Latest / Story Magic / 84 - 4 Pillars to Author Success with Emma Dhesi

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84 - 4 Pillars to Author Success with Emma Dhesi · Story Magic

2:28
Emily: Hey, writers, welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
2:32
Rachel: I'm Rachel.
2:33
Emily: And I'm Emily.
2:34
Rachel: And today we are talking about the four pillars to author success with our very good friend, Emma Desi.
2:41
Rachel: Welcome, Emma.
2:42
Emily: Hi, Emma.
2:44
Emma Dhesi: Hey, ladies.
2:45
Emma Dhesi: How are you?
2:46
Emily: Oh, we're so excited to have you here again.
2:49
Emma Dhesi: Again.
2:50
Rachel: We had you on the podcast last year, year before.
2:53
Rachel: I can't believe we've been doing this for so long now, but we had you on the podcast a while ago.
2:58
Rachel: It was episode 21.
3:00
Rachel: We talked about theme and story and character and it.
3:05
Rachel: And the story point.
3:06
Rachel: It was a wonderful discussions.
3:08
Rachel: We're so happy to have you back today.
3:11
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, no, me too.
3:12
Emma Dhesi: I'm really happy.
3:12
Emma Dhesi: That was a really good conversation.
3:14
Emma Dhesi: I remember that.
3:15
Emma Dhesi: I really, really enjoyed that.
3:16
Emma Dhesi: So, yes.
3:17
Emma Dhesi: So if that was episode 21 and you guys are on at least 80 something now, so be 84.
3:22
Rachel: Yeah.
3:23
Emma Dhesi: So you're old timers.
3:24
Emma Dhesi: I think now in podcasting, old timers.
3:28
Rachel: We'Ve got some episodes under our belt coming up.
3:31
Rachel: Two years almost.
3:33
Emily: I know, it's crazy.
3:36
Rachel: This podcast is older than your child, Emily.
3:41
Emily: I know.
3:42
Emily: I was just thinking.
3:43
Emily: We managed to maintain it through.
3:45
Emily: Yeah, we really have Bailey being born.
3:47
Emily: So fun.
3:49
Emma Dhesi: Teamwork for you.
3:49
Emma Dhesi: Teamwork.
3:52
Rachel: Well, anyway, we are so glad to have you.
3:54
Rachel: Emma is one of our great friends.
3:56
Rachel: She's another book coach.
3:57
Rachel: But, Emma, would you tell us a little bit about you and the work you do and the people that you serve?
4:03
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, I'd love to.
4:05
Emma Dhesi: So I am, I guess, first and foremost a writer.
4:08
Emma Dhesi: I would say that's how I came into this in the first place.
4:11
Emma Dhesi: And I suspect, like a lot of your listeners, I'd always been writing off and on since childhood, through the teen years.
4:20
Emma Dhesi: No angsty poetry, however, but very angry young adult novels.
4:26
Emma Dhesi: And then in my 20s about what was going on then, and then in my 30s, but I never really finished anything.
4:32
Emma Dhesi: And, you know, I'd sort of get very excited about a story idea and then it would fizzle out.
4:38
Emma Dhesi: Then I'd do another course, I'd get all excited again, and then it would always fizzle out.
4:43
Emma Dhesi: And the itch kept coming back, kept coming back.
4:46
Emma Dhesi: And then I was getting to my 40th birthday and the itch came back and I was sort of like, oh, this is ridiculous.
4:54
Emma Dhesi: You either do this or give it up.
4:57
Emma Dhesi: Like, move on with your life and do something else.
5:00
Emma Dhesi: So I made a decision that I would write a full first draft, like the beginning, the middle, and finally the end as well.
5:08
Emma Dhesi: And it didn't matter how long it took, I just had to do it.
5:11
Emma Dhesi: And then, then I could decide from there, did I enjoy this experience?
5:14
Emma Dhesi: Was it lots of fun and I'm going to continue revising it or was it just hideous?
5:20
Emma Dhesi: And I hated every minute and I never want to do it again.
5:23
Emma Dhesi: And then at least I'd know one way or the other.
5:26
Emma Dhesi: And so it did took me about, I would say, I'd say it took me about two years to write it and then what, another four years to revise it?
5:35
Emily: Something like that sounds about right.
5:38
Emma Dhesi: But I got there and I do remember that feeling, I think it was when I published it.
5:44
Emma Dhesi: I do remember that feeling of wow, I can't believe I've actually done this.
5:48
Emma Dhesi: And I remember thinking, I wonder how many other I would have described myself as middle aged by that point.
5:55
Emma Dhesi: I know some people get a bit cross with me for saying that, but I thought, I wonder how many other women of my age who had been stay at home mums as well had thought they'd left it too late, they'd put it behind them.
6:06
Emma Dhesi: If they were meant to have done this, they would have done it in their 20s.
6:11
Emma Dhesi: And so I thought, I just, I want to, if there are, I bet there are and I want to help them do it.
6:15
Emma Dhesi: I want them to see that they've still, still got a lot of life in them yet.
6:20
Emma Dhesi: And so if they still want to write a book, then it's absolutely within their, within their remit and they can certainly do it.
6:27
Emma Dhesi: And so, you know, I worked on my craft and kept going and kind of found out a way that worked for me.
6:34
Emma Dhesi: And then I started sharing that with others and then the sort of coaching grew from there.
6:39
Emma Dhesi: And then I'd say about three years into coaching I came across Jenny Nash, who runs Author Accelerator.
6:45
Emma Dhesi: And I was humming and arring.
6:46
Emma Dhesi: I thought, do I need to do that?
6:49
Emma Dhesi: And I thought, no, probably don't need to do that.
6:51
Emma Dhesi: But I got curious about how could it help my own writing kind of improve my own storytelling.
6:59
Emma Dhesi: And so I decided to do the course and then decided to go for the accreditation and became an Author Exceller certified coach a year ago, just over a year ago.
7:11
Emma Dhesi: So it was nice actually.
