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Start Me Up: Political Strategist Maya Rupert · Start Me Up with Kimberley A. Johnson

0:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Start Me Up podcast part of MSW Media and the sexy liberal podcast network.
0:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Kimberly Johnson in DC.
0:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited.
0:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Today I'm going to be talking with Maya Rupert.
0:26
[SPEAKER_00]: She's a political strategist, author, and a former presidential campaign manager.
0:30
[SPEAKER_00]: She's joining us to discuss her new book, The Real Wands, and what we get wrong about authenticity and politics.
0:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really looking forward to this conversation, but before we get into it.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The start-me-up podcast is independent and woman-run.
0:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I offer a show every Tuesday just for patrons called What's Up, where I get a little more personal and talk about whatever's on my mind.
0:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I also offer an ad free tier with a much shorter intro.
0:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Just visit patreon.com
0:56
[SPEAKER_00]: slash start me up.
0:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at the different tiers and support the show today.
1:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Now please enjoy my conversation with political strategist Maya Rupert.
1:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the show Maya.
1:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.
1:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're a really interesting woman.
1:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, um, haha.
1:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very excited to talk to you.
1:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a book out that we're going to discuss.
1:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But before we get into it, I did a little intro.
1:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want you to tell everybody who you are, talk a little bit about your book, which we'll get more into.
1:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But just tell everybody who you are.
1:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, I'm my a group or I am the Executive Vice President at Blue State, which is a creative consulting firm where we work with candidates and organizations, social justice organizations, which is fitting because that has largely been my career.
1:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I spent most of my career in social justice movement politics.
1:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Really until 2020, where I shifted into a electoral work, I managed who the young Castro's presidential campaign in 2020.
1:56
[SPEAKER_01]: When we withdrew, I went to become a senior advisor for Senator Warren for the rest of her presidential campaign.
2:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And then since then, I've run campaigns at various levels worked with and advised the number of different candidates.
2:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel very fortunate because
2:12
[SPEAKER_01]: when I was working in social justice work and as I've worked in electoral work, I feel like I've gotten to follow sort of the same North Star and it's really I've been able to work on behalf of, I mean, people and sort of a pursuit of justice, which is you know, the same thing gets to sort of animate me regardless of the way I'm doing the work, which is really important to me.
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: As you mentioned, I did just write a book, it came out in
2:39
[SPEAKER_01]: essentially the book is about authenticity, both in the political sphere but broader than that.
2:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And basically I talk about the ways that authenticity, our popular conception of it, doesn't always feel very familiar or real to a lot of us and it's about sort of getting to a concept of authenticity that feels more approachable for more people.
3:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha.
3:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now I'm going to ask you a funny question here.
3:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know Stephanie Walton?
3:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Stephanie Dominguez Walton.
3:12
[SPEAKER_01]: the name is not bringing about.
3:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason I ask is because she was totally into Julianne Castro and she works for, she worked for Planned Parenthood.
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe she does anymore.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, I think she met him several times.
3:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just, I thought maybe you know her.
3:25
[SPEAKER_00]: She's been on the show.
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: She's one of the best friends.
3:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, that's amazing.
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I bet I bet we didn't meet each other and I'm just not making the connection right now.
3:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so, that's great.
3:36
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
3:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I want to read here in the description that I found for your book, which by the way, I just want to tell everybody upfront, I did not read the book.
3:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I was introduced to you by somebody else.
3:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I haven't had time to read the book, but I am interested in, and it's so fascinating.
3:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I want to ask you, because I read this part of the description.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It says, one of my arooports earliest memories was learning how to be inauthentic.
4:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That performance, the ability to make white people feel comfortable about race has brought her
4:06
[SPEAKER_00]: everything from safety to success.
4:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So I want you to talk about that because I think that's fascinating extremely timely and, you know, please tell us.
4:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Or yeah, I think it's an interesting dynamic and I think it's one that is familiar for a lot of us.
4:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I talk about this in terms of race that one of the things I grew up in a predominantly white area and I learned early on that
4:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There were things I needed to do in order to make white people feel comfortable to make race a less salient thing about me and therefore prevent things from getting awkward or someone from saying the wrong thing.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I took that on as my responsibility as a young person in a way that I think a lot of people have marginalized identities learn how to be.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: sort of to present a version of yourself that makes people with the dominant gaze feel more comfortable.
5:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, then you get acceptance.
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: People don't feel uncomfortable.
5:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps you to navigate certain spaces until you get success.
5:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You get to a point in your life in your career where you got somewhere because of that ability that like,
5:28
[SPEAKER_01]: be authentic, be your true self.
5:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, how, how would I do that?
5:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But, too, for those of us who learned this stuff early on, as we were asking the question of who am I?
5:43
[SPEAKER_01]: The parallel question is, who do I need to be?
