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CLASSIC: That Time Ohio and Michigan Almost Went To War · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous historians. We are returning to you with this week's
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: classic episode special shout out to folks in Ohio aka
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  Speaker 1: the Buckeye State, as well as Michigan. Noel, you've been
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Michigan.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Ben, I have been to Michigan, and you bringing
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  Speaker 2: up the Buckeye State reminded me of a conversation we
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: had just the other day about what a hoosier is.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: It's actually kind of much hotly debated. Some people think
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: it's a connection to the who's here greeting, like who's here?
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  Speaker 1: You know?
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  Speaker 2: And then there's a dude named John Finley who popularized
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  Speaker 2: the term in a poem called the Hoosier's Nest, And
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  Speaker 2: then there are a couple.
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  Speaker 1: Of other reasons.
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  Speaker 2: But the word that I learned, Ben, was a demonym,
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  Speaker 2: which is a word that is used to describe a
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  Speaker 2: native or resident of a particular region. And hoosier is
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  Speaker 2: a demonym. So I'm sorry, I just had to share
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  Speaker 2: that with the class man.
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  Speaker 1: I love you for that. We love a specific word.
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  Speaker 1: English is full of them. Indiana is technically full of hoosiers.
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  Speaker 1: Ohio being the Buckeye State, we learned the etymology of
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  Speaker 1: that as well. In our earlier conversation, are the poisonous nut? Right? Yes,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: a poisonous nut, as some of my ex girlfriends have
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  Speaker 1: described me. We'll keep it. This episode, Noel is about
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  Speaker 1: the time that Ohio and Michigan almost went to actual war. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: over some lakes, some great ones. Indeed, let's roll the tape, y'all.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. State Rivalries. One
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: of my favorite things about traveling around this fair nation
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: of hours is the regardless of what state you find
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: yourself in, you can find another state that most of
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the people in that state hate. So if you go
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: to Alabama, you'll find a lot of people who hate Georgia.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: If you go to Georgia, you'll find a lot of
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: people who hate Alabama. Hi. My name is Ben, Hi,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: my name is Nolan.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: I was just recently in Oregon driving around in a
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: rental car with California plates, and I was counseled that
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: I better tread lightly because that's not a good look.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: And people from Oregon do not cottonto those city slickers
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: from California crossing over into their fair state.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: And here's the problem.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: The car I was in was a big, giant suv,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: so a real hog of the road and it had
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: a tear trigger horn, so I was constantly accidentally honking
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: at people in traffic and get some pretty nasty looks.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Well, listeners, super producer Casey Pegrim, and I can assure
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  Speaker 1: you that that Noel is a responsible driver and you
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: don't just lay on your horn. You know, it's tough
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: when you're driving a rental car. And you're right. You're
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: right about California. A lot of people have been moving
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: to Oregon, especially the western part of the state by
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  Speaker 1: the coast. And when I had spent time in Portland,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: that's one thing everybody got behind. They were like, Oh,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: he's Californians CANi coming in here taking over our state.
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  Speaker 1: Stay on the four O five. So today's story is
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  Speaker 1: a story about state rivalry, but it's not about that
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  Speaker 1: kind of you know, funny. Let's tell a one liner
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  Speaker 1: joke sort of rivalry. What do we mean by one
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  Speaker 1: liner joke? I'll tell an example that makes fun of Georgia.
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  Speaker 1: Since this is our state, of course, we don't want
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  Speaker 1: to offend anybody. So let's say you're in Alabama, you're
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: in Florida, and someone says, hey, did you hear about
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: that hurricane that hit Savannah and they say, no, what happened?
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  Speaker 1: So while it did like millions of dollars worth of improvements,
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  Speaker 1: that's a that's a joke that you hear thrown around
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  Speaker 1: a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Savannah's beautiful city, though, Ben, who would say that about Savannah?
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  Speaker 2: Who would say that? I don't know, jerks, who are
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  Speaker 2: these monsters? Well, they're jokes. Savannah is a town with
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  Speaker 2: a lot of history. It's got a weird vibe.
