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Transcript

Understanding SIB & Mansa-X · The Mwango Capital Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Mwango Space.
0:00
SPEAKER_00: Really interesting discussion today on understanding SAB, Mansa X, and just markets in general.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm Eric Mokai, the founder of Mwango Capital.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: Naashan,
0:08
SPEAKER_00: maybe you could introduce yourself to those who don't know you,
0:10
SPEAKER_00: and then you can tell us a bit about your work course.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Good evening, everyone.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: Mwango, thank you very much for having me.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: My name is Naashan Mongai.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm the Executive Director for Global Markets at Standard Investment Bank.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: And I'm very happy to be here this evening, looking forward to an engaging conversation.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: So,
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Nanshal,
0:26
SPEAKER_00: if you can tell us a bit about what you do day to day,
0:29
SPEAKER_00: what are some of the activities you engage in,
0:31
SPEAKER_00: and also tell us a bit about the background to SAB,
0:33
SPEAKER_00: a bit of history around the company itself and how you got there yourself.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: This is the second time I've been here before, so thank you so much again for this opportunity.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: Within SI, I run the Global Markets Division.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: This is a buy side of the business, and I'll explain what that means shortly.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: The buy side of the business where I run discretionary funds,
0:52
SPEAKER_01: the one that's most well known is the Mansa X Fund,
0:55
SPEAKER_01: and I think that's the one we'll be discussing more tonight.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: I joined SIB from commercial banking, actually.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Before I joined SIB,
1:02
SPEAKER_01: I worked for various banks,
1:04
SPEAKER_01: but mostly in trading capacities in the treasury departments of INM Bank,
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Equity Bank,
1:10
SPEAKER_01: KCB,
1:11
SPEAKER_01: and Bank of Africa before I left,
1:13
SPEAKER_01: where I was a head of treasury.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: So in my capacity in those commercial banks,
1:17
SPEAKER_01: it was really just fund management,
1:19
SPEAKER_01: but in a very different angle from how you might know it.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: It's really what happens within banks is that
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Traders actually trade their deposits, clients' accounts.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Traders are actually the ones that actually trade those funds.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: And that used to be my role for about six years before I joined SIB.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: So I joined SIB to give opportunities to investors to access markets that were not
1:40
SPEAKER_01: before exposed to investors in the Kenyan space.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: And what's SIB's core business model?
1:45
SPEAKER_01: What are some of the services you offer?
1:46
SPEAKER_01: So SIB is an investment bank.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: So just to explain, an investment bank is different from a commercial bank.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: in the sense that an investment bank that does not take clients' deposits like a
1:56
SPEAKER_01: bank does,
1:57
SPEAKER_01: because a bank takes in clients' deposits in order to un-lend them as loans.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: And the margin of how much they pay their depositors versus how much they lend is
2:06
SPEAKER_01: actually how they make a return,
2:08
SPEAKER_01: or that's how they make a profit.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Investment banks operate in the capital market space,
2:12
SPEAKER_01: meaning that we enable our investors to participate in stock markets,
2:17
SPEAKER_01: fixed income markets.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: So fixed income refers to the buying and selling of bonds, treasury bonds, bills, and so on.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: And also investment banks primarily,
2:25
SPEAKER_01: although this was not happening for a very long time in Kenya,
2:28
SPEAKER_01: enable investors to have access to financial advice,
2:32
SPEAKER_01: advising them in terms of how to manage their wealth,
2:35
SPEAKER_01: what you call wealth management and advisory.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: So investment banks help retail investors to participate in capital markets,
2:41
SPEAKER_01: but they also help businesses in capital raising.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: So if you're a company and you're looking to raise money by,
2:46
SPEAKER_01: say,
2:46
SPEAKER_01: listing on a stock market,
2:48
SPEAKER_01: investment banks such as Standard Investment Bank will enable you to do that.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: And what differentiates you from the other investment banks in the market in terms
2:55
SPEAKER_00: of value proposition to clients?
2:57
SPEAKER_01: So Standard Investment Bank was founded in 1995 and it's a fully indigenous investment bank.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: So we've been around for a while, over 30 years now, and we started as a stockbroker.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: So for a very long time in Kenya,
3:11
SPEAKER_01: we did not have a very big differentiator between an investment bank and a stockbroker.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'll explain what this means.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: In the stock brokerage business, it means Mokaya comes to buy equity bank stock.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: So when you buy equity bank stock, then you come and buy it through, say, SAB.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: And then we will help you to buy this stock.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: We will place the order for you.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: And when you buy, we'll earn a commission on that trade.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: So typically around 2%.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: So for a very long time, that's what investment banks in Kenya did.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: And the trouble with that is we did not really do,
3:42
SPEAKER_01: as an industry that is,
3:43
SPEAKER_01: we did not really help investors with managing their wealth.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Because if you buy an equity bank stock and it doesn't perform well, that's up to you.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: We don't really do the job of advising you on whether it's the right stock to buy
3:57
SPEAKER_01: or whether it fits your portfolio and so on.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: So around 2016, the board of SIB sat and decided we need to do business differently.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Can we start also managing funds and discretionary fund management of investor
4:10
SPEAKER_01: funds that are given to us so that we can actually do the job of helping investors
4:15
SPEAKER_01: make the right calls in markets?
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Because we have an advantage based on our experience and also because we have what
4:20
SPEAKER_01: you call an order flow exposure.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: So we're able to know maybe the stocks that are best suited for you.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: But we took it one notch higher to then expose investors to actual investment
4:31
SPEAKER_01: classes that do not necessarily only exist in the Kenyan space.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: So what the value proposition for SIB therefore would be that when you enter SIB,
4:39
SPEAKER_01: you can do the very things any other investment bank can give you because any other
4:44
SPEAKER_01: investment bank can do the same thing.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: They can offer you stock brokerage services.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: They can offer you access to corporate finance businesses,
4:50
SPEAKER_01: what you call balance sheet optimization,
4:53
SPEAKER_01: IPO listing,
4:54
SPEAKER_01: mergers and acquisitions.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: They can give you all that.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: But we decided to take it a notch higher by now allowing retail investors to
5:01
SPEAKER_01: actually come and not have to do anything other than just invest with us.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: And we do the rest of the work that is investing in various asset classes on their behalf.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: And that's our biggest value proposition.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: The fact that we became an all-rounded financial advisor, so to speak.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: So apart from Mansa X,
5:17
SPEAKER_00: which we're going to dig into in a couple of minutes,
5:20
SPEAKER_00: what are some of the other products that you have?
