Latest / Sutra Squad / Ep. 34 Sutra 2.40-41 on the First Niyama - Sauca or Cleanliness

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Ep. 34 Sutra 2.40-41 on the First Niyama - Sauca or Cleanliness · Sutra Squad

• Seth Barron: Hi Sutra Squad family. Before we start today's episode, we wanted to extend a special invitation for you to join us at Sacred India 2027, our pilgrimage along the sacred Ganges River in India. We'll be starting in Dev Prayag, where the last tributaries connect and the Ganga begins. We'll go down to the holy city of Rishikesh. We'll go on to Praya Graj, where the Yamuna meets the Ganges and this mystical Sarasvati River is said to join, and ending the trip in the holiest of holy cities. Varanasi, and every day we'll offer yogic practice. I'm gonna be offering power. I'll be offering satsang on the Yoga Sutra. And I'll be offering restorative yin and nature practice. Plus, if you've ever wanted to see the magic of the Sutra Squad podcast, we'll be recording a few special live episodes along the way. So all the information is live at sutrasquad.com. Click on the link for pilgrimage. You can find everything you need to know, and we really hope you'll be able to join us. On with the show. Every single body can practice yoga. Everybody is a yoga body. Period. Hello and welcome to the Sutra Squad podcast brought to you by One Deep Breath. My name is Seth Barron. It's a such a delight and a privilege to be with you with our superstar Sutra Squad, Sally Moore. Hello. And Sarah Page Hall. Hello. Hello. Sally, what's one word that describes how you feel right in this moment right now? That's what I was distracting because I knew that question was coming next. Don't think, just the answer. One word. Fragile. Sarah Page. Now I feel a little scattered. A little scattered. I I feel a little tender. I feel a little tender. I need to give y'all a hug. Hug. Hugs. Big hug. well, I I to me, there's like no better place to sort of be with that than right here. So we're at a really again, like we're we're deep in the heart of of our study in the eight limbs of yoga. We completed the series on the first limb, the first principle of yoga, the yamas. And the yamas are the Sometimes it's translated as restraints. I like to think of it as like the moral, like outward observances of the yogi. Like all philosophical traditions, there's like a a moral code of yoga that we that we learn. And it begins with ahimsa, the practice of non-harming or nonviolence. And then satya, the cultivation of truth, with maybe the aspiration toward truth. Asteya, not taking that's what's not ours. Brahmacharya, to walk with the divine and to bring a sense of divine purpose into all areas of our life and to practice a sense of continence in the direction of our vital energy. And last week we talked about aparigraha and as non-grasping, non-covetousness, deeply tied to contentment, which is not complacent, and a sense that. Like when we stop reaching beyond our grasp, we actually can come to see the true purpose of our place. we can begin to understand a sense of svvadharma, like our own personal, individual purpose, path, and sanatandharma, like the how it fits into this like eternal network of of of purpose, divine purpose. And our You know, our our little place to our little cog in the great big giant karma machine of the material world. And so now we go to the second limb of the yogic system, the niyamas. And ni is a prefix that means like inward or or like internal or turning in. and so it's like the it's like the personal observances or sometimes call referred to as the personal practices. of the yoga of the yogi. And again, there are five. And so this week we begin with the first principle of Niyama, which is shoucha. Trying my best, I think this is the co the most technically correct pronunciation. It's like a it's a soft shh sound. So we in English tend to make that sh sh sound at the front of the palate. But if you get really sort of particular, Sanskrit uses sounds that we don't really use in English. And this is one of them. It's like a similar placement, but it's like the middle of your tongue grazing the top of your soft palate. So it sounds sort of more like shou cha. So it's not that like front, like shoucha. It's shoucha. And a C when transliterated is usually a ch sound. So To spell it more like phonetically, you might spell it S H A U C H A, but it is usually transliterated from the Sanskrit as S, sometimes with an accent. And that's again that sound. Like I try I don't think you can see it in the video. I'm not gonna be get weird and like sh like try to get my mouth up to the screen. But it's that like it's like the the sort of like the the not the tip of your tongue, but like behind the tip of your tongue. like creates friction at the soft palate, like in the middle of the top of your mouth. Shout, ch and then that's a ch sound. And it's again like so it's and it means a cleanliness or a purification. And as we do, I'll chant and we're gonna look at it's actually and there's and also like very fascinatingly, there are two verses about this one Niyama. So All five of the Yamas have one verse each for them. Ahimsa, Satya, Asteya, Brahmacharya, and Aparikaraha all each have one verse. But Shoucha has two verses. And that that I think connotes a depth of complexity to the the idea and its importance. Because, you know, I think like many of like many Many interpreters and and like, you know, the the the Yoga Sutra is thought to be of you know of divine inspir of divine transmission. And so every word and and the sequence all c all contribute to our understanding of the meaning. And part of what we hope to be able to offer in this podcast in this sort of like step-by-step study is a little bit of deeper explanation. We were just talking about this before we started recording that like. there's a very sort of surface level understanding, and then there's like a very much a deeper understanding. And we're gonna try to like acknowledge the way it's taught in like a lot of 200-hour teacher training programs and as the most literal expression, and use our time together today to get into those more subtle, into the subtle complexity of the of the principle. But to start, we will I will chant the verse. And I invite you to just get them take a moment and notice how your physical form is organized and maybe sit up tall in your seat. I even have noticed that like when I adjust the settings of my chair for a moment, it actually supports my chair has a tendency to lean back and I want to sit up nice and tall. And I'm gonna bring my hands together in front of my heart. If you're listening to us, you can certainly join me. And if you can just close your eyes and again, like let that practice of pratyahara, the Closing of your eyes to turn your attention inward. Just support like a little scan. Just notice how you feel. Like notice the quality of your breath. Together let's take a deep breath in. And a deep breath out. And feel free to join me if you are able for one vibration of inhale. So the two verses are Yoga Sutra 240 and 41. I'm gonna chant the first Yoga Sutra 240. Shout Svang. I'm gonna start that one again. because I I just I practiced this before and then I just messed that up. It's Svanga Jugupsa. It's a little t it's a l it's again, it's a six sequence of war of sounds we don't make in English that that often. So let's try that again. Shoucha Sunga Jugsa Par Sara Sar Mmm Para Sam Sarga. My tongue is not cooperating as I'm trying to be very clear on the pronunciation. I'm gonna try one more time. Let's see if I can get