5:47
[SPEAKER_01]: There what I sort of described in the book is what I call this feeling of unrealness is that it's like, was there a real me that ever developed that wasn't conscious of that outside need because when we talk about authenticity, what we tell each other and ourselves is authenticity is it's who you are when you're not worried about who you have to be.
6:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
6:09
[SPEAKER_01]: What if that, who you have to be, is core to how you develop?
6:13
[SPEAKER_01]: What if it was such a piece of your identity that without the external forces, you didn't develop in the same way?
6:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that mean I'm inherently fake?
6:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it mean that in order to be the real me, I have to go back and unlearn those things that for me are central pieces of the development of being a black woman.
6:35
[SPEAKER_01]: how do I say to myself, well, in order to be, quote, unquote, authentic, you need to ignore all of that when that's part of what made me.
6:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think it's unique to race.
6:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that there are people who have other marginalized identities that have these conversations with people in other contexts where people express the same, that same concern.
6:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes out with women of any race, I think it comes out with queer folks like I think these are issues that people grapple with.
7:04
[SPEAKER_01]: If there is an identity that makes you other, that there is an incentive to play that down, to be somebody that can navigate the dominant space.
7:16
[SPEAKER_01]: At some point, there is this grappling that you need to deal with with the concept of authenticity.
7:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we live in a world where authenticity is such a currency, like people, it's like the baseline.
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything is supposed to be authentic.
7:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We ask the question constantly and politics.
7:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the table stakes if you want to run for office.
7:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone says, We need to be authentic.
7:37
[SPEAKER_01]: that doesn't feel like a real and accessible concept to you.
7:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It is very disoriented.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was really, that's what prompted me to want to write the book.
7:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so fascinating and like when you were talking, I had like 35 questions that I know I'm going to forget all of them, but one of the things that was standing out to me, um,
7:57
[SPEAKER_00]: there's this woman that I watch.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I like her and I watch her a little bit out of fascination, but she's on YouTube and she's one of those women.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you're familiar with the Tread wife community and she I would say started out as a very traditional kind of a wife however she did work outside the home her her YouTube started.
8:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get to my point in a second but her YouTube started because
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: She was married, she had a job, and a baby, and she had to go to back to work very quickly.
8:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was looking on YouTube to find blogs or vlogs, I should say, about other single mothers who are doing it, and she couldn't find any social media at her own.
8:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, now this woman is white, and she is a Christian, believe she's Catholic.
8:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's pretty much, at the time, when this was several years ago, she definitely fell into the category of the Trag Wife,
8:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Now she's divorced.
8:53
[SPEAKER_00]: She's still working.
8:55
[SPEAKER_00]: She does her own YouTube channel and she also has a job, but what I thought was so interesting was several years ago when she was still married.
9:03
[SPEAKER_00]: She would talk like a little girl.
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, no, she was a school teacher, so I, and a school teacher for very young children, so I think that she ought like naturally has that way about her, but at the same time, you know, no, she's about 39 and I think back then she was maybe like 29 something like that.
9:25
[SPEAKER_00]: but the difference is so unbelievable because like you're bringing up this thing about, you know, being your authentic South and 10 years ago, she was kind of doing baby talk to the audience.
9:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And now that she's divorced and a single mother and taking care of business all by herself, she doesn't sound like a baby anymore.
9:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just let that was kind of interesting and I wanted to throw that out.
9:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's such an amazing concept for a book and I never thought about it that way, but you're a hundred percent right, and I mean, I've done it in my life.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a white woman, but I've still had to please the patriarchy.
10:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to be an actress, so I had a needing disorder.
10:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I understand what you're saying, but I've never heard anybody write about it like that.
10:11
[SPEAKER_00]: What, let's see, how can I ask this question?
10:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you argue that it's misunderstood.
10:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So be a little bit more specific.
10:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Could you be more specific, I should say, in how people misunderstand,
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: that, you know, to be authentic.
10:27
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the misunderstanding there?
10:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And what can we do about it?
10:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think, I mean, I would say one of the arguments that I make in the book is that in politics, I think that the concept of political authenticity is actually not even a real thing.
10:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that what we're asking for whenever you ask somebody, like someone will say, like, I want a politician that's authentic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The real important question is, what's the answer to the next?
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[SPEAKER_01]: question, like, what do you mean by that?
10:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we mean 50 different things and therefore we really mean nothing.
10:59
[SPEAKER_01]: If I say I want someone to be authentic, but I allow them, for example, to be a liar, what does that really mean?
11:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think Donald Trump presents a really great example of someone that I hear over and over again, even from people who don't like him.
11:16
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll
11:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's from people who think he's a liar, but he comes across as authentic, well a lot of times what really people are saying is it's very clear to me He's not reading talking points.