7:12
Emma Dhesi: And it gave me some new language to talk around book coaching and storytelling and it gave me a new, I'd say actually it gave me a new level of confidence as well.
7:21
Emma Dhesi: And it probably fits in quite nicely with what we're going to be talking about later today.
7:26
Emma Dhesi: But just that Idea of it was a new bit of growth in my own coaching and professional development.
7:33
Emma Dhesi: And. And so that's brought me to.
7:35
Emma Dhesi: To where I am now.
7:36
Rachel: Yeah, I love that.
7:38
Rachel: I think we get to a part in writing and in coaching where we're like, I think I've learned.
7:44
Rachel: I think I'm doing okay.
7:45
Rachel: You know, do I need to learn more?
7:46
Rachel: But in both writing and in coaching, like, yeah, there's always more things to learn.
7:50
Rachel: That's just life.
7:51
Rachel: Like, literally, we just have to keep growing.
7:54
Rachel: But it's so important because you look at the world differently and you have a new language to use and you connect with other people, and I love that.
8:01
Rachel: Congratulations on the certification.
8:03
Emma Dhesi: That's awesome.
8:04
Emma Dhesi: Thank you very much.
8:04
Emma Dhesi: Thank you.
8:05
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, it was quite rigorous training, actually.
8:07
Emma Dhesi: So there was three practicums we had to do.
8:10
Emma Dhesi: Jenny has, you know, this blueprint that she likes her clients to work through, which is really useful.
8:16
Emma Dhesi: And then revising manuscripts, looking at manuscripts, how to critique manuscripts in a more thorough way.
8:23
Emma Dhesi: And then the other, the sort of third practicum is about helping people find an agent, if that's the route that they want to take, putting together that agent list for them.
8:31
Emma Dhesi: And that was really interesting because that's not something I've chosen to do.
8:34
Emma Dhesi: So. So that was a new skill that I could add into.
8:37
Emma Dhesi: Into my repertoire.
8:39
Emma Dhesi: So what?
8:39
Emma Dhesi: It was pretty rigorous, and I felt pretty proud of myself, and I came out the other end.
8:44
Rachel: Yeah, that's awesome.
8:47
Rachel: So today we're talking about pillars to author success.
8:50
Rachel: What does that mean?
8:51
Rachel: What are we talking about?
8:53
Emma Dhesi: Well, that is a good question, isn't it?
8:55
Emma Dhesi: Because success.
8:56
Emma Dhesi: What is success?
8:57
Emma Dhesi: Of course, that's different for absolutely everybody.
9:01
Emma Dhesi: And I don't know if you caught it, but I know that one of the service providers, FFS Media, I think it is, they've just launched or released the results of their survey.
9:14
Emma Dhesi: And it was interesting.
9:16
Emma Dhesi: They asked.
9:16
Emma Dhesi: One of the questions they asked was, you know, why do people.
9:20
Emma Dhesi: Why are people writing?
9:20
Emma Dhesi: And it was a real nice mix.
9:23
Emma Dhesi: A lot of people were doing it just because it was fun and they enjoyed it.
9:27
Emma Dhesi: But there was obviously a large proportion of people who did want to eventually make money from their books as well.
9:33
Emma Dhesi: So really interesting.
9:34
Emma Dhesi: And there was another proportion of people who.
9:37
Emma Dhesi: For whom writing a book was a business tool.
9:39
Emma Dhesi: You know, it was something that they wanted to use to grow their business.
9:43
Emma Dhesi: So our definition of success is so, so different for everybody.
9:47
Emma Dhesi: And, you know, a friend of mine was telling me about a woman she coached to.
9:54
Emma Dhesi: To write a memoir, and it was it took them a good few years.
9:58
Emma Dhesi: And it was about a very, very sensitive topic involving this lady and her brother and the family dynamics within it.
10:04
Emma Dhesi: And she was in her 70s by the time she wanted to write this.
10:08
Emma Dhesi: And they spent a long time on it and it was very deep, as you can imagine, very emotional.
10:13
Emma Dhesi: The book was finished.
10:14
Emma Dhesi: And so my friend said to her client, what do you want to do with it now?
10:17
Emma Dhesi: Do you want to publish it?
10:19
Emma Dhesi: And she said, no, burn it.
10:20
Emily: Wow.
10:21
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, so they burned the book.
10:23
Emma Dhesi: But that was a successful book because it did what it needed to do for that particular lady.
10:28
Emma Dhesi: She needed to write about this experience and get it out of her system, make sense of it all and feel that she had put it somewhere, somewhere and work through it all.
10:37
Emma Dhesi: So that was success for her.
10:39
Emily: What a beautiful story.
10:41
Emma Dhesi: Most people.
10:42
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, but it.
10:45
Emma Dhesi: But then.
10:45
Emma Dhesi: So for others it is going to be about.
10:47
Emma Dhesi: I would love to earn either additional income, full time income with this, or, you know, I've just got this one burning story that I want to see out in the world.
10:57
Emma Dhesi: It's the one book I've been writing for the last 30 years.
11:00
Emma Dhesi: I just need to get it done.
11:02
Emma Dhesi: Or, you know, it's a family legacy.
11:03
Emma Dhesi: It's just something that is going to be shared within the family.
11:06
Emma Dhesi: So everybody's going to have their own somewhere within that mix, their own idea of what their success is.
11:13
Emma Dhesi: But no matter what that definition of success is, I think we do go through each of these four pillars.
11:20
Rachel: Yeah, that makes sense.
11:21
Emma Dhesi: And I think they're as relevant to the newbie as they are to somebody who's at the top of their game and is on the bestseller lists and getting the big advances.
11:31
Emma Dhesi: I've noticed.
11:32
Emma Dhesi: I myself go through it, clients go through it.
11:35
Emma Dhesi: And then from like on Facebook, seeing people's questions and comments, I've seen that they go through it too.
11:41
Emily: Yeah, I love that you're starting with this idea of like, what is success?
11:45
Emily: And that's really personal for people because I think that's something that a lot of writers just don't even think about because there's like, there's this narrative out there that if you're successful as a writer, that means X, Y and Z.
