Latest / The Book Deal / Advances, royalties, pirated books and other ways authors may (or may not) earn money

Transcript

Advances, royalties, pirated books and other ways authors may (or may not) earn money · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Madeleine Cleary: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Madeleine Cleary: No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered.
• 0:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm Madeleine Cleary, and join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:29
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on.
• 0:35
  Madeleine Cleary: And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:43
  Madeleine Cleary: It's Madeleine here.
• 0:44
  Madeleine Cleary: I just wanted to quickly drop in and say that for those who want to stay in the know, Tina and I have just launched our newsletters.
• 0:50
  Madeleine Cleary: We'll be sharing all the details We don't get to cover in our monthly catch up episodes, and if you sign up.
• 0:56
  Madeleine Cleary: You'll be absolutely hearing our news first.
• 0:58
  Madeleine Cleary: You'll also go into the draw to win a free copy of our books, including an early copy of my debut novel, The Butterfly Women.
• 1:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Signing Up is free and we promise we won't inundate you.
• 1:08
  Madeleine Cleary: It'll just be our news every couple of months.
• 1:11
  Madeleine Cleary: You can find the links on our websites or in the show notes of this week's episode.
• 1:14
  Madeleine Cleary: We hope you enjoy.
• 1:20
  Tina Strachan: Do we do we start with like, hi, Madeleine.
• 1:22
  Tina Strachan: Don't we just.
• 1:25
  Tina Strachan: I love how we've been talking nonstop for like an hour and 15 and then you press record.
• 1:30
  Tina Strachan: It's like nothing.
• 1:31
  Madeleine Cleary: And this is how we shall start our episode.
• 1:34
  Madeleine Cleary: We're hello everybody.
• 1:36
  Madeleine Cleary: We've literally got nothing to say because we've just been chatting, which we should have probably hit record an hour and 15 ago, but.
• 1:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 1:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, we're so professional.
• 1:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Hi
• 1:47
  Tina Strachan: Madeleine.
• 1:48
  Tina Strachan: How are you going?
• 1:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, you know, you, you know what it's like, just the last month's been crazy.
• 1:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 1:56
  Madeleine Cleary: I think both of us.
• 1:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 1:56
  Madeleine Cleary: We've both had a very interesting month and I, we are gonna do our little updates for the month, but, um, and I was just looking back at my calendar to say, what, what have I done?
• 2:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, it's a lot.
• 2:06
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a lot.
• 2:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Same with you.
• 2:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 2:08
  Madeleine Cleary: I wanna hear all about, I mean, the last time we caught up, you were in the throes of, um, having your book out.
• 2:15
  Madeleine Cleary: I think you were like a few weeks out.
• 2:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 2:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, how's the last month been?
• 2:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 2:21
  Tina Strachan: Uh, really busy, but super fun.
• 2:24
  Tina Strachan: Uh, so yeah, I'm still in that, you know, the, the very important two, like eight, six to eight weeks, they say, don't they of like really just.
• 2:31
  Tina Strachan: Of, um, yeah.
• 2:32
  Tina Strachan: Pushing the new release kind of thing.
• 2:36
  Madeleine Cleary: That's what Amie Kaufman actually said to us.
• 2:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, which it was something you organized for our debut crew.
• 2:41
  Madeleine Cleary: We got to have a chat with her in the last month, which was fantastic.
• 2:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 2:45
  Madeleine Cleary: She said, go, go, go in your first six to eight weeks, because that's when you got all the stock in the book shops before they go and return it all.
• 2:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Hopefully not.
• 2:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 2:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Or it's sold.
• 2:54
  Tina Strachan: Yes, that's right.
• 2:55
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 2:56
  Tina Strachan: It's um, and I have to say, you do get really sick of seeing yourself and talking about yourself.
• 3:00
  Tina Strachan: Uh, I mean, some people probably don't, but I do.
• 3:02
  Tina Strachan: And a bit sick of looking at my phone, I have to say.
• 3:04
  Tina Strachan: Um, but.
• 3:07
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 3:08
  Tina Strachan: My advice now that I'm almost eight weeks into it is, yes, you will go through that, but um, just keep doing it.
• 3:14
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 3:15
  Tina Strachan: Like, you're really only gonna get this chance and it's really important.
• 3:18
  Tina Strachan: So just to, yeah.
• 3:19
  Tina Strachan: Just to do as much as you can.
• 3:20
  Tina Strachan: And, um, and when I say that, I, I guess I'm talking, there's a little bit of socials plays a part of it, but then there's so many other things, you know?
• 3:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, I've been doing some podcasts, not just this one, other people's podcasts.
• 3:31
  Tina Strachan: Do you wanna name a
• 3:32
  Madeleine Cleary: few so the listeners can go and find them?
• 3:34
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 3:35
  Tina Strachan: So Words and Nerds.
• 3:36
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 3:36
  Tina Strachan: I did the, um, really fun words and nerds with Dani Vee and, um, the Australian Book Lovers podcast as well, which was really fun.
• 3:46
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 3:46
  Tina Strachan: That's with, um, one of the hosts, her name is Veronica Straton.
• 3:51
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 3:52
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 3:52
  Tina Strachan: Like spelt the same as my last name.
• 3:54
  Tina Strachan: No, but she says Stretchin.
• 3:57
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I know.
• 3:58
  Tina Strachan: It's so weird.
• 3:58
  Tina Strachan: I'm constantly correcting people because they say stretch, and I'm like, no, it's Strachan.
• 4:02
  Tina Strachan: And she, she actually pronounces it that way.
• 4:04
  Tina Strachan: Did you talk about that on the podcast?
• 4:05
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, we did because we, we got no relation.
• 4:08
  Tina Strachan: No relation, which is really funny.
• 4:10
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so, so lots of podcasts, lots of, um, you know, bookshop visits.
• 4:16
  Tina Strachan: Oh, wine.
• 4:16
  Tina Strachan: I saw you did a wine event.
• 4:18
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 4:18
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 4:19
  Tina Strachan: Tell me about that.
• 4:20
  Tina Strachan: Read between the wines.
• 4:22
  Tina Strachan: Love it.
• 4:23
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, sorry.
• 4:24
  Tina Strachan: Hang on.
• 4:24
  Tina Strachan: Read.
• 4:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, read between the wine.
• 4:26
  Tina Strachan: That's right.
• 4:27
  Tina Strachan: God, I thought I got it.
• 4:28
  Tina Strachan: Minute.
• 4:28
  Tina Strachan: And that was at, um, the beautiful quick brown fox bookstore up in Brisbane, and it's a teacher librarian event.
• 4:37
  Tina Strachan: So it's, um, I'd always heard about Read Between the Wines and I thought that sounds amazing, but I do kidlets, so maybe I'll just never get to do one of them.
• 4:45
  Tina Strachan: But, um, no, it was, uh, three kid lit authors, uh, Kate Foster and Kirsten Ealand as well.
• 4:51
  Tina Strachan: And we just got to meet some beautiful teacher librarians.
• 4:55
  Tina Strachan: Um, you know, have a little, have a, have a little beverage mm-hmm.
• 4:58
  Tina Strachan: And some cheese and, and crackers and chat about our books, which was.
• 5:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 5:03
  Tina Strachan: Super amazing.
• 5:04
  Tina Strachan: It was a really, yeah, it was really nice.
• 5:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, and then last week I did Romancing the Stars, which is, um, a book, links Brisbane, um, event.
• 5:14
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 5:15
  Tina Strachan: Which is, they have maybe it was 14, uh, stars, which are the authors or the illustrators.
• 5:22
  Tina Strachan: And then people can book in and it's kinda like speed dating and you go around to.
• 5:27
  Tina Strachan: Each, so there's like groups of people, and as the star, so the author or the illustrator, you, you've got three minutes to sort of talk about your book and then people can ask you after that, people can ask questions, and then you, I think you've got another three minutes for questions.
