Latest / Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!! / Shame is NOT!! your fault

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Shame is NOT!! your fault · Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!!

• peter: ⁓ but Pete "mental Health Champ": Welcome to another exciting episode of Pete for Exciting. Before we get started today, let's give a shout out to my partners over at PsychPAL, guys. There's a link in the description of this episode if y'all want to go check it out. Click it, you get a seven day free trial. If you want to go ahead and sign up after that, guys, I did a great job for you. I got you 20 % off your first month. Use the code PETE at checkout for 20 % off your first month of PsychPAL, guys. And with that being said, my guest today is a speaker, author, advocate, and most importantly, a survivor who's transferred her decades of pain into a purpose, hope, Pete: Ever wish you had someone to talk to anytime, anywhere, matter what you're going through? Meet PsychPAL, your 24-7 AI companion, designed to help you process your thoughts, calm your mind, and keep you moving forward. Chat anytime during a panic attack on a restless night or just when you need to vent. Prefer talking instead of typing? Try voice journaling. PsychPAL listens, transcribes, and truly understands. You can even upload screenshots of tough conversations, and it'll help you unpack how they made you feel. PsychPAL keeps life organized, too. Pete "mental Health Champ": and healing for herself and others. She also partners with STA and sexual assault organizations worldwide, speaking at conferences, survivor events, corporate gatherings about resiliency, justice, and the freedom of speaking your truth. Please welcome in the one, only Darlene LeBron, is it LeCron? How do you say that? I am so terrible. Pete: It can add appointments to your calendar, track your mood, and even summarize your sessions for your therapist so you'll never lose progress. Plus, built-in crisis resources are always just one click away. It's a privacy-first, constantly evolving, made to complement your professional care, not replace it. Ready to try it out? Head over to the link in this episode and use my code, Pete, at checkout to get 20 % off your first month subscription to PsychPAL. PsychPAL, because your mind deserves a companion too. Darlene Lekowski: It's okay, no problem. Everybody says Lebowski because of the movie, but it's actually Lekowski. There's no B in the middle. Pete "mental Health Champ": That's what I wanted to say too. I was like I was gonna say it watch I was gonna say the well Right there you go. Well well Darlene comes in as a Kind of a you know referral from our good friend Katherine over the willing Helen matters podcast So obviously we were excited to have her come on so Darlene. Thank you so much for being here So why don't you tell everybody a little more about yourself? I mean that was a pretty great intro, but you know what what some other things people may not know Darlene Lekowski: Yeah, the great Likowski, how's that? You can thank my husband for that. Pete: There we go. I think that's the one I like. We got it. We got it. Boom. Darlene Lekowski: Yeah, I I am, I've been a mother of three. I have three adult children in their twenties. I'm on my second marriage, which some of us have had that. And I also work full time. I've been in the banking industry since the late eighties. But the one thing that is new about me that got fully disclosed two years ago, is the fact that I opened up my box of secrets and I am a survivor of sibling sexual trauma and abuse. And I'm the youngest of five children and sadly in the 1970s from the ages of seven to 12, I was sexually abused by my two oldest brothers. Pete "mental Health Champ": I'm so sorry, first off. I know this is a sensitive subject. I appreciate you coming and the things you're doing. I know people really appreciate it, because it's a very sensitive subject when you get into it. I know you were saying you've done a lot of interviews prior to this, which is great too. But when you first started doing this, it had to be hard to bring out the secret and the shame of that at the same time, because you're having to tell people about this. You don't know how they're going to react. Darlene Lekowski: Oh, absolutely. mean, Pete, I just went public April of 2024 during sibling day. And had you talked to me like a year and a half ago when I started going on these podcasts last October, I mean, it was very difficult because you're right. That shame is so strong. And what I've learned through talking with people like you writing my book is that as survivors, the shame is not ours to carry. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. Darlene Lekowski: We carry it, we bury it, you know, this is our burden. And part of my story is talking about how you have to release the shame in order to live your life forward. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, you know, it had to be hard though carrying that with you all them years because it had to change your perspective of how you looked at things from relationship wise too because of everything that was going on. And then, you know, these things are going on because I know a lot of people that are victims tend to blame themselves when it's really not their fault that these things happened. Darlene Lekowski: Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I it is so crazy that I thought I was the only one in the world that this happened to just until two years ago. And if you hear the statistics, P, SSPA, or the former name is incest, which is an icky word. Nobody wants to say that word. It is thought to be by research, the most common form. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. scary I'm sure. Darlene Lekowski: of childhood sexual abuse in the world, yet no one talks about it. And that's part of my mission. I I hid a secret for 50 years. I thought I was taking this to my grave. And an incident happened after my mom passed away that did a different trajectory for me. And honestly, I'm so happy that it happened. I'm so happy that I don't have this burden anymore and I can talk openly and freely about it. So. Amanda Landes: that I had been kind of like since head for a while about about writing the story because Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: Hopefully by me talking about it, I'm able to help others. I mean, the other statistic Pete is think of a classroom of one in 20 to 25 children. At least one child in that classroom is currently getting sexually abused by an older brother or sister. It is that common. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. That's horrible. That really is. That's just... That's so horrible. You know, what happens afterwards and then all the effects and things that go through all the... God, you know, it's hard because it's like, you know, this is still happening. Like, one kid out of every 20 is still crazy to say that, like, this is going on and people don't talk about it. And, you know, it's just like a lot of things. Like, people want to talk about suicide. Not a comfortable subject either, but we got to talk about these things, especially that because... Darlene Lekowski: I know. Hmm? Pete "mental Health Champ": What you're doing to these siblings is you're traumatizing them. It affects how they interact with other people. And as you've been sitting with it for so long, it had to be a hard road for you, Darlene Lekowski: Yeah, I mean, as survivors and ⁓ people with lots of different issues, we tend to turn to drugs and alcohol. ⁓ I did have a couple, about two to three episodes of where I just didn't want to live anymore. And part of my story is, you know, when I was walking on shards of glass and I was drinking and I was doing drugs and Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: how did I keep going? How did I find the resiliency to get past all of that? And even just two years ago, I got slammed with my trauma in my face. I had to go on a stand in a court of law. And we can talk about that in a second, Pete, but it is just insane what we go through as victims. And one of the things that I always talk about is I think Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: Well, I know incest is even more challenging because of the fact it's our family member. We're supposed to trust that brother. We're supposed to trust our parent. We're supposed to have these people love us and protect us. And instead they're abusing us. So as a little girl, I had to make the decision like, Pete "mental Health Champ": Exactly. Right. Darlene Lekowski: I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't, to be honest with you. And in the seventies, nobody talked about this stuff. Nobody had help. And the biggest dilemma that I see, that I faced was if I tell my family, I'm going to destroy my family. I mean, my mom owned a Christian bookstore. My dad was a big, huge engineer in our community. But if I don't tell, I'm going to destroy myself. And I almost did. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, yeah, I can only imagine, you know, and then, you know, trying to keep that in it's just God, it like I said, it had to be affecting a lot of things, you know, like, you know, just trying to keep silent about it, then you have to see them all the time, and family get togethers, and they see you eye to eye. And it's like, you know, what you did to me, and you're just gonna act like nothing happened. And then, you know, if you were to say something, you're denied a lot of victims, go tell somebody and then they're like, well, they didn't believe anything I said, even though we tell our kids, hey, if somebody does something to you, go tell them it's like, So now you're telling them to tell you something, but then when they tell you something, you're telling them, ⁓ wait, that didn't happen. It's like, wait, you just told me to go tell you. You know what mean? Like you're sending them into a cycle of confusion because you're like, well, mom told me to tell them if something happens, then I did and she doesn't believe me. know, it's just, to me, it's just like, well, what are we doing to these poor kids? If we're telling them, hey, listen, talk to us when you have a problem, they, well, then you come to them with a problem. You're like, well, nevermind. What you're saying is doesn't make sense. You're too far-fetched. Really? Because I'm telling you, it's kind of hard to make up somebody touching me inappropriately to make that a little far-fetched. Darlene Lekowski: Yeah, study after study after study will show that children don't lie about sexual abuse. Children do not lie about being touched inappropriately, but I think part of my message is educating parents. Have those conversations now with your children. Talk about the bathing suit zone. We talk about stranger danger. We talk about if there's a fire. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Darlene Lekowski: stop, drop, and roll. Well, what we need to start doing as parents is yell, run, and tell. And yes, there could be danger within your home. And if anybody is trying to touch you in the bathing suit zone, that's off limits. And for me, I knew my mom and dad would believe me, but I also knew it was gonna get buried. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Darlene Lekowski: And how would I have felt as a little girl to come out and think I'm the only one in the world, I'd be labeled with that scarlet letter forever. So for me personally, I chose not to tell. I chose and vowed that my parents were never to know and I built a box of trauma. And then I built a new Darlene on top of that box. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, that had to be hard though to keep that mask up for so long though. What was the pinnacle point though that you were like, well, you know what, I'm gonna say something because it ended up to about two years ago when you just finally started saying something. What was that one moment though that you were like, you know what, fuck it, it's time to rip the bandaid off and just let this thing go. Darlene Lekowski: I almost have to back up the truck a little bit. ⁓ Well, no, let's not back up. Let's just start where it happened. So ⁓ have hidden my secret for 50 years. I've been successful. My mom and dad don't know. And I built this ⁓ personality, if you will. I built the perfect Darlene, the hypervigilant Darlene, the highly successful Darlene on top of my trauma. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. Darlene Lekowski: And I used all of those survival tactics to become the mother that I am today, to become the business leader that I am today. But I also had that little Darlene in the box where the box kept leaking. I had PTSD all my life, but I wasn't diagnosed with it until I was 58. I didn't know what PTSD was. I thought my A type behavior was just normal. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ I believe it. Darlene Lekowski: And so that, you know, I had PTSD moments where with my girlfriends, like a brother, a girlfriend's brother kissed me in a hallway. I flipped out. I had to explain like, that's not normal behavior, but this is why. So over the years, I ended up confiding in six or seven girlfriends, telling them what happened. And that's what I would say to your listeners. If you're not going to tell. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay, okay. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: people that can help you, then find a resource. And for me, it was my girlfriends, you know, in the eighties, then I started going to therapy. But then I kind of shut the box down. You know, I had kids 40 years go by and my mom passes away suddenly in 2021. My dad has dementia. So the threat of anybody learning about my secret, the two that I cared about the most is gone. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: I don't think it's a coincidence that my brain, three months after mom dies, I get in a big argument with one of the brothers who raped me. And it's a text messaging argument. I talk about it in the book. I actually call it the volcano text. You know, I'm trying to call him. He won't pick up the phone. And finally, little Darlene came out of that box and said, you know what? I've had it. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay. Okay. Darlene Lekowski: And I just say to my brother who's five years older than me. So the two brothers, let me back up that truck a little bit. I'm the youngest of five. I have a sister, had a sister 11 years older than me. She passed away of cancer in 2008. So she never knew about it. Thank you. So then I have three brothers in between. One is nine years older. He assaulted me. One is five years older. He's the other one that assaulted me. And then the one that's two and a half years older. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Yikes. Sorry. Mm-hmm. Darlene Lekowski: I'm very close to he chose the truth and he's been by my side ever since. But this volcano text happens. That brother now is out telling all of my family members. Darlene's had a nervous breakdown. Darlene is psychotic. Yeah, he's the one that went out and told everybody that night because in that text, I had finally had it and I just said, look, Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay. Darlene Lekowski: I'm tired of the way that you're treating me and if you don't stop treating me like this, I can destroy your life if you want me to because you destroyed my innocence and you destroyed my childhood and I say rapist at the end of the text. You know what his response was Pete? Pete "mental Health Champ": some cold-hearted. Darlene Lekowski: He says, go for it right now. Like he was invincible. Like he didn't do anything wrong. And I was just like, are you kidding me? So then three weeks later, decide, you know what? Little Darlene got out of the box. She was really pissed off in that text. It's not a pretty text. So then I write an email to my three brothers and I call it the facts. Now adult Darlene is saying, okay, this is what happened. These are the... Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: Incidents that I remember, you know, twice with David, four times with Don. These are not fake memories. And I even end the email going, love Darlene. And people, you know, might go, how can you love these brothers? That's the dynamic. It's so weird. But they had grown up to be decent men. And Pete, I was hoping and praying for an apology. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: for validation that these brothers would say, yeah, I did it. I'm so sorry. I'm so terrible for what I did. One of them apologized to the one nine years older than me and I was validated. You know what the second one did? Pete "mental Health Champ": He said, bring it on. Darlene Lekowski: He said, bring it on. he had a sheriff show up at my door and sued me for defamation. And I was just blown away. Like, what do you do when you, you know, the one thing you think you need to heal an apology never arrives and then you get sued. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: I mean, was so unprepared for it. mean, I was as unprepared for it that I ended up finding a lawyer on our neighborhood Facebook account. I mean, that's, it was just crazy and I couldn't believe it, but I had just come to the point where enough is enough. You could have settled this down. You could have settled it. Now you've sued me. Now I've spent thousands of dollars in legal fees. Even if I am the defendant and you're the plaintiff, I'm not going to stop taking this out of the courts until you pay me for my legal fees. So for two years we tried to negotiate and it didn't work. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. ⁓ I wouldn't think you can negotiate with him. I didn't see that coming to be the outcome of any kind of negotiation whatsoever, because he's still standing at the point of, didn't do anything wrong. I'm like, yeah, but you did, though. You took her innocence. Like, what the hell is wrong with you, man? Like, you have no remorse for what you did whatsoever, clearly, in this case. So what was your husband's reaction? Did he know about this whole secret or did you not tell him either? Darlene Lekowski: Yeah. Well, so I did tell both husbands because for me, you know, that whole, you know, was drinking, I was doing drugs, I was doing everything to put out that box and that fire that with my first husband, I told him before we got married, I just felt like it actually with both husbands, I told them prior to getting engaged because I didn't feel like I was worthy enough to be loved to be married. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: Both husbands, believe me, the first husband just ended up being with him for 24 years, married for 21. It just was not a good marriage, not a good relationship. My three children are from that, so I'm very thankful for those children. But my second husband, who I've been together with since, I've been married since 2013, together since about 2012, He is a Brooklyn New Yorker. He is livid. And every time those brothers came in my house, to your point, we moved my parents to Charlotte, North Carolina. One of my assailant brothers lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm hosting Christmas, Thanksgiving, Mother's Day at my house. And I get in a huge argument with my current husband because he's like, I can't believe you're allowing this man in our home, the man who raped my wife. Pete: went to doing like pre-recordings. Darlene Lekowski: And I say, I've had 50 years to deal with this, to cope with this. My parents are not to find out. And I kept pulling people into that secret box with me. And so he, he put up with it and dealt with it. But then when the trial hit, ⁓ game on my friend, game on. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, I agree. I agree. Listen, he had more comment I would because I would have lost it completely because of me. I was like, oh, hell no. You know, because like, I just like, yeah, no, I couldn't keep my cool. I would have lost it. you know, because I was asking that because, you know, intimacy had to be kind of tough, though, because given the situation, would I not be right? You know, a little bit. I'm just curious because it's like, you know, I know a lot of people ask those questions, but, know. you're going to be spending your life with this person. You're going to be intimate at some point. I figured the conversation would come up at some point because something may have triggered you in that process, something going on. Darlene Lekowski: I think it's a really great question and you're the first person to have asked me that of all the podcasts I've been on. Pete "mental Health Champ": You know, that's what I got from the last person that was assaulted too. We had another woman come on and she was like, no one's ever asked me. like, she's like, I appreciate asking me. like, I'm just like, but I'm like, let's think of it from the aspect of like, let's, we're adults here, let's have an adult conversation about this because something in there would have triggered at some point, you know, and then that, I would have thought the conversation when it came up before marriage, just like, hey, listen, there's something I need to tell you why I'm acting a little weird, you know, things like that. Darlene Lekowski: Right. Yeah, yeah. So you're right. I didn't talk about it, but at 17 years old, I was dating my first serious boyfriend. He was 19. I was 17. The first time I ever had consensual sex, I bawled. I cried. I was hysterical and he did not know what was going on. He thought he hurt me. I, again, the shame, Pete, I... Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: was so embarrassed to tell him that I wasn't a virgin. That was my hangup. That was my trigger. And ⁓ you know, there were other moments and I show some of them in the book as well that I had some sexual moments where I didn't know I was supposed to say no. I didn't know that you could say no. You you're taught to do whatever the person, the man wants from you. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: So I did have a lot of issues with that. And then even my first husband, ⁓ we were kind of friends. I I don't know how to put it, but sex was okay. It was just part of the package, if you will. I think with my, I know, not think, I think with my second husband, Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: You know, I'm the one who divorced my first husband. I'm the one who initiated it. So then when I was looking for a second partner, I had standards here now, not down here where I was. And so I found an incredible man who was my match, who showed me what love really was. And I gotta tell you, once I found that love, it's been the best sex I've ever had in my life. How's that? Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. You know what saying? People feel like it's a taboo topic, but it's not. Really think about it. Because I'm just curious because it's like, you know it would have had to come up sooner than that. Just because something's a trigger and you were crying. But it's like, I don't want to tell them that because that's my biggest hookup. Because then it was a little different than everything else. Because it was viewed differently then. Women were taught that they had the rules in the kitchen back in the 70s. And I'm not saying I agree with this now, but that's what it was then. That's just how they had their own rule, but it's not like that anymore. And I feel like too many people try to go back to that. And it's like, that's not how things work. It was never right before just because that's what they thought then. And what we know now is just like, no, that's not how we look at things. Darlene Lekowski: Right, right. And I'll be honest with you, I'm even with my second husband because I still had the box, because I still had all my survival tactics I was using as an adult that really weren't working for me anymore. They're actually literally killing me because I had made postulates, you know, if I'm in control of every single situation, every single person, I'm not going to get raped. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Darlene Lekowski: You know, I had vowed at nine years old that those brothers were never going to see me fail. I'm just going to rise above. Well, if you always have to win, if you're never going to fail, then your husband becomes your enemy. Your children become your opponents. And I had to shed my self of all of that and really reflect and go, what am I doing that's causing all these relationship issues? And it wasn't until Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: I went to trial, I had another PTSD moment, a huge one with my daughter, that I finally went, holy crap, I've got to change or I'm gonna go down with the ships. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, yeah, you know, and I'm sure that's your biggest fear to daughter to something happening to her though. You've been through this and you know, you hope for the best because I have three daughters of my own and you know, my thing is like, I don't want them to go through a situation like that because like if that phone call would come through, I'd be behind bars at that point and I'd be honest because I wouldn't think twice about it. Like it's game over for that person. Because to me, it's just like you're stealing their innocence, like you said, you know, and now that you have a daughter of your own, when this when the book came out, did she read this book? Does she know all the details? OK, all right. Darlene Lekowski: Yeah. Yep. Yep. In fact, when the explosion text happened, I mean, my brother was calling around family members. And so my kids are in their mid twenties and I'm like, my kids are now going to find out. so me, I'm so embarrassed, so ashamed. And I'm like, ⁓ my God, I have to tell my children we're going on a big family vacation design on national park. And I Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ okay. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: I have twins who are now 25. They were like 23 at the time and I pull them in a room and I tell them everything and I was so fearful. I was like, they're going to be disgusted by me. They're going to think all these horrible things of me. Well, you know what? Telling my children was one of the best things I've ever done because now Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: They understand me like my sons. were like, mom, now I know why you were always in our business, why you were so controlling, why you couldn't let go of anything. And then my daughter, she's 29 now. I think she was like 26, 27 at the time. And she, she's in my office at home when I tell her and she's like, mom, just like my sons, I believe you, I love you. But then she says, Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: One incredible thing that I think was just so introspective is she's like, mom, I hear you, I believe you, but I also hear you haven't forgiven yourself first. And that was the moment where shame left the box and I started forgiving myself first. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I agree with her on that one, you know, but it's hard though, because you blame yourself for what happened, but it really wasn't your fault, you know, but hats off to them for being so supportive, you know, like, did a lot of things make sense to them? Okay, well, you know, mom's carrying this shame around. And now, you know, now the book comes out, she's read all the gritty details of everything, you know, I already I assume she's really super supportive. And after that, she's probably like, ⁓ my God, wow. Darlene Lekowski: Mm-hmm. Pete "mental Health Champ": You know, because, you know, I just feel that's just how this conversation went with her after she read it all. You know, what was the reaction of the other family members? I know your other family members were dying to read this thing to see what was going on. You know what mean? Because if it caused that much for him to sue you and you guys have to go to court, you know, the rest of the family is like, we got to know what's going on. And then the book comes out. ⁓ man, that's when the real it gets really blown right open, you know, because the other did you did you mention the other brother in the book to the oldest one to because. Darlene Lekowski: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": You remember now, I remember now you said that you guys had got you. He apologized for what happened, but now he's going to be in this book like it couldn't end it well for after that for him either. Darlene Lekowski: Well, so the first brother, so that remember I told you the one brother was calling everybody and I just knew, I'm like, there's one person that I have to call first to see if this is true. Like I'm not making this stuff up. So I called the brother nine years older and I'm like, David, I have all these memories. Can you please just tell me that you did this? And he's like, yeah. He goes, I'm really, really sorry. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: I'm a piece of shit. I am so ashamed and embarrassed. Now, mind you, this is the brother that became a drug addict, became the alcoholic, became not a very good father ⁓ because of all of his issues. He apologized. The second brother, Don, who had gone to college, had children, got married twice, became a decent man, if you will, even though he was a stupid hormonal teenager, he was the one that ended up suing me. And that's what's so crazy. And so you know how the court systems work. It's such a long process. So I get sued January 2022. I am having all these traumatic moments. I will tell you the two years from getting sued to being on that stand were pure hell. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. ⁓ I it was. Yeah, it had to be. It's a complete all hell because you're having to relive these things, you know, and then you're this is being exposed to everybody and you're having to go back and relive this thing in front of people, you know, and it was hard. I guarantee it was hard to see, you know, because you're having to tell this story in front of all these people. Some people, you know, if there was a jury present, all these people that are on the panel, you know, you're having to tell individuals that you never thought you'd have to tell this story about, though. Darlene Lekowski: Mm-hmm. Pete "mental Health Champ": about what he did to you and then for him to stand there and act like he didn't do anything wrong is just it's just completely crazy. I would think he's probably got narcissistic personality disorder honestly the way he acts maybe a little bit but that's just maybe a possibility just the way he just doesn't think he did anything you know because a lot of them act like that when you know and stuff like that but without being being diagnosed you never know because a lot of them don't like therapy. Darlene Lekowski: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": You know, and for David's sake, I feel like lot of his things are probably coming from that too, because he realized how bad he was. He felt so bad. had remorse about it. So maybe his addiction was that was the reason for that, though, is that he felt so bad. He was battling those demons. Oh, my God, it did this to her, you know, and she hasn't said anything to anybody. And he just lived with that guilt that all that time, you know, because we know that a lot of people that, you know, drugs are usually the way they deal with a lot of these things. So they drink alcohol, you know, and when you start mixing all them together, it never ends well. You know, and I kind of feel like that's David's story a little bit. It's like probably he dealt with that shame for so long. But hats off for him to admitting that he did wrong, though. mean, yeah, he did something wrong. But it's hard to admit that you did this to somebody. You stole your sister's innocence. This is supposed to be your blood. And we're always taught that blood's stronger than water. And sometimes that's not the case. That's the scary part about it all. Darlene Lekowski: Right. Mm-hmm. Right, Yeah, yeah. And you know, I commend David for apologizing. Let me just say that, okay? So I'm like, okay, and then he ended up having like a massive stroke and a heart attack at the same time. But here's the problem with David. As soon as David heard it was public, he recanted everything and started calling me all kinds of names. And I'm like, you know what? Fine. Fine, fine, fine. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, I do too. I really do. I really do. No, I agree. ⁓ no. Darlene Lekowski: That's you, you can just be with Don. And I honestly think, I don't know about Don and his narcissistic personality. What I do know is I think that over 50 years, somehow he's been able to convince his brain that he's done nothing wrong. And he even like holds on a pedestal. ⁓ I passed a lie detector test. Of course I didn't do it. And I'm kind of like, well, I passed a lie detector test too. That's why they don't allow them in courts. But that's how he has convinced himself so much that he's innocent and did nothing wrong, which is disgusting. And then Don, and you have to excuse my family, we're all 1960s children and we're all Ds. So my brother closest to me, Dale, Pete "mental Health Champ": Hmm. Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: David and Don kept trying to pull Dale in and saying, you know, she's the liar. She's psychotic. You know, come on our side. Well, you know what my brother Dale did? He said, no, I believe my sister. I believe the truth and I am going to stand by her every single day. And he has done that unwaveringly. And so many survivors of sibling abuse who come public as adults and the average is Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: They don't come public into their 50s like I did. They get shunned by the entire family. I am so fortunate that I have Dale. And that's, matters. He's my blood. The other two can just go away. I don't need them anymore. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's that's scary. That you know, you you get shunned by your own family members when you didn't do anything wrong. You're the victim in this situation, you know, and then to live with it for 50 years. Jesus, man, let's have a 50. God, those poor people, there's the things they go through. And you know, they look to everybody else look like something's wrong with them. And something is wrong with them. But they can't tell you because they're so ashamed of it. It's just Jesus, you know, so let's get into this. So like if if you for people out there that are going through this situation to try and help them before having to wait till 50. What do you think their best next option is to like, if they feel like they've been a victim, you know, where can they go? You know, obviously you're doing a lot of things with the other organizations and things like that. What are some of these organizations they can go to for some help like that? Because we don't want them to suffer till they're 50. I'd rather they get this thing handled now so they don't have to live a life of hell that you went through and everybody else, you know, goes through and things like that. Darlene Lekowski: Yeah, you're exactly right. I don't want a single little boy or little girl or even adult my age or anywhere in between to go through the pain and suffering that I did. I went through hell and back and I don't want anybody else to go through it. And so if you go to my website, it's Darlene-Likowski.com, there's a tab called resources and there's resources in there for Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Darlene Lekowski: survivors of sibling sexual trauma and abuse and the organizations that I volunteer for. So there's Five Waves, which is a huge global organization specifically for SSTA. And it not only helps survivors like me, but also families dealing with this. I mean, you've got one child who is the perpetrator, the other child who is the survivor. How do you deal with that as a parent? And they also help Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: The people like my brother David, like these people, these perpetrators also need help because something's wrong. That's not normal by attacking your other sister. You know what I mean? But there's also, yeah, there's also organizations. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, I agree. We're not, I'm not trying to demonize David's actions, but he needs help at the end of the day. He needs help himself. like, you know, I understand he did horrible things, but I'm not here to demonize David and what David did was not right. Of course. Yes, I get that. But he's also sick as well. So he needs help too. So, you know, people listening to understand is that we're not trying to demonize him. Yes, he did these horrible things. He doesn't agree. He did them. But at the end of the day, David, something's wrong with David for him to think that that's okay. And he didn't do anything wrong, you know, that we can't sit here and, make him, make him the devil because he wasn't really something, something may be wrong that we didn't know that from David, you know, that may have caused this for him not to think that he did anything wrong. You know, I mean, we, we need to understand that from this point of spews that the whole point is Darlene's not here trying to demonize him. She's just trying to bring awareness to these things that you're not alone out there. Like, you know, everybody deals with something and this, this, especially this issue here that doesn't come up a lot, which, you know, hats off to Darlene for coming and talking to us about this because A lot of people are not comfortable having this conversation. know, and that's the great thing about this studio is that the safe space that we create here is that for people, you know, could come in and have these kinds of conversations because we've had some wild conversations this past season. We had one girl say that she was sexually assaulted and then people turn on and we're making fun of her. And in the episode I turned to the camera for two minutes, I get so pissed. like, Oh, you want to go bully somebody? Come bully me then. Because why are you going to pick on her? Darlene Lekowski: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": for doing for something she didn't choose to happen. Yeah, she decided she wanted to be touched and appropriately. And now she had to deal with these horrific things that she deals with all her life. Darlene didn't ask for that either. She didn't want to go through all the years of hell she went through and dealing with all these situations. You know, it's like people think that they just choose these things. Oh, well, know, they blame the victims and say it's your fault. Your fault for what? You know, the whole argument will come up with, oh, but the way they dress. That doesn't mean anything. That doesn't give me. You know what mean? That's the one that pisses me out the most. It's like when you blame somebody for the way they dress, I'm like. Darlene Lekowski: Mm-mm. ⁓ my gosh, yeah. Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": ⁓ No, that's like it's called being an adult and being acting like a man now little boy You know like just because somebody dresses somebody doesn't mean you would need to treat them a certain way That's just ridiculous. You know I mean, it's just I I never understood that to me But you know like but yeah in the episode she she came out and said that and I got mad I was like really someone's insulting you over this. I was like, ⁓ hell no, I got mad So you hear me like getting pissed at the camera and I'm going on for five minutes. She's like, well, thanks She know what to say Yeah Darlene Lekowski: I Well, we're all going to have our haters, right? I mean, I've had people go, you know, you won. Oh, by the way, I didn't even tell your listeners. We go two years to the trial and January 24th, 2024, I finally on trial. It's five days long. And on February 5th, 2024. A jury of 12 in less than an hour review both cases because Don sued me and I counter sued him for defamation as well. I won both cases. So, and that's very uncommon for survivors to win. And that's part of my cause too. Like I'm out $150,000. Yes, I won money in the trial. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Yeah, that's good though. Darlene Lekowski: It's two years later. Have I seen a dime of that money? No, because now he's going to claim bankruptcy. He's going to do this and that. And I'm like, I should have never had to spend this money. But I did. And I think that's part of the advocacy work that I want to do as well. It's start passing laws of, you look at the Epstein files, you look at what P Diddy tried to do to his victims. And it's like, Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Darlene Lekowski: they try to bury us with court cases and court fees. And I think that's part of what has to change in society as well. But, you know, to go back to what do survivors need to do, go to the website, there's the SSTA resources, but I also have resources for other abuse survivors. It doesn't have to be sibling, because I think number one is share your story, get it out of the box. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: Tell somebody. You don't have to go as public as I have or even write a journal. Start writing it down. I'm telling you, if I hadn't told those seven girlfriends, I don't know if I would have won my court case because five of the seven girlfriends testified in the trial for me. I mean, that was amazing. I mean, my girlfriend saved my life, you know, and you know, reframe the narrative. Like we talked about, shed yourself of the shame. Pete "mental Health Champ": awesome. Darlene Lekowski: ⁓ you know, the other thing that I really realized is after the trial, thought the trial would heal me. won. Yay. I won the trial. I'm healed. Well, that's not how trauma works. Winning a trial doesn't heal a thing. You know, I was so pissed off to your point. I was so angry, so bitter, but then I realized, ⁓ my God, I have been focused on my brother and him for two years. reliving all my trauma that I had to look within and reframe the narrative and go, why am I focused on him anymore? I don't care about him. I shed myself of all of the anger and the bitterness and the resentment because that doesn't do me any good. And until I was able to release the shame and the anger, once I did that, I was able to set myself free and I found Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Darlene Lekowski: what true love means. I don't have to be in control. I don't have to be perfect. I don't I can chill out. And it wasn't until I let go of all my trauma that I've been able to be a completely different person than I was even two years ago, Pete. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it's awesome though. I mean, it's great. You found love, you found somebody supportive, you found the husband, you have the kids that support you as well. You're writing the book, you're doing all these amazing things. You're being a speaker, you're an author, you're doing all these things for these people out there. And you have all the resources listed. And it's great though, because like we said, this is a sensitive subject for a lot of people, know? And like you said, tell somebody the story about it, you know? You don't have to call on this show and do it. There's other ways. Just tell somebody about it, you know? I just offered the opportunity to Darlene because it came up. It's something I want to get the stories out there for people. I want people to understand that these things happen, that you're not alone. That's the whole idea behind this show is just mental health. All these different things fall in that same category. We need to talk more about these things and stop demonizing people for these things and make them feel like they're inadequate people because this happened to them. That's not their fault. They didn't choose these things. Trauma happens to lot of us, but you don't have to go alone anymore. Darlene Lekowski: Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. And when I first started going public, I literally had someone say to me, are you sure you want to be known as the woman that that happened to? And that to me was just like, are you kidding me? I can't believe you just asked me that. And I was like, yes, I want to be known as that. Because the more I talk about it, the more I heal. even if I help one other person through this conversation with you, I've won. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Mia Mason: you are not only one ⁓ that experiences ⁓ thoughts, Pete "mental Health Champ": Exactly. 