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  Speaker 1: And there's a like a nuclear weapon lost off the
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  Speaker 1: coast there. Did you know that? I didn't, but I
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  Speaker 1: know there's a lot of ghosts there.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it goes one of those ghosty port towns
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  Speaker 2: like New Orleans.
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  Speaker 1: M And it's oh, man, yeah, we should we should
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: go down there. We should go down there on a
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: ridiculous history field trip. We could do a ghost tour.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: We could do a ghost tour. I think I think
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: it's in the budget. What do you say, let's do it?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Case he are you down for a ghost tour? I'd
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  Speaker 1: love to do that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Savers going to Hawaii, they can at least send
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: us to Savannah for a ghost tour.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: That really Savers a food, lifestyle and travel show. It's
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: also involves food science.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: You check it out if you're at a chance see
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: your friends Lauren Vogel bamb In any race.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Who are going to Hawaii. That is true. I asked
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: them to bring back some spam for me. We'll see.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: You know they still spam here in the States. Yeah,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: but it's different. There are more flavors in Hawaii.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, did you specifically ask for a flavor or just like,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: gimme get weird with it?
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Say give me one that I can't get in the States. Sol.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: It's sort of like all those different flavors of kit
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: kats that you can only get in Japan.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a bag of those if I desk.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I really like the green tea ones. Green tea is good.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I get hipped to banana. Also, Hawaii is, I think,
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  Speaker 1: per capita, the world's largest consumer of spam. Remember when
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: we did an episode on spam with Nanny from Savor and.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: We talked about how they have to keep it under
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: lock and key because it's such a non perishable item
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: that they can just flip it out of their trunks
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: once they you know, do a big spam heist.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I used to have spam in my go bag.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: But the weight ratio is anyway anyway, anyway, State rivals rights,
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  Speaker 1: state rivalries. Today's episode is about a state rivalry. It
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  Speaker 1: is about the fair states of Ohio and Michigan, who
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  Speaker 1: nowadays knowel neither of us are big football fanatics football football, yes,
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  Speaker 1: American football tatics. Yeah, neither of us are huge American
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  Speaker 1: football fanatics. Nowhere near as insane and rabbit about it
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  Speaker 1: as Casey Pegrim is. But even we know that Michigan
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  Speaker 1: and Ohio are famous for how much their college football
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  Speaker 1: teams hate each other.
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  Speaker 2: I only knew it because it says it right here
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  Speaker 2: on this out line. Yeah, that's how you and I
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  Speaker 2: know that that's right. But it's true, and who knows,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, perhaps the rivalry in question today has had
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  Speaker 2: a historical hold on the relationship between these two states
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  Speaker 2: and has you know, I would say a football rivalry
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  Speaker 2: or a little healthy joshing around between you know, rough
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  Speaker 2: and tumble footballers, is a lot healthier and safer than
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  Speaker 2: what has been described as the Till War, a clash
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  Speaker 2: between Ohiolands. And I'm gonna go with my favorite Michiganders
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  Speaker 2: because in our research material. Sometimes it says Michiganians, and
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  Speaker 2: sometimes I Michiganders.
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  Speaker 1: Michigan Michiganders.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, right in any Michigan folk, let us know what
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  Speaker 2: ones you prefer. But this conflict took place in eighteen
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  Speaker 2: thirty five, and it had to do with the fact
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  Speaker 2: that both Ohio, which was a state at the time,
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  Speaker 2: and Michigan, which was not yet a state at the time,
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  Speaker 2: both thought they owned this little strip of land. It's
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  Speaker 2: almost like a gaza strip kind of situation between two
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  Speaker 2: warring nations, only this case it's you know, there's there's
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  Speaker 2: states in a state, in a not quite yet state,
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  Speaker 2: and there's this little strip of land between them that
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  Speaker 2: each of them feel like they have a claim to,
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  Speaker 2: right right.
