Latest / UK Column Radio / China's Poetic Soul & Economic Miracle: An Unlikely Pairing | Silk & Steel Podcast

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China's Poetic Soul & Economic Miracle: An Unlikely Pairing | Silk & Steel Podcast · UK Column Radio

0:07
Well, first, I'd like to welcome you, Professor Grillan, to my
0:12
show. I'm Carl Zad, the host to the
0:14
Silk and Steel podcast, and I focus primarily on China
0:18
history, culture and politics. And Grillan here is a synologist
0:24
with lots of experience working in China.
0:28
So I I have heard a lot about you from our mutual friend
0:32
Marcel and I have just find out about your new book, which is
0:37
all about Chi ancient Chinese poetry.
0:40
So my question for you first of all is how did you get
0:45
interested in China and Chinese culture?
0:49
Completely by chance, you see, when I was in secondary school,
0:54
they opened the Chinese course. It was in 1967, maybe at the
1:00
time, you see, people were quite considered to, to learn Chinese,
1:09
while a little bit crazy thing you see, and but I was attracted
1:15
by, you see, to discover a language and a civilization
1:20
which was with no point of comparison with Europe, because
1:28
when you go to the States, to Latin America or elsewhere, you
1:33
got even to India, you you have comparisons.
1:39
But in China it was another human experience to discover.
1:45
And so I was attracted and I was attracted by the characters.
1:50
When I began to, to study Chinese, you see, I saw the
1:55
aesthetics of of the characters and I was quite interested by
2:00
calligraphy, by talking, etcetera, and also by the
2:05
civilization of China, which was great.
2:09
You see, history and, and when I was after that, when I chose,
2:18
when I finished my secondary school and I went to the
2:21
university, I jumped to the second year in Chinese, you see,
2:28
because I, I had already studied Chinese and in the same time, so
2:36
I specialised in the way in China for three years.
2:43
I had my master's degree. Then I went to Hong Kong to
2:46
teach French in Hong Kong and I was staying also at New Asia
2:52
College with a lot of Chinese intellectuals at the time.
2:58
It was a very stimulating environment.
3:02
I was also in the university service centre, which was a good
3:08
place to to study Chinese modern history with a lot of
3:15
newspapers, people coming, always coming from China with
3:20
whom we had exchanges. So it was a very nice
3:24
opportunity. Then I travelled when I was
3:27
going to Hong Kong and when I was coming back I travelled to
3:32
Indonesia. I travelled to all these places,
3:36
to Malaysia and to Thailand, and I went back.
3:42
So I want to ask you about your travel to Indonesia because I
3:45
have yeah, personal ties to Indonesia.
3:48
I'm wearing a Indonesian boutique shirt.
3:51
I have settled in Bali. My wife is Balines.
3:54
You are obviously a very adventurous soul because in the
3:58
1975 Indonesia is definitely off the tourist beaten track for the
4:04
tourism I imagine. In 1975, you see, you had some
4:11
tourist spots which were of course Bali was already
4:17
deserved, but you can go, you could go to places in Bali and
4:22
it was not so, so well developed as today.
4:26
You see, I guess I haven't been in Bali for maybe 30 years, so.
4:33
It's. Horrible now.
4:34
It's different. It's quite different, yeah, but
4:38
at the time it was quite cool, you see, to to stay in Bali,
4:42
Yuku, you and then also the Lombok and Sumbawar were
4:49
completely wild places. Yes, I remember I went to the
4:53
northern part of Lombok. It was completely wild, you see.
4:59
It's So you came to study China and Chinese during the Cold War,
5:07
and for much of the Cold War, the mainland China wasn't really
5:10
accessible. You know, China hasn't opened up
5:13
yet. So how did you go about it?
5:16
You know, at that I'm kind of learning China from a distance.
5:22
Well, it was an opportunity to be in Hong Kong was a good spot,
5:27
you see, to, to, to see China from the outside because you
5:33
could meet people and speak very freely about China.
