Latest / STOPTIME: Live in the Moment. / Bob Martin: Humor, Heart, and Creative Connection

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Bob Martin: Humor, Heart, and Creative Connection · STOPTIME: Live in the Moment.

• 0:24
  Speaker 1: This is the Stop Time Podcast.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, lisa Hopkins, and I'm here to engage you in thought-provoking, motivational conversations around practicing the art of living in the moment.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a certified life coach and I'm excited to dig deep and offer insights into embracing who we are and where we are at.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: So my next guest has been working as a writer, performer and producer in television, film and theater in Canada and the US for more than three decades.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: He is the co-creator of the Tony Award-winning the Drowsy Chaperone, which is widely considered to be the most successful show in Canadian musical history.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: He served as co-writer on Elf, which has enjoyed similar success on Broadway and internationally, and co-wrote the Prom, which opened on Broadway in November 2018 to high critical acclaim, including being named a New York Times Critics' Pick, and was later adapted into a Netflix film with an all-star cast produced by Ryan Murphy.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: He has been recognized internationally with award wins and nominations for his acting, his producing, his writing work, including multiple Tony Awards, a Drama Desk Award and multiple Gemini Awards.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: He is co-creator of Slings and Arrows, which was named one of the 10 best television shows of the decade by a number of publications, including the New York Magazine.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: But you know what Today?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: He's not writing, he's not producing, he's not directing, he's just having a conversation with me.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: He's slowing down for a minute.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: This is his permission.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I am so looking forward to introducing you all to Bob Martin.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Bob, welcome.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you, isn't it strange to listen to your bio, because it's just this list of things.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Each one of them, you know, probably took 10 years of my life and it's and so on the one level it's it's really unsatisfying to hear.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: It's like well, I must, I should have accomplished more by now.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: And on the other hand, it's certain things stick out.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh yeah, that was nice when that happened, but it's strange.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I never like writing bios and it's one of those things.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: It's not a real representation of who you are, I don't think.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Anyway, there you go, agreed.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: No, completely agreed.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: And it's funny because the only reason I really do it is A to get the reaction of the person, which is always so fun, right, because you don't usually listen to it while someone's reading it.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, the uncomfortability piece is real, but it's also revealing in a way, isn't it About what you think?
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Like I've already learned some stuff about you.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: I completely get what you're saying.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: You know how can your resume capture who you are?
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: It's a very small sliver of who you are, which is why we're here, right, which is why I'd like to chat with you about you know, talk to me like, take me back.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Where did this all begin?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: And when I say this, it doesn't I don't necessarily mean all of that, I just mean today.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: What brought you here today talking to me?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Can we go back?
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I know you're from Canada, we were discussing, yeah, so go back as far as you like, and I mean you're.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: You're a storyteller, right.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm, yeah, right, that's right.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm, um, I was actually born in England and raised in Canada, so I came to Canada in the mid sixties when I was very young.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I come from a big family.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: I was the youngest of six, um, and we didn't have a lot of money.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: We lived in a very small house where eight of us in a two bedroom house at one point and, uh, being the youngest of six, I sort of had both experiences being part of a large family but also being kind of like an only child, because most of my siblings moved away when I was still young.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: So, and you know where did you fall in that, in that six?
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Where were you?
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was the youngest of six.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, you were the very youngest.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh yeah, and I was born later.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: I was some kind of you know miraculous mistake or something.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: So, uh, I was, yeah, so I was younger, um, and also my, my, my family because they were older and spent more time in England, they identified much more as British than I did, so they had this kind of shared history that I didn't really have and I but I but I kind of thought of myself as both British and Canadian growing up.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: And now here I am in the United States and, you know, kind of still struggling with that cultural identity.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, even this conversation beginning with, oh, my bio, I'm a little embarrassed by that.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: That's a very Canadian quality, right?
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, don't you agree?
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: There's that sort of for American listeners.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: There's something called the tall poppy syndrome, where it's just considered impolite or uncouth to talk about your success or to celebrate success in our country.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: It's a huge problem actually for Canada.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I wish we didn't have that attitude, but that is something that we have and it's kind of gotten in my brain.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's my.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I was British, raised in Canada and now live and work in the United States.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: What kinds of things did you like to do when you were a kid?
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Like did you you?
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: You know how did you get drawn to this sort of kind of work that you do?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: I've always liked, uh, comedy, I've always liked writing and, uh, I was an actor, a child actor basically and that all happened because I was agonizingly shy and uh, my, my mother enrolled me in acting classes in toronto and that's sort of you know discovering, like so many people, discovering a community of actors, and, um, that kind of brought me out of my shell and I, and, uh, I enjoyed getting a reaction from an audience, I enjoyed improvising especially, and, um, that kind of led to a life as both an actor and a writer.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Both things have always been side by side in my experience that's interesting.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: So many things come up for me when I when I was kind of researching you a little bit too.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I'm curious to know and maybe this changes or or not, I don't know but I'm curious to know how do you identify, like, because you do a lot of things right, I mean, and as artists we do, but you do a lot of things right, I mean, and as artists we do, but you do a lot of things.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: You're well-known for a lot of things, you know I, you know I mean you've starred in a Broadway show.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I mean I'll be.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: I know it was your first one and I know that you, you know you would apologize for it and all of it's unusual because I don't think of myself like I was nominated for Tony for Best Performance in Musical and I didn't really sing in it.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: So I always felt a bit like you know, a slight imposter Sure.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's something to talk about, actually imposter syndrome, which is something.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I've sort of been fascinated with all my life, my life.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I think it's an entirely positive quality or thing to experience anyway, because it means that you're attempting to do something that you're not entirely comfortable with or not familiar with.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: For me, that's what it is.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I often feel like I'm faking it or that I'm not part of that group of people who I'm working with.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I often feel that, um, that may also be a Canadian thing, because we're we're very much people who who stand outside and observe a little bit and observe and comment, which I think is why Canadians are such good satirists.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Um, but, but uh, but that's something that's always been part of my um experience is this sort of like feeling a bit like an alien and a bit like an outsider and a bit like.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: I'm.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: So how do I identify?