through it three times. Shouch vanga jupsa par. Choch vanga jugsa par sans We all need to continue to practice purification of the mind for clarity and focus. Myself included, clearly. You know, I'll just say, like, there's a time when I think that would have really I would be really embarrassed and I'd say to our editor, like, Cut that and get it perfect. And actually, like, let's leave it. It's not quite perfect. There's room for growth for us all. And if anything, maybe that's just a little bit of role modeling that you know, that we're all on a journey of and it does the perfection is not the goal, right? Practice is the goal. And let it be as it is. That's how it is today. So there's a literal translation of this verse. most frequently, and I'm gonna reference first Swami Satchidananda, who I think is a little conservative for my preference, but I think it's useful as a reference point. By purification arises disgust for one's own body and for contact with other bodies. And then I'm gonna read the Sanskrit words of 41. I'm I'm not even gonna try chanting it, it's a big mouthful. it's sattva should he. Saumanasya Ekkargya, Indriya, Jaya, Atma, Darsana, Yogatvanita. Just a quick notice that there's some words we've heard before. Sattva, which is one of the gunas, the states of material energy, which means purity, lightness, holiness, spiritual sort of character, goodness, ekka, ekagria, which is one-pointedness, ekka. In Sanskrit is one eka pada, like one foot, to describe like a lot of balance poses, right? Indriya, which is senses or sense awareness, like an internal, like you could call that interoception, is another one. So, like a lot of yoga practices talk about how you develop a sense of interoception, meaning the ability to discern the internal sensations of your own body. Jaya. Like like victory, like do you hear maybe people say jai? like jairam, like you know, is like if you're in India and you wanna like you know, it's like say hooray, you might say Jai Shri Ram, which is like glory, you know, victory to Ram. and then Atma, which is like the super soul, right? The the big capital S self. darshana, so drish is the root for to see. To have darshan is to take vision or to be seen. So like to like if you if you go to a Hindu temple for darshan, like or to have like a to have a to have an audience with a spiritual master is to have darshan, like to be seen and to see and be seen. so in this case, darshana is realization or victory, like to like the experience of sight. yogatvani, like yoga, there it is, right? The coming together, like. The readiness of that union. so the translation is moreover, one gains purity of sattva, cheerfulness of mind, one-pointedness, mastery over the senses, and fitness for self-realization. So the first I'll read these two again from Satidananda as our sort of like reference point, it's like a beginning. but purification arises disgust for one's own body and for contact with other bodies. Moreover, one gains purity of sattva, cheerfulness of mind, one-pointedness, mastery over the senses, and fitness for self-realization. And what we were talking about as we right before we started recording is just that most often shoucha in like a like in a 200 hour training program when you're just learning the yamas, niyamas, and the eight limbs of yoga is translated as cleanliness. And the way it's often communicated is like that The yogi is to sort of develop a sense of their own cleanliness. And certainly, as like an instructor, it's a very important principle because personal hygiene for yoga instructors is really important. Like it's a way of you know, I have a I have like a thing, like I very often shower right before I go teach a class, especially if it's in a heated studio. because like I want my body to be like, I want the energy of the day like off. I wanna know that like I am physically clean so that like if I'm assisting a student, I'm not like carrying around the day on me. And that's both like energetic and even physical. Like if you've ever taken a yoga class with a yoga teacher whose personal hygiene is not impeccable, it is kind of gross. And you do develop a distaste for it. Like it's a thing. If I I and and if and if you've ever been in a class with a really demanding teacher and if like they start to scare students a little bit, you can there's a like the sweat of anxiety smells different. I was once in a teacher training program with a teacher who was like, she was being really hard on us. And we were all really kind of like we we could we were really pressed. And you could like, and not to be gross, but like you could smell it. You could lit you could literally smell the anxiety in the room. Like I can tell when I'm going through a big emotional something and I go to class and like I can sometimes like it I smell different. I I I I I notice it. I really do. And that's like that's just physiology, right? That's cortisol, that's like all the stuff that your body's metabolizing because stress is a physiological experience as much as it is anything else. So there's this like literal interpretation of the verse that like the beginning of the personal practices is a practice of cleanliness, a cleanliness of the body, and of cleanliness, and that what arises is cleanliness of mind. And that like the that that gives space for a clarity of an ability to focus. And to be ready to receive yoga. And there's so much more. So right, Sarah Page and Sally, there's so much more. Is there a translation that, you know, as we were looking, because we always love to look at a bunch of different sources? Is there another translation that you found particularly interesting when taking a new fresh look at Shoucha? I liked TKV desikachar, hard on yoga. Part of yoga because I'll be honest with you, I I had trouble with this one. I'm like they're all saying sort of the same thing and it's just really not it's kinda hazy, it doesn't seem like any and so I like what he had to say. It's when cleanliness is developed, it reveals what needs to be constantly maintained and what is eternally clean. And I love this. What decays. Wait, can you pause and just repeat that again? That's really that's I didn't I haven't heard that one. That's that's really good. That's really interesting. I really love this book. I love this book and I love his interpretation. I I've read it. Now I now I need to reread it. Yeah, Heart of Yoga. It's a it's an oldie but a really good good one. When cleanliness is developed, it reveals what needs to be constantly maintained and what is eternally clean. And then this is interesting. What decays is What decays is the external. What does not is deep within us. So there again you have disgust and decay, all these two words, right, that are just we were talking about it before before class in the hall. We were talking about this. About like the there's sort of like anomanopias, disgust sounds like what it is. Decay sounds there's no way to make them sound pretty. And then he goes on with 241. Then he what the other thing he says, our overconcern with and attachment to outward things, which is both transient and superficial, is reduced when we, you know, are clean, when we do that. And then he goes on, in addition, one becomes able to reflect on the very deep nature of our individual selves, including source of perception without being distracted by the senses. And with freedom from misapprehension accumulated from the past. I want to repeat that. Without and with freedom from misapprehension accumulated from the past. Thinking about all of that stuff that has come on, much to what