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can just mention a few that people may not be aware of.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: So let me just,
5:27
SPEAKER_01: first of all,
5:27
SPEAKER_01: explain that an investment bank,
5:29
SPEAKER_01: even from a regulatory perspective,
5:31
SPEAKER_01: has to have a sell side and a buy side of the business.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: The sell side of the business is where we receive orders to buy and sell financial
5:38
SPEAKER_01: instruments on behalf of investors,
5:40
SPEAKER_01: essentially what I refer to earlier as a stock brokerage side of it.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: So investors can come and open accounts to buy and sell shares on the NSE.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: So that's the first thing they can do.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: The second thing is they can come to us to buy and sell fixed income assets.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: So you can buy Kenyan treasury bonds with us,
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Kenyan treasury bills,
5:59
SPEAKER_01: corporate bonds that are available for listing,
6:01
SPEAKER_01: or even the ones that are trading over the counter.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: And also,
6:04
SPEAKER_01: very recently,
6:05
SPEAKER_01: we allow our investors to buy and sell Euro bonds,
6:09
SPEAKER_01: all the Euro bonds that are listed on the African continent.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: The other thing is now on the buy side of the business, now we have discretionary funds.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: The main one is Mansa X, and I think we'll be delving into that shortly with more detail.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: And then other funds that allow you to do money markets or typically a money market
6:26
SPEAKER_01: fund would really be exposing you to short-term interest rate instruments and
6:29
SPEAKER_01: equity funds,
6:30
SPEAKER_01: which would typically be exposing you to NSE,
6:34
SPEAKER_01: locally denominated equities.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: We rarely get to hear about the other products.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: That's why it's important to also clarify some of the things that you do.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Now, Mansa X is one of your proudest products.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can tell us a bit why you're most proud of this product and what exactly
6:47
SPEAKER_00: does Mansa X entail and maybe a brief history to it that led to its formation.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes,
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Mansa X is a product that we're very proud of because when we started this product,
6:57
SPEAKER_01: it was actually client-driven.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: We started this product because clients actually asked us to create something that
7:04
SPEAKER_01: would allow them to navigate the bears and bullish seasons.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And the local markets at the time were really just the local stock markets,
7:11
SPEAKER_01: local fixed income markets,
7:13
SPEAKER_01: which again were not really accessible to investors with anything less than 100,000 shillings,
7:18
SPEAKER_01: for example.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: And then maybe just real estate.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: For a very long time, investors could only invest in those three asset classes.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of our investors were concerned because when these asset classes were not
7:28
SPEAKER_01: doing very well,
7:29
SPEAKER_01: then they had to tolerate bearish periods.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: And we had a really tough time in capital markets.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure Mokaya says that for over 10 years, we didn't even have a listing on the NSC.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: So if we didn't have a listing on the NSC,
7:42
SPEAKER_01: there was nothing to really infect the markets with any enthusiasm to trade local assets.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: It didn't help that the global financial crisis also created a very difficult
7:52
SPEAKER_01: environment for capital markets outside the United States,
7:55
SPEAKER_01: especially because even as the financial crisis was solved by capital injection by
8:01
SPEAKER_01: the Federal Reserve post-2008,
8:04
SPEAKER_01: a lot of this did not actually create value for frontier markets such as ourselves.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: So it's around that period,
8:10
SPEAKER_01: about eight years later in 2016,
8:13
SPEAKER_01: that we started asking ourselves,
8:14
SPEAKER_01: why is it that Kenyan investors,
8:16
SPEAKER_01: a typical Kenyan has exposure to a lot of things globally.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: A Kenyan investor wakes up, he can access bar to go to the office, can order food online.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: He can go home and watch a movie on Netflix.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: But for some reason, when he goes to his financial advisor,
8:31
SPEAKER_01: The only investment assets it can be accessible to are really just one or three
8:36
SPEAKER_01: stocks in the stock exchange in Kenya and maybe buying a plot somewhere outside the
8:41
SPEAKER_01: region of Nairobi as some sort of speculatory investment.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: So we asked ourselves,
8:45
SPEAKER_01: why don't we then create a platform where investors can have access to financial
8:51
SPEAKER_01: instruments that are not necessarily domiciled in the Kenyan space?
8:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's how Mansa X was born.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Why we named it Mansa X?
8:57
SPEAKER_01: We named it after Mansa Musa.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: Mansa Musa was and still remains the richest man who ever lived.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: And he was actually from the kingdom of Mali in West Africa.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's said that when he was going for his Islamic Hajj,
9:12
SPEAKER_01: he had so much gold that he actually donated along the way that he caused a
9:16
SPEAKER_01: depreciation in the price of gold for 10 years.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: So the reason why we named this Mansa,
9:21
SPEAKER_01: therefore,
9:22
SPEAKER_01: was really to allude to the fact that you can actually create a Kenyan fund that is
9:28
SPEAKER_01: naturally Kenyan,
9:28
SPEAKER_01: therefore locally domiciled,
9:30
SPEAKER_01: but with global exposure and still create prosperity for
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Kenyan investors with that angle.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: So a Kenyan investor who doesn't know anything about a stock like Raytheon,
9:41
SPEAKER_01: for example,
9:42
SPEAKER_01: can actually be able to invest in this fund and still get a return from the stock
9:46
SPEAKER_01: price movement in a stock that's traded thousands of miles away on the New York
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Stock Exchange.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: We got our license at the tail end of
9:54
SPEAKER_01: from the Capital Markets Authority.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: And since then, we've grown the fund for the last six years.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: And we are happy to see that our investors have actually believed in our dream and
10:07
SPEAKER_01: they have been very well rewarded for that.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you could give a bit of flavor in terms of how the growth has been the
10:13
SPEAKER_00: past couple of years in terms of numbers and also emphasize the fact that it's regulated.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: I think who regulates the product, people can get a bit of flavor on that.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we started at zero because we started with our own proprietary capital at that time.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: And we really had to run with the fact that this was a concept that we were fairly
10:32
SPEAKER_01: certain would make sense to investors.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: And for that period, we have grown to manage.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: And now we're managing over 30 billion shillings under the Mansa X funds.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: And we have grown to have a client base of about 17,000 clients.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: We are regulated and continue to be supervised by the Capital Markets Authority.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: They're the ones who gave us a license.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: And Capital Markets Authority,
10:53
SPEAKER_01: first of all,
10:54
SPEAKER_01: they're already the ones that licensed us to be an investment bank.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: So our investment banking license comes from the Capital Markets Authority.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: But the license to also run Mansa X comes from the CMA.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: We started as what you'd call a money manager.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: So we started as a money manager.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: That's what the license was.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: That was the tail end of 2018.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: But now we are now categorized as what you call a special fund by the CMA,
11:16
SPEAKER_01: meaning that for all intents and purposes,
11:18
SPEAKER_01: we then operate as what you call a collective investment scheme,
11:21
SPEAKER_01: but within certain defined rules that are unique to funds such as Mansa X.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: And very recently,
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Mansa X was also now also licensed by the Retirement Benefits Authority to actually
11:33
SPEAKER_01: also invest funds on behalf of retirees and pensioners.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: Again,
11:37
SPEAKER_01: this is something that we are very proud of because we are also trying to push the
11:42
SPEAKER_01: idea that pensioners are also deserving of a higher than average return than what
11:47
SPEAKER_01: they have been exposed to for a very long time in capital markets in Kenya.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: And then you have two funds, the USD and the KES, give a brief breakdown on each fund.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: I think the KES fund was the first and then the USD fund.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you can give a bit of context to what the two funds do.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes, when we started the fund, it was something that we grappled with.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Should we make it a Kenyan ship?
