Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 143. Discovering Your Own Personal Giving Strategy - Sybil Ackerman-Munson

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143. Discovering Your Own Personal Giving Strategy - Sybil Ackerman-Munson · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm john.
• 0:02
  Becky Endicott: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:05
  Becky Endicott: nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:14
  Becky Endicott: We're here to learn with you
• 0:15
  Jonathan McCoy: from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community, where nonprofit professionals, philanthropist world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Hey, Becky,
• 0:37
  Becky Endicott: Hi, everybody,
• 0:38
  Jonathan McCoy: we're gonna do some good today,
• 0:39
  Becky Endicott: we're gonna do something a little different.
• 0:41
  Becky Endicott: And it's like we brought a gift to our community. We're gonna empower you with something really cool. Today, we're talking
• 0:48
  Jonathan McCoy: to you as the philanthropist that you are today you are it's gonna be a little different conversation.
• 0:53
  Jonathan McCoy: So we have met a kindred spirit who is out on the West Coast living her best life in Portland. Sibel Ackerman. Munson is with us today. And she has got this amazing career, a really amazing family. I hope you thread some of this together. A daughter of professors that had these lovely table conversations growing up in New York, and then went to California, Southern Oregon and worked in the nonprofit space really on the inside, and got to know that side of the business so well. But transition now to really serving outside of the organization with working with donors, because there's this whole gap of just how do you really maximize your personal giving to align it with the values that resonate with your own personal life, the things that you want to see come true in the world. And she calls this do your good, and I wish I could italicize your in my language.
• 1:38
  Jonathan McCoy: Because the your we're going to really unpack here today. But Sibel is just a light, and I can't wait for this conversation. But just help me welcome her and simple. So glad you're here. Welcome to the podcast. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
• 1:54
  Jonathan McCoy: I'm honored. You bet. And you have good in the name of your podcast. siblings.
• 1:59
  Becky Endicott: It's like a cousin or something.
• 2:01
  Jonathan McCoy: So go ahead, friends, get her podcast in your queue, do your good. It's in the same podcast platform you listen to right now. But civil, would you tell us a little bit about your story? And what led you to wanting to do this work? And I would love for you to tell some of your family story too, because it's fascinating.
• 2:16
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Oh, sure.
• 2:16
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Sure, sure. So first, let's just start start with the business side of things. Um, well, my whole career has been in sort of nonprofits, nonprofit world, it actually never really crossed my mind to work in a business not not that working in a business isn't a great thing. I just always wanted to, you know, my dream was to be like a conservation director of a nonprofit land conservation because I do environmental stuff, right. And so that was my focus is to do that. And then over time, I, I had a, I was working in the nonprofit sphere.
• 2:50
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And then some of the donors that supported my work. They started saying, Awesome, well, this is really interesting what you're doing. And one donor pulled me aside and had me start to work for them. And they said, Can you be the executive director and I said, rockin, that'd be great. I love we'd love to give money away to all these causes that you've been supporting. Because a lot of them were nonprofits that were my friends, you know, people who I care about people who I know. And, you know, it's way more than just a job, right?
• 3:21
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: To be a nonprofit person. It's like a heart job. It's like, you get up every morning, because you're passionate about what you're doing. And you want to see the world in a better way.
• 3:31
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And you want to help people and, and everything and and, and so that's really key. So then when I moved over to be being a foundation person, I started helping people give their money away. And I it was really, really, it has been a really interesting journey for me. I started working with one family.