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, essentially I'm a writer and and I although, as I say, I'm a writer that's very aware of what the performer requires.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: So I love working with actors directly in the room.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: That's why I prefer the theater over television and film, because we can be in a lab, we can be rehearsing, I can be changing the dialogue, working with the actor, tailoring the part to that person in real time, and I feel sometimes like a performer, as an extension of me as a performer.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's what I always say about Beth level, who's, who happens to have started my three Broadway shows, because she's she can do things I could never do and she's a woman and she has that perspective and so I love, you know, writing for her and allowing her to just do things I can't do, and it feels like an extension of myself as a performer.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: But ultimately I feel most comfortable and least anxious, I guess, as a writer.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's super interesting.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: I have so much, so much there to unpack.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: I'd love I back, if it's okay with you, to talk about how the imposter syndrome, if I heard you correctly, works for you.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: As I say, I feel that it means that I'm moving forward in my creative life.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: It means that I'm challenging myself and putting myself in situations that are not exactly comfortable because they're new.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Exactly comfortable because they're new.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that that's, that's how I choose to interpret it.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Now, I mean, I, you know, I, as I say, I grew up in this weird way where I felt a little different from everyone in my family but at the same time, I did have a British accent and everything when I was a kid, and so I stood out at school as well.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: So I, I, I mean, I always felt like a bit of an outsider, even when I was a kid.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: And, as a matter of fact, my mother told me at one point that I stopped talking for a year.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't speak to anybody, which is kind of disturbing, and she never explained exactly why that happened.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: And it was when I was very, very young, the fact that I used to be very entertaining for the people in my neighborhood because I was, I had this thick British accent and I was this tiny child and they used to make me entertain them.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: And I guess I just at some point sort of took control and said, no, I'm not.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that anymore.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: That's super interesting.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Well, and it's true about what you're saying about the imposter syndrome as an indicator, which is kind of right, that you're in the right place, even though it might be uncomfortable, but that you're growing.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: That's an awareness, like in my work.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: You know, when you have an awareness of something like that, right, it's really a helpful thing as opposed to a trigger which kind of makes you retract.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Right, it's something that is an awareness that makes you go OK, it's scary but and helps you move forward.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean again, this is how I interpret that feeling Sure, and so it becomes a positive as opposed to a negative for me.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Um, and I, and I do like to challenge myself.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I always, I always liked the beginning of a project more than any other point, where you know you're really in a world that is not clearly defined, and and, uh, and and, especially if I'm working with new people, like that's another thing.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I think that is slightly unique about me in this community that I, I am known as a collaborator.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I, so I work with a large, you know, a diverse group of people.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Basically, I never I don't work with only the same team, although I do have my favorites, but I try to.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I like working with new people and figuring out that dynamic and and I, and you know, my whole approach to collaboration is that you collaborate with someone who has a different skillset than you have.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: It's, it's all about being with someone who does things that you can't do.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: So you again, you're expanding your palate, expanding your skillset.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Totally, yeah, totally.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: I'm rambling.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I do tend to ramble, by the way.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: You're not rambling at all.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: It's not remotely rambling, actually.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: It's rich with all sorts of contextual stuff.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: So one thing is how has your improv background helped in that realm?
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: It sounds like maybe it would help, but I'm curious, yeah.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I used to have a lot of anxiety about performing, even though I loved it.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I used to get extremely nervous about it and and, uh you know, sick to my stomach and everything before I went on.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Um, and much of that had to do with memorization, I think, as I was never very good at memorizing things.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: But then I started.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: I joined Second City in Toronto and I remember the first time I was sort of thrown on stage with nothing at all in front of an audience.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I felt completely relaxed and the sort of performance anxiety just disappeared and I realized that I could entertain a room of people without any script at all, and so that really helped me in my it helped teach me how to connect with an audience directly and it just removed a lot of psychological barriers when it came to performance.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: And it was also improv was an excellent tool in terms of writing, because I realized that everything I was interested in was character based, like character was the most important component in storytelling, basically.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: So when in improv I would always begin with a character and then create situations, that most illuminated that character, the traits that I wanted to illuminate, and it also made me understand really what a comic character is composed of really, which is, I mean, the thing that's interesting about comic characters is that they're not heroic, that they're really all about their fears and limitations.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: So going to that darker, unpleasant place and how those you know limitations of that character define how he navigates life, that was a very, very interesting exercise and really taught me really how to write in many ways Totally.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Well, and it's so interesting, the piece about, like you know you were cause some somebody might be telling me the total opposite they might go improv terrifies me because I don't know what I'm supposed to do, how I'm supposed to show up.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: And you're saying the opposite.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: You know, you're like suddenly I'm free and the only rule is that you have to get up there and do something, but there are no other rules, really Right.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: And when you, when you're first thrown up there, yeah, I I'm not sure why I felt so comfortable.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: I think it was my fear.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Maybe my fear was in just sort of conventional acting when you're going out there with a script in your mind, uh, is that you are being judged, right?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: You're, you are saying scripted lines and people in one way or another are judging your ability to communicate that information, or comparing your Hamlet to another Hamlet, or something like that.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: But when you're improvising, you are very purely connecting with the room, with each individual, and every night is different and every audience is different, and you have to be alive and connected, and so it's more about connection than it is about performance in a weird way.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what excited me about it.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: And and you're creating something that's never been created before.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Therefore, ergo, there could be no criticism, because there's no reference point.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Of course, it's an extremely high failure rate as well.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: This is not easy to do.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: And I don't really do it anymore.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I felt the sort of fear creep back and I, and so I you know I don't really improvise anymore I, I, I and I still enjoy it when I do, but it's a bit scarier.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: It's something you really have to exercise.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: It's a muscle you have to exercise.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: You have to not think.