12:09
SPEAKER_01: fund or a usd fund but we settled on the kenya shilling fund because at the time
12:14
SPEAKER_01: that was easier for investors locally to understand and the average return for the
12:20
SPEAKER_01: kenya shilling fund for the last five years has been about 17.6 percent but at the
12:23
SPEAKER_01: tail end of 2022 we also started the dollar fund
12:29
SPEAKER_01: A lot of this came because of a lot of our clients.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Again,
12:32
SPEAKER_01: we tend to be very client-driven and client-centric at SAB,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: where our clients had anxieties around a depreciation of their wealth because of
12:41
SPEAKER_01: the Kenya shilling losing value against the dollar.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's when we started the dollar fund,
12:45
SPEAKER_01: and we have been able to average above 12% for the dollar fund since inception.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: So all these returns,
12:52
SPEAKER_01: we feel returns that have given are fairly reasonable above the average return in
12:57
SPEAKER_01: the market,
12:57
SPEAKER_01: proving the concept that exposure to asset classes outside the local ones without
13:02
SPEAKER_01: increasing disproportionate risk will always give a better return than what clients
13:07
SPEAKER_01: were exposed to for a very long time.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: And then maybe a reminder to our audience,
13:11
SPEAKER_00: if you have any questions just below the pinned tweet,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: you can type them and then you can also DM us and we'll take notes of those
13:16
SPEAKER_00: questions that you have for SAP and specifically for ManzaX.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: So on ManzaX itself, what kind of investors would be best suited to invest in that fund?
13:25
SPEAKER_00: And what's the minimum investment required maybe to proceed to participate in
13:28
SPEAKER_00: either the KES or the USD fund?
13:30
SPEAKER_01: I'd say any investor who's looking to genuinely diversify a portfolio.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: Because one of the things that we worry about as investment bankers or one of the
13:40
SPEAKER_01: things that we see that make us very uncomfortable is seeing investors not
13:44
SPEAKER_01: necessarily being very well diversified.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: So if the stock market is doing very well,
13:49
SPEAKER_01: we see investors tend to then put all their eggs in one basket and go into the
13:53
SPEAKER_01: stock market.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Even if they diversify by buying different stock, they're still exposed to one stock exchange.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: If they are looking to avoid exposure to the stock market,
14:02
SPEAKER_01: they go and they buy bonds,
14:03
SPEAKER_01: again exposed to one sovereign debt and so on.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: In Mansa X, we created a fund that creates genuine diversification.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: If I could just explain, we have different asset classes that Mansa X actually invests in.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: The first one is equities, meaning we buy shares in companies from around the world.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: Then we have stock indices,
14:20
SPEAKER_01: meaning stock indices like the FTSE and the German DAX,
14:25
SPEAKER_01: the Japanese Nikkei,
14:26
SPEAKER_01: meaning lumped up stocks.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: And then we can actually buy the index in itself for investors,
14:31
SPEAKER_01: again,
14:32
SPEAKER_01: exposing investors to those different markets.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: We also buy and sell commodities on behalf of investors,
14:38
SPEAKER_01: so like natural gas,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: oil,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: and also soft commodities.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: In fact, very recently, even commodities like coffee and cocoa.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: We also have exposure to precious metals like gold and silver,
14:49
SPEAKER_01: and then ETF,
14:50
SPEAKER_01: exchange-traded funds,
14:51
SPEAKER_01: again with exposure to asset classes from around the world.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: The kind of investor who comes into Mansa X is a kind of investor who's looking to
14:59
SPEAKER_01: genuinely diversify their portfolio.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: And again, if you look at the kind of investors, we've had investors who are typically aspirational.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: They are very well exposed to what's going on in the world.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: An investor who, for example, right now we're on Twitter.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: now known as X. And this is, for example, is an investor who knows that this company exists.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: So why should we not allow an investor like that to be in a fund that can actually
15:22
SPEAKER_01: buy stock in Twitter,
15:24
SPEAKER_01: for example?
15:25
SPEAKER_01: So those are the kind of investors that we have.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: And we dare say most Kenyans tend to fit that profile.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: And the only Kenyans we had actually not created a product for a very long time
15:36
SPEAKER_01: were really the Muslim clients.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: And therefore,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: last year we actually created Sharia versions of Mansa X.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: So now we have a Sharia version of Mansa X Kenya Shilling Fund to call it Mansa X
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Kenya Shilling Fund.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: And then we also have the Mansa X Dollar Sharia Fund.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: And again,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: this is really to show you that we have a lot of demand from all walks of life in
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Kenya for this product.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: Now,
15:58
SPEAKER_01: there's a great misunderstanding amongst the investing public that Mansa X has a
16:04
SPEAKER_01: higher risk than your average fund.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: And we always argue that it's actually the other way around.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: If you're investing in a wider array of asset classes,
16:12
SPEAKER_01: you tend to have a likelier chance of having a higher return without actually
16:17
SPEAKER_01: creating the disproportionate downside risk.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: And like most of the other funds that typically would only have one or two asset
16:24
SPEAKER_01: classes that are domiciled locally.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: If you look at most funds in Kenya right now,
16:28
SPEAKER_01: almost all of them are biased towards investing in Kenyan government bonds.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: And we are one of the few funds,
16:34
SPEAKER_01: I believe,
16:35
SPEAKER_01: I'd say maybe the only one,
16:36
SPEAKER_01: that actually exposes investors to all manner of asset classes,
16:40
SPEAKER_01: therefore removing the over-reliance on one asset class.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: So an investor who's looking to genuinely diversify their portfolio with a
16:49
SPEAKER_01: reasonable return,
16:50
SPEAKER_01: Mansa X is definitely the place they should be looking at.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: And then in terms of investing,
16:54
SPEAKER_00: then how do the funds flow from the investor to you,
16:57
SPEAKER_00: then to investing and then the other way around?
17:00
SPEAKER_00: If their funds are in their bank accounts, how do they get them to you and then you get to invest?
17:04
SPEAKER_01: There are very many ways they can reach out to us.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: They can reach out to us online.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: We have a website that allows them to actually interact with financial advisors.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: They can also call directly to the office and we'll have our financial advisors
17:16
SPEAKER_01: guide them through the process,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: which is great.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Fairly simple.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: We have custody banks that we work with.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: Our main custodial bank is INM Bank.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: So they will transfer funds from their bank account to INM Bank.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Then from INM Bank, we will then access those funds for purposes of trading.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Withdrawing funds is also exactly the same.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: They will then reach out to us for withdrawal funds and we will then send the funds
17:41
SPEAKER_01: directly from our custody account at INM Bank back to their account.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: And this is a fairly...
