Latest / The Fourcast / Sarah Vine: How Brexit ruined my marriage to Michael Gove

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Sarah Vine: How Brexit ruined my marriage to Michael Gove · The Fourcast

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I I've never met a single politician who goes into
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parliament intending to become sort of mad and toxic.
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They all go in with really good intentions, but you might as
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well be walking into Chernobyl. It's, you know, you cannot
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escape the radiation. It is just very toxic.
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Were you a bit seduced by? Yes.
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The Court of the Camerons. Say, glamorous and fabulous.
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Yes, I mean, Dave was like a sort of James Bond figure.
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I used to look at people like Samantha and wished one of them
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would be my friends. And then when one of them was my
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friends, I was just really excited.
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And desperate not to lose it. Of course.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hello and welcome to the
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Forecast. Does politics make good people
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awful, or does it attract awful people?
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It certainly wrecks lives, if Sarah Vines experience has
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anything to go by. The Daily Mail columnist, who
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laughs at herself as one of the Wednesday witches of Fleet
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Street, has written a jaw-dropping book called How Not
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to Be a Political Wife. It is a funny, sad and self
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critical but also delightfully gossipy memoir of two
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devastating relationship breakdowns, her marriage to Tory
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cabinet minister and Brexiteer Michael Gove, and what she
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thought was her close friendship with David and Samantha Cameron.
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And it's an intriguing portrait not just of that period before
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and after the Brexit referendum, but of the psychodrama around
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the people in politics that politicians always deny.
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Some reviewers have said it's brilliant and they feel enormous
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sympathy for her. Others say it's embarrassing
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from the thinking man's Meghan Markle.
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Either way, it's got people talking.
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Sarah, welcome. Thank you for having me.
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So that that question that I, I felt reading it, you know, does
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politics turn good people bad? I think it tests them to the
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limits is what I would say. It's very, very, very toxic.
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Politics is just a very toxic world.
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I mean, you make it sound absolutely ghastly.
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It is. It is.
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I mean, I, I haven't. That's not even the half of it.
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I mean, I've taken, I've kept stuff out, you know, I mean,
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you've no idea how unpleasant it, well, because, you know,
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it's too bad. But no, it is just really toxic
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and it's designed that way. It's, it's, it's, you know,
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that's, it's the, the, the way the whole of Westminster is set
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up. It's, it's almost impossible to
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be anything else. So people, politicians, all
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politicians. I, I've never met a single
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politician who goes into Parliament intending to become
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sort of mad and toxic. They all go in with really good
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intentions. But it is, it is, you know, you
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might as well be walking into Chernobyl.
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It's, you know, you cannot escape the radiation from, from,
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from politics. It is just very toxic.
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Because you, I mean, you didn't marry a politician, you married
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a journalist. No, I married a journalist.
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We were both journalists when we got married, Yes.
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So so did you. Did you think he he was a
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political journalist? Obviously, yes.
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And he always was interested in politics, yes.
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Did you? Did you think you knew what you
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were getting into? I did and I realised now I had
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absolutely no idea and that I was an absolute idiot and and
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very naive and also probably quite arrogant thinking that I
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could handle it. Do you know what I mean?
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Thinking I would be OK, it would be different for me.
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But I always say it's like childbirth, You know, you read
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all the books, you listen to the podcasts, you look at the Mummy
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influences and then but no one can actually tell you what it's
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like to push a baby out of your vagina.
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And I think I think politics is a simpler experience.
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You can read about it, you can think you know what it is, but
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until you actually do it, you don't realise quite how painful
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it is. And, and do you think it turns?
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I mean, we it's toxic and it, you know, but does it turn?
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Does it change people? No.
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I mean not obviously you know, some people yes, some people no,
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but I think increasingly it attracts the sort of people who
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can cope with it. So I think what it does is it's
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it's a sort of self selecting environment in the sense that if
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you are a really good kind of person with genuine motives,
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who's a bit soft and a bit sort of maybe not perfect, but but
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really well meaning, you're not going to survive.
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You're not going to get anywhere because it's just you're just
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going to get eaten alive. Well, because you'll just get
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sort of railroaded or you know, you'll, you'll do something
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completely harmless, but sort of, you know, that annoys all
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the wrong, it's just very difficult.
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So what you do is you what you end up is you get tough.
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You need to be quite a tough person to survive in it and to
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thrive in it. And you know, particularly
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Michael, you know, my ex-husband, he wasn't that kind
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of person really. He wasn't, he didn't have the
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sort of kind of moves, if you know what I mean.
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He wasn't one of those people who just kind of sailed through
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life. He, you know, he had to kind of
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work for it. And I think that it was a bad
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environment for him, didn't suit his personality very well.
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The headlines have really been about your bust up with Samantha
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Cameron. Yes, and various things that
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happened with David Cameron. Yeah, For me, it was about so,
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so in the same to me that Michael wasn't in politics when
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I married him. You know, the Camerons weren't
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really in politics when we got to know, when I got to know
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them. So we all, we all went on that
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journey together. Yeah, you were in On the ground
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4 exactly of the Cameron project.
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Is that why you thought you were safe?
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Yes, fool that I am, yes, absolutely.
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Because. But, but, but what I hadn't
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understood was that, you know, power changes you and it changes
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it, it, it, it doesn't, you know, it changes the people
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around you and they and they become the gatekeepers.
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So. So you know, whereas before you.
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Yeah. Like if I was your mate, I'd
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just ring you up and say, would you like to have a drink?
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But if you suddenly became Prime Minister, I wouldn't be able to
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do that anymore. I'd have to ring up an aide and
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say hello, can I please have a drink with my.
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Do you know what I mean? So their, their barriers become
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erected and they, you know, they're there for good reasons.
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But it, if you look at it from the other side, it's also why I
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think politicians sometimes, often, particularly when they're
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very much on top of the tree, end up losing, losing contact
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with reality because there are so many people in the way of,
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you know, the old friends, the, the friends who will say to
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them, you're being an idiot or that's a silly thing to do.
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Or, you know, you shouldn't wear that shade of lipstick or
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whatever it is that you're, you know, thinking about.
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So yes, so I think you know that.
