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"Unshackled: Topeka Sam on Transforming Incarceration into Advocacy" · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
Like I said, survive incarceration, come home looking
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for the job that's going to pay you 6 figures right out the
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door. While it has happened for some
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people, that wasn't my journey, right?
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Nor is it the average individual's journey.
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And so you cannot be arrogant. You have to remain humble.
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You will get Nos and that's fine.
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You know you got a lot of them when you in prison, you know.
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So continue to push forward. So that's all I did.
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I just kept kept going and I started going until, you know, I
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was like, all right, well, I knew, I knew how to speak.
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I wanted to share my experience and I started creating things
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where I saw gaps. And that's just how I started.
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I just, I try to find the solution that I believe that I
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need to create. There's no original idea.
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I think we all got to impart different ideas and many of us
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and whoever gets to the door first is just, you know, how it
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gets done. What happens when your worst
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fear becomes your? Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy.
1:01
Welcome to the Nightmare Success In and Out podcast where we
1:05
explore how to overcome your fears and nightmares to set
1:08
yourself free. We're going to be exploring this
1:10
topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
1:13
survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring,
1:18
sometimes sad. There's some humor, but
1:21
hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
1:24
help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
1:27
mind. Welcome back, nightmare success.
1:29
Now, listeners, this is where you come from.
1:30
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
1:32
How do you adapt, survive, overcome, set yourself free?
1:36
I know I sound like a broken record, but folks, don't forget
1:39
to follow. Subscribe, share this thing out,
1:41
like it up. It really helps the show and I
1:42
really appreciate it. So who are we talking to today?
1:46
I first want to give a shout out to Jessica O'Brien.
1:50
It's actually Jessica's episode 184, incredible story of a
1:54
judge. She went through, fought a case
1:57
and still fighting, but she connected me to Topeka Sam and
2:01
Topeka Sam is kind of like, I guess she would say she's like a
2:05
celebrity to me. I follow her all the time.
2:07
I'm so honored to have her on the show.
2:10
I want to give you a little bit of background of what I was just
2:13
talking to before we got on here about how fast she has moved.
2:17
She hasn't let any grass grow under her feet since she got out
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of prison. But here's Topeka Sam.
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She's nationally recognized leader in the criminal justice
2:26
reform category, dedicated to transforming the lives of women
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and girls impacted by incarceration.
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After serving time in federal prison herself, Topeka emerged
2:38
as a powerful voice for change. She is the founder and executive
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director of the Ladies of Hope Ministries, an organization that
2:45
provides housing, re entry, support and advocacy for
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formerly incarcerated women. Her story and mission have been
2:53
featured by major outlets including the the Today Show,
2:56
CNN, The Tamron Hall Show, New York Times.
3:01
Topeka has advised policymakers, including speaking at the White
3:04
House and testified he's testifying before Congress to
3:08
advance legislation on reform and second chances.
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Topeka was also ran into full pardon, Presidential pardon
3:16
December 23rd, 2020. She's just passionate, she's
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fearless, she's inspiring. Topeka Sam represents resilience
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and purpose driven leadership. Through her advocacy, she
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challenges the stigma of incarceration and builds
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pathways of hope, dignity and opportunity for women returning
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home. Just a little side note, she
3:35
also does a little film work and that film work, she put together
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a film about Alice Johnson and that film got a lot of response
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from people that caught the attention of the Kim Kardashian.
3:49
Kim Kardashian. Topeka teamed up and they got
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Alice Johnson out of prison. Alice Johnson is serving as the
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currently as the pardons are and the Trump administration.
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So just a little extra stuff that she does.
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She she helps people and recognizes stories and does
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films that catches attention of people and changes people's
4:11
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story. Topeka, Sam, welcome in.
5:44
How are you? Thank you for having me.
5:46
I am awesome. Brent, what an introduction and
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you know what a what a little sponsor commercial.
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See, that was cool. Well, everybody has trouble when
6:00
they go. I I've turned like into the most
6:02
stupid person in the world. When I walk into a car
6:04
dealership, I think I'm, I think I kind of have it together.
6:07
And then when I go try to buy a car, it's like I lose, you know,
6:10
how do I, how do I get out of here?
6:11
How do I get out of here with a car?
6:13
Topeka, I am so just like blown away by you, what you've done.
6:18
You may, I could go on and on about what anybody wants to just
6:23
check out your Ted talk. It's amazing.
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I think you did that shortly after you got out of prison and
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it was like you just had it all together.
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And, and those stages of speaking like, you know, with,
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you know, a Ted talk is, is I've talked to people done and it's,
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it's, it's, it's, it's stressful.
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And you just did it. And I, I, I think it was what, 7
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years ago? So maybe seven years ago. 9 I
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mean, I was, I just got out. Nine years ago.
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The year before, nine years ago, I think it was in 20/16/20, it
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was 2017, so 8. Years, 2017. 3/20/17 It was a
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while ago. It was uh huh.
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Yeah, quite a while. Just come on.
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You were getting at that point, you were getting started and
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rolling and and doing your thing.
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I want to go back a little bit so people can can kind of get a
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flavor for where you came from because, you know, you talk a
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lot about Topeka growing up as a kid, that was, you know, your
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parents were entrepreneurs, but you were the only black family
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in the neighborhood. What was that like for you
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growing up in that environment that, you know, your parents did
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well, you guys had the swimming pool in the backyard, the
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American Dream. How was that for you?
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For me, for me, it was all I knew.
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So, you know, I thought everybody lived like that.
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You know, I knew I was black, obviously, but I didn't look at
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it like I was different, you know, in that way, you know,
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because I grew up with all of my friends, so I didn't know
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anything other than what I did. And when I went to the city on
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the weekends, my parents had us coming in the city.
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And so we would go in and we would, you know, spend a little
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time at my my father's or my parents Carvel.
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They had a Carvel franchise in Brooklyn.
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So we learned about like, you know, operating and owning a
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business. And then I went to Harlem
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School, the arts and was classically training piano,
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flute and dance. And so there it was in Harlem.
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So we're more black kids there. But again, we're all doing music
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and dance. And so I'm just thinking this is
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everyone's life. You know, I didn't really see
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outside of what was going on in different streets in Harlem
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because we become right to go into the, you know, into music
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school. Then we would go back into Long
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Island. So I didn't really, you know,
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know, it was what everybody had. Everybody had a pool, you know,
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because everybody had a pool on my block.
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Yeah. So, you know, I didn't really.
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I didn't really. It wasn't a big deal, if you
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will, you know. Yeah.
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And and the other thing that that you were, you were
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successful in a lot of things that you did in school.
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You know, you're president of this, the president of that.
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So I mean you, I guess you've always been that way.
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Do you think that's because of your parents and how they raised
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you and just the confidence that you had to describe to be at the
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top? Yes, and you know, I think that
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we're all born with different gifts, you know, and different
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things. And so my mom said I was always
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that way. And so they didn't try to I
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guess mute me. They always allowed me to be who
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I was and personality. I always was the person to speak
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up, even when I was younger. I was doing an interview the
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other day. They were asking me about like,
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being an entrepreneur. And I said, when I was little,
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my mother said I used to sell people advice.