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Not thinking is a very hard thing to do.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Especially the more you know.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: It's just not.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: It's really it's the beginner's mindset, right, which is kind of what you were talking about with the you know kind of circles.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Back to what you're talking about with the imposter syndrome, right, you know, on the one hand, yes, it's your edge, but it's the beginner's mindset where you're going to learn so much more if you go in, not with all your baggage of what you think you know, but with what you can learn, and it's just, it's an opening as opposed to a sort of a limitation, literally, yeah, exactly.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Again, there's a rule in improv, which is that you try to make your your performing partner look better than you.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: So again, it's emphasizes that idea of connection and support.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and, and that's when, when, when second city started to get really sort of competitive for me and I found myself sort of doing more monologues than scenes, right, I thought it's time, it's time to go.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: It's not really, it's not really working for me anymore.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not having that what was really beautiful about it anymore um.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I bet it.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Anyway.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: It was an extremely positive experience for me and I was there for years.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: I was there, I was in the touring company, then I was on main stage and I was directing the touring company.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: That was directing on main stage and, very briefly, I was there, I was in the touring company, then I was on main stage and I was directing the touring company and I was directing on main stage and, very briefly, I was artistic director of Second City, toronto for like a year, a job I never should have ever done, but it was something I needed to do, yeah yeah, absolutely, that's so cool.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: And then the Drowsy Chaperone.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I know there's the story that it was an engagement thing, right, it was part of your.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: You guys created that little musical idea, right part of a group of comedians and actors and writers.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Right and we used to do fringe shows all the time and we used to create songs and musicals, little tiny shows, and so it was natural that when I got married, that a show would be performed for our stag party, and it turned out to be this fake 1920s musical called the Drowsy Chaperone.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: It was written by my friends for Janet and I, my wife at the time.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: My soon-to-be wife at the time, now my ex-wife.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: But so they performed this show at the Rivoli in Toronto.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: It's sort of an alternative theater and comedy space, music space, and it was a great show.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: It was about half an hour, a little more than half an hour, filled with these wonderful songs written by Lisa Lambert and Greg Morrison, and we sort of looked at it afterwards and said, well, we should build this into something more than what it is, let's make it into a show.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: It afterwards and said, well, we should build this into something more than what it is.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: We uh, let's make it into a show.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And, um, we ended up adding this frame of a character called man in chair that uh plays this obscure musical for the audience and walks them through it.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: And that was.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I played that character and we did it as a fringe show.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: And then it went on and on and just had a life that none of us expected it up on Broadway.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I was actually rereading the opening monologue this morning.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I was just struck once more by the man in chairs.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: You know the feeling.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: That feeling is the feeling blue and the and the self-conscious anxiety, right, and the non-specific sadness, like obviously, as a coach and a human behaviorist, like I'm like wow, like it's just so profound because here's somebody that's afraid to go out but he's so actually connected and aware of his anxiety and the uncomfortability about it and also has a tool that helps him, that he shares.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: So I mean, that's you, bob.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I can't just see the past 10 minutes.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I'm like that really reflects.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: I was so curious to know if that connected and now, talking to me, I can see that connection.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: The shy person, all the things.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Go, tell me what you think about that.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: No, it absolutely is very much me.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I am not that character in the sense that I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of musical theater, and I do go out and I do have, you know, relationships.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I'm in a wonderful relationship now.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Um, that there's, you know, I think, of drowsy, as, on one level, extremely entertaining, funny show.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: On another level it's an incredibly sad show.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: If you, if you really look at what's going on there, there's a man alone that can't go out.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: He's made terrible choices in his life, he can't connect with people and his only escape is into the, this world of obscure musicals that are flawed, that no one's ever heard of, and he shares them.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: But who is he sharing them with?
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: He's alone in the apartment.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: He's really talking to himself and he's just longing to be transported into this sort of romantic, idealized world.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: And you know, and he says that at the very beginning you just want to be transported, just take me away, you know.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And he says that at the very beginning you just want to be transported, just take me away, you know.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: And and he struggles to be transported throughout the show, until the very end when the musical sort of extends its hand to him and takes him sort of away for a blissful moment and then presumably he just does it again the next night with another, with another show.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: I actually find it.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: It's an extremely sad thing.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it is me.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I've always had this real problem with the idea of happiness.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I've written extensively about characters struggling to find some sort of happiness and to really define what that means.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I understand what contentment means.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Happiness is something I can't really comprehend.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Joy is something I understand because for me, with joy, there's pain as a component of joy.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Struggle and pain is a component of joy.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Struggle and pain is a component of joy.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: So the classic example of what brings people joy is having children.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: And I have a son and he does bring me joy, but man, he also makes me extremely scared of his safety and everything like that, and there's a lot of pain and we struggle to have a child and all of these things.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: So that I can understand the concept of joy and it's an lot of pain and we we struggle to have a child and all of these things, so that I can I can understand the concept of joy and it's a, it's an elusive thing and I've experienced it, but it's hard.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: But happiness, this idea of this positive state that you society insists you live in is something that I find really, really confusing.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: So I you know that if you need any help in understanding the character of manager if if anyone out there who would ever be performing him, I mean it is that it is that his, his, the, the frustration and and realization that he's never really been able to be happy, and why, you know, he doesn't quite understand that and I think, think the obscure, frothy musical presents this world in which everybody is happy and everyone, ultimately, will be happy.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: In the end, regardless of all the little obstacles along the way, they're going to end up in a happy place, and this is just something that he's never been able to achieve, and this is just something that he's never been able to achieve.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting because the way I read it, the way I, you know, interpreted it, is that you know, especially again, you know again, with the opening monologue being fresh in my head because I reread it this morning Is that you know when he talks about?