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Quick process typically doesn't take more than 48 hours.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's really dependent on the bank that they bank with because our custodian is pretty fast.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think INM is one of the partners that we've worked with that has done an excellent job.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: The reason why we work with custodians is also for safety of client funds.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: From a regulatory perspective,
18:04
SPEAKER_01: custodians,
18:05
SPEAKER_01: typically the funds that they hold are not subject to the balance sheet of the bank.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: So they are really protected from anything that happens to the bank from a regulatory perspective.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: And this is one of the reasons we work with custodial banks.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Very recently, one of the things that we've had to change about the funds is now including trustees.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Trustees now work with Mansa X to protect the interests of the clients.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: And this was really a regulatory reason because of how quickly and how big the fund has grown.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: The regulator insists that we must have trustees to really take care of the investor interest.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things,
18:40
SPEAKER_01: again,
18:40
SPEAKER_01: we are very proud to quickly to be one of the first funds of our nature.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: to quickly comply with a CMA on this request.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: So that's how an investor would join the fund.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Withdrawal funds very easy.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Every investor who joins SID to invest in the Mansa X fund will always get a
18:57
SPEAKER_01: financial advisor and that financial advisor becomes their go-to person for either
19:02
SPEAKER_01: top ups into their accounts or withdrawals from the account.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: A key question often I think then maybe need to emphasize is in terms of liquidity of the fund.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people have previously invested in some funds and when it's time
19:14
SPEAKER_00: to get the money out,
19:15
SPEAKER_00: then you find there's a huge hurdle in terms of that aspect of investing.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Maybe speak to the people in the audience who are worried about that point when I need my money.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: What stops SID from keeping my money and how fast can I get my money?
19:30
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a real worry which we need to speak to.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Actually, I really like that we're having that conversation.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I've always mentioned to investors is a big concern for me
19:41
SPEAKER_01: personally when I started running this fund was a lot of investors in Kenya only
19:46
SPEAKER_01: ever talk about returns and nobody ever talks about liquidity.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Nobody ever talks about how quickly can I access my funds.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: So at Mansa X, the reason we invest in liquid assets is
19:56
SPEAKER_01: That's why we invest in stocks, we invest in bonds, we invest in metals, commodities.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: And we invest in this with brokerages around the world.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: It's exactly to solve that issue.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: We will actually often give up return for the sake of liquidity.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: So liquidity is very important in Mansa X.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And I dare say we are a very liquid fund,
20:16
SPEAKER_01: if not one of the most liquid funds in Kenya.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: We are actually able to pay investors as and when they request for their funds.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: So this is actually something that we actually specifically designed so that
20:28
SPEAKER_01: investors will never have to say,
20:30
SPEAKER_01: OK,
20:30
SPEAKER_01: I had a very good return,
20:32
SPEAKER_01: but I couldn't access my funds.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: That's one big worry we had.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: That's why even when we started,
20:36
SPEAKER_01: we actually bypassed assets like heavy investments in real estate that would
20:40
SPEAKER_01: actually jeopardize our liquidity position.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: Very important.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very specific need for a lot of people.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: I think one aspect that people don't consider a lot,
20:49
SPEAKER_00: maybe given a background for a lot of individuals,
20:52
SPEAKER_00: is often always that if you have extra liquid cash,
20:54
SPEAKER_00: you want to put it in land and real estate projects.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: And I've been to a couple of friends that realize even disposing of these assets is not usually easy.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's good to also emphasize the aspect of when you're investing in any particular asset.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why we needed to deal with that question there.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a good segue to the next question,
21:10
SPEAKER_00: which is what type of financial instruments are you using to yourself to invest?
21:13
SPEAKER_00: To the extent that they're not proprietary,
21:16
SPEAKER_00: you can share with us some of the insights in terms of what tools do you use to
21:20
SPEAKER_00: invest in some of these markets that you're invested in?
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Because you're invested in an array of assets from commodities to Euro bonds,
21:27
SPEAKER_00: to all these stocks and all.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Do you think you can give us a play on some of this?
21:30
SPEAKER_00: And also at the same time,
21:31
SPEAKER_00: coming back to the same question,
21:32
SPEAKER_00: you've addressed it before,
21:33
SPEAKER_00: but if you can give us a few pointers on the various
21:36
SPEAKER_00: asset classes that you've been invested in the past and that you could be investing in currently?
21:40
SPEAKER_01: That's a good question,
21:41
SPEAKER_01: because when we say,
21:43
SPEAKER_01: for example,
21:44
SPEAKER_01: that we have an exposure in a stock like Alphabet,
21:48
SPEAKER_01: I guess that's what you're asking.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: How do we then invest in that asset class?
21:52
SPEAKER_01: So if we buy a stock, for example, in a certain company or buy an instrument, say a U.S.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: 10-year treasury bond,
21:59
SPEAKER_01: We can buy it in a number of ways.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Of course, the most vanilla one is buying it in cash.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: All right.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: So if I have a million dollars, I buy a million dollars worth of this stock.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: But we also employ the use of derivatives.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: For example, we'll use options and we'll use this for reasons such as hedging as well.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Because in Mansa X, we have long and short positions in everything that we hold.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: And this is one of the reasons why we are also one of the most genuinely diversified funds.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: So if I'm long tech stocks,
22:26
SPEAKER_01: I will also look for stocks in the tech market where I'm short,
22:30
SPEAKER_01: meaning that I will be looking to prevent myself from losing or rather wiping out
22:35
SPEAKER_01: my return if the value of tech stocks in the market actually fall.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: And typically then I'd look to be long,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: meaning I'm buying the tech stocks that are very well placed,
22:45
SPEAKER_01: but then also being short tech stocks that are not too well placed.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: So meaning that if the stock market started...