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So I was like a little therapist and I would charge them a dollar
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for advice. One day she just saw all this
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money balled up in my little purse and she asked me where I
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got it from. And I said, oh, I was selling.
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I was giving people therapy sessions and I charged them.
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So, you know, it was just something was always just a
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thing for me. Yeah, And you've always been
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able to stand up for yourself. You've always been, you've
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always been able to stand up for yourself.
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You know, the the I think your mom at an early age, there was
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your brother and she said you send your Ted Talk.
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You know, she wanted you to go get a diaper.
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She says you go get a diaper. That's your baby.
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Yeah, so she always said you always had a lot of mouth and
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you always, you know, I was talking very early, you know,
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above average in a, in a lot of things.
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And, you know, I just as I grew and started to you don't
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understand who I was or just exploring more who I was as a
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black woman and wanting to understand that, you know, life
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changed when it was time for me to go to college.
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And that's really, you know, was I, I wanted to go to an HBCU,
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historically black college university, because I wanted to
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be now around other kids that were black and that looked like
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me and, you know, and learn more about who I was.
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And it was a complete, it was another culture shock.
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You know, you go from one extreme to another.
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Let's talk about that because I think that's when your life took
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a turn because you had that entrepreneurial spirit and you
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got into dating people from the city and those those people
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happen to be into drugs. And you thought, well, maybe
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that's an opportunity also, you know, to figure out, you know,
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how to work myself up this ladder and and be someone that
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can be big in this space. Can you can you walk us through
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all the how that happened, Topeka?
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Yeah, I can. I'm, I'm laughing now because I
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can't laugh now. But you know, man, I don't know
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what I was thinking. You know, it's, it's
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interesting. So, you know, dating guys and
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they were selling drugs and just really thought they would always
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get arrested, you know, and I'm like, they don't know what
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they're doing. Like, why don't aren't they
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doing it this way? And obviously, you know, with
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the men, often men don't listen. They don't want to take advice.
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Sometimes, sometimes men no more.
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I know everything, right? It is what it is.
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And so, you know, at that point I'm like, OK, as I'm watching
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and understanding it, for me it was just, OK, how do you get A
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to B? You know, I wasn't the person
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that was going to stand on the corner and sell drugs.
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I was just like, OK, how do I get A to B?
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And how do I make that connection?
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So more like a broker, right? And so I was dating a guy and we
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were dating for a few years. He was much older, about 16
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years older than me at the time. And he kind of disappeared.
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Like he was living in New York. I was living in Baltimore.
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And he disappeared for like, probably a month.
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I hadn't heard from him. Nothing.
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So I just basically went on, you know, about my business.
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And when he came back, you know, he told me that, you know,
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somebody had robbed him basically, and he will need to
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get his self together. And then I just asked him, well,
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what are you into? You know, And he was like, he,
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you know, he sold drugs. And I was like, well, what do
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you sell? I was like, well, I might be
13:38
able to help. And that's how it started.
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And so I ended up calling a friend of mine at the time who
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lived in another state. And I knew that she dated a guy
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who was, you know, selling drugs.
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And I asked her. So then I flew out there and she
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introduced me to the guy she was dating, who then made another
13:59
introduction and he had given me just like a little bit of
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cocaine, like a little ball. I don't even know what it was,
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how much it was any of that. So I flew back with it again,
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not knowing when I was doing. I flew back with it to Baltimore
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and saw some people that I knew and was like, hey, what do you
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think about this? And 1st, they're looking at me
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like, where'd you get this from? What are you doing?
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You know, and I'm just like, what do you think?
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So a friend of mine takes it and then he's like, well, if you
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could get it, get it. You know, this is really good.
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It's a good product. So if you can get it, get it.
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So I was like, OK, so I end up telling the guy I was dating,
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you know, that I had a Kinect is what they call it, you know, And
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so I went to go see the Kinect with him and basically they had
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a conversation. I just, you know, stepped aside
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and I thought I was doing something to help my man at the
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time, you know, that kind of thing.
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And, you know, you get in the good graces here I am, the
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younger girl who's helping my older guy who's been in this
15:05
game for so long and, you know, all the things.
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So, you know, who knows? But anyway, so I made the
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introduction to the people. He's having this big
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conversation about all the things that he can do.
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Next thing I know they call, he calls me months later, like in
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a, in a frantic and he's just like, you know, your people are
15:33
here now. First of all, they weren't my
15:35
people because I made the introduction.
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I didn't even know, right. And he's like, you know, they're
15:40
saying that they have product, but they won't give it to me
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unless, you know, I come up with all this money.
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And I'm saying to myself, well, you told them you could, you
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know, So I end up renting a car, going to New York, meeting with
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them. And I'm just like, look, you
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know, I don't have that kind of money for this.
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But if you get it to where I need you to bring it, I know
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that I can move it. And they did.
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And then that's how I found myself in the middle of selling
16:06
drugs. Wow.
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And and I the way I understand it is Topeka, it ended up we we
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got wrapped up into a conspiracy issue, but you were given
16:21
probation on this first go around.
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Is that how that all kind of played out?
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Yeah, so the first, then you got around, you know, I was, I'm
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doing all this stuff. You know, there's a a big story
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in between. We don't have enough time next
16:36
time, but I end up getting arrested.
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I end up getting arrested with him at the.
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Now mind you, this was cocaine that I was involved in selling
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and they found heroin in my house.
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They found heroin, they found a gun and I think some bullets
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that's somewhere else in the house.
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And so because the apartment was in my name, although none of it
17:05
was mine, you know, and the apartment was in my name and all
17:10
that, obviously I'm the one that's held liable because at
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the time he was just like when it came for his bail hearing.
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So, OK, they arrested both of us.
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They gave us bail, gave me a bail.
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My parents came and bailed me out.
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Then he had a bail. He had to bail himself out,
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which the attorney has stated he should have done it before that
17:35
Monday because it was on a weekend because otherwise they
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thought that they would raise his bail because he had been
17:40
from New York. Come to find out, he end up
17:43
having a detainer from a case that was like 20 years before.
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It was like a bunch of mess, like things about this guy that
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now I'm learning through this. But when we went to his
17:52
arraignment and I'm thinking at that time he would just take,
17:56
you know, responsibility. He was like his argument with
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the lawyer that I actually paid for.
18:03
Let's be clear. He said that he was visiting a
18:06
friend from out of town and he was at the wrong place at the
18:10
wrong time. So this was the argument that he
18:12
had made. And obviously, I was completely
18:16
shocked because I'm like, first of all, you had things in my
18:19
house and I didn't even know that were in there.
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You know, I would have never kept anything in my house.
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And so he was doing all this stuff unbeknownst to me.
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And so then, you know, I left him alone.
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At that point. I was just like, you know, when
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I saw that for my own eyes, I would have never believed it.
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I was just like, you know, that's it.
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We both get charged. It ends up where the judge, he
18:42
did finally accept responsibility, told the judge I
18:45
had nothing to do with anything and the judge found favor with
18:49
me. The judge was just like, you
18:50
know, at that time during my sentencing, I pled and I pled it
18:56
was a conspiracy. And I think aiding and abetting
19:00
I think it was. And they, it was like A5 to a 5
19:05
to 20 year range I believe is what it was at the time.