• 3:49
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And now I work with many, many families. I processed probably over 100 150 grant proposals a year. And when I say process, I mean, everything from soup to nuts, and I put them together and recommendations for families. And so I really have had sort of the inside insider's view of both what it's like to be in a nonprofit world, what it's like to be in the donor world, what it's like to be at a trustee meeting, like what do they actually talk about in those meetings? And how we how, how are our nonprofits coming forward in the best light in those meetings, because we all actually the trustees, me, we all want to support nonprofits, it's like a positive thing. And so that's super cool. It's not like a competitive thing. It's a positive thing. And so, over time, though, over the last 10 years, I found that, um, you know, I was wanting to think about all of these structures, like how can we support nonprofits even more in the donor sphere, and I kept thinking about it and thinking about it and seeing hurdles and making and people making mistakes that are real problems for nonprofits to be able to access those dollars. And so that's why I created this thing called do your good And I created it, I'm still working one on one with clients. Like I love the people I work with. It inspires me so much to interview amazing nonprofits every day.
• 5:07
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: But at the same time, there's so many things that like I wanted to say about just how to support donors to be even better at how they give their money away, how to support donors to be passionate about what they give to, so that they don't lose interest, and then stop giving.
• 5:27
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And so I started to do your good and I call it your because it's about the individual person's interests. And what they want to do. It's not about like, what everyone else thinks you should do in the world. It's about your own personal passion. And that is what's going to drive, good giving. That's what's going to drive helping helping the world.
• 5:48
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: So I guess that's sort of the professional but I couldn't help it get a little bit like sappy,
• 5:55
  Becky Endicott: sappy work, like, of course it is. And I think that what you're doing is so interesting. And, and I honestly, I'm shocked that I've never thought about it even just personally, with my own family like sitting down and having those value conversations because I think our philanthropy as a family, we have certain organizations that we support, and that we've always supported.
• 6:16
  Becky Endicott: But just by virtue of being on this podcast, I need somebody to help me not be an add giver, because I hear something. And it's like, I just jump, and I want to support everybody, and we have these guests on with these incredible missions. And it's like, I think this is going to be a very interesting conversation about value alignment, about how you're very intentional with your gifts. But before we dive into the discovering your own personal giving strategy, I really do want you to talk a little bit about your family. Because I think that that sets a very interesting dynamic for what you're doing now. Because you were really raised by pioneers and people, your parents were so supportive and well educated and innovative in their thinking. So tell us a little bit about Yeah, your childhood growing up? Oh, my
• 7:08
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: gosh, well, um, well, the first thing is, is I'm very humble about the whole thing, right? I I really lucked into a family that is kind and caring and has been nurturing since I was a little kid animals gonna cry. But of course, they would, they probably wouldn't like that I'm saying all that because they're very Matter of fact, you. And I grew up with to Professor parents, and my mom is, is amazing, because she's a PhD in economics and sort of a world renowned person on anti corruption issues around the world. That's how I grew up.
• 7:40
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: It's just really, as a woman to just looking to my family and, and having really, all the women in my family, my aunt who's a lawyer on Wall Street, my other aunt, who's a teacher, and Greek and Latin, there's just there's not there's everybody is just like, yes, we're going to try.
• 8:02
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And this is the generation before me, and I'm not a young person. So they were pioneers in a lot of what they were doing.
• 8:08
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: My family also, you know, we would talk about issues a lot over the dinner table, and I'd wake up every morning, and we'd always have all the newspapers spread out on our breakfast table, and read the paper. And it was when paper was there, right? So we be like, Oh, look at this article. What do you think about it, that kind of thing. And my dad especially has taught me to dream big. So yeah, so I've just grown up with, with with a family that is always about thinking about things and gray areas, and listening to people. And knowing that there's just not only one right way to go. And, and, and I've really tried to instill that in just everything that I do. And so shout out to my mom and dad for just being so wonderful. Oh, one other thing I want to say, ever since I was little. And I really agree with this. I need to own my privilege and give back.
• 9:06
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Because because I come from a family of privilege. There is no reason for me to go out there and do anything other than help people who may not have been in as lucky a situation as I was.
• 9:20
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: So that's been I agree with it.
• 9:20
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And it's been instilled with me since I was a young girl.
