Latest / Motherhood Uncut / What if we laughed about it? With Caitlin Murray | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 6

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What if we laughed about it? With Caitlin Murray | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 6 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: We are so glad that you're here.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, bring to this podcast all of those conversations that are actually kind of hard to have around motherhood.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: We will be talking about things that make you laugh, that probably make you cry in the best of ways, that move you, that inspire you, that teach you new things.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we are really committed to this podcast because we really believe that nobody should be mothering alone.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: So come jump in with us, pour yourself a glass of wine, cup of tea, put on your running shoes, turn on the audio in your car.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Come be with us for a bit.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: We can't wait to mother with you.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this week, Kate and I had the opportunity to talk with Caitlin Murray.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you are not familiar with her work, she is amazing.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: She has a really well-known Instagram feed called Big Time Adulting, and she talks all parenting stuff, but with this incredible humor.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: But more than that, she's deep and smart, and she knows how to make really hard conversations light and relatable.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we were so honored to have the opportunity to work with her and or talk to her.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't work with her at all.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we hope you enjoy the show as much as we did.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: As always, thanks for listening and have a wonderful day.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners, it's Kate.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to tell you about my new 12-week program called the Calm Connection System.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: This program is designed for you if you're a high-achieving woman and you're struggling with levels of worry, guilt, and overwhelm that are causing you distress and that are getting in your way of enjoying both mothering and having the kind of attachment and relationship with your child that you've always hoped for.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: You may or may not feel that you're suffering with clinical levels of depression or anxiety, but you do know that you don't feel the way you want to feel, and that you are not mothering the way you want to mother, and you know that something needs to change.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm bringing my 20 years as a clinician and maternal and child mental health expert to this program.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's designed to help you uncover the blind spots that are getting in your way, learn new ways of changing negative thought patterns, allowing for and moving through hard emotions, tending to your nervous system on the spot so that you can stay steady in the hardest of moments, access self-compassion, and more, all while you form a lifelong secure attachment with your child, which I'm also going to show you how to do.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And what makes this program one of a kind is that I've created it so that you have daily, yes, daily support around implementation and habit changing, so that your growth and change is sustainable over time.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: If you're ready to increase your resilience to stress and find mental health and wellness on behalf of your kids, because remember, we know that maternal and child mental health are intimately connected, and you understand that the resources that you put towards this now, such as money, time, and energy, will give you back these same resources exponentially later than this program's for you.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Schedule a link or schedule a time to book a free call with me at the link in the show notes.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to tell you more about this program and to help you see if you qualify.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: The time is now.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I am so excited to tell you that I'm doing my first ever free webinar on Instagram.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is on December 14th.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's a Thursday.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And in this webinar, I'm gonna give you some pretty awesome tips around how to get your daughter to talk to you.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is something we mamas all want.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this is an opportunity for you to see what my workshops are all about, what I'm all about, and a chance for me to meet you.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to have you join.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can register on my Instagram, um, which is Mother DaughterJourney, I think.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I hope to see you there.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Have a great day.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Happy podcast day.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Happy podcast, Mary.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: We have a really amazing guest with us today.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: We do.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very honored.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: We are very honored to have you, Caitlin, on our podcast because we both feel like you're just making a huge, huge impact in the world of mothering.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: But Caitlin Murray is a humorist, content creator, writer, podcaster, mother of three, and wife of one.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Which would sort of be interesting if we had said wife of three.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I guess it's possible, but anything's possible.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: She is the creator of big time adulting, which many of us and many of our listeners will know is like a if you're if if you haven't found Caitlin on Instagram yet, go find her because she really turns the things in motherhood that are hard into uh humor, really.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Caitlin began sharing with family and oh, sorry, I skipped.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: In 2016, Caitlin's oldest child was diagnosed with leukemia at age three.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: And she began sharing with family and friends about their journey and specifically her experience as a mother.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Caitlin started her Instagram account in 2018 and has amassed over a million followers who appreciate her for our honest and humorous takes on motherhood.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Caitlin.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Caitlin.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I will just say that like it's so um nice to have such a warm welcome and a lovely introduction like that, and that it also means so much to me because you had just told me that you both are moms of teen teenage girls.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're a few years ahead of me in the parenting journey.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, just anytime you put yourself out there on social media the way that we all are doing right now, you do feel like a little bit vulnerable, or will I regret this later, or something like that.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm so um really warmed and validated to know that what I'm saying resonates really well with people who um have had a couple of years on me in this journey and that um it helps me like keep the path.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know what is so interesting, Caitlin, is that we talk all the time in this podcast about how important mentors are in motherhood.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it's interesting how it can go both ways, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: I have really, really looked to you in your feed as mentorship for how to take myself and life a little less seriously.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And my kids are older than yours, but it's so easy to take ourselves and this process so freaking seriously.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then we just get in the muck and can't see out of it.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say to you, Caitlin, that you are very much a mentor to me, even though your kids are younger than mine.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing I love about mothering in general is it just no one gets a haul past.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like if there's one thing that's gonna like level the field, that's it.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I love how you said once we put it out there, there's a moment of possible regret or vulnerability.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that actually is the metaphor of mothering, right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we have to show up in our real selves and we can't be attached to any outcome because we just have no idea what's right around the corner.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Which is gonna bring us to our first question.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Would you mind starting by just telling us your story of how you got to be you as a mother?