5:37
And at the time I met a lot of expert guards who were from my
5:43
generation, you see. So we had a lot of talks and I
5:48
was reading a lot about the Chinese modern history because I
5:53
was doing a thesis on Yin and on the literary debate and you see
6:02
the rise of Mao in Yenan, etcetera.
6:06
So I was, it was a preparation and when I went to China, it's
6:12
for the first time, it was in 79 and I spent three months in
6:20
Beijing and all around China, going down to to Hong Kong,
6:26
Canton, Hong Kong. And it was a nice experience.
6:30
Of course, I met a lot of people and I went back after that, you
6:35
see, either for study for missions of during my PhD or
6:44
after my PhD, or for as a tour guide, you see.
6:52
So that was an opportunity to travel anywhere.
6:57
You're probably one of the first foreigners, Westerners who have
7:02
travelled to China after China opened up in 79.
7:05
That was pretty early on. And I remember you mentioned you
7:09
actually travelled to Xinjiang in the early 1980s and, and
7:14
this, that must be a very different place back then
7:17
because I, I, I, I watched the Japanese NHK documentary on Silk
7:23
Road, which was filmed in Xinjiang in front of the same
7:27
period. You went like 9/19/79 Nineteen
7:30
80s and it looks so different. Yeah, I guess it was not a
7:36
touristic organisation at the time.
7:40
You see, we just stopped whenever we want.
7:44
You see, we had a, we had a bus and I was seeing the fault
7:51
sometime one day and I say to the driver, can we stop here?
7:56
We stopped and we it was a fault build during the chin times, but
8:03
we went all around and I fall on the tomb which was opened with
8:13
you see rest of man which who was buried.
8:19
Oh wow. Buried there, you see.
8:21
So then I told the local museum, you see, to, to to look for that
8:29
because it was the tomb was stolen.
8:35
You see this kind of thing you, you could see at the time, you
8:39
see, because it was completely, I mean, there was nobody, just
8:47
local people, Yeah. Today Zhopal will be a big
8:51
tourist site with people selling souvenirs.
8:55
And it was near Ji Yuguan. You see the and Ji Yuguan, I
8:59
remember it was. I took a lot of photographs at
9:03
the time. It was a nice place to go.
9:07
Yeah. So how did you get interested in
9:10
then in Chinese poetry? Well, that's very simple.
9:16
I've been writing poetry myself for the last 40 years.
9:22
So I was fascinated also by Chinese classical and also
9:29
modern poetry. And because the modern poetry is
9:35
also influenced by the classical poetry, you see this, the
9:41
strengths of images, you see the, the, the characters, the, I
9:50
mean, the Chinese characters are the same, of course.
9:53
And they're also. And so I had been reading a lot
10:02
of Chinese classical poetry since the 80s.
10:09
And after that, once I decided to reconcile, you see my, my
10:20
interest with writing poetry with Chinese classical poetry.
10:25
So I began to, to collaborate. I met specialist of the town
10:35
poetry in Shanghai. His name is Sun Qing an and I am
10:44
just met him in. He was in the Shanghai Academy
10:48
of Social Sciences. He was leading the Chinese
10:54
Institute, Chinese Classical literary, Chinese Literary
11:01
Institute. And I told him about this
11:05
project just to present, you see, the most well known poems.
11:10
And he said, oh, that's a good idea.
11:13
He reacted very quickly. And then we we had the
11:20
opportunity to work for four years together.
11:24
Each time I went to China, he was travelling with me, you see.
11:30
At the time that was had credit from a big institute in, in
11:38
France. So there was no problem, no
11:41
financial problem to go to China as it was just a question of
11:45
time, you see. So we went together to, to see
11:50
all the places where poets, classical poets were, had lived.
11:57
You see, Lebai, Tufu, Tsu, temple, all.
12:03
We went to all their places, to a lot of places.
12:07
We went to Hubei for one month, we went to Sichuan for
12:12
practically one month. We went to Zhejiang, we went to
12:16
Anhui, to a lot of places together by bus, by all means of
12:26
communications and we interviewed a lot of people who
12:31
were local specialist of this poets.