• 5:41
  Tina Strachan: And then you, they ring a bell and the author and the illustrator move to the next group.
• 5:45
  Tina Strachan: Oh.
• 5:45
  Tina Strachan: And so I have to like, it's kind of by the end of it, I actually, because I had to say it like nine different times.
• 5:51
  Tina Strachan: Pretty much the same thing.
• 5:52
  Tina Strachan: Couldn't remember what I had said or hadn't said anymore, but, oh, hopefully it was okay.
• 5:56
  Tina Strachan: But that was super fun.
• 5:57
  Tina Strachan: Just filled with amazing.
• 5:59
  Tina Strachan: Wonderful.
• 5:59
  Tina Strachan: So wait, who
• 5:59
  Madeleine Cleary: were you pitching to
• 6:00
  Tina Strachan: though?
• 6:01
  Tina Strachan: Um, so they, there's a lot of teachers there.
• 6:04
  Tina Strachan: A lot of teacher librarians there as well.
• 6:07
  Tina Strachan: And, uh, lots of.
• 6:09
  Tina Strachan: Aspiring authors and illustrators and lots of published author, authors and illustrators too, coming along and, and checking it all out.
• 6:15
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, yeah, that was super fun just to catch up with lots of amazing crew.
• 6:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Did your pitch change?
• 6:21
  Madeleine Cleary: No.
• 6:21
  Madeleine Cleary: The nine times you did it.
• 6:23
  Tina Strachan: Um, not, actually, not really.
• 6:26
  Tina Strachan: Not really good.
• 6:27
  Tina Strachan: It must have been really good from the start then.
• 6:29
  Tina Strachan: I don't dunno.
• 6:31
  Tina Strachan: Um,'cause I think'cause you've only got three minutes, you're trying to pack everything in and then sometimes I rambled for too long and I think it got a bit shorter actually.
• 6:39
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 6:39
  Tina Strachan: Because I was cutting stuff out to fit in and not rush.
• 6:42
  Tina Strachan: But, but that was a really exciting event, um, and really fun and.
• 6:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, so there was some cool other events and other ways of promoting the book, I guess.
• 6:51
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 6:52
  Tina Strachan: Um, doing it that way.
• 6:53
  Tina Strachan: Um, my mom's been doing a hard job of going around to the bookshops.
• 6:56
  Tina Strachan: She's been going hard as my street team.
• 6:59
  Tina Strachan: Um, and she keeps like messaging me, like, oh, this bookstore, um, they, they've got.
• 7:03
  Tina Strachan: You know, five books.
• 7:05
  Tina Strachan: Um, there was six there yesterday.
• 7:06
  Tina Strachan: Now there's only five.
• 7:07
  Tina Strachan: Uh, but they would like you to go in and sign them.
• 7:09
  Tina Strachan: So I get like the, you know, the proper sales stats every time she be working
• 7:14
  Madeleine Cleary: for Harper Collins.
• 7:15
  Madeleine Cleary: She's got the local insight she can Intel.
• 7:18
  Tina Strachan: It's been really cute.
• 7:20
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so that's been, so it's been really busy.
• 7:23
  Tina Strachan: I think we were just saying before, this is the first week.
• 7:24
  Tina Strachan: I don't have an event for a while.
• 7:27
  Tina Strachan: I'll have to rustle something.
• 7:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And in the midst as well, you also messaged me and said, you've finished the draft of your latest of your new book as well.
• 7:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Is that right?
• 7:38
  Madeleine Cleary: New writing?
• 7:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 7:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 7:40
  Madeleine Cleary: You've somehow fit this in the cracks.
• 7:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I don't know how you've done that.
• 7:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, I wrote, I typed
• 7:46
  Tina Strachan: the end.
• 7:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 7:47
  Madeleine Cleary: And you sent me a, the
• 7:49
  Tina Strachan: um, video of that, which is so exciting.
• 7:52
  Tina Strachan: I know.
• 7:52
  Tina Strachan: It was really amazing.
• 7:54
  Tina Strachan: I think,'cause I had some time off with the release of.
• 7:58
  Tina Strachan: Nika and the missing key.
• 7:59
  Tina Strachan: It, I think I've just, apart from all the publicity and everything, I, I found it was really important actually to keep on writing, um, on something new when I could.
• 8:08
  Tina Strachan: Uh, I think that was just, I.
• 8:10
  Tina Strachan: Uh, just kind of keeps you connected still and a little bit grounded and you know, as I keep saying, I am everyday writer, so I think I just have to, I think it just happens, but that was really good to keep some routine.
• 8:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:21
  Tina Strachan: Um, and I could just get so much done if like, I have the time it turns out.
• 8:25
  Tina Strachan: So yeah, that was super exciting to just write the end and now I've got like lots of edits and things to do on it, but you know, it's such a big milestone isn't it, to huge.
• 8:32
  Tina Strachan: Get just the idea out, which is great.
• 8:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and you've also been doing Nika book two edits.
• 8:39
  Madeleine Cleary: As well.
• 8:39
  Madeleine Cleary: I did the type set
• 8:41
  Tina Strachan: for that.
• 8:41
  Tina Strachan: Um, and so that'll probably be back again soon.
• 8:45
  Tina Strachan: So looking forward to doing that.
• 8:46
  Tina Strachan: It's been really fun getting back into it actually.
• 8:48
  Tina Strachan: And.
• 8:49
  Tina Strachan: Because it's been a big chunk of time.
• 8:51
  Tina Strachan: Um, so that was really fun too.
• 8:53
  Tina Strachan: And pre-orders, are they open now for Nika book too?
• 8:56
  Tina Strachan: Oh yeah, they would be, actually, I'll have to double check.
• 8:59
  Tina Strachan: It's called Nika in the Storm.
• 9:00
  Tina Strachan: So that's a little bit of a giveaway of what happens, um, in that book, which is really exciting.
• 9:06
  Tina Strachan: So, and ing.
• 9:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes,
• 9:08
  Tina Strachan: you've just gone
• 9:08
  Madeleine Cleary: through the
• 9:08
  Tina Strachan: cyclone.
• 9:09
  Tina Strachan: 'cause we just had a cyclone, like a proper cyclone like it was, and I live on the coast and that thing came from the, from the ocean.
• 9:17
  Tina Strachan: And there was no buffering for us.
• 9:19
  Tina Strachan: It was full on really, really crazy.
• 9:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Are you okay?
• 9:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Was it all, everything okay in terms of where you were
• 9:24
  Tina Strachan: living?
• 9:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, like we were, we were, um.
• 9:28
  Tina Strachan: Like we had, our house wasn't damaged or anything like that, but the street was damaged just like trees just pushed over everywhere.
• 9:34
  Tina Strachan: Like even just small street trees.
• 9:36
  Tina Strachan: It just was outta control.
• 9:38
  Tina Strachan: And um, yeah, the beach was wrecked.
• 9:40
  Tina Strachan: Um, but, you know, I'm just grateful that we, I.
• 9:44
  Tina Strachan: Weren't damaged in our hou and no one was hurt because a lot of people did suffer a lot of damage.
• 9:48
  Tina Strachan: And I think they could even be, you know, I think most people have their power back on now, but that's, it was a long time.
• 9:53
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 9:53
  Tina Strachan: Some people like 10 days with no power.
• 9:55
  Tina Strachan: Some people without water.
• 9:56
  Tina Strachan: I had friends coming over and showering and doing their washing at my place.
• 10:00
  Tina Strachan: Oh my gosh.
• 10:00
  Tina Strachan: And stuff.
• 10:01
  Tina Strachan: 'cause it had just been so long.
• 10:03
  Tina Strachan: So yeah, it was really, it was really full on.
• 10:05
  Tina Strachan: So yes, I was editing, uh, about Nico's Cyclone, uh, sorry about Nico's Storm during our cyclone, which was.