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Do you remember when it used to be like this, like he hearkens to a time?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: And now, as I say it out loud, it's not so much that he said he was happy.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he never lived.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: But when things were done differently, which, yeah, which kind of indicate that that he thought it was better, a better place?
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: He's talking about a time he never experienced and he's yeah it has as having been better but that's just another musical really right yeah, yeah and he's, he's really well and also he's he's talking about some extraordinary talents.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: You know that existed, go and.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: And it also says something about his inability to connect with the contemporary world.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: You know he doesn't like what he sees on Broadway now.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: He doesn't like who's writing now.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: So there is, you know, there are parts of me in that character, but I'm I'm not that miserable person.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: No, and I didn't mean that when I said that, but I do.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about it real time.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: No.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: When you said it's like, oh yeah, I am that person, then I started thinking about it.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Oh no, no, I'm.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: I'm higher functioning than he is but you tapped into that aspect of you and I mean, I really believe that we have all these aspects of ourselves, which is why the writing is so beautiful and what and why your performance was so impeccable.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: For that reason, because you could relate oh, yeah, well, thank you.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I, yes again.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: For me, a comic character is is really built on their limitations and fears.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Right, so it.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: And and I mind my own limitations and fears.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So this is a lot of me in that character, for sure, um, and I and I think you know when I say this about limitations and fears, I think it's something that an audience can identify with, which is what makes it comic.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: They feel the discomfort of seeing something that they recognize and it's funny.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: They laugh, and so you know, I think people relate to me.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I had people when I did the show on Broadway.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: I had people come to the stage door and say it's me, this, this character is me.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: People from Sweden, you know people other exotic parts of the world who have completely different experiences than I have identify see themselves represent on the stage and the character of man in Chair.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: It's really exciting to me.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, we could talk just about that.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: I, I just, I was, which we won't, but you know, maybe, maybe off camera, but I, I was, I'm just, I feel really connected.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I love that character and and I don't necessarily relate to him, but I would love to know him.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Like, I just find that I love him.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love him.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I just think he's wonderful.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: So let me ask you actually, first of all, just to respond to what you had said, because that's interesting that you are.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: You, you pull distinctions between joy, happiness and what was the third one.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: So, joy and contentment, yeah, and that you can recognize contentment and you can recognize joy, and a lot of it has to do with because that, because its opposite exists as well, right, so you can.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And and with happiness, it's funny, it's true, I mean, I call it, I, I think what you're, what you're alluding to is what I call toxic positivity.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, right, yeah, you mean the expectation to be positive?
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like, yeah, like a societal expectation, correct yeah?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Correct, positive isn't one thing right.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: So I believe in energy and that's what I do in my work and in the contextualization of energy, the different mixes of energy that we have.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: So Lisa in a good mood today is going to look very differently than Lisa in a good mood tomorrow, because there are other aspects Right.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: So there's no one way to be just as my 100% today is not going to be.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: You know, if this is my 100%, I'm giving you 100%.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: But if I wanted to get into comparison, and you know, to another interview or to something I do tomorrow, or I'm interviewing someone else tomorrow, I'm still going to give my 100% is going to look different, and I could easily let my own self come in and go yeah, well, that was nearly as good as the conversation you had with Bob, because dot, dot, dot and it'll provide all sorts of evidence.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: But that's not the issue.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: There is no issue.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: First of all, the fact is that I believe that we all and this isn't a positive thing I just believe this.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: I believe that we all and this isn't a positive thing, I just believe this.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I believe that we always do the very best we can and it just doesn't look the same.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I guess that's related to the mindfulness, right, I mean really being in the moment, right, because context is everything.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: You're going to be different day to day.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Exactly, and we're always looking for, I'll feel, when it'll be better, if and all that and go, what about stuck in with yourself right now?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: You know, and and now?
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: so no, no, but that's what I was thinking about when I, when I was thinking about talking to you, I, I was thinking, wow, the one thing I want to talk about more than anything is this the, the ability to stay in the present.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, I, I I'm telling, I'm telling you things, obviously, that you spent years thinking about.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: But just this idea of of struggling with, with your past and and and, and you know, resisting the urge to imagine your future is a huge challenge for me.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I constantly think about stupid things I've done and said in the past and that you know, I'm haunted by that stuff.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I wish I could get the big volume knob and turn that down, and I think I'm better at not trying not to imagine a future and being, you know anxious about what may or may not happen in the future.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I think I'm better at not trying not to imagine a future and being, you know, anxious about what may or may not happen in the future.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I think I'm much better at that Because I realized if you've ever been an actor or you know in the arts for any extent of period of time, you know there's no five-year plan.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: It's not, it's not worth even attempting that.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: I think I mean I don't this is my philosophy about these things.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I think I mean I don't this is my philosophy about these things.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: I think you know you do you do a project.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: It leads to other things.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, for instance, my career.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: I mean I never expected to be on Broadway.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I, I, how could I possibly have imagined that?
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: But it happened because I took advantage of every opportunity that presented itself, but it certainly was not part of any plan that I had any five-year plan or something.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: If I had, if I stopped to a plan, I probably would have not had the opportunities that I've had since then.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: So anyway, that's the future.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: The future is easier for me, but the past is difficult.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Got any?
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Got any gems?
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I think often what happens any gems.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I think often what happens, what I see a lot, is that we forget or maybe never even knew what our why was or what it is.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: And I think when we connect back to why we do what we do, that we reconnect with that because it's there.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: You do know that.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I do believe that you have the answers.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: If I were to say to you why do you do what you do, what would you say?
