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Chris Fabry Live - The Battle for Heaven and Earth · The Word On Demand

0:05
S1: It's an epic story with huge ramifications. It's a battle
0:10
S1: that took place in the unseen realms and caused untold
0:13
S1: pain and havoc for humanity. And it's a question atheists
0:18
S1: have thrown at. Christians and followers of Jesus also pondered
0:22
S1: deeply why did God allow evil? Why did he allow
0:27
S1: the rebellion in heaven that affected everything on earth? Today,
0:31
S1: the president of Dallas Theological Seminary in New York Times
0:34
S1: best selling author, team up and go where others fear
0:38
S1: to tread into eternity, into the heavenlies. And the epic
0:42
S1: story they have told is going to make you think
0:45
S1: deeply about the lengths to which God went to secure
0:48
S1: our redemption. Doctor Mark Yarbrough and Jerry Jenkins are standing
0:52
S1: by straight ahead on the program. From the heart to
0:55
S1: the heart for the heart. You can find us online@cris.org.
0:59
S1: Let me thank our team. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical.
1:03
S1: Tricia is our producer. Lisa's helping out. Josh will be
1:06
S1: answering your calls. You want to talk with Jerry and
1:08
S1: Mark today? We are all getting ready for Founder's Week
1:11
S1: at Moody Bible Institute. Begins tomorrow night runs through Friday
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S1: with great speakers, workshops, worship, and a whole lot more.
1:19
S1: You can watch the live stream of Founder's Week online here.
1:23
S1: The main sessions each evening on Moody Radio. Priscilla Shirer.
1:27
S1: Doctor Tony Evans, Doctor Rick Melson are the evening speakers
1:31
S1: this week, so don't miss Founder's Week again. It starts tomorrow.
1:35
S1: And don't miss the opportunity to receive a great thank
1:38
S1: you here in October. Anyone who supports this program in
1:42
S1: the next 11 days, don't wait till 11 days though.
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S1: Anybody who gives a gift will receive. Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth
1:49
S1: 31 day Advent devotional. Consider Jesus meditations on the Person
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S1: and Work of Christ. Don't miss the festive and meaningful.
1:58
S1: Thank you that we want to get to you as
2:00
S1: you celebrate God's greatest gift. You can call give a
2:04
S1: gift at 18669538669532279. Or just go to the website. Chris
2:13
S1: Fabry live.org. Scroll down. You'll see how you can be a,
2:16
S1: a friend or a partner with us. Chris fabry.org. And
2:21
S1: thanks for your support of the Radio Backyard Fence, which
2:25
S1: allows me to read the first line of the novel
2:29
S1: that comes out November 10th. It's two weeks away. Call
2:33
S1: me Michael. God did and he still does. So begins
2:39
S1: an epic biblical story that will make you ponder God's
2:42
S1: greatness and his sovereignty. In the midst of all the questions,
2:46
S1: they call it a story of Scripture novel. Let's find
2:50
S1: out more from the president of Dallas Theological Seminary. Prolific
2:53
S1: author and speaker, doctor Mark Yarbrough. Mark. Welcome back to
2:57
S1: the program. How are you doing today?
2:59
S2: I am blessed beyond measure, brother. Good to be with you.
3:03
S1: I'm glad to have you. And his co-author is this
3:05
S1: little known author, Jerry B Jenkins, who has written a
3:08
S1: few books, including 21 New York Times best sellers. You
3:11
S1: know him from the Left Behind series, The Chosen Series,
3:14
S1: based on the television series and more. Jerry, how are
3:17
S1: you doing today?
3:18
S3: Doing well. Chris. Always good to be with you.
3:20
S1: Okay. So is November 10th two weeks or three weeks
3:23
S1: from today?
3:24
S3: November 3rd. Is actually.
3:26
S2: November 3rd.
3:26
S1: Is it comes out November 3rd.
3:28
S3: Yeah.
3:29
S2: Yes. November 3rd.
3:31
S1: Okay. So it's two weeks. All right. Two weeks. So
3:33
S1: I'm a little early on this to be talking about it,
3:36
S1: but trust me, there's a good reason to talk about
3:38
S1: the battle for heaven and earth. It is our featured
3:41
S1: resource at Chris Fabry live.org. Okay. A full full of resolution. Here.
3:49
S1: I saw this, I read it a long time ago,
3:52
S1: an advance copy, and I don't think any the advance
3:55
S1: copy I saw that you have a map of the
3:58
S1: Kingdom of Heaven and the Garden of Eden. Mark, where
4:00
S1: did you come up with that?
4:02
S2: Uh, well, it was about three in the morning, you know,
4:04
S2: and I'd stayed up too late, and it was kind
4:07
S2: of one of those moments where it was funny, as
4:09
S2: I was describing heaven in some of the first drafts
4:13
S2: that I'd get to Jerry. I'll never forget. He said,
4:15
S2: you need to make a map of that. And I
4:17
S2: was like, you mean we need to map out heaven? And.
4:20
S2: But part of it is in the narrative. And you
4:23
S2: know this, Chris, right? You want you want your readers
4:25
S2: to kind of be able to better visualize what you're describing.
4:29
S2: And so there are some geographic places that turn into
4:32
S2: markers that were important for readers to know. So that's
4:36
S2: why we went with that.
4:37
S1: So just like Middle Earth and Narnia, you know, obviously
4:41
S1: those were places in the imagination. But Jerry, you're writing
4:45
S1: about something real that happened that nobody's ever at least
4:50
S1: no human's ever seen. Right?
4:52
S3: Yeah. And that's the challenge, you know, that's the thing
4:55
S3: with with biblical fiction, we want to be true to
4:59
S3: the scripture. I mean, we're both obviously believers in the
5:01
S3: Bible and the infallibility of the Word of God, and
5:05
S3: we don't want to violate that. We don't want to
5:07
S3: do something that's implausible compared to what is actually in
5:10
S3: the Scripture. But so often the Scripture will will give
5:14
S3: us hints of a story, 2 or 3 verses. And
5:17
S3: I think we have then literary license to do what
5:20
S3: pastors do every Sunday where they say, you know, imagine
5:23
S3: yourself as one of the disciples or, or seeing this
5:27
S3: miracle or hearing this parable. How would you have responded?