12:36
So we had first, and I mean we had a, a ground, you see, a
12:45
field work, we had a field work. And besides, I was advised by
12:52
something and of course about all what was produced, you see,
12:57
in Chinese the best production of the poet of the poets, the
13:03
best studies of the poets are in Chinese.
13:09
And so I used this material, of course, and I also used the
13:17
foreign studies you see, like Stephen Owen or French, English,
13:23
American studies in China. And I made a kind of synthesis
13:29
of all these things to approach each poet with a new vision.
13:37
I think in this, in this book, it's a new vision of poetry
13:42
which is not not the common vision of this.
13:48
So that's how this book came about, yes.
13:51
And this book came about, yes. Can you tell us a little bit
13:55
about, you know, for, for the readers who who might not know
13:58
what, what is this book is about?
14:00
Is it just about introduction to Chinese poetry or?
14:04
Yes, it's about first you have the Chinese text of the most
14:10
well known poems, translation in French, which is real poetry.
14:19
I think most of the translations are good in French, but they are
14:23
not poems and I have written poems.
14:28
Just the translation tries to give the idea of the poetic
14:39
effects. As a Chinese reader, you see,
14:43
you can feel, you see emotion or deepness of a text or beauty of
14:49
a text and these three qualities.
14:53
So this is the first thing, the translation, translation.
14:58
But the main work, the main added value of this book,
15:04
because they are so, so many anthologies is the presentation
15:08
you see of the poems of the poets.
15:11
Because it took me 5 years to work on it, mainly on writing
15:19
with presentations, you see. Each time I was for studying Le
15:24
Bai or Du Fu, it was four months, five months of work, you
15:29
see. And there are 55 poets presented
15:35
here. So this not only covered the
15:37
poems, but you will cover a little bit about the poets who
15:40
wrote about them. Yes, it's a context of the text.
15:46
It's a kind of, you see history of China through the most well
15:54
known poets because I have put a kind of, I've made chronology.
16:01
You see, I've presented the poets in chronology in order to
16:05
follow the evolution mainly of the Tom and Sung dynasty.
16:10
So you can have also a living vision of the history of China
16:17
through poets. That's perfect.
16:20
That's kind of it's different from you see history, history
16:28
book, but in the same time it's history.
16:31
But I mean, it's history through personal, you see, through
16:38
living, yes, living persons living.
16:42
And also it has been I, I had the chance to have the agreement
16:48
of Yong Yong Liang. Yong Yong Liang is a famous
16:52
photographer with work. You can see from his studio,
16:58
he's working in the New York and Shanghai.
17:01
He teaches in the, the, the, I think in Fine Arts or
17:07
photography in Shanghai. And he has a very interesting
17:13
vision of photography because these photographs, you see, it's
17:19
a kind of a combination of the Song dynasty, Song dynasty
17:30
paintings like Fan Quan, Fan Quan.
17:33
And also you have a kind of all kinds of, you see, it's a kind
17:40
of critic of the modernist time. So it's, it's called artificial
17:47
Wonderland. You see this this picture and
17:50
it's, it's marvellous. So.
17:52
For I, I, I'm just noticing right now when Greenland pointed
17:57
out to me, I, you know, at first I thought it was just classical
18:00
Chinese landscape painting. But when I look closely, I see
18:05
these are actually photos of modern China because you have
18:11
like crane construction cranes everywhere.
18:13
There's a building in the, in the, in the midst of being
18:16
demolished and, and being rebuilt.
18:19
And so this is both the traditional and modern China
18:24
coming. Together.
18:25
And that leads me to another point of this book, which I've
18:29
also discovered through discussion with Sun Qingyang.
18:34
It is the first book where which introduce the way that Chinese
18:44
poems are used in the between Chinese people to interact.
18:52
I mean, when I want to to to interact with someone in some
19:00
some special occasion, I cite a poem, I can cite a poem.