19:09
It was the first case. And so he, the judge said that
19:13
sentencing that my Co defendant had accepted full responsibility
19:17
and he didn't think that I needed to do any jail time.
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So he sentenced me to, I believe it was three years of probation
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and told me in 18 months to come back in front of him and that he
19:29
would reconsider taking me off early, which he did.
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Wow. And the thing to Topeka, I was
19:38
wondering when you're telling me all this is that you've been
19:41
this wonderful star child to your parents.
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Did they know anything about this before this happened?
19:49
Or was this like a just Oh my gosh, what has Topeka done?
19:55
Everything. Well, first, it wasn't even that
19:57
they knew nothing. Nobody, my friends, nobody knew
19:59
what I was involved in. But it was like not what did
20:04
Topeka do is what did he do to Topeka?
20:08
Right. So it was you're dating this guy
20:10
who's older. How did this guy get you caught
20:14
up in this? Right, Because there's no way
20:18
that my daughter would have gotten herself involved in this,
20:22
right? Which in honesty, I did.
20:25
You know, I would never even put it on him.
20:28
You know, I made the choice of decision to go do all the things
20:30
that I did, irrespective of him introducing me to what this was.
20:37
Obviously I knew what it was because I knew guys who were,
20:39
you know, selling drugs, and I dated guys before him who had.
20:43
But, yeah, but that's what their thought was.
20:47
And it wasn't like I corrected them, you know?
20:50
And then I just was, you know. Right.
20:55
And then and then we Fast forward, you get away from
20:58
everything kind of scared straight into this thing of not
21:02
being involved in that. And then you get a phone call
21:06
what is 6 or seven years later and it's a one time deal And you
21:09
think I'm going to do that? What what were you thinking,
21:14
Topeka? I was thinking, I was thinking,
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wait a minute, these are the same people that I dealt with
21:23
before, you know, they weren't the police, you know, and knew
21:29
how much drugs I had sold with them in the past.
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So I'm like, OK, I can make another connection, do this one
21:37
run, get the money that I needed.
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I wanted to, I had a business and I wanted to scale that
21:43
business and I wanted to open another business.
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And so I was like, I can do this, make this quick money and
21:50
I can go on about my business and they set me up.
21:58
So then this is a different deal because this is, this is a
22:01
federal thing. You're looking at real time what
22:08
goes through your mic and I don't think that you're giving
22:10
bail this time. Is that correct?
22:12
That is correct. So the first case was it was a
22:15
federal case as well. And so I remember getting there
22:18
to my arraignment and the marshals were like, wait a
22:21
minute, like you swam with the sharks before and got away with
22:25
it and you're backswimming with the sharks again.
22:28
And it really hit me because I'm like, I guess you're right.
22:31
You know, I, I never anticipated a million years that, you know,
22:35
that I was getting set up, obviously, but all the signs
22:38
were there, I would say. But when I got there in the
22:44
beginning, I thought no big deal.
22:46
You know, there were no drugs exchanged.
22:49
This was only a conversation I would bail out like last time,
22:57
you know, all the things that I'm thinking.
22:58
And the judge had another plan for me.
23:02
And it completely shocked me because I didn't realize one,
23:07
that I could be put in prison for a conspiracy, you know,
23:13
being set up when I actually I didn't even, it was like
23:16
entrapment. It would have been considered
23:18
entrapment had not had a prior drug conviction because that's
23:22
exactly what it was. But because I had a prior drug
23:25
conviction for the law, it states that you're predisposed
23:29
to do this crime. And so, you know, I was like,
23:32
well, if you have a person who's a drug dealer and you offer them
23:35
from the same people that you worked for before, like 50 kilos
23:39
of drugs, again for free, what is a drug dealer going to do?
23:42
Like, you know, typically it's so how was that not considered
23:47
entrapment? But you know, we know the law
23:50
and the law is flawed. And so that's was that.
23:55
So when you get into jail and, and you're being held there
24:00
really as a lot of people are you being held to either plea
24:05
or, or fight a case because you're, you're not out on bail
24:09
now, you're in jail. You you had some experiences in
24:13
there with that? Yeah, And I, what was a lot of
24:19
experience, you know, one, I was in denial at first still and
24:24
thinking that, you know, I would be able to beat this case.
24:27
And my lawyer kept saying, you know, Topeka, you're not above
24:29
the law, you're not going to beat this case.
24:31
You're going to do time, you know, all these things.
24:36
And then I started having a spiritual kind of awakening.
24:41
You know, first I was not speaking to the other women who
24:45
were inside because, you know, my friends and other people
24:49
would be like, well, you're not like them, don't talk to them.
24:51
And so I didn't. And, you know, I didn't think I
24:54
was like them. You know, a lot of the women who
24:57
were there in the county jail were struggling in their
25:00
substance misuse, you know, different education level,
25:05
socioeconomic background, different life experiences.
25:09
And so we were not alike. But at that time, in my own, I
25:15
guess, act arrogance, I just felt that I was better than
25:19
them. And there's no way that I would
25:21
be, you know, what is there for us to talk about?
25:25
You know, they don't know anything.
25:27
You know, that was just where I was at that time.
25:29
And as I started to, once I realized I wasn't going anywhere
25:34
for some time and I started to selfishly engage in programming
25:39
just to give myself something to do because I was locked in
25:42
myself for, you know, hours a day, 21 to 23 hours, because
25:46
there's a federal detainee. They kept you separate than the
25:51
then the people from the state or the county.
25:52
And so we were in, I could not be out at the same time that
25:56
they were out basically. And so except when programming.
26:02
And so when I started going to these NA and a A classes and
26:06
started actually listening and then asking questions, they
26:13
changed my life because I started realizing that, you
26:16
know, all the things that I thought prior why people did
26:20
drugs. The fact that, you know, while I
26:23
might have sold a lot of drugs, I never used drugs because I
26:26
knew the impacts of drugs. Had I thought the same.
26:30
If a person did drugs, it's because they wanted to do drugs
26:33
and nobody was forcing them to do it.
26:35
Like they had to take the act of going to buy the drugs.
26:38
So who's, you know, until a sister told me, you know, the
26:42
reason why she started doing drugs is because her dad gave
26:44
her drugs for the first time. He was raping her and gave it to
26:49
her and told her to take it basically to shut up so the pain
26:52
will go away and it completely changed my life.
26:56
Wow, it's deep step you you then Topeka decide you're going to
27:04
plea and I know that had to been like you know, you're going
27:11
whenever you're you're doing a plea bargaining, you're talking
27:13
about conspiracy. There's so many ranges of years
27:17
that they can throw at you. Did you know what you were
27:20
looking at year wise and sentence wise?
27:25
Well, if I went to trial, I was looking at a minimum of 20
27:28
years, one, because I had the prior federal conviction and
27:32
2:00 because of the amount of drugs in the conspiracy I was
27:35
being. I was being charged with
27:38
conspiracy, conspiracy to sell 80 kilos of cocaine or more.
27:44
So that's where I made in the guideline chart.