5:31
S3: What would you have thought? So we're trying to put
5:34
S3: characters in the way of these biblical events and see
5:36
S3: what they think.
5:38
S1: Okay, the first line though, call me Michael. I was
5:42
S1: immediately think of call me Ishmael, right?
5:46
S3: I hope so, yeah. If this book could do as
5:48
S3: well as that one did, that would be okay.
5:51
S1: Good old Moby, Moby Dick. So. So you. But here's what.
5:55
S1: Here's the other thing I noticed that you use. Michael.
5:58
S1: You are first person with Michael, but then you get
6:01
S1: to Lucifer and your third person you describe rather than
6:05
S1: getting into his head. Why?
6:08
S3: Well, I think, you know, we need a main character
6:13
S3: in a sense. And and I think Michael made made
6:15
S3: sense there. I mean, you could tell this from God's
6:18
S3: point of view, but then you have no character arc
6:20
S3: because he's the same yesterday, today and forever. But, you know,
6:24
S3: this teaches readers the way it taught me. I mean,
6:28
S3: I guess I knew this, but, you know, it didn't
6:31
S3: come to the fore until Mark explained it to me.
6:34
S3: Angels clearly had a free will. They had, you know,
6:38
S3: the power to choose. And that means even Michael and
6:42
S3: Gabriel and, you know, the other angels did too, because
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S3: Lucifer chose he he got prideful and he chose. He
6:50
S3: wanted his own way And in a bizarre way, I
6:53
S3: found that I'm relating actually to the Lucifer character, because
6:57
S3: I've said in the past, if I were God, I
7:00
S3: would have done it this way, as if I have
7:02
S3: a better idea than the King of the universe, you know? Um,
7:06
S3: but that's what I think that's part of what we
7:08
S3: want readers to take away is they're going to be
7:11
S3: asking the same questions that these angels asked. Bingo.
7:15
S1: Okay. Mark. So this is an audacious this is an epic.
7:18
S1: This is huge. When did you get the idea? How did.
7:22
S1: Because my understanding is you came to Jerry with this.
7:25
S1: You two got together. Where did the idea come from?
7:28
S2: Well, I am privileged to get to do something called
7:30
S2: the Story of Scripture, and it is an experience where
7:35
S2: we try to help people understand the grand narrative of
7:38
S2: the Bible. And, uh, it has really been brewing for
7:44
S2: quite some time for me, I would say for well
7:46
S2: over a decade. And, um, I think that especially in
7:50
S2: what's happening in our culture today and and there's lots
7:54
S2: of readers, but I'm thrilled with Gen Z is starting
7:57
S2: to read big time. And they are they are fascinated
8:00
S2: with the world of the Bible. And so it's been
8:03
S2: there probably for a decade. And God's kindness. Uh, Jerry
8:06
S2: and I were introduced by a, a common friend. And
8:09
S2: we sat together and we realized that we actually get
8:12
S2: along and have all sorts of common friends that we know.
8:15
S2: And so I was just scared to death. And, uh,
8:20
S2: he was like, hey, how can I help you with this?
8:21
S2: And can I coach you up? And can I give
8:23
S2: you some? And finally, about two weeks after him hanging around,
8:27
S2: I said, well, what, what if we wrote it together?
8:29
S2: And he said, I think he said something about, well,
8:32
S2: it took you long enough to ask, you know, and
8:34
S2: he was pretty excited about it. And then we were
8:36
S2: off to the races.
8:38
S1: I remember, Jerry, you and Doctor LaHaye getting together for
8:42
S1: this little series. I don't know if anybody's read it
8:44
S1: or not or heard about it. Was it kind of
8:47
S1: that same you know, he's got the theological, you have
8:51
S1: the fictional and and melding those two.
8:55
S3: This has actually been quite different. Um you know, left
8:59
S3: behind was Doctor Lahaye's idea. Uh, what, what he and
9:03
S3: Mark both have in common is they're both theologians and scholars.
9:07
S3: And I've never been accused of being either one. I'm
9:10
S3: a storyteller, and I know my lane. But with Doctor LaHaye,
9:14
S3: he didn't want to help. Right, left behind. He had
9:17
S3: an idea. And he said, you know, I write non-fiction books,
9:21
S3: but I don't write fiction. So, you know, I got
9:24
S3: the fun part. I write the whole thing with Mark.
9:27
S3: He actually writes the first draft and, uh, he, he
9:31
S3: knows the sequence he wants. He's very creative in the
9:34
S3: story he wants to tell. And so basically, I'm coming
9:36
S3: alongside at that point and trying to turn this into
9:40
S3: a novel.
9:41
S1: That's Jerry Jenkins doctor Mark Yarbrough with us today. The
9:45
S1: battle for Heaven and earth is our featured resource@kris.org. It
9:49
S1: comes out. We've figured this out now. It is November 3rd,
9:53
S1: so it is two weeks from today. It is a
9:56
S1: story of Scripture novel. So we will entertain your questions
10:00
S1: at (877) 548-3675. There's more coming up straight ahead on Moody Radio. Market.
10:18
S1: Gerri have come up with a novel from an eternal perspective.
10:22
S1: It's titled The Battle for Heaven and earth. It's our
10:25
S1: featured resource@kris.org. Doesn't come out for two weeks, November 3rd.
10:30
S1: But if you go there and look at it and
10:32
S1: there's some ancillary peripheral things that are going to be
10:37
S1: released along with this, like a Bible study, there's a soundtrack.
10:40
S1: That was one of the questions I had. There's music
10:43
S1: in here that the angel, the angelic host sing is like,
10:47
S1: where did that? Is that a. And we're gonna find
10:50
S1: out all of that and a whole lot more. But
10:52
S1: here's Mark, I want to ask you, put you on
10:54
S1: the hot seat in. At one point, uh, Michael says something.
11:01
S1: Something is wrong with something is the way Lucifer is
11:04
S1: acting or whatever. And, um, and he said I couldn't
11:08
S1: put my finger on it. And I thought, okay, so
11:12
S1: do angels have fingers? And that gets me down to,
11:16
S1: you know, when the battle happens, what kind of weapons
11:18
S1: do they have? And how do the imagery that's used
11:21
S1: for the eternal. So do angels have fingers and how
11:26
S1: or back up from that? How did you portray the
11:30
S1: angelic host?