11:56
Emily: You know, that looks a certain way.
11:57
Emily: And so nobody ever stops to think, like, what, what do I actually want out of this?
11:59
Emily: Like, would success look like for me?
12:03
Emily: So I think that's, that's a really fantastic way to start with the pillars conversation.
12:09
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.
12:10
Emma Dhesi: I think a lot of people don't ask that question, what do I want?
12:12
Emma Dhesi: What was it?
12:13
Emma Dhesi: What do.
12:14
Emma Dhesi: What's good for me.
12:15
Emma Dhesi: But I would say that the first pillar then that we all go through is awareness.
12:20
Emma Dhesi: So at some stage, we start with that first short story or that first workshop or maybe that decision that we want to maybe publish these books and put them out into the world.
12:31
Emma Dhesi: And so we kind of have to have an awareness of where we are in this writing and publishing landscape.
12:37
Emma Dhesi: Have we literally just come through the door, in which case, exciting times ahead, there's lots of fun to be had, lots we don't know, lots we're going to learn, lots of friends we're going to make, lots of mistakes we're going to make, but lots of progress we're going to make, too, or our way further along.
12:54
Emma Dhesi: And we've written that first draft like I was when I did that all those years ago.
12:59
Emma Dhesi: And we can kind of look back and see, oh, look how far I've come.
13:02
Emma Dhesi: I've finished something that I didn't think I could do.
13:05
Emma Dhesi: And is the point at which most people stop.
13:08
Emma Dhesi: They don't even get to that first draft.
13:10
Emma Dhesi: Maybe you've published that first book.
13:11
Emma Dhesi: Maybe you've published five, maybe ten.
13:13
Emma Dhesi: Maybe you've got.
13:14
Emma Dhesi: We know some indie authors that have got hundreds of books.
13:17
Emma Dhesi: So no matter where you are, this is a kind of acknowledgement for yourself or an awareness for yourself of where you are on that and kind of looking back at where you've been and acknowledging and being good with that and then seeing, okay, this is where I've still got this way to go.
13:34
Emma Dhesi: And that.
13:34
Emma Dhesi: That is good, too.
13:35
Emma Dhesi: So just having a kind of awareness that, you know, it's like, I used to be an actor, and it reminds me of that a lot.
13:42
Emma Dhesi: You never know everything.
13:43
Emma Dhesi: You're always going to be learning more, whether it's in the same performance, in the same play, the same run, or it's a new production.
13:49
Emma Dhesi: It's the same for us with every book that we write, every podcast interview we do, every blog post we write.
13:56
Emma Dhesi: Whatever it is, we're somewhere on that.
13:58
Emma Dhesi: And it's nice to have just an awareness of where we are in that space.
14:02
Rachel: Yeah. Would you say so?
14:02
Rachel: One thing that's coming to mind for me is there's, like, in my past life, before Golden May, I worked in the corporate world, and we.
14:13
Rachel: There's all this chatter about identifying skill gaps.
14:16
Rachel: You know, like, you have to be aware of where are your areas to grow.
14:20
Rachel: Do you feel like that's part of this?
14:20
Rachel: Of Thinking like, okay, I know, I know I'm kind of new to this, but I want to be aware of where my quote, weaknesses are or like, what are my skill gaps or what do I need to learn.
14:32
Rachel: Is that part of this awareness conversation?
14:35
Emma Dhesi: I think it probably is for some people who, who have that kind of analytical approach to things.
14:42
Emma Dhesi: I wonder that they do and they, they do recognize and that, oh, I.
14:48
Emma Dhesi: I don't know how to do dialogue very well, therefore, I want to do better at it.
14:51
Emma Dhesi: Or I don't know how to market my books very well, so I want to get better at that.
14:55
Emma Dhesi: I'm really shy.
14:56
Emma Dhesi: I don't like doing podcasts.
14:58
Emma Dhesi: I need to get better at doing that.
15:00
Emma Dhesi: But I think I would wonder.
15:03
Emma Dhesi: I think it is for most people, though, or certainly the most of the writers I've come in contact with, it is a more organic thing.
15:10
Emma Dhesi: And it's maybe not a sort of stated out loud, but as they read their own work or they read the work of friends and other people and they admire what that person's doing, then they may be kind of unconsciously are trying to sort of stretch themselves a little bit.
15:25
Emma Dhesi: But for sure, I mean, I'm thinking about myself right now.
15:29
Emma Dhesi: I'm revising a book right now, and I just want to make the beginnings better.
15:35
Emma Dhesi: My beginnings tend to be a bit slow, and I know that I need to pick those up.
15:39
Emma Dhesi: So I'm consciously going out and looking for either the blog post or the training or the workshop I can do that's going to help me with that.
15:46
Emma Dhesi: And I think that there is.
15:49
Emma Dhesi: I think it does depend on your, your personality type, whether you're going to be okay.
15:54
Emma Dhesi: I actually see the gap and I want to make it trickier.
15:58
Emma Dhesi: But if we don't see it, it's probably something bit more organic that we work towards and feel our way through.
16:04
Rachel: Yeah, that makes sense.
16:05
Emma Dhesi: I wonder if there's a correlation between planners and pants.
16:11
Rachel: I'm a total pantser.
16:13
Rachel: So I'm like, I am not planning this at all, but I'm thinking in my head like, okay, if I'm going to.
16:19
Rachel: If I'm stepping into the writing space and I want to build this awareness, how what does that look like?
16:27
Rachel: To be more aware of myself in my current experience?
16:33
Rachel: You know, that's what I was thinking of.
16:34
Rachel: Like, okay, if I want to build awareness, where do I start?
16:39
Emma Dhesi: I'm not.
16:40
Emma Dhesi: Do you build awareness?
16:41
Emma Dhesi: I think it's, yeah, maybe you do, but just sort of slowly over time as you realize, you know, the more output that you have.
16:47
Emma Dhesi: The more that you write, the more you're aware of what you're doing well.
