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From Neuroscience to Hollywood: Lessons in Leadership with Dr. Barry Sandrew · Speak In Flow

• 0:03
  Melinda Lee: Welcome. Dear listeners, to the speak and flow podcast where we dive into unique experiences to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow. Today I have the honor of introducing my esteemed guest from Harvard Mgh. Neuroscientist to internationally renowned serial entrepreneur. He's a digital imaging expert visual effects.
• 0:28
  Melinda Lee: Vfh. Pioneer, Dr. Barry Sandre, with over 37 patents and an expert of featured films and TV accomplishments.
• 0:42
  Melinda Lee: Hi, Dr. Sandre, welcome.
• 0:44
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Hi, Melinda!
• 0:46
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Thanks for having me.
• 0:47
  Melinda Lee: Thanks. I am so excited about our conversation today. Before we dive into the meat and potatoes of what we're going to talk about with presentations. You obviously have had so much success in your career, and you're going to share some of the secrets to doing that. But before we get into that. Can you share more about the all the amazing things that you've done so far in the TV industry.
• 1:12
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Yeah, well, I think the highlights are that you know I have. I have my doctorate in neuroscience, and I was on staff at Harvard Medical School and Mass General Hospital
• 1:24
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: and but I didn't let my degree define me. I actually left all of that
• 1:32
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: at the urging of Ted Turner, who invent, who created Cnn.
• 1:38
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: And he asked me to invent a process for colorizing black and white movies so I could save his Mgm. Library from going into public domain, which I did, and that caused a lot of controversy. But the more controversy that occurred, the more successful I became.
• 1:58
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: So I I left Academia and became a serial entrepreneur in Hollywood.
• 2:05
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Did a lot of visual effects like for Scorsese, did the aviator and a few other things.
• 2:11
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: But then, in 2,007, I invented a process for converting movies from 2D. To 3D. Which is the de facto method of creating 3D movies and my team and I produced the 3D portion of about 65% of or 65 of the most successful films that came out of Hollywood.
• 2:37
  Melinda Lee: Wow!
• 2:37
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: In the past 12 years.
• 2:39
  Melinda Lee: And so in all that, how did you know which direction to go?
• 2:44
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: And all that had the.
• 2:47
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: I wish I could tell you there was a grand plan there wasn't. I just take things as they come.
• 2:52
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 2:53
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: I'm able. I'm able to somehow
• 2:56
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: recognize opportunities at the right time
• 3:01
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: and and jump on them, and I'm not afraid to jump on them. I'm not.
• 3:05
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 3:06
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Takes naturally. You know, go the wrong direction. Unfortunately, in most cases I haven't gone the wrong direction.
• 3:14
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. So you see, you're in this challenge here. And so you see the opportunity. You see the problem. And then a solution comes, a a big, a big idea.
• 3:24
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: That's right.
• 3:25
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: What?
• 3:25
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Just recently, in the past year, I just I I was awarded 3 patents in artificial intelligence because I saw a vacuum in education where professors needed to understand the authenticity of a student's responses rather than
• 3:44
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: sleuthing around to see if they're cheating with plagiarism, using chat. Gpt. Well, I created a solution for that. And we're testing that right now at Westcliff University.
• 3:57
  Melinda Lee: Oh, thank goodness, thank goodness! Because my daughter's still in school, and I wonder what they're doing, and how they're monitoring this.
• 4:04
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Oh, this will help!
• 4:06
  Melinda Lee: Oh, that's gonna be great, awesome! How innovative is that! And so with so much success, it didn't come right out the gate. So tell me, what are some times in the past? What? Some of the more difficult times where? Okay? Something didn't go. Well, a presentation didn't go. Well, the team is not performing like you want it to like. Tell me about that.
• 4:28
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: I think that's a good question. It's really easy to explain that, because in early in one of my startups, you know, we were so focused on the technical brilliance of our product that we failed to communicate its value effectively to investors. In particular. This is a classic example of building something amazing, but not testing whether we could convey its relevance to the audience.
• 4:55
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: You know the it's the equivalent of developing a product without validating consumer demand. We didn't know whether consumers actually wanted it
• 5:04
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: yet. We're out there presenting it as the savior of the world.
• 5:10
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: During a critical pitch. Our presentation was overly technical, lacking clear, concise narrative, and that tied product to a real problem and its solution.
• 5:21
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: The result was that the investors were disengaged. We missed out on a major funding opportunity. But the experience taught me and my team the importance of validating
• 5:34
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: or validated learning, not only for the product, but how we present it.
• 5:40
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: You know, we started iterative feedback loops. That's important. Iterative feedback loops
• 5:46
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: to our presentations. So in other words, we put we put it out to potential customers got feedback, you know you, you build, you test and measure, and then you learn and you revise. You have to do that. Otherwise you can present something to a group of people, and they may have no interest in it whatsoever. So this was. This failure was a turning point for me, and it helped me shift my focus from explaining how of the product.
• 6:15
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: and and rather it rather than how of the product. But to demonstrate the why of the product.
• 6:23
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: In this.
• 6:24
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 6:24
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Positioned us for greater success.
• 6:28
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, so much or so many times are we so excited about a product or an idea or service. And we invest all this time all this energy, because we think we're it's going to be the Savior of the world, and we want it to be perfect. We want it to look great, and then by the time you get it out there and you communicate it, people are just like, just glazed over
• 6:51
  Melinda Lee: eyes.
• 6:53
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Eric Eric Reese is a guy who came up with a book called the Lean Startup Framework.
• 7:02
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: And it's it's it's my Bible. Essentially, it's, you know, you don't need a lot of money. You don't need a lot of people to create a startup. You don't need a minimum viable product can be, you know, pocket change to create.
• 7:17
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: that's all you need. Zappo is one company. Look up, Zappo, and how it originated, and and there. There are many other ones like Dropbox is another one. The the Ceos of these 2 companies basically created a minimum viable product
• 7:34
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: in in their bedroom within a couple hours, and they were both 1 billion dollar exits. Ultimately.
• 7:45
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:46
  Melinda Lee: yeah. Okay, what to put the quote and the name of the book in the show notes, too. And I'm gonna pick that up as well, because I I often wonder, am I at the place where I'm spending too much time? Yeah, refining things before getting it out there communicating it. Which is what you're saying is like, build something small, make it minimal viable product. But that's where I don't know. Like, what is minimal. Where do you cross the line? And what threshold.
• 8:12
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Well can I give you those 2 examples? I don't know how much.
• 8:14
  Melinda Lee: Yes.
• 8:16
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: This was early on with the Internet. And this guy, the CEO wanted to sell shoes online
• 8:27
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: and investors no way. People will not buy shoes online. They're gonna want to try them on. Look at that little mirror, test them out, walk around. No one's gonna buy them online. So what he did was he created a website on his own.
• 8:42
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: It was like a little store storefront. and he went to local retailers, shoe retailers, and he took pictures of their shoes, and he posted it on their website.
• 8:55
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: and he took orders for those shoes, even though he didn't own them with somebody else's, and if somebody bought them
• 9:02
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: he would go to the retailer, buy them at full retail, and then send them ship them out to the people. So he proved, and it was very successful. He proved that it actually worked. I think he sold that company ultimately for 1 point 3 billion dollars to Amazon. Dropbox is another one dropbox. The CEO never wrote one line of code. There were. There were file sharing companies around applications around, but none of them like quite like Dropbox.
• 9:32
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Well, he actually did a mock up of what it would look like to do. You know, basically very basic, no programming or anything. And he created a video out of that and and posted it on a techie site with hundreds of thousands of of viewers.
• 9:48
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: And overnight he got 75,000 sign ups.
• 9:54
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: That that, and there again that company was sold, for, you know, millions of dollars.
• 9:58
  Melinda Lee: So if someone's going at it for about a year, 2 years, and that means there's probably not a good market for it.
• 10:06
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Oh, way too long.
• 10:10
  Melinda Lee: Okay. Okay.
• 10:12
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: If you can't get traction within 6 months, forget it. You gotta go do something else.
• 10:17
  Melinda Lee: Okay, got it. Got it. This is very helpful. I love that. I love that so like you're saying, you know, get the traction or test it and then use good communication. Assuming that you, you learn how to communicate it, like what is, you have the product or service, but then also communicate it. Well, like what are, what are the things that you're saying.
• 10:36
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: You'll have to. Actually, you have to define your your customer base. We'll find out whether what your product people actually want it. I've I've I've had a lot of clients because I also do a lot of consulting. I have a lot of clients who you know, who started to do a who created a startup and
• 10:57
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: got a lot of money and built the entire application the web before they even knew if anybody was going to use it.
• 11:06
  Melinda Lee: Right? Right? Right?
• 11:07
  Melinda Lee: Who waste time?
• 11:09
  Melinda Lee: Right? Right?
• 11:11
  Melinda Lee: Right? So don't do that. Build the Mvp minimal viable product. And then talk about the why talk more about the why?
• 11:19
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: And test it, and actually.
• 11:21
  Melinda Lee: That's it.
• 11:21
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Up there and test and see if anybody's interested, and and also
• 11:26
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: you know, it's it's like showing a a crayon picture that you show your mom your mom's gonna say, oh, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I love what you did. Ask people whether they would like it, or whether they want to buy it. If there's no, if there's nothing invested from those people, then their their opinion doesn't really matter.
• 11:48
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: So even if it's even if it's if they if they just log on and say, Okay, I'm signing on. That's good, even if they don't put in. But as long as they put their name in there, and they sign on. Alright. Well, that's legitimate. Yes, you've got something.
• 12:03
  Melinda Lee: Right?
• 12:04
  Melinda Lee: Right? Right?
• 12:06
  Melinda Lee: Love that. And what is the difference between? Once you started to learn this and implement this across your teams or across what you're doing. What was the result of that? What were the outcomes.
• 12:18
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Well, the result is a a total I mean much more efficient startup operation and and basically more success. You know,
• 12:29
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: The we we we spend less time, you know. Spinning our wheels and more time just finding out
• 12:38
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: where, what the what the customer, what your your client, what your customer ultimately wants.
• 12:45
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Even if you just describe it. And you say, Okay, you know, we'd like to know if you'd commit to getting something like this, would you actually submit a a signature for a sign on, you know, that's all you need. That's all you need, because then investors will say, Okay, well, there might be something there.
• 13:04
  Melinda Lee: Hmm! Right? Right? Right? Right?
• 13:07
  Melinda Lee: What do you think holds people back from doing it?
• 13:12
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Ego
• 13:14
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: a lot of times, you know. I'll tell somebody, you know. No, don't go to Southeast Asia and get this thing totally developed. Don't spend $150,000 to build this this web this website that shows off and and actually has a functional application before you even know if anybody wants to do it.
• 13:35
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: and and the fact in in but the several times, you know. my clients have said, no, this is the way I want to go, because how are people going to know what it's going to be like if I don't actually show them? Well, there are different ways to show them, you know, just like I showed you. I told you about zappos and and and
• 13:57
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: you can for pennies.
• 14:00
  Melinda Lee: Right, right.
• 14:01
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: And to do it.
• 14:02
  Melinda Lee: Right? That's the key, like, think outside the box of how we can show them without really developing the whole thing.
• 14:09
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: That's right.
• 14:09
  Melinda Lee: There's other ways you can do it. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
• 14:13
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 14:15
  Melinda Lee: love that. So then and then, so what? Okay, I'm gonna just end with one last question, because I think that there's so much value in what you just shared. And I certainly learned a lot in terms of getting the Mvp. Out there, communicating the value to your ideal clients. Who are the clients?
• 14:33
  Melinda Lee: What is it that they want? And then communicating that in a way, more of the why versus the technical pieces of it like, why is it important to you? Why, why, how's this gonna help you? And communicating those aspects of it.
• 14:47
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Exactly.
• 14:48
  Melinda Lee: And then, therefore, you're gonna be able to have more success, or is a very clear strategy and a way of building a company or a business.
• 14:55
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: That's right.
• 14:57
  Melinda Lee: Thank you, and what I'd like to ask you the last question I like to ask all my guests, what is that one leadership takeaway that you want the guests to remember.
• 15:08
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: No?
• 15:10
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Well.
• 15:11
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: to me leadership in a startup. And I'm I'm focused mainly on startups because I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've had a lot of success with startups. Leadership in a startup is is about building a critical mass of loyalists and believers
• 15:25
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: who share your vision, even if they don't have specific expertise in, you know, it really doesn't matter. I I took, you know, high school students to, you know, directly into my company, and they became the leads and and the executive management ultimately, and my various startup exploring uncharted territory and the most transformative progress came from working with people who weren't afraid to roll up their sleeves, take on
• 15:54
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: any roles outside their comfort zone, which is really important outside their comfort zone, and to experiment with
• 16:01
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: unproven ideas.
• 16:03
  Melinda Lee: A. A textbook. Organizational structure in a startup is the fool's task.
• 16:08
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: If you, if you create a you know, an organizational structure, high hierarchy, you're wasting your time. Instead, you need
• 16:17
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: the courage to embrace uncertainty
• 16:21
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: and trying to approaches. This ties directly to not being afraid to take calculated risk. Failure.
• 16:29
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: I always tell my students is the most powerful learning tool, and John Maxwell was the famous is a famous lecture and and leadership expert. He puts it, fail early, fail often, but always fail forward. The key.
• 16:45
  Melinda Lee: Awesome.
• 16:46
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Is to create a culture where failure isn't seen as a dead end, but as a step toward innovation.
• 16:53
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: every setback
• 16:55
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: offers an opportunity to learn, iterate and improve. If you don't take a risk. If you don't put yourself out there and take a risk, you will fail 99% of the time you will fail
• 17:08
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: as a leader. Your role is to encourage these risks, support your team.
• 17:12
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 17:13
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Things don't go planned and keep everyone aligned to the mission.
• 17:17
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 17:18
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: In the lean, startup framework. There's build, measure. Learn cycle from the lean start. It's not just for products. It's for people, processes and strategies. Leadership is about fostering a relentless belief in forward progress where every failure moves you closer to success.
• 17:38
  Melinda Lee: That is. So I got the chills. I got the chills. It's it's powerful, it's powerful, and it's a i've heard this all before. But actually, for me really resonates with me right now, because
• 17:52
  Melinda Lee: I I think I'm just getting faster. And it took it would take me a lot longer to fail. Forward but now with you, with you just saying this over and over and ingraining it me, it just feels more like, okay. I could do that, you know, it's easier. It's better like you said failing is an opportunity for growth and learning. And and so it's encouraging for me, and to to be reminded of that.
• 18:15
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Keep in mind that.
• 18:16
  Melinda Lee: They feel.
• 18:17
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Yeah, keep in mind that you learn more from failure than you do from.
• 18:21
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, right? Right? Right?
• 18:25
  Melinda Lee: Oh.
• 18:26
  Melinda Lee: and I just I I it's so true. It's so true. And I think about my daughter. I think about how many times she's failed, and all of our failures do lead to a lot of our expansion and our growth.
• 18:36
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: She fails. Say good! That's positive.
• 18:39
  Melinda Lee: Good.
• 18:40
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: That's good. What did you learn from that?
• 18:42
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. Yeah. And with AI, I mean, I think that with AI and technology, we I love how you said no hierarchy. It almost feels like we all have a like. We can all have a playing ground here with the technology that's happening
• 18:56
  Melinda Lee: like there's so much we could do.
• 18:59
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Oh, for sure!
• 18:59
  Melinda Lee: Everyone.
• 19:00
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: For sure, AI is changing everything right now, especially, you know, within, within Hollywood, within the entertainment industry. Everybody everybody is
• 19:08
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: is is an independent contractor now, because they've got technology at home. They've got the they've got AI, you know, it's getting to the point where a single person, an independent filmmaker can actually create films using AI
• 19:31
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: can't hear. You
• 19:39
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: can't hear you, Melinda.
• 20:13
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Nope, you were up.
• 20:28
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: I don't know what happened.
• 20:29
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Can you hear me.
• 20:32
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Can you hear me?
• 20:34
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Well, you can't hear me either.
• 20:36
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Interesting.
• 20:44
  Melinda Lee: Hello!
• 20:45
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: You know, it just said
• 20:48
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: what I just did, was it? It said, this is being recorded, and I clicked. Okay. And you came back.
• 20:55
  Melinda Lee: Oh, okay, okay, okay. Good. Okay. I think we're. I'm so sorry about that.
• 21:00
  Melinda Lee: I think we're let's take it from
• 21:04
  Melinda Lee: it was an AI. It was the AI, and how
• 21:09
  Melinda Lee: I'm gonna have my editor change it. But basically how AI
• 21:14
  Melinda Lee: was like the you know how everybody has their own freelance.