• 7:21
  unknown: Sure.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've always been me.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have and then uh yeah, my so like the reason why I'm really on Instagram now is um it was really propelled by this experience that I went through with my son and his cancer um treatment and diagnosis and all of that, that entire process, which really it lasted close to three and a half years, which was, you know, just a um completely overwhelming amount of time when I was first told how long his treatment process would take and that um we would be in this for so long and how God, this is like really not how I pictured my life as a young mother.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a one-year-old daughter um at the same time.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it sort of like in some ways felt like life was ruined, um because it's every parent's worst nightmare to have that happen.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um luckily my son's diagnosis is ALL, acute lymphoblastic leukemia, which is um has typically a great prognosis.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we were pretty sure that he would be okay at the end of it, although, you know, you never you know count your chickens before they hatch.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just a a really high pressure cooker kind of time of life.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I had been writing about him and what we were going through regularly and sending that out to family and friends.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was approached by somebody who saw it because I had compiled it into a blog and they had seen some of my writing, and she was a an editor and said, Would you mind if I showed your writing to this publisher friend of mine?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Wow, that would be awesome, cool, thanks.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then the publisher came back and was like, Well, she's got no following.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we are definitely.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's kind of why I started my page because I thought, well, maybe I'll just try to do this the way that people are, you know, get published more easily, which is after gaining a following.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I just started putting stuff out there, and it was always never really I talk about my son sometimes.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when I first started out because he was still in treatment, there's more of that in my posts.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time, they were all static posts and like little micro blogs underneath.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: But this is pre-reels, pre-am reels.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was never really about that and him.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was just about what it's like to be a mom and like the real ways because all of these things that I touch on are things that I felt before he was diagnosed, you know.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought that if I said those things, that I would sound ungrateful or, you know, um people would judge me for being, you know, bringing up these sort of taboo topics.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And after what I had gone through, I sort of was like, fuck that.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say whatever I want.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I've been through some shit here and I and I I have the right to talk about it freely.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's sort of how I got to where I am with everything right now.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the things I'm really interested, we are really interested in learning about from you today is this role of humor in talking about things that are really hard.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: You said something a few minutes ago, Caitlin, that I think probably every mother can identify.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's an unfair statement, but this is not what I expected motherhood would be like.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: You used a different term, but this idea when like we dream about being a mom, and we certainly don't dream about being a mom who gets a cancer diagnosis at age three.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: We definitely don't dream about a mom who has a hard time and is like pulling her hair out and losing her shit when her kid won't go to sleep at night.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like all these things, whether they're big, traumatic, like the things we fear most, like kids being sick or the things that we just take for granted, like losing your freedom.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Losing your freedom or not being able to put your kid to like what we don't go into motherhood with this realm of capacity or belief that the reality is that is that we're gonna be fucking terrified a lot of the time.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: So humor, you know, you're two psychotherapists who are like there's a really good use of humor, and then there's humor that hides what's really happening.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yours does not hide with really what's really happening.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us about that.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, have you always been as fucking funny as you are?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Have you always tell us where the humor comes from?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my favorite questions that I get.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Someone have you always been funniest.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, I just started.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Decided one day that I was gonna be funny.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh a new hobby I picked up along the way.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I think what the like I agree with you about that whole sentiment of you can use humor to like just deflect the real stuff and like never really address that.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which I find to be so annoying by the way when people do that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you're not that funny.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, I think what is the beautiful thing about using humor and truth at the at the same time is that it makes it a lot more palatable and light and there's levity to it for the masses, you know, so you can reach a lot of people with laughter and um have them feel better about something that's shitty.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's just like the the reason why it seems more like okay, what's the word I'm looking for to sh to say the things that like appropriate or yeah, yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I also I hear it's also it it balances it because if we're in like shitty zone and we're only looking at the shitty, that's just like a tunnel to go deep down, but to bring the light into it, you know, light, oh my god.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, everybody.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um light and dark to like bring that in.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that is just the only way to survive, actually.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people don't really want all doom and gloom, right?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like they want they want truth and realness, but they don't want to feel like shit.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: But either do you, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it really is a tool.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like it really is most of the things that I'm saying to on to the audience or whatever on my Instagram page is really what I'm saying to myself.