16:50
Emma Dhesi: And then you also become more aware of what you're not doing to the standard that you want it to be at.
16:57
Emma Dhesi: So certainly within the writing itself, I think if it comes to the things that are around the writing, the publishing and the marketing side of it, that's probably where we can be less emotional and less in our heads and can kind of see in a more objective way.
17:12
Emma Dhesi: Okay, I need to figure out how to do these Facebook ads or these Amazon ads.
17:16
Emma Dhesi: I need to figure out how to create a podcast, if that's what I want to do.
17:21
Emma Dhesi: How do I work out these aggregators?
17:21
Emma Dhesi: How, you know, what, what does that look like?
17:25
Emma Dhesi: How do I get my book to Europe or to America or to wherever.
17:28
Emma Dhesi: So that would be, I'd say, a more objective level of awareness, but in terms of the writing, I would suggest that that is a bit more organic.
17:37
Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:41
Rachel: Sitting down, looking at yourself, what am I doing?
17:44
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:47
Emma Dhesi: And I think that feeds into the second pillar, actually, which is acceptance.
17:53
Emma Dhesi: So it's one thing to kind of be aware of where you sit, but if you're anything like me, you're always chomping after the next thing.
18:00
Emma Dhesi: What's next, what's next?
18:01
Emma Dhesi: What's next?
18:02
Emma Dhesi: Trying to chase that next.
18:03
Emma Dhesi: The grass is always greener, right?
18:05
Emma Dhesi: I'm always like, okay, I've written this one, quick, get it out, let's get on to the next one.
18:10
Emma Dhesi: And this is something I'm having to learn as we speak.
18:14
Emma Dhesi: But just that acceptance of where I am, it's where I'm meant to be right now and that's okay.
18:20
Emma Dhesi: So sort of similar to the idea of, you know, you stay in your lane or avoid comparisonitis.
18:26
Emma Dhesi: So kind of you're where you're at because you've been doing writing for how this length of time, and you've been able to devote this amount of time to it for the last five years or whatever it might be.
18:36
Emma Dhesi: Or maybe you've shifted genres, you're having to learn something new, or maybe you're writing as well as doing author services, so you're being stretched out a bit further than you would ideally like to be.
18:48
Emma Dhesi: So all of these things come into play, but this is where you're meant to be right now.
18:52
Emma Dhesi: And that is okay because I sometimes look at some of my friends and how well they're doing, and I think, you know, why can't I get that deal?
19:02
Emma Dhesi: Or why Can't I get that review or wish I'd written that, or I wish I'd appeared on that podcast or I'd appeared on that summit, or I'd been a guest here?
19:11
Emma Dhesi: But I just have to know that if I keep doing my thing and I keep doing the work and keep plodding on, I will get there, too.
19:20
Emma Dhesi: And I think that's something I just want to kind of highlight about the acceptance pillar that's not about sitting back and going, well, it'll happen when it's meant to happen.
19:31
Emma Dhesi: I'll just sit here and wait.
19:32
Emma Dhesi: We do need to do the work, and we do need to keep thinking about it and keep going forward.
19:37
Emma Dhesi: But rather than berating ourselves for not being as advanced as we thought we might be five years ago, that, well, this is.
19:46
Emma Dhesi: This is the way it is, and I just need to keep going, and I either accept it and be happy with that or accept it's not where I want and then I get to change something as well.
19:57
Rachel: Yeah.
19:57
Emma Dhesi: Yeah.
19:58
Emily: I feel like I see authors struggle with this a lot when it comes to goal setting because there's so much like, there's both the sort of external expectations, right.
20:08
Emily: Of, like, how.
20:09
Emily: How fast are other people writing books?
20:09
Emily: Or, like, how many books do they have out?
20:13
Emily: Or how successful are their books?
20:13
Emily: Right.
20:15
Emily: By XYZ standard.
20:16
Emily: But then there's also that inner pressure of, like, we write books because we want them to be in the world.
20:22
Emily: We want people to read them and like them.
20:24
Emily: Right?
20:24
Emily: And there's like.
20:25
Emily: But books take a really long time, especially if you're new to writing books.
20:29
Emily: You have to learn how to write one while you're writing one.
20:32
Emily: And so people get impatient, I think, and, like, the acceptance of not only where are you?
20:36
Emily: But also, like, how fast can you, like, do you actually want to write this book?
20:42
Emily: Like, how fast are you capable of writing this book?
20:44
Emily: How fast is your life going to let you.
20:46
Emily: Right.
20:46
Emily: Like, those types of acceptance things, I think can be really difficult just because we're so passionate about the projects and fighting external hustle expectations.
20:58
Emma Dhesi: Yeah. Yeah. It was Crystal Hunt.
21:02
Emma Dhesi: I think it was C.J. hunt who kind of helped me have sort of crystallized this.
21:06
Emma Dhesi: And, you know, she was talking about how if you want to write, you know, if you're the type of writer who has three or four projects on the go and you love that variety, there's nothing wrong with that.
21:17
Emma Dhesi: That is great.
21:18
Emma Dhesi: You go for it.
21:19
Emma Dhesi: But then there has to be a level of acceptance that it's going to be Slower, then it's just going to take you longer to get where you want to go.
21:26
Emma Dhesi: But if you are like these really, you know, very determined writers who are in one genre, they know exactly how that genre works.
21:37
Emma Dhesi: And they are publishing, what, ten books a year.
21:41
Emma Dhesi: They've got so, so many books that they're publishing.
21:43
Emma Dhesi: They're further ahead because they're absolutely focused and they're writing for eight hours a day, and they are doing the marketing that they need to do and all the things that come with that.
21:51
Emma Dhesi: And so, of course, it looks like they're having this success that is coming out of nowhere, but it's not coming out of nowhere.
21:59
Emma Dhesi: They've accepted, okay, this is what I want to do.
22:02
Emma Dhesi: This is what.
22:03
Emma Dhesi: This is my driver.
22:04
Emma Dhesi: And often it is a financial driver.
22:06
Emma Dhesi: I need to earn this amount of money to pay my mortgage, support my kids, and so I have to take this path in order to get there.