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So, so the book is a sort of it is, it is that journey, if you
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like, from from normality to sort of insanity via politics.
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Did you? Do you think you were ever
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really friends? Yes, definitely, definitely.
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I think I was, yes. I mean, I could be deluded, but
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I do think I was, yes. So.
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So at what point did it turn? I think it was around sort of
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2000 and well, it was after Michael got fired from
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education, really. I don't know if you remember
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that. Yes, when David Cameron demoted
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him because he'd become too controversial.
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Yes, so exactly. So him and Dominic Cummings were
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working together at the Department of Education.
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They had a very quite a sort of punchy reforming agenda, which
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was what Dave wanted. They were pressing ahead with it
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but it was polling, it was causing some problems and it was
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decided that he needed to be sidelined in the run up to the
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election and and and it all got very messy and.
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Was it a complete surprise? Kind kind of.
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I mean, it was to me. It might not have been to
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Michael. You'd have to ask him that.
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Because you thought you were close friends and that he
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wouldn't. Well, I just thought someone
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might have a conversation with me about it.
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You know, I thought someone might say to me, by the way,
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we're a bit worried about this, blah, blah, blah.
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But they didn't. It just was, you know, Michael
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came home one day and said I'm being transferred, so.
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So he was treated like any other.
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So there had been conversations that there had been
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conversations about, you know, jokey conversations about
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whether or not Michael would make a good chief whip, but they
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were sort of jokey conversations.
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They weren't, I didn't, they didn't seem to be serious proper
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conversations. They were kind of postprandial
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conversations. So but or maybe you know, I
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mean, I just, I just felt that was, I think, I think if you
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say, if you say it as, you know, if you get somebody to expend
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their personal and political capital on doing something that
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you've asked them to do and that you've agreed to do, it's not
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very good to then just, you know, cut them loose.
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So you were furious? It's quite cross, yes.
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I mean, I was cross on Michael's behalf really, because she'd
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been working very hard. And, you know, it's, it was, it
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was kind of, and also it was, it was his passion.
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Education really was what he wanted to.
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I always remember him saying, you know, if I'm never anything
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other than a really good education secretary, that's
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perfect. You know, this is a great thing.
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It's a very important role. You know, securing people's
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education is, is key, right? Because it's like the next
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generation. So if you can get that right,
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then you can get the country right.
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Ultimately, it's the future and. Do you think you should have
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turned it down? What education?
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The demotion? Well, he did.
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He did, he said. So Dave said, Dave said to him,
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I'd like you to be my chief whip.
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And Michael came home and said Dave wants me to chief, wants me
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to be chief for what do you think?
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And I said, well, I mean, I don't know.
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I mean, I'm sure you'd be very good at it.
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And he sort of and said, OK. And then I think he thought
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about it and I think he probably had a conversation with Dom
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Cummings about it as well. And then he said no.
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And then Dave got very angry with him because you.
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Know what happened? They there was a, there was a,
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there was a spicy exchange, exchange of text messages.
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I think we can, we can say eventually they agreed that
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Michael would do this and then it would be done in a, in a
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certain way and it wasn't done nicely.
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It was done very brutally actually.
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And he was sort of humiliated actually.
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And I thought that was Paul. And so so was that the beginning
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of. Well, it was sort of the
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beginning, I think of, I think, I think everything was fine
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provided I didn't get, I didn't stand up for myself or for
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Michael, provided I was sort of smoothing everything over.
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Do you know what I mean? I'm quite an emollient person in
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my, with my, I try to keep people happy.
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I'm a bit of a people pleaser. And then I got cross about about
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it. And then I think that was
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unexpected because that wasn't how I'd behaved up until then.
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So I suppose it was probably my fault for suddenly changing
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where I was, but I was cross about it and I did.
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I think it was, oh, it was in the Daily Mail.
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Max Hastings wrote a piece and the headline was A Shabby's
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Day's work that David Cameron would live to regret words to
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that effect. And I retouched it and then that
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was and then I was in a lot of trouble for that.
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Yes. Who add Sarah, I would just, you
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know, with obviously with the Camerons.
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And with Michael as well. Michael, I think, yes, Michael
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was quite, quite actually crossed with me because I think
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he felt that, you know, that was just making things worse.
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So, So what what did that say about his loyalties?
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I mean, where, where were his loyalties?
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And at what point do you think politics became the most?
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Important thing in his life, I think.
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I think when, funnily enough, I think it was when things started
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to get hard and started to get difficult because I think the
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problem with politics is it's a bit like being a gambler.
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You know, you go into the casino and you win a few rounds and you
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think, oh, this is good. I'm on a bit of a winning
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streak. And then you lose and then you
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think, oh, I better keep playing because I need to win.
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I need to win back the money that I've lost.
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And then you end up sort of going going back and going back
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and going back. You just need that.
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You just want the win. And I think that that became,
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you know, Michael became wanted to wanted to fix the mistakes
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that had been made, you know, and and that became a a big
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preoccupation, I think. And that's why he kept going
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back. And that's why he kept going.
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Even to Theresa May, when she. Even to Theresa May, after she
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had been very mean to him and told him to go away.
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And I mean, she did treat him like a naughty schoolboy.
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I think she treated everyone like a naughty schoolboy.
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But she, you know, she was quite harsh on him and, and he sort of
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left and then, and then the second she sort of, you know,
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the second politics showed a bit of ankle metaphorically, if you
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know what I mean. He was straight back in there.
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And I, I, I found that difficult because I just kept thinking
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this is just madness. This is not getting anyone
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anywhere really. I mean, it's this question of
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sort of loyalty, I suppose. And at what point, you know, do
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you think ultimately politics was the most important thing in
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his life? In Michael's life.
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You know, did it come before you and family and everything?
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I don't think I no, I just think it took up more space and it's
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just a bigger thing politics. You know, it's like I've got two
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dogs, 1 is a a Labrador and and eats entire wheels of cheese
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when I'm not looking, and the other is a little Lasa Apso and
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she's very easygoing. I love them both equally, but
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the but the but the big dog takes up a lot of my a lot more
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of my time, effort and money. Do you know what I mean?
