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As the Citizen Among You · Outside Issues

• 0:13
  Speaker A: From ending birthright citizenship, a constitutional right guaranteed by the 14th Amendment, to stopping refugee resettlement, to reinstating his failed program like Remain in Mexico, Immigrants are being persecuted, targeted and treated like criminals. Our progressive movement is all about a vision rooted in decency, justice, equality and peace for all.
• 0:41
  Speaker B: Welcome to Outside Issues with Audrey and Patrick. Your hair looks good.
• 0:46
  Speaker C: Oh, thank you. I haven't washed in three days.
• 0:50
  Speaker B: Well, maybe that kind of helps with the zhuzhing, you know, like the curl.
• 0:53
  Speaker A: Right.
• 0:54
  Speaker B: It's kind of like that happens with me sometimes. Like I, you know, I don't have time to do some self care thing and I assume that's going to make me look worse, but sometimes it makes me look better.
• 1:03
  Speaker C: It doesn't really help my anxiety to be living in this world of capitalism.
• 1:09
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think it helps a lot of people except the capitalists. That's why it sucks, is because there's so few who benefit from it in a real way. Hey, Marissa, it's so nice to meet you.
• 1:19
  Speaker A: Hi, how are you?
• 1:21
  Speaker B: What are your thoughts on capitalism being shit?
• 1:24
  Speaker A: Oh, man. What are my thoughts about it? Like, where can I start?
• 1:31
  Speaker B: Well, how does that hit you today? Because, just because, like, you know, Audrey's had like a rough week, you know, in terms of mental health, and we were just talking a little bit when we first logged on about, you know, there's like, no, there's not that lot of space for her to get well or to be well or to attempt that, just with certain imperatives weighing on her. And this happens to everybody to some degree, except for the ones whose money makes money or the ones who don't really have to work.
• 2:01
  Speaker A: Right, exactly, exactly. Well, what can I tell you? As someone who does immigrant rights work and especially with everything going on, who's profiting from individuals being deported and being detained, private detention centers, you know, even foreign governments who are receiving now aid and money on behalf of the United States government to detain folks. So it's been, you know, it's been really rough. Especially I was also doing this work back under Trump 1.0, and I had promised myself that I wouldn't let it wear me down like it did the first time around. And he's managed to accomplish that in the first eight months of his second term. And it's one of those things that's like, how do you find those moments of peace and joy? Because something that I always say too is that joy is an act of rebellion in itself. So we have to be conscious and have to make you Know, have to give ourselves those. Those moments. But it's tough because then you also get, you know, like, survivor's guilt in the sense, like, you know, I'm an immigrant, Highly privileged immigrant. I'm a law professor. I can't complain, you know, but thinking about my community and what they're experiencing is really rough, you know? So, yeah, it's been a tough time.
• 3:28
  Speaker B: I want to circle back around to that and just talk about the current landscape with immigration and Trump. But I thought we could start just by talking about yours and Audrey's relationship and, like, how you met each other and, you know, like, that's. I imagine there's a lot of joy there, right?
• 3:47
  Speaker A: There is. So Audrey's my bestie from high school. We met. Was it freshman year? Freshman year, yes.
• 3:57
  Speaker C: I think. I think we started. We met freshman year, but we started hanging out sophomore year.
• 4:01
  Speaker A: Yeah, one of those years.
• 4:03
  Speaker B: Wait, Miracosta.
• 4:05
  Speaker A: In Miracosta.
• 4:06
  Speaker B: I went to Costa.
• 4:07
  Speaker A: Oh, you did?
• 4:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, class of 2004.
• 4:11
  Speaker A: Okay, so a year ahead of us, then, because we were 2004.
• 4:14
  Speaker C: Patrick, are you comfortable with saying the thing about you that. That I told you?
• 4:21
  Speaker B: Sure. I mean, whatever. You know, I'm down with anything. This is. Yeah, we're free and open discourse here.
• 4:30
  Speaker C: So, Marissa, remember when we TP'd Dan Green's house?
• 4:34
  Speaker A: Yes, but I. So I would like just to say that I was too scared and I was.
• 4:39
  Speaker C: Oh, that's right, you were.
• 4:40
  Speaker A: Yes, but I observed. I was a supporter.
• 4:45
  Speaker C: And it took a while for him to catch up to the news.
• 4:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 4:50
  Speaker C: For some reason, Patrick told him.
• 4:54
  Speaker A: How did Patrick know. How did you know Patrick, this happened.
• 4:57
  Speaker B: I don't know. I completely blocked this out. Like, my house got TP'd a couple times in high school, and you know what? Like, I just had such a rough time in my 20s. I was on so many drugs, and I had my whole journey of going off the grid and then getting back on the grid, and so I just love hearing about this lore, this missing lore from the high school days that I think I might have. Like, my memory might have elided, you know, But. But, yeah, I don't remember this story, but it's. It's awesome. I'm delighted to hear it.