19:08
So this habit was was present in some, of course, in the Chu Xiao
19:16
Long. Chu Xiao Long, you see novels
19:21
about people are are used to it in China, but in in foreign
19:30
countries, they don't understand how Chinese can use Chinese
19:33
poems, you see, to interact between themselves or you see.
19:41
So this is the use of poetry which maintains the poetical
19:48
tradition, you see. That's, that's fantastic.
19:51
That's fantastic. Because I, I currently, I'm on
19:55
my own podcast. I do a podcast about Chinese
19:58
history and I'm doing a chronological retelling of
20:01
Chinese history from the very beginning.
20:03
I covered to about 300 BC right now, and the period I just
20:09
covered, which is the Spring Autumn period, when there's a
20:11
lot of Chinese philosopher Confucius louds and drongs to
20:16
live. I'm basing a lot of my podcast
20:21
content on this Chinese narrative history called
20:24
Zuozron. And what struck me when I was
20:26
reading through Zuozron is that how just as you mentioned, these
20:31
Chinese elite, they have, they use poetry as a tool of
20:37
communication with each other and, and everybody just when
20:41
they recite a poem, they kind of instinctively understood what
20:45
the other guy meant by reciting that poem.
20:49
There. There was a a particular case
20:52
when a a a a Crown Prince who was in he's thinking he's in the
20:58
in danger of losing his position as a Crown Prince because he has
21:03
been exiled by his father to be a governor of a far flung
21:07
province. So he sent his envoy to his dad
21:11
to find out what his situation is.
21:14
So his the envoy obviously can't say it directly to the king.
21:20
You know what? What do you intend to do about
21:22
yourself? So instead he used poetry.
21:24
He was cite, cite the poetry about He said, oh, the he, he,
21:30
he said, oh, the when the father, when the king was asking
21:34
how his son is doing, he said, oh, he's studying poetry.
21:37
He said he should recite these poems all the time.
21:40
And the poem that he recited a poem about longing about, you
21:46
know, missing, missing, missing the family connection.
21:51
And then the, the father immediately understood what that
21:54
means. He said, OK, is his, my son not
21:56
happy about where he is? You know, did he have complaints
22:00
about me? And then he so he sent the envoy
22:04
back to his son with a box. His, he instructed, can only be
22:09
opened when he sees the Crown Prince.
22:12
So when the Crown Prince receives a gift from from his
22:14
father, he opened the box and it's just a bunch of clothes,
22:17
but in very disorderly, dishevelled fashion.
22:22
The envoy didn't understand. So like, I was very careful with
22:25
the gift, you know, I did not disturb the content of the box.
22:28
But the son immediately understood.
22:30
He said, well, well, there was a poem in the there was a poem
22:33
from the Book of Songs that says that's official was, you know,
22:39
he woke up hurriedly put on his clothes out out of totally out
22:45
of order. It's because he need to rush to
22:47
the court to pay homage to his sovereign.
22:49
This is actually my dad is telling me to come home.
22:53
So all this message was sent without explicitation of
22:58
anything. This is exactly the first
23:02
chapter of the book is on the shooting book of Odds and
23:10
Eyesight. You see examples of this use of
23:14
poems between Chinese diplomats of the time or Chinese
23:19
sovereigns, Yes, but that was so poetry for me.
23:30
Kind of also way of life also. That's not only writing, you see
23:38
way to to look at things and to to live things.
23:44
I live in the countryside actually, so I'm not far from
23:50
the Chinese tradition of. Hermit, hermit philosopher.
23:57
So you, you must have, I mean you, you have experienced the
24:01
full breath of China for the last 40-50 years.
24:08
You know, the, the, the China that you have study, you learn
24:12
and travel through must have changed a lot.
24:15
How did that affect your perception of China, if any?
24:21
Well, at the beginning of the 80s, I was quite doubtful about
24:32
Chinese reforms. And after 1984, when China open,
24:43
really open to you see, the, I mean, the foreign capital,
24:50
foreign technology, I was, I began to, to work, you see, on
24:57
the, with foreign companies and also with experts, foreign
25:05
experts in China. And I had another vision of the
25:09
things because at the time I was studying, you see, I was doing
25:15
another PhD on economics. You see, I was studying
25:19
economics in the French Institute.
