34:19
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know what the score of the Joe Carter.
1:34:21
SPEAKER_04: Well, that was game six.
1:34:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
1:34:23
SPEAKER_04: So that wasn't elimination.
1:34:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:34:25
SPEAKER_04: So this is the only time where literally one team's one team season is going to end depending on a hit or an out.
1:34:31
SPEAKER_04: So that's a unique moment in baseball history.
1:34:33
SPEAKER_04: Think about all the all the you know, the history of baseball.
1:34:37
SPEAKER_04: That's that's the only time that's ever happened.
1:34:39
SPEAKER_04: Um the the other thing looking back on this inning, the Braves only got two hits in that entire inning.
1:34:46
SPEAKER_04: The leadoff double and then the Cabrera hit.
1:34:49
SPEAKER_04: And the rest were walks in the air.
1:34:51
SPEAKER_04: Like, it's just hard to believe looking back that they were down two to nothing and they won the game by getting only two hits.
1:34:57
SPEAKER_04: So that was painful.
1:34:59
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was just painful.
1:35:01
SPEAKER_04: Um the aftermath of this, it was really like a funeral.
1:35:05
SPEAKER_04: It really was.
1:35:05
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was devastating.
1:35:07
SPEAKER_04: People were so sad.
1:35:08
SPEAKER_04: I was devastated.
1:35:10
SPEAKER_04: Um, because you knew not only did the pirates lose after being so close, they were so close to finally winning um the pennant.
1:35:18
SPEAKER_04: And but then you knew like that this is probably gonna be the end of this, this run.
1:35:22
SPEAKER_04: Um, Rich Donnelly, the the pirates coach, told this story he had a a son who was like um like in that uh like maybe 19, 20 years old kind of age range.
1:35:33
SPEAKER_04: And he said his son cried so much that night that his eye got infected.
1:35:37
SPEAKER_04: And then when he went to the doctor the next day because his eye got infected, the the doctor and the nurses there were like, well, what happened?
1:35:44
SPEAKER_04: And he told them the story, and then they all started crying.
1:35:46
SPEAKER_04: So it just it was just like the whole town was in like mourning mode.
1:35:51
SPEAKER_04: Um, Bonds uh signs a huge deal with the San Francisco Giants, his father's team.
1:35:56
SPEAKER_04: Uh his last play ever as a pirate is the throw that did not get Bream.
1:36:00
SPEAKER_04: Draybick signs a huge huge deal with the Houston Astros.
1:36:04
SPEAKER_04: Jose Lane is traded, he um unfortunately develops a cocaine problem, ends up in prison.
1:36:11
SPEAKER_04: Uh Belinda is traded to the Kansas City Royals.
1:36:14
SPEAKER_04: Wakefield is named the opening day starter for 1993.
1:36:18
SPEAKER_04: He quickly flames out and is sent back to the miners and is eventually released.
1:36:22
SPEAKER_04: And then is ultimately picked up by the Boston Red Sox, where he becomes one of the greatest pitchers in the history of that franchise.
1:36:28
SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, we talked about that in our 20 Years of Suck episode: how the Pirates just made a lot of bad moves after this.
1:36:35
SPEAKER_04: And giving up on Wakefield too early was definitely one of those moves.
1:36:40
SPEAKER_04: Uh Leland sticks around until uh 1997.
1:36:44
SPEAKER_04: That's when, like Jay Bell, Jeff King, sort of those last pieces, Van Syck's gone by then.
1:36:50
SPEAKER_04: Um, all those pieces are gone.
1:36:51
SPEAKER_04: Leland finally leaves, he wins the World Series with Florida.
1:36:55
SPEAKER_04: The Pirates go on to set a North American professional sports record by compiling 20 consecutive losing seasons.
1:37:02
SPEAKER_04: Uh again, we did a whole episode about, you know, that that that run of 20 pathetic years and all the all the terrible moments and moves that they made to just keep extending that streak.
1:37:14
SPEAKER_04: Uh and and I think that, you know, the the the sid slid, as they as they call it in Atlanta, I think it's the worst moment in Pittsburgh sports history because it literally destroys an entire franchise.
1:37:27
SPEAKER_04: I mean whatever other terrible moment you want to bring up, you know, the the the penguins losing on to the Islanders or the um Neil O'Donnell interception, it didn't like ruin the franchise for decades.
1:37:40
SPEAKER_04: And and this one did.
1:37:42
SPEAKER_04: So to me, it's it's the single worst moment in Pittsburgh sports history.