• 9:26
  Becky Endicott: Okay, a major round of applause for Sybil's parents who, at such a young age, I'm thinking this is like a parenting hack right here. You can employ cognitive diversity within your children by just bringing up issues and asking them what they think about it the level of intelligent conversation that you can have that's based in compassion and how do you think that made them feel and how do you think this issue impacts people? It's no wonder that you have such a wide worldview. You in this heart for service. And I definitely agree with you about owning our privilege. I think even coming from a home with two parents, and feeling very nurtured and loved is a privilege. And we need to take that. And again, I just support what you're saying about pushing it into the world.
• 10:17
  Becky Endicott: So I really want you to dive into this discovering your own personal giving strategy. I mean, you have savvy, nonprofit professionals listening on this podcast who are doing this and trying to build the case for donors, why aren't we doing it for ourselves? help walk us through all the pieces.
• 10:34
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Great.
• 10:34
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Yeah. So there's, there's two different kinds of courses that I teach, and that I talked to with folks about with books. And I want to lean into this first course, which is about making your money matter. And I think that's what you're talking about. The second course that I just finished and launching soon, is, once you have that passion, and you know, your focus, how can you make sure that you're giving your money away with humility, supporting the nonprofits and not messing it up? Because you can't, even if you have a passion piece, so let's talk about the first one first. And the way that I there's sort of steps that I have in the course. So these are the three main things, what do you do day to day? Okay, what's your hobbies? And then what is the place that gives you rejuvenation? So now you're sort of thinking about, hmm, there's some things that maybe sort of what I do day to day, a hobby, there's some there's like two or three things in here that are exactly the same. Then the last part, though, is, what's the stressful thing? What keeps you up at night? What do you worry about? Right? For me, it's climate change. I worry about that a lot. Okay, so I want to think about how can I do things that can help fix that problem?
• 11:56
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: For you, it could be any number of things. That's why it's called do your good, figure out what it is that you're worried about.
• 12:03
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• 13:00
  Becky Endicott: Check them out at gift butter.com.
• 13:06
  Jonathan McCoy: I love the framework because it is about discovering what's important to you. And I think that fourth, was it the fourth one officially that resonated with me of like, what is this burden? Because, you know, my family we part of our story is when we traveled overseas as the first time that we just had this mind blowing worldwide perspective of people live differently than us.
• 13:26
  Jonathan McCoy: There's different injustices that happened that I wasn't aware of. And so I think there's different ways that the world intersects us that puts a burden on us for certain cause that isn't part of our daily life.
• 13:38
  Jonathan McCoy: But it's something that haunts us, or that hurts us or that keeps us up. And so I love that that is part of this of channeling what you're not only just passionate about in life, but also how do you perpetuate that to, you know, work against the darkness that you are trying to fight whatever it may be. But we always love to talk about water for because they're a water charity that really thinks beyond to say we don't want to just put a well in the middle of town. Like, there was a true moment when I in my privilege was on the call with their executive director. And he's explaining this to me. And I'm like, I've never thought about what I want to go walk down the street to get water. Like that's not a great solution. It's a it's good that they're now clean water. But the goal would be to have infrastructure where they have water in their houses, that's what we would want. So why do we not dream bigger for other people? And I think what you're getting at is, what do you see in front of you that could be the dream to fix this other problem? invest in that, you know, don't sell that short.
• 14:36
  Becky Endicott: I think the thing that I love so much and it's probably you know, threaded in the same element that you lifted up, john, is that on that stressful thing on the burden?
• 14:46
  Becky Endicott: It's like that can your philanthropy can almost be your therapy. You know, and I I mean, we I have two little environmentalist at my house too and my daughters love animals.