• 10:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Very atmospheric
• 10:12
  Tina Strachan: for
• 10:13
  Madeleine Cleary: you.
• 10:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Probably not what you want, but you know.
• 10:16
  Madeleine Cleary: No.
• 10:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh goodness.
• 10:17
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm glad that everything is okay.
• 10:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 10:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, thank you.
• 10:20
  Madeleine Cleary: We're very worried about you, Tina.
• 10:22
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 10:22
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 10:23
  Tina Strachan: It was very strange experience, but, um, yes, we're all recovered now, which is great.
• 10:29
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 10:29
  Tina Strachan: So, but yeah, so a really busy month, but, you know,
• 10:33
  Madeleine Cleary: uh, things have been ramping up for you too.
• 10:35
  Madeleine Cleary: They have been.
• 10:36
  Madeleine Cleary: And actually, before I talk about that, I do wanna talk about something that's been going around on social media, speaking of socials and, um, and oh, also I have an app now on my phone that restricts my social media content.
• 10:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 10:50
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm only now viewing it.
• 10:51
  Madeleine Cleary: I, I can access it on a two hour period.
• 10:55
  Madeleine Cleary: During the day, which has been amazing.
• 10:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Very, very good for my focus.
• 10:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you wanna tell everyone what that app is?
• 11:00
  Madeleine Cleary: It's called Freedom and Amie Kaufman again recommended this and it's for people who have zero willpower like me.
• 11:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 11:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I highly recommend it.
• 11:07
  Madeleine Cleary: You know,
• 11:07
  Tina Strachan: it's not just willpower.
• 11:08
  Tina Strachan: And that was another thing that Amie said, which I've even, I.
• 11:10
  Tina Strachan: You know, I've been spruiking that advice and it's for the kids, for my kids as well.
• 11:16
  Tina Strachan: Like she was saying, who am I to stand up against the billions of dollars that these tech people have put in?
• 11:22
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 11:23
  Tina Strachan: To making sure these apps are the most addictive thing.
• 11:26
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 11:26
  Tina Strachan: That exists so that you are actually powerless to stop it.
• 11:31
  Tina Strachan: That's right.
• 11:31
  Tina Strachan: And she's like, I just can't, I'm one person and.
• 11:34
  Tina Strachan: Of course they're hooking me.
• 11:35
  Tina Strachan: 'cause that's a hundred percent what they're designed to do when they have psychologists and like tech or the biggest tech experts there are to make sure that you can't say no to it and you can't look away from it.
• 11:44
  Tina Strachan: And so she's like, so I just take that like.
• 11:47
  Tina Strachan: Decision away from me and the fight away from me by getting, by using one of these apps that just blocks it off for a couple hours a day.
• 11:53
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, we think about our kids with even less self-control, and it's not their fault.
• 11:58
  Tina Strachan: These, these things were designed to suck them in to target
• 12:01
  Madeleine Cleary: you and to, so you, you are consuming their content over and over and over.
• 12:06
  Madeleine Cleary: You're powerless.
• 12:07
  Madeleine Cleary: All of us feed that as well.
• 12:09
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and this is what something I wanted to talk about.
• 12:11
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause, you know, yesterday, um, and I didn't prep you on this, Tina, but it's something that I think it's important to talk about yesterday.
• 12:17
  Madeleine Cleary: So yesterday I think the Atlantic released, um, a searchable function.
• 12:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 12:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, based off the library genesis platform, which Pirates creators content, um, and has been used by meta speaking of meta, um, to train their ai.
• 12:35
  Madeleine Cleary: And this is.
• 12:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Caused a huge discussion, I think in across the world, but in Australia as well, that you know, Australian creators, so that's writers, musicians, poets, everybody who is creating, um, is having their, their pirated work used to train AI with no compensation.
• 12:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 12:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, the shocking thing for us, and was part of a discussion in our, in our day brew crew for this year, is that even our.
• 13:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Debut writers who've been just published in the last few months are featuring on that database, so their work has already been pirated.
• 13:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Their books have only been out for a month or two and have been already stolen and used to train ai, which.
• 13:19
  Madeleine Cleary: It has to be something that we're talking about more.
• 13:22
  Madeleine Cleary: There has to be better regulation of this and competent, fairer compensation.
• 13:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Compensation for creators.
• 13:28
  Madeleine Cleary: What, what do you think, Tina?
• 13:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 13:30
  Madeleine Cleary: It's sad, isn't it?
• 13:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 13:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Have you looked your book up?
• 13:33
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean, I know it's not out yet, but mine is not because I don't think it's been published, but I expect that given many of our day crew already up there,
• 13:42
  Tina Strachan: mm.
• 13:42
  Madeleine Cleary: That it will be.
• 13:43
  Madeleine Cleary: What about you, Tina?
• 13:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Have you checked yours?
• 13:45
  Tina Strachan: I, I had this really, I was like.
• 13:48
  Tina Strachan: So you, it's a search.
• 13:49
  Tina Strachan: You can actually go and follow the link and it's a search searchable database.
• 13:53
  Tina Strachan: And, but a part of me was like, I actually didn't even want to, for some reason write the title in because I was thinking, am I just gonna alert it to the fact that.
• 14:04
  My
• 14:04
  Tina Strachan: book exists, and then they're gonna, they'll be like, actually no, we don't have that one, but now we do.
• 14:08
  Tina Strachan: Um, so I looked up my name and there is a Teatro that is a geneticist somewhere, and a lot of his medical papers have been used, but I couldn't see, I couldn't see mine.
• 14:19
  Tina Strachan: Um, but I didn't search for long.
• 14:20
  Tina Strachan: I honestly, I just wanted to get away from as far away from it as possible.
• 14:23
  Tina Strachan: But yeah.
• 14:24
  Tina Strachan: It's pretty horrifying and it's uncomfortable.
• 14:26
  Tina Strachan: That's
• 14:27
  Madeleine Cleary: probably,
• 14:27
  Tina Strachan: that's the thing.
• 14:28
  Tina Strachan: It's really, really unsettling, isn't it?
• 14:30
  Tina Strachan: Because we just Yeah.
• 14:32
  Tina Strachan: We who, like I said, who are we to fight these tech giants and they, um, I mean yeah, but it's gonna come down to us, right?
• 14:39
  Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
• 14:39
  Tina Strachan: It's gonna come down to enough people.
• 14:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Not just creators with the only ones that can push
• 14:42
  Tina Strachan: back,
• 14:43
  Madeleine Cleary: but all the people that are, you know, um, consuming content and, and using AI and, and, you know, AI is becoming so important in our society as well.
• 14:53
  Madeleine Cleary: So having regulation around it is really important.
• 14:56
  Madeleine Cleary: So it's not just up to creators to defend our own work.
• 14:59
  Madeleine Cleary: It has to be people who wanna pay.
• 15:02
  Madeleine Cleary: They're a compensation to creators for, for that licensing.
• 15:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you think about how many thousands of hours have we put into our work, Tina?
• 15:11
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 15:11
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 15:11
  Tina Strachan: For it to just to be stolen straight away and used for whatever,
• 15:16
  Madeleine Cleary: thousands and thousands and thousands upon hours of our time in this and to be, for it to be pirated is just devastating.
• 15:23
  Madeleine Cleary: I have another
• 15:23
  Tina Strachan: Amie Health Kaufman, um, reference.
• 15:28
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 15:30
  Tina Strachan: At another event that I saw her speak at, she started talking about it and, you know, and, and how, you know, upset she is with the whole situation.
• 15:38
  Tina Strachan: This was before, this was like probably six months ago.
• 15:41
  Tina Strachan: And yeah.
• 15:42
  Tina Strachan: 'cause she was saying how you can, you know, type into these AI generators, you know, write me 50,000 word book, um, in the style of Amie Kaufman and, and, um, I don't know, all of the gods.