100 % a correct statement, you know, and things like that too. And we can, we can avoid, know, people committing suicide doing these things too, because I'm looking at some of the rates here really quick guys to go a little dark on y'all. I'm sorry, but I wanted to bring this up though. It says about 14,000 suicides happen annually and this is sexual assault victims. Okay. 23 daily. The second, it's the second leading cause of death amongst youth ages 15 to 29. Well, Dr. Erica, before we start wrapping up, I'm going to ask you That number is still too high. I don't care. Oh, it's only 14,000. I don't care. That's way too many. And then it goes on to say the demographics, are account for 80%, four to five times higher than women. Amongst the first year university students reported suicidal thoughts, 30 % of them were in the first past year. It's crazy. These statistics are insane. You know, just because, you know, Darlene Lekowski: Agreed. Pete: Well, Keith, we're at the part of the interview where I'm gonna ask you those two questions. All right, Pete "mental Health Champ": It happens. These people deal with these things. Some people can't make it, won't make it as far as Darlene did because they unfortunately just can't deal with the demons they're dealing with. And that's why she's doing what she's doing and what I'm doing because I'm like, we need to get this number down. It's crazy. Fourteen thousand still too many, especially in that age range. That's way too young to be losing people to something like that that they didn't even ask for them to happen to them that, you know, some evil entity did this to them, you know, and now they're having to deal with the weight of it, you know, and people like Darlene are out here now. giving you guys a way to try and get some help so we can reduce that number. So hats off to you Darlene, like I said, between the book and everything else you're doing, I really appreciate everything you're doing. This is a very sensitive subject, but I love it. I think that you're making a real strong statement. And you know, especially you have daughters too. They're seeing you go out and do these things as well, you know, and they're seeing what mom's doing out there and they're very supportive as well. So that's really awesome to see that everybody's been behind you. Darlene Lekowski: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. I am so fortunate of all the family and the friends and even if some of your listeners, if you are not a survivor, help a survivor become an advocate like you are Pete, know, help someone through this because like I said, my girlfriends saved my life. And I tell you, if I didn't have them, you know, I don't know if I, if I would have gone as far as I have. The other thing that I think is so important for listeners too is Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Exactly. Darlene Lekowski: I'm not necessarily religious, but I am spiritual. I think one of the things that helped me get through from being a very, very young girl is your spirit. Nobody can touch who you are within. They can touch your body, they can steal your innocence, but no one can touch your soul unless you let them. So never let them touch who you really are. That is so important. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. So Darlene, before we start wrapping up this episode, I'm going to ask you two questions, And these are, the first one's kind of a fun question, know, bring it, you know, because I'm curious to know you answer this one, all right? So the question to you is, is if your mental health had a song, okay, what would you say that song would be? Darlene Lekowski: Okay. ⁓ my goodness. Well, it's interesting that you ask me this, because if you go on my website under resources, I list all the songs that helped me through my trauma. So I thought, I think that's interesting. But I would say, ⁓ you know the song by Post Malone and Ozzy Osbourne, Take What You Want From Me? That to me is like, take what you want, shed myself of all of the crap, all of the shame. Pete "mental Health Champ": This is a really fun one. Like lot of people's answers are very interesting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love it. Darlene Lekowski: Take what you want from me, but I'm done and I'm only going to keep within me what I need to be whole, what I need to be fulfilled and everybody else can just do your thing, but I don't need it anymore. Pete "mental Health Champ": Love it. Absolutely. And Darlene, the last question for you and the main reason this podcast exists is that if you could break the stigma about mental health. Now, what I'm asking you is that something that you hear on a regular basis that you want people to stop believing. What would you say that one thing would be? Darlene Lekowski: Thank you. I think. For survivors, I think, and I've said it multiple times, that the shame is not ours to carry. I think that for your mental health, for your wellbeing, do not take on the shame. Also, don't ever stop healing. I've been in therapy for 30 years now, and I keep moving to different modalities, so never give up on yourself. Pete "mental Health Champ": I absolutely love it. Darlene, thank you so much for coming. Before we start closing out this episode, do want to let everybody know where they can find you? Guys, I will have all these links in the description of this episode, obviously, for you as well. That way, when Darlene's listed them off, we can make sure you guys have a way to get to them as well. Darlene Lekowski: Sure. So I mentioned my website, Darlene-Likowski.com. I'm also on Instagram at Darlene Likowski. I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook, same first and last name. And you can buy my book that's behind me, Shattering Silence, anywhere you buy your books online, but it's primarily sold on Amazon in hardcover paperback, ebook, and audio book in my own voice. Thank you. Pete "mental Health Champ": That's awesome. Well, darling, thank you so much for coming to hang out with us, guys. And with that being said, guys, we're to wrap up this episode of Pete First Anxiety. You know what to find me on Pete First Anxiety on X all the way down to TikTok. I'm on Spotify all the way down to Pandora Radio. And as I always say, costs nothing, absolutely nothing to be kind to somebody. One kind act you could do could save someone's life or hell, can make their day. I'm Pete First Anxiety signing off saying, don't ask how your day is today. Say, hey, how's your mental health?