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It's just, it's just politics is is a big thing.
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Brexit was, of course, the big breakup.
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Yes, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Now, now your position in Brexit is really interesting because
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you, I mean, you weren't really a Brexit.
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Not, not really, no. I mean, I grew up in Italy, so,
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you know, I'm very I, I, I speak Italian, I speak French, I speak
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Spanish. I went to Italian schools till I
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was 15. My brother, you know, my, my
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family live in Spain and Italy. I'm not, you know, I'm not, I
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mean, I'm Welsh, so you know, but I'm an, I'm AI was an, I was
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an immigrant to, to well, effectively, we emigrated from
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the UK. So, so I always felt a bit, a
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bit of an outsider in the, in the, when I came back to the UK
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because I didn't really understand how the, I mean, this
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country is quite different from, from Europe, you know, and I can
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see and I can see Europe's flaws.
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I'm not stupid about it and I can see that it's very corrupt
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and very badly run in many places and there are all sorts
14:07
of poor problems. But broadly speaking, you know,
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I'm, I'm, I'm quite, sort of, I'm, I'm certainly not
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Europhobic. So you thought you were on sort
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of Team Cameron? No, I was on to what?
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No, I thought I was on to no. Wait, he was sort of
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Eurosceptical? He.
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He was, you know. My year on Europe was, was very,
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yes, very similar to Dave's. And I do say this in the book,
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which is that I thought we should lean in to Europe.
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I thought we should have more agency there.
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I felt that the attitude of Britain towards Brussels was a
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bit sort of a bit too gung ho and probably also a bit just
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alienating. And I felt that if we could, if
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we could, if we could become, if we could find some ways through
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that, you know, we could have, we'd have more influence, which
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is really what you need to have. And I remember Michael and I
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went once on holiday to Antwerp, but I would recommend it for a
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weekend break. It's very lovely.
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Lots of antique shops and nice beer.
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And I remember sort of vaguely fantasizing about, oh, well, you
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know, maybe Michael could go and work in Brussels and he could be
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sort of Cameron's man in, in, in Europe.
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And I could sort of wander around and the children could
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speak French and my mother could come and stay.
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But that was not to me. But from the book it seems you
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didn't even really realise how Eurosceptic Michael was.
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No, I didn't actually, because I mean, he never sat down and and
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talked. I mean, but I think the thing
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about Michael's Euroscepticism is that it's not cultural.
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It's purely intellectual. You know, Michael, I mean, you
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know, why, why else would he marry someone like me, you know,
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who's kind of quite sort of, you know, European really.
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And and you know, he loves, he loves going to France.
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And it was, it was very his, I think his, his objection was
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primarily sort of emotional in the sense that, you know, his
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father did lose his, his job because of the fishing stuff.
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And you know, his, he, he was adopted by a fishing family
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effectively in Aberdeen. And they, they were all
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fishermen one way or the other, all the sort of uncles and that
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lot. So they all had, you know, they
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were, they were all very, they were badly affected by the, by
16:14
the fishing stuff. And so I think he felt a great
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deal of loyalty to his adoptive parents and, and rightly so,
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because, you know, as far as he was concerned, they were the
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ones who gave him a second chance.
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And so when it came down to the wire, you know, he wasn't going
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to betray them quite honestly. And I, so I think loyalty, when
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you talk about loyalty, I think his prime loyalty really was to
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his family. So, you know, and I don't have a
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problem with that. I I understand that.
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And and how strong was the hand of Dominic Cummings, do you
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think, in persuading him of this?
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Because he was, I think, Michael's advisor before he was
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ever bought. Well, Dominic came to work for
16:52
Michael when he was in opposition, when they were in
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opposition. So, you know, when Michael was
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putting together the sort of reforms of education that he
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then went ahead with. So I mean, they had a couple of
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good years sitting in quite a small office in Portcullis
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House, you know, thinking about stuff.
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And he'd known him previously as well because Dom had been
17:11
involved in business for Sterling and and other things
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like that. And I think Michael had huge
17:16
respect for Dom's intellect. And Dom is incredibly
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intelligent and very analytical and very sharp.
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Really, really sharp. He doesn't have great
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interpersonal skills. I think he would, he would be
17:28
admit that he can be quite abrasive and I think, I think
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Michael always listens to Dom, you know, I think he always
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does. So he would have been.
17:38
Influential. Yeah.
17:38
Hugely influential, yeah. I mean, tell me what?
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Happened Dave didn't like Dom right from the start so.
17:43
Yeah, I mean, he stopped him being Michael's special advisor
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when he made him education. Secretary Well, he tried to, yes
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and and eventually then he relented but said you've got to
17:53
keep him under control, which Michael then failed to do.
17:57
So tell me what happened when when this came to a head with
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David Cameron and you? Well, it's sort of.
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I mean, it was a low. It was a slow, long, painful
18:09
process of things just getting more and more awkward.
18:13
And then there was a sort of, there was a, there was a
18:16
birthday party, Andrew Feldman's 50th, Andrew Feldman was the
18:20
treasurer of the Tory party, lovely man, very nice guy.
18:24
And he was having a birthday party for his 50th.
18:26
And we were invited and I said I don't think we should go because
18:30
we'd already got. So it was, it was sort of
18:32
February 2000 and just before the referendum 2016.
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So it was kind of, things were a bit tense, so I thought better
18:40
not go, stay away from it. Anyway, various people said no,
18:43
no, no, please come, please come.
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So, OK, so I went and then as luck would have it, I ended up
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going up in the lift to the venue with Dave and Sam.
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And Dave was really angry at that point.
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He was, I think he'd really just had enough.
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And it was unlucky because that was the day that I wrote an
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article in the Daily Mail trying to explain in a sort of pathetic
19:05
me trying to make everything OK sort of kind of way why, why
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this was happening, why Michael was doing what he was doing.
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And it had the opposite effect. I think it just enraged him and
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it and I think it also enraged Samantha because A, she didn't
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she didn't think I should write about it and B, she doesn't like
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that she didn't like the Daily Mail.