• 15:58
  Tina Strachan: You know, for instance, which is one of her books, and you can do that and it will come out and a hundred percent her very, very close to her writing style and, you know, all the characters, all that sort of thing.
• 16:09
  Tina Strachan: And it's just because it's just taken all like all of her, you know, back catalog and, and used it.
• 16:14
  Tina Strachan: So like
• 16:14
  Madeleine Cleary: that's.
• 16:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Disgusting.
• 16:16
  Madeleine Cleary: It's disgusting.
• 16:17
  Madeleine Cleary: And she hasn't been compensated for that.
• 16:19
  Madeleine Cleary: No, for that.
• 16:20
  Madeleine Cleary: The training that's gone into that machine.
• 16:23
  Madeleine Cleary: So things have to change and I think it's really relevant.
• 16:25
  Madeleine Cleary: I I wanted to raise it'cause one of the things that we wanted to talk about on this episode is, is actually about how authors make money.
• 16:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Licensing our work mm-hmm.
• 16:34
  Madeleine Cleary: For AI is not one of them currently.
• 16:38
  No.
• 16:38
  No.
• 16:39
  Madeleine Cleary: And I, I think I, I wanted to talk about it because a lot of people, um, as the, um, my book will be sort of moving closer to publications, so it'll be, you know, just under six weeks now, a lot of my friends and family, so people who are outside the industry are asking me, so how do you make money?
• 16:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Are you going to be able to take more time off?
• 17:01
  Madeleine Cleary: What, are you gonna quit?
• 17:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 17:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Are you gonna quit?
• 17:03
  Madeleine Cleary: You've gotta book out.
• 17:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Are you gonna go down to part-time?
• 17:06
  Madeleine Cleary: How, how do you make money?
• 17:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 17:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 17:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 17:11
  Tina Strachan: How do you answer that, Tina?
• 17:12
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 17:12
  Tina Strachan: How do you make money?
• 17:13
  Tina Strachan: Um, having your books pirated is certainly not helpful.
• 17:17
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah.
• 17:18
  Tina Strachan: So I guess, and one thing I've heard, um, and maybe this is a myth that we need a bust on our upcoming episode.
• 17:24
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 17:25
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 17:25
  Tina Strachan: Um.
• 17:26
  Tina Strachan: Is that, but I don't think it is.
• 17:28
  Tina Strachan: I think there's actually a lot of truth to it, uh, depending on who you are.
• 17:31
  Tina Strachan: But the majority of your, I guess, money that you make by publishing a book mm-hmm.
• 17:38
  Tina Strachan: Is often on everything else that you do around it and not just books out.
• 17:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:44
  Tina Strachan: So, um, obviously if you have a cracker and, you know, sell a lot of books you like become, you know, like a bestseller or something like that, maybe you could.
• 17:56
  Tina Strachan: That's where you'll make most of your money.
• 17:57
  Tina Strachan: But, um, a lot of other writers and, you know, especially in the Kid Lit community, um, doing events, um, especially speaking at schools is a really big one.
• 18:09
  Tina Strachan: Mm
• 18:09
  mm.
• 18:10
  Um,
• 18:10
  Tina Strachan: kids, uh, children's, um, book week CBCA book week as well, which is.
• 18:14
  Tina Strachan: Actually about a month
• 18:16
  Madeleine Cleary: long now.
• 18:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so I heard a myth actually that, um, kid lit authors make a majority of their income in book week or book month now.
• 18:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 18:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Is that true?
• 18:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Is that, do
• 18:27
  Tina Strachan: you wanna bust that myth?
• 18:28
  Tina Strachan: Well, I guess I think it's, and I don't know'cause I haven't worked in a, in a book week yet, but it can be, you know, and I guess, we'll we can talk a bit more about this, but obviously you.
• 18:39
  Tina Strachan: There are fees that you can charge for speaking and mm-hmm.
• 18:42
  Tina Strachan: Um, the a SA, uh, lists that mm-hmm.
• 18:45
  Tina Strachan: And that's definitely something that people, Australian Society of Authors.
• 18:48
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 18:48
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:49
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 18:49
  Tina Strachan: They definitely have guidelines for, not just for schools.
• 18:52
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 18:52
  Tina Strachan: Rates of pay for everything speaking everywhere and for how long.
• 18:56
  Tina Strachan: Um, and, you know, everyone definitely should use that when, mm-hmm.
• 18:59
  Tina Strachan: When they're charging.
• 19:00
  Tina Strachan: Um, because it isn't just the.
• 19:03
  Tina Strachan: Uh, a couple of hours or hour that you're speaking at the school for, or the library for, or, you know, some other festival for you are prepping for that beforehand.
• 19:12
  Tina Strachan: You're driving.
• 19:13
  Tina Strachan: There you are, you know, it is your time.
• 19:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, and you know, so you have to make sure that you're compensated for that.
• 19:20
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah.
• 19:22
  Tina Strachan: So you can, because lots of schools are trying to book out authors.
• 19:27
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 19:27
  Tina Strachan: In that book week, it's probably the busiest.
• 19:29
  Tina Strachan: And for some schools, it's the only time they can get authors in.
• 19:32
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, that's, it can be.
• 19:35
  Tina Strachan: That's probably when you can make a lot of bookings.
• 19:37
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 19:38
  Tina Strachan: Make, you know, maybe the most of your money for that.
• 19:40
  Tina Strachan: Just go hard Absolutely.
• 19:41
  Tina Strachan: In that sort of week and, um, yeah, and, and book it out.
• 19:45
  Tina Strachan: Book it out and book it out.
• 19:46
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 19:51
  James Hinchon: Hi, my name is James Hinchon and I'm the author of Llamas in the Library, which is my debut picture book.
• 19:57
  James Hinchon: Llamas in the Library is out now in stores around Australia and is published by Five Mile.
• 20:02
  James Hinchon: Ian Waral.
• 20:03
  James Hinchon: Dutton is the incredible illustrator of the pitch book and there's been such a joy to work with him and Five Mile in this process.
• 20:10
  James Hinchon: My wife and I work in an educational setting, and our family is heavily involved in the agriculture program, caring for sheep, alpacas, and chickens.
• 20:19
  James Hinchon: This naturally led me to write this story.
• 20:22
  James Hinchon: Llamas in the library is aimed at young readers, uh, four to about nine and is a cheeky rhyming story about 13 llamas that wreak havoc throughout a school.
• 20:32
  James Hinchon: Students stumble upon this outrageous situation and must work together to corral the alamas back outside to their paddock in the school Ag plot.
• 20:40
  James Hinchon: Throughout the journey, teachers can be heard shouting.
• 20:42
  James Hinchon: There's llamas in the library and we need to get them out, which is essentially the hook that the story is built around.
• 20:48
  James Hinchon: It's a lot of fun and I really hope it connects with young and older alike, particularly those interested in these fun loving goofball animals.
• 20:55
  James Hinchon: Thank you for your support and for the Book Deal Podcast for the opportunity to share with you all today.
• 21:01
  James Hinchon: Bye for now.
• 21:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay, so let's talk about, so let's go to the start.
• 21:09
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um.
• 21:11
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you are, if you are an emerging writer, I think this will be really interesting because this is how from when you sign the book deal until when you get to the point where you are booking, making mm-hmm.
• 21:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Sort of kids bookings.
• 21:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 21:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you earn money along the spectrum.
• 21:27
  Madeleine Cleary: And I found this quite interesting.
• 21:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Before I signed my deal to understand how it is that will, and that people throw around all these words as well.
• 21:35
  Madeleine Cleary: So we can try our best to explain it.
• 21:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and if we are wrong, people can tell us and correct our knowledge
• 21:44
  Tina Strachan: please.
• 21:45
  Tina Strachan: Or send us some additional questions as well if we don't cover off on them.
• 21:48
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 21:48
  Tina Strachan: Because we were thinking of doing, you know, maybe another episode where we delve into it with.