you were talking about, Seth, about cleaning yourself after a long day before you go in and bringing that energy into the Yoga Shala, we bring a lot of misapprehension and that is accumulated. Think about how much is accumulated from the past in your body. Anyway, so I just really loved and I'll be chewing on that for a little bit, I think. Yeah, Sally, is there another that's that's that's I had I yeah, I'm definitely gonna go reread that. Sally, what about you? I Yeah, I I what stuck out for you? I took so many notes on this one because I I was really struggling with that dislike or disgust word. I guess for The two translations I took from inside Patanjali's words from Raven Jagannath Carrera from for two forty, from purity, one's instinctive protective intelligence awakens. Infatuation with one's own body as well as sensual contact with others, that is incompatible with the goal of yoga is naturally avoided. So it's like, okay, I can I can work with that. It's so much more I think Rak Jagannath Carrera's in translation there is so much more gentle. Well, because he goes on in his commentary and he says the idea of disgust or dislike for the body, it seems out of place with Patanjali's message, which had been up to this point positive non-attachment is one thing, but disgust. And I was like, Yep, you have me. I'm really But it was interesting, while cleanliness and good grooming make sense and are appropriate, the idolization of cultural standards of beauty are not. We too often judge others and ourselves by physical standards of beauty. We too often judge others by physical characteristics, facial features, hair, lack of it, skin color, weight, wrinkles, on and on and on. And in dish in addition, we strive to erase the natural physical signs of aging. Not only is are they counter to standards of beauty, but they are reminders of our own mortality. The result is that we develop a superficial vision of who we are and others are. Through purification, we come to intimately know the nature of the body. We discover that we can it can never be completely free of toxins and waste products, but it's a valuable vehicle for this life. So I for me the disgust came more this connect this like obsession, which I know like I have and don't have day in in and day out. So I I kind of got to this the disgust we discover it not over the body but over our formal attitude toward it. I wanna take a moment in this for a second because it's I think there's really there's a really important topic. Again, this is like where we're getting a layer deeper here, right? Where I think all three of us, one is I think it's I think this is an interesting moment to sort of for those of you who might not be watching us, and if you haven't listened to us or read our bios on sutrasquad.com, which you should totally go do. website. Uh-huh. but no, I think it's important to just reference this. It's that and this isn't good or bad, but it's just a couple of facts about us and who we are. All three of us came to yoga a little bit later in life. Right? We are not 25. And there's nothing wrong with being 25, to be clear, right? Like I'm 47. I will let each of you disclose your biological age or not. But you're a 64. And it's fine. 64. It's fabulous. Looking great. Both of you, right? Yep. Feeling better than I have. I mean, don't take me to 25. Don't hey T. my God, I'm in so much better shape at forty seven than I was at twenty-five. For sure. And like that's just a that's just data, right? it's it's not determinative. It's just but it's but it informs our perspective. And and I think that Living in such a body beautiful culture in the West, in the United States of America, in the times that we all, you know, that we grew up, it's very easy to develop a sense of disgust with one's own body. I don't think I've had a day in my life. we've talked about this before, but I don't think truly that I've had a day in my life where I haven't been concerned with my weight. I do not have mirrors in my home. Except for the ones that were there, like, you know, the medicine cabinet or whatever. I do not look at myself in the mirror. I didn't really realize that until somebody said, Talula actually was like, Do you have do you have a full-length mirror? And I'm like, You can kind of see yourself in the reflection of that glass pit over there. But I don't have to that too. Yeah, you might have. You got a mirror? No, don't got a mirror. So I mean, and it really didn't come to me and I thought I don't look at myself. I don't want to look at myself. In the body. And it's, you know, and it goes back to, you know, you talk about a Simskara that's three years old, being basically put on a diet when I was nine and never been off of it. I mean, that's some deep and that's some deep cultural entrainment. So we have a you know, we have an entrainment that thin is better than fat. That and then when you get into how yoga has been, let's just be real for a second, because this is a super real topic. How yoga has been marketed and commercialized in the United States, which is in a specific looking body. And specific looking clothes. More often than not, female, and it's like size zero, maybe size two. let's not even talk about the whole whack-a-doodle women's clothing sizing. I mean, I I will just I will leave that. I will leave that for another day. Like the way women's clothes are sized and the and the numbers and the size numbers. And but men too, like men who practice are like shredded abs, like 2% body fat, and they're all doing handstands and they're all looking effortless. Or they're doing some, you know, complicated pretzel asana and like with this like serene-looking face. and that's wonderful for people who have developed those couple. Those siddhis, those those yogic powers. Sure. And everybody is a yoga body. Every I want to say that again because I I think it couldn't be more important to say and say and say. And I think it again, it really informs like how we come to this study and practice and how we instruct too. everybody is a yoga body. Period. you know, actually, the creator of our lineage, one of our shared lineage of practice, actually, I do love this saying of his, which is that everybody can practice Baptiste Power Yoga, and Baptiste Power Yoga isn't for everybody. Right? There's a way to adapt and modify the practice for every single body. And it's not for everybody. There's no one right practice in physical form for everybody. there for any number of reasons. And every single body can practice yoga and can practice asana. And and it and it it's really important to say that because there's this, again, like there, there's a surface-level understanding of this verse that you develop a disgust for your own body, as in like you, you sort of develop this distaste for like your own emanations and and the like for the for the Bile and excrement and and all the stuff that comes out of your body. But there's a like there's also this like very pernicious kind of internalized, really like self-hatred that arises, especially if you don't if you grow up outside of what it what it looks like is the right body, which again is like Not often an attainable body, not often a real body on most people. And like I will spare my TED Talk soapbox of like how and why that's commercially created and how like if Barbie, when she was created in the 60s, was actually like scaled up to an actual size of a human anatomically, she's impossible. Her spine would snap. from the weight of her oversized breasts and butt. Like like her, like it's in like your the f the physical form is like not