• 5:28
  Speaker A: Audrey's. Yeah, one of my. To this day, I would say one of my best friends. I think she knows. We each know our deepest, darkest secret, which we don't have to discuss on this podcast. Yeah. I was actually in the South Bay right when I got back from Mexico this past. This last Week, I can't even remember because I'm all over the place. And I was reminiscing about the good old times in the South Bay, even though I don't spend that much time in the South Bay anymore, mostly because I get annoyed. But I do love home. You know, Hermosa beach will always be. Be home. So. Yeah.
• 6:00
  Speaker B: Did you guys always relate on the level of, like, politics and social justice and stuff, or, like. Cause you guys do seem to be spiritually connected on that.
• 6:08
  Speaker A: I'm trying to think what brought us together in high school. Audrey.
• 6:13
  Speaker C: Oh, this is horrible. I know that. I know that Allie didn't know if he spoke English or not.
• 6:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. Which is also very something of people who attended Miracosta in Manhattan Beach. Right. Knowing the fact that I was one of, like, five brown girls who graduated from that high school.
• 6:30
  Speaker B: And yeah, it's so white. Yeah.
• 6:33
  Speaker A: Incredibly white. And being a white passing Brown person, too. But, yeah, it was actually funny because I was on a different podcast today, and they asked me, like, how did I grapple with the fact. Because I went to USC for undergrad, which is also conservative, predominantly white university, and I was actually talking like, well, my days in high school actually really prepared me for that environment, and I think even prepared me for the environment that I working today in the law. But. But, yeah, but I did have. We did have a good little community of friends. But, yeah, Costa. Well, I've been involved in the immigrant rights movement since high school, and it was actually an experience that I had. Well, you know, growing up, I was always well aware of the fact that I was an immigrant. I came to the United States at the age of two. You know, my parents, particularly my mom, hustled for me to be able to go to the school district. I go attend school in Hermosa in Manhattan beach, which grateful for. Because I really do think it provided me with the resources to be able to access a higher education where I am now. But it came with its, you know, came with its, you know, I guess, struggles, especially being one of the very few Latinas in. In that, you know, in that. Not even campus, I would say, like the entire community. Right. Being tokenized, being discriminated against. I still remember teachers would try to dissuade me or like, my counselor from taking AP classes. And I remember that when I went to my college, the college advisor that we had and I had the document show, like, my admissions letter that I got into usc or I had told her I got into usc, and she didn't believe and she asked me to bring in my admissions letter.
• 8:20
  Speaker B: Why were they trying to dissuade you from taking AP classes?
• 8:23
  Speaker A: I don't think they thought I was capable of doing so. There was no basis besides the fact that I really think so. Being Latina, I started becoming involved in the immigrant rights movement in high school because it was our junior year. When I decided to walk out, I protested. As Audrey knows, I was super nerdy. Actually quite introverted in high school, now that I think about it, being in the position that I am now. But I guess we change and evolve as time goes on. And two of my teachers really took an interest as to why I walked out. Ms. Bozeman and Mr. Knudsen, if either of you guys remember them, shout out to both of them if they ever hear this.
• 9:10
  Speaker C: What did Mr. Knudsen teach, by the way?
• 9:12
  Speaker A: He taught history. AP U.S. history. I was in his AP U.S. history class, and I always say that he gave me my first lawyering experience. Cause our final paper, he changed it for me. And he said, I want you to argue both sides and come to a conclusion as to, like it was specifically why undocumented immigrants should have licenses. Then Ms. Bozeman thought it was great and asked me to do a presentation in class that ran over two class days. I had classmates of mine say that they weren't going to come back to class if I continued to speak about the rights of undocumented immigrants. Which basically was a slap in the face because it was very much telling of how my classmates and their families. Right. Felt about my family, about me, and about my community. So I said, f that. And then I continued to do immigrant Nights work. So that is one of the many reasons why I do this work today. Yeah, mostly my personal story, but that was one of the, like, you know, defying moments in when I was, what, 16, 15 years old, and was like, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life.
• 10:24
  Speaker B: The absence of counter messaging against Trump, this kind of affirmative case for immigrants. If immigrants are undocumented, let's document them, let's absorb them into the body. And this goes back, as you said, so much further than just the last eight to 10 years. And I don't know, I think I'm ready. What I want to see as far as, like, a horizon to look towards is like a negative image of the Trump vision, You know, that ultra xenophobic white national nationalist, you know, strong borders, quote, unquote. Like, I don't. In the. I mean, I don't. I'm not going to pin my name to anything that's not opposite of where we're at right now. And how does that, like, I mean, what are your thoughts on it? I mean, I just feel like ever since the wall. Well, you know, that was the narrative of 2016. Like, you know, in, in this last election, there was a town hall that Kamala Harris did where she, where she said that she wanted to, that she wanted to continue the border wall or, you know, she wanted to, she wanted to do the border wall but like better, you know, or more humane. Yeah, and that's just not going to cut it. I mean, I don't know, like that, that was, I think an attempt to kind of, just to slow Trump's role is like, let's just kind of co opt some of his, you know, kind of racist white nationalism, but like steer it in a direction that's not as hardcore Stephen Miller as we're getting right now.