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  Speaker 1: This was a long time in coming, and it's a
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  Speaker 1: it's based on a series of misunderstandings. First off, I
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  Speaker 1: love the name Toledo War. It sounds like it's the
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  Speaker 1: name of an album. In seventeen eighty seven, the US
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  Speaker 1: Congress drafted what they called the Northwest Ordinance, and the
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  Speaker 1: Northwest Ordinance said that two hundred and sixty thousand square
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  Speaker 1: miles of territory around the Great Lakes would be carved
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  Speaker 1: into a handful of states. The law also said that
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  Speaker 1: the border between Ohio and Michigan was to run on
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  Speaker 1: a quote east and west line drawn through the southerly
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  Speaker 1: bend or extreme of Lake Michigan until it intersected with
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  Speaker 1: Lake Erie. However, they did a bad job. They did
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  Speaker 1: a piss poor job because the problem is that the
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  Speaker 1: maps they had were wrong. Lake Michigan's southern tip on
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  Speaker 1: the map, one of the best maps at the time
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  Speaker 1: that they used, which was called the Mitchell Map. You
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  Speaker 1: can look it up today. The Lake Michigan that was
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  Speaker 1: on the map was actually several miles north of where
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  Speaker 1: it is in the world or on the planet. And
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  Speaker 1: so so Congress got it wrong and they didn't know
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  Speaker 1: in a minute Congress did what Yeah, I know, I know.
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  Speaker 1: I thought they were infallible. It was the one time
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  Speaker 1: Congress got it wrong, and they didn't know that they
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  Speaker 1: got it wrong until eighteen o two years and years later,
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  Speaker 1: And it was because of a fur trapper who said, hey, guys,
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  Speaker 1: actually got the line wrong. This is going to come
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  Speaker 1: back to bite you in the future. Listen to me.
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  Speaker 1: I'm I'm a trapper. Professionally, I'm telling you you guys
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  Speaker 1: are trapping yourselves and how did they react? Well, we
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  Speaker 1: know it wasn't resolved. Well, first of all, I got
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  Speaker 1: I got a backtrack slightly.
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  Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, did this fur trapper with
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  Speaker 2: you know, just just waltz into Congress and announce these findings.
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  Speaker 2: Say hey, hey, you guys, it's me Raoul the fur Trapper.
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  Speaker 2: I got something to tell you. Or was he employed
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  Speaker 2: by them? Was he sent to what's the word survey
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  Speaker 2: the land? Because the surveyors come in a little later.
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  Speaker 2: Sorry if I'm getting caught up in semantics here, I
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  Speaker 2: just can't pick sure. Raoul the fur Trapper just waltzing
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  Speaker 2: into Connor and saying, listen here, this is going to
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  Speaker 2: be a real problem.
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  Speaker 1: He did. I like the name Raoul, and we don't
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  Speaker 1: have the exact name for this guy. Apparently delegates from
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  Speaker 1: the Ohio Constitutional Convention received reports from him, so he
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  Speaker 1: did not stroll into the halls of Federal Congers.
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  Speaker 2: I see, he had a correspondence going on with him.
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  Speaker 2: He was some in some form their representative, and he
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  Speaker 2: had he had a lot of stuff going on already.
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  Speaker 1: You know what I mean. He can't watch every falling
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  Speaker 1: sparrow or border dispute. But you said, you said there
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  Speaker 1: there was another important thing happening here, which is that
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  Speaker 1: these territories, these areas around the lakes were not states.
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  Speaker 1: Ohio finally became a state in what eighteen oh three,
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  Speaker 1: and so Ohio said, when it became a state, it
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  Speaker 1: specified something about this border in its constitution. So the
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  Speaker 1: fur trapper says, the line I actually falls south of
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  Speaker 1: the Maumi River, and Ohio says, we own the land
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  Speaker 1: around this no matter what future surveys show. And then
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  Speaker 1: the Michigan Territory is formed and the government of the
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  Speaker 1: Michigan Territory says, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Ohio, watch yourself,
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  Speaker 1: because that Mitchell map is wrong. We have newer, better
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  Speaker 1: maps and they show that this region is ours. This
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  Speaker 1: is Michigan Territory, so step off seriously.