1:37:46
SPEAKER_04: I think it's honestly because of the impact, because of the three years leading up to it, and then what it did afterwards, I I think it's probably like in the top three worst sports moments of all time, uh, in terms of fan devastation.
1:38:01
SPEAKER_04: And for me, it was just it was it was you know, I I talked about how I loved baseball then, and I kind of felt like uh like that was the end of all that, and it was for me.
1:38:12
SPEAKER_04: I just I was m much more apathetic to to baseball after this.
1:38:16
SPEAKER_04: Like that love, that romanticism, the baseball cards, and the the staying up late to bot watch baseball tonight, that was all gone.
1:38:24
SPEAKER_04: I I was a teenager and then for me like baseball was like a kid thing.
1:38:30
SPEAKER_04: I just didn't love it anymore, and that didn't happen to me with any other sport.
1:38:33
SPEAKER_04: And I really feel like that this moment was the turning point for me as a fan.
1:38:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I'm trying to think of like other teams that have gone, like the Browns, maybe are the closest thing I could think of.
1:38:48
SPEAKER_01: Like because I like we said the the Pirates have five World Series, right?
1:38:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, five.
1:38:55
SPEAKER_01: That that's sixth most all time.
1:38:57
SPEAKER_01: And really during the ownership of the Galbraiths, you know, they were a very successful team.
1:39:04
SPEAKER_01: In the 70s they were very successful, the 60 they won a World Series, even in the 60s they were still competitive.
1:39:10
SPEAKER_01: And after this, boy, it it it's really gone downhill.
1:39:13
SPEAKER_01: Like that's the only thing I can compare.
1:39:15
SPEAKER_01: Like the Browns like have all those championships with you know Paul Brown and even up to when Belichick was there in the 90s, and as soon as you know Art Model moved the team to Baltimore, boy, boy, it's been nothing since they came back.
1:39:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they've had one playoff game and they there was a blowout to your arrival.
1:39:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, a big comeback loss to your arrival.
1:39:36
SPEAKER_01: So I mean that's the only thing, and like now the Pirates, I mean, they're going on 40 years now without winning a World Series, and I think that's the longest stretch they've gone in the team history without winning a World Series.
1:39:48
SPEAKER_01: And uh, I mean, even now, I did look up I looked up uh the other people that have had longer streaks, like just other teams in general.
1:39:57
SPEAKER_01: Let's see, it was uh I know of course the Red Sox, everybody.
1:40:01
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you have it's at the bottom of that.
1:40:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hold on.
1:40:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Red Sox are 85 years.
1:40:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, the Red Sox were 85 years.
1:40:08
SPEAKER_01: The longest was the Cubs at 107 years, the White Sox at 87, the Phillies at 77.
1:40:16
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, there's still some time.
1:40:18
SPEAKER_04: The Pirates got some time there to get it together before they catch some of these other teams records, but Yeah, I I mean, unless they have some kind of change in ownership, I think they'll be well on their way to 80, 90, 100 years at this point.
1:40:34
SPEAKER_04: And and it's just sad because this was their chance, this was their big chance, and they just they were so close.
1:40:40
SPEAKER_04: And you mentioned that like the Browns had like the move, but like to have that to have like a moment, like a a moment, uh a sports moment, like be the absolute turning point.
1:40:51
SPEAKER_04: I it just it's so devastating to watch even to this day.
1:40:54
SPEAKER_01: And I even remember uh the day after, like like the news would show like I don't know why they were down at the stadium showing the pirates like pack up and leave and like Bob Walk like he had like they gave out those little foam hooks, you know.
1:41:06
SPEAKER_01: Like it was just so sad, like you said, just like them packing up and everybody was so sad and everybody knew that Bonds was gone and that was probably gonna be the end of them being competitive without you know it just it it it was I can't think of a more devastating Pittsburgh sports moment off the top of my head, quite honestly.
1:41:27
SPEAKER_01: I I I I really can't.
1:41:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, besides Clemeny dying in the plane crash.
1:41:33
SPEAKER_04: Well, sure, sure.
1:41:34
SPEAKER_01: But I mean on the field, I mean but even the Pirates won a World Series after that, you know, and were competitive after that.
1:41:41
SPEAKER_04: So Yeah, it it it was it's just awful.
1:41:45
SPEAKER_04: Um and and it's sad because again, this was this was a really fun time for Pittsburgh baseball.
1:41:51
SPEAKER_04: And I and I almost even if they would have lost that you know, they were down three games to one.