25:22
And I begun fascinated more and more fascinated with Chinese
25:28
reforms. And for maybe 30 years, I, I've,
25:33
you see, I've can, I've two interests, economy and poetry.
25:41
That's not, that's not necessarily, you see,
25:47
incompatible. But I was fascinated by the
25:55
rhythm of, of Chinese economic reform, the pragmatism of the
25:59
reforms. Of course we had this 1989
26:04
protest movement, but I had written, you see at the time,
26:09
you see, just before the movement began, I made a long
26:14
article. I remember in Le Monde, the
26:16
diplomatic who said I was there was inflation and corruption.
26:25
At the time you see 808889, I was coming back from China and I
26:33
made an article on saying inflation and corruption comes
26:38
from, you see have a lot to are linked with the allocation of
26:48
resources with distortion in the allocation of resources.
26:53
And and finally to political question now which is raised and
27:01
they might be a kind of political risk answer to it.
27:06
It was before you see this movement and then the movement
27:12
happened and I came back in to China in 92 maybe after a few
27:19
years, I came back to study. You see, at the time the, you
27:28
see, I was studying in the kind of the border trade with border
27:38
trade, Chinese border trade with, I took the example of
27:43
Burma and I discovered at the time you see the intensity of
27:49
the traffic, you see the, the drug traffic.
27:55
And I met a few friends who were working on the on the traffic,
28:02
drug traffic at the world level. And I made some studies on the
28:06
drug trafficking with the United Nations.
28:09
And under our United Nation programme, we had field study on
28:19
India, China, Mexico and Brazil. You see, it was a big project
28:29
and when we had finished this project, we would come back to
28:33
China and presented a result with the Academy of Institute of
28:42
World Economics and Politics at the Academy of Social Sciences.
28:48
So it, but I mean, this was field study on on the this
28:57
aspect. But mainly you see, I was for, I
29:02
was fascinated each time I was coming to China by the
29:07
difference you seen six months, it was quite, there was
29:10
something new, you see. Six months after there was
29:13
something new which was completely changing, changing
29:17
all the time too quickly maybe you see, because people like not
29:23
the time to adapt themselves to such.
29:26
You see a huge, huge transformation.
29:30
But after that, in the after 22,000 and ten, I began to work
29:40
on Chinese innovation policy because I was seeing that
29:46
innovation was a key you see to the the development.
29:51
You see, China has had already begun the world factory, but now
29:56
the next stage was to to change its economy from you see grows,
30:04
etcetera to innovation. Innovation LED growth and I
30:10
worked a lot on innovation and I made a few articles on this
30:15
field and I I had a very different position from the the
30:23
other economist who were criticising China at the time,
30:27
saying that China was just copying.
30:30
You see, I've met no breakthrough innovation.
30:34
I was saying, but it's not the question, you see, who invented
30:41
the movie? The aviation industry and the
30:46
car industry, the French and the British at the end of the 19th
30:52
century and the beginning of the 20th century, who developed
30:57
these industries? United States 20 years later,
31:03
because it had such a big market that it could, you see, develop,
31:11
organise, you see. So I was seeing China, you see
31:16
at the time as you see the Chinese market as a way of kind
31:23
of with education, you see a good education background which
31:29
began at the beginning of the 2000 as you all know, you see
31:35
there was a huge development of higher education in China since
31:40
25 years. And as a key you see to this
31:46
innovation policy and to this development.
31:49
And now and the last study was about artificial intelligence.
31:56
So, and the key you see, but I was also using you see other
32:06
historical examples to show that it's not the question who makes
32:12
the breakthrough innovation. You see, that's not the problem.
32:16
I was seeing who during the Italian Renaissance.
32:21
Italian Renaissance was at the 14th century, at the end of the
32:26
14th century, the beginning of the 15th century, Quattrocento
32:33
14th century, beginning of the 15th century, between the 1470
32:48
to to 1550. But so Italy was the heart of
32:58
innovation in science and in the heart.