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  Speaker 2: So things only got worse because in the eighteen tens
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  Speaker 2: they sent a pair of land.
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  Speaker 1: Surveyors well actually I guess one from each.
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  Speaker 2: Side, yeah yeah, yeah, one from each side, and of
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  Speaker 2: course they came to two different conclusions no way, yeah yeah,
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  Speaker 2: about the location where this border would be. And that's
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  Speaker 2: when this strip became a thing, this gaza strip esque
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  Speaker 2: area of land a four hundred and sixty eight square
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  Speaker 2: mile slice known as the Toledo Strip that was officially
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  Speaker 2: being claimed very aggressively actually, as it would turn out,
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  Speaker 2: by both Ohio and what was then called the Michigan Territory.
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  Speaker 1: So, okay, sure, maps get things wrong. People are fallible.
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  Speaker 1: Can't they just sit down together and work it out? Well,
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  Speaker 1: they could if it were an arbitrary mistake. The problem
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  Speaker 1: is they both have skin in the game. They both
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  Speaker 1: have a horse in the race. They both want a
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  Speaker 1: badger in the bag here, because they wanted to control
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  Speaker 1: this area that it would later become Toledo and the river.
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  Speaker 1: You see. By eighteen twenty five, the completion of the
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Erie Canal linked the Great Lakes to the east coast
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  Speaker 1: Ecteamo on the Arico.
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  Speaker 2: Now that one, Yeah, it's an all song kind of
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: like in the company store. We're trying to ground it
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: and like you know lore, Yeah, and folks, folks, folks songs.
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  Speaker 1: Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: No, this is very, very very valuable position to hold
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  Speaker 2: in terms of trade. Right, yeah, absolutely, you're absolutely right.
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  Speaker 2: So Toledo at this point is a growing village. It's
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  Speaker 2: the largest port on Lake Erie's western side, and that
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  Speaker 2: means it could be a financial windfall. So of course
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  Speaker 2: both Michigan and Ohio want to tighten their grip on it.
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  Speaker 2: And just like just like the border disputes we see
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  Speaker 2: in more recent years, they try a number of things
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  Speaker 2: right to legitimize their claim, both in the eyes of
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  Speaker 2: the people living there and in terms of just pure infrastructure.
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  Speaker 2: So the Michigan territory, because still not a state yet,
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  Speaker 2: is constructing roads, it's sending people on purpose to live
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  Speaker 2: there to sort of take over the land. It's holding election,
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  Speaker 2: it's collecting taxes. Really put in the cart before the
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  Speaker 2: old horse, there isn't it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, like a boots flexing that claim, right. It is
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  Speaker 1: not an ethical way to gain territory. It is an
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  Speaker 1: unfortunately common way that human beings have done this in
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  Speaker 1: the past and the modern day. Just say like, let's
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  Speaker 1: if we send enough of quote unquote our people to
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  Speaker 1: a place that we don't own and have them live there,
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  Speaker 1: but eventually it's ours.
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  Speaker 2: This isn't the moon, you know. This isn't like a
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  Speaker 2: far removed location. This isn't a colony that is completely
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  Speaker 2: disconnected from day to day life. This is a very
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  Speaker 2: small strip of land right between these two places where
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  Speaker 2: presumably human beings live, and it became very evident that
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  Speaker 2: both sides wanted to protect their claim physically if necessary.