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Having a very unfair and unfair opinion or maybe even a fair opinion of tech stocks
22:57
SPEAKER_01: and the stock market started having a crash in tech stocks.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: Then typically the ones that are not doing well will be the first ones to fall.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: And then we would actually make money from those stocks.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: By the time we exit the ones that we are long,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: then we have not lost any money or at least not as much as a fund that had only
23:12
SPEAKER_01: invested in stock in a long position would be.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm really trying not to be technical on this,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: but we employ,
23:18
SPEAKER_01: therefore,
23:19
SPEAKER_01: a mix of what you call cash and derivatives to create a very genuinely hedged
23:24
SPEAKER_01: position in the fund.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the biggest advantages of a fund like Mansa X.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: If you look at TWIN,
23:31
SPEAKER_01: for example,
23:32
SPEAKER_01: during COVID,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: this is a time when obviously everybody would have said we are done.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: We're not going to make any money.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: But during COVID, crude prices, for example, crashed.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: We actually saw what you call negative prices in an asset class.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: That was a new one even for markets.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: And again, as Mansayex, we actually made a return in that year.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: of about 15% net of fees in a year like that,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: purely because we were one of the few funds that would actually go short markets.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: For example, crude oil, we were short during that period and natural gas.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: And we were actually able to be short oil and actually make a return from that.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: So these are some of the things that we can do.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Then,
24:08
SPEAKER_01: of course,
24:09
SPEAKER_01: the reverse is also true when we had something like the Russian invasion of Ukraine
24:16
SPEAKER_01: in 2022.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: We actually saw a sharp spike in commodities like wheat and natural gas.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: And again, we were able to take an advantage of that.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: What I'm trying to say here is it's not just a diversification in the number of
24:30
SPEAKER_01: asset classes that we trade.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: It's also a diversification in the strategies that we use to buy or sell those assets.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: And that's very unique to the Mansa X fund.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if Mokai have explained that properly.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think you have.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: For the audience who are not very technically savvy,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: going long particular asset is buying it and going short is when you think like
24:50
SPEAKER_00: it's going to go down in price.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: You sell it now and then buy it later.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: And then you make a kill from the difference.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a very good way to explain that.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: of the areas that you've invested in.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of questions,
25:00
SPEAKER_00: so we may,
25:01
SPEAKER_00: I may segue into questions in a few minutes,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: but I wanted to maybe quickly give you a bit of time to explain the returns and the
25:07
SPEAKER_00: various funds and how they've been over the years.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Of course, past returns don't guarantee future returns.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: That's very important, but it's good to do a history of how the fund has been performing so far.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Very good.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: So last quarter was one of our best ones.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: We had a very good quarter at the beginning of this year.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: where our annualized Q1 return was actually 22.48 after fees for the Kenya Shilling
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Fund and 13.92 for the Dollar Fund.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Last year, our Kenya Shilling Fund returned 18.01% after fees and 12.1% after fees for the Dollar Fund.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Top 10 holdings for the Mansa X Fund last year, actually full out.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: was really a euro bond.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: And I forgot to mention euro bonds.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: We've had clients asking us why we have holdings in euro bonds that seem quite significant.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: We actually reduced them by over 20% the last quarter.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: That's because, and I had mentioned this,
26:01
SPEAKER_01: last year,
26:02
SPEAKER_01: because we do a lot of YouTube videos and I'd advise a lot of our listeners today,
26:06
SPEAKER_01: whether existing or potential investors to actually visit our YouTube videos and watch.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I had actually mentioned was we actually failed a lot of Euro bonds,
26:16
SPEAKER_01: especially the Kenyan ones were grossly undervalued.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Some of their bonds,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Euro bonds we bought last year had yields in excess of 20% and we were able to exit
26:27
SPEAKER_01: those positions at
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Closer to 10%, you can imagine, Mokaya.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: So those were asset classes that we felt had been really ignored.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: So our top 10 holdings, we had Eurobonds, we had Crude Oil, we had exposure to Microsoft.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: We're in the S&P 500.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Significant positions also in Gold, Nvidia, Novo Nordisk.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Pharmaceutical companies have always done very well for us over the years.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think I mentioned this a few times during our talks.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Stocks like Novo Nordisk,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Modana,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Eli Lilly,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: especially for Novo Nordisk with a drug like Ozempic,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: it's really sent the stock rallying and we've really taken advantage of that.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: We saw commodities like cocoa,
27:05
SPEAKER_01: for example,
27:06
SPEAKER_01: in the first quarter of this year,
27:07
SPEAKER_01: cocoa actually accelerated by over 130% in value,
27:12
SPEAKER_01: which is quite significant.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: So you can imagine those kind of moves in markets have really helped the fund to make a return.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: On average now, looking back now over the last five years, our average return is close to 18% after fees.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of people who say we can get the same return by buying a Kenyan infrastructure bond.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: What you don't get when you buy an infrastructure bond is the fact that if Mansa X
27:35
SPEAKER_01: allows you to have a return of 18%,
27:36
SPEAKER_01: it's the same 18% if you needed to withdraw tomorrow morning.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: But with an infrastructure bond,
27:43
SPEAKER_01: if it's floated at a coupon of say 18%,
27:46
SPEAKER_01: then when you're trying to sell it,
27:47
SPEAKER_01: you'd have to be subject to market forces.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: And typically, if you're not a big investor, that will quickly drop easily to even as low as 16, 15%.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's the difference with Mansa X. So it's very important for investors to know that
27:59
SPEAKER_01: when it compares to bonds like IFBs,
28:02
SPEAKER_01: those bonds are only giving you that return,
28:05
SPEAKER_01: what we call yield in the market,
28:07
SPEAKER_01: if you hold them for those 10,
28:08
SPEAKER_01: 15,
28:08
SPEAKER_01: 20 years.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's a big difference.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: You spoke about fees.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: So it's good to speak about how much in terms of percentage of fees that you charge.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: And some people are complaining those fees are very high.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you can tell them why you charge that fees that you charge.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: This is something we've had to deal with from the beginning.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: And Mokaya, you can imagine we've had this question about fees even before we had a return.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: So we charge this fee purely because of how administratively involving it is to run a fund like this.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: First,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: from the type of traders that you have to hire,
28:40
SPEAKER_01: they have to be very proficient traders at their craft.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: And of course, that comes at a very heavy cost.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: The number of brokerages that we have to work with, we have brokerages
28:51
SPEAKER_01: We have brokerages locally.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: We have brokerages in New York, London, by Madrid.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: We have brokerages everywhere.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: And this comes at a very significant cost, the systems that we have to implement.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: All this, again, creates a fund that, yes, is expensive to run.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: But fortunately,
29:08
SPEAKER_01: that expense has been able over time to be proven to still squeeze a return,
29:12
SPEAKER_01: even with those fees that might look higher,
29:15
SPEAKER_01: still give a return better than fund managers who might charge less than we do,
29:19
SPEAKER_01: but still give you a lower return.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can tell people a bit about how you do risk management there and then how
29:25
SPEAKER_00: long your holding period is for some of the assets that you're trading in.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: And after this, we'll switch to questions from the audience.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay,
29:32
SPEAKER_01: so risk management,
29:33
SPEAKER_01: of course,
29:33
SPEAKER_01: the overall risk management framework is really just governed by being within a
29:38
SPEAKER_01: regulatory space.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: So having your CMA as your regulator constantly inspecting the fund as they do,
29:44
SPEAKER_01: that by itself is already a risk management tool.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the most powerful ones.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Then,
29:49
SPEAKER_01: of course,
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Mansa X is domiciled within an investment bank that's very well governed from a
29:56
SPEAKER_01: corporate governance perspective.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: You have a very strong board of directors.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: And then under that board of directors, you have various committees that oversee the running of the fund.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: So you have the investment committee, you have the compliance committee, you have the risk committee.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: And then after that,
30:11
SPEAKER_01: then you have a portfolio manager like myself,
30:13
SPEAKER_01: that's my daily job,
30:14
SPEAKER_01: who I then have to manage a team of dealers.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: And within this team of dealers,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: you then have limits as to what they can trade and not trade and the risks that
30:25
SPEAKER_01: they can take.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of these are automated.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: In fact,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: our risk management system really automates what you call our stop loss levels,
30:34
SPEAKER_01: meaning that,
30:34
SPEAKER_01: for example,
30:35
SPEAKER_01: even if you bought a certain stock and as a trader you felt,
30:38
SPEAKER_01: no,
30:38
SPEAKER_01: I can hold it for longer because I think it will turn,
30:41
SPEAKER_01: the system will automatically stop it for you.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: So we have very automated methods of risk management.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Again, a lot of these are not very unique to the fund.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: If you look at funds globally, they've used the same techniques for risk management.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: And we were really one of the first funds locally to really implement
30:58
SPEAKER_01: them in the way that we have.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: So we are very confident about our risk management.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: A couple of questions here.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: One is for you.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: I'll start with this one.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Why did you leave KCB?
31:08
SPEAKER_00: I think I'll combine that.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: The other one who says that you're the front man for the fund.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: So they are worried about key man risk.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: In case you ever leave, you can combine those and we can start there.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: Why did I leave KCB?