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like it's not that I have this all figured out by any means.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, everyone knows that we no one has it all figured out, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that I'm struggling in that exact same moment.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And here's what I'm thinking.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I'm doing.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Myself laugh right now about it.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um oh, that's so good.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think I bet a lot of Instagram reelers can relate to that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's what I do when I'm giving parenting tips.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, this is what I tried today, you know, or something like that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe I'm wrong because I don't know all the Instagram reelers, but I don't know that that's that typical.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think still we're caught in this really annoying funnel where there's shame around what's really happening inside, to your point.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's performative.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's performative that so many Instagram reels out there, obviously not all of them, are trying to present the way that they want people to see them.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those of us who are in some sort of a service role, which I would call you very much your absolutely, absolutely is that is that many of us, I mean, I sometimes, and you're saying this too, like it can be like, well, I shouldn't, I shouldn't have these moments because I'm teaching other women not to have these moments, right?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm not saying that.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, and I'm not saying that either.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: I want to take that back.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: But there is But there is there is some of that out there, you're saying, right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: There can be exactly there can be this like need to present as having it all together, which I think makes can make us all feel worse when we're really struggling.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's probably like the block that gets in the way of connection.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, because it's fake.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, next topic.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: I have a question.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're married, yes, to a man.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: To one, to one man.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: One man, okay, and um so does he use humor as a coping strategy as well?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not the same way, yes.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I would say yes.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, he uses humor like in ways that help me so much more because like I get really irritated, and like I'll talk about mom rage and stuff like that, and the things that are going on around me in the house, and like the over stimulation, it makes me anxious and antsy and not be able to sit still, and I'll just like not be able to relax and and hang out, like I'll have to jump up and do a task or something.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's why I'm always like relax, get yourself a snack, you know, just like chill the fuck out.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: But my husband, like when he sees me getting like a little too serious or like like I'm getting irritable, like I'm like, Well, what the fuck is this?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and he he'll like just say something funny to me, like, you are, or whatever, you know, like he just knows how to take the edge off in those moments where he's not trying to be right, or he's often the much bigger person.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate that a lot.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he's just trying to kind of get us back to center in in situations where I'm at like high irritation levels.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm pretty bad for that because that could be difficult the other way, you know.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's why I asked because I was a couples therapist for 19 years before I transitioned to mother-daughter work and also a sex therapist.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I couple the when a couple goes through a trauma like this, um, and a total shake of the family system, it can really go south.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like you guys had some ways to get through it.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Would you mind sharing other ways that helped you or what that was like for you?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's funny.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know that we like I said, I don't know that we always use humor in the same way in terms of coping, but um like I think he is so funny, and I think I think he thinks that I'm funny.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if he doesn't then um if he doesn't, he's just fucked up.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: That would be weird.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think outside of humor, the ways that um we sort of we just were able to like support each other for what we were each going through in different ways and appreciate, acknowledge and respect like the differences.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the keys to anything in marriage, like just being acknowledging someone for their role or what their their experience is and appreciating that.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we did that well with each other and were able to be each other's like support system, and both of us, you know, obviously being so so terribly sad about what our son was going through, we were really in that together, and I think we were the only two people in the world who felt the depths of that darkness.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, we just there's a lot of love there to begin with.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but I think being teammates, you know, just like we have the same goal.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: We are on the same team, you know.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like we're if I score, you score, the whole team scores, you know.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not two different teams.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I love a good sports analogy.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, me too.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love that.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think when when a family's going through a really hard time, it can feel often like you're on an island by yourself.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what you just described is you guys were on the same island.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And like, right, rock on.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think also when there is a tragedy, like a kid who gets a diagnosis, like your son did, so often uh the mother can feel like she's bearing the burden and the load.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that is often what happens.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: You talk about that a lot in your in your feed about this sort of the the burden to bear as a mother who's thinking about all the shit that no one else can see, because that's just what you're biologically primed to do.