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hmm, that's an interesting question.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I, yeah, I guess I do it because, first of all, on some level, I'm compelled to do it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I do it because, first of all, on some level, I'm compelled to do it.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: It's I.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: It is when I feel happiest we were talking about happiness again when I'm working, when I'm in a room with actors, when I was recently working with Stroman, which was just a fantastic experience.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: There's I guess you know now that I say it out loud it's, it's sort of has comes back to that idea of connection, of connection because in, in that room, I'm connecting deeply with, with the performance, with, with my director, with my co-writers, you know, with the designers.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm connected, um, whereas most of the time I don't feel that way when I'm home, working alone, writing.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a very you really feel disconnected from the world when you're doing that.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: So maybe that's why I do it, because I have this desire to connect with people.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: I never really thought of it that way.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: That's probably what it is and, by extension, connect with an audience.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: When you can communicate your particular worldview through a show and see an audience react to that, that's a great feeling too.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is that a reasonable answer?
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Well, of course it is.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, anything you say is absolutely valid and you know what you're saying loud and clear is that one of your highest values is connection.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: You said you were a child actor, so you know you may have been talented at it and all of that, but at the bottom line, is you maybe didn't have your own?
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Why for it then?
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I did so.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: You answered beautifully.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: What stood out to me is when you mentioned that, yeah, I guess that's why I really like to do that.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Like you love being in the room, you love being with people, you love seeing the reactions, but it's lonely when I'm writing.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: So if I work with writers a lot and that's a common thing- yeah.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting because A well, that's where the work is done.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: You know that's where the work is done, that's the seed of it.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: But if you can think of that as connection when you're writing, as opposed to God, this is so lonely.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Can I get this done?
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: So I get the rehearsal.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: But if you can somehow embody the feeling of connection and realize that that's the conduit.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: It's not the only way you can get there, just as the classes that your mom put you in was not the only way that you could overcome your shyness.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: But it's something now that people feel connected to you.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: So imagine what the world is thinking when someone says Bob Martin's writing the sequel to Drowsy Chaperone when you're in your room, people are going to be going.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: You can, you can imagine, right People.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: They don't know you're in your room but they know it's not on stage yet.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: So maybe that would help fuel you to go.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Wow, no, no, I'm going to.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: By writing, I'm connecting even though no one's reading it yet.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: That's that's, that's great.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I'm getting a free session, no worries, but no, but that's absolutely true.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: If I could, if I could apply that same feeling of okay, I am connecting.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And you know, I'm always surprised.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: People come up to me and say, oh you, you know, I did your show.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: It's the first broadway show I ever saw, which is crazy to me.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: That drowsy chaperone would be someone's first broadway show.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: But for many people, it's also a show they do in high school, so it's the their first Broadway show that they do.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: The first musical they do is fantasy, which is crazy to me as well.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: It's difficult for me to be objective about my own career and how people are affected by it, but I should probably think that way.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: As you say, if I actually start thinking about how, when I'm writing, I will connect with people when that work is done, or that my writing itself is an attempt to connect, I guess yeah, I mean I never write anything that I'm going to squirrel away in a drawer.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I mean I always intended to be performed and to be seen and heard, so there's always an audience in my mind seen and heard, so there's always an audience in my mind.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: I would encourage you to find the connection to your work, as opposed to the connection of your work to the connection that you want.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Ah, I see Okay my connection to the work is another form of connection.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that the other thing that helped you shift, that was great.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Right, when you're able to go, oh yeah, when I sit down, actually it's, it's feeding into my big, big purpose of connecting and my big, you know, my big guy right but how does connection show up, you know, with me and my work when I'm writing, or me and myself when I'm talking about myself.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I think mean that's an interesting idea too.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, writing is very much a therapeutic exercise for me.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: I wonder if it is.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Is choreography that way for you Like, do you?
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is wow.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Being by myself it's a similar thing, because there's this kind of thing when I'm by myself and I don't know where it's coming from and I'm just you know what I mean.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of in the zone when I get out of my head and I'm in the zone.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: But then what I love is when I'm showing it to somebody and it gets transformed into someone that can do it better and that, you know, and it becomes something new.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: So I can relate to what you're saying, right new.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: I love that, so I can relate to what you're saying, right, yeah, yeah, that's exactly how it.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: I get the same thrill I get to seeing, oh he elevated that like that's.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that that's really.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I really like that.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: That's why I also like the casting process, because you'll write something and then you'll have some type of person in mind, but then someone comes into the room who's completely different from what you imagine and all of a sudden there are all of these other layers, and that's happened so many times.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: But that says a lot about you.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: It says a lot about you because you remain open.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: It's the same thing that you told me about.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: You know, I do suffer from imposter syndrome, but you know I'm willing to, to, to let that be, you know, a learning and I'm going forth.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: It's also about living wide open, remaining open because it's always there, everything's there, but we just don't choose to see it.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how that resonates with me is really when you are creating a musical, for instance which is a very difficult thing to do with a team of hundreds of people one way or another, sometimes lots of conflicting visions, but also all the constraints inherent in putting on a piece of theater, the physical venue, everything, the time, the point in history that you're putting this information out there.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: So it's what's the most crucial thing to do is to be able to step back and see the show, like, really see the show, really let the show show itself to you and what it wants to be.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: It's not an easy thing to do because of I think this is what I'm extrapolating from what you're saying because you are not.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: You have to be open.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: You have to be open to it.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: You can't have the prejudices or the expectations or the fixed ideas.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: You have to get rid of those and just really see what this collaborative enterprise has created and literally where that show wants to go, where the train wants to go.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: You have to really be able to see it.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: it's hard to do no for sure.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: It's amazing, isn't it?
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: yeah, it is, it's all about co-creation right, but you got to be open to co-create.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: And I think again, at the end of the day, it comes down to to understanding why and sometimes maybe that's where the distinctions are maybe people you know well, likely people, are doing it for different reasons.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: You you know, if you really get down to it, but somewhere there there's a common, there's an ultimate real reason that you can all come to, that you're all there for.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: We get very, like you said, narrow-minded when things are important to us, and that's normal.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: We're hardwired for it.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Sure, I think we need to know that that's normal and that's okay.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: But just because it's okay doesn't mean it's required.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: So we know that and that's the awareness piece.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: That's what I remarked on in the awareness of the man in chair.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: He's aware of the fact that he feels blue and he's aware of the fact that this is what he does.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: There's an awareness piece there that really intrigues me.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: So in the sequel because did I hear a rumor that there is maybe going to be a sequel?