11:31
S2: Well, we did it in a lot of creative ways.
11:34
S2: I mean, obviously we jumped into the text, right? So
11:37
S2: there are descriptions of angels in the Bible that, uh,
11:42
S2: are wonderfully, frightening or inspiring. Creaturely, right? I mean, you
11:50
S2: get some great descriptions in the beginning of Isaiah and
11:54
S2: descriptions in Ezekiel. You get descriptions in Daniel and in, uh,
12:00
S2: the book of revelation. So there are times that they're creaturely.
12:03
S2: There are other times that they're very human and they
12:05
S2: come across that way. And so we went with a
12:08
S2: little bit of both really. I mean, they can fly,
12:11
S2: they can move, they talk, obviously they communicate. Um, they
12:15
S2: are enamored when Adam and Eve come on the scene
12:18
S2: and that they kind of look like them, but they
12:21
S2: kind of don't. Right. And so there's a, there's a,
12:23
S2: there's certainly a little bit of that in there of
12:26
S2: how we tried to, uh, describe them. So we wanted
12:31
S2: to go biblical and then yet open the door for creativity.
12:34
S1: What about the language that's used? Jerry. You don't it's like, uh.
12:38
S1: Michael nudged. Uh. Gabriel. Hey, dude, you know you didn't
12:42
S1: do that. You kept the language lofty, right?
12:46
S3: Yeah. I mean, you want it to sound like the
12:49
S3: Scripture sounds. This is where we get our information. But,
12:52
S3: you know, I have the best of all worlds here,
12:54
S3: because I can always say I tried to talk him
12:57
S3: out of that. If you don't like it, I'm not
13:01
S3: a theologian. I mean, I just write stories. Um, but
13:04
S3: we had great fun with it because again, you want
13:07
S3: to stay, you know, the fidelity of Scripture is important
13:10
S3: to both of us. And, uh, and so when we
13:13
S3: get to the biblical parts, we're mirroring those as exactly
13:16
S3: as we can, but we invent characters, we invent conversations.
13:21
S3: And I think, um, the way we think of angels,
13:24
S3: you know, I, I used to have this sort of
13:26
S3: elementary view of, you know, we have guardian angels and
13:29
S3: they're warm and fuzzy and, you know, they do good things,
13:32
S3: not thinking about the fact that they have free will
13:35
S3: and they could that they can choose evil. And, and
13:38
S3: that Gabriel and, uh, and Michael would both say, so
13:43
S3: if you're God and you knew this was going to happen,
13:46
S3: did you create evil? Did you? You know, why do
13:49
S3: you allow this? I mean, those are the questions readers
13:51
S3: are going to ask, and I want them to be
13:53
S3: able to identify with those characters. So we give them
13:56
S3: some human characteristics too.
13:58
S2: Now, Chris, one of the other questions, though, that you
14:00
S2: asked was about the war. The battle scenes. You okay
14:04
S2: if I jump on that one for just a minute
14:06
S2: because it was.
14:07
S1: Get the sword.
14:07
S2: Out. It was a fascinating discussion and we had that. Okay,
14:11
S2: I'm going to say something that sounds a little irreverent.
14:13
S2: So you beat me if you need to. You know,
14:15
S2: I mean, people ask, how did you decide on what
14:18
S2: that was going to look like? And I said, well,
14:20
S2: it's somewhere between Lord of the rings and Harry Potter.
14:23
S2: You know, I mean, in terms of here's what was fascinating, okay,
14:26
S2: now I want to go to the biblical text. Uh,
14:29
S2: the descriptions that we get of angels in the Bible, okay.
14:32
S2: It's varied, but they're described with swords. It is battle
14:38
S2: pictures and metaphors. They can be detained. Uh, you know,
14:42
S2: in the New Testament, we have pictures of angels that
14:45
S2: have been captured and chained, waiting for days of judgment.
14:49
S2: Get that. We get incredible descriptions with Peter and Jude
14:53
S2: in both of their epistles. And so you do have
14:57
S2: some big decisions to make in, in heaven, it's described
15:01
S2: of flame and heat and, you know, bright lights around
15:05
S2: the throne. And so when we started building this battle,
15:11
S2: those are the kinds of things that we brought in.
15:13
S2: So there are real battles that fight that we describe.
15:18
S2: And it's good guys and bad guys, and it is
15:21
S2: heat and energy and things like that. And so that's
15:25
S2: kind of how we went into the real conflict that
15:29
S2: in our description of it that we had them carry out.
15:33
S1: And we there's one section. Let me read this. Get Jerry.
15:36
S1: I shouted two arms and drew my sword. Another singularly
15:40
S1: new experience. This is Michael. No surprise. The hilt of
15:43
S1: the armament God himself had crafted just for me settled
15:49
S1: into my palm, the heft of its long, gleaming blade
15:53
S1: of light. Feeling perfect. Okay, Jerry. Go.
15:56
S3: Yeah, I was going to say that. You know, we've
15:58
S3: had people, you know, you can pre-order the book. So
16:01
S3: people are ordering advanced reader copies. And we had somebody
16:04
S3: write and say, show me a verse where it says
16:07
S3: that angels can be wounded. And of course, I turned
16:10
S3: to my theologian and I say, you know, she wants
16:14
S3: to know how can can angels be wounded? And Mark
16:16
S3: basically is saying, show me a scripture that says they
16:19
S3: can't if they can be detained. Um, you know, if
16:23
S3: they couldn't be wounded, that battle wouldn't have taken long.
16:26
S3: It would have been immediate. But clearly there was some
16:30
S3: fighting going on and, and there was give and take
16:33
S3: in it or hindered.
16:35
S1: There's one part in Scripture where that one angel was
16:38
S1: hindered for going. Going, wasn't it, Michael?
16:41
S2: Yeah. The book of Daniel. Yeah. There's a and that's
16:44
S2: what we're saying, is that the glimpses that we get
16:47
S2: in Scripture, uh, are, are more, uh, warfare oriented than
16:54
S2: we realize. I mean, even in chapter three, when Adam
16:58
S2: and Eve are driven out of the garden, the very
17:00
S2: last phrase is a cherubim is placed with a flaming sword,
17:05
S2: preventing them from access to the tree of life. So
17:08
S2: the language that is used is very physical in its
17:13
S2: portrayal of this, this battle that is going on in
17:17
S2: the background.