27:49
Then when I pled, I thought because even though I had the
27:52
prior conviction, I still, I still qualify for what they call
27:57
a safety valve because it was like still recognized like it
28:01
was like a category one. I didn't spend any time in jail
28:04
before. Like I met all the criteria.
28:06
I accepted full responsibility. So I thought the judge would
28:10
give me a downward departure, which means that, you know, from
28:15
the sentence, the judge would be able to, at that time, not give
28:20
me the mandatory minimum. He could go under the mandatory
28:22
minimum and sentence me to whatever.
28:24
And really, I thought I might get a year and a day.
28:27
I might get up to five years. That's where I thought I would
28:30
fall in the range. I had done about 11 months at
28:33
that time. And we're programming.
28:35
I was like, I'll be out like in at least a year to three years,
28:39
you know, So I had went through this understanding that this is
28:43
what I was going to have to do. And this was basically my debt
28:47
for all of the things that I've done in my past, you know, But a
28:51
sentencing, the judge denied my downward departure request and
28:58
sentenced me to 130 months. What was going through your mind
29:03
when you heard that? So Topeka, the judge says 130
29:06
months. Obviously that's not what was in
29:07
your mind. That's not what you were
29:10
thinking. What what was your reaction to
29:14
130 months? Well, I completely, if I could,
29:18
if I would have been able to pass out that time, I would have
29:21
just dropped to the ground. I really thought I was going to
29:26
do like a year and a day maybe because I'm just like, yeah, I
29:31
was set up OK. I had to plead guilty.
29:35
Yes, I actually was conspiring, you know, so I can take
29:38
accountability, but how can they give me 10 years when they're
29:41
the ones that pulled me into this, right?
29:44
So I just couldn't. And I cried and I asked was I
29:47
able to say anything to my parents?
29:49
And I turned around, you know, to my family and friends who
29:51
were there. And I went to my mom and I was
29:54
crying and I'm like, I'm so sorry to my mom and dad.
29:57
And my mother grabbed my face and it was like, our nose is
30:00
here on my nose. And she was like, Topeka, if you
30:03
weren't around the people that you around doing the things that
30:06
you were doing, you would not be here.
30:08
So get yourself together. And I sucked up those tears and
30:13
that snotty nose. And I was like, she's right, you
30:17
know. And so I just went on back, you
30:20
know, and started crying again, you know, obviously.
30:24
And all the women, when I got back to the jail, they were shot
30:27
because they thought that I was going to be gone, you know, And
30:31
then they whisked me off to to the next prison, Wausau.
30:34
And I started, you know, my federal journey.
30:39
Yeah, and I mean, I remember you talking about the a lot of
30:43
people can avoid the, you know, being being transported as a
30:50
prisoner is one of the worst things.
30:53
And you, you speak about, you know, being shackled, you know,
30:56
on con air, you know, where the women were in the front, the men
31:00
in the back. And, and you know, you, you had
31:03
to walk down that aisle shackled and the men were groping you.
31:07
And you were like looking at the person who's, I think she might
31:11
have been a female Marshall. And, and, and they said you,
31:15
they said they told you to pick up, not to say anything to them.
31:19
But the groping was, and I remember the story, just, it was
31:22
just so gripping the story. And you went back in the, the,
31:25
the bathroom and the, and the plane and cried that, you know,
31:28
this is, this is my world that I'm living in right here.
31:33
And I couldn't, one, I didn't understand how another woman
31:36
could allow that to happen to another woman.
31:40
And two, you know, it was, I had so many emotions, you know, one,
31:46
obviously you're being violated, you know, by men that you don't
31:52
know, you know, and the other end of it is like, damn, these
31:57
men probably haven't seen a woman or touched a woman in
32:00
decades. You know, so it's just like you
32:02
feel bad for them while you're feeling bad for yourself.
32:06
You're angry, but you can't say anything because you're told you
32:09
can't. You know, you're being treated
32:12
like shit and like if it if you don't matter.
32:17
And I just, and I just even throughout my entire time, there
32:21
were a few, you know, good eggs when I say officers, you know,
32:26
but for the most part, I just don't know how people work in
32:28
corrections. I just don't, you know, because
32:32
they're actually working. They're living in the same
32:34
conditions that you. Are well, they're going to
32:36
prison every day, 100% they're they're literally we're living
32:39
there, but they're coming there every day to live with us.
32:43
That's right. I can't imagine.
32:44
I I never could imagine that. And I would be mad too.
32:49
Oh, gosh, yeah, absolutely. Let's take a break there because
32:53
I want when we get back, I want to talk about your time in
32:56
prison and and all the things that happened once you got out
33:00
of prison through re entry and how you become so big in this
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is sponsored by the White Collar Support Group, the world's first
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support group devoted to people navigating the white collar
33:45
criminal justice system. I'm a member of the White Collar
33:48
Support Group and I can tell you this is a bunch of people who
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free. Whether you're just starting
33:54
your journey or you made it through to the other side, this
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33:59
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34:02
prisonest.org. Prison start org start here.
34:06
OK Topeka. So you get to prison and you
34:10
know you're going to be there for a while.
34:14
What are your thoughts going on? Well, at this point now, you
34:20
know, after I get my, I guess my mind right for a moment, you
34:25
know, it's just like, all right, God, what is it that you want to
34:29
show me? What if you know, I'm, I'm here,
34:32
I'm open, I'm, you know, willing servant of you.
34:35
You know, I felt at that time, while man said 10 years, 10
34:39
months, God had a different plan.
34:42
Like I knew that I knew that, you know, people like you're not
34:45
supposed to be here. Like I knew though, while I may
34:48
have been guilty, that I was not going to be in prison for 10
34:53
years, like I knew that without a shadow of a doubt.
34:55
So I knew God had a bigger plan. It was something else that I
34:58
needed to do. And so I went in with that
35:00
mentality every day I was working toward when I was going
35:04
home and the next day was when I was being released.
35:07
So I always, you know, just really smiled and I was really
35:11
nice to people. And because I I learned a lot in
35:15
that first eleven months in the county jail, you know.
35:18
Yeah. And I would just ask a lot of
35:20
questions. You know, I mean, you're not
35:21
supposed to ask people in prison why they're there, but I did
35:25
because I wanted to know like what led people there because
35:29
nobody would ever think I would be there.
35:31
You know, even in in the same little uniform.
35:34
They used to call me Gucci in the county jail because I used
35:38
to walk with my collar popped up and you know, I had I had the
35:43
wastage to my little uniform. So you know I my.
35:47
If anybody watches your, if anybody watches to pick his Ted
35:50
Talk, they can tell she's styling, she knows what she's
35:52
doing when they're closed. And that was a long time ago.
35:55
So, you know, you could imagine, right?
35:59
So, you know, it was for me. And what am I supposed to learn
36:03
through this journey? This is the only time in my life
36:06
that I have to really focus on me.
36:09
I'm not paying bills, you know, I don't have to, you know, take
36:12
care of my home. I technically don't have to wash
36:16
my clothes, don't have to cook any food, don't have to do
36:18
anything except worry about me. And so I just looked at that
36:22
time and I, I never looked at it as it was a place that was my
36:26
home like I'd never did had a routine.