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: we are working on a sequel.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be so interesting to know energetically, if anything has changed yeah you know, we're talking about that, yeah, that very, very thing.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Where is he now?
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: yeah, and not just yeah, like where is he intrinsically?
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Because there's, there is a whole intrinsic piece that's going on.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: That is so beautifully juxtaposed with that, the idea that he can't go out.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: But he can go in.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: And he kind of goes in, but he kind of goes in through something else.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, and literally going out.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's interesting that you know, between the original show and what I hope will be the sequel was a period where the entire world was trapped inside their apartment.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, true, All experienced.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: True, you know what it would be like to be in a chair.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: So true, I love that Amazing.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: What's the hardest thing you ever had?
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: You know, I am divorced and the decisions that were required during that process of the two of us breaking apart was they were very, very hard, and I felt that I did have to make that.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: We both did.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: We both had to make a decision to leave the marriage and it was it was.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: It was extremely hard.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably better for both of us now.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I think we get along quite well and we're both in other relationships and, uh, you know, that was probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Well, and it says a lot again.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: That says a lot about you and how much you care, right, I mean, it's funny.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: We were talking about what's on the other side of happiness, right?
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: That sort of limiting belief that happiness is just one thing.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Happiness, right?
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: That sort of limiting belief that happiness is just one thing.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, it was hard, because it was so wonderful, because, do you know what it's difficult sometimes to do the right thing for, for you or for others?
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: You know when, when, when you have known things that are also, you know, worth considering, but it's, it's harder to do the opposite yes to stay in for those reasons, you know, and so kudos to you, I mean yeah oh, I, I don't know about that, but
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: but, anyway it was.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: It was a difficult.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Like you know, life has full of situations and that 100.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: What's the easiest decision you ever made?
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: um, when I finished university, I went to u of t and I was acting while I was at university to sort of pay for university.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: But I was finding it very frustrating waiting by the phone, having no control over my life and everything, and so I took a job as an associate editor at a children's book company.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: It was like an actual job a real job, job Wow.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a real job after graduation and I was doing okay there and I liked the people.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: But I was also volunteering at the Toronto international film festival and I was experiencing that world and I remember taking a week off to do the festival and then I came back to the, the job and I was like I can't do this anymore.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I would, and I, I, I, I said I'm going to take a vow of poverty.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: That was my, that was the decision that I'm talking about.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: I said I'm not going to earn any money, but I'm going to be in the arts and I'm going to be an actor and I'm going to be a writer and I'm going to be a happier person.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: And so that decision to take a vow of poverty led to, you know, a much, a much fuller life and probably more money than I would have made as an editing children's books.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: So that was the easiest decision I ever made.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: There was no decision to make.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: It's like and I said before about being compelled to do what I do.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: I think that was part of it.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, I have to create stuff.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: It's so funny.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: I just have to point out that you prefaced it with I took a vow of poverty.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: It was the vow of poverty which is interesting because that's speaking into the world all the limiting beliefs that it has to be that way, because you went on to say, well, actually I wasn't poor at all.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, you might have been poor for a minute, but that's like playing up to.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: You know, all those limiting beliefs that we have, like you have to suffer and you have to be.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: You know all.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: There's so many, right, but you know you have to be poor, and so you know it's like this badge of courage.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Right, you know I choose poverty or whatever.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: But we're just playing to the man when we say that.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Right, it's like no, I choose art and and and that's okay.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I could have said it that way, but I but I guess what I meant was I'm not going to do it part-time.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: I like that's part.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: I I'm not going to, you know, work as a waiter and be an actor.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going to, you know, work as a waiter and be an actor.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to not earn any money and do it full time.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: I was trying to be practical, so cute.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I'm just, I'm just picking on you, I'm just messing with you.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean, though right, yeah, oh no, I know exactly what you mean.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: I could have easily have said I'm going to be an artist and that's yeah.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I know I'm going to do it yeah, but I know I'm going to do it Way more powerful than I'm going to start it up.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: I know that's me.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Do you remember where you were when you heard Broadway was shutting down, do you?
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: remember that moment I was going to see a show that evening, I had the tickets in my hand and we were just debating on whether to go downtown or not.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: That's another thing, right?
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Television has been going through, you know, dramatic changes over the last 20 years, dramatic changes especially right now.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: It's really in flux and I always thought well, theater, theater is eternal.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Theater has been the same for thousands of years.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: You know, theater will always be.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: And then it was so, so rattling to have have it just closed down and then and then to think, oh my God, it's possible that it will never recover.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: You know, and and and, absolutely the COVID took terrible toll on regional theaters and everything like that.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Broadway is still dealing with.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: You know what happened?
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, yeah, I, I.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: That was a.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: That was a real eye opener.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, was it.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Was there anything that you learned about yourself, maybe that you wouldn't have otherwise had that not happened?