22:14
Emma Dhesi: And that was a really clarifying moment for me because I feel a bit scattered quite often.
22:19
Emma Dhesi: And so it's like, oh, okay, yeah, that's fine.
22:22
Emma Dhesi: Then I can.
22:22
Emma Dhesi: I can accept that it's just going to take me a bit longer, but if I keep doing the work, then I'll.
22:27
Emma Dhesi: I'll get there.
22:28
Rachel: Yeah, yeah, I. I like to think of those things.
22:32
Rachel: Okay, so there's a class that we teach about developing a sustainable writing life.
22:37
Rachel: And part of that class is that there are parts of your life that you just can't change.
22:41
Rachel: Right. Like there.
22:42
Rachel: And we call them practical disruptors.
22:45
Rachel: Like, practical disruptors to the routine, such as, I have a mortgage, so I have to work.
22:50
Rachel: You know, like, you can't change that reality.
22:52
Rachel: You have.
22:52
Rachel: Some people have kids, you have kids, you have to take care of them.
22:55
Rachel: You're a caretaker, you have responsibilities, or you have chronic illness or, you know, whatever.
23:00
Rachel: It looks like there are parts of your life that.
23:03
Rachel: That you cannot change that are going to interrupt your writing.
23:07
Rachel: And I see so many parallels to this of, like, you have to.
23:10
Rachel: There's.
23:11
Rachel: You just have to accept that to some degree.
23:14
Rachel: The other part that we talk about in that class is like, then there's like the belief disruptors, like, the mindset that if you dealt with those, the practical disruptors would be less disrupting.
23:26
Rachel: And, like, then you can start to get some movement going.
23:30
Rachel: So there's so many different pieces of this, but you're right.
23:32
Rachel: Like, there are.
23:33
Rachel: There are parts of our writing lives that we just have to accept, and parts of our lives that we just accept.
23:39
Rachel: And you build the pillars to success.
23:42
Rachel: Like you build the path to success around those things.
23:46
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, 100%.
23:47
Emma Dhesi: Yeah. And that mindset, you're right, that is such a big part of it.
23:50
Emma Dhesi: And if we find ourselves getting frustrated by these disruptors, then we're going to get more and more angsty and more and more closed down in our creativity.
24:00
Emma Dhesi: But if we can find a way to embrace it or accept it, we'll come.
24:04
Emma Dhesi: When we do get to the desk, we'll be so much more relaxed and open and creative.
24:09
Emma Dhesi: Yeah. Oh, I love that you teach that.
24:10
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, yeah.
24:14
Emma Dhesi: So our third pillar then.
24:16
Emma Dhesi: This is the hardest pillar and probably the pillar we stay in the longest, which is the growth pillar.
24:23
Emma Dhesi: So this is where you, you have to sit down, get your bum in the seat and do the work.
24:27
Emma Dhesi: And it's the bit that nobody really wants to do.
24:32
Emma Dhesi: We want to have done it already.
24:34
Emma Dhesi: And I, I think this is where a lot of people fall down.
24:38
Emma Dhesi: Because it is hard work, isn't it?
24:38
Emma Dhesi: You know, we have to get down and write even when we don't feel like it, when we don't know what we're going to write, when we've been up all night with kids or there's a million and one distractions during the day.
24:50
Emma Dhesi: But we've got to stay on track because maybe we've got a deadline, whether that's to an editor or whether that's because you've got something in pre order and you've got to get through it.
24:59
Emma Dhesi: But the growth comes in all of these phases.
25:02
Emma Dhesi: And if we're thinking about, say a writer who's right at the beginning, I mean, there's just growth all over the place, isn't there, that you cannot escape it.
25:10
Emma Dhesi: Everything is about growth in that.
25:13
Emma Dhesi: How?
25:13
Emma Dhesi: Even the small things like punctuation and grammar.
25:16
Emma Dhesi: How does that work?
25:16
Emma Dhesi: Because some of my clients come in who are earlier on in their careers and their writing and they're still getting some of the fundamentals, you know, not quite there.
25:27
Emma Dhesi: So we have to do a little bit with that.
25:29
Emma Dhesi: But then, you know, how do you structure a written sentence that's got dialogue in it then?
25:34
Emma Dhesi: Not to mention how do you then structure a whole story and the beats that you're looking for?
25:40
Emma Dhesi: And how do you have that character arc as well as the plotline?
25:43
Emma Dhesi: It's a loss of growth in those early years.
25:47
Emma Dhesi: But say you are a bit further down the line as well, and you've been writing a series in one of the many romance subgenres, but you decide, okay, I want to change or actually I want to change altogether.
25:59
Emma Dhesi: And I'm thinking of Alessandra Torre, who started off in the romance market, but she'd always wanted to write thriller.
26:08
Emma Dhesi: So then she took a new pen name and made a big switch and learned this whole new genre.
26:12
Emma Dhesi: So she had a growth period to go through, then the other end, when the book's out, and then you've got that growth of learning how to reach out to people, whether it be to agents, because you want to go traditional, whether it be to other indie authors, you want to do a blog post with them or do a collaboration with them, and figuring out all the tech that comes along with that.
26:33
Emma Dhesi: So at every stage that we go through, from the writing to the publishing to the marketing, there's a lot of growth.
26:41
Emma Dhesi: And I too, that a lot of people will.
26:47
Emma Dhesi: They get that fear of finishing the book and paralysis.
26:52
Emma Dhesi: Yeah. Because then, oh, my gosh, well, then I'll have to market it and then I'll have to go and talk to people about it and say, and sell it.
26:58
Emma Dhesi: Gotta ask.
27:01
Emma Dhesi: And that can be a real hindrance to people.
27:04
Emma Dhesi: So for me, the growth is like the biggest part.
27:07
Emma Dhesi: It can be the most fun part as well.
27:09
Emma Dhesi: Like, there's a lot of achievement that comes out of that.