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like it sounds like what we hear you saying, Caitlin, is that even if that may have been true, because you are the mother, that you felt like the two of you could hold the load in some way together so that you felt that you were both supporting each other in that process and that you didn't feel like you were doing it all alone.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Am I are am I hearing you right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I would say that is true.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that even like maybe a little bit more so than that, that like because that was like I was the one who ended up staying home with the kids and being that primary caretaker, which I did not really feel incredibly well suited to do, but somebody had to do it, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um I wouldn't have actually wanted somebody else to do it either, though, you know, like I wanted to be the one, but um all in the same breath.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think my husband just appreciated my role and vocalized that.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt acknowledged and really, you know, appreciated by him.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that just goes so far.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes like it's not necessarily, it doesn't always have to be about like upsetting the gender role balance or the primary caretaker versus the breadwinner balance or whatever, however, your structure is set up at home.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: It might just be like a lot more about acknowledgement and appreciation and respect.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: And respect for having taken the burden of that opportunity, that role.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I hear you, Caitlin.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's such an interesting thing.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you say you wouldn't you weren't necessarily suited for that, but it also was an obvious choice for you.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, even if you would quote unquote rather.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or not stay home raising your children all the time because there was something else you want to do.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's no way you would have stepped aside for someone else to do that during this really tentative time.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's such an interesting conflict, isn't it?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: When you're like, there's so much grief.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much fucking grief in motherhood all the time.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we're on we're constantly, whether it's a big thing like this or a smaller thing, having to say no to one thing to say yes to something else.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the noes suck.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: They suck.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and people don't like to hear the word sacrifice that it was a sacrifice for for you to do that or for women to do what they're doing.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and let me be clear, it was an honor for me to be able to do that.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it is a sacrifice.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you felt appreciated because I actually think to your point, appreciate rather than getting caught up in like you know, all the roles and everything, that feeling of being seen and being appreciated in whatever relationship you're in goes so far.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that's kind of all we need really to like make us feel like we exist and our job is is meaningful.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, every relationship.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So can I ask another question where we're like me first?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you two talk about mom rage, and this is such a topic, and it's happening in my office all the time of mom rage.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, talk about it.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: What do you got?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is what is it for you?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: What helps?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, God, how could we not feel ragey sometimes, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're if you're a a parent, you're going through these long periods of time in like a in a small in small quarters with people who have underdeveloped frontal lobes.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's like it's frustrating.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you get it?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but like it's and also throw hormones into the mix, like, you know, your PMS rage.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I find that my mom rage like really comes out like that week before I'm gonna get my period.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's when I feel the most like I want to burn my house down-ish, you know.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I don't know, like, that there's maybe there are people out there that that just don't feel that, that don't get all hopped up on rage every now and again, but I certainly do.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like you feel so guilty because you know, you're with these little people who are innocent, essentially, even though they don't always seem so innocent, but they are.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you feel bad, but that's also like sucks because then it doesn't validate the experience that you're having, you know, um, to feel guilty about it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I just it's just it's I don't know what else to say about it, but it's just part of the experience for me.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Deb and I say often to each other and sometimes on the podcast that other people's children are fucking annoying.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Children are annoying.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then the thing is that when they're your children, you also love them to pieces, right?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like that, you know, it's sort of like if I have someone else's kid come over who's being annoying and I only have to have them at my house for two hours, I can like deal, right?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: But when they never go away and you know that you also love them so much, like that's what I get from your feeds when you talk about rage.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the cut and the conflict almost makes it more confusing because you can't vent.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I might call Deb and be like, holy shit, I when our kids were younger, like I have to tell you about this plate.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean now.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: And now we do it, we do it now too.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like we can separate ourselves from it because we don't have to also love them.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: We don't also have to hold them as whole to your word, innocent human beings who are just doing their job as kids.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then, of course, we talk a lot about which you also talk about in your way, is like when we hit that rage point or that irritability or that anger, we start parenting our children from the same age that they are, right?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we're like six-year-olds trying to mother six-year-olds or 14-year-olds trying to mother 14 year olds, which just is like throwing kerosene on the fire.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: But the conflict is real.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: This love and hate, all of this hate's too strong word, but this love and like feeling like you hate them.