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  Speaker 1: Right, right, and Ohio. Ohio tries a different strategy. They're
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  Speaker 1: doing some of the same things the Michigan territory, but
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  Speaker 1: Ohio is already a state, so they have a pretty
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  Speaker 1: pretty significant advantage. They go to Washington like that fur
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  Speaker 1: trapper who never made it. Yeah. Right, Well, so they
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: go to the halls of federal power and they say, look,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: a deal is a deal, is a deal. When we
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: became a state, we put this in our instruction manual
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: or their constitution. Rather, you guys screwed up. You guys
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: screwed up. That's not on us. Toledo is and will
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  Speaker 1: always be a part of Ohio as God intended it.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, in the early eighteen thirties, members of Congress
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  Speaker 1: from Ohio blocked a Michigan petition for statehood and tried
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  Speaker 1: to hold the Toledo strip, which they called it a hostage,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: and they said, look, you can't be a state. They
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: didn't say give up Toledo. They said unless you admit
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  Speaker 1: that Toledo is ours. I mean, if we're being honest here,
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  Speaker 1: it's pretty scrappy of non state Michigan here, the way
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  Speaker 1: they're flexing on this claim, knowing that they themselves don't
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  Speaker 1: even have statehood yet, and that they're poking the bear
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  Speaker 1: in more ways than one. Right, Yeah, exactly. In eighteen
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  Speaker 1: thirty three, the US becomes divided on the issue the
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: entirety of Congress. So the Senate says, okay, we're team Ohio.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: We side with Ohio. But the House of Representatives says, well, well, like,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: we're not just going to go along with you, guys.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: And then people say, Stevens Mason. That's his name, Stevens,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: that's Stevens.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: We're gonna get into some other really amazing names in
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: this story later, but yeah, Stephens Mason.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the governor of the Michigan Territory again still
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  Speaker 1: not a state. And he says, hey, look, let's get
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: a commission together to try to work this out. I
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: think it's so funny, Stevens Mason. It should be flipped.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: It should be Mason Stevens. Yeah. It's the last name,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: first name, first name, last name vibe very like more
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: than one. I have a I have a good friend
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: whose name is Jame. He's just like what one James.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Well, that was the name of Buffalo Bill in the
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Sounds of the Lambs movie.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: His name was Jame. Gum, isn't that right? Casey Goodbye Horses,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: That's right. Oh I thought it was James. No, it
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: was Jame. Oh weird. I just rewatched the chase scene
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: from that.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: I just rewatched the.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: The mirror scene, the case, not the mirror see. Of course, the.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Mirror se That's the most iconic moment from that movie.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: That's the one part everyone remembers. Good Bye Horses and
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: the mirror scene.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I I remember the lotion on the skin part. That's
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: also a good one. Did you know Anthony Hopkins is
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: only in that movie like fourteen or fifteen minutes? Oh?
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah's hes a, he's a I mean, but it's
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: it's a very powerful fourteen or fifteen minutes.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: It's true, uh speak powerful powerful fourteen or fifteen minutes.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: We have to wonder how long Governor Robert Lucas of
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Ohio took to evaluate Mason's appeal. Not that long. He
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: pretty much instantly refused it. He said, we do not negotiate,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: and then he said, furthermore, in eighteen thirty five. This
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: is when everything started to go really off the rails.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: He said, We're going to form our own county on
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: the Toledo Strips. Now, don't call it the Toledo Strip now,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: it's Lucas County, Ohio. Yeah.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: And then Michigan flexes back against against Ohio, against Lucas
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: and acts this series of laws called the Pains and
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Penalties Acts. And that's in February of eighteen thirty five,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: a law that said anyone found hanging out in said
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: strip that supported Ohio could be sent to jail for
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: up to five years and find a grand which at
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: the time would have been equivalent to about twenty five
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars. So Mason gets a thousand men a militia
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and stations them right inside of this area. And then Lucas,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe having access to fear men or thinking
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: that it wasn't that big a deal because they, you know,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: we're big old state boys, sent six hundred men just
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: to make sure that there wasn't some sort of like
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: out and out blood bath.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: This is looking bad, really is oh Also, we should
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: mention the governor of the not quite a state, Michigan territory.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Stevens Mason. He is twenty three years old.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Don't they call him the boy King or something like that, Golden,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: the Boy Governor, the boy Governor.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah. So so now we have military forces
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: moving in and this weird hearts and minds law supporting
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the state of Ohio. What does that mean? That can
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: mean anything from being an official of the county they
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: proposed Lucas County to say, Hey, I live in Toledo
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: and I'm in Ohio.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: And also it's got that very kind of like gestapoy
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: kind of idea of like what if you're just caught
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: paling around with somebody from the other side. You know
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: what if someone names n and you're one of the names,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: what gets name?