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So going up in the lift tapes said to me, you've got to get
19:26
your husband under control. There was some swearing, but I
19:29
won't swear on the podcast. You've got to get your husband
19:31
under control. And I sort of went, OK, I don't
19:33
know how to do that. And then I went for dinner.
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And then at the end of dinner, when I got up to leave, which I
19:37
did quite early, Sam had a bit of a go, which was reported as
19:42
us sort of having a kind of East End of style.
19:44
Fight said what she actually said.
19:46
Haven't. You well, I can't actually
19:47
remember because I was so upset at the you know, when you, you
19:49
know when things happen and you're very, very, very upset.
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I don't the blessed sponge of amnesia has has wiped the exact
19:56
words from my brain, but it was words to the effect of A, how
20:00
dare you write a piece about us in the Daily Mail.
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B, Why are you working with the Daily Mail?
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C Why is your husband trying to destroy my husband?
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You know all of that stuff, which you know is completely
20:10
understandable really when you think about it.
20:13
And that was deeply upsetting for you?
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Well, of course, I mean, yes, because, because not only did I
20:20
feel really upset because my friend who I really liked was
20:23
angry with me, I also felt, I also felt guilty because I
20:27
thought that if I had handled the situation somehow better and
20:31
had not been quite so sort of useless at, at, at negotiating
20:36
that, you know, trying to navigate this really difficult
20:39
situation. I I if I'd done, if I'd been
20:42
better at doing that, then we probably wouldn't have got to
20:44
the. Stage your job to negotiate.
20:46
Because it's my your. Husband's political choice, I
20:49
know, but I just. I was.
20:50
Someone, someone had to do it right and no one was doing it.
20:53
And I probably, I don't know why I think I was, I just, I was
20:58
paralysed by sort of confusion and indecision and just pulled
21:03
in a lot of different directions.
21:05
And I and I wanted to support Michael and I understood his
21:08
motives. But I really liked James Sam
21:11
really wanted to carry on being their friend and really didn't
21:14
want to upset everybody. But then so and then in the end
21:16
I just ended up upsetting everybody.
21:18
Were you a bit seduced by? Yes.
21:21
The course of the cameras. So glamorous and fabulous.
21:24
Yes, I mean, Dave was Dave is one of those people who just
21:27
glides through life. You know, he's like a sort of
21:30
he's like a sort of James Bond figure.
21:32
You know, he's very, very, he's he's, you know, never shaken and
21:36
all of that stuff. Or is it shake?
21:37
I don't know anyway, but you know what I mean.
21:39
He's quite he's quite a sort of he's he's he's he's at ease in
21:42
him with himself and in the world.
21:45
And Sam is, is a sort of she's just great fun and very and and
21:52
very kind, but also just kind of all the things that I never was
21:56
quite sort of cool, quite posh, pretty, blonde, thin, good at
22:00
yoga, all the stuff that I slightly would like to be, but
22:03
never quite managed. I think the standard said it was
22:05
a girl crush. Yeah.
22:06
Was it a girl crush? Yeah, yeah, I think it was a
22:08
girl crush. Yeah, I think so.
22:10
It's OK to have girl crushes, right?
22:12
Yeah, and very common, but I mean, but, but I mean I mean.
22:15
But a bit. School, but a bit school Girly
22:17
maybe. Yes, I mean, I think that I was
22:19
always, I mean, I talk about this a bit in the book.
22:21
You know, I was, I was never the popular girl at school.
22:25
I was bullied at school. I was geeky.
22:29
You know, I was bookish. I, I used to look at people like
22:33
Samantha and I think I, I wished one of them would be my friends.
22:37
And then when one of them was my friends, I was just really
22:40
excited, you know? And desperate not to lose it of.
22:43
Course, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, it's a little
22:47
bit sort of Heather's. You remember that film?
22:49
Heather's yes, yes. Although I didn't, I didn't blow
22:52
up the school. But when you look back at
22:53
yourself sort of crushing on Sam Cameron, do you what do you
22:56
think? Do you think it was entirely
22:57
understandable, or do you think it was a bit silly?
22:59
Probably a bit silly, no? What do you think?
23:04
I mean, you can look at it a number of ways, can't you?
23:06
You can either say, well, I I understand why that happened
23:08
given everything you said about your your childhood, but but
23:11
also maybe it was a maybe it was a bit immature.
23:15
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, this the whole, I mean, when if
23:18
you write a memoir, you've got to be honest about yourself.
23:20
There's no point writing a memoir going.
23:22
And here I am and I was right about everything and I'm too
23:24
fantastic because no one is interested in that.
23:26
You know, it has to be a self reflection and it has to be
23:30
warts and all, and it has to be my mistakes.
23:32
I mean, that's why the picture on the cover is a woman face
23:35
planting because, you know, this is a book about all the, I mean,
23:38
I'm really the worst person in the book.
23:40
I'm the person who's made the mistakes.
23:41
And I've tried to be honest about it.
23:43
And, you know, so some of it is really embarrassing.
23:46
But isn't that just life? Don't we all just make terrible
23:49
mistakes? And the key thing is to try and
23:51
learn from them, right? So, so, yeah, I think back in
23:55
those back in the day, yes, I was very, I was very entranced
23:59
by them and their lifestyle and very sort of, I felt kind of
24:03
very special to be part of that group.
24:06
I say to be Sam's friend was a very special thing.
24:09
And, and yeah, so I so it was, it was so being kind of cast out
24:15
was was, you know, it was, it was like, you know, you're
24:18
suddenly not in the in the gang anymore.
24:21
And that I found that quite tricky.
24:23
The political consequences, as you say, were huge.
24:26
Yeah. From Brexit.
24:27
And you've ended up being incredibly critical of David
24:29
Cameron, haven't you? I mean.
24:31
Just just for that moment in in his, you know, yes, walking
24:35
away, yes. I, I mean, I wouldn't I'm not
24:37
critical. I don't really criticise him in
24:39
any other way in the book in terms of his politics.
24:41
I don't think that I think actually he was quite a good
24:43
Prime Minister up and to that point.