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's holding opposites, yeah, all the time.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're just the duality, the duality of motherhood, like in every way, shape, and form, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so when you post about these things, when you post about your rage or you post about the realness that happens behind closed doors, because that again, I'll just say from my experience as one of your, you know, your um, what do you call it when you when someone's a celebrity?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: You're your follow, but you're get your fans, one of your fans as one of your fans.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I feel about you is that you're like, you're like sharing what many of us feel behind closed doors, as if the door is glass, so we can watch you, right?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's still behind a closed door.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're not afraid to be like, lay it all out there.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things I love most about your things is your dance parties because I do that.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's like my, and I'm like, I, I, I, I'm like, I wish I was in your living room dancing with you because we could be crazy together.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: But so you, it's almost like you make the door glass and you're just showing how you are.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: I am curious to know when you have a million followers and you have all these people commenting, you're gonna have a number of comments that are critical back to how you started, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: What is the what kind of criticism do you get when you when people are pushing back against your your offer to the world?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: What does that sound like?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And how does that hit you?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: What happens for you?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think I used to like take it a little bit more personally.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've sort of learned to just scroll past comments like that because I've come to a place where I truly believe and accept the fact that like this content isn't for everyone, and that is fine.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Go find your people, right?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't have to be ever I don't have to be everybody's cup of tea.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I want to be, you know, and I think like in real life, if people were talking to me outside of me being a little bit cheeky or snarky or like cynical on my um delivery that they would not dare uh comment the way that they do to me.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they probably don't know anything about me or who I am or what I have been through.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember that, you know.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but people on the internet, I mean, like, who gives a shit?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many crazies out there that it's like, why bother?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: There have been a couple of comments that like really hit me in a way where this this one mom who had lost a child um to cancer had said something about um you wouldn't say that if you had lost your child.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I first I just this is more to the point where it's like this is not the page that you should be on social media right now.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Parenting humor is not going to resonate with a person who has just lost their child.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's right, you shouldn't be on social media at all.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: At all.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, um, and I completely understand like your anger, and if you want me to be the target of that right now, I get it, whatever.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: But um, in the same breath, like please don't try to make me feel guilty for putting like realness out there in the world.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And all I'm doing is sharing my experiences.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just speaking from something that happened to me or like my opinion on something.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm never making blanket statements or this is what you should do or whatever.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: So did you respond to that person?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then she actually ended up sending me like a personal message, um kind of apologizing for like misdirecting her anger at me.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um but there are there have been a couple of times where a discourse has been taken to like a personal messaging space that it's been like sort of resolved and like listen, like cool your jets here.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is Instagram, not the real world.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like also just be respectful.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's there's so many nuggets in what you just said.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the thing I love the most is then I'm not your real, you know, I'm not the person you should be following because there's like if you're everybody's flavor, you're no flavor, right?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh and there's so much choice out there.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's such a good reminder.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think I also appreciate Caitlin that you know the the reality is that when we are going through depths of despair and grief, it's human to project that onto someone.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: We need someone to be the container of that anger so often.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And especially if we're not um, if we don't have the support that we need to to own it a little bit, you know, because it's really painful to sit with that kind of anger.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if someone doesn't have someone to help them sit with that, of course they're gonna find someone else to be their target too.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually really appreciate it's very, it's it's a it's this is very reflective of how you move through the world.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: When you said, if you want me to be the target of your anger, then that's fine, right?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: That you're able to say, this actually isn't about me, Caitlin.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is about this other person's anger.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: They need someplace to put that anger.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I happen on this little thing called a phone to be the target of that person's anger and that that doesn't have to take you down.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Which is hard to do.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: But again, I think sort of a tribute to probably how you walk through the world in general, where you're able to say, what's mine and what's yours?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not gonna take, I'm not gonna take your shit on.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: I feel for you, but I'm not gonna wear it for you.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard to do that in situations like that because you know, you do it is just the worst possible thing to have a lot of people.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course you're a sense, you're a sensitive human.