just unrealistic, but it's like impossible. And there's this like and I will and like and then when you for me, like you grow up queer and like when I grew up, I came out in 1996. The only dip the only gay people you saw in public life were either like Shredded muscle men or AIDS patients. Like those are the only physical images of bodies that I could look to for a reference point of something that felt like my culture. And I was a chubby kid. And so I was never, you know, I I wasn't anywhere near as big as I probably projected myself to be, but it's certainly how I felt. And because I wasn't a sporto kid and I was, you know, like I've I've made a joke before about like my samscara for the word husky. because that's what's with the pants. There was like one pile of husky pants and when for little boys, you know, who were chubby. No, for the girls it was chubbies. For the girls it was chubbies. It was full on chubbies? It was chubbies. No. When you said huskies, I just had a flashback to the Sears and Jay-Z penny catalog. Yeah. We were chubbies. Husky at least sounds like you know, you're husky. Chubby, there's no way out. You're fat. There's no other way. that's so mean. That's so mean in Tallahassee at JCPenney. No, it was worldwide JC Penny catalog and Sears catalog, the wish book. Look, I mean, we all know like we have a cultural entrainment in the West of women who are supposed to be thin and men who are supposed to be fit. And there's a very specific prescribed image of that. And if I'm like really ruthlessly honest, like I've spent a lot of time in yoga studios. And part of that motivation is because like I want to look a certain way. And when I started, even when I first considered doing a teacher training, I had so much insecurity about like not having what I thought was a yoga body. Not just that I couldn't do a handstand. I still can't do a handstand, at least away from the wall. You're so close. But meh, I don't know, some days. But like I had so much insecurity about my physical appearance and like how I should or shouldn't look to be able to give asana instruction. I'll totally own that. And I really I really felt like I don't know if this is for me because like one of the narratives in my head was like, nobody wants to take class with a fat yoga teacher. That's a no, that's a very unhealthy disgust for one's own body. And it's really important to like presence that into the discernment of deeper understanding of what it really means to practice shoucha. It is not because like it's like the difference between dieting and eating healthfully and nourishing your body intentionally versus going on a diet. And and again, it's it's a I think it's a useful metaphor. Going on a diet is like punishment and it's about restriction and it's about like this outcome, it's very outcome focused. I wanna lose five pounds, fifty pounds, whatever it is. Which is wildly different than I just notice that like when I eat junk food, I've my body feels icky and lethargic and dark and heavy. And when I eat whole, real, delicious, nourishing food with higher nutrient density, maybe that I prepare myself or made by someone. with love and clear clarity and kindness and affection, I feel lightness and I feel goodness and I feel vitality and I and I feel clear. And this is what this sense of clarity is getting at. This is what shoucha is really getting at. I just really want to cause we're I really want to pre reference this because it's it's in the mix, very much in the mix. Desikar says, you know, when we He says to take outward things as the most valuable, the way we look, what we wear, to take those outward things to as the most valuable and to guard them at all costs, how much we weigh, is not to take the most important part of living. There is much more to look into. Dirty clothes, I love this. Dirty clothes may make a person look ugly, but they can be changed. If there's dirt deep inside, however, it cannot be changed so easily. And I love that he didn't say it can't be changed. He said it can't be changed so easily. There's always a redemptive, you know, moment, moment for redemption if you're willing. But it's deep inside. It's deep inside. And that's where the deep cleaning needs to come in. And it's sometimes it's painful. It's hard to look at it. It's hard to maybe face the thing that you you do eat junk food, or maybe you drink too much, or maybe you eat. foods that are not good for you and you know it, but you're so used to eating it or you know, I'm not a cook. I'm not a cook. Seth is a very good cook. And I'm sure Sally, you're a very good cook. I am not a good cook. I I thaw things out and I put them in the microwave. And so I am aware sometimes that I could do better. That I, you know, and I would probably feel better. I've always talked on this, you know, podcast very clearly about my road to recovery. You know, I did not feel good when I woke up, but I would intentionally put garbage in my body, poison basically in my body. So for me, it really was, you know, that's the outer, but I have to look deep inside. And that's when you go back to the all the other tools that we have, which is why. Yeah. What's that discernment, right? This is and this is like where that, you know, we talked about this concept of pratipaksha bhavanam. That when thoughts contrary to the Yamas and Niyamas arise, we are to turn our attention away from them and toward these principles. And that this practice of discernment, this and that, which is not judgment, it is discernment. And that's, I think, really important to like connect in here that like this the sense of disgust is not like if you've ever, if you, dear listener, if you've ever dieted from a place of disgust with your own body. It's actually like a really dark mental process, right? Cause you like, like I have a hundred percent gone through phases of diet and exercise from a place of that disgust. And it's really, it's it's not healthy. It's not healthy because it's like as if somehow I am unworthy of something, if I am in a physical form that is somehow not aligned to a culturally entrained beauty standard. I'm like, that's actually like a very pernicious form of suffering. It's himsick. It's very hemp. It's very harmful. It's very harmful. But if you've ever also done like deep detox protocols, like I worked as a n a nutritionist if I don't know, six-ish years ago and seven years ago, and we did some wild detox stuff, like crazy. We did this liver cleanse, and I don't want to talk about what came out of my body. I mean, I can't believe it was in there. I'm like, where did that come from? my goodness. but there's so now there's a disgust of that. But like part of this, like it's like when you it's like when you make a clean spot on a table. Like you can't, like you gotta keep cleaning. And there's a sense then of like you, you notice the difference. And then you're like, my God, I didn't know I could feel this, like amazing. like a couple days after all that detoxification. Where it's like if you like if you want to do something really wild, cut out sugar. Like I'm not saying by the way, I'm not giving health advice. I just want to be really clear, child of an attorney. I'm not giving health advice. And like just as an expert like like as an experiment, like cut out sugar radically for like a week or even a month, if you can take it. Or if you can do it, it's really hard. You have to get like super, like, and I mean like ever as much as possible. Fruit, even fruit, even naturally carrying like as much sugar as you can try to cut out for a week, even just a week. And then the