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Um, it was a really.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: It was a very difficult time for a number of reasons.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: I lost my mother during that period.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Janet, my ex-wife, had a health scare and it was pretty bad, but she's now fully passed.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time in Canada during the pandemic.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: I think one of the things that I've always struggled with and it's blatantly obvious if anybody who's listened this far is you know I struggle to, to socialize with people, to connect with people.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: I still am a shy person at heart and and being when you're given permission not to go out and not to not not to see other people, it's very tempting to just stay there and withdraw into that place.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: So that's that was a little frightening.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: It's like, ooh, I could just always be like this and that, and so I have to.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: That.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: That was a revelation that came out of the pandemic that I have to really make an effort to get out into the world and to be with people, not just in a working situation, but to socialize more, connect with my family, connect with my friends.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean I don't know if you can relate to this, but we're in another country now.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: We have a lot, a whole other group of people in canada right that we don't see as much um and I I gotta make more of an effort connecting with those people in my past who are very important to me yeah, yeah, all about connection keeps coming up.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: It's a theme I was.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say absolutely, absolutely, yeah, I love it if you had, if you could choose one, one low light and one highlight from's.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: There's so many.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Uh, I do remember a particular night on stage at second city, where I was, I started quoting Monty Python in a sketch and that was just a ridiculous, huge mistake.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: I did it, I was doing it unconsciously and I was so embarrassed by it.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I had lots of, lots of low points on stage at Second City.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: High points, well, I think.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Well, probably when we did Drowsy at the NAMP Festival, this was the first time that anything I had really done was uh was heard by an American audience.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Namt is this festival where you deal, you have an audience of producers and you do, um, basically an hour of your new show and you hope that people react to it.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: And so we did this and I actually directed the presentation and I played man and chair in the presentation and it could not possibly have gone better than it did.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: In fact, it was so good that the stage management had to cut off the presentation because there was so much laughter and applause, and so I think that was that was a really exciting moment.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: That was a moment like, okay, our, our stupid little sense of humor, you know, is something that that people can relate to.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Uh, you know, that was very exciting that's cool you made your broadway debut right um as man in chair and that it starts with that curtain and your you said your face is like was right up against the curtain yeah, scary I'm super interested in the moments, between the moments, and so you know, between when someone says places and when you go to the stage or before you walk on the scene.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: You know before things happen.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: You know and, and I'm so curious, can you tap into what that felt like in retrospect?
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Maybe you don't, I don't know, but do you, can you sort of in retrospect maybe?
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: you don't.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but can you sort of embody that feeling?
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: No, it was a it's.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: It was a particularly profound way to make your debut, because the first thing the audience hears- is my voice.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: It's an unusual way for a show to begin.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: It's completely in the dark and you hear this disembodied voice of this person who's basically whining and complaining, and uh, and I'm hearing the audience's reaction to what I'm saying yeah and, and there were nights.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: You know I did that part a lot for years and years and years.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: There were nights when I just did not want to go on right.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: I just I was sitting in that chair with the right up against the curtain thinking how am I possibly going to get through this tonight, um, but, but then you know I would get the cue and that I could.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: I could hear, you know, the audience go quiet.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: I couldn't see them because the curtain, but I could hear the audience go quiet because because the house lights went down and I had to wait and extend and create an extended sort of awkward moment of silence before I spoke.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: You know, so it was.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: It was very, very difficult to get out of my head and say that first line of dialogue every night I bet, but you did it how?
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: did you how?
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: did you do it?
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I guess I just leapt, you know.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: I mean I.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know how else to say it.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: It's I mean, I guess this is this conversation coming full circle.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: It was like the first time I performed on stage at second city with nothing.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I just let myself go and and you, you know, as soon as the curtain came up and the lights came up and I could see the audience and connect with them again, I felt.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I felt energized.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: But I had to take that step off the cliff in the dark, every time in the show.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, this sounds like so highfalutin, but it is.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: It is a difficult moment because because you know, when you're a performer, sometimes you don't feel like performing.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: There's other things going on in your life, you're sick or something you know, I had kidney stones during the run of of drowsy chaperone, terrifying um.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: I actually kept a little bottle of percocet next to me, you know, on stage, because I was afraid of getting an attack.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: So that was wow that was in my head.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: So there are other things going, you know, in your mind oh, for sure especially the first time you did it right yeah, yeah, that must have been something you know.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: We talk about how we create stories in our heads, right?
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: If?
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: If there was, if you could rewrite any of the stories that kind of circulate in your head, what might that be?
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I mean that that, to me, is all about having made better, stronger choices, and I, and I guess when I, when I say stronger, I mean you know, I should have been more courageous in choice.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, there it is, so rewrite that part of the script.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: That's the script I'm talking about.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: I should have been more courageous.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: The courageous thing is.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: What I mean is just say be honest, say, say what I want you know?
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: And why?
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Why is it important?
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: to say what you want, because not saying what you want hurts people.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Tell me why it is good.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Why is it good to say what you want?
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Because it's it's you know what it is.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: It's like what I said about comic characters.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Uh, comic characters are about their flaws and prejudices.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: They're all about avoidance.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: Heroic characters are about, are about, you know, direct conflict, in a sense like a direct attachment, direct attack.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: So, rather than spending time in this larry david world of avoiding dealing with the obvious, I should, I should deal with the obvious more directly.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: I should be more direct you know what I call.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: I should right yeah, I could.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: With shame, I could change.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right, yes, so I have this whole thing of energetic choice.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: So you start, literally these are these five energetic choices on the choice capacitor, right there's I can't.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: And when we're saying to ourselves I can't, well, we know what happens there.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: And then when we say I have to, we push through.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: That's that kind of win-lose frame of mind, but it does kind of move you up the scale.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Then when we get to I should, there's kind of an acknowledgement that you have the capabilities and that it would be good for you.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: I should, because.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: But it's totally fueled by shame.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: But when you lose the shame, then you just have the capability I could do that.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: And then you start leaning into possibilities I could be more clear, I could do that.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: And then you start leaning into possibilities I could be more clear, I could communicate more, I could be more courageous.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: And then when you're there, you start to go no, I want to, which is the fourth energetic choice.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: I want to be more courageous because and that's connected to your why and then guess what, once you're doing it, I get to be courageous, which is choice with gratitude, I get to.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love it.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Choice with gratitude Okay.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that's great.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: So you kept saying should.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: So I had to say something because that's yeah, I know, yes, everything you're saying is ringing very, very true.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, so quick question what would you do if you weren't in the performing arts?
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: What would you do, oh, if the performing arts didn't exist?