27:13
Emma Dhesi: You know, if you've had a, you know yourself and you've had a difficult scene that you've been trying to figure out, how do I get this person either into trouble or out of trouble?
27:21
Emma Dhesi: And you nail it and you're like, oh, that feels good.
27:24
Emma Dhesi: And it gives you that.
27:25
Emma Dhesi: That buzz to keep on going.
27:27
Emma Dhesi: But for sure, I find I find growth the hardest as well as probably the most beneficial.
27:35
Emily: Yeah.
27:36
Emma Dhesi: And then the final pillar is fun.
27:38
Emma Dhesi: The fun pillar.
27:39
Emily: And I think I love that that's a pillar.
27:42
Emma Dhesi: We forget, don't we?
27:42
Emma Dhesi: We forget, celebrate little tiny wins.
27:46
Emma Dhesi: Like, I finished the first draft.
27:48
Emma Dhesi: I nailed that difficult scene.
27:51
Emma Dhesi: Two characters had to have a difficult conversation, and I didn't know what it was going to look like.
27:55
Emma Dhesi: But I've done it.
27:56
Emma Dhesi: I've found an editor that I like.
27:59
Emma Dhesi: That's a win as well.
28:00
Emma Dhesi: Okay. I've published the book, done my first podcast interview.
28:04
Emma Dhesi: I've set up my first ad.
28:06
Emma Dhesi: I have made my first sale.
28:08
Emma Dhesi: All of those little things, we want to take a moment just to acknowledge them.
28:12
Emma Dhesi: And even, you know, a book launching, it doesn't have to be a big fanfare.
28:17
Emma Dhesi: It can be a small thing, but just as long as you as the writer acknowledge it and kind of go, well done.
28:24
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, I've wanted to do this all my life.
28:27
Emma Dhesi: And finally I have go, me.
28:29
Emma Dhesi: I'm going to have that extra piece of cake or I'm going to take my family out for dinner or buy that bottle of champagne.
28:34
Emma Dhesi: But acknowledge the work that you've put in and the growth that you've been through in order to get to that fun pillar.
28:42
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:45
Emily: The journey of starting a book, writing a book, publishing a book, then marketing a book forever.
28:50
Emily: Right.
28:51
Emily: It just feels like it's never ending.
28:53
Emily: And so every time you reach a milestone, it's like, well, there's, you know, the next one's immediately in front of you to strive for.
29:00
Emily: And I think, yeah, the reminder to, like, stop and celebrate is so important.
29:06
Emily: It's so important.
29:07
Emily: And reflect.
29:07
Emily: Reflect on how far you've come.
29:09
Emily: Because it's so easy to be like, you know, you're on your third book and you're starting the first draft, and you're like, I don't know how to do this.
29:15
Emily: How did I ever do this before?
29:15
Emily: You know?
29:17
Emily: But, like, looking back and saying, no, you.
29:19
Emily: You can do it.
29:19
Emily: It's just the process.
29:21
Emily: So important.
29:22
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, it is.
29:23
Emma Dhesi: It's a process, isn't it?
29:24
Emma Dhesi: I like that.
29:26
Emma Dhesi: And I went to a conference recently, an entrepreneurial conference.
29:31
Emma Dhesi: And again, it was the same thing there.
29:33
Emma Dhesi: You know, she was.
29:34
Emma Dhesi: The lady was talking mostly to people who are brand new.
29:37
Emma Dhesi: And now that I'm a few years in, some of the things she was talking about, I was like, oh, no, I've been through that phase.
29:42
Emma Dhesi: I've nailed that.
29:43
Emma Dhesi: Oh, okay.
29:44
Emma Dhesi: I'm not quite the beginner that I once was.
29:46
Emma Dhesi: And just to myself, to be able to kind of go, that feels good.
29:50
Emma Dhesi: That feels nice.
29:51
Emma Dhesi: Okay. I am learning.
29:52
Emma Dhesi: Even when it doesn't always feel like it, I am learning, and I am progressing and moving forward.
29:58
Rachel: Yeah. Oh, go ahead.
30:02
Emma Dhesi: No, I was just gonna say, I just.
30:03
Emma Dhesi: I wonder if people are listening to this and they're thinking, oh, but this is just for newbie writers, all of this.
30:08
Emma Dhesi: It's not for people who are more established.
30:11
Emma Dhesi: And so I thought I might just give two quick examples of people who are at the top of your game who are taking on the growth pillar.
30:18
Emma Dhesi: And so one would be Harlan Coben, thriller writer.
30:21
Emma Dhesi: He's just rocking it right now.
30:24
Emma Dhesi: All of his Netflix adaptations, his book sales are amazing.
30:29
Emma Dhesi: He's just having the time of his life, and he could just kind of sit back and never have to pick up a pen again.
30:35
Emma Dhesi: But he's now, I don't know if he is in the States but he's certainly in the uk.
30:38
Emma Dhesi: He's part of the master class or my school series.
30:45
Emma Dhesi: He's teaching.
30:46
Emma Dhesi: He's teaching how to write a psychological thriller and going through all of that.
30:50
Emma Dhesi: So that will be a new skill for him, learning how to take what he knows out of his head and put it down on paper and then say it to camera and kind of give examples and share what he's doing.
31:00
Emma Dhesi: So I'm sure he's having a lot of fun with it as well.
31:02
Emma Dhesi: When I follow him on socials, and he seems to just be having the best time.
31:06
Emma Dhesi: So there's that fun.
31:07
Emma Dhesi: And then another thriller author that I love is Lisa Jewell.
31:13
Emma Dhesi: And she's so good.
31:15
Emma Dhesi: So good.
31:16
Emma Dhesi: She's been writing standalone fiction for 20 years, and she's made some changes.
31:22
Emma Dhesi: She started off in Rom com, and then she's made that switch into the psychological thriller suspense area.
31:29
Emma Dhesi: But now Marvel asked her, will you come in and write a book from our franchise?
31:34
Emma Dhesi: One of our franchises?
31:34
Emma Dhesi: And she thought, oh, that sounds fun.
31:38
Emma Dhesi: That'll be new.