33:03
Why? Because the people at the time
33:06
were educated in the same time in science and in art, you see,
33:12
Leonardo da Vinci was a painter, but also he was also an
33:17
engineer. Michelangelo was an architect, a
33:22
sculptor and a painter, see, in the same time.
33:26
So there was this combination of people who led to this education
33:33
background relate to strong innovation, you see.
33:37
But who led the world in the 16th century?
33:44
Italy was not existing as a power.
33:48
It was transferred to Spain and Portugal, which divided the
33:54
whole world because they used the people you see coming from
34:00
Italy, like the navigators, like Columbus, etcetera. 22 to to
34:10
lead the float, to lead the, the boats you see to navigate
34:16
through the world and to discover.
34:18
So the situation, it's a flow of people, which is a key according
34:26
to my to my analysis. And now it's reversing to China,
34:31
I guess because of you see this reaction of this anti science,
34:40
anti science point of view of Trump and all this conservative
34:48
background in the US. You, you are early, you are very
34:56
early. Your analysis about both Chinese
35:00
innovation and the way how the the progress is being
35:04
transferred from different region of the world.
35:06
I think it's because it's rare for people with your breadth of
35:11
knowledge, you know, across history, economics and poetry.
35:16
And, and to put all that together.
35:18
I mean, I'm, I'm very impressed because I'm only coming to
35:21
realise what you said about how the market dominance in the
35:27
application of technology, you know, first from Europe to US
35:31
and now from US to China only maybe in the last few years, but
35:36
you did this back in 2010. So you're, you're, you're a
35:40
pioneer in I think. No, no, no, I've used also.
35:45
You see it's for among economists it's a well known
35:51
assertion that market size determines innovation.
35:57
You see the strongest of the strengths of innovation depends
36:03
from the market, you see. So it's not a personal
36:10
discovery, but I just wanted to make comparisons.
36:15
You see historical comparisons between innovation and
36:20
breakthrough innovation because most of the people say was were
36:24
saying that China had not made any breakthrough innovation.
36:29
Who invented the Internet? Of course it's.
36:34
Gore, Al Gore Al Gore claims the credit for inventing the
36:38
Internet. Yeah.
36:43
So very few people could put all that knowledge together.
36:47
You know, there there are people who understood maybe the
36:51
development of Italian Renaissance that led to later
36:58
the Portugal and and. Spain, but.
37:01
But to put that together with today's economic development,
37:06
very few, few people have done that, I think because today
37:09
there's not many people who really study history or or have
37:14
like classical education or apply those knowledge but to the
37:18
present. But to see, to see, to analyse
37:21
the present, you have to see the past.
37:24
To see, to analyse, if you want to, to look at the future, you
37:30
have to see the past. So that's the tendencies are
37:36
very moving. You see in terms of innovation,
37:40
you see, of course there is on the Chinese Internet.
37:45
For instance, you see the WeChat application.
37:49
It's it's crazy. You see this application because
37:54
it combines, you see a few things which are completely
37:59
separated in the in the in the US or in Europe.
38:05
You see, you have different applications, you see, and
38:08
wishing in is what we call all in one.
38:12
You see, it's a all in one. You can, you can talk, you can,
38:17
you can transfer money, you can and in the, in the in different,
38:25
I mean in the US or elsewhere it's different companies which
38:32
have their own application etcetera, etcetera.
38:34
Yeah, Elon Musk. It's a kind of innovation or so
38:38
it's, it's, it means that's very convenient.
38:43
Of course, there are also other sites, I mean social control,
38:48
etcetera, we can see. Well, Elon Musk and Zuckerberg
38:52
have wished they have a super app like the WeChat or even
38:56
Alipay for years now, but they haven't been able to
38:59
successfully replicate 1. You know, they always accuse
39:03
people. You know, some people in the
39:04
West always accuse China of copying, you know, technology.
39:08
But so far nobody had been successfully copied the Super
39:12
app concept of WeChat or or or Alipay.