1:41:55
SPEAKER_04: Had they had Bob Walk stunk in game five and they had just lost it.
1:41:58
SPEAKER_01: It probably wouldn't have been as yeah, it would be more forgettable.
1:42:00
SPEAKER_01: But well, those teams never really achieved.
1:42:03
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:42:03
SPEAKER_04: And it still would have been you know disappointing to look back on, but just like just that knife in the gut way to lose that that game in that series.
1:42:11
SPEAKER_01: Francesco, I mean Francesco Cavera.
1:42:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that'll live in infamy.
1:42:15
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
1:42:16
SPEAKER_01: And there's Sid Bream, too, like you said, like he still lives in western Pennsylvania.
1:42:21
SPEAKER_04: Well, and and if you want to take one bright spot out of this whole disaster, it's it's that Sid Bream gets to relive this moment for the rest of his life.
1:42:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, never have to pay for a meal in Atlanta, that's for sure.
1:42:33
SPEAKER_04: And every 10-year retrospective and 15-year retrospective and 20-year retrospective that Bob Costas hosts, you know, he he's the guy that gets to to sit there and be interviewed.
1:42:43
SPEAKER_04: You know, he he's he's because honestly, I mean, not a lot of people would remember Sid Bream to this day if it weren't for this moment.
1:42:52
SPEAKER_04: So good good on him, good for him, a guy that got totally um screwed over by the pirates, you know, got to to at least have something that he could live off of for the rest of his life.
1:43:02
SPEAKER_04: So if you want to take one bright spot out of this, is that you know he was a good guy and and good for him.
1:43:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, but from the Pittsburgh side, man, it just hurts.
1:43:11
SPEAKER_01: Like it's besides a whole generation of fans lost baseball because of this play.
1:43:16
SPEAKER_01: It's har it's hard to you know what I mean.
1:43:18
SPEAKER_04: That's very that's that's very true.
1:43:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean they lost a whole generation of fans.
1:43:24
SPEAKER_04: Yep, on one play.
1:43:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:43:25
SPEAKER_04: On one hit.
1:43:28
SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah.
1:43:31
SPEAKER_04: You're not sufficiently depressed.
1:43:33
SPEAKER_01: Um next we'll be talking about war and disease.
1:43:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:43:39
SPEAKER_04: Uh thank you everybody for listening.
1:43:41
SPEAKER_04: Um please check us out on the web, Facebook, or Twitter.
1:43:45
SPEAKER_04: Those links are all in the description of our podcast.
1:43:49
SPEAKER_04: And uh please go rate us on whatever service you're listening to.
1:43:53
SPEAKER_04: If you like what you hear, that helps other people find us.
1:43:55
SPEAKER_04: Thanks everybody.
1:43:56
SPEAKER_04: We'll catch you next time.
1:43:57
SPEAKER_04: All right, bye-bye.
1:43:59
SPEAKER_03: Remember the heartbreaks.
1:44:03
SPEAKER_03: Remember the tears.
1:44:06
SPEAKER_03: getting it all together takes so many years.
1:44:12
SPEAKER_03: Remember the close one.
1:44:14
SPEAKER_03: ones, and there were a few.
1:44:19
SPEAKER_03: You never gave up trying, wanting to come through.
1:44:26
SPEAKER_03: Well, this is your moment.
1:44:30
unknown: You learn how to lie.
1:44:33
SPEAKER_03: We're in the black long row of once won't then kiss it.
1:44:36
SPEAKER_03: Kiss it goodbye.
1:44:39
SPEAKER_03: You gotta believe it's your turn.
1:44:42
SPEAKER_03: You gotta believe, you gotta believe it's true.
1:44:46
unknown: It's birth, we really.
1:45:12
SPEAKER_03: Su fly ball into left center field van Slight coming over.
1:45:14
SPEAKER_03: Damn it, catch by Andy.
1:45:18
SPEAKER_03: Well, this is your moment.
1:45:21
SPEAKER_03: You learn how to fly.
1:45:24
SPEAKER_03: We'll remember that long road once long.
1:45:27
SPEAKER_03: Then kiss it.
1:45:28
SPEAKER_03: Kiss it goodbye.
1:45:31
SPEAKER_03: You gotta believe it's your turn.
1:45:33
SPEAKER_03: You gotta believe it's true.
1:45:37
unknown: If it's birth, we believe.
1:45:58
SPEAKER_03: It's your turn.
1:46:00
SPEAKER_03: You can already see if it's true that we believe and we