24:45
But I think walking if. Sort of born to lead Etonians
24:47
who kind of all of loosely stride through government, but
24:50
there's nothing I. Mean that's not necessarily a
24:52
bad thing, right? But I, but I think in terms of
24:54
that moment, I think that was a bad moment because I think it's
24:57
precipitated the sort of proper psychosis of the Tory party,
25:00
which, you know, from which it has not recovered and may never
25:03
recover. And, you know, it was, it was a
25:06
moment of, you know, if he had just stayed, if he'd said, if
25:11
he'd come out that morning and said, look, I'm, I'm really
25:13
upset about this. I, this is not the result that I
25:15
wanted, but you know, I am your Prime Minister.
25:17
I did call this referendum. I did in effect start this fire.
25:20
So I need to try and put it out and I will remain and, and try
25:23
and effect a smooth transition. I think things might have been
25:27
quite different. Do you know what I mean?
25:30
And I think because he left, then that sort of was that was,
25:33
that was the schism, and that was what created the chaos.
25:38
But what? What is it do you think, that
25:40
you didn't see early on in life about what politics would do?
25:46
You know what was the misjudgment if there was?
25:48
I think that I I just didn't understand the world.
25:51
I mean, I was never really in politics.
25:53
I was never a political journalist.
25:55
I was a sort of, you know, I was an arts journalist really.
25:58
That was my thing. I liked, you know, the theatre
26:01
and all of this kind of stuff. And, and, and I didn't really
26:07
understand the world of politics particularly well.
26:10
And, you know, my parents weren't very political.
26:12
I didn't grow up in a political family, you know, so I'm just
26:14
not really from that world. So it was really alien to me.
26:18
I, I, I couldn't really understand it at all for a
26:21
while. Took me a long time to get to
26:23
grips with it. I mean, obviously Michael Gove
26:26
was, I mean, he drew a huge amount of criticism.
26:29
Lots of people hated him. And in a world of social media
26:32
and online criticism, you're absolutely in the firing line.
26:35
Totally. Yeah, you as well, because of
26:37
your job at the Daily Mail. Draw your own fire and you were
26:41
supporting. It's funny though.
26:43
You see, I write the same articles at the Daily Mail that
26:45
I used to write at the Times, and yet the response is
26:47
completely different. They're not quite the same, are
26:49
they, are they? Quite similar.
26:50
If you read back some of my Times articles, they were quite
26:52
punchy and I used to write leaders as well.
26:54
So it's fascinating this sort of the perception is is.
26:59
Daily Mail journalist is worse than Times journalist saying the
27:02
same thing. But I mean, you got, you got.
27:06
So what's it like when you're in that place and this is a
27:09
position not of your choosing, but of your husband's, and
27:12
you're getting all this hate? Well, it that's quite tricky.
27:16
That is quite difficult. It's very difficult when the
27:20
person that everybody thinks you are bears no relation whatsoever
27:23
in your head to who you think you are.
27:27
Do you see what I'm saying? There's a massive disconnect and
27:29
you get this strange sort of, yes, it's a disconnect.
27:34
You don't, you feel like your persona is twisted out of shape
27:39
is the best way to put it. You feel very warped by
27:41
everything. I suppose it's a sort of form of
27:47
maybe it's a form of dysphoria, you know, like, you know, when
27:49
people look at themselves in the mirror, if you're, if you have
27:52
an eating disorder, you see a fat person when you're actually
27:54
perfectly normal size. You know, I would think that I
27:59
was a good person and, and, and a decent person, but actually
28:02
apparently I'm not. Apparently I'm a witch.
28:05
So that's difficult to deal with, I think.
28:07
Does it ever make you doubt your own judgement of yourself?
28:11
Well, sometimes it just makes me cry because it's just sad and
28:14
upsetting. And it's particularly bad when
28:18
you see it happen to someone you love, you know, Michael, but
28:23
also my children who've had it a bit, you know, for various
28:29
reasons at various points. And that's very difficult
28:33
actually, because you just, you know, you can just, it's just,
28:36
you can, especially if it's a young person, you know, I have a
28:39
lot of sympathy for, you know, young celebrities, young pop
28:43
stars, like, you know, people like Lola Young who get sort of
28:47
this happens to them. And it's just, and they're like,
28:49
well, what if I, you know, I didn't, that's not who I am.
28:51
Why are you saying those things about me?
28:53
It's very, very hard. That sort of social media
28:56
critique where people who've never met you, they've never
28:59
been in a room with you. They've no idea who you are or
29:02
what you, where you've come from or what you've done.
29:04
And they just, you know, they just have a, have a judgement on
29:08
you. You're like, well, that's where
29:09
I can't, you know, I can't. It's difficult.
29:12
It's really tricky. Yeah.
29:14
Psychologically. Did you resent it?
29:18
Yes, I mean there it's it's like there are stages.
29:20
There are stages of it that you know, the first stages you
29:23
disbelief, you try and ignore it, then you get very angry
29:26
about it. Then you try to push back, which
29:28
is always a mistake. Never try to push back because
29:31
you always get yourself an even deeper then you then you become
29:34
upset about it and then you then you and then you accept it.
29:37
It's like, you know, it's like it's, it's, it's a process and
29:42
you have to go through it. It's a process of brutalisation
29:44
that takes place and it, and it happens to, I mean, it doesn't
29:47
just happen to politicians. It happens to anyone who's in
29:50
the public eye. I think, you know, there's,
29:51
there's that sort of kind of running that gauntlet.
29:56
It's not, it's not easy. It's not easy, no.
29:58
I, I wanted an interview with Damon Albarn, who told me that
30:01
he had seen Michael across the road in West 10 in in North
30:05
Kensington and had shouted at him, got, you know, worse to the
30:09
effect of Govier an idiot, and he'd walked across the road and
30:12
ended up spending half an hour talking.
30:14
To him having a chat with him, I mean, I mean, my son in the book
30:18
talks about going to football games with his father, people
30:23
just hurling abuse at him. And you know, for an 8 year old
30:26
to see that, it's quite tricky. You know, this is like you're,
30:29
you're trying to work out where you are in the world, Not that,
30:33
you know, again, you know, no one should feel it.
30:35
No one will feel any sympathy. But it is, you know, in your own
30:38
world, in your own sphere, it's quite a big thing.