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I, love science actually, in fact, I almost went into that field.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: I went, I wanted to be.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: I almost took a course at lakehead university in scientific photography instead of going into english and film.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: I was accepted in.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: I was gonna do it.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: Um, I love it, but no, but so I love science.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: I'm always sort of obsessed with science.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: I read a lot of books about physics and, and you know, reading a book about memory right now, um, that's cool.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Well, actually about time, about how the brain processes time, which is kind of fascinating in the book.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, I've always been very interested in science, I think I think there were there's another version of me that was a doctor or something like that.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: That's cool.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: What's one thing that maybe you haven't put out in the universe that you'd like to do, and it doesn't have to be in your field?
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Is there something that you know?
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Occasionally it swims around you kind of go.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: I'd like to do that, but I don't know um, I've really been trying to lean in more into music.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: I know it sounds ridiculous for me to say that because I create musicals, but I'm not a musician at all.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I, I, I, I write the words that are not sung, so I but I've.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: But I love music.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: There's nothing that excites me more than even though I'm not a musician.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: So I would like to be a musician.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: I see a guitar behind you, so you're yes, I can play a little bit, but I'm terrible but I that's cool.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: I would love to.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: I also have a drum set here and everything.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: I would love to develop that part of myself.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's neat.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: How do you want to be remembered?
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: I hope that people you know think of me as a sort of clever comic writer.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: That made them feel things.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's done, because that's how you've made me feel you have succeeded my friend.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Anything else, come up for you.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I, I'm, I'm really into my relationship with my son right now.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: You know, it's never been a father before he's 16.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: He's going to be 17 in a couple of months and we have a, I think, father before he's 16.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: He's gonna be 17 in a couple months and we have a, I think a great relationship and and he's a fascinating kid and he's really smart and and uh, I mean I hope I live long enough to see what he really does.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, can you finish this phrase?
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: I think oh yeah, most people, most people think bob martin is, but the truth is but Most people think Bob Martin is an extrovert.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Bob Martin is not an extrovert, bob Martin is an introvert, is the main thing, although, hilariously, I remember this one thing too that I lived briefly in the Lower East Side of New York and I used to go to this barber.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: It was right next to my apartment and he was just always entertaining everybody who came in and I would just sit there quietly while he cut my hair and everything like that.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: And then one day he said what do you do?
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: And I said, oh, I'm a comedian.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, that is funny.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: He stopped and he just like literally stopped.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: He said what are you talking about?
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: And he could not comprehend, because I had never said anything remotely funny, I had barely spoken, I had been complete.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: While he was entertaining, he wanted to be a comedian so badly, oh my god, that's hilarious.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: So, uh, yeah, so there's that thing too.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: People are always shocked by how um serious I am as a human being when they meet me, the uh, because they see me being, you know, basically a clown in the various roles I've done over the years.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: But they, but they, they are always shocked at the humorlessness of the interchange that's really.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really funny.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I do have to let you go, but I not without uh doing our rapid fire.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: So you'll be good at this.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna say what makes you.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say what makes you.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to say an adjective and you're just going to say the first thing that comes to your mind.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: All right, you ready?
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what makes you hungry, I guess?
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Wow, honestly, the first word that came was competition.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Isn't that terrible.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: No, it's not.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: Competition when.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I get jealous it makes me hungry, and I mean, I'm speaking of course metaphorically.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's okay, that's really cool.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, I wish we had more time.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: That's neat.
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: So sidebar that, okay.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: What makes you sad?
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: Pain.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: I think seeing, uh yeah, people in pain, either physical or emotional pain, for sure.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: What inspires you?
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: I a what inspires you I talent.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Talent inspires me.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: I see people with who are uniquely talented, unique voices I find extremely inspiring yeah, what frustrates you?
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: ignorance what makes you?
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: laugh.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, truths, I guess, is my answer to that.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: What makes you angry?
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Again, prejudice and ignorance, both hand in hand.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: There's nothing that makes me more angry than that.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and finally, what makes you grateful?
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, my son, I think.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: What are the top three things that happened today so far?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: today has been a slow day.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Um, it's well, the sun is out, which I'm very happy about, excuse me, because it's been rainy and miserable and cold here.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: Um, my uh partner was quite it's still sick last night and uh, she, she was sort of recovering today.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: That made me very happy.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I've spent a lot of time with with my cat today too.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Yay, these are all tiny things these are great.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, no caveats.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: It's so funny you started with well, and this is a gratitude exercise, right, and it's so funny.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: Everybody, you know, I go.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: What are the top three things that happens in our heart today?
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: Well, the day is, you know, it's early, or this is a slow day, or whatever it's like, as if there's some sort of like requirement that it has to be something.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's interesting, right, because it's gratitude again is to be's interesting, right, because it's it's uh, gratitude again is to be found everywhere, right?
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: I know I gotta stop.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: I gotta stop apologizing for my own experience.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, um, and then oh, just one final question is what's something that you're looking forward to?
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean work.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of work lined up.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: It's it's all very, very exciting.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: I've been involved in a show that's going to open in the West end I'm I have two shows in development that should be on Broadway next spring.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: I have a third show that apparently just got a theater in Atlanta next year, which I'm very excited about.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: So work, I just love work that's fabulous, bob.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you seriously so much for spending.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: It's been so great to get to know you.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate you being here with me today oh, it's been wonderful to to meet you too and to talk about these things, which I'm always thinking about anyway.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: So it's it's wonderful to have a conversation about them.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: Nice to get them out right.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: I've been speaking today with Bob Martin.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: I'm Lisa Hopkins.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Stay safe and healthy, everyone, and remember to live in the moment.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: In music, stop time is that beautiful moment where the band is suspended in rhythmic unison, supporting the soloist to express their individuality In the moment.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I encourage you to take that time and create your own rhythm.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: Until next time, I'm Lisa Hopkins.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.