36:30
Meaning when it came to taking a shower, I never used the same
36:33
shower twice because I didn't want it to feel like, you know,
36:37
because people would be like, this is my you.
36:38
Don't want to get institutionalized?
36:39
Yeah, which is so easy to do. So easy because you're doing the
36:43
same thing every day. I mean, my routine was getting
36:45
up, praying, meditating, getting counted, going to the track for
36:52
an hour, you know, taking a shower, going to prayer circle,
36:56
going to work. You're like, you know, then
36:58
during lunch, I would go back to the track for an hour, come back
37:01
to work. After work, I would go back to
37:04
the track. Like I was doing things just to
37:06
keep my mental health, my spiritual, my body in shape
37:10
because I was trying to take myself out of there every day.
37:15
My friends would send me postcards when they travel to
37:18
Take Me Out of there. You know, magazines I would get,
37:22
I would read different things. You know, I did work whatever
37:26
that looked like while I was there, but I just decided to use
37:32
that time to take care of me. Topeka I think that's such a big
37:36
tip. You know, this, this, this show
37:38
goes into 1100 prisons And and I think that the idea that you
37:42
don't become part of that, that you, you still become, you know,
37:46
I was always worried about, you know, becoming prison Brent.
37:48
I didn't even know what prison Brent was.
37:50
I just didn't want to be him. And one of the things I did was,
37:54
is I, my daughter's, my youngest daughter sent me a calendar
37:58
every year and it, it had the pictures of the family,
38:02
whatever. And I, I would write in there
38:04
the win for the day in my, my little calendar and, and I would
38:09
try to find a win for the day. And then, you know, you think,
38:11
well, how can you find a win for the day in prison?
38:13
Well, you know, you maybe you had a really good conversation
38:16
with your kids on the phone or maybe you got forklift certified
38:19
at the food at whatever it was. And then if I had a bad day, I
38:23
would let myself have a no good, very bad day all the way down.
38:26
You know, my toes bad and I would write that in the box.
38:29
But my my thing was to because I wouldn't let myself have two
38:34
boxes of bad because I knew that if I had two boxes of bad that
38:38
could turn into a week, it could turn into a month.
38:40
And then I, you know, had lost myself into whatever, you know,
38:43
prison brand is. And I think your statement of
38:46
not getting caught up and becoming that prison
38:53
institutionalized feel, but you kept yourself open to the escape
38:58
of your mind, keeping your mind active and and continue to be
39:02
Topeka. They don't take your mind.
39:04
So that's the one thing you got to really work on to make sure
39:07
that you don't lose that. You have to.
39:12
It's so hard because it's so easy if you're not connected.
39:17
You know, I, I, I, I always would feel so bad for people who
39:21
didn't have family, who had been in so long because their family
39:25
is transitioned or the relationships that they had were
39:29
not healthy outside. So they didn't have people to
39:31
come visit. And I was really fortunate and
39:34
blessed. You know, I often say I was
39:36
privileged before prison. I was prison during prison.
39:39
You know, I visit every week, You know, I maintain good
39:44
friend, healthy friendships, you know, my friends that are still
39:47
friends today. And you see it.
39:51
And so people become what's inside because that becomes your
39:56
family, you know, Now don't get me wrong, I build great
39:58
relationships to people who are inside because these are people
40:01
you're going to be around and see every single day.
40:04
You know, you don't even see your mom that much, you know, So
40:09
it's like. Hard to explain really.
40:11
It is, you know, and for some, this is the only family that you
40:16
have because of the relationships that you left
40:19
behind or lost during that time, because you're, it's, you can
40:23
forget people. It's easy to forget.
40:26
And that's the, the, the unfortunate reality of
40:30
incarceration. It basically kidnap, kidnaps you
40:34
from the street and then keeps you locked away in a cage where
40:38
you're out of sight. You know, you're that's right,
40:41
hundreds of miles away from anybody who knows you typically,
40:45
and people can't afford to take flights, trains, drive hotels,
40:53
to travel across the country to see someone for a few hours
40:57
every single week. So it is incredibly difficult
41:01
and hard on families. But while you're there,
41:04
irrespective of what that situation is, you can't allow it
41:08
to do what it's designed to do, which is break you like you've
41:11
already been broken through that process of pretrial going
41:16
through, you know, whatever your life was that led you to
41:18
incarceration, right? But once you get to prison, then
41:22
it's just like, what can I do with this time that I'll never
41:25
have again in my life to focus on healing, right?
41:29
Because and that's something that comes from within.
41:32
That's not going to happen externally, you know, and try to
41:36
make the best out of your situation.
41:38
You, you can find gratitude and everything.
41:42
You know, I don't believe prisons are places that anybody
41:44
should be. It's a cage.
41:46
You don't lock our animals up for the period and amount of
41:49
time that you keep people in cages in prisons.
41:52
It does not heal people. It's a dark place.
41:55
It was the most traumatic experience that I've had in my
41:59
life and think it will be even from a survivor of domestic
42:04
violence of sexual assault. Prison was worse than all of
42:09
that put together. And I was in a camp and I was
42:12
there three years, but still, it was the worst experience.
42:17
And so, you know, as I think about people's mental health and
42:22
I hear people were locked in the shoe for years at a time, I'm
42:28
just like every single person that got comes out of prison has
42:32
PTSD, whether you realize it or not.
42:37
And you know, some are go through more severe mental
42:40
health issues and others. And I'm grateful to God that I
42:43
was able to be sustained mentally, emotionally and
42:45
spiritually because of my own practices and the love of my
42:50
friends and my family. But it is harmful, you know, on
42:59
so many level. And there's nothing good about
43:02
it. You know, when I hear people
43:03
like prison changed my life, I'm like, yeah, I'm sure it did, you
43:06
know. But you know, there's, there's
43:09
nothing good like we, we should not find anything good in
43:12
incarceration, you know, period. 100% I've I've I've so in
43:18
agreement with that in reading about you Topeka that that there
43:25
was some you wrote a letter to the judge and I think it changed
43:30
things. And I was curious like, how did,
43:33
how did you even know how to tend to do that to make that
43:37
that effort? I would say God, right?
43:41
Like, because everybody told me I was crazy.
43:44
My my lawyer said like, do what you want to do, but it nothing's
43:47
going to work. Yeah, I had a friend that was in
43:51
the law library all the time and they had this this thing called
43:55
the Booker variance, which kind of LED a line with what was
43:59
going on with me being I could have gotten the downward
44:03
departure at sentencing, but I didn't, right.
44:06
Because I qualified for all of these.
44:08
I think it's called the 3553, if I remember correctly.
44:13
And so I was like, you know what, I'm going to take my shot.
44:15
Like my spirit kept telling me to write the judge, Write the
44:18
judge. And so, you know, I said
44:21
something to my lawyer 1st. And my lawyer was like, Topeka,
44:23
you know, you're not above the law.
44:24
He said it again. You're going to do this time.
44:28
And but who keeps telling you to do this?
44:30
I was like, God. He's like, well, I don't know
44:32
what kind of God you serve, but you go ahead and write your
44:34
little letter. And so I did and I just wrote to
44:38
the judge and I, I'm, I'm like, where is that letter?