17:18
S1: Can an angel then, if they can be wounded, can
17:21
S1: an angel be killed? Aren't angels eternal? And there is no, um.
17:28
S1: There's no redemption for angels because they have no kinsman redeemer.
17:32
S1: So they get one choice. This is my understanding. You
17:36
S1: get one choice, you make your choice. You're going to
17:39
S1: serve him or you serve him and that's it. Is
17:42
S1: that how you feel?
17:44
S2: Well, we don't have any. We don't have any. Angels
17:46
S2: die in the novel. We're just going to go ahead
17:48
S2: and say that. Well, I'm not blowing anything by saying
17:51
S2: that there are wounds. There are deep wounds, there are scars,
17:56
S2: there are physical and emotional, and they're wrestling with this
18:01
S2: concept of evil that has come in. I think it
18:03
S2: kind of hit Jerry and I, as we're writing this
18:05
S2: thing of the shock that it was and the angelic realm,
18:09
S2: to have someone like Lucifer, that was a possibly the
18:14
S2: highest ranking cherubim that is described in regard to, uh,
18:20
S2: the protection of the glory of God and then turn
18:22
S2: and want that upon himself. And so it was a
18:26
S2: shock to the angelic realm when all of this goes down.
18:30
S1: That was one thing that, uh, I like I've thought
18:34
S1: about this kind of thing before, but that's what the
18:37
S1: novel did for me. And it was. Go into the
18:41
S1: thought process of Michael and Gabriel that they have to
18:44
S1: wrestle with emotions, the anger, the incomprehensibility of a revolt
18:51
S1: where everything is perfect. They'd never experienced anything like that. Right, Mark?
18:57
S2: Yeah, very much so. And I think that that's when
19:00
S2: Jerry said at the beginning that we connect the reader
19:04
S2: connects with the and the angels. I mean, not just
19:08
S2: because the point of view is told from Michael, right?
19:10
S2: In that first person that we get. But they asked
19:14
S2: the questions that every one of us ask about God.
19:18
S2: Why did you allow this to happen? They say it
19:21
S2: with respect. God knows what they're already wrestling with. Uh,
19:26
S2: that they're wrestling with pain. God knows that. So we
19:31
S2: really do connect with the, the angels, they are the
19:34
S2: characters in the story that we're standing right there with
19:38
S2: them as they're begging God for answers. And sometimes God
19:41
S2: does answer, and sometimes God says, I'm sovereign and you're not,
19:45
S2: and I need you to trust me. Trust me, even
19:48
S2: when it doesn't make sense. And I need you to
19:50
S2: still obey. And they're like, we're with you to the end.
19:54
S1: Jerry, what did you argue with him about concerning this?
19:58
S1: You had to have disagreement about something.
20:00
S3: We didn't really disagree about too much. Um, but, you know, I,
20:04
S3: I learned a lot. I feel like I've been to,
20:07
S3: to Dallas Theological Seminary in Yarborough Theological Seminary. Um, the
20:11
S3: fact that God reminds Gabriel that you two have free will.
20:16
S3: And so I want you to choose to, to follow
20:19
S3: and to obey. Um, but for, you know, we have
20:23
S3: a different kind of calendar. Obviously in eternity past, everything
20:26
S3: happens at the same time to God, but to the reader,
20:30
S3: they have to see this in sequence. And so we're
20:33
S3: implying that for eons there was no pride in sin
20:38
S3: and this and that from from Lucifer. And and then
20:41
S3: when it starts to appear in conversation, uh, they struggle
20:46
S3: with this and they say, what is this? What do
20:48
S3: you call this? And why do you allow this?
20:50
S1: Okay, so that's a good point, Mark, to bring you
20:54
S1: a Mark Yarbrough. Jerry Jenkins with us at the back
20:56
S1: fence today. If you go to Chris Fabry live.org, you'll
20:59
S1: see the battle for heaven and earth. If we're talking
21:02
S1: about eternity and time and time, how do you have
21:09
S1: a progression of that when you're writing in the eternal perspective?
21:15
S1: Does that make sense? Yeah.
21:16
S2: Okay. Well, even the even the angels wrestled with this.
21:19
S2: I mean, they, they get lost in time. And as
21:23
S2: things begin to have a sequence to them, uh, they
21:28
S2: become more aware of movement of time. And that's kind
21:34
S2: of fascinating. So at first, right when they're in this
21:37
S2: moment of eternal worship and gathering around the throne, and
21:42
S2: then all of a sudden something has occurred in the
21:45
S2: heavenlies that disrupt that purity. And obviously, it's the fall
21:50
S2: of Lucifer. It's the fall of Satan. And that puts
21:53
S2: in motion, uh, some sequences, even for them that they
21:59
S2: wrestle with. And God is having to remind them. There's,
22:02
S2: there's one chapter early on, um, I remember the title
22:05
S2: of it, but in essence, God gives, uh, Michael a
22:09
S2: command to see, see my beauty. And, uh, it was a,
22:13
S2: we're getting some interesting in some of the pre reads
22:15
S2: on that chapter in particular of saying, hey, make sure
22:19
S2: that even in the midst of, we get very, we
22:22
S2: readers even can get very temporal in our pain, right?
22:26
S2: And God is in many ways asking Michael to come
22:29
S2: above the fray and not forget the beauty of who
22:32
S2: God is, and that he is always the same, and
22:34
S2: he has not changed. The circumstances may have changed from
22:37
S2: Michael's vantage point, but God has not changed. And so
22:41
S2: I think there are some subtle ways that we try
22:43
S2: to bring time into this dialogue. And it's different even
22:47
S2: for the angels.
22:48
S1: Pride was another thing. Uh, pride when Michael, when God
22:53
S1: is speaking to Michael and dealing with pride, his first
22:58
S1: response is, well, am I not supposed to be proud
23:01
S1: of you? You know? And then God says, that's that's fine.
23:06
S1: I'm paraphrasing here. It's okay to paraphrase you guys. Uh,
23:09
S1: it's fine for that. But when the object of pride
23:12
S1: is yourself and that's where where it's coming from, Lucifer,
23:18
S1: when it's yourself, then it goes off the rails, right?