39:16
And the TikTok is the best example.
39:19
So that's when it was when TikTok was developed.
39:26
It was already developed in the US in 2018 or 17.
39:33
It was quite popular at the time.
39:36
I say that there is going to be a problem in China.
39:45
So it's a kind of disymmetry of course, but asymmetry of I mean
39:52
in terms of exchanges. But now this kind of
39:57
transnational applications are really can raise also all kinds
40:06
of problems in the future. Well, that's why Trump
40:09
administration right now is trying to erect a wall right
40:13
between US and maybe some European market to try to wall
40:17
it off from the Chinese, Chinese apps and Chinese technologies,
40:22
including EVs or, or, or or or the in TikTok case, they're
40:27
trying to force China to sell TikTok to US.
40:31
Whether that approach will succeed, I think we that's
40:35
remain to be seen. It's remains to be seen because
40:39
I mean, most of the Chinese economies now consider that
40:44
Trump is in a kind of, I mean, the Chinese government actually
40:49
see Trump as a kind of he, he has his own contradiction, you
40:54
see, because he cannot do his trade war and in the same time
41:02
raise the stock market. So the stock market is something
41:07
which is very important in the US because most of the people
41:11
have who are retired depend from the stock market, you see.
41:17
And and if it cannot, this trade war can last for long, you see,
41:25
because the stock market is going, is going to, to go down.
41:30
And so I mean, the Chinese government now is, has a strong
41:37
position because it can wait. Of course, it's not as strong as
41:44
it seems because they are such, I mean such problems in the
41:49
Chinese economy itself with jobless among the young people,
41:56
with the growth which is not as as good as it is announced I.
42:04
Think yeah, but but but you must politicians they're they're very
42:08
good also at the stock market. You know, Nancy Pelosi is the
42:11
best stock thinkers of all times.
42:14
Her track record is also the fun managers on the Wall Street
42:20
because you know, she has insightful vision, of course,
42:23
but well, Gulen, with all the present trade wars and tensions
42:29
between the East and the West, what are your thoughts about
42:35
East West cultural exchanges going forward, particularly
42:39
China and the rest of the world? OK.
42:43
I think that actually the best way to have exchanges is through
42:50
audio video exchanges. I mean, because young people
42:56
don't like to read so much and they like to watch TV
43:02
documentaries or you see films, fiction films.
43:07
So that would be, in my opinion, the best way to learn or to see
43:14
you see, to exchange, to understand the point of view of
43:21
the other. And in history as well as in
43:26
literature, you see through fictions, through documentaries.
43:34
So that's obey the best media. But in the same time, you have
43:40
to to look also, what's the people have in mind?
43:46
Not not only what do they leave actually, but what do they
43:51
bring? What do they have in mind
43:54
yourself to understand the mentality of people.
43:58
So that's, that's, that's an important part of exchanges, you
44:04
see, because when you exchange with someone, you have to
44:08
understand his background, his context.
44:12
So why? That's why you see he ever asked
44:16
you question because before this interview about your, your own
44:22
past, you see. So I think that would be a great
44:29
understanding would be stimulated by a lot of audio
44:34
visual exchanges you see, documentaries, films, all these
44:39
things. So people talking, exchanging on
44:43
their lives, you see interesting or common people you see that's
44:50
and there are, there is so much now actually in China there is a
44:56
lot of work, documentary work. You see people who are doing a
45:03
lot of films, a lot of you see interviews.
45:07
So we have to valorise this capital, this intellectual
45:13
capital, in order that people from the outside understand
45:19
better China. And in the same time China has
45:23
to open also to other kinds of fictions and to to understand
45:30
better, you see. What are the contradictions?
45:34
Also not only the to present the societies in Europe or the US or
45:42
elsewhere as something flat, you see, but evolution is made of
45:48
contradictions. So to understand these
45:51
contradictions and this, this also the inner part also of what
45:58
people live. I, I fully agree with Gulen on
46:05
audio visual aid because humans are visual animals.