next time you eat a piece of fruit, you will be like, whoa, this is so sweet. And then if you go have a real like Coca-Cola, you'll like, it's it's like almost unpalatable. Because you taste the chemical super sweetness of it. And it's sort of like that. It's like you don't really want it anymore. Because like this is the second verse that like you develop this sense of clarity. Right, that sattva becomes so much more prominent. And again, you discern the difference. Can I share something? it was on the commentary of I now I'm shoucha. Ish from the Yamas and the Niyamas from Deborah Adele. And I loved she. I just was thinking in my life, and then I read this and I was like, weird. This is what's happening at my house right now. It's that cleanliness is a process of scrubbing the outside of us. It changes our outer appearance. Purification works on the inside and changes your very essence. Although cleanliness is important, shoucha calls us to the inward journey of purification, not the external appearance of cleanliness. Purity is not our attempt to make something different than it is, rather it is to be pure in our relationship with it, as it is in the moment. As we begin to lose the heaviness of waste and clutter, we begin to feel lighter and more spacious and expansive. Our bodies become more alive, our minds become more clear, and our hearts become more compassionate. And I thought about that. Like last weekend I spent a day cleaning out my one car garage, you know, but with lots of little kids in it. And there was lots of just sweeping and getting rid of, you know, what's no longer needed and sweeping the dust away so I can really see what is. What is what, you know. And the place does feel lighter and appears cleaner. But then I realized there's more to move from clarity to To purity. And the purification, I thought once again, I'm just going to bring this sweet little Hank, the one and a half year old grandson I have. And I often, when I rock him to sleep, which is we're in transition. That's not going to probably be happening that much anymore. But I wonder what he thinks when he looks at me. Like sometimes I've showered and sometimes I haven't. And sometimes my hair's a mess, and sometimes I have a little mascara on, and sometimes I don't. And I get the feeling that he doesn't care. I don't feel any preference from him based on what I look like in that moment. And it's just it is almost I feel like I'm an extension of him when we're just, you know, kind of chest to chest rocking in this chair. And every time I'm just reminded, like, this is purity. We naturally love and feel and support and are connected to each other. But I just was like, in this weekend of going from cleaning my garage to rocking him to sleep, I was like, this is the journey from cleanliness through clarity to purity. I love that. That's beautiful. Because how many times, honestly, do we It's interesting. I'm thinking about expectations and the expectations that we put upon ourselves and, you know, what it is that we expect of ourselves. And that gets in the way, I think, of a deep cleanse, right? It does because we expect ourselves to do this, this, this, and this, look a certain way, eat a certain way, behave a certain way, have a certain job, have a certain car, have a certain whatever. But those who truly love us, like I know for a fact my daughter could care less. As I've said before, my daughter has Down syndrome. One time I said to her, Ben, it was more for me than her. And one of the the few things that I did really well in raising her was I would not let people speak about weight because I had been so traumatized by that. And I was very clear. And it was a boundary not to be cost. And nobody did. Consequently, my daughter has such a healthy self-image that I'm always like amazed by it because I did not grow up with it. And one time I said to her, I said, you know, Elizabeth, maybe we should go on a diet. And she said, why? I'm beautiful. And you know, I was like, Where why don't I do that for myself? Why can't and she will say that What a brut let's just like pause in that moment like that. She just clapped right back. Why? I'm beautiful. I don't need anything, Mama. I'm good. Good. I mean, that's an amazing thing you did right there, Sarah Bay. Yeah, I just was like, I I know. I was like, okay, well, my work here is done. And it was but that she and she also I modeled it for her I sh I never spoke about it in front of her how I felt. I made clear that we were perfect, however we were was perfect. And it was like, can you just there's a quote in Deborah Odell's book that I really love and I underlined it probably eight years ago. Or in the words of Anthony De Mello, can you leave yourself alone? Can you leave yourself alone? Right? How Often do we place expectations, outrageous you know, expectations on ourselves, on the way that we're supposed to look. We were talking in pre-class about how how what was it, 79, 76, I don't know when it was, but the or 80, the movie 10. And that just and it's still popular. You will still hear people say, she's a 10. Well, and it's another like how do we because I want like, you know, I have a I think I've shared in this podcast before, Cooper, the almost three year old grandchild, she was completely disheveled. And I was like, Well, what'd you think? when he looked in the mirror and she said, Well, I'm beautiful because I like myself. This is coming from a three year old. Then I have a gorgeous six year old, almost seven year old grandson. And the other day we were walking and I can't believe I'm gonna say this on this, but I am. We were walking and I have a gorgeous aunt. Auntie Armin. I think she might be 83, but she looks unbelievable. She looks really young. But it was so weird because Bodhi and I've recently let my hair go gray. Auntie Armin's hair is brown. So I don't know. I didn't ask for any details. We were walking down the street and Bodhi said, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I just want to share my opinion. And inside I thought, Sensei Bodie. And he said, so I'm 64 and I think she's 83 or 84. I'm not sure. And he said, I think you and Auntie Armin should trade ages because you look more her age. And she looks more your age. Now, this is the eyes of a six-year-old. I really don't know what he means. He's never said anything about my gray hair. I don't I decided not to dig deeper for what but I I but it has made me think what at what age or when do we pick this kind of information up? Because it's clearly pretty sure it's not in the one and a half year old right now. Now he doesn't have a ton of language. So I mean maybe when he starts talking mirror, mirror on the wall. Who's the fairest of them all? It's crazy, but then But I'm also yes, it's thrown at us all the time throughout life. It shows up in so many pernicious small ways. But how do we create these practices so that we can pause, see it? Set create a little distance and not take it on. I want us to look at what's going what's happened here. As is often the case in this podcast, it's gone in this very, very like wind tunnel-y vortex. And it's crazy to me because when we first started doing this six years ago, we weren't going towards body love. you know, purity as an internal way of thinking. It's keep clean. Go wash your hands. Make sure you wash your hands. Make sure you you, you know, it is so much less. Put on deodorant before you teach. Put on, you know, make sure you have a pedicure. Yeah. Yeah. Lay them out. Don't don't you I I want to make sure we get to there's another dimension of this. So I'm