23:22
S3: Yeah. And that's, that all fits in to, to the,
23:25
S3: to the economy of time when we talk about sequence.
23:28
S3: I've long been fascinated by, by that difference of of
23:32
S3: how God views time and how we view time. And
23:34
S3: Scripture is clear that to God a day is as
23:37
S3: a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.
23:40
S3: And you can imagine back in the left behind heyday,
23:43
S3: we've got this question all the time. Why does Scripture
23:45
S3: say to watch and wait for the imminent return? How
23:47
S3: imminent can it be when it's been over 2000 years
23:50
S3: since he said that? And, and we we would always say,
23:54
S3: if God and His mercy waits one more day in
23:58
S3: our economy of time, that could be a thousand years.
24:01
S3: Those are the kind of things we're we're wrestling with
24:03
S3: here too, is that, um, while to God this may
24:06
S3: all be happening in the same instant to, to readers,
24:10
S3: to us, you know, mortals, we, we see it in sequence.
24:15
S4: How does this fit.
24:15
S1: In with your fictional dictum? And I've heard this just
24:19
S1: about all my adult life. Get your character in terrible
24:22
S1: trouble and make it worse and worse and worse, so
24:26
S1: that the reader is how are they going? How is
24:29
S1: he going to get out of this? How did you
24:30
S1: do that, Jerry?
24:31
S3: Yeah. I think, um, you know what happens there if
24:36
S3: Lucifer is I mean, of course, Lucifer is the villain. Um,
24:40
S3: he doesn't think he's in trouble. He thinks he's in charge. Um,
24:44
S3: with Michael and with Gabriel. They're watching all this, and
24:49
S3: they're thrilled by creation. They're thrilled by what they're seeing,
24:52
S3: you know, God creating, uh, humans in his own image
24:55
S3: and that type of thing. But to them, things get
24:59
S3: worse and worse because by the time you get to,
25:02
S3: to the garden and after the perfection of Adam and
25:06
S3: Eve and how creative they are and all that, um,
25:09
S3: when they fall, everything they try to do to make
25:13
S3: it better makes it worse. And they get banished from
25:15
S3: the garden. Um, you know, we both have a worldview
25:20
S3: of hope. I like stories with happy endings. This was
25:23
S3: a hard one to end on a happy note when
25:25
S3: the perfect couple gets cast out of the perfect garden. Yes,
25:29
S3: but God himself says, somebody's coming.
25:31
S1: And we. Yeah, that is that is it? He's coming. Uh,
25:35
S1: and we're going to get into that. We're going to
25:37
S1: get into Adam and Eve and more about the battle
25:40
S1: for heaven and earth. Featured resource. Chris fabriclive.org comes out
25:44
S1: in two weeks. Here's our number (877) 548-3675 more straight ahead.
26:03
S1: A good story will make you think. A really good
26:07
S1: story will let you see yourself. And both of those
26:13
S1: things happen in the book that doctor Mark Yarbrough and
26:16
S1: Jerry Jenkins have put together titled The Battle for Heaven
26:20
S1: and earth A Story of Scripture novel. Yeah, they go
26:24
S1: into eternity past. They talk about the fall of Satan, Lucifer,
26:30
S1: and all that happened then in creation with Adam and Eve.
26:33
S1: There's not only a map of the garden, you get
26:36
S1: to see what Adam and Eve were like pre fall,
26:39
S1: what Eden was like. So there's a lot of questions
26:42
S1: I have. And, uh, one of the things that I
26:45
S1: encountered though, as soon as I saw the first few chapters,
26:49
S1: I saw this music that was in the, the lyrics
26:54
S1: that were the angels singing, and I typed it into
26:59
S1: my browser because it's like that, that sounds like a
27:02
S1: song that I've heard before. And Mark, that was not
27:07
S1: a song that I've heard before. Right?
27:09
S2: Yeah. Um, here's how it all kind of started. You know,
27:12
S2: when we were in the heavenlies, obviously writing, uh, you know, it,
27:16
S2: it was fascinating study for me. I would stop and
27:18
S2: get derailed. What what do the angels. How many times
27:22
S2: in Scripture are angels talked about worshiping God around the throne.
27:28
S2: And it's a stunning amount of times. And so in
27:31
S2: the novel, I would start writing and the angels sang,
27:34
S2: and it was just a little chorus. And then I
27:37
S2: would start writing a full song. And then it, it, uh,
27:42
S2: turned into more than that. So in the novel, there
27:45
S2: are ten brand new songs that have been written by
27:50
S2: different characters, obviously in the novel. And then we called
27:55
S2: in some friends of ours and went to Nashville. I
27:58
S2: wrote out all the music for it. And so we're
28:01
S2: going to release a full soundtrack with the battle for
28:07
S2: Heaven and earth. So it's the battle for Heaven and
28:08
S2: earth soundtrack. Wow.
28:10
S1: Okay, you can't tell me any of the people who
28:12
S1: are singing yet, right?
28:13
S2: Actually, I'm happy to tell you some of the people
28:15
S2: that are singing. So we have a good friend, one
28:18
S2: of our guys at Dallas Seminary. His name is Todd Agnew.
28:22
S2: Todd was a calm guy that traveled for years and
28:25
S2: years and years, and a bunch of songs that you
28:28
S2: would recognize. A friend that Gerry introduced me to, a
28:32
S2: guy in the Southern gospel world.
28:34
S1: Not Ernie.
28:35
S2: Ernie Haase and signature sound. Do a, do a song. Hey,
28:39
S2: this is the first time we're saying this, Chris, by
28:41
S2: the way. So this is kind of fun doing it
28:43
S2: with you. Uh, got by the name of Mike Weaver,
28:46
S2: Big Daddy Weave. You know, a lot of his songs.
28:49
S2: He did a song. And so we've just got some
28:51
S2: different friends that came in and did these. And it's
28:53
S2: going to release a few weeks after the novel. So
28:56
S2: the novel's November 3rd, and there's going to be one
28:59
S2: song that drops with that. It's kind of to whet
29:02
S2: the whet the appetite. And then on January the 15th,
29:06
S2: all the rest of the full album will drop. So
29:09
S2: we're excited about it.
29:10
S1: I knew you guys, when you go big, you got
29:12
S1: to go big, right?
29:13
S2: You gotta go big or go home. Chris come on out.
29:16
S1: Whole hog as they say. Okay. And some of those
29:19
S1: there's there's also some teaching videos that are coming out.
29:23
S1: There are Bible studies. So how do how do people
29:26
S1: find those?
29:28
S3: I think the best place is, um, battle for Heaven
29:32
S3: and earth book.com.com. Okay. And we shot those videos on
29:38
S3: the set of The chosen because I know a guy.
29:41
S1: No.
29:41
S3: You're kidding. Yeah. They're pretty.
29:43
S1: It just keeps getting better and better.
29:45
S3: Well, and this won't surprise you, Chris, but you know,
29:48
S3: the the difference in weight between our theological knowledge. Uh,
29:54
S3: I would start the video by saying, here's what we're
29:57
S3: going to talk about. Take it Mark. And then he
30:00
S3: would teach.
30:01
S2: Now that's not totally true. We had some wonderful discussions
30:04
S2: about some great theological topics that come out of the book.
30:07
S2: And so yeah, it was fun. It was fun.
30:08
S1: Okay. The battle for heaven. Is it the battle for
30:11
S1: heaven or earth book.com or just battle.
30:13
S2: The.
30:14
S1: Battle?
30:15
S2: The battle for Heaven and earth book.com. There you go.
30:19
S1: Uh, Mike is on the line in Tennessee. Mike, why
30:22
S1: did you call today?
30:24
S5: Yes, sir. Um, I. Okay. I can't remember which one
30:29
S5: of the guests said it, but one of them said
30:31
S5: that they were talking about, you know, Michael and Gabriel
30:35
S5: asked God, why? Why did why did you create Satan
30:39
S5: when you knew this was going to happen? And that
30:43
S5: makes me think, I think, different than a lot of people.
30:47
S5: But that made me wonder, okay, then, is that not
30:51
S5: like when Judas was created to betray, to betray Jesus Christ?
30:59
S5: Is that kind of the same thing? Um, uh, I,
31:03
S5: I just really wanted to hear what they had to
31:05
S5: say about that. Yes. A parallel between a Christian and I'm,
31:10
S5: you know, been a believer for most of my life
31:13
S5: since a child. But just if y'all could elaborate on that,
31:17
S5: I don't have to stay on the line, but if
31:19
S5: y'all could elaborate on that, I'd appreciate it.
31:22
S4: It's a great.
31:22
S1: Parallel. Mark, what do you say?
31:24
S2: Yeah. Thanks, brother. What a great question. You know, in
31:26
S2: one sense it is asking the question of why does
31:29
S2: God allow evil? Why does he allow bad things into
31:32
S2: our our lives? And if you are like me, I've
31:36
S2: got a long list of things that God allowed to
31:38
S2: happen that I wish he would not. And it is
31:41
S2: what it means to live in a fallen, broken world
31:44
S2: under a sovereign God. And ultimately, that's what the angels
31:48
S2: are asking. And I do believe that Scripture gives us
31:53
S2: some insight into some of these things. Ultimately, it is
31:58
S2: God is sovereign. I mean, and that's what it means
32:00
S2: when He is God and we are not. It simply
32:03
S2: means that his ways are not our ways. He sees things.
32:06
S2: He knows things that we do not. And he continues
32:09
S2: to ask us, trust me, even when you can't see.
32:12
S2: And that's ultimately what the angels reference. And that's biblical. Uh,
32:17
S2: you know, the passage of scripture that we get in
32:19
S2: first Peter chapter one, verse 12. It uses that phrase
32:23
S2: that even angels long to look into these things. They
32:27
S2: don't know all that God is doing, but they themselves
32:31
S2: are asked to trust. And so that's what we wanted
32:34
S2: to surface in the novel to show it is a
32:37
S2: question of sovereignty and trust, even in the midst of
32:42
S2: this broken, messy, ugly world.
32:45
S1: Well, and I think the the inference with Judas then
32:49
S1: is what was, was because I called Mike said he
32:54
S1: was created to betray Jesus. I don't know that that's
32:57
S1: fully true. I think Judas had a choice that he made.
33:02
S1: And Lucifer had a choice. He wasn't created to fall.
33:07
S1: But God knew this. And this is where we have
33:10
S1: to wrestle with what sovereignty is, right?
33:13
S3: Yeah. And and I think I was hoping as a
33:16
S3: as a writer and a reader that, you know, working
33:20
S3: with Mark and in representing this great theological seminary that
33:26
S3: we would get the answers. Why did God create evil?
33:29
S3: Why did you know? And he basically says to the angels,
33:32
S3: my ways are not your ways. I think in a
33:35
S3: different plane than you do. And I think there are
33:37
S3: a lot of these questions are not going to be
33:39
S3: answered this side of, of heaven. And, uh, but, but
33:43
S3: we still believe that God is sovereign. That's, that's probably
33:47
S3: one of the hardest parts of the Christian life. You
33:49
S3: see injustice, you see abuse, you see defenseless people suffering
33:54
S3: and sometimes, you know, praying forever for, for relief and
33:59
S3: not getting it and saying, if I were God, I
34:01
S3: would have done it this way. What is that besides
34:05
S3: pride and, and us deciding that we know better than
34:08
S3: the sovereign God?
34:10
S1: Okay, so let's go to the that the fall there,
34:13
S1: not Lucifer, but in the garden and the serpent. One
34:18
S1: of the things that you two did was to show
34:22
S1: the ramifications of the the ramifications of sin to not
34:28
S1: only Adam and Eve, but then to this groaning creation
34:34
S1: around them. Mark, talk about that.
34:36
S2: Yeah. Paul uses that language in the New Testament and, um, he,
34:41
S2: he says all creation is groaning, waiting for the day
34:44
S2: of redemption. So one of the things we tried to
34:47
S2: show is, is not just, um, sin took place, but
34:53
S2: the ramifications. We wanted to show the struggle between Adam
34:57
S2: and Eve and Eve and Adam. So we tried to, to,
35:01
S2: to heighten that, that that is biblical. It's in the text.
35:04
S2: They start blaming one another, their desire to cover themselves.
35:08
S2: It's a pretty heavy emphasis in the text there. Strain
35:12
S2: with God. We tried to show it in the the
35:16
S2: the animal kingdom. All of a sudden the the harmony
35:19
S2: that took place early on in the novel and what
35:22
S2: we would say Genesis chapter two, everything's going great. And
35:25
S2: then all of a sudden things are different. They hear it.
35:28
S2: They perceive things. Uh, they're one of the things that
35:32
S2: we tried to describe was even when they took off running,
35:36
S2: when they bolted after sin, they began to both realize
35:40
S2: there's a weightiness, a physical weighted ness to their bodies.
35:46
S2: Now think of how true that is for every one
35:48
S2: of you. Here are the three of us talking. And
35:50
S2: we're different ages in life. But man, I we all
35:54
S2: know that some. Something's wrong with this system here that
35:58
S2: we have. I have not the Mark Yarbrough at age
36:00
S2: 21 that could bounce around and certainly the age of
36:04
S2: 18 when you could do different things. And there is
36:08
S2: my body is heavy. Something is happening to the cellular
36:12
S2: structure of my very being. And so we wanted to
36:15
S2: show that as well. Does that make sense? So in
36:18
S2: other words, everything that they could do was it starts
36:21
S2: to fracture.
36:22
S1: Yeah, it feels like rocks, he says. It feels like
36:24
S1: rocks are tied to me, you know? As we're walking
36:28
S1: here and I saw that you also, Jerry, before the fall,
36:33
S1: you show the harmony. You show the way that they
36:36
S1: are thinking and interacting with each other where they're not
36:41
S1: in conflict. Right?
36:43
S3: Yeah. The, the whole idea that Mark had of showing
36:47
S3: Eden before the fall is really something special in, in scripture,
36:52
S3: it's just hinted at everything's fine. And then the serpent
36:56
S3: appears and, and we've got the problem. Um, but what
36:59
S3: must that have been like? These people were the ideal humans. Obviously.
37:04
S3: They were created perfectly and they had all these gifts
37:09
S3: and imagination, creativity. And they're in this perfect location too.
37:14
S3: And you know, we're all saying, don't mess this up. And,
37:19
S3: and yet we know what's coming.
37:21
S4: But don't let it happen. Don't let it happen.
37:23
S3: Exactly.
37:24
S2: It was an interesting thing for us, Chris, to talk about.
37:27
S2: In fact, it was one of the things that it
37:28
S2: kind of scared me early on, uh, as we started
37:31
S2: because Jerry kept saying how we know this, if you
37:35
S2: know the storyline here, which we do of Genesis one,
37:38
S2: two and three, how can we keep the the reader engaged?
37:44
S2: And so some of these things that we're talking about,
37:46
S2: the angelic world starting off and the tension of the fall,
37:50
S2: how how could the how could the fall have happened
37:52
S2: with Lucifer? What could have creation been like? Imagine what
37:57
S2: it was like being there in a perfect environment with
38:00
S2: perfect individuals that are gifted and skilled. Even though you
38:04
S2: kind of know which way it might be going, you're.
38:07
S2: We had fun, if I can phrase it that way.
38:11
S2: Putting out a model to say, could it have been
38:14
S2: like this? And so there's enough tension in the text
38:16
S2: that I do think it engages the reader.
38:18
S1: Yeah. That's the president of Dallas Theological Seminary, doctor Mark Yarbro,
38:22
S1: Jerry Jenkins, New York Times best selling author. They have
38:26
S1: teamed to write The Battle for Heaven and earth. It
38:30
S1: comes out in two weeks on November 3rd. You can
38:33
S1: find out more about it and some of those peripheral.
38:36
S1: The videos and the Bible studies the soundtrack. Full soundtrack.
38:40
S1: We have links at Chris Fabry live dot ORG. A
38:51
S1: more program note for you in a week and a
38:54
S1: day next Wednesday the 28th. Rosie's back and it's our
38:59
S1: book club. And The Screwtape Letters is the book that
39:02
S1: we have chosen. If you've never read that or it's
39:05
S1: been a while, get a copy, read it and join
39:08
S1: us because Eva Rudnick is going to join us as
39:11
S1: well as Rosie. One week from tomorrow. Tomorrow begins Founder's
39:16
S1: Week at Moody Bible Institute. You can find out more
39:18
S1: about that. We have a link to all of this
39:21
S1: at Chris Fabry live.org. Chris fabry.org. Along with The battle
39:26
S1: for Heaven and Earth by doctor Mark Yarbro and Jerry
39:30
S1: Jenkins doesn't come out for two weeks, so you can
39:32
S1: preorder it. And that always helps with the with the
39:36
S1: book and everything that's going on. Uh, if you go
39:40
S1: to the website, chris.org, we have a link right there.
39:43
S1: Click through today's information. Okay. This will be the lightning round. Jerry,
39:47
S1: I have to know when you were writing the Lucifer part,
39:51
S1: did any bit of Nicolae Carpathia kind of sneak through
39:56
S1: as you're writing that?
39:58
S3: Well, I was just telling somebody today that, uh, they
40:00
S3: were talking about when they read Left Behind, you know,
40:03
S3: back in a previous life. Um, and I remember my
40:07
S3: son Chad, our middle son, he was in high school
40:10
S3: and he was reading the manuscript. And I remember him saying,
40:13
S3: I hope this Carpathia guy is not the Antichrist because
40:16
S3: I really like him. And I thought, well, that's success
40:19
S3: because that's the way it's supposed to be. Uh, with Lucifer,
40:23
S3: it's really hard to write Lucifer as a positive character
40:27
S3: even before the fall, because everybody knows just from the name,
40:30
S3: this is this is the bad guy. Um, but we
40:33
S3: talk about how he was the most attractive. He was the,
40:37
S3: you know, he was the top cherubim and he was the,
40:40
S3: the worship leader basically. Um.
40:43
S1: So which parallels can I say, which parallels the Judas
40:46
S1: thing too. Because he's the one who kept the money.
40:48
S1: You know, everybody trusted him, right? Right. So there's another
40:51
S1: parallel that I see there.
40:53
S3: Yeah. And so it was fun to, you know, it's
40:56
S3: always fun to write villains, but especially when you get
40:58
S3: the ultimate villain in history. Yeah.
41:01
S1: And the there is a process too, because Michael and
41:04
S1: Gabriel notice. Hey, there's some going on. Did you see
41:07
S1: what the look on Lucifer's face when it wasn't written
41:10
S1: that way? But, Mark, you show that kind of process
41:13
S1: that it wasn't just something that happened. It was something
41:16
S1: that happened over over time or choices, a series of
41:20
S1: choices that he made. Right?
41:21
S2: Yeah. It was subtle. They would they would pitch things
41:25
S2: at him like they were accustomed to doing as they
41:28
S2: were in awe of who God was and is. And
41:31
S2: one day when they pitched that to Lucifer, he gives
41:35
S2: a very unique answer. And it is a little, we
41:38
S2: would call it a little snarky, a little. There was
41:42
S2: a pause in what he says, and then when he
41:45
S2: walks out of the room, you have Michael and Gabriel going,
41:48
S2: what in the world was that? We've never seen that before.
41:50
S2: Why is he not rejoicing at who God is and
41:54
S2: marveling at his power and grace and abilities? And that's
41:59
S2: kind of what leads you down the path of going, okay,
42:02
S2: something's up here.
42:03
S3: You know, there was a there was a guy on,
42:05
S3: on campus when I was a student here at Moody
42:07
S3: in the 60s. See, Sumner Wemp, he was in charge
42:11
S3: of the practical Christian work assignments and stuff, and he
42:14
S3: would always. His. His common phrase was, Isn't God good?
42:18
S3: And I always thought, well, that's just sort of a
42:21
S3: friendly thing to say. But I realized, and he and
42:24
S3: I talked about it later to him it was a probe.
42:28
S3: How do you respond to that? When I say, isn't
42:30
S3: God good? If somebody says, Amen, yes, yes he is.
42:34
S3: And here's how he's blessing me. Or if they go,
42:37
S3: you know, yeah, God's good. Then he knows something's up
42:40
S3: and he wants to find out what it is. And
42:42
S3: that's basically what they were doing with Lucifer. They were
42:44
S3: basically saying, not in these words, but isn't God good?
42:47
S3: And he's like, is he? Yeah, I guess yeah.
42:51
S1: Uh, Michael says, because he is a spiritual being. I
42:55
S1: never actually see God when we converse in his vast,
42:59
S1: immeasurable throne room, his very presence seems to expand upward
43:04
S1: beyond the boundaries of the structure. A cathedral of crystalline
43:08
S1: light stretching from beneath the throne, smooth and luminous, reflecting
43:13
S1: flashes of lightning, followed by rolling waves of thunder. So
43:17
S1: you're trying to take us into the throne room? My
43:20
S1: question mark is, does the Trinity show up in this novel?
43:25
S2: Yes. And it does that in very unique ways. We
43:28
S2: didn't want to be, uh, forthright, uh, as in, um,
43:34
S2: here's Jesus, here is the Holy Spirit. Do you know
43:36
S2: what I'm saying? We wanted to honor. Yeah, we wanted
43:38
S2: to honor the progression of the text, the Bible, and, um,
43:43
S2: but we want to certainly, uh, acknowledge. So God is
43:47
S2: presented in light and triune colors. There are moments where
43:53
S2: there is a manifestation that in many ways, uh, is
43:59
S2: projected from the light. So there are these hints that again,
44:03
S2: if there are other books to follow, that we will
44:07
S2: be able to take that that true theological teaching and
44:11
S2: see it, uh, birthed throughout the, the text as it
44:15
S2: happens in the Bible too.
44:16
S3: And that passage that you just read, that's, that's so
44:19
S3: good that we're both trying to take credit for that.
44:21
S1: Yeah.
44:23
S6: Okay. So here's another thing that I try to he
44:26
S6: has to train.
44:27
S1: Lucifer has to train his troops. You know, he has
44:29
S1: to go and say, follow me. Follow me. How does
44:32
S1: he train troops in clandestinely when God sees everything he
44:38
S1: can be, he's everywhere. How does he do that, Jerry?
44:42
S3: Take it. Mark. Yeah, that's that's it was a tricky
44:50
S3: thing to write. Um, and, you know, we'd like to
44:53
S3: think that deep down, Lucifer knows that God knows everything
44:56
S3: and is watching everything. But he's trying to take over.
44:58
S3: He wants to to compete for the throne. And so
45:02
S3: he thinks he's going around saying, you know, isn't God
45:05
S3: a needy person to to insist on this praise and worship?
45:09
S3: And aren't we worthy of some of that? And basically
45:12
S3: he's saying, aren't I worthy of that? Yeah.
45:15
S1: Um.
45:16
S6: Okay.
45:17
S1: So and in this version, in the battle for Heaven
45:20
S1: and earth, Mark and Jerry explicitly tell you how long
45:25
S1: creation took. Right? Mark.
45:29
S2: Wrong. Chris.
45:30
S1: Yeah.
45:30
S2: That's right. We know that he is the creator. And
45:33
S2: so we don't get into the that kind of debate.
45:36
S2: But what we wanted to emphasize, which I think comes
45:38
S2: out in the biblical text, is that God is the
45:41
S2: creator God. Creation is a miracle, and we need to
45:45
S2: revel at who he is and what he's done. And
45:48
S2: that's what we tried to emphasize.
45:49
S1: And then the the lengths to which he went to
45:55
S1: make this right, you know, to, to bring us back
45:59
S1: into relationship with him. You know, that's the rest of
46:01
S1: the story.
46:02
S2: You know that Genesis 315 and Genesis 321 are critical
46:07
S2: passages that we get to cover in the novel.
46:10
S1: Congratulations, Jerry. Mark, you've written a lot of books. There's
46:14
S1: so many books, hundreds of books together. Uh, but this one,
46:17
S1: this one looks like there's going to be something. There's
46:20
S1: going to be conversation just like we've had here today
46:23
S1: that are going to follow from this. So thanks for
46:25
S1: being faithful to that. Come back and see us real soon. Okay.
46:28
S3: Thanks, Chris.
46:28
S2: Thanks, man.
46:29
S1: The battle for Heaven and Earth by doctor Mark Yarbro
46:33
S1: Jerry Jenkins. It's our featured resource. You can see links
46:37
S1: to the teaching videos, the soundtrack that's going to come out,
46:41
S1: the Bible studies and more. We have links for you
46:43
S1: right there@cris.org. Our program is a production of Moody Radio,
46:48
S1: a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.