• 14:58
  Becky Endicott: They love the outdoors. They love nature and they're very into just like picking up trash and finding ways that in our little part of the world that we can be a part of helping the climate crisis, but it's also like, Oh, I can use that passion that they have. And you know, I share your worry, as well, Sibyl about the climate disaster. And I think about, oh, that doesn't just have to be something that stresses me out. It's something that I can intentionally pour into, that makes me feel better about what I'm actively doing to pour into the things that bother me. So this is a great conversation. And I just love that, you know, we, we try to say a lot in philanthropy, like, it's not about us. It's not about our mission. It's not about what we can bring to the donor. But in this conversation, I love that we're loving on our community and saying, we want you to be philanthropists, that that are empowered to change the world, we want you to feel like your gift can make a difference not only to the nonprofit, but it makes a difference in your life. So this conversation is just wonderful.
• 16:02
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: That's so great, Becky. And, you know, I go through the journey myself in the, in my course, in the end, it's my kids and my family, and watching my kids grow. That's really inspiring to me, and climate change that's keeping me up at night. And so in the end, what I did was I ended up suggesting to myself, that I give funding to youth groups, kids that are speaking out in favor of action on climate change. And so that's where I ended up focusing my donation in the course. And so you can see how you can mix and match. But it's still now that I've done the exercise is a through line to my own personal passions and thoughts. So I love that, Becky, thank you.
• 16:39
  Becky Endicott: Oh, you're welcome. I you you tease this just a little bit. And I'd love for you to go into it. How does someone center on how much they're going to give? How often they give? How do you set up structures that make sense, because I think one of the geniuses of this framework that you've built is the intentionality of it. So talk to us a little bit about how you frame the amounts, the frequency of it. Recurring giving, I think would be a maybe a common theme for this guy, give us all the tips.
• 17:10
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: So there's two pieces to this. So how much are you comfortable giving away at the moment, it might change over your lifetime, you know. And I say you can make a difference, no matter how much money you have to give away, you really can. And even if if you can sort of afford a cup of coffee a day, what I recommend, if that's in your budget, if it's okay to afford a cup of coffee a day, you can maybe put aside how much money that would cost a day two or three bucks a day. And then at the end of each month, you have quite a bit of money to give away to a group, you know, the nonprofit's need sustained. donors that give money and $90 can go a long way, especially for smaller, more local nonprofits. And what I've seen way too often happen, especially with folks who may have more funding right up front, is they go, Oh, my gosh, we care about climate change. We care about some big, big issue.
• 18:01
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And then they scatter their funding all around. And then they start getting, like I said before, they get really frustrated. So that's the first piece is you can make a difference out no matter how much you have. But it's a question of focus, and how you tear it up. The second side of this, though, is you have a focus and you have funding to give away. But how do you do it with respect with support by listening? How do you do it effectively, there's an art to being a good donor. It's not just writing a check it is there is an art form to it. And when you're out of what I call a funder bubble, you're not being a funder that doesn't listen, and just says, Okay, I care about this issue. So I'm just gonna give you money to do it I care about you have to make that transition now to okay know what I care about. But it's the nonprofits that actually know how to get the job done.
• 18:54
  Jonathan McCoy: I think this is great. I think your brain trust of working within nonprofits and coaching people on the outside is a really unique space.
• 19:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Because you know, the perspectives is just different when you're trying to engage donors and trying to help them through the journey. I wonder if there's ways you could speak into how could a nonprofit do a better job of stewarding a potential donor or asking and making the connection to their values into what matters to people? I love your thoughts on that.
• 19:56
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Yeah, yeah. So um, there are three different kinds of funders, three different kinds of donors, and nonprofits. If they know how to approach the donor and know what which kind of donor they are, they will be so much more successful in raising money. So there are donors that are sustainer donors. There are donors that are campaigner donors, and there are donors that are launcher donors.
• 20:23
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: sustainer donors are donors that care about an issue, but they don't want to really get involved in tons of detail.