• 21:54
  Tina Strachan: Someone who knows more.
• 21:55
  Tina Strachan: Perhaps someone who's the pro.
• 21:55
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, we can either talk, I guess, from our experience and in saying that, I think Madeleine, you, you know a lot, so please tell, tell me.
• 22:03
  Tina Strachan: I try, I'll try my best.
• 22:03
  Tina Strachan: You correct me on what I, what my thoughts are.
• 22:05
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 22:06
  Tina Strachan: So
• 22:06
  Madeleine Cleary: when you sign your contract, you may or may not be given an advance.
• 22:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 22:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Correct?
• 22:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 22:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 22:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 22:14
  Madeleine Cleary: What is an advance,
• 22:16
  Tina Strachan: Tina?
• 22:17
  Tina Strachan: So an advance is money that your publisher will pay you.
• 22:23
  Tina Strachan: As a, an advance of your sales, basically.
• 22:26
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 22:27
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 22:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, so if you get a thousand dollars advance, then you have to sell enough copies for you to make a thousand dollars back in your royalties and not a thousand dollars worth of.
• 22:44
  Tina Strachan: Actual book, but as many books as it takes for you to make a thousand dollars in royalties before you then see additional money after that in royalties.
• 22:53
  Madeleine Cleary: That's right.
• 22:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So it advance is an advance against future earnings.
• 22:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 22:58
  Madeleine Cleary: So you are, so the publishers basically saying, we're gonna give you this amount of money.
• 23:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Because in future, when you start earning money against your book, we want to, you sort of, you know, give you this in advance.
• 23:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 23:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and then as soon as you are earning, you are selling books.
• 23:20
  Madeleine Cleary: You earn out, um, once you have earned up to that account, so you will receive in advance and then you will only start earning money on your book sales.
• 23:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Once you've earned out that advance.
• 23:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 23:34
  Madeleine Cleary: And some people don't ever earn out.
• 23:36
  Madeleine Cleary: No.
• 23:37
  Tina Strachan: I
• 23:37
  Madeleine Cleary: have some stats
• 23:38
  Tina Strachan: actually.
• 23:38
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 23:39
  Tina Strachan: I was just gonna mention that some people don't get any advances Correct.
• 23:42
  Tina Strachan: For various reasons.
• 23:43
  Tina Strachan: Um, and off, you know, maybe smaller publishers.
• 23:46
  Tina Strachan: Can't do that, but there's an upside to that.
• 23:48
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 23:48
  Tina Strachan: In that as soon as you sell one book, you start getting royalties.
• 23:51
  Tina Strachan: Exactly.
• 23:52
  Tina Strachan: Exactly.
• 23:52
  Tina Strachan: And then, you know, it may sound amazing to get, you know, a seven figure advance on your book.
• 23:58
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 23:58
  Tina Strachan: But also you may also never sell, you know, um, out the dollar and then that's it.
• 24:03
  Tina Strachan: And that's, you know, so and so you'll never get royalties.
• 24:06
  Tina Strachan: So there's a flip side to everything.
• 24:09
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's interesting because, um, I, I've been seeing a few, um, things circulating on social media about this.
• 24:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, they like to say, oh, that they signed a six figure book deal, which I.
• 24:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Sounds like a lot of money.
• 24:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, a six figure book deal.
• 24:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but when you break it down an advance is also paid in installments.
• 24:30
  Madeleine Cleary: So it might be you don't get the full mon amount of their money generally straight away.
• 24:36
  Madeleine Cleary: You get, I.
• 24:37
  Madeleine Cleary: A portion upon signing your contract, you get a portion upon delivering your first edit.
• 24:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 24:42
  Madeleine Cleary: And then you get a portion when it's released.
• 24:44
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you break all that down, and that might all happen over a course of couple of years.
• 24:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 24:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you're then also paying taxes on, on that advance as well.
• 24:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 24:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um.
• 24:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Six figure book deal is amazing in Australia, and I'd say most authors do not receive that much in in advance.
• 25:03
  Madeleine Cleary: But even having a six figure figure book deal doesn't guarantee you being able to leave your day job.
• 25:10
  Madeleine Cleary: But you have some stats, don't you?
• 25:12
  Madeleine Cleary: I do.
• 25:12
  Madeleine Cleary: So did you know Tina?
• 25:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:15
  Madeleine Cleary: This is based on the Australian Society of Authors 2023 survey.
• 25:18
  Madeleine Cleary: So it's the latest stats I could find.
• 25:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:21
  Madeleine Cleary: 31.
• 25:21
  Madeleine Cleary: So close to 32% of authors in this member survey received no advance.
• 25:28
  Madeleine Cleary: And these are traditionally published, traditionally published, that's correct.
• 25:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 25:32
  Madeleine Cleary: So 70% of authors received an advance of less than 5,000.
• 25:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Of those who earned in advance.
• 25:45
  Madeleine Cleary: So of, so you've got about 32% of that have no advance.
• 25:48
  Madeleine Cleary: But of those who did, um, earn in advance, only about 60% earned out.
• 25:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So about 40% never saw another cent after their book was released in the world.
• 26:00
  Tina Strachan: And I guess I was gonna say, can you hear that?
• 26:04
  Tina Strachan: I think it's the sound of every single one of our aspiring author listeners just switching off and like going, that's it.
• 26:10
  Tina Strachan: Putting their pants down.
• 26:11
  Tina Strachan: They're like, I'm not, I am not writing anymore.
• 26:14
  Madeleine Cleary: I was just gonna say, this is sounding very doom and gloom.
• 26:19
  Madeleine Cleary: But we don't do it for the money, that's the thing.
• 26:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Right?
• 26:22
  Madeleine Cleary: No, no, but but having said that, there are, so this is, this is just talking about advances and royalties.
• 26:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 26:30
  Madeleine Cleary: So there are other ways to earn money as an author, um, to support yourself that are.
• 26:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Beyond this and, and you know, we're talking about things like book week, um, speaking events, festivals, um, but also side, side things as well.
• 26:46
  Madeleine Cleary: So things like starting podcasts and, and newsletters and, um, you know, so you've, you've got other, other things that are in the, the pipeline as well.
• 26:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, royalties.
• 26:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Can you explain what royalties then are,
• 27:01
  Tina Strachan: uh, probably not as good as you, but so royalties is the percentage that you get paid for each one of your books mm-hmm.
• 27:09
  Tina Strachan: That we sell.
• 27:11
  Tina Strachan: Which can, which, yeah.
• 27:12
  Tina Strachan: There's, there's a lot of, I guess, different royalties and they're made up of different things.
• 27:18
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 27:18
  Tina Strachan: Um, if you so say, I think there's a.
• 27:23
  Tina Strachan: 10% is like a pretty standard mm-hmm.
• 27:27
  Tina Strachan: You know, amount that you get of Rods print of the, of the recommended retail price.
• 27:33
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 27:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:34
  Tina Strachan: Um, so 10%, if you have, if you're doing an illustrated book, your illustrator will get a percentage as well.
• 27:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:42
  Tina Strachan: Um, and then there's a, a whole world of other.
• 27:46
  Tina Strachan: Things that can go into that.
• 27:47
  Tina Strachan: And like you said, so that was, that's for print, say as an example.
• 27:50
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 27:50
  Tina Strachan: And then if you have an audio book, there'll be, you know, a different percentage perhaps.
• 27:56
  Tina Strachan: I think it's about 25% different size.
• 27:58
  Madeleine Cleary: It's generally about 25% for audio and, um.
• 28:02
  Madeleine Cleary: 25% for eBooks as well.
• 28:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 28:05
  Madeleine Cleary: So I guess we should also say that, um, you know, your ebook advance is also gonna be separate from your print advance?
• 28:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, well, it depends actually.
• 28:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Depends.
• 28:14
  Madeleine Cleary: It depends.