31:20
SPEAKER_01: I worked for KCB.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: I worked at the trading desk of KCB and I left KCB to join Bank of Africa at the time.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: At the time,
31:28
SPEAKER_01: I was really working for different banks in various trading capacities and moving
31:33
SPEAKER_01: from KCB to Bank of Africa was really just a career move.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: That's all it was.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: Then in terms of human risk, it's something that I worried about, especially when we started MansaX.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: But now I would confidently say that the fund has more than enough capacity to hold
31:49
SPEAKER_01: its own,
31:50
SPEAKER_01: whether or not Nahashon is present or not.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: We have a very capable team working there,
31:56
SPEAKER_01: whether it's on the trading division,
31:58
SPEAKER_01: whether it's in terms of client management,
32:00
SPEAKER_01: whether it's from a compliance perspective.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: whether it's a board of directors,
32:04
SPEAKER_01: whether it's an investment committee,
32:06
SPEAKER_01: the fund is large enough to hold its own and therefore not necessarily dependent on
32:11
SPEAKER_01: the hashing.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Someone is talking about, does each deposit have to stay in for six months?
32:16
SPEAKER_00: So once they put money in,
32:17
SPEAKER_00: do you have a period within which you have to restrict maybe people to investing in
32:21
SPEAKER_00: the fund?
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's called a locking period.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: And the reason we have a locking period is because our fund is fairly liquid to
32:30
SPEAKER_01: allow investors to really withdraw at any time.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: But we find that a lot of investors would then lose a lot of value if they invest
32:37
SPEAKER_01: and then withdraw their funds far too quickly.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that we have actually never implemented is a penalty for withdrawal of funds.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: OK, so we've had investors who withdrawn prior to six months.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: We don't have a penalty.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: The only thing we now decided is we will not then pay a return for that period
32:57
SPEAKER_01: because the fund has become fairly large.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: And if you then don't apply some sort of something that stops them from withdrawing
33:03
SPEAKER_01: before the six months are over,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: you can create some sort of liquidity issue within the fund.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: So that's the only thing.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: However,
33:10
SPEAKER_01: we are very open talking to investors if they need to withdraw their funds for any
33:15
SPEAKER_01: sort of emergency.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: Again, like I mentioned, every investor gets a financial advisor who they can speak to.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And we're able to deal with this from a case-to-case basis.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: What I'm saying,
33:23
SPEAKER_01: Mokaya,
33:24
SPEAKER_01: is if you're trying to withdraw your funds because you have an emergency at home,
33:28
SPEAKER_01: you will not meet a stone-faced person at SIB telling you that we will not pay you
33:34
SPEAKER_01: anything because you needed your funds.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: We are very open and we deal on things on a case-by-case basis.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: And then someone again about the management fee, like on a product charge, like 220 something like that.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Now 5%, is 5% purely management or do you also charge on returns by the way?
33:49
SPEAKER_01: It's only, the 5% of course is on the assets and the management.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: So if you invested a million with us and now next year your funds at 1.2 million,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: yes,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: so the 5% is on the 1.2 million.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: So yes, you'd say 5% is on the entire assets.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: now belong to you.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we've had clients asking us about the 220 rule.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Most hedge funds on Wall Street and around the world will charge that way.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: But our mode was really just to charge 5% because I dare say if you did the math
34:16
SPEAKER_01: for 220,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: you'll find that we charge less.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: If we charged our investors 2% of the funds that you invest with us and 20% of the
34:24
SPEAKER_01: returns that we generate for you,
34:26
SPEAKER_01: over time,
34:27
SPEAKER_01: you'll find that we'll actually make more.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: So we just chose to just make it simple for our investors.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Again,
34:32
SPEAKER_01: a big part of the reason why we ran it like that is really what we were facing in
34:36
SPEAKER_01: the local dynamic,
34:37
SPEAKER_01: and we had to work with the local dynamic as it are.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: We did not want to create a very complex fee management system that would become
34:44
SPEAKER_01: very difficult for potential investors to understand.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: Another question here is about there's a promise of more transparent reporting.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: He says the nature of the report does not show the layering of gains from quarter to quarter.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: I think someone wants a bit more information in terms of how the gains were gotten
34:59
SPEAKER_00: during a particular quarter.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: Does that feel too proprietary or is that something that you can promise?
35:03
SPEAKER_00: And then in that regard, there's something I've been asking also now in terms of risk metric.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Is this something that you have in mind to release to investors soon?
35:11
SPEAKER_00: So again...
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Even our fact sheet has slowly evolved over time to deal with concerns from investors.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: If you look at our fact sheet,
35:19
SPEAKER_01: our top 10 holdings,
35:20
SPEAKER_01: initially we never even used to say what percentage of the fund those assets constituted.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think the last time I spoke on these Twitter spaces, Mokai, I don't think we had this.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we had this.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: I should say that you do take feedback.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: I think I've seen a couple of metrics being released over time.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there is an evolving.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: If you check the sheets over time, it's changed.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: So what we're trying to do is always just listen to our clients.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: If it's reasonable, we will provide it.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: So we started providing our top 10 holdings and we started giving a percentage of
35:50
SPEAKER_01: exposure of that particular asset into the fund in terms of what that asset created
35:56
SPEAKER_01: as a return to the fund.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: That can quickly get very technical.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not very sure a lot of investors would even want that.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: However, this is something that if that particular investor wanted, they can reach out.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's the information.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: If it does not impede on our own proprietary as partials, then we can give them that.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: Someone is saying compounding effects to returns.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can speak to that.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Like if they invest now and then the returns at the end of the year, you do invest them back, right?
36:23
SPEAKER_01: The thing with Mansa is that ideally every day is in a sense a compounding effect
36:29
SPEAKER_01: or either positive or negative.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: Let me explain.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: If I start with a million today and for the next two days I gain $200,000 and then
36:37
SPEAKER_01: the next three days I then lose $100,000.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: So if day one the fund had earned a profit of $100,000,
36:44
SPEAKER_01: then day two you'd still be earning a return on the same $100,000 that you earned
36:49
SPEAKER_01: the previous day.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: But also,
36:51
SPEAKER_01: if there was a loss of that amount the previous day,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: then you'll be working with less capital because this is not a market guaranteed fund.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: That's why we like to expand the outlook of returns to a longer period.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: One of the challenges that we face with our Kenyan investors,
37:06
SPEAKER_01: they've been more exposed to straight line returns,
37:08
SPEAKER_01: where a lot of fund managers will typically invest in interest products.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: So if somebody invests in a bond that returns 15% in a year,
37:16
SPEAKER_01: then it's very easy to say 15% divided by 365,
37:19
SPEAKER_01: and therefore I compound that every year.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: But this is a fund that typically will give you an actual gain over a certain period of time.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: And this gain can be plus or minus a certain amount.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's why even for investors,
37:34
SPEAKER_01: it's the same reason why we really discourage very rapid withdrawal of funds unnecessarily.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: Unless of course you have an emergency,
37:41
SPEAKER_01: because then what happens is investors keep subjecting themselves to the cycles of
37:46
SPEAKER_01: market forces.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to compounding, that's a question that it gets very mathematical very quickly.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: But if you look at it, yes, from a yearly perspective, it's an easier question to answer that.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes,
37:56
SPEAKER_01: if we finish a year at 18% and you start the new year with an 18% return,
38:01
SPEAKER_01: then of course,
38:02
SPEAKER_01: then the next year it compounds on that naturally because essentially we invested
38:07
SPEAKER_01: your principal plus return in the second year.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: But if you then bring it down to a daily basis, it gets a lot more complex.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: There's a couple of questions.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: I think they should speak maybe to the average listener.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you may not be very savvy in financial markets.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: He is called Festus and he wants you to break it down for him.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: He gives you 1 million shillings today.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: In one year, in terms of returns, how much, given the history, like how much do you return in a year?