• 20:34
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Tails, those folks love to go on the outings, they love to go to the annual dinner, they love to do the general stuff. And they won't ask too many questions Other than that, and that's the way you can talk to them as an executive director to say, Hey, you know, we've got these great outings, we've got all this good stuff, you know, give us money year after year, they're very important donor sustainer donors, because they allow a lot of flexibility, then there are campaigner donors. Now, if you approach a campaign or donor, like they're a sustainer, donor, you will strike out. So campaigner donors, they are more interested in changing a societal norm, this person wants to fund a campaign to change the societal norm. And it's not going to be easy, it's really, really hard. And they probably are leaning into the issue, reading lots of newspaper articles about it, they really care about it. And so you're saying to them more, here's the major societal more we need to change. And here's how my group is going to do that. And not only that, here are the levers we're going to, we're going to touch to like change it. And we're going to work with 15 other groups. And this is how all the other groups are going to do it. And the grants are usually only one year or one in a very shorter term. And things change because the donor isn't going to fund you necessarily year after year. But the benefit is that you could maybe raise multi millions of dollars for this campaign in the short term.
• 21:55
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Now, once you're able to change that societal norm, it's going to go back to relying on sustainer donors, because those campaigner donors are not going to be there for a long time. And sometimes those campaigner donors will hire experts to help them. And so it'll be much more of a partnership. And there's some nonprofits that are really uncomfortable with this. But I'm suggesting that it's not something to be uncomfortable with because it's it's a really great way for you to partner with, with foundations and get something over the finish line in a way that if you only had sustainer donors, you wouldn't be able to pursue it that way.
• 22:29
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: The third kind of donor is a launcher donor. And they sort of think similarly to a campaign or donor, a launcher donor is really interested in funding gaps in a field. Okay, so let's say you know, if there's something that's going on, and you as an executive director see that there is a really big gap, like something that you can't cover, but you need it to really help your work to move forward.
• 22:52
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: So these are some cool things, which is why I in when I was starting out, I got all confused because funders, funders who were launcher, funders would say to me scible, the really way to do it is just to find the gaps and to support that. And campaigners would be like, the real way to do it is to find the place where we needed societal norm changed, and just do that.
• 23:11
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And the Sustainer voters would say, Sibel you just need to do your by your grants, your you know, multi year grants and not ask questions. If the group is generally the mission is aligned. And and I actually think all three ways to fund are wonderful. And as long as nonprofits can approach each funder in a way with that with understanding the differences, then I think they'll have a great chance of even raising more money.
• 23:37
  Jonathan McCoy: I think that's a real interesting way to look at it, and one that I've honestly not heard before. So I think there to your point, there is a space for everybody at every nonprofit at different times, you know, because we're in different life cycles to as an organization have the type of support that you're looking for.
• 23:51
  Jonathan McCoy: So
• 23:52
  Becky Endicott: and I also think it's like analyzing motivations.
• 23:56
  Becky Endicott: And the thing that I like so much about this structure, and we talk about this frequently is not treating your donors equally across the board when you're communicating with them when they're engaging when you're like building an engagement plan. And this is really challenging us to look at how do we contour messages? How do we contour our interactions in a very intentional way. I mean, I think some of the thread of this conversation is about intentionality, and focus, and aligning all of that with passion. And I think that if you are someone who has emotional intelligence, and you can really look at your donors, and see what their heart is and what they need, you cannot treat them equally you have to meet them in the space that they are. So I do think that these three different types are incredibly interesting. And even as you're talking about them. I'm sifting through the top my 20 year career and putting certain donors in certain buckets. And I can actually see how this framework would look. I want to talk about like how our listeners can validate their giving. Walk us through how we can ensure we're making the greatest impact possible because I'm sure there are costly mistakes out there that we can avoid. So help us with that.
• 25:08
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: It's really interesting question. So if you're a sustainer funder, you can validate your giving by just making sure that the groups that you've been giving to over the years are still aligning with the values of the organization. You're with the campaigner funder in the launcher funder each year, there are very clear benchmarks. There are going to be very clear conversations and policies that people are going to be talking about in year one, year two, there's going to be communications plans, there's going to be additional funding people have to raise. So it's going to be very, very intense on the validation. So how many of you all if you've worked in a nonprofit, have like labored over those final reports and stressed about them. And yet they're important people read them. But the reality is, they're only like a small smidgen important. It's the other stuff I was talking about.