44:41
Actually, the judge, I did get an opportunity to meet with them
44:44
a few years ago. So I'm going to ask if he has
44:47
that somewhere because I actually would love to read it
44:50
again. But I, I know that I shared with
44:53
him just the experience that I had been through my plans of
44:56
what I wanted to do when I came out.
44:59
It was clear God spoke to me while I was there.
45:02
And I got called in the office and then my case manager was
45:07
like, you judge, you know, you have a, you have a sentence
45:10
reduction. And I was like, what?
45:13
You know, like, I didn't even believe it myself.
45:15
And then she was like, and you qualify for the drug program.
45:19
And then I asked her, well, what's that?
45:20
And she shared what RDAP was. And I'm like, well, I don't do
45:23
drugs. What am I going to drug?
45:25
And she was like, look, this is the only program in the prison
45:28
system that you can get a year off your sentence.
45:30
And I was like, well, sign me up.
45:32
I'm going. Sign me up.
45:33
I'll go through that, yeah. And I went and I did RDAP and
45:38
learned a bunch. Y'all learned a lot of things
45:41
through there. I got the we're.
45:44
Both rdapers. Of all Dappers, they did not
45:47
make me a senior God, I was pissed off about that.
45:51
Kept trying to get people to pull me out.
45:53
You know, all the things. But they were trying to break
45:57
me. They try to break me and all
45:59
that. But I made it through and I did
46:02
learn a lot. I say I I learned a lot just
46:04
about, you know, how people think.
46:06
It's a way how I, you know, I'm able.
46:08
I still use my little RSA tool when I'm feeling so tight away.
46:13
So I will say it was, you know, one of the helpful tools that I
46:16
learned during my journey. And then a law passed all drugs,
46:20
Midas too, and it qualified me for 15 months off my sentence.
46:26
And because of RDAP, I was given six months early, halfway house
46:31
for early release. And they called me in the case
46:33
manager's office and told me I was going home in two weeks.
46:37
And I was like, wow, exactly. I was like, OK, God, I'm ready,
46:42
you know? And I didn't even call my mom.
46:44
I called one of my best friends and I told her what I wanted to
46:47
wear. And so she got it for me and
46:49
shipped it there. How about the clothes?
46:55
All about I got to step out in style, right?
46:58
So, yeah, well. Let's talk, let's talk about
47:02
because you are a a rock star in the re entry movement.
47:07
And I think you know what we just talked about how tough
47:12
prison is, how tough it is before you go to prison, you
47:15
know, being investigated and going through that process and
47:18
the whole unknown of that. And then you've got the unknown
47:21
of going to prison and having to figure out how to live in that
47:23
world that you didn't plan on living in.
47:25
I think Topeka, you are in the arena that is everybody's
47:32
biggest surprise is that everybody's so excited to get
47:38
out of prison and get their second start, their second
47:41
opportunity. And all of a sudden there's
47:43
40,000 plus barriers that come at us and they're like, Oh no,
47:49
what happened? What, how do I get back into
47:51
society? How do I get back?
47:53
How do I get a house? How do I get a banking account?
47:55
How do I get a job? And, and these things don't
47:59
really come to fruition until you get out and you're like, Oh
48:05
my God, I'm not getting back into society the way I wanted to
48:07
because I can't do this and I can't do that.
48:11
When you got out, you were such a force, such an early force in
48:16
this movement. Why did you do it?
48:21
Well, God, you know, I always say I was, I really meditated
48:26
and prayed a lot when I was inside.
48:28
And so I had a clear path. So like anybody who's listening,
48:31
who's inside, take that time to figure out what you want to do
48:35
like and just be still. And when it comes to you, you
48:40
know, whatever it may be, do it, you know, because now if you've
48:44
gone through prison, you can do anything.
48:46
You know, I'm a firm believer that and so when I got out, you
48:49
know, I was fortunate enough that I was able to go back and
48:52
live with my parents. So I had a safe place to live,
48:56
right. That was that's number one for
48:58
everybody. From there I had friends and
49:00
mentors and so I was able to get a job quickly because one of my
49:06
friends hired me, you know, in a little part time job to Get Me
49:09
Out the halfway house because I was at the halfway house first.
49:12
And then I was able to go home. And then at the seminary, New
49:16
York Theological Seminary, my mentor, which everyone should
49:19
get while they're inside to find a mentor.
49:23
I was able to be a teacher's aide there.
49:25
So it allowed me to be out of the halfway house from I think
49:28
it was like 7 in the morning. I was able to leave and I didn't
49:31
have to get back until 11 at night.
49:33
So that was, you know, allowing me to be out.
49:37
So I started to be able to get some normalcy because it was
49:39
hard being inside of a prison for three years and, you know,
49:42
around all women for the most part, you know, now I'm
49:44
interacting with men and that felt different, you know, all
49:48
the things. And so from there, I began to
49:52
just put my vision in place. And I first went on, what's
49:56
that, Squarespace and got the domain name for the
49:59
organization. I knew the name of the
50:01
organization. I did that.
50:03
But I was a little, I was computer savvy, you know,
50:06
anyway, so I was able to do little things on my own.
50:11
And then I just started, first I started reaching out to people
50:14
who had been in with me who are home because I wanted to do work
50:20
in this space, right? So I started to connect with
50:23
people and then they started sharing like, hey, Columbia
50:26
University has a program. You should check that out.
50:29
Or, you know, there's a woman who's doing work similar.
50:32
So what you want to do, check her out.
50:34
And I started to do that, you know, tell people who I was.
50:39
And those are the things that I actually did.
50:41
And so because of that, it was like I had to just really,
50:47
really hunker down and black out the noise.
50:50
You know, that ex-boyfriend that I got in trouble with, he
50:53
started trying to rear his little head, you know, but God
50:57
would not allow that to happen. So I had to shut it down.
51:00
You know, that's another thing. Unless you're married before you
51:03
go in or have established a real healthy relationship with
51:08
someone while you're in, you should not get in a relationship
51:13
of any kind because it is a distraction.
51:17
We know that like it is a distraction, you know, And so I
51:20
had to curb that, you know, and just stay focused.
51:25
And while I worked for Instacarts, which I hate
51:29
shopping for groceries, I used Instacart today.
51:34
You know, I did things to keep me humble, you know, I laughed
51:37
and I was like, I was making like $14.00 an hour.
51:40
I made more when I was working for my parents when I was 10,
51:43
you know, But at the end, I had to remain humble.
51:47
And so I just did things, you know, to kids.
51:49
I'm like, hey, I just was in prison making $9 a month.
51:52
Like, you know, So what? Let me do that, you know?
51:55
So I think it's looking like your freedom.
51:59
There's nothing in life that's more important than that, you
52:03
know? And if you can, like I said,
52:06
survive incarceration and come home looking for the job that's
52:11
going to pay you, 6 figures right out the door.
52:13
While it has happened for some people, that wasn't my journey,
52:16
right? Nor is it the average
52:18
individual's journey. And so you cannot be arrogant.
52:24
You have to remain humble. You will get Nos and that's
52:28
fine. You know, you got a lot of them
52:30
when you in prison, you know, So continue to push forward.