sorry, Sarah. No, I'm just saying, but I'm just saying that's the beauty of these sutra j of the sutras as a whole. But it's sort of like you and we've said this before. When you have a conversation with somebody and it they're they're like, I want to talk, I've got see something's wrong. And I'm like, Okay, what's wrong? And it's there's this one thing, but the one thing is never the thing. Cause there's something way underneath, and that's the way I see this whole text is there's the one thing of looking at it, but it's that's never the thing. That gets you started. But there's all of this really good stuff underneath. Yep. But and and so to this exact point, there's another dimension in this I just wanna make sure we touch on too, because I think there's a the another dimension is like cleanliness and then the purity arises arising from you know we food is a really is this is this an analogy, by the way, but it's an analogy that's useful because like everybody gotta eat. and I did grow up in a in a Jewish line, you know, home. And so like I'm a Jewish mother, so like I want to feed you. But then there's the other dimension, which is like if you think about how else do you feed yourself, which is like what Content do you ingest? And what is the company that you keep? we don't have enough time. So we don't have enough time, but I think it's but it's really important to because this I think are also really, really, really important practices of show cha that I wanna just invite people to really start to get curious around. So like content. Like, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm really like and I'm not saying that this is the right decision for everyone. But like I personally spend the absolute least amount of time possible on social media as I possibly can. I just now granted there's like a whole other I have like a thing around it and like it's not good for some of the business stuff I'm trying to do and I have to figure out how to square this circle. But I do not find the content on most of those platforms very nourishing. And I have tried very hard to cultivate my feed. And to follow intentionally and to tap and like intentionally because I want the algorithm. I'm trying to train the algorithm more than I'm allowing the algorithm to train me. And I know more than the average bear. I have a long career in the technology industry. I've seen these platforms from their inception and inside some of these companies. If you'd like to hear about my resume, you can look me up on LinkedIn. And and you can decide for yourself if that rings if if I have the right to say this or not. I think I do, so I'm gonna go for it. I am very well aware that these algorithms are entraining us in a very pernicious way. And so I don't want to be entrained. And so I try not to give my attention for its monetization by meta as much as is possible. And even when I do, I try to ingest intentionally. So like and not to knock not to yuck anybody's yum But I am going to use a specific example, which is like reality television, which is not real. Like this is the question. Like, if you think about the content you ingest on social media and on like streaming or whatever linear programming you watch, you your time and attention are precious commodities that are limited. Where do you direct them? And do they reflect your values? And I'm sorry, I'm going to use one example because I think it's Instructive. Like I never have I ever watched an episode of The Kardashians or or or The Real Housewives of Anywhere. And that's a real intentional choice. Because I like, and I'm not saying that there's no value or that they're not good people or I'm making no judgment about the individuals who take place. What I am saying is that when I the little bit of that content that I've seen, I don't see those housewives lifting each other up. I don't see them. using their massive, massive amounts of wealth and resources to do good works in the world, to help people, to make people feel better about themselves or to in some way be of service. I see them tearing each other down. I see them deeply invested in material life and concerns. And like nothing I have seen in those, even the little bit of the content that I've watched and maybe, you know, come for me or comment. I don't know. I mean at least you're listening. But like, would you want your child to grow up and behave like any of these people in any of these circumstances? In most of these circumstances? At least I don't think I would. And and like this is, you know, I sort of I make fun of Sarah Page for listening to murder podcasts, and I'm only saying that because you've talked about it. I was just gonna bring it up. But like but like it it is a real thing to think about. Like, what are you taking in? And what is its effect on you? I don't listen to them. And what do you choose to talk about when you I mean, I'm not telling you what's right or wrong, right? Right. Like I really am not. I'm just I've what I've said to you before and I stand by is that it's very Tamasic. I think as in like it's a Thomas energy. Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. And like I know the and I say that because like I know the best of you. And I want you to like choose something for the best of you. And the same goes for who you spend time with. Like in content and then in real life. Like, what is your Sangha? Where do you find like what is your community? And it can be very hard. We feel so disconnected from each other. I think that's like why we why all of us have turned to these practices in many ways, too. I think it started with a disgust in the body in a lot of contexts, isn't like, I want to get fit. But then you start to also realize like yogis, real yogis, like I always say yogis don't talk about the weather. Like you don't end up wanting to talk about like sort of small talk. It feels small. And it's sort of just like unnecessary. It's like, who cares? I don't care about the housewives. I don't care about the Kardashians. Like I literally I just don't, I just don't choose to give them any of my time or attention. It's of it's of no consequence to me. And yes, of course, every once in a while something arises in pop culture and you sort of spend a moment and say, okay, I want to know the reference. And I'll like learn enough to know what somebody's talking about just because like, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a person of the world too. Like I'm not trying to be all holier than thou about it. I'm really not. Right. I have my own vices, like we all do. But I also love like that's a show about art like artistry. And like, yeah, there's drama and there's human so it has human stuff that happen around it. But like it's really mostly about who's actually the most incredible artist. And like, yeah, you could have a whole thing about the competition of art and like and maybe that's true. And I don't mean to be so d dismissive of that perspective either. I shouldn't be. but I do think the values that it espouses are different. And I've noticed, like, I'm sure you guys have noticed this too. Like, I don't spend time with some of the people who I used to spend time with. Cause the more I've gotten into these practices, the more I realize, like, well, what do we do? Like, I have there's all friends who I used to be friends with, and like, I realized like how much of the activity was centered around alcohol. And the answers a lot. And you know, there's also who do we spend time with in our studios, in our shalas? I often say that the yoga studio is not a hotbed of mental health. We're