• 26:05
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: That's more important. If you're a donor for validating your work. It's not about being able to read mountains of papers and final reports.
• 26:14
  Jonathan McCoy: Well, I just love it to think of you as this guide to donors to really get in touch with what matters most to them, keep them pointed with their North Star, I just think you've got to have some amazing stories of how philanthropy has moved you. Would you mind sharing one of those that's just stuck with you. It could be, you know, from your first career, or the second one, where you really have seen philanthropy make a difference. That's, that's resonated.
• 26:36
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: So you know, every single day, I wake up and interview nonprofit leaders, about issues that I know the donors I work for care about. And these are amazing people who get up in the morning and are so inspired by what they do that and they will a lot of times be overcoming extreme personal adversity, to also work on really hard issues that not everyone agrees with. And I just always think back on this one conversation I had with a longtime donor, excuse me grantee who she was so wonderful, we were talking about a particular issue, natural resources issue. And we talked about it went through it all.
• 27:22
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: And she said, you know, Sibel, I might be a little late for our next call. And I said, Why? And she said, Well, I'm working on adopting my granddaughter, it was very personal. And my mom was crying, even thinking about it now, you know, and, and she said it at the end, right? She said it at the end, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, take all the time, you need to all the time you need and the funding will be there to support your group. And maybe we can find more funding, so you just don't have to stress so much right now. And those are the kind of things that give me inspiration that I can work for people who have means that can then help nonprofits, that a lot of times are very small nonprofits, grassroots kind of nonprofits, with people who are doing this from a labor of love, that are trying to help the world. And can I we can, we can do that. And that's what philanthropy when it's at its best does.
• 28:13
  Becky Endicott: And I love that you use a specific example of story in there. Because even as you're telling that story, I can almost see this woman and I see, you know, the worry on her, like creased on her brow. And that's what makes giving so personal is that we desire to want to help the thing, the person, and we can't just talk about it at a high level in a vacuum. We've got to humanize and find a way to tell a really good story. So thank you for sharing that. I wonder, you know, we ask all of our guests. What's your one good thing? Sibyl, I know you've listened to the podcast, you've heard many examples. I'm very curious to hear what your one good thing is for our community.
• 28:56
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Think positive first about people go to a situation, assuming the best in what somebody wants to have happen in the world and nurture that support it. And I think that you'd be surprised at how much good happens. You think that way.
• 29:17
  Jonathan McCoy: I love that one of our values at OSU Foundation was I don't know if it's an official value, but it was like seek first to understand, you know, I think it threads in so strongly. And we need a lot more of that in our world today. So what a wonderful one good thing.
• 29:28
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, so you've talked a little bit about your courses, and you've got a podcast, would you tell listeners how we can find you on the web and people can reach out.
• 29:39
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: So um, it's www.do, your good.com. So definitely check me out on my website. And on the website has the podcast but like he said, you can see do your good podcast. Or you can type in civil Ackerman Munson. And it's on all the regular streaming sites that people use to listen to podcast. Thank you so much.
• 30:00
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Well, and I
• 30:02
  Becky Endicott: want to give a shout out to your website because you have a great quiz on there. So if you're really invested in this conversation about how to make your giving your personal giving more intentionally, you've got a great quiz that that people can take to help them discover what their personal giving strategy is going to be to help them do good in the world. This is such a great conversation to help us put some intention behind our philanthropy. So thank you civil.
• 30:26
  Sybil Ackerman-Munson: Thank you. It's been such an honor to talk to you all and I really can't wait till the next time.
• 30:32
  Julie Confer: Hey, friends, thanks so much for being here.
• 30:34
  Julie Confer: Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics? Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than our we'd love for you to join our good community it's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for good comm backslash Hello or thing if you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and Your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends.
• 31:03
  Julie Confer: I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is sunray by Remy boys boom