52:33
So that's all I did. I just kept kept going and I
52:38
started going until, you know, I was like, all right, well, I
52:41
knew I knew how to speak. I wanted to share my experience
52:47
and I started creating things where I saw gaps and that's just
52:51
how I started. I just, I try to find the
52:54
solution that I believe that I need to create and I'm always
52:58
like, I believe God. There's no original idea.
53:01
I think we all got to impart different ideas and many of us
53:05
and whoever gets to the door first is just, you know, how it
53:08
gets done. And so there were other
53:10
organizations that did re entry work.
53:12
And so I would reach out, you know, I would see the funders
53:15
that I will pull 990's look and see whose funders were there.
53:19
I would then reach out to those funders and just say, hey, I'm
53:22
starting an organization. I saw that you funded a similar
53:25
one. Can we talk?
53:27
I just want to learn. And people like that, they like
53:30
to teach, they like to share. And, you know, I just did that
53:34
and I began to grow and build. And you know, that's how it
53:38
happened. It's really something to peek at
53:41
because I think people listening, the, the biggest
53:45
nugget, a wizard that you've given is just do it, get out
53:48
there and do it. And, and if you have a passion
53:50
about it, research what's around it.
53:52
And I love the other thing that you do is you're not trying to
53:55
reinvent the wheel. There's people out there doing
53:57
stuff. You're finding the gaps and
54:00
there's so many gaps that you've been able to fill these
54:03
different gaps. And each time you've done it,
54:05
you've been able to create more, you know, all the different
54:08
things that you do. You know, you're into housing,
54:11
which, you know, you and I were talking before this, we got on
54:15
here today is just, you know, housing is such a big deal for
54:17
people that don't have any connections that I had have have
54:20
a family or friends or whatever that how do you get how do you
54:22
get a place to live? But you've gotten into that and,
54:26
and, and the places that you've gotten into are are so many
54:31
different places that are needed.
54:32
You know, Detroit and Miami and New Orleans and all the
54:35
different places that you're in. And then and then you're into
54:39
education and all these different things.
54:42
Where do you see you've done so much?
54:46
And the other thing I wanted to talk to you about before I was
54:49
going to ask you that question. So you wouldn't walk in and out
54:51
of the White House. You know, and you've you've been
54:55
what in the world does that feel like as as somebody that's an ex
54:59
felon? You know, you and I were in
55:01
federal prison and you're just walking out of the in and out of
55:04
the White House and people are wanting to know what Topeka Sam
55:07
is thinking. That's got to be, that's got to
55:10
fill you up. Yeah, you know, it, it's, it
55:14
hasn't been until recently that I realized even like what a big
55:18
deal that is, you know? And I think it's because of how
55:24
I, what was instilled in me as a child, right?
55:26
Like I am, I am worthy and deserve it to be in any space,
55:33
in anywhere. And your gifts will bring you
55:35
there, right? And I think that for me, I've
55:39
been invited into certain spaces because one, I know how to act
55:44
in different rooms, right? Like, let's start there.
55:47
You know, I don't come into spaces even when I may not agree
55:52
with the way people are showing up with trying to scold people.
55:58
I'm more about how do I teach people about things that they
56:02
may not understand because I was on the other side of it.
56:06
I was a person that looked at people the way people look at
56:08
me, you know, until I became one of those people.
56:13
And so you can't judge people based on what they know.
56:16
You can only share what you know in order to get people to
56:19
change. So it's incredibly fulfilling to
56:25
know that I can bring a group of women who've experienced
56:30
incarceration into the White House because I had the courage
56:35
to ask when a person asks me, right?
56:38
Like, I wanted to create the space to invite other people in
56:42
with me because we're stronger together, you know, and we get
56:47
more done and accomplished together.
56:49
I created a lot on my own, but when I have the right team, I
56:53
create so much more, you know? And Topeka, the the for you
56:58
saying that there is something that's on anybody can see.
57:01
It's on YouTube and it's, it was a tribute to you.
57:06
I think it was your fifth year of freedom.
57:09
Oh yeah. And I there is like anybody and
57:12
everybody that is in this space that is thanking you for helping
57:18
them. And that is that to me.
57:23
That is your that's your superpower.
57:26
That's, that's, that's been the thing that's gotten you to where
57:29
you're at. You've been, it's not been about
57:31
you. You've you've ridden the tidal
57:34
wave of helping so many different people in so many
57:37
different spaces. And I saw that I was looking at
57:40
that last night. That's how you know if you're
57:43
making an impact is if these people are coming back at you
57:47
and saying thank you for helping me.
57:49
That's. Exactly.
57:50
Right, that's it. You know, we're here, I believe
57:54
just from my, you know, spiritual upbringing, we're here
57:56
to serve, you know, and that is why I believe I'm a servant
58:01
leader. And when I am blessed enough to
58:04
meet a person and a person and trust me enough to support them,
58:09
then I'm doing what's right. And I want to see a person do
58:14
even more than me because I know that I've seated that right.
58:19
Like so people so often are just like me and me.
58:21
I I, I, and I was hurt at one point in my life, you know,
58:25
don't get me wrong. But where I am now, it's like,
58:29
no, I am so proud when I see my sisters being able to reach
58:34
certain heights and brothers to do certain things in ways that,
58:38
you know, I have it because I know that I see that, that I
58:43
know that a lot of times I've even given people the courage to
58:47
take it a step further because of what they've seen me be able
58:49
to do. And while I did not own that and
58:53
someone told me recently a friend and new business partner
58:56
was like Topeka, you have to own like your greatness, like you
59:00
are so humble when you you know, I'm like tell you about yourself
59:03
and I don't, you know, kind of pop my collar.
59:07
You know, I believe like so praise is no praise, but I can't
59:12
you look, I know I have literally since 2015, every
59:17
single every single thing that has had anything to do with
59:20
women. I have seated everything and no
59:23
one can take that from me. You know I said so Nobody.
59:26
Could take it from you. And you could erase the history.
59:30
Yeah, you know, every single thing.
59:34
And, and there's so many things to look at of in just a short
59:38
amount of time. I mean the Alice Johnson story
59:41
just on its own, not take away all this mountain of stuff that
59:46
you've done just that alone that that Alice Johnson was serving a
59:51
life sentence and you put together a film that caught the
59:53
attention to so many and you and Kim Kardashian got her out of
59:57
prison and now she's the pardons are that should be a movie, but
1:00:04
that's just you know the reason I I was so.
1:00:07
Excited to interview you is that's just a little piece of of
1:00:11
all the different things that have happened.
1:00:12
And you don't know that until you see all these different
1:00:15
people on that tribute coming back and back and back again
1:00:18
talking about what what you've had for them.
1:00:21
What do you think, Topeka? Are you just going to stay in
1:00:24
this space or do you see yourself go?
1:00:27
What do you see yourself doing? Well, I mean, I, I, I am a
1:00:33
social entrepreneur, right? So everything that I do will
1:00:38
have some type of intertwining with the system, right?
1:00:45
But where I am in my life now, like I've done a lot of good.
1:00:50
And so now I want to do well too, right?
1:00:53
So I'm like, you can do good and do well.