all there for a reason. I mean, we come back over and over and over, you know, and it's there's something there. And it's it's and I and I really want to say it's okay. Not everybody has to be your person, even in a yoga studio. Not everybody has to be your person. And and that is okay. It's how you respond to it. For me personally, what I'll you know, and I've spoken about this, I think, on here is I will say things like, you know, somebody will come in and I instinctively know and energetically know that this is not my person. And though that, you know, not anymore, but this was a while ago. I would be like, No, no, no, no, no, the yoga will fix it and all of that kind of stuff. People don't need to be fixed. People don't need to be fixed, people. And it's not my job to do it. And it's yeah, not me. Not me. And and so I mean that was a interesting and pain and but it's like the Ajana chakra, right? The Ajana chakra is your eye of intuition and inner knowing. You know everything you need to know. It's are you listening to it? Are you willing to go deep and uncomfortable and possibly like you were talking about Seth, end friendships. Kindly or not. I mean, it's up to you. But set that back. Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah, we don't want any bloodshed. In the most not mistake. We want to practice ahimsa. No, we want to practice ahimsa. A hundred percent. We don't want that to be harmful to the other person. And we but we have to be true to ourselves first. And we have to watch the ego getting involved or not involved. You know, it's and that's it's and this is where these tools come in and we sit with it and we don't For me personally, I'll speak from myself, is that I don't rush into things when I know that a friendship has probably run its course for very good reasons and reasons that I don't really need to discuss. It's just run its course. And I've often said, I wish that we could normalize the word outgrow. There's nothing wrong with outgrowing somebody. And outgrowing some it means that you've grown. It means that you've grown. And it's not saying that they're maybe they've outgrown you too. You know, but being around people who are him sick and you know it, you don't have to save them, you don't have to fix them step back. Right. In my case, it was like that it was a lot of alcohol. And then I also noticed like, what did we talk about? Like, were we lighting each other up? Were we lifting each other up? And the answer was I didn't feel that way. I didn't feel lifted up. I didn't feel lit up. Sometimes I felt torn down a little bit. And that again, like the you know, you mentioned the anjana chakra. Like when when the when we purify the body. That clarity of perception arises. Right. When we when we purify our mind by intentionally taking in nourishing content and cultivating nourishing relationships, we we develop that clarity of perception. That pratipati that pratipati bhavana comes so much more clearly. And then it's not like And it doesn't then it's just sort of like, yeah, like that's just not for me anymore. Might have been one time. Thank you for your your help and helping me to grow and to become whatever. And thank you. Yeah. And well, and I have to say, Carrera has a great couple sentences exactly what you were talking about. When the body and mind go up. Yeah. When the body And mind are well purified, there arises a natural reluctance to engage in physical relations that are devoid of care and love or that can hurt another. As the nature of a pure mind arises, it becomes increasingly easy to to spot inauthenticity. This keeps us away from toxic relationships. So it's like nothing about people are good or bad or whatever. It's just trusting your gut. You know, when your gut is clear and healthy and thriving, you trust it. And then we don't hurt each other. You know, so often I think when we're dirty and unclear, we hurt each other. You know, we take the the outgrowing of people or the the moment in life that the rela you know, relationships sometimes come and go too. So there's I feel like in purity and cleanliness and clarity, there's room. For a relationship to go, and maybe it'll come back. There's no ill feelings, there's f freedom and space. You know, it's like what Maya Angelo said. Once people show you who they are, believe them. Yeah. And be grateful for the clarity of perception. And like if they're no longer your people, then be grateful for the clarity that you can see that. And there's no need to like tell somebody something. They don't, you know, you ain't their mama. You don't you don't hear to tell them nothing. Well, on the other side, would it be like also like look at yourself? Like, where are you in your journey of clarity and purity? Because maybe this person is actually a mirror. And what you're seeing is yourself. And there just needs to be a little bit of gentle, kind. Detoxification within so you can see more clearly. Yeah. This is the perfect place to sort of to bring it to to bring it to to wrap it up. So every week we offer some inquiry for continued reflection. And you could think about this as a journaling prompt. You could just take this as like a little yum yum yum yum bone to chew this for yourself during the week. you know, in whatever way that it's useful. But but Sally, like what's some what's some inquiry that this conversation has inspired? for you. So I think I'm going with just can you see any blockages to cleanliness, clarity, and purity in your own life? And are there any outdated habits or rooms, you know, space to kind of let go of how it was and choose what's right here and now? What practice could you begin to cleanse and purify your mind, your body, and your spirit? Sarah Paige, some inquiry from you for this week inspired by our practice of show cha. How much time do we have? I for me personally podcast as much as we want. I know the danger. I know that is the danger. No, honestly I'm just thinking about this whole business of outgrowing. Where are you sitting in something that you know is toxic, that you know is a stew of just not good for ya? And you don't think that you can come out where is that? And then I'm gonna ask you to get real clear on sit down, hopefully journal. Or do whatever you need to do to go, what are the next steps? What are the steps towards purification? What are the steps towards getting rid of and not the person? It's getting you into a space of purification. Calls are coming from inside the house. Always. Yep. So I'm gonna yes and that inquiry because what I'll say too is like I like look like every single one of us. I mean, again, like how long you got? We all do things that we know are not Our most helpful, right? Like we all have our vices, but they also they give you something. You get something from them. And so maybe take a moment and like just just again, this is just for you. And there's this truly like no, like this isn't, I I I don't, I I I don't hope, I hope this doesn't inspire a sense of judgment as much as it inspires some just curiosity and discernment, which is like, what is the vice and what do you get from it? And like what is it, like what is it doing for you? It's doing something. And I think that's helpful to start to see then, like, is there something better? Like again, like, you know, where could you in introduce some some lovingly intended, very gentle and compassionate pratipaksha bhavanam to say, like, okay, this not that. I say I want to be up to this. I'm doing that. What I get from it is Perceived sense of control, a familiarity, a comfort, a whatever. And then let like