30:40
I mean, you know that people don't feel sympathy, don't you?
30:42
So I mean so of course. No, no, no, of course no.
30:44
So what's that like? I mean, do you do you just feel
30:47
like nobody knows? Nobody out there really has.
30:50
To understand is there comes a point at some point, and I talk
30:54
about it in the book, where you cease to be human and you're
30:58
making a category error. If you think that people are
31:00
going to still treat you as though you were a human, you are
31:03
no longer human. You are simply a sort of target.
31:08
And you're either a target for the people who hate you or hate
31:11
your husband or hate the newspaper that you work for, or,
31:14
you know, just hate you because you've got a funny nose or
31:18
whatever, or you know, your eyes are the wrong colour, whatever.
31:21
It's just, it's just, it's just, you know, you're just not human
31:24
anymore. It's just to kind of focal point
31:28
for their frustrations and anger.
31:31
And it it makes it easier if if you just submit to it.
31:36
I think generally and Michael and I used to have this argument
31:39
all the time because in the beginning I used to get upset
31:42
and I would try and fight back, you know, and I would try and
31:44
sort of make the case and all of that.
31:45
And he was be just like, there's no point, Sarah.
31:49
Why did you go along with supporting Brexit given you
31:54
weren't really a Brexiteer? Was that just out of loyalty to
31:57
ours? Yeah, really, because.
31:58
And that was the political wife. Bit Yeah, yeah, definitely.
32:01
Yeah, I think so. Definitely.
32:03
Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, because I
32:07
mean, you, you remember Boris Johnson said that he, you know,
32:10
he'd, he'd played out the arguments for both remain and
32:13
leave and he'd written them down.
32:16
And I, I really identify that because I make sense of the
32:19
world by writing things down. That's how I get my thoughts in
32:22
order, you know, So if I don't know what I'm going to do about
32:24
something, I'll often write a list of pros and cons, you know,
32:30
And so I think I was in a similar position to Boris, which
32:33
was that, you know, I could see the pros and I could see the
32:35
cons and I could see the advantages and the disadvantages
32:38
and I could see the, you know, but what weighed it for me was
32:41
the fact that Michael was so determined.
32:44
And so you know, I supported. Him.
32:47
And was it right to do that? What to support my to?
32:50
Support your husband. Is that what a political wife
32:52
should do? I think, yes, I think, I think
32:55
that you have to be a partnership.
32:57
I think you have to have, you have to be on the same page.
33:01
Otherwise it just doesn't work because it's such a tricky
33:04
world. You know, it's so difficult.
33:06
There are so many knocks and things that happened to you.
33:09
I think you, you know, you need to be on the same page,
33:12
otherwise it's very hard. So you know.
33:16
But it didn't work anyway I suppose.
33:17
No, but I think I think for Michael, I think Michael and I
33:20
had particularly difficult pressures because if you think
33:23
of it, you know, there was a lot that went wrong and there's a
33:25
lot of things that happened subsequent to that.
33:27
And there are other, you know, there are other factors as well.
33:30
So, but I think probably if that, if that Brexit moment
33:37
hadn't happened, if Dave hadn't done the referendum and if we
33:41
just carry, I think we probably wouldn't have ended up getting
33:44
divorced. I think.
33:45
I mean, I can't say obviously, because who can say?
33:48
But I think it would have been easier, you know, I think, I
33:50
think they wouldn't have been that sort of.
33:52
Because those pressures wouldn't have been.
33:53
There, yeah. The pressures wouldn't have been
33:55
there. Yeah, yeah.
33:56
So does that make you resent politics and hate it?
34:02
I mean, hate would be a very strong word.
34:04
I, I just, I don't have any illusions about it anymore.
34:09
No, I don't know. I'm but I'm not that sort of
34:11
person. Anymore, I mean, I said at the
34:12
beginning it wrecked your life. Was that overstating it or did
34:14
it did wreck your life? I.
34:16
Mean it's yes, in aspects of mine, definitely yes.
34:20
I mean it. It's, well, I suppose maybe
34:21
derailed my life would be a better thing to say because I
34:24
wouldn't say my life is wrecked. You think people should go into
34:26
politics then, having seen it? I haven't.
34:29
Seen it. I think yes, because we need
34:31
better people in politics. We need good people in politics.
34:35
Politicians should be paid more. They should be.
34:38
People should understand that it's the hardest job and that,
34:41
you know, it's such an important job because politics is people's
34:44
lives, you know? I mean, even if you don't, even
34:48
if you don't feel it necessarily, everything that
34:50
happens in your life is because of a political decision because
34:54
that's one of the other. Criticisms.
34:55
I think of that whole court of Cameron, isn't it?
34:57
Which is that it felt like you were all playing at it, that it
35:01
was fun. Yes, Michael wasn't playing.
35:04
Michael's very serious about his reforms, really serious about
35:07
his reforms. But the others were.
35:09
I don't know. I can't, I mean, I can't really
35:10
speak for them, but they, but no, for them it was it.
35:13
Well, I mean, there was an element of of of it being the
35:17
game in the sense that it was a game that needed to be won.
35:20
Do you see what I mean? It wasn't a game in the sense
35:21
that it was just fun and games. It was that they were deadly
35:24
serious about winning it. Yeah, but a bit.
35:26
But it's that whole sort of born to rule thing, isn't it, That
35:29
this is what you do. You go to Oxford, you go into
35:32
politics, you become Prime Minister, you run the country
35:34
for a bit, you go off, make loads of money and possibly, you
35:38
know, you might have a sort of patrician view of helping people
35:42
along the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:43
But it's. It's not.
35:45
There was a little there. There is a sense there is I
35:47
think a sense of entitlement there.
35:49
But I think it's I don't think it's malicious and I don't think
35:52
it's necessarily conscious. I think it's a bit unconscious
35:56
because I think when you grow up in that world where you know
35:59
that is the path that's set for you, those are the things that
36:02
you do. Those are the benchmarks.
36:03
You know, you go to the right school, you go to the right
36:05
university, you have the right connections, your friends are
36:08
the right people. That's just your world, that's
36:10
just your reality. So you don't really think of it
36:12
in those terms. It's just what you do.