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Next thing? You know, you're sitting in the clink for
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: five years and you're you know, one thousand dollars in
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: debt which will be incredibly difficult to pay off. So
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: the federal government tries to get these people to get along,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: despite the fact they're already active militias in the area.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: So on April ninth, eighteen thirty five, a posse led
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: by a sheriff from Michigan rode into Toledo, and they
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: did just what they were talking about. They arrested several
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: state officials from Ohio and then newspapers who you imagine
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: have to have loved the headline potential here. Newspapers said
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: that an Ohio flag was torn down, dragged through the streets,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: and burned. People are poed. Really a lawless.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Zone here, you know, because no one knows who's in charge,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: so everyone's kind of in charge, or it's kind I mean,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: it really is like a Wild West.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Gone situation, but just in this little strip. So it escalates.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: My friend involves another sheriff from Michigan, this time a
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: man named Joseph Wood, who attempts to enforce this pain
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: and Penalties Act by arresting Major Benjamin Stickney, loving that
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: name because he voted in an Ohio election.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: And this is fantastic the names. This is the name
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Dickney's sons, who are named one Stickney and two Stickney
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: like the numbers O N E T W O. Yeah.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: They join in with their pops Stickney Sr. And they
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: resist being arrested, and they they stab sheriff would with.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: A pocket knife, but not fatally. No, it's a it's
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: a but a flesh wound. Really right, tis only a scratch?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: This but a scratch? Uh, funny story. I've got a
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I had a great aunt whose name was nine. Really,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. I like the idea of numbers for names.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Me too, I met I met a dude named seven
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: and he was so cool. He was not related to me.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I only have one number name in my family. I
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: like the name four. You like the name four? Huh?
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: I mean six? A character on Blossom? There's six Smith
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: in Cloud Atlas. Oh, okay, I haven't seen that. Yeah,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm partially for some reason, I'm partial
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: to odd numbers for names. This has nothing to do
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: with Michigan. In Ohio's Toledo War, what do you think
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: is a great number for a name?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: There was a character named six on Blossom and he
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: was six Lemeur played by oh Jenna von Oi.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Another great name. These are great names. Yeah, I would
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: go with a I would go with a nine or
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: maybe a three. Yeah, I would go with the name three. Casey,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: do you have a number that you you think would
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: make a good name? Twenty seven? I knew you were
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: gonna Okay, Casey on the case he's thought about it, folks,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: He's thought about this lot. So this is the first
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: violent physical altercation when the Michigan Sheriff Joseph Wood and
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Benjamin Stickney and co. Get beefed up, and now Sheriff
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Wood is remembered as the one injury casualty in the
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Toledo War. So the Ohio Governor Lucas announced his intentions
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: to hold the court session in Toledo. So they were
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: gonna hold a session in a court.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Of law, like I said, like a hearing kind of, right, yeah,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: kind of like a kangaroo court.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: It's not like he's going to have a stunning plot twist.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Karoo courts just seems so cute and fun to me idea,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: but they're not at all. No, They're very railroady and
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: sort of a mockery of justice, right, right. Do you
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: know where that comes from? A lot of people think
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: it comes from Australia.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Predictably because the only not just to stereotype because of kangaroos.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I would have thought it maybe came from the fact
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: that it was a penal colony, right, and maybe you know,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: it was the idea of giving someone not a fair
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: trial and throwing them onto a penal colony.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Is that not true? It's it's not true, which is
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: weird because it's it's something I believe for years too.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: The first published instance of the term kangaroo court comes
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: from nineteen or eighteen fifty three rather, and it may
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: have been popularized during the California gold Rush because a
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: lot of Australians went to the California gold Rush and
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: then they would have, you know, accusations of claim jumping,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: so claim jumping and hastily proceeding through the legal system,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: perhaps by leaps and bounds like a kangaroo. That's right.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, they may leap and bound, right, so
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: they would jump over or ignore evidence that would be