31:39
Emma Dhesi: That'll be a stretch.
31:41
Emma Dhesi: And so she went in and she did it.
31:43
Emma Dhesi: And I saw at the Edinburgh Book Festival this year, and she was like, never again.
31:50
Rachel: It again.
31:51
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, it brought its own challenges.
31:53
Emma Dhesi: So even though she's an experienced storyteller going into someone else's world, and she was saying that the.
32:00
Emma Dhesi: Because it's in a sort of multiverse superhero world, there's no limits.
32:05
Rachel: Yeah.
32:06
Emma Dhesi: So actually, that was a struggle she had, was a, where do I cap this?
32:09
Emma Dhesi: Where are the boundaries?
32:09
Emma Dhesi: So she found it very hard and she said, yeah, no, I'll go back to what I know.
32:14
Emma Dhesi: So it's good to try these things, stretch yourself.
32:16
Emma Dhesi: And it's okay if you find.
32:18
Emma Dhesi: Actually, that's not what I wanted in the end.
32:20
Rachel: Yeah. I'm actually glad that you mentioned that, because one of the things I'm thinking is it sounds like these pillars can be very cyclical.
32:27
Rachel: So for, for example, like these, you know the.
32:31
Rachel: The author you mentioned first, Harlan Cobin.
32:33
Rachel: What is that his name?
32:34
Emma Dhesi: Yeah.
32:35
Rachel: I'm sure he did not wait to reach the fun pillar until he hit his most recent.
32:40
Rachel: You know, like these.
32:42
Rachel: We don't need to put off celebrating our successes.
32:46
Rachel: Your success is probably going to change.
32:48
Rachel: Your measurement for success is probably going to change and probably going to shift.
32:52
Rachel: And the more that you change it, the more these.
32:55
Rachel: The more that they change, or the more we can go back to square one of.
32:59
Rachel: As soon as you move that.
33:00
Rachel: That milestone, go back through the pillars you know, where are you?
33:04
Rachel: How close are we?
33:05
Rachel: What does it look like?
33:05
Rachel: And what is my life going on and what do I need to accept in this period?
33:10
Rachel: And then through growth and back to fun.
33:14
Rachel: I've seen plenty of writers shift their measurement of success subconsciously without being aware of it, and then forget to ever recognize and have fun throughout the process, recognize how far they've come, and then have fun with it.
33:29
Rachel: They're just always chasing the next thing without being, oh, all of a sudden I wanted to write a first draft that was my biggest measurement of success.
33:37
Rachel: And then all of a sudden I want to be like a best selling author.
33:40
Rachel: There's a big gap between those things, right?
33:40
Rachel: Like, we don't just skip some.
33:46
Rachel: If you want to start with that goal, great.
33:47
Rachel: But I mean, like, there's steps that go, go through this process too.
33:52
Emma Dhesi: Yeah. Oh, for sure.
33:54
Emma Dhesi: I think we can go through all of these pillars in one day, depending on what we're working on.
33:59
Rachel: They're there.
34:00
Emma Dhesi: It's just a part of our psyche.
34:02
Emma Dhesi: But the reason I kind of want to share about this is because I, I think a lot of writers will feel that they're the only ones going through this, particularly the growth period and maybe even that kind of acceptance or lack of acceptance of where they are.
34:17
Emma Dhesi: I know that that has certainly been me a lot of the time.
34:19
Emma Dhesi: And so, you know, I've found, certainly when I see something written down, I've gone, oh, okay, someone's put this down on black and white.
34:27
Emma Dhesi: That means that other people go through it too.
34:29
Emma Dhesi: And it's not just me.
34:30
Emma Dhesi: I'm not, I'm not the failure that I keep telling myself I am.
34:34
Emma Dhesi: And if I hadn't made it, and I'll tell you what, I go through this in my entrepreneurial life all the time.
34:39
Emma Dhesi: If I haven't reached this level of what I'm deeming to be success by this point, then, oh, I'm a failure.
34:46
Emma Dhesi: Or, you know, it's all on me.
34:48
Emma Dhesi: If it's, it will be the same with some with their books.
34:50
Emma Dhesi: But actually this is something that we all go through and, you know, we, that's why we have coaches, because we, we need to be reassured by them and we need to be reminded by them that this is part of the process.
35:02
Emma Dhesi: If you give up now, you'll never get through it.
35:04
Emma Dhesi: And up to that next one where those goal posts change because you've stretched yourself, you stretched your comfort zone, you're ready for that next milestone.
35:13
Emma Dhesi: And so we need those coaches to help us Stay on track and keep going and pull us back off that ledge.
35:19
Emma Dhesi: So that's really the main reason that I kind of wanted to shout this out loud is so that people know we all go through it.
35:27
Rachel: Yeah, absolutely, we do.
35:29
Rachel: And I think I love how this is incorporated into your coaching practice, because I think on our side, it's pretty easy as a coach to recognize when your writer needs some acceptance.
35:42
Rachel: Right.
35:44
Rachel: When we're in the growth phase.
35:46
Rachel: But it's not always easy to see that in yourself.
35:50
Rachel: So it's really helpful to have that coach alongside the journey with you to be like, hey, we need this right now.
35:57
Rachel: Let's try to get to this spot.
35:59
Rachel: Or, hey, I think we should.
36:00
Rachel: We're in the growth category.
36:01
Rachel: Here's some resources that we can grow together, and I can help you grow and show you.
36:06
Rachel: And I also think, like, having someone to.
36:10
Rachel: To challenge you to have fun is really important.
36:14
Rachel: I can't tell you how many times, like, my clients will finish something, and I'll be like, so what are you doing to celebrate?
36:18
Rachel: And they're like, I don't know.
36:23
Rachel: No, you have to tell me right now.
36:25
Emma Dhesi: I have some tea.
36:26
Rachel: Exactly.
36:26
Rachel: I had some tea.
36:27
Rachel: I went for a walk.
36:28
Rachel: I'm like, these are great things, but what are we doing to celebrate?