36:14
Do you see what I'm saying? Whereas if you're someone like
36:16
Michael and you come from a very different sort of starting
36:19
point, you know, adopted child, Aberdeen, fishing family,
36:24
etcetera, and you get into this world, then it's a different,
36:28
you know, there's, there's always that thing of do I really
36:31
belong here? Am I welcome?
36:33
Should I be here? Am I worthy to be here?
36:35
I need to prove myself, I need to earn my position here and all
36:38
of that kind of stuff. And I think, I think that's
36:41
probably the difference that we're talking about.
36:43
There's this section in the book about your breakup, which is
36:46
when you moved into the new house.
36:49
So many people have. Mentioned well, I supposedly
36:51
it's because you have. You've only given so much and
36:55
quite rightly, why should you tell every secret about your
36:57
marriage? But this is a bit about the
36:59
breakup that you've laid out, which is that he didn't want to
37:02
unpack his books and he didn't take part in the move.
37:05
Yeah. And left it all to you and.
37:07
Suppose that was the indicator. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:09
That he wasn't in this anymore. Yes, I mean, we both reacted to
37:13
the sort of trauma, if you want to, if I can use that word, it's
37:16
probably a bit too dramatic, but we both reacted to what happened
37:20
differently and we went in very different directions.
37:23
And I just wanted to run away as fast as possible from politics
37:27
and from that world. And I'd, I realised that it was
37:30
that, that, that, you know, that the time that the time that we
37:35
had was over, I, I understood that it was an ending.
37:38
And, you know, we lived very close to the Camerons and in a,
37:41
in a sort of, in a part of the world where all of those people
37:44
live and exist. And I thought we just need to
37:47
move and start again, you know, And Michael went the other way
37:52
and he just wanted to, he just wanted to, to, to hunker down
37:57
and, and, and regroup and go back in as it were.
38:03
And and you know, we move, we moved house and it just, I
38:08
thought it would be a kind of new beginning and it wasn't.
38:12
Beginning of the end. It was kind of the beginning of
38:14
the end. Yeah, I.
38:16
Mean having gone through all of. This, I mean, I think a lot of
38:17
people who've gone through break UPS will recognise that, you
38:20
know, not not those particular circumstances, but a similar set
38:24
of circumstances perhaps I. Mean, you know, you've laid out
38:28
these two sort of very personal, personally painful aspects of
38:32
your life. Has that changed at all?
38:34
The way you want to write as a columnist?
38:38
Because you are a punchy, critical columnist who has a go
38:41
at people. It's why you're so controversial
38:44
on the Daily Mail. It's why you joke about being a
38:46
Wednesday. Witch does it make you want to
38:48
be nicer? I am quite nice in most of my
38:52
columns actually. Just that most people don't read
38:54
them, they just think they read them.
38:56
They read the headline or they look at the picture.
38:59
I mean, I, I'm very, you know, the person, the person I'm most
39:03
critical of, in many cases myself.
39:08
And the other thing to remember is that people are incredibly
39:10
hard on me. So, you know, when people are
39:14
very hard on you and never give you the benefit of the doubt,
39:17
then it's not, you know, it's, you know, critical.
39:23
I live in a critical environment and my job is to analyse
39:28
situations and, you know, events and to say what I think about
39:32
it. And I always just say honestly
39:34
what I think about it. Is it still comfortable doing
39:36
that though? Well, sometimes I will say
39:37
things that people think are completely weird.
39:39
Like, you know, I'll say I completely, you know, I don't
39:41
think Meghan Markle is the problem here or, you know, all
39:44
the things that I say. And also if I write an awful
39:47
lot, So there's just a lot out there, but so.
39:52
Is there a drive there? I mean, is it?
39:53
Is it? Are you pushed to?
39:56
What are the male? No, no, no.
39:58
The the most common phrase that I get told is you must write
40:02
what you want to write. Because you.
40:04
So I I mean I I I I'm. Am I wrong to have noticed a
40:07
slight change in what you're writing because you started
40:09
writing about your, your own health and Ozempic and all those
40:13
sorts of things? Yeah, a bit more.
40:14
I mean I I. And a bit less of the sort of.
40:17
I think I. Having a go at celebrities.
40:19
I mean, well, having a go at celebrities is, I don't know.
40:25
I think you know that that's the kind of that's, there's a
40:27
certain tradition of that in British newspaper publishing.
40:30
It's horrible, isn't? It and it's part of the job, but
40:32
what I would say is that I think.
40:34
The people shouldn't be part of the job.
40:36
That's. Well, I mean celebrities.
40:37
Yeah, isn't it just mean? I mean, OK, let's, let's be
40:41
real, the worst thing that was ever written about me, right,
40:44
was written by a journalist, A journalist.
40:47
He's a comedian. Actually, Stuart Lee in The
40:49
Guardian actually was the Observer.
40:51
But now that's basically the Observer.
40:53
And he said that when David Cameron was at university, he
40:58
allegedly put his penis into a dead pig.
41:01
And then he wrote that when Michael Gove did something
41:06
arguably worse, which is that he put his penis into a Daily Mail
41:09
journalist. OK, So that's what he said.
41:11
I mean, it was a bit ruder than that and I'm not going to say
41:13
so, you know, that's what's that's what that's the kind of
41:17
stuff that gets said about me, OK, Which is it's fine.
41:20
You know, you make you think that's that.
41:22
If that's a joke for you, that's great.
41:24
But I don't think me saying I'm not sure that dress suited, I
41:29
don't know, whoever it was is on par with that.
41:32
I really just don't. And everyone thinks that the
41:34
Guardian and Observer is the nicest newspaper in the world
41:36
and everyone thinks, but you know, there is plenty of
41:39
unpleasantness around in newspapers.
41:41
And it's not just. Oh I know absolutely I agree.
41:45
But I just wonder how you feel about unpleasantness now because
41:47
you you've clearly been on a journey personally.
41:49
Yeah, of course, but I, but I think it's a, you know, I think
41:52
it's OK to have a sort of considered opinion about people,
41:56
you know, in public life, you know, if you're, if you're in
41:59
public life and people don't feel any sympathy for
42:02
politicians because they choose that existence.