• 28:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 28:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 28:15
  Madeleine Cleary: So, so, you know, you might be with a publisher that will license those ebook, uh, audiobook writes to another party, and then they will pay in advance.
• 28:27
  Madeleine Cleary: On top of that as well.
• 28:28
  Madeleine Cleary: So there's lots of different things.
• 28:30
  Madeleine Cleary: If you sell your right to overseas, you will get an advance from international publishers for each one of those sales overseas as well.
• 28:40
  Madeleine Cleary: So that all starts, you know, um, adding up.
• 28:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, if you get optioned, um, for a movie or a TV series, you will get an amount of money for that time as well.
• 28:52
  Madeleine Cleary: And that's a whole other sort of kettle of things.
• 28:55
  Madeleine Cleary: So there's lots of different avenues, I suppose, um mm-hmm.
• 29:00
  Madeleine Cleary: As an author.
• 29:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 29:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 29:01
  Madeleine Cleary: So the royalty is that percentage that you receive every time there's a book sale.
• 29:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 29:07
  Madeleine Cleary: So, for example, the butterfly women will be.
• 29:11
  Madeleine Cleary: 34.99 RRP recommended retail price.
• 29:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 29:16
  Madeleine Cleary: And so 10%,$3 50 per book, minus GST, of course, but it's about$3 50 per book.
• 29:23
  Madeleine Cleary: So when people ask me, how much money will you be getting when you, when we, when we buy your book, I say about$3 50.
• 29:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And people are shocked outside the industry actually to hear that.
• 29:32
  Madeleine Cleary: And they go, oh.
• 29:34
  Madeleine Cleary: The publishers must be taking all that money.
• 29:35
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm like, no, no, no.
• 29:37
  Madeleine Cleary: You've got, you've got a factor.
• 29:39
  Madeleine Cleary: And I just
• 29:40
  Tina Strachan: think to myself, these books take years to make.
• 29:44
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 29:44
  Tina Strachan: Years to make.
• 29:45
  Tina Strachan: And I can't even count how many people have contributed to it.
• 29:50
  Tina Strachan: Multiple editors, the type setters, the, there's people behind the scenes that I don't, didn't even know about.
• 29:55
  Tina Strachan: You know, like designers.
• 29:57
  Tina Strachan: It's not just illustrators, but there's designers and there's cover designers and there's, you know, people that haven't met.
• 30:02
  Tina Strachan: Just the printing costs paper.
• 30:04
  Tina Strachan: The paper is a huge thing at the moment.
• 30:06
  Tina Strachan: People may not realize paper costs has gone up.
• 30:09
  Tina Strachan: Drastically, um, you know, the printers.
• 30:12
  Tina Strachan: The distributors.
• 30:13
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 30:14
  Tina Strachan: The packaging, the marketing people, and the, just absolutely everything that goes into it.
• 30:19
  Tina Strachan: So when you go, well, a$32 book and you get$3, what about everybody else?
• 30:25
  Tina Strachan: That's right.
• 30:26
  Tina Strachan: It does, it just, it.
• 30:28
  Tina Strachan: Yeah,
• 30:28
  Madeleine Cleary: and so obviously the publishers need to make money, so that's Al always going to be a thing, but they're certainly not taking the rest of that 32.
• 30:38
  Madeleine Cleary: For themselves.
• 30:38
  Madeleine Cleary: For themselves, yeah.
• 30:39
  Madeleine Cleary: They are also selling at a discount to booksellers.
• 30:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Booksellers also have their own overheads, particularly the bricks and mortar booksellers.
• 30:49
  Madeleine Cleary: They will get it at a discount.
• 30:50
  Madeleine Cleary: They then sell it, and they must take a cup of that book as well.
• 30:54
  Madeleine Cleary: And we wanna support our.
• 30:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Bricks and mortar booksellers, especially our independence as well, as much as we can.
• 31:00
  Madeleine Cleary: So, you know, um, there's, there's, we're actually having a chat today in our debut crew about the difference between when a book's discounted, do you get the same amount from a, a discounted book as you would selling for the full retail price?
• 31:15
  Madeleine Cleary: There is a difference, but it depends on how much of a discount that retailer got.
• 31:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, then you get the net receipts.
• 31:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, the net receipt.
• 31:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, so you get the difference between what the publisher is earning, which is the net receipt at 10%.
• 31:31
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, that would be perhaps about a dollar 50 instead of$3 50 if they're selling it at a higher discount to retailers.
• 31:38
  Madeleine Cleary: And they would do that for, you know, those big, big companies, um, that like Big W who are gonna sell huge volumes of stocks that you have.
• 31:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, that's, that's good.
• 31:48
  Madeleine Cleary: That's, that's good.
• 31:49
  Madeleine Cleary: It is
• 31:49
  Tina Strachan: discounted, but it's, um.
• 31:51
  Tina Strachan: The volume's bigger, right?
• 31:52
  Tina Strachan: That's right.
• 31:53
  Tina Strachan: And it's all
• 31:53
  Madeleine Cleary: part of this landscape, this distribution landscape that we are part of.
• 31:58
  Madeleine Cleary: So it sounds low, but there's a whole lot of things that go into that.
• 32:04
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 32:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:05
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 32:06
  Tina Strachan: There's a lot.
• 32:06
  Tina Strachan: And it's, it just is differs for, for each person and, um.
• 32:11
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 32:11
  Tina Strachan: I love how different we are on this, Madeleine, as in you are like, I wanna know my print run.
• 32:16
  Tina Strachan: I wanna know exactly how much I get paid for everything.
• 32:19
  Tina Strachan: I wanna know how the sales are going.
• 32:20
  Tina Strachan: I need to know everything.
• 32:22
  Tina Strachan: And I'm just like, I will know when my statement comes in and I don't need to know before that because it is not helpful for me to know that.
• 32:32
  Madeleine Cleary: I just, I know it's so funny.
• 32:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, be my thing.
• 32:34
  Madeleine Cleary: I think because I've come from a, um, book selling background.
• 32:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 32:38
  Madeleine Cleary: That I'm.
• 32:39
  Madeleine Cleary: I have this really strong interest in this.
• 32:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 32:42
  Madeleine Cleary: In, in.
• 32:43
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think the other thing as well is, you know, like it would be nice to be able to dedicate more time and energy to writing.
• 32:52
  Madeleine Cleary: If there is a moment where I have that opportunity in the next few months, um, I'm going to do that and try and step back from work a bit and have that opportunity.
• 33:01
  Madeleine Cleary: So I'm curious to sort of track this and understand, okay, where are we heading?
• 33:05
  Madeleine Cleary: What are we doing?
• 33:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Um.
• 33:08
  Madeleine Cleary: What, what might that look like?
• 33:10
  Madeleine Cleary: And the other interesting thing, I think too, um, we were talking about, um, in the, in our group, ELR and PLR.
• 33:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 33:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 33:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Which is another way that authors earn money, um, through libraries.
• 33:21
  Madeleine Cleary: And this has actually surprised to a lot of people in the outside the industry.
• 33:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 33:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and it hasn't always
• 33:27
  Tina Strachan: been that way though, has it?
• 33:29
  Tina Strachan: It's relatively.
• 33:31
  Tina Strachan: Recent and it's, I believe, is it?
• 33:33
  Tina Strachan: Or is it the electronic lending rights that was, that's very recent, isn't it, with the audio books?
• 33:38
  Madeleine Cleary: It absolutely is.
• 33:39
  Madeleine Cleary: It's not something, it's like only happened in the last 20 years.
• 33:43
  Madeleine Cleary: So essentially the government will compensate writers, um, for the loss of book sales by people lending the book.
• 33:53
  Madeleine Cleary: From the library.
• 33:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 33:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and we discovered recently that it's based, it's not based on, so I didn't tell you this, but I borrowed your book at our local library and then just immediately returned it.
• 34:04
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I'd already read it and I was like, yeah, I'm giving Tina some money.
• 34:08
  Madeleine Cleary: I was like, borrowed, borrowed it.
• 34:10
  Madeleine Cleary: But no, that would not have given you any extra money.
• 34:13
  Madeleine Cleary: It's actually based on how many copies are in circulation at a time when they do a survey and then you will.
• 34:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Receive a nice little check in the mail.
• 34:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 34:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:23
  Tina Strachan: But you know, it probably, yeah.
• 34:24
  Tina Strachan: So that's a bit, uh, I guess that's a bit confusing for some people that didn't, didn't realize that.
• 34:29
  Tina Strachan: I didn't realize that.
• 34:30
  Tina Strachan: Um, but by getting, borrowing the book though, it does kind of show the demand and so the libraries might get more if they're always out.
• 34:39
  Tina Strachan: So true.
• 34:40
  Tina Strachan: Thank you, Madeleine.
• 34:40
  Tina Strachan: You
• 34:40
  Madeleine Cleary: did help with that.
• 34:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:44
  Madeleine Cleary: That's true.
• 34:45
  Madeleine Cleary: That's true.
• 34:45
  Madeleine Cleary: And so the more copies that are in circulation, the more money gets, the more demand, the more that people are checking it out, like the more demand there is.
• 34:52
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you are, if you are a library user and I'm a big library user, you are also contributing to author's salary and income.
• 35:00
  Madeleine Cleary: So absolutely.
• 35:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Continue to use your libraries.
• 35:03
  Tina Strachan: I heard a really interesting stat.
• 35:05
  Tina Strachan: Okay, myth, I'm writing this down for our Myth Busters episode, so I don't think it's a myth.
• 35:10
  Tina Strachan: I, I.
• 35:12
  Tina Strachan: Did absolutely hear it.
• 35:13
  Tina Strachan: And, um, but just to get some more confirmation around it would be cool.
• 35:17
  Tina Strachan: Um, in that there was some stat, and I'm probably gonna get it wrong, but it was around for every one book that's, that's, um, borrowed from the library, it does generate a.
• 35:28
  Tina Strachan: Like another 4, 5, 6 sales around.
• 35:31
  Tina Strachan: That equates to that.
• 35:33
  Tina Strachan: So the importance of having your book in a library as well, although it's like people aren't paying money for it every time, but there's a stat around it because people are still reading it and I guess then there's also, then they're recommending it.
• 35:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:43
  You know, and they're
• 35:44
  Tina Strachan: talking about it.
• 35:45
  Tina Strachan: Um, they could even post about it, so they haven't paid for it, but they've in a roundabout way contributed to more sales.
• 35:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing.
• 35:53
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and, um, I was actually talking to, um, a friend's mom who's part of a book club associated with the library they order in, and there's about 20 of them in this book club.
• 36:05
  Madeleine Cleary: The, the, the library's actually order in 20 copies of the book.
• 36:09
  Madeleine Cleary: And then distribute it at once a month, a different book once a month, they choose, the library chooses it.
• 36:14
  Madeleine Cleary: How wonderful to have 20 copies of your book circulating in just a local branch of a library.
• 36:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 36:20
  Madeleine Cleary: I, that's invaluable.
• 36:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 36:22
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm finding like most, you know, I.
• 36:24
  Madeleine Cleary: New publish books, you are lucky to get one to two or three copies.
• 36:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, generally, unless you're like a big, you know, bestseller.
• 36:32
  Madeleine Cleary: So the more copies in circulation.
• 36:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, like you said, word of mouth is probably what sells books the most, um, which is, you know, really organic and lovely.
• 36:41
  Madeleine Cleary: So, and it's a long
• 36:42
  Tina Strachan: game really, isn't it?
• 36:44
  Tina Strachan: Like it's, everyone wants to come outta the gates as a bestseller, but really what you want is for people to read the books and love them.
• 36:50
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 36:50
  Tina Strachan: And they have a long, long life on the shelf.
• 36:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 36:54
  Madeleine Cleary: And once you know as de or emerging sort of early career writers.
• 36:59
  Madeleine Cleary: You probably won't be most people according to, you know, the a SA survey results won't be receiving lots and lots and lots of money in their first year or, but I was, um, this is something, you know, talking with other authors about.
• 37:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Sometimes it's their second or third or even fourth book that really propels them and then people will go back to their first or second or third books and read their back list and that's, you know, so it's, it's not to say.
• 37:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Give up.
• 37:28
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm never gonna make any money on this, so why bother?
• 37:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, both you and I didn't start writing because we expected to make any money from it.
• 37:35
  Madeleine Cleary: I, I remember the first time I, I think I won a, like a, um, it was a writing prize and I think I won$500.
• 37:44
  Madeleine Cleary: It was for a short story.
• 37:46
  Tina Strachan (2): Wow.
• 37:47
  Madeleine Cleary: I
• 37:47
  Tina Strachan: know it's pretty good.
• 37:48
  Madeleine Cleary: I was like, what, what competition was this?
• 37:51
  Madeleine Cleary: It was the, actually, I'm just looking up.
• 37:53
  Madeleine Cleary: I've got the award on my bookshelf, the Em Fletcher Writing Award, and it was in 2022.
• 37:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, great competitions, um, based in Canberra, but um, it's for open to all Australian residents.
• 38:06
  Madeleine Cleary: And yeah, I came second, I think in the award and I, I won this$500 and I remember when it hit my bank account, I was like, oh my goodness, I have been paid.
• 38:16
  Madeleine Cleary: For my writing like that.
• 38:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 38:18
  Madeleine Cleary: This is the most incredible, that's incredible.
• 38:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing thing ever.
• 38:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 38:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm not to say that we should discount and just accept whatever, and, you know, that writers should be paid little and dah, dah.
• 38:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm not saying that at all, but hanging onto the fact that we do this because we love it.
• 38:34
  Madeleine Cleary: We get paid for it.
• 38:35
  Madeleine Cleary: That's amazing as well.
• 38:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 38:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, we both, you and I have been paid for our work, which is so, so, so cool.
• 38:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's a privilege that not everybody has had in the past.
• 38:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 38:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Um.
• 38:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 38:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Not discounting that rider shouldn't be paid more.
• 38:49
  Madeleine Cleary: I think they absolutely should be.
• 38:50
  Madeleine Cleary: But sort of holding onto that, if you're feeling that feeling like, oh, I'm never gonna make any money out of this.
• 38:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Just those little small wins can help too.
• 38:58
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:59
  Tina Strachan: And I think that's why it's important to.
• 39:02
  Tina Strachan: Um, have a look at the as SA website and that's gonna be my top tip for the episode.
• 39:06
  Tina Strachan: I dunno if that was gonna be yours and I've stolen it, but No, that's a one, one tip for the episode is have a look at the as SA website and check out their rates of pay.
• 39:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, and it's important to, I guess, use that as your guide as well.
• 39:20
  Tina Strachan: And if everybody just is, is aware of what it is that they need to.
• 39:24
  Tina Strachan: Expect, I suppose.
• 39:26
  Tina Strachan: And, uh, yeah, make sure that you're charging for everything that you,
• 39:30
  Madeleine Cleary: that you should be doing.
• 39:30
  Madeleine Cleary: So that's really important as well.
• 39:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Absolutely.
• 39:33
  Madeleine Cleary: And actually that's an interesting one because, um, I've.
• 39:37
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm gonna be doing lots of library, um, visits, um, and, and um, sort of appearances, which is amazing.
• 39:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, some of them I'm doing during my publicity period in May, and I've made it quite clear.
• 39:51
  Madeleine Cleary: One, I've been asked, oh, are you going to be donating your time to the library or will you be.
• 39:57
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, charging the As SA standard rate.
• 40:00
  Madeleine Cleary: And I know that it's often common during publicity periods to donate your time, and I'm happy to do that, but I made it very clear because it's in the first few weeks of my publicity campaign that I'm happy to do that because I don't wanna set a standard for other authors to just do these things for free.
• 40:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Because often there is an expectation, oh, well if you're selling your book there, that you will be.
• 40:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Speaking for free.
• 40:25
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's a, it's a, it's a cost.
• 40:26
  Madeleine Cleary: You have to drive there, you have to prepare for the presentation.
• 40:29
  Madeleine Cleary: If you're on a panel, you have to read the other books.
• 40:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you are giving up not just that one hour of your time.
• 40:34
  Madeleine Cleary: So I think there is a fair expectation that, that people get paid for those things.
• 40:38
  Madeleine Cleary: I've got other events that will be not during the publicity period, and in those periods I will be, you know, paid for that, which is, um, amazing.
• 40:46
  Madeleine Cleary: And libraries actually are given funding for author's appearances.
• 40:50
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you are an author out there and you are.
• 40:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Worried about asking to be paid, refer to the a SA.
• 40:57
  Madeleine Cleary: And to be honest, the libraries have been amazing and they've, they've actually referenced the a SA.
• 41:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Standard rates of pay in advance before approaching me.
• 41:06
  Madeleine Cleary: So they've actually in their approach
• 41:08
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:08
  Tina Strachan: Said Yeah.
• 41:08
  Tina Strachan: They'd know about it.
• 41:09
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:09
  Tina Strachan: And they know about it because of all the other authors ahead of you that stuck to it and, and quoted it all the time.
• 41:15
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:15
  Tina Strachan: So do stick to it.
• 41:16
  Tina Strachan: They do inspect it.
• 41:17
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 41:18
  Tina Strachan: Um, and you're right, they, it's, they do have a budget for it.
• 41:21
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, but I, I think I, I guess in those first few weeks of.
• 41:25
  Tina Strachan: Um, the promotional period, you are mm-hmm.
• 41:28
  Tina Strachan: You are trying to sell your book mm-hmm.
• 41:30
  Tina Strachan: And get the word out there.
• 41:31
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 41:32
  Tina Strachan: So it does make sense that you, you know, you are, you're happy to sort of do whatever you need to do Yes.
• 41:37
  Tina Strachan: To sell the book.
• 41:38
  Tina Strachan: And then afterwards, it's almost like you are actually drawing people to the library or to the bookshop or something like that.
• 41:44
  Tina Strachan: So it's, so initially the benefits for you to get that, that promotion for the book and then.
• 41:50
  Tina Strachan: After that, it's the benefit is for you as well, but it's also the library then asking you and it's beneficial for them to have you, you come in.
• 41:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 42:00
  Tina Strachan: So I can see.
• 42:00
  Tina Strachan: I agree.
• 42:01
  Tina Strachan: And that's But that's when you charge.
• 42:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, no, exactly.
• 42:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 42:05
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I guess then to answer the question when people are asking me, um, you know, are you going to be leaving your day job or, um, the short answer is.
• 42:18
  Madeleine Cleary: No, but that doesn't mean, and I, I had this great chat with Natasha Lester last week, and it'll be coming up in the week after this one.
• 42:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, she's like, aim high.
• 42:28
  Madeleine Cleary: If you're an early, if you're an emerging writer, if you are a early career writer, why not have the goal of being one day a New York Times bestseller?
• 42:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Because that's one of her goals for this year is to, to get back on the list.
• 42:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And so I was like, oh, but what about goals for us?
• 42:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, that's not gonna be realistic for us.
• 42:44
  Madeleine Cleary: She's like, no.
• 42:46
  Madeleine Cleary: No aim high, you know, just you, you can still, um, aim for these things.
• 42:53
  Madeleine Cleary: There's nothing wrong with that.
• 42:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, if you don't hit the mark, that's okay, but, you know, look at so many authors whose third books have been the ones that have been the big superstar hits.
• 43:02
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, yeah, you've just gotta keep going and going and going.
• 43:06
  Madeleine Cleary: So.
• 43:07
  Tina Strachan: Everyone's journey is different and you cannot predict it.
• 43:10
  Tina Strachan: So I think you've just gotta do what you can and, you know, and obviously enjoy it at the same time.
• 43:16
  Tina Strachan: And I totally agree with, um, you know, aiming high.
• 43:19
  Tina Strachan: 'cause you have to, right?
• 43:20
  Tina Strachan: Like you, you have to, you have to hope.
• 43:22
  Tina Strachan: You've gotta
• 43:22
  Madeleine Cleary: have the hope.
• 43:23
  Tina Strachan: You've gotta have the hope.
• 43:24
  Tina Strachan: And, um.
• 43:25
  Tina Strachan: It kind of forces you then into doing the, taking the steps and you know, is it a bit of manifesting?
• 43:31
  Tina Strachan: Is that what we call it?
• 43:31
  Tina Strachan: I don't know.
• 43:32
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 43:32
  Tina Strachan: But it makes you just take those steps that are in the right direction.
• 43:35
  Tina Strachan: I think it's very important to be ha be a little bit realistic about it because I.
• 43:40
  Tina Strachan: As well.
• 43:41
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 43:41
  Tina Strachan: Course, I mean, we know, we know that you might make, you know, you might make no money at all.
• 43:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:46
  Tina Strachan: No, you know, I, I, you know, maybe you sell a handful of books, maybe it's a complete flop or, but just being real realistic about the industry and of course, you know, the money and, and side of it as well.
• 43:55
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 43:56
  Tina Strachan: But, um, but just, yeah, but always looking and always having that, that goal of being successful.
• 44:04
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 44:04
  Tina Strachan: 'cause it certainly can't hurt and to channel that energy.
• 44:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And why not
• 44:08
  Tina Strachan: you?
• 44:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Absolutely all the authors have that have become super bestsellers or, you know, they, they are just normal people as well, so, absolutely.
• 44:17
  Madeleine Cleary: So why not you?
• 44:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, mm-hmm.
• 44:19
  Madeleine Cleary: So I guess we don't wanna leave this, this episode on a negative tone.
• 44:25
  Madeleine Cleary: We don't wanna put anyone off.
• 44:27
  Madeleine Cleary: But also I think, you know, if you are put off writing.
• 44:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Mate, because you're wanting to earn money from your writing, maybe.
• 44:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Maybe it's not the right.
• 44:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Maybe it's not the right.
• 44:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Right.
• 44:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Because I know like you and I know, even if we didn't get paid a cent for what we do, we would still be writing every day.
• 44:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, it's something that we pour out heart and soul into, and it's something that I'm gonna continue to do even.
• 44:53
  Madeleine Cleary: If I'm just getting that$500 award, which is amazing.
• 44:56
  Tina Strachan: Yes, I know.
• 44:57
  Tina Strachan: It's just like a little added bonus.
• 44:59
  Tina Strachan: Right, exactly.
• 44:59
  Tina Strachan: I was writing these books anyway.
• 45:00
  Tina Strachan: I was writing anyway, so the fact that they're getting published and um, is just, and I might get paid for it, is great.
• 45:08
  Tina Strachan: Exactly what a cherry on
• 45:10
  Madeleine Cleary: top.
• 45:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 45:11
  Madeleine Cleary: So for any people who are listening and wanna help out, writers buy their books.
• 45:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Borrow their books, attend their events, attend the festivals, engage.
• 45:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, these are all the things that you can do to help us, um, and call out anytime you can, particularly if we've got some influential people on the call where, you know, you see a need for better regulation, better pay for creators, um, and protection of creators content, um, online.
• 45:44
  Madeleine Cleary: So were they all your top tip for this episode, Madeleine?
• 45:48
  Madeleine Cleary: My top tip Tina is yes, buy and borrow books.
• 45:54
  Madeleine Cleary: That was an excellent top tip.
• 45:57
  Tina Strachan: Alright, thanks Madeleine.
• 45:58
  Tina Strachan: Good to chat.
• 46:03
  Tina Strachan (2): Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 46:05
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