36:34
Rachel: I think that's amazing that you're able to keep your eye on these pillars for your clients and guide them through them.
36:42
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, it's the gift of having a coach, isn't it?
36:44
Emma Dhesi: And I need that as well, for my own entrepreneurial side and also from my own storytelling side as well.
36:50
Emma Dhesi: You know, I'm as human as the next person.
36:52
Emma Dhesi: So I, you know, every coach needs a coach.
36:54
Emma Dhesi: So I. I reach out to people.
36:58
Rachel: Well, awesome.
36:59
Rachel: So that we've got, like, you've got some things coming up as far as, you know, what.
37:04
Rachel: What's on your schedule?
37:06
Rachel: How can people find you?
37:07
Emma Dhesi: How?
37:08
Rachel: Where.
37:08
Rachel: Where do we get through the growth category?
37:11
Emily: Where do we learn more?
37:12
Rachel: Where do we learn more?
37:14
Emma Dhesi: Well, thank you very much for asking.
37:16
Emma Dhesi: I have an upcoming summit called be a bestseller 6.0.
37:22
Emma Dhesi: Back to basics.
37:23
Emma Dhesi: So, as the title suggests, this is the sixth one of these summits.
37:27
Emma Dhesi: I can't believe it's been going this long.
37:29
Rachel: That's awesome.
37:30
Emily: Amazing.
37:30
Emily: We've been in a few of them, and they are fantastic.
37:33
Emma Dhesi: You have.
37:34
Emma Dhesi: I think you've been in two of them, and you are always a big hit.
37:37
Emma Dhesi: Always a big hit with our listeners.
37:40
Emma Dhesi: So, yeah, I've got 27 people coming in, experts of various different topics coming in to talk about.
37:47
Emma Dhesi: We're looking at story fundamentals.
37:49
Emma Dhesi: We're going really going, trying to get back to basics here and thinking about what's at the heart of storytelling.
37:55
Emma Dhesi: So we're looking at simple points of view.
37:57
Emma Dhesi: We're looking at story structures and story types.
38:02
Emma Dhesi: I've just been talking to an amazing woman called Rochelle Ramirez who's been talking about story types and I love that we're talking about this because I don't think it's something that's discussed very often.
38:13
Emma Dhesi: A lot of people talk about genre and they talk about story structure, but actually story types is something a little bit kind of in between those two and covers all the different genres.
38:24
Emma Dhesi: So we're looking at scene structure.
38:26
Emma Dhesi: What else are we looking at?
38:26
Emma Dhesi: We are looking at coaching.
38:31
Emma Dhesi: You know how a coach can help you, especially at the beginning when you kind of maybe needing a little bit of hand holding along the way.
38:38
Emma Dhesi: We're looking at mindset.
38:39
Emma Dhesi: Of course, as you guys know, that is a huge, huge part of any author's success.
38:46
Emma Dhesi: However they deem that talking about time management because that is something that everybody is battling with all the time.
38:55
Emma Dhesi: And towards the end, I think I'm going to put this towards the end we're going to have just a little bit about just to get people excited that when they're either finished or getting towards the end of that first draft that they can start maybe thinking about their author platform, maybe start thinking about revision, start thinking about mailing lists and finding readers.
39:15
Emma Dhesi: Not that they necessarily have to jump into it.
39:18
Emma Dhesi: But I do think it's important even for our back to basics that it's in the zeitgeist that we have an awareness about it.
39:25
Emma Dhesi: Because at some stage we are going to have to step into that if we want people to read our books at the end of the day.
39:31
Emma Dhesi: So yes, that's going to be be a bestseller 6.0 back to basics.
39:36
Emma Dhesi: And I will be providing a link for that for the show notes when the time comes.
39:40
Rachel: Awesome.
39:41
Rachel: Yeah, we'll have that in the show notes.
39:43
Rachel: And then what about you?
39:43
Rachel: What's you know, your website, how can we find you on social media?
39:48
Emma Dhesi: So the easiest place to find me is at my website, emma desi.com but honestly, if you google my name you will find me.
39:57
Emma Dhesi: I'm just about the only one that I think there's about seven of us.
40:01
Emma Dhesi: So you'll find me Emma Desi and books or author, you'll find me.
40:05
Emma Dhesi: And I work with authors in two ways.
40:08
Emma Dhesi: I work either doing a 12 month mentorship program where I take women who have got a story idea and we put it all together and so by the end of our time together, they've got that finished first draft, beginning, middle and end.
40:22
Emma Dhesi: So working on the same story for 10, 20, even 30 years and you want to get it finished.
40:29
Emma Dhesi: You're a gal.
40:30
Emma Dhesi: And the other way I help writers is if you've got a manuscript and you're not sure what's working, you're not sure what's not working, then I do a manuscript review for people to give them that structural overview and look at what plot wise is going on, character wise is going on, let you know what is working.
40:48
Emma Dhesi: Because there's always things that are working and then where can we out level that manuscript as well?
40:51
Emma Dhesi: So those are the two ways I help.
40:54
Emma Dhesi: I help writers.
40:55
Emma Dhesi: I love it.
40:56
Rachel: We're going to have links to your website, all the details in the show notes.
41:00
Rachel: So go check it out and join be a bestseller.
41:04
Rachel: We love that event.
41:05
Rachel: I think that's amazing.
41:07
Rachel: I can't wait to see all.
41:08
Rachel: All the speakers lined up and tune in.
41:11
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, it's going to be exciting.
41:12
Emma Dhesi: Exciting times.
41:14
Rachel: Exciting.
41:14
Emily: Thank you so much, Emma, for, for coming and chatting with us again.
41:18
Emily: We always love chatting with you and it's been such a pleasure.
41:22
Emma Dhesi: Yeah, it's been good fun.
41:23
Emma Dhesi: I love seeing you guys too.
41:24
Emma Dhesi: So thank you.
41:25
Rachel: Thank you.
41:26
Emily: Of course, if you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
41:34
Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
41:38
Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
41:43
Emily: Link in the show notes.
41:44
Emily: We'll see you there.