42:05
I do feel so I, I am quite sympathetic actually towards
42:08
celebrities I've talked to earlier about literally young,
42:10
younger celebrities like that who have, who are young and
42:13
immature and therefore not really, you know, they probably
42:15
don't know how to cope with things, but you know, there are
42:18
some people who are perfectly grown up and perfectly capable
42:21
of doing. It's a fair game.
42:23
Kind of, yeah. I've also heard how you shrug
42:26
off the criticism and I, I, I'm not sure I'm totally convinced
42:32
because what you've, what you've, what you've written
42:34
about, I suppose, is about a, you know, painful.
42:38
Well, it's a culture. Criticism and all that kind of
42:40
stuff. And clearly, you know, you, you
42:43
still face a lot of criticism now that some of it is very
42:45
difficult. So you don't really just ignore
42:51
it, do you? No, of course not.
42:53
But no one, I mean, you know, I'm sure Donald Trump in his
42:56
darkest hour has a bit of a Boo and, you know, if he's done
43:00
something wrong, I mean, we're all human at the end of the day.
43:02
You know, you can't say, oh, it doesn't affect me.
43:04
Of course it affects me. Sometimes I just think you have
43:07
to be the most important thing I think at the end of the day is
43:11
to try and be as authentic as you can be, because I think
43:14
authenticity is something that's, you know, not not not
43:17
something you get very often in the world.
43:19
Is it because everything is, you know, Instagram, we're all air
43:22
filters and you know, air brushing and all that kind of
43:25
stuff. You know, I but I think.
43:26
And you are you. You.
43:27
You write what you think. I do write what I think, even if
43:30
what I think is annoying or cross making, I still write it.
43:33
I mean. Do you think Michael Gove is
43:36
authentically him because he has lots of ways of protecting
43:40
himself? I mean, I say this is something
43:42
I knew Michael in his early 20s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:44
And then I sort of stopped knowing him when he became a
43:46
politician because he kind of dumped all these journalism
43:48
friends. And.
43:51
And so I recognise all the sort of the tics that he has to kind
43:54
of hide what he really is. Yes, I think he's a very.
43:57
I think he's, I think one of the difficulties perhaps that he had
44:01
in being married to me, other than the obvious drawbacks is
44:06
that he's a very guarded person. You know, different in that
44:12
respect. You know, I, I am the other way.
44:14
I'm, I'm an inside out person. He's an outside in person and.
44:17
Do you think that Hanford him politically in terms of being
44:20
popular? I think possibly, yes, because I
44:21
think a lot of people never really saw the authentic
44:23
Michael, who's actually, you know, you probably know from
44:26
having known him in his 20s, quite a laugh, you know, quite
44:29
clever, interesting, funny, mischievous, all of those
44:32
things. And I think that, you know,
44:35
politics slightly paralysed that side of him a little bit, I
44:39
think because he felt that he had to present a certain, you
44:43
know, front. And just finally, I mean, I
44:47
think you know what one of the break UPS we didn't mention is,
44:51
is the break up between you and politics.
44:55
Do you want to be back there? You know, do you want
44:57
reconciliation with all of these break UPS?
44:59
It's funny. You know if Sam Cam rang you
45:01
tomorrow and said come back and be friends, would you?
45:05
Of course, of course, but I think it's very unlikely,
45:07
especially after I've written this book.
45:10
But I think there's a sort of element of Stockholm syndrome,
45:12
isn't there with with me in politics, which is that, you
45:15
know, the problem is I, I do, it drives me around the bend.
45:19
But I also do now understand and I do, I am quite linked.
45:23
We have a trauma bond politics and I, you know, they're
45:27
together as we're sort of handcuffed together on some
45:30
terrible sort of sinking ship. Yes, so and and.
45:34
So for all of those three things, is their source of a
45:37
desire to get back together. With me and politics.
45:41
Politics. The Camerons.
45:44
Michael Gove. No, not, no, I think that ship
45:46
has probably sailed. But I think, and I think all
45:49
those ships have probably sailed.
45:50
But I think politics is something that I remain that I,
45:53
so having started on this, in this, on this journey, not even
45:56
slightly interested in politics, I am now quite fascinated by,
45:59
and I am fascinated by the people in it and the dynamics
46:01
and the way it affects people and how it works.
46:04
And, you know, I just wish it could be better.
46:09
You know, I mean, I don't think I could, I can fix it, but I, I
46:12
wish it could be better. And I, I have some ideas about
46:15
how it could be better. But I know that thinking you
46:20
can, you know, you could, you can actually make a difference
46:24
or fix politics is a sort of fool's errand.
46:27
So, but it doesn't stop me being interested and, and, you know,
46:31
always fascinated by what's going on and.
46:33
Politics isn't a fool's errand yet, I mean.
46:37
I mean, is it, I don't know. I mean, arguably, I mean, this
46:42
is a whole other discussion. Probably you should probably do
46:45
your own podcasts on the But arguably the power doesn't
46:48
really lie with the politicians anymore, does it?
46:50
I mean, arguably it lies with the people who run the social
46:53
media websites and the and the, the Elon Musks of this world.
46:57
I mean, presumably they make most of the decisions about, you
47:00
know, what news we consume, what information we consume, how
47:03
it's, how it's spun, how it's framed, how it's presented, You
47:07
know, you know, what are politicians?
47:10
They're, they're just people. And these are great, huge
47:13
organisations that have incredible influence and reach
47:18
in people's lives. And in a way that, well, you
47:21
know, it's a stealth thing, isn't it?
47:24
And it's, it's fascinating. I mean the we stand on the cusp
47:28
of a lot of very serious changes, don't we?
47:31
I think. Yeah.
47:32
Definitely. I mean, there's, you know, is
47:34
politics, is it fit for purpose anymore?
47:37
That's, I mean, look at America, is that does it work?
47:39
I don't know. Does democracy work anymore?
47:42
Do people get what they need from it?
47:43
I'm not sure they do. These are all interesting and
47:48
important questions for our time.
47:50
Sarah Vine, thank you very much. Pleasure.
47:52
That's the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.