46:09
We respond better visually. And This is why everybody should
46:13
subscribe to my YouTube channel where they're going to watch our
46:18
interview together. And another thing I like to add
46:22
is that video games. Video games is amazing actually
46:27
to spark young people's interest in learning about history,
46:31
learning about other countries and China actually has done a
46:35
pretty good job recently with some blockbuster video games
46:39
like the Block, the Black Myth, Wukong.
46:42
And I expect more to come and, and, and now with all the young
46:46
people playing video games and sometimes they, they, they
46:49
interact with, with each other on these cooperative online
46:54
games. And they, that's another channel
46:57
for, for the people to people exchange, which I agree is very
47:00
important to people to people exchange, especially among the
47:04
young people because they are the future.
47:07
Again, watch our interview on YouTube.
47:10
My chat YouTube channel is Carl Zha.
47:13
And go look up Gulen's new book which is on Chinese, ancient
47:20
Chinese poetry, but also their context or stories, the story
47:24
behind the poets. It's a labour of love and and
47:28
many years of research. People should look that up.
47:31
Just so people know this is not a virtual background.
47:35
This is a real Pudong district of Shanghai behind us and when
47:41
Gulen first travelled to China back in 1980s and 90s.
47:45
Nothing was there. There's nothing there, just.
47:48
Barracks, you see barracks. Yeah, it was the same when I
47:55
left China from United States in 1990s.
47:58
This was all like warehouses. Warehouses.
48:04
Farms. Yeah, it's just just empty.
48:07
You, you, everything. Everything we see here was
48:11
building last 30. Years low things.
48:14
Yeah, yeah, One, this shows what's possible in one human
48:18
generation. And I think that's that's
48:20
actually quite inspirational. OK, one more question.
48:27
Go ahead. Question for audience.
48:29
Yeah, Yeah. So what?
48:29
How do you?
48:43
Well, I think New York is great, but you will be nice, nicer if
48:47
New York cleaned up like Shanghai.
48:50
So New York is a great city with a lot of energy, a lot of
48:54
bustling, but you would be perfect if you were to be as
48:58
clean and as safe as Shanghai. That's my take.
49:04
And Paris is a much smaller city, but the main part of
49:12
Paris, what is good in Paris is that you can feel a little bit
49:19
in the past because all the city centre, I mean like the which is
49:27
as big as Pudong has been built in the 19th, at the end of the
49:33
19th century. And it has remained in the same
49:38
aspect you see. So you can walk and discover you
49:43
see the places where Baudelaire was living, where you see all
49:50
the poets were living in the 19th century, or Neville was,
49:57
was living, you see was was studying.
50:00
Or since Romantics you see the since 1860 it has not changed a
50:11
lot. Or since the beginning of the
50:17
20th century does not change a lot.
50:21
But it's a, it's a, it's a breath of fresh air talking to
50:24
you, GUI Lin, because you kind of, you kind of have, have the
50:29
ability to synthesise all these information, including from
50:33
history to apply to the present. And, and I think that's, that's
50:37
very rare. And to be able to keep up with
50:39
all these latest developments that's happening today as well
50:44
as way in the ancient past is there is there Is this book only
50:51
in French right now? It's only in French.
50:54
Right, OK, so guys learn French. Is there is this has been a
51:03
fascinating, fascinating interview for people to find
51:07
your work. Where would they go?
51:10
To this this book 1st and also to the edition poem because on
51:18
my my poetry is also you you have all the edition floem which
51:27
is so on the site you see on the Internet for my poetry you see
51:34
my. People go purchase this book.
51:38
Learn French and search for Gulen father.
51:45
This is and and. I have also articles in English
51:49
of course. Yes, and definitely follow good
51:54
professor. I'm sorry, I I, I keep on
51:56
referring to as professor because you have such breadth of
52:00
knowledge. Follow Gulen this and and thank
52:05
you for everyone for tuning in to today's episode of so can
52:09
Still podcast. Again, I'm your host, Carl Zah.
52:12
Thanks for watching. Bye bye.
52:17
Perfect timing.