38:30
SPEAKER_01: So last year,
38:31
SPEAKER_01: if he had given us 1 million 1st of January,
38:33
SPEAKER_01: 31st of January,
38:34
SPEAKER_01: he'd have earned 180,000 and 10,000 shillings,
38:40
SPEAKER_01: give or take.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: Is that after fee?
38:42
SPEAKER_01: After fee.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: All right.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: So keep it simple like that for them.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: That's what they wanted.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: They wanted to understand.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: A million shillings would have earned you 180,000 at the end of the year.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Simple like that.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: All right.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: And then in terms of risk, what's the risk that you lose your capital?
38:57
SPEAKER_00: I think the person is worried about the risk of losing the initial capital in case of loss.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: First of all,
39:03
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to risk to capital,
39:05
SPEAKER_01: be very careful with a fund manager who says that there's no risk.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Anytime you engage in capital markets, just like any other business,
39:12
SPEAKER_01: Be very careful with anyone who tells you that there is no chance you can lose anything.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: But one of the things you can do is check their historical performance.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: So Mansa X has been in existence now in our sixth year and we have never lost a client's capital.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: So
39:27
SPEAKER_01: We have proven the concept that if you're well diversified,
39:30
SPEAKER_01: if you're constantly buying assets that are not correlated with each other in terms
39:35
SPEAKER_01: of market movement,
39:36
SPEAKER_01: then you're more likely to get a return without ever having to lose any of your capital.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: And we've proven that for six years.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: So I cannot answer that in a forward way,
39:45
SPEAKER_01: but I can only answer it based on how we've been able to perform for the last six years.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: We're fairly confident to invest with an investor who has been able to demonstrate
39:54
SPEAKER_01: the capacity to give me a return consistently for six years without denting my capital.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes, someone here alluded to some other Kenyan startup that was offering 18% guaranteed returns.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's very important to remember that there are no guaranteed returns in market.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: And whoever is offering you guaranteed returns is almost always picking that from someone else.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: I watched a documentary on Madoff, and I think that's what he did.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: He was letting people, it's a pyramid scheme.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: So the new people give you money and then you give out people guaranteed returns.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: So there are no guaranteed returns in investing.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: You should expect to lose some.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: The best thing you can do is assess the capabilities of the investment managers
40:30
SPEAKER_00: that you have and make sure that you're invested with people with a credible track
40:33
SPEAKER_00: record who have a good way of you getting money back.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very important thing to remember.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: If you look at our fact sheet,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: Mukai,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: just on your trail of thought there is that our fact sheet will show you that some
40:43
SPEAKER_01: quarters are better than others and others underperform other quarters.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: That is exactly how our market operates.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think our fact sheet is a really fair representation of how dynamic markets
40:55
SPEAKER_01: can be in terms of ability to give a return or not.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: If we had a fairly consistent straight line, I think it would have to be the luckiest people out there.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes, definitely.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: So risk is an inherent part of markets.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: So kindly remember that as you also invest.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: And when somebody is asking here about daily real-time flow returns,
41:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
41:15
SPEAKER_00: it's meaningless information.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: Like you don't want a bit of a link of how your account is doing.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: It detracts from the main business of trying to make money.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you can speak to that a little bit.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: When you said must, this was one of the things that we grappled with.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Some investors want, oh, can I get a daily report of how much my fund is making?
41:32
SPEAKER_01: If you did that,
41:33
SPEAKER_01: I guarantee you,
41:34
SPEAKER_01: even the investors who ask us that,
41:36
SPEAKER_01: if we give them a real-time view of their account,
41:39
SPEAKER_01: they would have sleepless nights.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: It's a very tough job.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: It's a very tough job.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: And that's why you pay us 5% to handle that pressure.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's why we came to a compromise and said, OK, fine, we will not give you yearly statements.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: We'll give you quarterly statements.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: At least then you wait only three months to get an idea of how your account is performing.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: And we feel that's a very good trade-off for those investors who are fairly anxious
42:03
SPEAKER_01: about whether their returns are okay and the ones who have a longer-term view.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: We found that a quarterly return was a good trade-off.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: A daily one would just be far too much for anybody,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: at least most of the people that we were engaged with.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: There's always that risk of often you also get distracted from the business of generating returns.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: And that's something that you have to keep looking at every day.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: I feel like you need to maybe change what you're investing in.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Investing should be something that stresses you that much.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: You're paying professionals to handle some stuff for you.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: There's a frequent mention of something called Forefront.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you can describe how that's different from MantaX.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: I understand it's a product within more SIB.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: So maybe you can speak to that a bit.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: So Forefront is one of the subsidiaries of SIB.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: Forefront is what you call a robo-advisor.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: So we pioneered a product that allows essentially algorithms.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like artificial intelligence, really.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: that then picks out an investor's risk appetites and horizons and so on,
43:02
SPEAKER_01: and then suggests an investment for them.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: So think of it as financial advisors who are robots.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: That's what Forefront is.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's our wealth management and can suggest various investments for you based on
43:14
SPEAKER_01: the profiling that they have for you.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's what Forefront really is.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: basically a robo-advisor.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: It's in the interest of leveraging technology to make sure that you deliver good investments to people.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's very important for people to understand that robo-advice.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: But there's no robo-advice at Banzai.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: It's you making decisions, right?
43:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: With Mansa X,
43:35
SPEAKER_01: you have the advantage of speaking to an actual human financial advisor who will
43:39
SPEAKER_01: advise you.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: And then you can then check whether that investment makes sense for you or not.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: You can have a million shillings and maybe 250,000 would be suitable for Mansa.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: Can we put 300 in this and so on?