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: in favor of the defendant. But people don't really know.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: That's just another theory. I think the most widely believed
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: one is the penal colony, but apparently that's the timing
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: doesn't work out. Ben.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I just went down a bit of a mini internet
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: rabbit hole when I was looking into the origins of
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: kangaroo courts, and I discovered that in Germany, the Third
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Reich would hold their versions of kangaroo courts, and you
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: know what they were called.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Ben what were they called. They were called the People's Court,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: but not with Judge Wapner. I think I've seen this. Yeah,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: you know what show I missed as well. I watched,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I listened to the I listened to the intro theme
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: song for it all the time. Night Court. I'll probably
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: never actually watch Night Court. It probably hasn't aged well
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: since Dan Fielding is pretty much in a Sexual Predator.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but but that intro music is so great.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I wish we could play it anyhow. So he has
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: this kind of fake court set up to supposedly legitimize
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Ohio's claim. This is the governor. This is the Governor
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Lucas of Ohio, and the boy Gov Stevens. Mason's hears
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: about this, and he marches twelve hundred militiamen called Wolverines
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: onto the Toledo Strip and they are prepared, the Michiganders,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: to use violent force to stop this court session from
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: taking place. They get there on September seventh of eighteen
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: thirty five, and then they find out they have been outsmarted.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: It's true because the Ohioans had already done these court
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: proceedings in secret at the witching hour. It was a
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: midnight court session and then just booked it out of
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: there because they didn't want to get slaughtered right right.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: So, according to history dot com, the court incident marked
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: the last gasp of armed hostilities in the Toledo War.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Uncle Sam's representatives say, hey, Ohio, Michigan, why don't you
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: guys jointly govern the territory until Congress can make a
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: permanent decision on the issue. Ohio says, all right, cool, dope,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: let's do that. But at the same time, while they
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: said that was okay, they authorized three hundred thousand dollars
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: to the Ohio militia to seize the territory if Michigan
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: said no. And Michigan said no, so the Ohio militia
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: moved to the south bank of the river and faced
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: off with Michigan's military on the north side. And then
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: the president had had enough. Andrew Jackson, president at the time,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: said this is bonkers. This is bananas, this is malarkey.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I am removing slash firing the boy governor. Ooh, how
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: do you do that?
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: That's a bit of a legal reach, isn't it just
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: to say I unequivocally, as the President, remove you from
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: your duly elected office. Didn't seem like that would go
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: over very well. And then installm and to install my guy.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Right, that's right. It does seem like an overreach of
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: you know, but that's what happened, and Mason was replaced
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: by a fellow named John Horner. John Horner, I don't
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: know if we would say completely mended the offences, but
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: he worked with the Ohio governor to reach a okay
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: conclusion to the dispute, and Ohio was happy. The people
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: of Michigan were not. They hated this guy. They despised him.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: They would see him in the street and verbally abuse him.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: They hanged effigies of him on multiple occasions, and they
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: immediately voted Stevens. Mason, the boy governor, back into office.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: So this debate raged on, and a lot of it
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: focused on Michigan's you know, ongoing plea to be made
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: a state. And that was really the deciding factor here
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: because on December fourteenth, eighteen thirty six, Michigan did eventually
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: accept a congressional compromise and they said, okay, we will
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: give up the Toledo Strip if we are admitted to
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: the Union as the twenty sixth state. And with that
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Toledo became part of the state of Ohio. Michigan didn't
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: just give that up for statehood. They also got some
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: land right in the upper Peninsula.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's between Lake Michigan and Lake Superior. The thing is,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: though the Michiganers weren't super thrilled about this.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: They thought it was kind of.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: A raw deal because the Detroit Free Press at the
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: time had categorized this Upper peninsular area as a barren
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: waste land of perpetual snows. But you know, as history
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: has a tendency to do, kind of softened things a
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: little bit when they discovered some precious mineable materials in
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: the form of copper and iron ore. So it turned