1:00:56
So, you know, and the things that I'm creating now, while it
1:01:00
is still going to have social impact to it, they're for profit
1:01:04
ventures, right? Because I'm like, and it's time
1:01:08
for Topeka to make some money. You know, it's time for me to
1:01:13
build my legacy and it's time for me to be able to take care
1:01:18
of my family in ways that will last generations.
1:01:24
I love that. And so that's where I am now.
1:01:26
So, you know, the newest company is called Epic Health PBC and
1:01:32
it's a telehealth platform, telehealth, telemedicine and
1:01:37
pharmacy. And so while again, it offers,
1:01:41
you know, mental health support, I am going to pilot in prisons
1:01:46
so that, you know, for me it was like, well, wait a minute, If a
1:01:49
person is able to get a legal visit and see their attorney,
1:01:55
whether virtually or why can't people pick their own mental
1:01:59
health provider? Why?
1:02:00
Can't they? See them?
1:02:01
Why can't they have access to that?
1:02:03
So I looked and searched and I didn't find anything like it.
1:02:08
So I created it, right? So that's who I am, right?
1:02:12
And so from there, you know, I was blessed to build a
1:02:15
partnership with the pharmacy. And so we're able to make sure
1:02:20
that people have continuum of care from when they get out of
1:02:23
prison, they have this 90 days that people either relapse or
1:02:27
their health deteriorates or they end up back in prison
1:02:30
because they start using. And so now we have an
1:02:33
opportunity where we can be a fulfillment of pharmacy
1:02:36
fulfillment partner of prisons and people and probation and
1:02:40
other organizations to make sure that people have that continuity
1:02:43
of care. And so while we know the
1:02:46
healthcare industry is a trillion dollar industry, right,
1:02:50
and there are all these different areas to plug and
1:02:53
play, I said, well, wait a minute.
1:02:55
There's no need for me to leave money on the table.
1:02:57
I could actually create a business that could generate
1:03:01
money, but also still do good for people.
1:03:04
So that's the newest thing. It's launching next month, So
1:03:07
look out for that. I think that might be a billion
1:03:10
dollar idea, right? There it definitely is.
1:03:12
I'm excited. It's a big one.
1:03:16
It is a big one. I'm excited.
1:03:20
I always ask people on the show, you know, with everything that
1:03:24
you've been through to pick up, it has been a lot.
1:03:30
What do you think's your biggest take away from all of it?
1:03:36
Well, there's a lot of big takeaways #1 you know, God gives
1:03:42
us nothing that we can't bear. You know, I'm going to, I'm
1:03:48
going to quote some scriptures. There's another one that says
1:03:52
there's no perfect man, not even 1.
1:03:58
You know, in, in all things God does good for those who love
1:04:02
God, who are called according to their to his purpose.
1:04:08
And but by the grace of God, there go I.
1:04:11
So you know this life experience can happen to any of us.
1:04:17
It doesn't matter how high you sit or how low you fall and
1:04:21
anywhere in between. We can all go through
1:04:24
experiences that may not be what we saw in our lives ourselves.
1:04:28
Accountability is so important in every stage of your life,
1:04:33
irrespective of what has happened.
1:04:35
But forgiveness is also right. I could have stayed stuck like I
1:04:40
got set up, you know, done and all the things, which was true
1:04:43
on one side. But like my Mama said, if I
1:04:46
hadn't been in the middle of doing this, I couldn't have got
1:04:48
set up right. So like there is like I always
1:04:51
tell people two things can be true.
1:04:54
It doesn't have to be or it can be and right.
1:04:57
And you have to also know what is that?
1:05:01
There's another quote like to know, to know thyself is true.
1:05:04
Like I like to know. You have to know yourself better
1:05:07
than anybody you know, I know Topeka.
1:05:10
No one can say they know me better than I know me.
1:05:14
And so as long as I'm able to get up in the Mirror Now and be
1:05:18
proud of who I am, irrespective of the things that I've done,
1:05:22
good and bad, you know, because I haven't always been the best
1:05:24
person in the world. I sold drugs.
1:05:26
That's not being a good person, you know what I mean?
1:05:30
But I'm a great person now, and every day I strive to be a
1:05:34
better person. And you know, with that, it's
1:05:38
hard. And with that I got haters.
1:05:42
You know, people have tried to destroy me and the things that
1:05:46
I've created. But I know that I'm doing God's
1:05:49
work. And so I know that it wouldn't
1:05:51
be easy, but I know that God would always get me through.
1:05:55
And so, you know, we have to walk in the confidence that God
1:06:00
gives us. And it doesn't matter where
1:06:03
you've been. It's all about who you are
1:06:06
today, who you want to be and be humble in all things like
1:06:10
always, don't and don't forget where you come from because it's
1:06:13
easy for those of us who've left prison now 10 years, who is
1:06:19
doing, you know, fairly well for myself, I could forget, you
1:06:24
know, I could easily start. I could have started this
1:06:26
business and I thought about the people that I've left behind.
1:06:29
Right, easy. But it's not in me, you know?
1:06:34
And part of it keeps me safe too, because as long as I have a
1:06:36
daily reminder of where I've been, I will never go back.
1:06:42
You know, because again, when nobody is perfect.
1:06:47
Wow. That's a really all that's
1:06:49
really good, Topeka. And I was thinking another thing
1:06:54
that you said to use one of your quotes is, is that the
1:06:57
conviction is a thing. And I'm a beam and I want to be
1:07:01
known for the things that I'm doing, not for that one thing.
1:07:05
And that you live that. And, and I think that's so
1:07:08
important for all of us that have been through a thing that
1:07:13
doesn't make you who you are. That's a part of who you are.
1:07:16
And I just, I think, you know, you're inspiring and you inspire
1:07:21
a lot of people. I, I think Van Jones said if you
1:07:24
are inspired by Topeka Sam, you need to go have your heart
1:07:27
checked. I, I want to, I want to give a
1:07:34
shout out to homestead financial home mortgage list, but uses
1:07:37
podcast set up. If you're looking for a book out
1:07:40
there. I've got 19 for success,
1:07:42
loyalty, betrayal, light behind bars, adapting and finally
1:07:45
breaking free. Leave me a review on Apple.
1:07:47
You got time. Go to brettcassidy.com and see
1:07:50
what I'm doing. But I spell it wrong.
1:07:52
I spell it with ATY, not a DY as I used to say, right?
1:07:55
My emails back and forth from Leavenworth.
1:07:58
Stay strong, I'll do the same. Topeka, Sam, you are something
1:08:02
else. So glad that you were here
1:08:04
today. Thank you so much for having me,
1:08:08
Cassidy with a Ty and not a DY this.
1:08:12
It was such a great honor. You know, I always I I get
1:08:15
interviewed a lot, but you know, it's nothing more fulfilling for
1:08:20
me than to be interviewed by someone who has lived what I
1:08:23
have lived. And so thank you for creating
1:08:26
this platform for us, you know, Four Seasons strong.
1:08:30
It's awesome. I know how hard this is.
1:08:32
You know, I had a show too. So, you know, for you to make it
1:08:35
this law that is awesome. Keep going and keep and just
1:08:39
keep doing, doing God's work. Thank you.
1:08:43
Thank you, Topeka. Nine more success, in and out.