43:52
SPEAKER_01: That is why we are also one of the few fund managers that has really pushed for
43:56
SPEAKER_01: financial advisors to be certified with the Chartered Institutes of Securities and Investment,
44:01
SPEAKER_01: CC,
44:02
SPEAKER_01: so that they are not just salespeople to you,
44:05
SPEAKER_01: and they are also financial advisors.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: And they actually genuinely advise you on whether investing in certain assets is
44:11
SPEAKER_01: safe or proper for you or not.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things that we also really encourage, that listen to your financial advisor.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: That's very important.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: And we have hired a lot of them to make sure our investors are well covered.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Very important also.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: Very good emphasis also points that you should search for a financial advisor
44:28
SPEAKER_00: before you make investments.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: A lot of investors don't want to pay for advice sometimes, but it saves you a lot of money.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Just ask if people have lost quite a bit of money in some products which are not
44:37
SPEAKER_00: suitable for your investments.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: So even the IFBs that are out there,
44:41
SPEAKER_00: they're good for investing,
44:42
SPEAKER_00: as you say,
44:43
SPEAKER_00: Nashon,
44:43
SPEAKER_00: but it's good to compare what's the trade-off I'm making in terms of risk.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people need to sell those IFBs after a couple of months,
44:50
SPEAKER_00: and it's quite a big problem to sell them off in the secondary market.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: It's not that easy to sell.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: interrupt you but that's that's why when you asked me the liquidity question i said
44:59
SPEAKER_01: that's actually a very fantastic question that a lot of kenyans never asked a lot
45:03
SPEAKER_01: of kenyans will ask you about return but nobody ever asked you about liquidity yes
45:07
SPEAKER_00: very important oh liquidity risk returns three components that go together very
45:12
SPEAKER_00: well
45:12
SPEAKER_00: a question here.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Someone is asking if you have competitors in the region and how did you set the hurdle rate?
45:19
SPEAKER_01: We do not have a competitor in the region, not in the way that we run this fund.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: And we set our hurdle rates.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest with you.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: We were probably a lot more ambitious when we started in terms of returns because
45:32
SPEAKER_01: we were much smaller then and we were really comparing ourselves to a lot of hedge
45:36
SPEAKER_01: funds globally.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: But the local dynamics also made us realize that
45:40
SPEAKER_01: One of the things,
45:41
SPEAKER_01: and that's one of the realizations we came to have in Kenya is that I think you can
45:45
SPEAKER_01: actually categorize most Kenyan investors as conservative investors.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: So we had set the hurdle rate much higher at 25% for the Kenyan shilling fund at 15% for the dollar fund.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: But over time,
45:57
SPEAKER_01: we have some investors who've received those kinds of returns,
46:00
SPEAKER_01: but we feel that right now we like to think of most of our investors as
46:04
SPEAKER_01: conservative investors.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's why,
46:06
SPEAKER_01: again,
46:07
SPEAKER_01: when I answered the question on the 220 fee management structure,
46:11
SPEAKER_01: I mentioned that we really had to look for something that's a trade-off between
46:14
SPEAKER_01: something that makes sense as a business running this kind of a fund and a
46:18
SPEAKER_01: trade-off of how investors in Kenya actually understand and perceive investments to
46:24
SPEAKER_01: be like and what actually works within a dynamic that they already understand.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes, lots of questions coming in.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: I see the questions.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: So I think what we need to do now is to maybe have a quarterly brief with you where
46:35
SPEAKER_00: you can have a chat with investors.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: We need to do this more often so we can be able to get some of these questions.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: One final question perhaps that can allow the audience is on taxes.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: What are some of the taxes applicable to ManzaX if someone invests in them?
46:48
SPEAKER_00: Maybe top of mind, quick taxes and maybe fees.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: Are there other hidden fees?
46:52
SPEAKER_00: Someone may also be surprised by at some point.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: I think that's important.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: So someone is asking, you compare that maybe to MMS, which have some withholding tax implications.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: So first of all, we already pay the taxman VAT on our fees.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: Already we pay 16% on our fee management, which is 5%.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: So we pay another 0.8% as taxes, which is already quite significant.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: This actually goes to reduce your retire as an investor.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: So your return is actually lower by 0.8% because of the VAT that we pay.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Then within the fund that we already pay withholding taxes for any asset classes
47:27
SPEAKER_01: that we buy or sell that are subject to withholding tax.
47:30
SPEAKER_01: So that's its fixed income tax or fixed deposit products or its shared dividends and so on.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: We already pay those taxes on your behalf.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Now, the return you actually receive as an investor has already had all those taxes subjected to them.
47:43
SPEAKER_01: Now,
47:43
SPEAKER_01: our fund is actually not a guaranteed return investment,
47:48
SPEAKER_01: and that's why it's not subject to withholding tax.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: When you compare with an MS,
47:52
SPEAKER_01: if they are buying a bond,
47:53
SPEAKER_01: for example,
47:54
SPEAKER_01: or they are investing in fixed deposit,
47:55
SPEAKER_01: then typically you're already expecting 10% at the end of the year,
47:58
SPEAKER_01: so the government would tax you 15% of that.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: But in Mansa X,
48:02
SPEAKER_01: you are subjecting yourself to market dynamics and the return you actually make
48:06
SPEAKER_01: would most closely be referred to as capital gain.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: And we don't have capital gains taxes in Kenya for capital markets products.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: In addition,
48:15
SPEAKER_01: with our new CIS accreditation that,
48:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:18
SPEAKER_01: we are the tail end of concluding,
48:19
SPEAKER_01: we are then also not subject to certain taxes and this will accrue as a benefit to investors.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: But of course,
48:26
SPEAKER_01: nowadays,
48:27
SPEAKER_01: taxes become such a sensitive topic that we are very careful to answer that
48:31
SPEAKER_01: question without adding that disclaimer that please check with your tax advisor to
48:35
SPEAKER_01: make sure that you're well covered in case a taxman comes for you.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a few minutes for a couple of questions or should we wind up here?
48:43
SPEAKER_01: Let's try and wind up because I can imagine we are in between something else.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: But I'm happy again to have this more often because any chance to get to engage our
48:51
SPEAKER_01: investors is a good opportunity for us.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: And markets are actually closing in the US soon.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: So you need to check some of the positions there.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time today.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: So maybe it can give you time to give us your closing thoughts and also tell people
49:03
SPEAKER_00: where they can find you and find your funders.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Mukai.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: You did very well and I really appreciate it.
49:08
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really appreciative of the clients who actually...
49:11
SPEAKER_01: you know, putting the time to listen to us this evening.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: You can find us on J. Quad Towers.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: Now, J. Quad Towers is the original ICA building.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: We're on Kenyatta Avenue on 16th floor.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: So you can come there and just ask for Mansa X,
49:25
SPEAKER_01: information on Mansa X.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: You'll be assigned a financial advisor very quickly who will guide you on how to,
49:32
SPEAKER_01: the next steps in terms of opening an account.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: Our email is clientservices at sib.co.ke.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: Shoot an email there immediately if you have any question that you feel I did not
49:43
SPEAKER_01: answer this evening and we'll get back to you as quickly as possible.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: And our website is mansa.sib.co.ke.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: You'll also get a lot more information there, mansa.sib.co.ke.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: And any question that you have,
49:58
SPEAKER_01: and you feel that,
49:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:59
SPEAKER_01: you'd want a response as quickly as possible,
50:01
SPEAKER_01: shoot again to clientservices at sib.co.uk.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: We will personally respond to you within a few hours.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Nashon.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: So for all who've joined us, thank you so much.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: This is one of the most well-attended spaces.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: We'll try to make regular places on market since there's quite a bit of interest in
50:15
SPEAKER_00: terms of investing in products that people can invest in.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for your time.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Standard Investment Bank, also for allowing us to have these spaces today.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Nashon.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Sana, everyone.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: And have a lovely evening.