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: out to be not a not a bad trade, not
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: a complete wash.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: And there we have it, folks. The Toledo War, nowadays
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: is remembered as the most ferocious conflict in Ohio Michigan history,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: even worse than the college football rivalries. But this was
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: not the last time the states clash over their borders.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: These folks have legitimate boundary issues. The precise location of
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: their land boundary was still a constant subject of contention
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: argument until nineteen fifteen. They had to have a new
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: government survey, and the governors celebrated the resolution by shaking
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: hands across the border. See and in nineteen sixty five
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: the lieutenant governors repeated the ceremony.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: That's nice, like many hands across America thing hey, and
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: here will come full circle. You know, there were occasional
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: legal battles between the states up until nineteen seventy three,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: when a Supreme Court ruling resolved any claims to the
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: waters of Eerie. Now those tensions, as historical tensions are
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: pretty much dealt with in those college football rivalries we
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: talked about at the top of the.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Show, the Toledo War. There you have it. So this
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: ends today's episode, but not our show. We would love
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: to hear some of your favorite stories of state rivalries
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: in the US, or you know, country rivalries, county province
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: rivalries anywhere throughout the world, because as we know, at
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: least here in the States, it's a huge ongoing issue
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: and every state has at least one other state that
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: they despise for one reason or another. You can let
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: us know on our email. We are ridiculous at iHeartRadio
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Instagram and You
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: can find us, most importantly your fellow listeners on our
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can check us out individually on Instagram
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: if you like, follow our various exploits.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: I am at embryonic insider. I am at Ben Bolin
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: with a lot of stuff on there that's probably gonna
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: ruin my political ambitions later in life.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Oh surely not, Ben, surely not. You're just a full
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: human person, very rich life experiences.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: That's very kind. I, like many people do, try to
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: emulate Casey Pegram Oh, speaking of that guy, Hey, Casey,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: thanks so much for, as always, saving the show. We'd
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: also like to thank Gabe, our research associate.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: I would like to thank Alex Williams who composed our theme,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Christopher Hasiotis who is here in spirit, and Jonathan Stricklam
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: the Quister, and as usual, Ben Bolland thanks to you
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: for being a friend and all the other lyrics to
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: the Golden Girl theme that I will never never remember.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Why don't you ever remember it's a great song.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: You said it wasn't that great a song, and it's
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: the full song is not great, But the TV version
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: just for the intro is spot off. Pretty heartwarming, especially
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: when paired with the you know clips of these women
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: and their anti It really does warm the cockles.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: And I'm gonna say this even though it's late and
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: we probably should have said it earlier. You know, it's
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: here in the US. Mother's Day happened this weekend, and
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks to all the moms listening. Yes,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: thanks to everyone with the mom. And you know, if
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you didn't get a chance, you didn't get a chance
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: to call her. This is maybe a week a week
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: late now that you're hearing this, but if you didn't
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: get a chance to say hello, just just give her
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: a ring, drop by and see her. We both hung out, well,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: all three of us hung out with our moms recently
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: and had a heck of a time. No, my mom
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: even almost came to my improv show, which was a
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: weird flex Ben.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I would have come to your improv show as well
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: if I wasn't already entertaining my mom and daughter.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: You know, and my daughter's ten.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think the improv stuff you guys would have
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: don would have been quite age appropriate her. But very soon,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: when she's I'm going to say thirteen, you can go
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: to our first improv show.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, all of us listening now who have ever done
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: improv know that it can be it can be tiresome
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: to continually invite your friends to improv. So never feel,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: you know, we improvise enough together on the show, Noll.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Never feel obligated or anything other than invited to that
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: kind of that kind of outside of workstick you know
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: what I mean, I do.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows,