Latest / Best of Business / Duane Leo: PSA spokesperson on the IRD considering cutting jobs amid shrinking budget

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Duane Leo: PSA spokesperson on the IRD considering cutting jobs amid shrinking budget · Best of Business

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
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  Speaker 2: IRD may have to cut jobs to reduce costs by
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  Speaker 2: the looks of things. An intranet message has gone out
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  Speaker 2: to IRD staff informing them that 20% of them will
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  Speaker 2: have to go by 2029, so in around about three years' time.
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  Speaker 2: Duane Leo is the Public Service Association National Secretary and
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  Speaker 2: is with us. Hi, Duane.
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  Speaker 3: Hi, good afternoon.
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  Speaker 2: How are the staff feeling?
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  Speaker 4: Oh, well, as you can imagine, many of them are
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  Speaker 4: feeling morale is extremely low. Many members are feeling fatigued
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  Speaker 4: and frustrated. And this is after a prolonged period under
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  Speaker 4: this government of change that continues to give them uncertain
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  Speaker 4: futures and a real worry for them. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: How many staff will have to go?
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  Speaker 4: 20%.
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  Speaker 2: How much is that?
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  Speaker 4: Well, we're talking about 20% in baseline funding. So in
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  Speaker 4: terms of what that means, staff numbers, we don't know.
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  Speaker 4: All they've said in terms of that messaging is that
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  Speaker 4: there will have to be a reduction in numbers. And
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  Speaker 4: that's a real concern because there's no evidence that this
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  Speaker 4: is anything more than a cost-cutting exercise. And the real
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  Speaker 4: concern here is you're talking about 20% of baseline funding.
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  Speaker 4: That's going to have a significant impact on the services
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  Speaker 4: and the work that IRD does and the members do.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Are they just going to be replaced by AI, do
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  Speaker 2: you think?
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  Speaker 4: Well, I mean that, look, in terms of the announcements
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  Speaker 4: made earlier this year with the budget, that's extremely concerning
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  Speaker 4: because from an AI perspective, don't get us wrong, we're
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  Speaker 4: all about improving the work, improving the tools and efficiencies,
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  Speaker 4: but we're not supportive at all of them simply using
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  Speaker 4: AI to get.
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  Speaker 3: Rid of staff.
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  Speaker 1: Why not?
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  Speaker 4: And that's the real concern here. Well, in terms of
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  Speaker 4: the services that they provide, in terms of the decisions
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  Speaker 4: that have been made, none of this has been worked through.
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  Speaker 4: We've had no information, no detail, and this is going
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  Speaker 4: back to the budget announcement earlier in the year. We're
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  Speaker 4: going to get rid of 9,000 public service workers. How
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  Speaker 4: are you going to do that? What does that mean?
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  Speaker 4: What services are going to be impacted? All of this
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  Speaker 4: is just conjecture at the moment, and that's one of
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  Speaker 4: our real concerns.
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  Speaker 2: Why can't they get rid of staff and replace them
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  Speaker 2: with AI? Why can't they do that?
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  Speaker 3: They should do that. Well, I go back.
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  Speaker 4: It's about efficiencies. We've got no problem with us finding efficiencies.
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  Speaker 4: New Zealanders want an efficient public service. But let's be clear,
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  Speaker 4: we also want services that work. So before cutting jobs.
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  Speaker 2: Hang on, that's not what I'm asking. You just said
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  Speaker 2: to me, on principle, you do not think that people
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  Speaker 2: should be fired and replaced with AI, and I'm asking
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  Speaker 2: you why. Why not?
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  Speaker 4: So in terms of that, because it's the work they do,
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  Speaker 4: there's been nothing around the world, nothing that we've seen
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  Speaker 4: that shows that AI can comprehensively and transparently replace workers
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  Speaker 4: in terms of the services that.
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  Speaker 2: They provide you don't need any evidence mate look at
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  Speaker 2: it like you can get well no typing in numbers
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  Speaker 2: anymore you can do all of it right it will
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  Speaker 2: speed things up especially at a numbers agency like IRD.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so Heather, in terms of tools and ways in
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  Speaker 4: which they do the work, the value add there, we're
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  Speaker 4: not against that.
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  Speaker 3: It's against simply saying that we're going to get rid
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  Speaker 3: of 9,000 workers.
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  Speaker 4: How do you quantify that? How do you understand? How
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  Speaker 4: do you get an understanding that by doing this, we
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  Speaker 4: can get rid of all these workers? It's not been proven.
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  Speaker 4: It's not been established.
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  Speaker 2: You're talking about that press release Nicholas sent out ages ago.
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  Speaker 3: Well, no, it wasn't.
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  Speaker 4: It was one of their headlines in terms of the
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  Speaker 4: budget that happened this year.
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  Speaker 3: No, that was weird.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not going to fight with you about that.
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  Speaker 2: That was weird. I know that you just said to me, though,
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  Speaker 2: that morale is low with all the cost-cutting under this government.
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  Speaker 2: You did just say that, like this government is cutting costs. Correct, correct.
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  Speaker 2: You do realise it's going to be worse under Labour?
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  Speaker 3: Well, no, I don't.
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  Speaker 2: Do you want me to tell you why that is? Oh,
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  Speaker 2: you don't accept that? Have you seen what their fiscal
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  Speaker 2: plan says?
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  Speaker 4: No, I.
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  Speaker 3: I have, but in terms of the process.
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  Speaker 2: Have you, Dwayne, have you looked at the cost cutting
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  Speaker 2: that is required under Labour's fiscal plan to get them
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  Speaker 2: down to 30.4% of core spending as a percentage of GDP?
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  Speaker 2: That makes this government look bloated, mate. That is austerity.
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  Speaker 4: Well, Heather, in terms of the way in which it
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  Speaker 4: transpires and the process in which they go about it,
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  Speaker 4: we have had a government for the last three years
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  Speaker 4: that is simply coming up with arbitrary figures and seeking
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  Speaker 4: to make those savings. So we've got agencies that have
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  Speaker 4: been returning, they've had cuts in their costs consistently for
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  Speaker 4: the last three years.
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  Speaker 2: You're about to find out what it's like under Labour, bro.
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  Speaker 2: It's going to get worse.
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  Speaker 4: Well, from our perspective, we're clear that in terms of
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  Speaker 4: any cuts that happen, if they're not around efficiencies, if
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  Speaker 4: they're actually going to make services worse off for New
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  Speaker 4: Zealanders and delivery harder, then we will oppose them.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, we're not one side or another.
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  Speaker 4: Here, Heather.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, that's news to me. Well, no, we're not. Well, Heather,
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  Speaker 3: we're not affiliated to any political party. Bro, what are
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  Speaker 3: you talking about?
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  Speaker 2: You're the PSA.
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  Speaker 3: We are advocating. What are you talking about?
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  Speaker 2: You've been handing out leaflets saying change the government. Don't
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  Speaker 2: tell me you haven't picked a side here.
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  Speaker 4: No, Heather, Heather, you're exactly right there. And the reason
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  Speaker 4: why we've been handing out those pamphlets is because for
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  Speaker 4: the last three years, This government has become a clear
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  Speaker 4: and present danger to working New Zealand.
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  Speaker 2: All I'm saying is, if your mates in Labour are
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  Speaker 2: to be believed on what they're doing with their fiscal plan,
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  Speaker 2: you haven't even seen the half of it yet.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, mates aside, if you want to call
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  Speaker 4: them that, from our perspective, we deal with any government
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  Speaker 4: that's in play. And at the moment, the damage that
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  Speaker 4: this government has done, the legislative changes they've done, the
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  Speaker 4: cuts to important public services that they have, the pay equity,
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  Speaker 4: I could go on and on. That is a clear
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  Speaker 4: and present danger to working New Zealanders, Heather. And as
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  Speaker 4: a result of that, yes, we are running a change
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  Speaker 4: the government campaign.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, change the government to people who are going to
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  Speaker 2: cut even harder. Duane, thanks, mate. Appreciate it. Good luck
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  Speaker 2: with everything. Duane Leo, Public Service Association National Secretary.
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