• 32:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna feel all that.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Can I go back to rage for a minute?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really think that it's so important.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing I love that you're saying is you're normalizing it for all moms.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: The language I often use is like, let's befriend the rage.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta get to know her because she's powerful and she has a voice here too at the table.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like so often we want to push it away and like you know, shame it actually.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I haven't seen enough of your reel to or your Instagram to know if you have like a rage dance.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like I just you do have a rage dance.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have a whole mom rage dance.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's so good.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's what I was just thinking.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we need to like party on with the rage, you know, and like give bring it in.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, all right, you're already doing that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us more.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that that post actually went pretty viral.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's I guess it resonated with a lot of people, but it's me dancing in my kitchen and it's like to some funny song, and it's sort of like a uh, you know, when like the mom rage hits and like you're not really sure why, and you can't put your fucking finger on it, but maybe it's like you're touched out, you're stressed out, you're whatever, um all of this.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I it I just sort of went on to say like it helps to put on a good old fashioned banger and just really dance it out.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think like the mom rage can boil up when you're just like over-inundated and stressed out that way, um, which we all are pretty much all the time.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like with for myself with little kids around, the the constant overstimulation of being with them really makes me bubble over at times.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can't take anything else right now, you know?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and dancing or movement, like exercise always helps to bring me down.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love it.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, parenting up whatever, you know, but bring the rage level down.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Parenting a teen, what I can say right now is the rage that comes up for me is when I don't agree with like their choices or their values or how they're like presenting in the world.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I am actively working to try not and to not judge them.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not like dangerous, it's just cringy, you know, and to not judge them.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know teenage girls particularly feel most of the time judged by adults and especially their moms.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that inner conflict that I'm dealing with, like seeing what I don't like, taming it creates rage.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and like I actually this is so helpful because I it's been a quieter rage than when they're younger.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: It actually just feels like muck, you know, and I just feel like powerless.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I think I need to start having that rage daddy.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: But that's the word, it's the powerlessness, I think, because it's also sort of like it's not going anywhere.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: The stimulation isn't going anywhere.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: The the the adolescent inner turmoil that they're going through isn't going anywhere right now.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: The the the separation isn't going anywhere right now.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: And also the other thing is the the like, we were just talking about this before we started recording, Caitlin, is this sort of like when you see your teen daughters or children, like manipulating is too strong of a word, but it's this it's this drama that they bring to the table to make you feel something.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: I already feel that with my eight-year-old daughter.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it is such a it is the biggest challenge that I have in parenting right now.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I it's and I think about it, Daily, I Google it sometimes.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what to do when you're not enjoying one of your children?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, that's it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to do.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're really making everything kind of miserable right now, and it seems like on purpose, like you want to wallow in this like feeling of drama, and you can't drag yourself out of it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, pick yourself up by your fucking bootstraps.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like whatever.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I just I don't know what I'm going to do when the hormones really kick in there.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I can relate in a little way, I think, to what you're talking about, and I'm terrified.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can tell you that you're the you're already there because right around between starting around eight and a half into well into nine is their first existential crisis.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we can talk about that later, but that's like the heart of my work, is right at the age of nine, is when shit starts to change, eight and a half, nine.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing we know is that they don't want to feel you just said this inner turmoil, they don't want to feel it alone.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they put it on you to feel it with them.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then when all of a sudden you're like, I walked into the house, I was feeling good and confident, and now I feel like shit and insecure and awkward.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's your shit that you're like putting in my lap.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that, you know?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, and I'm not enjoying this.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like for me, it's really helpful to remember, oh, I'm feeling what they're feeling.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I just can get a little more compassionate.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that to your point, they don't have the frontal cortex to know what to do with that feeling.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: So then it's our job to take care of ourselves around that inner rage or annoyance or like confusion or judgment to manage that so that they can borrow from our groundedness around it.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I feel I feel so conflicted about um some of the things that like my daughter will bring up to, you know, like be annoying about or whatever.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like she'll just have a meltdown about something.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody got something, and I didn't get something.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I have just no compassion in that moment for what she's going through, and she'll keep it going and she'll just want to like hug me the whole time and be attached to me.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, get off me.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can't stand the fact that you're this upset about this still, you know.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh yeah.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're fucking entitled.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, stop being an asshole.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, you don't get everything your friends get.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, those stories are so deep in our system.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, and it and I lack compassion in those moments too.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm not helping anyone.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: That is actually that's the magic, is to recognize that oh, I'm in a total like me against you place, and all you actually need is me to hear you.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to agree with you to validate you.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that is like when I can actually like attempt to put myself in their shoes of how hard it must be without making it right.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's our so is that the thing like we don't have to be like, listen, your priorities are all fucked up here.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you why.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like is that just you can do that later?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a it's a timing thing.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So when they're in the midst of a meltdown, our main job is to hold space for them to feel seen and heard, kind of like how we were talking about you and your partner early on.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, just appreciate me for my experience right now.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then once the dust has settled, then there's an opportunity to like revisit family values or like, you know, how are we showing trying to show up in the world and how do we live more simply, you know, and those kinds of things.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like the separating of the feeling versus the story and thoughts, right?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that in those moments you're making room for the feeling and the emotion, which we can all relate to because we're all humans, whether we're mothers or children, and to like learn how to sit with our feelings so that we can hold their feelings once they feel like their feelings are seen and heard and validated, they'll the feelings will settle.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: But that's different than the story or the thoughts or the words that they're saying.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then you call a friend.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or you get on you get on, you get on your feed, right?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the thing.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, am I is this just totally normal?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is everyone going through these same exact experiences at home?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this unique to me and I'm raising, you know, a narcissist?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, everyone is going through it.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And even the kiddo that might be more quiet or passive, that has its own world of like internal struggle because they're they're just as quirky and awkward and trying to figure out how to be a socialized human as well, but they're just keeping it quieter.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then you're guessing.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, no one, like I said at the beginning, no one gets a hole pass here.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're all little asshole narcissists at some point.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's that there too.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're grown to be.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, like if grownups walked through the world the way kids did, we would be like that human is not okay, but as kids.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: So check this out.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: My oldest daughter got on Instagram just this year.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I am very new to Instagram.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've only been on it for when we start our podcast.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: So a year and some change.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and now that she's on it, I'm like, oh, I can feel a little inner struggle.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of my regular, I mean, I've done this maybe three times or something, but I'm having a real-time moment and I'll be like, I am an adult, she is not.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: I am an adult, she is not.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like my mantra, and I'll like walk away from it and just it's so helpful because she's not.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: And now she sees that and she's like, Oh mom, what was that?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, was that after our fight in the nail salon?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or what, you know, like what happened?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, sorry, like our relationship's a little on display right now, and it's actually kind of fucking with me a little.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm I'm noticing I'm holding back and I'm wanting to be more protective, which feels appropriate, but it's tricky as a mom talking about mothering things, yeah, and having a kid follow you on Instagram.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: I will be um, I'll be in a new space at that point.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've thought about like turning like my truths into a real scripted series, perhaps.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um beautiful later down the line.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Just like maybe a show, you know, about like when about teens and mothering teens or life is at as that at that point, and not for it to be like so reality driven, um, the way that I show up on Instagram now.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I know that yeah, my kids' views of social media are gonna change.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we had our daughters on.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: We interviewed our daughters uh as for an episode and we invited them to come on and give us feedback as their mothers on Instagram, which was really hilarious.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people found Found it really useful because, you know, we were putting ourselves in the hot seat and not all the feedback was good.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it is that sort of like, okay, the reality is that we're all in this together.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Even if we can't put the responsibility on our kids to take care of us as mothers, that is not an appropriate role.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: But like truthfully, we're a team, mothers and kids, we're a team and we're trying to get through it together.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think to allow for that little bit, like, we're all gonna fuck up, we're not gonna get it right.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: But if we're moving in a direction together towards what Deb said, sort of values that we believe in, we're gonna get there.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's just gonna be really clunky along the way.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in that interview, they were unbelievably fickle and cut and contradicting themselves over and over.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And like, we want you to pay attention.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: We you're too annoying.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was constant, and we were like, oh, this is like a perfect example of absolutely everything all the time.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: I have, I'm gonna put you on the spot for a moment.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't think of anything, it's totally fine.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm wondering if you have had any feedback, any specific feedback from your work, whether it's podcast or social media, that's been particularly moving for you.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Someone who has shared something about you, you know, what you put out in the world that has reminded you of why it's important to keep going.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can't think of anything, again, I'm putting you on the spot.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: But do you have any example of that?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's no one big thing um that stands out to me, but it's like everyday little things like messages.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Some people will take the time to actually write me like a long email to thank me and stuff.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I'm always really taken aback by that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wow, I, you know, I'm so flattered that you would go so far as to thank me for saying something.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I feel like some of the things that I I say, I'm like, how could I not say that?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and other people just would never actually feel like they could say it, I guess.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's really validating and motivating to keep going because social media is a tough place, like it can be really up.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I even at this point where I have uh an amount of followers that I never thought that I would ever have on social media when I started out, I was like, that's like unattainable, right?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Over a million followers.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not trying to say that to toot my own horn at all.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel like I still get self-conscious.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: I still feel like, oh, nothing that I've said has resonated that well lately because these reels weren't performing as well as they were in July or something, you know, and what's going on?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: And do I need to switch it up or am I not, you know, relatable anymore or something?
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: And to get those little voices of messages from people that just come out of nowhere is probably the most meaningful thing to me at times to feel like I should keep doing this.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: What an incredible reminder that is to all of us to because we think it, right?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: We can think those things and we don't always connect relationally around those things, those feelings and those thoughts.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: And what a good reminder to just reach out when we're feeling that way.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because it it and the other reminder is that even those of us who are highly successful, right, have a million followers, right, are not behind the scenes.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: We're no different than you are.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: You're no different than that person who reached out.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so that kind of feedback, a reminder that you are quote unquote good or worthy or doing something valuable in the world.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: We need those reminders.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so just to just, I just love this sort of like I'm taking that in, Caitlin, being like, right, if I feel something about someone, just tell them.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: Just put a little arm out.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that is a good reminder.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think I love, I love how humble you are, and that you re I think that those moments of insecurity or self-consciousness, as you said.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see it as a negative.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: I actually see it as just your humanness coming through and being just like really encompassing the whole experience of the mind.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: When when that goes away, it equals arrogance, right?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's it's uncomfortable, but it's part of the discomfort that I think we're supposed to feel when we're living.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I will also say that you are such an impact in the world, and this world needs you.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: And like you're doing really, really important work.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll speak for both of us and probably a million of your followers that we are so grateful.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you guys so much.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: This has been one of my favorite podcast interviews.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, we wish you were sitting here with us, or we were there in Westchester with you.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: This Zoom thing, we've all gotten so used to it.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: But it is one of these days we'll, you know, I don't know, maybe we'll all sit in the same room and have a conversation about the next chapter.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I love Boulder.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to come to Boulder.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Come on out.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: We have a guest room.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, you know, I'm just gonna say Deb does run these mother-daughter workshops locally.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you could take a little venture out to Boulder and do one of these workshops and you know, come see us.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: We can do a live podcast interview while you're out here.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we can talk nine year change anytime because the more equipped you are for it, the more ability you'll have to hold her through this transformation.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then it'll be not as dramatic.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: And she'll get through it and go to the next stage of her evolution.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm feeling pretty ill-equipped right now.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna you and everybody.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think any of us feel equipped.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that's part of the messiness.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's part of the the reason that's my Instagram feed went so uh post went so viral is that you know, we think we're supposed to be equipped, and none of us are equipped.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're not the moment we think we should be equipped is the moment we start feeling anxious because we're just like, I don't know where I'm making this shit up as we go.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: We all are.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any final thoughts or anything you'd like to share with our audience as you kind of you know, what now that you're here on our side of the world?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I feel like when um when I get asked a question, sort of like along those lines, that the only thing that I really want moms to feel is that they are the best mom for their kids.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like no matter how you're doing it, you're do if it's working for you, like if it is who you are in at your core, then it is the best way to do it.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like just forget about what other people are doing and the methods that they're using and the trendy pieces of advice or whatever, just be yourself.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the only I think like real way to get through it all.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Cause at least you can fall back on the fact that you were sticking to your guns and trusting your gut and going with what you wanted to do.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: It is so powerful that I feel it pricked, I feel tearful because there literally is no other answer.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's no other answer.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's the most, it's like really all the only advice there can be.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so basic, but it's like you have to remind yourself.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they're and the kid, their kids are gonna sniff out bullshit in a heartbeat.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I love this message because it's like your kid picked you to be their mom.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's keep mothering.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: As we always say, no one should be mothering alone.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: No one should be mothering alone.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: We are so thankful that you came on and shared your heart with us.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: So doing your thing.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, where can people find you if they've never heard your work before?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Where can they find you?
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Mostly on Instagram at Big Time Adulting.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I also have a podcast called Big Time Adulting, and I have a magazine called Soul Snacks.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: What's what's the magazine?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: What is what does that mean?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like a really fun piece of content.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: I write a little reflection piece for it, and then there's a recipe, an intimacy section, um, a quick like workout if you want it, um, a playlist.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: And just like that's it.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's quick, it's a quick, easy read, just like for fun.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like a newsletter.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like an online yeah, it's the only reason why it's, I guess, maybe not considered an actual newsletter is technical, boring reason that newsletters just go to your email and this has like a a website that it lives on type thing.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Where can people find that, Caitlin?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: So if they go to my website called bigtimedulting.co, you can get to Soul Snacks from there.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: I will definitely be going.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, thank you, Caitlin.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: And let's all go get a go, let's all go get a snack.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right, Caitlyn.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: You say it.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: You say it, you do a snack.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Get yourself a snack.
• 53:37
  unknown: Woo! Woo!
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Have a great day.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Bye, ladies.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: We sure hope you enjoyed that episode.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if you did, we would really love for you to share this with a friend.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: So here's the deal: we're all in this together.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: And as a community of moms, we need to make sure that no one is left alone.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you can help us with that.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: Please share this episode or other episodes that you found useful for you.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: Please consider writing a review and rating this podcast because when you do, it actually makes it more accessible to other moms who might be looking for podcasts that they would also find useful.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we are so grateful you're here.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if you were interested in just taking a minute or two to share and rate and review, Dev and I would be so grateful.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for mothering with us.