11:33
[SPEAKER_01]: He kind of says says whatever comes to the top of his mind.
11:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but is that something you really want in a politician?
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's it.
11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we just started using it, but because it is such a loaded term, we say we want someone who's authentic.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Donald Trump gets to check a box.
11:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though the people that are saying it about him don't, are not actually complimenting him in any way.
11:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is that a baseline thing that you need to be able to show as a politician?
12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Likewise, why is it that somebody who uses talking points more consistently, or is less comfortable in a free-wheeling conversation?
12:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is that person red is inauthentic?
12:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We saw this a lot in 24.
12:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Donald Trump and Kamala Harris could stand next to each other at a debate, and Donald Trump could lie consistent, but sort of speak very clearly extemporaneously.
12:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And Kamala Harris could speak using talking point to be harder used before, and people would say he came across as more authentic, even though he was lying.
12:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he got facts wrong, when he said whatever, the next day,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Press would excuse it.
12:47
[SPEAKER_01]: They did what they called to say people started calling it sane washing.
12:50
[SPEAKER_01]: He could say whatever.
12:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And then press would somehow make a way for it to have sounded better.
12:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But when Kamala Harris speaks and she miss states of fact, she gets fact checked.
13:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a question of, well, does she know the policy?
13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Was she in those meetings?
13:07
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a difference between the way they are metabolized when they say these things.
13:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a result, there's going to be a difference in the way they present themselves.
13:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, then what are we really doing if we call authenticity the willingness to speak off the
13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: when we know that a white man gets treated differently as a black woman, if they ever misbeap or say the wrong thing.
13:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, when we hold them to different standards, obviously, one will feel more comfortable doing that than another.
13:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And if we say that's what authenticity is, what are we doing besides reinforcing an already existing idea about who's electable and who's not?
13:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So, is there,
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[SPEAKER_00]: quality that matters more than authenticity in politics.
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's it.
13:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what people what are people really asking for?
14:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's people want honesty.
14:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they want genuineness.
14:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what they're asking for a lot of times is I want to know that the things that you say in public are the things that you say in private.
14:13
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a desire for consistency.
14:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But even that,
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: do you want someone who has had the exact same views for the past 30 years?
14:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you want someone who has evolved in grown?
14:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, when we don't define authenticity, you can say someone's authentic because, well, he's been saying the same thing consistently.
14:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And it seems like, you know, she's changed where she is on certain positions.
14:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Well,
14:41
[SPEAKER_01]: do we really want somebody who hasn't changed where they are for several years right so I think that's it.
14:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I what I think when we talk when I talk to candidates focusing less on whatever this arbitrary definition of authenticity is when the goal posts are constantly changing.
15:00
[SPEAKER_01]: focus on being real.
15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Be who you are and do what you can to communicate that to voters.
15:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And that often means getting rid of the gatekeepers and speaking, finding ways to speak to voters directly.
15:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there is more of an emphasis on, you know, people, we used to have more of a tolerance for this.
15:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We understood what a stump speech was.
15:21
[SPEAKER_01]: We understood what talking points was.
15:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We knew that these politicians would say the same thing at a number of different places.
15:28
[SPEAKER_01]: voters don't want that anymore.
15:29
[SPEAKER_01]: They want to feel like this is an organic discussion.
15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So fine ways for those organic discussions, but do it in a way that is not going to require you to perform authenticity on someone else's, on someone else's yardstick, right?
15:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think
15:47
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the examples I have, and I keep kind of warning people about this, is more and more I hear Democrats saying, you know, Democrats need to go on some of these podcasts, and invariably the podcasts that you cite are like, the like, Manosphere.
16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: These guys who have these podcasts, it's like, go on there and talk to people who disagree with you.
16:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, sure, I think it's important to get in front of people who don't agree with you.
16:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think it's artificial to pretend that the oven and Joe Rogan and so many of these guys created audiences that are going to hear
16:27
[SPEAKER_01]: of woman candidate come on and speak, the same way they're going to hear a male.
16:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And it come on and speak.
16:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not the same thing.
16:34
[SPEAKER_01]: They created audiences that were, I mean, they kind of prided themselves on being anti-woke.
16:41
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole idea was, we want to be able to come on and say what we want and not have to worry about political correctness and defending people.
16:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, then that's going to be an audience that isn't going to hear.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:52
[SPEAKER_01]: from everyone the exact same way.
16:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not shocking to me that the people that have gone on those spaces and impressed people have been white guys.
17:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Look great, go on them.
17:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I want them go speak to these audiences and try to bring people over.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But we've got to stop equating authenticity and an ability to be a good communicator with the ability to go on those shows because they are not
17:18
[SPEAKER_01]: they are not built the same for all candidates.
17:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's that.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's breaking down some of this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean you're not authentic if you won't go in Joe Rogan.
17:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Just tell us why you don't think you're a message just going to be heard there and how are you going to get to those people in other ways?
17:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's a there's a method around it but we've got to be willing to call this
17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: authenticity sounds like this objective standard that everyone is held to, but we know it plays out differently for different people.
17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I just want us to be more conscious of calling that's kind of stuff out.
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
17:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, you need to be running the world.
17:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I am.
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not kidding.
18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen.
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: The people that want to run for office in a moment like this, I mean, let's be your first of all, the people we want doing it, right?
18:12
[SPEAKER_01]: For somebody to look around and say, okay, I think I can help us, like it's inspiring to me, it's not me, but it's inspiring to me that there are people who look at moments like this and see, we can get through this, I want to help us get there.
18:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now I want to bring everything that you're saying to this election that's coming up in November.
18:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to start it off with you had posted in New York Times article by Margey and it's called Democrats are getting the reckoning they deserve.
18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So you said she reveals an important opportunity to refrain this debate.
18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: The status quo doesn't work for people instead of demanding
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: from new ideas, let's acknowledge that we currently have a system that isn't working in new ideas that might.
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I totally want you to address this, but specifically my question to you is if you had an hour alone with democratic leadership, and they had to listen to you, what message would you have for them?
19:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I reckon there's so many things.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, I would say a couple of things.
19:21
[SPEAKER_01]: One is, we've got to stop with this.
19:24
[SPEAKER_01]: There is,
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: we have real issues right now and the idea that the biggest problem facing Democrats is fighting other Democrats is infuriating.
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a headline today in political political where folks at third-way are talking about putting a bunch of money into crushing DSA and one of the poll quote was, we're preparing for the next war.
19:48
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's not where the war is.
19:51
[SPEAKER_01]: we are we are watching a slide into authoritarianism we are not talking about saving American democracy at this point we are talking about restoring it the idea that the biggest issue facing third-way is democratic socialist is ridiculous no
20:08
[SPEAKER_01]: neatly misunderstanding what is going on with real voters every single day.
20:14
[SPEAKER_01]: We have an actual thing to fight against right now and I have no tolerance for this.
20:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So in the same way that over and over again I would say to progressives who we would have a candidate that everyone we could excited about and then they would lose to a more central establishment candidate that at the end of the day we grieve the loss and then we pick a
20:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And vote for the person who is going to do the most good for this country, which to my thinking has consistently been the Democrat, you do what you need to do.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say the exact same thing to establishment.
20:50
[SPEAKER_01]: leaders and candidates who are losing right now, pick yourself up and vote the right way.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not the time to mess around and if you genuinely feel like the biggest threat to us right now is a slide toward things going too progressive, then come up with ideas to motivate voters as much as they are being motivated right now.
21:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to hear we're putting $15 million into
21:15
[SPEAKER_01]: and to scaring people through digital ads about a slide into communism when we have real issues to deal with.
21:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So that one to me is like baseline table stakes, we've got to knock it off.
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: We cannot be fighting this fight and the idea that we're that scared are our own voters telling us what they want.
21:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Me, like you got to pack it up and get out of the show business, if that was really bad.
21:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my, you know, I have to say I have pulled back so much in the lab.
21:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, ever really since the 24 election for, for Mary had reasons, but I, this is part of it because, you know, I mean, I, I can't take, I can't take the idiocy, I'm sorry, it is, idiocy that you just described in our own party.
22:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to point out though, Alison Gill of daily being, you know, quote tweeted that article you were just talking about
22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like 20 people with $15 million dollars, hardly a drop in the bucket when it comes to the campaign spending.
22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: A handful of rogue dickheads does not award make.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Corporate is one of us to think there's some massive rift there isn't.
22:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, there are some people in, I just want to be very clear about this to listeners.
22:29
[SPEAKER_00]: There are some people in the Democratic Socialist of America.
22:33
[SPEAKER_00]: which is not a party.
22:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a caucus.
22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a group within the party that they have some crazy us ideas about things that I completely disagree with.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't mean I'm going to look at the entire group of people and say all of you people are whatever they're calling them and I can't even keep up because it makes me so fucking angry.
22:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I mean I'm 100% with you and by the way, I consider myself a Warren Democrat.
22:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I level this with more and so much.
22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know,
23:03
[SPEAKER_00]: progress, it is not always swift.
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It usually takes time and we live in a country with millions and millions and millions of people with all these different ideas about how things should go.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So as much as we'd love to see, you know, these really swift changes, it's not going to happen because that's not the country we live in.
23:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm sorry, I got to get off my soapbox, but I just, oh my god, it's like everything you said, it's it's nice to hear it.
23:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And then my
23:31
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're looking at this, I mean, I'm trying to be as centered as I can be because, of course, I'm going to be terrified when the midterms come, even though I feel like we're going to do okay.
23:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that this happens every election where our own party starts fighting with each other.
23:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that it's good, right?
23:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think it's good for Democrats to all figure this out together.
23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we should all be hating on each other, but like, let's, let's have the arguments, let's have the
24:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you're looking at the midterms, and when you're looking at what's happening right now, are you getting super nervous?
24:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like maybe we can at least this time in history, count on some of these independence to pull us out of this crap?
24:16
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you seeing the election?
24:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, right now.
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm seeing the election.
24:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel a lot of hope going into the election.
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do.
24:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that we are going to take back the house.
24:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that we can win the Senate.
24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a path.
24:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It is hard, but it is there.
24:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that people are feeling people feel motivated right now.
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: People are ready for something different.
24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if we listen to voters,
24:44
[SPEAKER_01]: and we are offering that, we can see something real happened in this moment.
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's partially why I'm so frustrated that I'm like, we have a real moment, right?
24:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's not squander it.
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And squandering, it doesn't just mean we have to win.
24:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It means we have to win and then perform.
25:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And that means, and that I think brings us back to the quote that you read at the beginning that I think something happens where,
25:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The status quo, there is a trick that happens because it's how things currently are.
25:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We basically just say, well, that doesn't have to be proven.
25:22
[SPEAKER_01]: This is how things are.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to change it, if you want to come with the next big idea, well, then how on earth are you going to pay for Medicare for all?
25:31
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
25:32
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're going to have, you know, city run grocery stores.
25:36
[SPEAKER_01]: How is that going to work?
25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, we have to reframe what we're talking about.
25:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a system that doesn't work.
25:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And we know it doesn't work because people die right now from preventable illnesses because they couldn't get preventative health care.
25:51
[SPEAKER_01]: People don't, people go bankrupt because they get sick.
25:56
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a system that doesn't work.
25:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We know it because kids don't have food.
26:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They have lunch debt and that means they can't get lunch when they're at school.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a system that does not work.
26:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think we need to say, we have a system that doesn't work and new ideas that might rather than what we have a system.
26:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So tell me how this new idea is going to work.
26:21
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got to try something new and I think shifting what we consider to be
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: the baseline is a big part of it.
26:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the most exciting thing that voters are telling us right now.
26:33
[SPEAKER_01]: They are voting in candidates who are proposing the big ideas.
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And that means that voters are finally willing to say, hold on, why is it that there are some things that we would say, we absolutely can't do that.
26:47
[SPEAKER_01]: If we went to war tomorrow, we would find a way
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if that's true, why do we have to have a conversation about how we would fund Medicare for all?
27:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
27:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There are people dying of preventable illnesses.
27:05
[SPEAKER_01]: There are people going bankrupt because they got sick.
27:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Why can't that be our disfar enough, right?
27:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And if people are willing to say, more of the lines we draw and say no need to be in favor of us regular people,
27:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Then that means politicians, it is time to listen to voters and say, okay, where can we redraw some of these lines?
27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So the moment that voters are requiring bigger ideas, the idea that our candidates are telling us calm down is baffling to me because I'm like,
27:39
[SPEAKER_01]: correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the reason that people say the big ideas don't work is because they say they can't win, they're not popular.
27:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's unalectable if you're saying that.
27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: If the voters are saying it, you're electable.
27:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
27:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They give the mandate, right?
27:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the vote, that's where it comes from.
27:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: we've got to take this moment and say people are asking for something big because what the system we have is not working for people across the board.
28:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've got to be proposing big solutions and if you don't like the democratic socialist way, the answer can't be sloshes at stop it.
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay, we'll then come up with the idea that doesn't try to tell people that
28:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It should be a conversation about ideas.
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that should be inspiring.
28:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I think to us, to those of us who have wanted or politics to center real people more, who have wanted to talk more about the issues that
28:43
[SPEAKER_01]: actually impact working people, poor people rather than defining our economy by metrics that a lot of us don't matter to a lot of people.
28:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we define our economy's health by a stock market that a lot of people can't afford to invest in, right?
28:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's a moment we can really shift here and I think we have to take that invitation from voters or voters are going to leave
29:09
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of candidates behind, and this anti-establishment push is going to transform things in a different way.
29:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what it can do is transform it in a huge way where the work that has been done for years and years can continue to be helpful and useful, but only if candidates take the cue from voters.
29:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think they're stuck right now because we've got a party that, you know, or I should say that we have a system in this country that now because of citizens united and because of money it has become what it has become and people feel and I understand this right if you're a candidate you need a lot of money to win because you're up against so much and I think the progressives right now are proving though that if they don't take some of that money they can still win.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but obviously this is the system that we have and in that system, there are going to be Democrats who are fearful about changing it up and they don't want to lose.
30:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that sometimes those people are punished when they shouldn't be because I think they are acting out of fear, um, because they don't want to lose.
30:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm just going to take a little step back because in the last several years, I, you know, outside of my political interests, I've been somewhat interested in who we are, right?
30:28
[SPEAKER_00]: listeners, don't worry, I'm not going to get all spiritual on you.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get a little existential here, though, and say, you know, up until Donald Trump came along, we, you know, we had Occupy Wall Street, you know, we've, we've been wanting to get rid of citizens united, we've talked about the gerrymandering, we've talked about all the things that we see that are in our
30:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The words that are coming to my mind, I don't even want to say, but this big, horrible man became the president and started destroying everything.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, we had a respite for a little while with Joe Biden, but then he came back and now he's really destroying everything and he's got dementia and he's he's just probably like the worst person that's ever lived.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, while it's totally understandable that we're all
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Experiencing this negatively, you know, where we're all experiencing this in a way that's traumatizing and upsetting, I think the benefit out of all of it is that there was this the system that wasn't working for everybody and it was working for some but it wasn't working for everybody and mostly the people was working for the with the word the rich white people.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, there is an opportunity because everything has been destroyed and not everything, but a lot of it has been destroyed.
31:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this opportunity for us to build back and do all these things from a more matriarchal point of view.
31:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't mean women only women leading.
32:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean from the feminine energy which is helping each other and being there and creating social safety nets.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so,
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that said, I'm just curious because I know that you do a lot of time analyzing politics, and I'm just wondering what still surprises you about voters, and then also what's different do you think in this particular upcoming election, then what we experienced in 2018 in that in that midterm?
32:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that is that's interesting and exciting, because I think, honestly,
32:42
[SPEAKER_01]: is like we're seeing a moment of like political imagination that has opened, right?
32:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I think
32:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for so long, we have shut things down because someone can say, well, it's socialism and that kind of can end the discussion.
32:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that what we started to see is that people are like, it, this doesn't make sense.
33:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't afford my life.
33:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm working time and I can't afford my life.
33:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And for the first time, it feels like people feel the permission to say,
33:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not okay for so long we've been so conditioned to say well that means I have to work harder well that means I need a better job I don't want to ask for something I sort of don't deserve there was this there I mean and and there continues to be this is what capitalism does it's what the sort of myth of American individualism does it makes us think
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: that if I can't do something, it's because of a failure of mine, and the answer is me working harder.
33:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's me digging deeper.
33:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like for the first time people are looking around and going, no, I'm working.
33:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm working full time.
33:55
[SPEAKER_01]: My partner's working full time.
33:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not asking for something ridiculous.
34:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We're asking for being able to raise our family in a safe place, in a safe
34:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I am so inspired that people are finally saying, nope, the problems not me, the problems out there.
34:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you say the problems out there, then other people go, yeah, it is.
34:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And now we have to talk about an affordability crisis.
34:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's have to talk about this in terms of what are you going to do to bring my cost down?
34:33
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you going to do to bring my wages up?
34:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That then becomes a political necessity.
34:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the thing that I feel like is different is also the thing that I think continues to surprise me and inspire me about voters.
34:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's that you can
34:57
[SPEAKER_01]: these moments where people are willing to come together and say, nope, this is something that needs to be different.
35:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think between 2018 and now, people have gotten to that point.
35:10
[SPEAKER_01]: They've been willing to say, nope, I'm not willing to take this on as something I've just failed to do.
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something we as a society should be able to take care of for each other and for ourselves.
35:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that difference is making all of the difference.
35:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, no, I'm going to ask you an interesting question here.
35:30
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you, and it might take you a minute, but I know that you have thought about power a lot.
35:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is something that you've learned about power that has nothing to do with politics that can benefit the average voter?
35:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something I've learned about politics, but it's not about, or something you've learned about.
35:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Power that has nothing to do with politics, but that voters can like take inspiration from.
35:59
[SPEAKER_01]: That I think that it's not about politics and that it's like, I mean, I think it's beyond politics, but it's that collective power is it's
36:14
[SPEAKER_01]: There's individual power that we have that we can express at a number of different ways.
36:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think often when we talk about, I think authenticity is an example of this, right?
36:22
[SPEAKER_01]: There are so many things that we treat as internal self pursuits, but that give a collective good.
36:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And if something is an internal pursuit, it gives a collective good.
36:33
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a collective piece of it that sometimes gets left behind.
36:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when we talk about authenticity, we ask people to examine themselves what we do it because we're like, it's good for everyone.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if it's good for everyone, then we all have a responsibility to create a situation where everyone's authenticity is actually embraced, and therefore they are safe to be there often themselves.
36:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there is a there's a corollary there to our power is that you have internal power, but the us coming together is a collective we are so greatly benefited when we bring that all together and I think that we are at a moment where a revolution of collective power is going to be needed.
37:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's sort of a cross-the-board in so much of our lives.
37:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it voters think of it that way and focus less on what is my individual voice or vote and more what can we do together.
37:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we keep asking ourselves this in this political moment.
37:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's so much it's going on what can I possibly do and the thing is you're not just you.
37:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I think about things like
37:47
[SPEAKER_01]: like organizing for a general strike.
37:50
[SPEAKER_01]: If things get bad enough, if we have a collective power that isn't always tapped into.
37:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I want people to carry that and own that because we do have a lot of room to do a lot to change a system that isn't working for us.
38:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, yeah.
38:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think I try to, like, for instance, weren't just when I go out into the world, and especially because I am a white woman and I recognize what that means today, it's, I feel, I don't know what the right word is.
38:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to say pressure, but I guess maybe a responsibility.
38:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, to be kind to everyone, not that I used to walk around and be an asshole.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've always been pretty friendly, but I feel like in our, you know, since there's so much hate happening, I feel like one little thing that I can do.
38:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, this is it's little, but I do think it's meaningful is just to kind of spread that kindness smile and it sounds simple.
38:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But it makes a difference when you're, because, you know, I mean, I don't get out much.
38:58
[SPEAKER_00]: What sometimes, you know, like I'm at the grocery store and I see somebody wearing a pretty shirt and I might say something to them or, you know, and again, it feels like it's just a small little thing.
39:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're all in a community and, you know, I like, I follow indivisible and take some of the cues and, you know, if you're,
39:18
[SPEAKER_00]: a person because I see so many people online and I think it's getting better but I'd say in the first year of this last term of his and I am calling it his last term because he's not going to be president after this term no matter what he says because I don't think he's going to make it but anyway
39:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know, we can do, we can do little things.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm losing track of what I'm thinking.
39:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why if I sound, I don't know what I'm talking about.
39:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking like family, but basically I do think it's just a little things that we can do as individuals and then also, you know, like,
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I was saying with indivisible, they talk about just donating food, you know, go through your closet.
40:04
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't have money and you can't go to the store and buy food for other people, maybe you have some old clothes, maybe you have some old items in your home that you're no longer using, donate them, do things and think in terms of community because I think that makes us feel
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: especially when we look in every new story that we see is so traumatizing and so upsetting and you feel helpless but you're not because you can literally go donate some green beans, you know?
40:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You can donate things and help other people and you can do it in a way if you're one of these people that feels like I don't like being around other people, I don't like dealing with other people, just go make a
40:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You know elderly people get to the polls help elderly people in your area get to the grocery store Whatever it is, but I think that they're like when you're talking about that collective power Yeah, our collective power comes when we vote, but it also comes from our everyday action and I think that's Yeah, it makes it harder for fascism to thrive when there's a real sense of community
41:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, so anyway, I'm gonna, I think that is it, I think that's so important and it's such a reminder that how much value
41:26
[SPEAKER_01]: fascist get how much value opponents get when when we treat each other like we are opponents like we are enemies like we can't all come together.
41:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the reason it starts with all of the how do we divide people up?
41:41
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we turn people into each other?
41:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's that is the only way they can win.
41:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Our
41:49
[SPEAKER_01]: refusal to let that happen, our radically choosing community in the face of that effort at division, is so powerful and it's so, so important.
42:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's like, and I think it's working because we've seen the rallies and the events by indivisible and all, you know, no-kings events,
42:11
[SPEAKER_00]: and people showing up, we're hearing about a lot of Republicans who are openly turning against Donald Trump.
42:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they're not becoming Democrats, but they're at least, I don't know if they're waking up, but they're at least telling the truth in some version of the truth about him.
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that it's promising.
42:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do, I'm with you, and that I'm not going to be happy
42:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And the general election is when I'm going to start freaking out, but that's when the, you know, it's when all the results are coming in and that's when it's really going to hit me because the last, well, I would say.
42:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, for sure, 2024 done me in and Joe Biden's debate.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that I watched it for about five minutes and then I ran into the bedroom and hit under the bed under the covers.
43:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I felt so sick because I was totally worried and then we had that election and I had a not in my stomach for six weeks.
43:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And really I kind of pulled back from everything that I had been doing for the last, I don't know how many years, because I just felt like, well, what good is it?
43:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not helping.
43:21
[SPEAKER_00]: He won again.
43:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I'm not going to go out as much as I used to go out, but I do see that you know what, if we're going to, and I love that you're saying restore democracy, if we're going to restore democracy, we all have to hold hands and let's be united and let's, you know, let's fight off these fascists and I think that the one thing, one of the things America has going for it is that we have all been indoctrinated with this idea of America, free American freedom.
43:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, there are some of us in this country who would prefer authoritarianism, just because that's what some people like, but most of us don't, most of us want the freedom.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And we didn't, we didn't really have a fair distribution of that freedom.
44:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is an opportunity to change that.
44:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think in my last question regarding these
44:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that we are, because of the last, I don't want to include Joe Biden.
44:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying he's perfect, but I'm not including him with what Donald Trump has done, but since Donald Trump, the trajectory has changed.
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And so do you really see more kind of matriarchal
44:42
[SPEAKER_00]: or walk away from a patriarchal America moving forward.
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that's going to happen?
44:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it might take a while, but do you see it?
44:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely see it.
44:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's going to take a while when I think we're going to have a few hiccups along the way.
44:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're already seeing it.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that as we move toward, I mean, that's it.
45:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that it's more cooperation, that it's an idea that we do owe each other something.
45:10
[SPEAKER_01]: exist and, you know, sort of act as though everything is just kind of been neutral and everyone can do whatever they can do that we know social engineering has happened to make things hard on people and harder on certain people and that there needs to be a concerted effort to reverse that.
45:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There need to be like that there should be a floor below which people can't fall.
45:39
[SPEAKER_01]: We are finally getting closer to some of those conversations and already we're hearing people have such an allergic reaction to it.
45:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you're right.
45:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I think some of it is fear.
45:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I think some of it is people don't know what a society like that is going to look like when if the comfort and the privilege that they have a mask will disappear in the world and what it's going to look like.
46:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that everyone who isn't immediately on board is
46:06
[SPEAKER_01]: the enemy, but I definitely think we are up against something we're going to have to correct for, which is there is just going to be this aversion to that level of change that just comes from
46:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's all the way that we've always done it.
46:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, fair of change.
46:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's going to benefit everyone.
46:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to have moments along the way, but I definitely think that's where we're headed.
46:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think we are seeing the limitations of late stage capitalism.
46:39
[SPEAKER_01]: We are seeing the limitations of a society that has built the way that this one has been built.
46:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we are recognizing that it needs to be,
46:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's really how I'm trying to keep my focus.
46:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I heard somebody refer to it as suffering up and suffering down, meaning if there's something bad happen happening that you, you know, when you're suffering down, you only see the negative, but when you suffer up, you're like, yeah, this really sucks, but let's improve it.
47:09
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a way out of this.
47:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that, you know, we all need to, as I said,
47:14
[SPEAKER_00]: earlier initially I saw you know a lot of democratic ears saying that's it we're toast we're done and I absolutely refused even when I was at the height of my fear.
47:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I absolutely refused to give into that and now you know I think these last couple of years a year and a half I should say have proven
47:33
[SPEAKER_00]: that America's not going to accept it, and unfortunately, we don't have a corporate news meter, news media that we can trust, to do and say the right thing for the people, but I don't even think that that's going to interfere as much as it used to because I think that people are starting to wake up to that.
47:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, we've got this whole, I'd love to have you back and talk about some of the possibilities that can happen because
48:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, just we didn't even really touch on the news media and I think there's a lot of improvements to be made in the news media and and where those things are going but but I but I do think that I I think what you're writing about is absolutely fascinating with us whole authenticity thing and I do share your enthusiasm.
48:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, although I know like I said on an election night, I'm just going to be like, I'm going to need a binky.
48:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, for sure, for sure.
48:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And at this point, we've been, we've all been traumatized enough.
48:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, but, but I, I, I, I hold the enthusiasm, the optimism and the hope and I would love to come back and talk about this more because I think, yeah, I think the next step is the, that's the big one.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
48:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I am going to let you go now.
48:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to suggest you to some of my friends.
48:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can't make any guarantees, but I think you're just a wonderful woman.
48:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for doing what you do.
48:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for sharing your story and your message all of it.
49:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything, I think it's so important and I'm very, very, very, very impressed.
49:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you and appreciate this and thank you for creating the space that you've created.
49:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I really this is this is fantastic.
49:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, before I let you go, please tell everyone where to find you and to where to get your book absolutely the book is out everywhere now.
49:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can order it online it's a real ones the real ones.
49:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the real ones how to disrupt the hidden ways racism makes us less authentic.
49:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so yeah, you can, yeah, order it, go to your local bookstore, go to your local library.
49:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It's around.
49:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I am probably most active on blue sky and Instagram where I am my a dot
49:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, um, yeah.
49:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you are.
49:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I can stop and check.
50:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
50:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can only find me on my, myrooper.com.
50:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You can even check out my website as well.
50:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, I'm thank you.
50:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
50:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
50:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
50:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
50:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate it.
50:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you.
50:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And please, everybody go follow her and read her book.
50:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So, thanks again and we'll talk soon.
50:20
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
50:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We definitely talk again.
50:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds good.