• 12:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think it's a. Yeah, it's, I think there's a lot of things at play, you know, and he's, he's done a good, I mean, the Republican Party has done a really good job when it's come to their messaging, Right. And really using narrative as a way to unify their party and their supporters and using, trying to counter the issues of white, like, because people are accusing them of white nationalism. Because clearly. Right, but talking about national security and really framing it in terms of like protecting America and protecting Americans. Right, but what they mean is white people. And the border wall has always been an issue, not just, or that they've, they've framed it as like, you know, not immigration, but national security. You know, we are a country that is sovereign and should be able to take, Right. Take care of its borders. But what's really frustrating about that narrative is that I always ask people how many people have actually gone to visit the border. You know how I think about the people who live in middle nowhere of America and like, have actually probably not even traveled outside of their state or towards the border or to a different country. And to see the fact that we already have a wall to begin with. Right. Our border is highly militarized. Right. California actually has the part of the border that's the most militarized. There's parts of the border that have three or two tiered walls already. And not just that, but if we're really talking one about issues of immigration, the fact is that the border, not even immigration and national security, the border hasn't actually served its function right. Because there's continues to be the crossing of people, but also of drugs and etc. Right. They'll find their way regardless of however high of a wall the United States wants to build. Right, right.
• 13:53
  Speaker B: And they mostly come through port of call. The drugs do.
• 13:56
  Speaker A: Right.
• 13:56
  Speaker B: Isn't that.
• 13:57
  Speaker A: Yeah. And most people, even people who become undocumented in the United States, enter the United States lawfully initially. Right. And that just because of their circumstances, you know, visas expire, loss of access to any type of form of relief, et cetera, you know, fall into a situation where they become undocumented. And then just to go back to the narrative, I think something that's been really difficult, especially, I think what I've been seeing is a lot of apathy, especially on behalf of progressives or people who are part of the Democratic Party. And there hasn't been anyone who's been able to really rally up folks. Right. And there is this lack of narrative. And I think there's also just a lot of, you know, there's been a lot of fractions that have broken off. Right. And I can even say this about the immigrant rights movement as to, like, what's the narrative that we should adopt? How do we counter Trump? Who do we prioritize? Who do we serve? And that type of breaking between the party and even movements, I think, is what's also giving the Trump administration a lot of force, you know, So I think it's like, how do we really create a unified force and encounter that narrative? And, you know, it's really easy to scare people by using the narrative of, like, they're, you know, they're. They're criminals, they're terrorists, etc. When I can tell you that the majority of people that I have been serving, especially in light of the raids, have been people who don't have any criminal histories. There have been people that have just been here for many years without status because they can't access any type of form of relief. Right. And who are hardworking, who have families, been here 20 years, 10 years, and now have to return to a country that they don't even know anymore. Right. And I think it's part of that, is that we've lost the human aspect of it and the fact that it's so easy for. It's sad that for us as human beings, that we can just dispose of people in a way. Right. And not see value or life. And I wish people were able to hear all the stories that I hear on a daily basis. Right. And have an understanding as to what the immigrant community goes through. Right. And I think some Americans are also facing that right now in the sense of like, even myself as someone who does this work and knows that at one point I can be a target of the Trump administration. Right. And that's something that happens to many of my clients who seek asylum. So how do we change the narrative and how do we make it humane? That's what I would say.
• 16:31
  Speaker C: This morning I read the news that Trump has decided to exclude undocumented folks from the census. So I mean, of course that's like a big situation going on in present day. But even if you think back to like the 1700s or the 1800s, like for example, my ancestors came here from Italy and they were undocumented. They came through Ellis Island, I believe, and my great grandfather was fought in World War I, was drafted. I don't specifically remember the laws when it comes to that back then, but I don't know, I just, I wanted to know your thoughts on that news.
• 17:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, part of it with the census is, you know, that's what they use for redistricting. You know, that is what they use for also to calculate electoral votes and then also use that for providing funding to states and neighborhoods, et cetera. Right. Like where do you, where do we provide where there's a higher amount of population, et cetera. Right. And so by excluding undocumented immigrants, you know, it impacts, and that's another thing. So I was even having a contact conversation with colleagues who work for the city of la. It's like they think that by these actions they're only impacting immigrant communities. Right. But they're actually impacting Americans. They're impacting, you know, bigger cities. And it's having these, these policies have a major ripple effect. Right. So by excluding people from the census, that means also lack of, you know, representation and services for that for then Americans. Right. And you know, but it also, I will say it had been a struggle already to get people who didn't have status to report themselves on the census because they were always scared. Right. And, and so this is obviously going to make people more scared and unwilling to participate in the census as well are people who come from mixed status families. So, yeah, so the consequences are greater.
• 18:47
  Speaker B: The insidification of American life, you know, the kind of material conditions undergirding us falling away. Where this anti immigrant sentiment comes from is that the system needs a boogeyman, you know what I mean, to kind of move the attention away from the actual culprits to some out group and you know, like, I think broadly, until the culprits can be named and until the energy can be shifted away from these phantoms, you know, causes of why there's a very real decline, you know what I mean? And there's an ascent in cost of living and then, you know, and a decline in people's safety and well being and, you know, ability to kind of provide a better life for their kids. And. Yeah, and I think that's the problem is that like, until that can be addressed, demagogues like Trump will be able to harness that anger, you know, in the service of fascist ends.
• 19:58
  Speaker A: Oh, for sure. It's, you know, it becomes this whole like us versus them, Right. And you know, first he's been coming after, you know, immigrant groups, right. But now, and that's the thing is that we always discuss like first he's going to go after people who are immigrants, right. Outsiders, but then he's going to use that justification to eventually go after US Citizens in which we've seen with like his executive order regarding homelessness, right. That like the arbitrary detention of people who are now, you know, who are living in a homeless situation that includes US Citizens. But even during the raids, we saw detention of US Citizens, we see deportation of US Citizens. It's the slow creeping up effect. And it's that whole idea. It's like people don't actually care until it impacts them directly. And it's already having an impact. But like you said, cost of living, access to local government resources, et cetera. Right.
• 20:55
  Speaker B: Health care.
• 20:56
  Speaker A: Health care. And I do think that part of his strategy, like for example, I think part of his strategy, even though the United States government highly depends on the California economy, right. Like the United States would exist without the state's economy. But I do really think that part of his tactic is to try to weaken the state, to force the state to become dependent on the federal government. Right. And then hence increase his power.
• 21:21
  Speaker B: I was going to ask Audrey, like, how does some of these immigrant right issues show up in your city, in your state?
• 21:27
  Speaker C: I do work with a population that I'm not quite used to. Currently I work with people in high ses, very high SES situations specifically, like since I'm in Seattle, Amazon workers, Microsoft workers, meta workers, Apple workers, basically like a lot of it stuff. The majority of my clients are white or come from, I want to say, like Chinese descent. And they are just completely blind to this issue. And a lot of folks who are white or white presenting they will accident. Well, not accidentally. They don't know that I'm an anti fascist therapist in America in 2025. And they will say things like very discriminatory. They'll say, oh, the immigrants took my.
• 22:32
  Speaker A: Job.
• 22:35
  Speaker C: When really it's mass layoffs at Meta or something like that. They'll be really, they'll even include mental health diagnoses. And you know, from my perspective as like, both of you know that I do suffer from bipolar disorder. And a lot of folks who I see or I have seen do tie in like somebody's status as like a documented or undocumented person to diagnoses like that. And we're talking, I think last episode we were talking about the homelessness executive order that Trump signed. And I think I emphasized a lot that since it's based on mental health and risk of a lot of folks, I think that, you know, they're going to use the criteria of homicidal ideation against a lot of people, a lot of homeless folks, and therefore institutionalize them right away. And yeah, so in my work currently, I don't really see a lot of this, but I do hear a lot about it. And sometimes my folks that I have worked with in the past have tied diagnoses to sometimes people's legal status or SES status. Basically it's like, oh, they're a crazy immigrant or they're a crazy so and so. But they have like tied a lot of people to even stuff like abortion, the status on abortion, like. And surprisingly, a lot of white male Gen Z clients have spoken up about how they are pro life and how a lot of people who are pro choice are crazy and have more serious diagnoses than they do.
• 24:52
  Speaker B: Kind of Andrew Tate enjoyers, we call them.
• 24:56
  Speaker C: Oh God, yeah. I've heard quite a few Andrew Tate quotes during sessions and it's very hard for me not to call out these people's privilege. And of course, like I have, everything has to stay confidential. And you know, because of HIPAA and yeah, the back to the Gen Z clients. I've had so many, like 20 in their early 20s white male gen Z clients talk about how their parents raised them to not accept the fact that there are marginalized people in our society, trans folks and undocumented folks. It's sad. And as a mental health professional, I have to debrief and I have to think about the things that I hear, especially since I'm anti fascist and there are folks who I've seen who are clearly supporting fascism. So I have to debrief. I have to think of my own diagnoses and think that, well, you know, there's not only me, but people who are way less fortunate than I am because I'm privileged. People who have the same diagnoses as I do and are in marginalized groups have to sort of wrap my head around the fact that people still think that marginalized folks who are mentally ill have some. They don't have a place in society.
• 26:43
  Speaker B: Living in la, just something I've been noticing this week is. And also, yeah, like my family are lib white property owning, you know, Redondo beach residents and you know, oftentimes. Well, meaning what we've noticed in the last couple months around the time we started the podcast with, you know, these ICE goon squads going and abducting people from Home Depot and stuff like that. There's people that work on the houses here and they do the handyman stuff, construction, gardening. And we've developed some relationships, working relationships with immigrants here. And so the latest thing is that there's been kind of like a.
• 27:44
  Speaker A: Make.
• 27:44
  Speaker B: Make work projects to kind of like get, you know, obviously to kind of like get some income flowing in their direction and then also getting cars off the street because there's been some like, kind of unmarked, like, you know, law enforcement vehicles. Could be ice. You know, ICE did raid the South Bay Galleria here. And yeah, like this was like a month or so ago. This is right around the time of the product of the protests. Yeah, but I just think that like that all this stuff's a no brainer, you know, I mean, I just feel like I'm hoping that this will be the starting point of like some real advocacy beyond just, you know, like the help is, is getting some shit from the cops, you know, like, I.
• 28:35
  Speaker A: I.
• 28:35
  Speaker B: Don'T know, like, you know, our time is limited, Marissa, and you could probably talk about this all day, but when all this popped off with the, you know, the Marines being sent or deployed to la, with ICE showing up in the communities here in la, what has your intersection been with that? And can you tell us some stories? Just about like, yeah, just some individuals you've worked with or kind of like what the state of play has been surrounding all this madness.
• 29:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, I. Oh man, there's a lot that I can discuss about that. And you know, one thing I will say, you know, it was sad because I was actually so I'm currently, I spend half of my time, like basically half of my time here in LA and half of my time in Mexico, because right now the work that I'm doing is also supporting Deportees through our Binational Migrant Advocacy Project, which relates to the work that I'm doing in la, because a lot of the people that I have been in contact with here that have been picked up by the raids have then been subjected to deportation and we're still able to provide them assistance even though they're no longer here, you know. And so I will, while I was down there, actually flew back to la. I took an emergency flight back when all the raids were starting to help, were starting to happen to provide support. And it was absolutely heartbreaking because I didn't recognize my city, you know, the city that, you know, is not the city of my birth, but the city that raised me. And to see the fact that we had military presence, you know, the fact that we had military, US military presence on US soil, you know, this is something that other countries live, but that for us as Americans, it's completely mind boggling that this would happen here, right? The use of military force not only against immigrant communities, but LA residents, US citizens. And despite the sadness, I will say that what has been incredibly, you know, empowering and that's made me very happy, is to see how the city has fought back. Like Angeles, the Angelinos are gangster, I will say, right? So the fact that, you know, to see LA residents put themselves in between ICE and the immigrant community had successfully, successfully kicking out ICE out of situations during multiple raids, right? Intervening, willing to put their bodies, willing to be detained, I think speaks to the solidarity that Los Angeles has with the immigrant community. And to even see people that, you know, that I wouldn't see regularly out during the marches, right? Like white women coming out, you know, I appreciate the support, you know, right.
• 31:17
  Speaker B: There's quite a few signs, anti ICE signs at the no Kings rally, you.
• 31:24
  Speaker A: Know, and even the South Bay had a march. And I was like, this is happening in the South Bay, you know, like, I was incredibly proud, right, to see how Angelenos have very much come together to support, you know, and do stuff like how can I provide you with some sort of income, Right. Or supporting street vendors dropping off groceries at people's home because they're scared. Right? So that has been incredibly empowering and also to see how the immigrant community, through the. Through community empowerment. Because right now, to. One of our things that we've been discussing a lot is that there's only so many lawyers that can help, right? So how can we really empower people to assert their own rights and defend themselves? Because we can't do it for everybody. And how Much those type of campaigns have worked, right, to actually stop the detention of folks. So we've, we've made the, you know, we made the federal government work, you know, and we're still making them work, but they're still coming full throttle. And my concern too is this like, you know, how long can our resources last or this will last in light of the force that is the federal government? And I can tell you about multiple stories of people that I've assisted during this time. So the one that was the most heartbreaking is that I represented, I got a call of a woman who was detained during a raid at a Walmart. She was placed in ICE detention and while she was in detention, her 18 year old son died in a tragic car accident. And I was, I basically, because there is a way and I didn't think it would be possible under the Trump administration that you can ask for release because of certain circumstances. Right. So I, this was over 4th of July weekend by the way too. So. So like there was no way that I thought that I was going to get a response from anybody. And so luckily the ICE officer, I was actually shocked because this woman's deportation officer I think really took, was being sympathetic and over 4th of July weekend was working with me to get this woman cleared so she could attend her son's funeral. And I negotiated with ICE and we even said like she will voluntary depart from the United States to just give her a chance to get out 10 her son's funeral, pack her things, grab her other children and leave. Right. And the immigration judge agreed, ICE agreed. And then I called the family, super excited because I was like, wow, the fact that this happened especially under the Trump administration, telling them like, hey, she'll be released tonight from detention. Got a call the following morning, my client was never released. And then called back the ICE officer and then the ICE officer told me that they were going to release her. And when I asked to where, they told me that they were going to release her to Mexico. So a superior officer heard about, I guess found out what happened and basically blocked our request because it's very to the discretion of ice. Federal government has a lot of discretion when it comes to immigration enforcement and deported my client and didn't afford her the right to attend her son's funeral. My client did not have a criminal record. She was simply a visa overstay and she had to watch her son's funeral over FaceTime. So that was the only way that she was able to attempt, you know, and another, another example I can give you is that I had another case of a family where the dad was undocumented from Guatemala. Had been, he was in his early 40s, had been in the United States for over 20 years, married to a DACA recipient. So a DACA recipient doesn't have the authority to travel, doesn't have a green card. It's something called deferred action. Right. And has three US Citizen children. But none of the kids were old enough to petition for their father to get a green card. And dad was then subjected to deportation back to Guatemala. And now we see a family that's been separated completely because mom, who is also a Mexican national, so she can't, you know, if she wanted to travel, she would have to go to Mexico. Right. Husbands in Guatemala, minor US Citizen children. So how can you have that reunification happen? How can those children go see their father? Right. They're underage, they can travel by themselves. Yes. But it's again, the separation of families. And those are stories that are incredibly common. And that's why I think is that we lose sight of humanity. And also people don't understand how bad detention is. Right. Immigration. So that's another thing is immigration is not criminal law. It's a civil offense. Right? Yeah.
• 36:12
  Speaker B: It's like getting a. It's like getting a parking ticket.
• 36:14
  Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Right. But yet we criminalize them and don't afford them the same rights. Right. So they're detained. You don't have a right to an attorney at the cost of the government. You have to find your own attorney. And even though, you know, they might find their own attorney, we're seeing that the Trump administration is denying them the right to see their attorney while being detained. And the detention, the conditions are horrific. You know, they're similar to that of people who are being criminally detained. That's another thing too, is that I always tell people like, have you visited a detention center? Have you ever been to a jail? Because it really gives you an understanding as to what people experience in detention. You know, as a lawyer who's gone multiple times. And granted, I only go in and go to the. I've seen the pods, but yeah, the visiting room. Right. And it has a mental toll on me. Like, I can't imagine those who are subjected to detention. Right. And having to be there 24 7.
• 37:12
  Speaker C: And you're going to probably. I think some of the clips that I've seen are, that have to do with that are from a mental health perspective, being denied their medication. And some of these folks are diagnosed with serious mental illnesses. Like schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, and also bipolar disorder.
• 37:31
  Speaker A: And I've had cases. So. And this was a long time ago, not under the Trump administration, but, for example, where we came across a client that was schizophrenic, and the guards didn't know what to do with him, so they would just sedate him. You know, so they dated him, and he was basically being detained indefinitely because he was incompetent to move forward with his trial. Right. You don't have a right to counsel. How is he going to be able to find his own immigration attorney? Right. And, yeah, they would just simply sedate him as a way to control him. And, yeah, they had another case, too, of a transgender woman who was detained and was denied her medication as well, and she was male presenting, but still had female anatomy. And, you know, it's interesting when you hear this rhetoric of the Trump administration not acknowledging folks that are transgender. They placed her in. They placed him in a male facility, and he was kept advocating, like, please put me in a female facility because I'm at risk. Right. I'm highly vulnerable, and I still have female anatomy. But it took forever for us to advocate, like, more than a month to get him out of there and get placed into a woman's facility. It felt safer.
• 38:49
  Speaker B: In a broad sense, I think the correct response to this should be to lead with moral conviction, and that's from the activist level up to the legislative level, because the party in power or the individuals in power, they are leading with their own moral conviction. You know what I mean? It's just a despicable morality. And I feel like even those. If we're talking about the politics of it, even those that don't have strong ideological commitments or moral commitments, you know, they see people who act on what they care about and are consistent with what they care about, and they. And I think that that has. That there's a persuasive aspect to that. I mean, I feel like, what do you guys think? I don't know, in the broad sense.
• 39:40
  Speaker A: Well, don't get me started on white nationalism and Christianity. That's the only thing, you know, because. Yeah, no, that's the thing is that you would think people either, like, how is. How can you see this as being humane? You know, and this has been one of my biggest gripes, too, is, you know, how he's used religion, you know, predominantly Christianity and rallying up the, you know, conservative, Christian, white base to be okay with these policies and use Christianity to. To justify it, too. Right. So, like, the lack of. Of morals there is what I think about too, like, where. Where. If, you know, regardless of everyone's views, but, like, where is God in this? You know, if this is really what drives you to. To have these positions, you know, And I say that too, as someone that grew up in a highly Christian, highly Christian household, you know, and the hypocrisy of it completely, you know, and even, like, with that base, I'm like, how can I. How. If you are all about being loving and accepting and all, like, how can you support this man who is doing all of this to people?
• 40:59
  Speaker B: You know, Are you still a practicing Christian?
• 41:02
  Speaker A: I am not. So, you know, I will say, like, I have, and this is something Audrey and I have too, is that, you know, we've connected over spirituality and, you know, and I will say this. I work for a Jesuit institution. I work at Loyola Law School. I love the Jesuits, man. The Catholic, they were. They're the liberals of the Catholic. They're progressive. They throw it down. Like, I was marching with some of the priests that I work with, and then I get scared for them. So I'm like, you can't get detained. I was like, I'll get detained instead. So. But that's where I see, you know, like, really where I see that connection of moral spirituality and activism, I think is. Is beautiful. So I joke with my mom all the time because my mom was always, like, wanting me to go back to church. I was like, I know when we came to this country, we converted from Catholicism, but, like, I'm gonna stick to the Jesuits, man. They're. They're pretty gangster, right? They're not perfect, you know, I mean, stances on abortion and stuff, but we're not gonna get there. But, yeah, with the Catholic Church, but, you know, the. How progressive they were. I mean, the last Pope, come on. You know, and accepting of others, I think that's really, like an example of putting your faith into play and practice with your morals. But, yeah, I have my own battles with Christianity.
• 42:24
  Speaker C: So despite the fact that I'm wearing a cross right now, I actually just thought this looked cool. So I just wanted to clarify the fact that I'm wearing a cross right now. Yeah, I actually saw. I think, Patrick, you might have repost this on social media or somebody else. In downtown Seattle, there was a massive art display of an ICE agent detaining Jesus.
• 42:52
  Speaker B: No, I wish I posted that.
• 42:54
  Speaker A: Yeah, it was here in la. It was here in la.
• 42:57
  Speaker C: I was really proud of my new area, my new home to, of course, Seattle's very progressive, too. So I was really excited that we have jumped on board. Well, obviously, we've jumped on board for a while.
• 43:12
  Speaker A: Yeah. I've seen those shirts that say, like, jesus is an unhoused Palestinian refugee. Like, it's really awesome. And I was like, that's right. That is Jesus. And Jesus would not approve of what all y' all are doing.
• 43:26
  Speaker B: What should we ask of our elected representatives vis a vis immigration coming up, you know, in the midterms and beyond, like, what comes to mind, like, with that question.
• 43:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'll use that and then, like, piggyback a little bit on what Audrey was saying about, like, people who feel hopeless because I get told, like, what can we do? You know? And yes, volunteering helps, but volunteering can also sometimes cause more work for us since we have to train y'.
• 43:53
  Speaker C: All.
• 43:53
  Speaker A: Right? So what I always say is one, yes, call your elected officials. I know it sounds silly, and people are like, does it really make a difference? Yes, because it keeps the issue at the forefront. Right. Because the whole point of your elected officials is that they're supposed to act at the will of their constituents. So if this is an issue that's important to you, especially in response to the raids, the fact that Trump just violated the temporary restraining order by having this raid at Home Depot, which is five minutes from my office yesterday. Right. Keep it up. Because it truly, truly makes a difference. Right. The other thing is your money is powerful, right. Why is it that this Republican Party is so powerful is because they have a lot of access to corporations and money. So put your money towards, you know, support not just only, like, businesses, small businesses, try to avoid, like ordering from Amazon, for example, but also donate to us. Right. Like us as, you know, service providers, we've been hit harshly by. Not just on the demand by, but the fact that the federal government has reduced a lot of support for nonprofits. Right. And are attacking nonprofits and activists and leaders. Right. And three is, you know, the importance of educating your own community. Right. And considering that, you know, we're talking about being from the South Bay and the south, is what I something that I tell white people quite often is you have access to people in spaces that I, you know, despite being white, passing, and sometimes white people won't accept me. Right. But to spaces that I can't always enter, to spaces where my clients cannot enter. And you can engage with dialogue, with, account with. With family members from people on the other side in a way that I'm not able to. So it's your Duty to educate them and really let them know, like, what is going on and how is this impacting the immigrant community. But not just the immigrant community, but us, you know, our society. So those are the things that I always say. So call your elected officials, put your money where your mouth is. You know, what you support and, you know, educate your community.
• 46:01
  Speaker B: What do you. What do you look for? I mean, what do you look towards to kind of give you. To pour enough hope into your tank to kind of keep you going to the next day?
• 46:08
  Speaker A: Oh, man, that's such a good question. You know, what I always say is, my students, in my position, I have the best of both worlds, that I get to represent people and actually work with law students and train future generations of lawyers. And to see my students, they come in with so much grit and energy, where I'm like, man, I have been at this for way too long, and I am tired, right? And seeing them succeed and seeing them see how they can use the law to truly make an impact in society, in someone's life, and knowing that there's that future generation that is coming through and will carry on the torch and hopefully make. Make a difference, you know, and so those are one of the. That's one of the main things that motivate me. And yes, of course, stuff like family, I have a little sister and stuff like that. But when it comes to work is. And obviously my community, seeing those moments of success or seeing my clients then thrive, you know, I have some clients doing some awesome work on behalf of the immigrant community, but also, like, just thriving. I have one client who's now in aerospace, who came in as an. As an accompanied child, and now he's an aerospace engineer. So, like, super proud of them for. Despite the obstacles that they've, you know, confronted being able to move forward and succeed in life. And that makes me. That keeps me going. Yeah.
• 47:47
  Speaker B: Audrey, what's. What's helped you get through this week so far?
• 47:53
  Speaker C: Rest and honor. Rest and honesty. I was telling Patrick before you hopped on that I've had to cancel a lot of appointments this week just because I'm experiencing a lot of symptoms from all of my diagnoses. And so keeping honest with my clients has been very powerful. I'm not the therapist who takes control of the power dynamic. I practice narrative therapy mainly, which is like, I want to hear your story and I want to meet you where you're at. So, you know, if my clients are doing that, then why don't I, you know, so I share some of my story which is the fact that I'm diagnosed with a lot of mental illness. Illnesses. I almost said illnesses. Illnesses. Right.
• 48:48
  Speaker B: Illnesses. Illnesses. Sounds right. So I think we're going to stick with.
• 48:51
  Speaker A: Got you.
• 48:52
  Speaker C: I understand mental illnesses, including the very, very serious diagnosis of bipolar one with psychotic features. And I'm currently what you would say in a depressive episode in conjunction with some symptoms of PTSD and panic disorder. And so keeping honest with both my coworkers and my clients is really powerful to me, you know, and, yeah, that's. That's been kind of my week. So if you ever hear me sort of. I feel like I have a little bit of a raspy voice right now. If you ever hear me a little bit of a raspy voice or a tired tone, it's 100% because of my mental illness, specifically bipolar, because depression. Bipolar. Depression is. It's a kicker. It's not fun. So, yeah, that's been me getting through this week and also sort of keeping up with the news, as I do, and I've mentioned this before a couple of times, is that I see a lot of clients who have mental health issues surrounding the news, like generalized anxiety disorder, especially, and a feeling of hopelessness, not being able to do anything specific. Especially, like, if they're privileged, they will say, like, I can't. And, you know, if they're privileged, they're usually working at Microsoft or they're working at one of these big tech companies over here, and they just are at a loss for action and a loss for words. And they just tell me about how they feel hopeless and can't participate, especially because the news is too triggering to them or it's too much for them. And to that, I try to encourage them to be a part of a community and really voice their concerns and take part in that group to feel better not only for themselves but for others, because they clearly have a knack for social justice. If they're telling me this, as compared to some other folks who have said the opposite. So I'm personally not affected by hearing about the news and hearing about, I guess what you would say, like, tragedies. It gives me some energy despite the fact that I am diagnosed with these illnesses that are serious.
• 51:39
  Speaker B: It is a privilege to get to do this. You know, this is our sixth episode, and we're still figuring out how to attract our listenership. You know, we've got some, like, people that know us, and I'm trying to get some word of mouth going, but I believe that, you know, that a listenership will come and in the meantime like Audrey is just somebody that like I feel like I've gotten to know within the last year and like I just a very like minded person and like I just feel like I feel seen and I feel understood and I feel like I've got somebody to collaborate on, you know, these things that I'm passionate about with and you know I wouldn't have met Marissa without her and, and yeah like this is like it's a bit of work, you know to on the post or whatever or you know, to schedule but like it's really like it's becoming something like I really like a cornerstone in my week and it's something that like I feel like can grow over time and who knows where it'll take us. That's what I love about podcasts is that it's like such like a non existent overhead for the most part and you know, but it's. You create kind of like a high quality piece of you know, radio or left wing agit prop which the world needs more of these days.
• 52:58
  Speaker A: I love it. Love it. No, it's awesome. And I was honored to be invited as a, as a guest and I think it's important to have these platforms and discussions and like you said, you know, I always say especially like I've learned through my work like when I started this clinic and now I'm starting the binational clinic, like if you build it they will come. It comes from that movie, what's that movie that Baseball dreams. There you go. Comes from of dreams. And it's true. If you build it, they will come.