that inform, then like again, it doesn't have to be so all or nothing either. In fact, maybe like give yourself the space for it not to be all or nothing. And just think that, like, maybe a little less. Right? Like that the purification is not like is a it's an incomplete project. You're never gonna fully detoxify your body. There's an amount of toxin that your body needs, actually, unfortunately. Like you can't you can't remove all the like bacteria from your gut because like it wouldn't function properly. You need some. So there's some amount of foreign substance in there that like is made it's supposed to be there. I mean, unless maybe you're the Buddha or Master Patanjali himself or Vyasadev, who supposedly composed all the Vedanta, but like I Otherwise, those of the rest of us who are not divine manifestations or direct divine manifestations probably are gonna have some, you know, stuff to purify. okay. And then we also we offer a teaching tip, because all three of us offer asana classes. We know many of you do too. And so, you know, what's what's something, Sally? Like, how could you bring the practice of shoucha into a studio into like an asana environment to give students like an embodied experience of it. Well, I'm just gonna actually use a yogic practice of ujae breath, a breath, you know. And so I'm just gonna invite throughout the physical practice purity through the breath, like ujae and really allow feel experience like the depth of cleansing that you can get through flowing your breath intentionally one breath at a time. Yeah. So good. I love breath. So good. It's I mean, it's I love breath. It's so pu it there's a purity to that. It's like just the breath. Like that's it. That's all you need. Just to just that's all you need. I'm gonna take it a little bit further. And I'm gonna offer up it's one of my favorite practices to teach. going into that midline into the solarplex is the manapura chakra. The element for manapura is fire. Fire is purification, akni. Is purification. Do a really deep ringing out, using, you know, in our lineage it's the igniting sequence, but like get really deep in yeah, stuff going in there. Don't be afraid to call, you know, f for us like, you know, twisted crescent lunge, chair, but also side crow and get into some of those like really bend your students, bend your students and ring out. That sounded wrong. Sam, you may want to talk about that. When are you teaching that? Bring it out and bend them over and ring out. Anyway, so yeah, I love doing that. No, but like offer that. Yeah. I mean, like, twists are deeply purified. Two twists are deeply purified. The fire element says. Fire element. Acne. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So teach a twisty class. Yeah. Yeah. That's inter that's a that's a great one. I think I'll offer a little different one too, which is like just just like Notice how you arrange your mat. Notice how you invite students to arrange their mats. Like, you know, some students like just sort of throw their stuff around, throw their props around, and some like put them intentionally. Like, you know, like vinyasa means to place in order. And so that there's a practice of shoucha. So, like, notice as an instructor, like the cleanliness of your vinyasa. Like, can't like can you simplify and purify? The sequence, so that like again, like if you're gonna teach something, like is it just every, is everything intentional? Like, can you clean up the intention of what you're teaching? And you notice where you're just like saying the same cue because it's just the thing you say, versus like I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna look and and I'm gonna offer something specific. I will say, even great teachers do it. Like, I notice a really amazing master instructor. But then I noticed she was giving the same cues. And I was like, I wonder is that does she see the same thing? Or is that just the way she's figured out how to get it? Like, I wonder what that is. Like I'm not criticizing her per se. I'm just, I just noticed it. Cause she was visiting and I took her class a bunch and I was like, huh. Every single one of us has habits that we fall into. So just like, notice that. Like notice like, and and there's a really like again, it's fun. Like, Maybe even offer a specific setup of blocks and water placement and towel placement and like show students like one way they could and like actually have the room set that way or set it yourself that way. Or have students say, like, take your two blocks, put them on the tallest setting right in front of the mat in this orientation, put your water bottle here to the like here and put your towel here. And notice how it feels to have the studio sort of orderly this way. And notice how the practice is gonna feel when we do that together. Have them remove phones. Get rid of the phones. forget it. That's a c that's a great cleanliness. The phones. Watches two people. Watches two. We know what you're doing. I see you. I give it to you, Jim. I I give the announcement every time. I give the announcement every time and I say, I'm gonna ask you once. And if I ask you again, I'll it will be asking you to leave. I have to be so you gotta like have such a hard line on it. Cause every time I don't, like somebody Like, we'll look again. But you do like that's a that's a training practice, I think, for students. what I was just gonna say though about that before we said watches, phones, I I I dated a guy who his teacher, who apparently was also very rigorous, was so particular about the way the room was set, and about the way the room was set and the way students were set, that if every she would not enter the studio. Until every student was silent in Sukasana. She would literally like not enter the room. That's a whole nother podcast. I understand. I was gonna say I got thoughts on that. I got thoughts on that. I mean, I like I wasn't there. I don't know. I've never taken this person's class. So I really don't know, right? But like you could argue, like as a teacher, she's she's setting a standard of like cleanliness of energy for the pro for her instruction. And I don't know that was so weird. But like that was her practice. It was you she would not enter the room until every single student was seated in Sukasana silent. How did she know? I think she stood outside and waited. there's windows. I don't know. She could she could hear. Okay, let's land this at her place. You can know. I you can hear when people remember. I don't know. I'm not I that's not me. I kind of love walking into a racket studio. Like it's like energy. I love that. but you know. fascinating, right? What's fascinating is that these practices continue like we continue to find new depth and understanding and meaning together. And like the and this this is I think a deeply purifying practice for us because it really our goal is to really purify our understanding and to clarify our understanding and to do so in community with each other and hopefully in a way that is of of use to you, dear listener. So if you found any benefit from our words and from our time together Please like, subscribe, share, leave a comment, give a review or a rating. It helps other people find us. And for now, for this moment, we'll just say you have our deepest, deepest gratitude for your time and attention. And I will say thank you, Sally. Thank you. Thank you so much. Love you. Thank you, Sarah Page. Thank you both so much. Love you both so much. And thank you to you out there. We'll be with you again in another episode of the Sutra Squad soon. Bye-bye for now.