• 21:18
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: You're basically saying, Yeah, you don't need organizational structure. And I mentioned that most people in in Hollywood are now independent contractors, and they've got the technology and independent filmmakers can actually make movies on their desktop.
• 21:36
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 21:37
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: I think that's right. After that it went out.
• 21:39
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 21:41
  Melinda Lee: yeah, let's just start from there. Yeah, can you just say that most people yeah in in Hollywood, just take it from there.
• 21:48
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Yeah, AI is very, very powerful. In fact, you know, Hollywood is being transformed because most practitioners, most visual effects in particular practitioners. You know, can work from home. They can work independently. And AI is allowing independent filmmakers
• 22:08
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: to actually create entire movies, or at least it's going this direction. It's not quite there yet, but it will be entire movies on their laptop
• 22:19
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: at home. That's very exciting to me, because for too long it's been controlled by the big studios and big money, you know. 100 million dollar budgets and that sort of thing. And the independent filmmaker just picks up the scraps. Well, now
• 22:34
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: they're on an even footage now. The independent filmmaker can make really exciting
• 22:43
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: heavily visual effects. Heavy. movies right on their laptop.
• 22:49
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: So exciting.
• 22:52
  Melinda Lee: That's exciting.
• 22:53
  Melinda Lee: That's amazing, I mean, and it goes the same to in all industries, across industries, a lot of roles, a lot of different areas of opportunities for for a lot of people.
• 23:05
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Yeah, a lot of people are afraid of AI, and they really don't. I mean, if they're afraid of. If they're afraid of AI, they will be left behind.
• 23:13
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 23:13
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: They need to embrace AI, learn it, and find out different ways that they can use it to make their lives and the lives of their their employees better.
• 23:23
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, and I'm bringing it into my business. And so it's very exciting what we can do here with AI and coaching and communication.
• 23:31
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Oh, yeah.
• 23:32
  Melinda Lee: Wonderful. Well, thank you, Dr. Sandre. It was really wonderful meeting you and hearing about your expertise, I definitely learned a lot. I'll take it and implement it? And and how do people do? Are you looking for people? If people can contact you if they have any additional questions? Is that. Okay, that we put your
• 23:52
  Melinda Lee: oh, sure information into the chat or into the show notes.
• 23:56
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Oh, absolutely, absolutely feel free to contact.
• 23:59
  Melinda Lee: What are your yeah? What are you? Are you? Are you, Co? Are you consulting nowadays for.
• 24:06
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: I'm old I've got. I've got several startups that I'm consulting. I I host an angel group every 2 weeks at Westcliff University, and I'm in partnership with Westcliff University on this AI business, this this assessment business that was formed after I got my 3 patents in artificial intelligence. Again, when when education
• 24:34
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: really has no way, educators have no way of authenticating whether a student actually did their work or not, or whether it was done with Chat Gpt, and most of them spend most of their time just
• 24:48
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: trying to figure out whether somebody's plagiarizing. They'll use applications like turn it in to try to find out whether to try to catch somebody in the act of plagiarizing. I'm ignoring, plagiarizing. I don't really care about plagiarizing. I care about whether they've learned anything or not.
• 25:08
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: even if plagiarize something, if they've read through what they plagiarized and checked all the references and all of that business. They've learned something.
• 25:17
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: And that's really what matters. And so the technology that I developed that I'm going in partnership with Westcliff University on is going to, I think, be disruptive in a positive way to higher education.
• 25:33
  Melinda Lee: Wonderful, wonderful! I can't wait to hear more about it.
• 25:39
  Melinda Lee: I think that's so important. And again going like you mentioned taking a step forward, going into the unknown. And as you continue to do that to support the the communities, the world, our students.
• 25:53
  Melinda Lee: Thank you so much for your work, Dr. Sandre. It's really great.
• 25:56
  Barry Sandrew, Ph.D.: Thank you, Melinda. I really appreciate taking you taking the time.
• 26:02
  Melinda Lee: Thank you and dear listeners, thank you so much for joining us. I trust that you are going to take away your nugget for what you need to communicate, to make more positive difference in the world, appreciate you until next time. See you.