Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / The Authentic Instagram Playbook with Sara Naheedy
Transcript
- Gary Johnson: Welcome to Un-Fuck Your Legal Marketing, the show where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F-bombs along the way. Let's get into it. This conversation is for you. I'm joined by my friend Sarah Nahidi who is a real estate attorney and broker who uses Instagram in a way that feels intentional and extremely authentic. We're going to talk about why she posts, what she posts, how she thinks about engagement and the small shifts that made a huge impact for her. We're also going to chat about the inappropriate shit that people do on Instagram and how you should handle it. So welcome Sarah to unfuck your legal marketing. you so much, Gary, for having me. I'm honored to be here, honored that you would choose to interview me on your podcast. It's a pleasure. So for anybody who doesn't know Sarah. That is all bullshit coming out of her mouth right now. Like she's good at that. She's really good at that. Okay. So what first inspired you to start using Instagram as a part of your practice? a great question. So in 2020, you know, we were all relegated to our homes and engaging with people mostly online. And I decided to really lean in. to connecting with people through video and through social media. And I decided to hire somebody who a good friend of mine who works in real estate used to create his social media presence. So I was really inspired and blown away by somebody. I know who's in the real estate space and I reached out to him. You know, I DMed him on Instagram and I said, you know, who are you using for your videos? You're doing a great job. I'd love to learn more about what you're doing and who you're working with. Yeah, I love that because I think most of us are inspired by certain individuals and we kind of go, God, I wish I could do that. And I love the fact that you took the opportunity to reach out to them and say, Hey, I love what you're doing on that. Is there any advice that you would have for me, you know, to sort of like what I'm doing right now with you, where it's like, I love what you're doing. Can you share your advice with me and with the rest of the world? But I think that was really smart. Was there anything that when you first started doing it was either awkward or uncomfortable for you or was the whole thing awkward and uncomfortable? Yeah, fuck yeah. I mean, first of all, Yes, yes, yes to all of it. mean, I don't know about you, but I hate the way I look and sound on video and social media. And I hate the sound of my own voice and how I appear to people. the biggest hurdle for me was myself. Yeah. And getting out of my own way and just saying, hey, you know, nobody loves the way they look and sound, especially when you first start. And you just need to start. Yeah, you do. I would disagree with the first statement though, because I love the way I look and sound. mean, I'm just a beautiful human being and everybody knows that. But I understand what people like you go through that are not as gorgeous as I am. But hey, we all have our gifts. We all have our gifts. I wish I could be bold and beautiful. And you know, I might use AI to create a bold and beautiful version of myself. so that I can rival you. yeah. I could just imagine you bald. That would be awesome. That would be so awesome. Don't do it though. I think I would look ridiculous. I don't think I could it off like you can. Yeah. So speaking of ridiculous, what kind of content And it has nothing to do with ridiculous, by the way. But what kind of content tends to spark actual conversations, not just a bunch of likes that are on there? So I think, so I've been working with my assistant who specializes in social media marketing on figuring out what content resonates well with my audience. And what we've found is that people love to see your face. People love to see your face. They resonate with video. they feel a sense of connection and trust when they can see, you know, look into your eyes and see what you're saying and how you're saying it. So I think being authentic, showing your face, goes a long way. And then figuring out what are the topics that you most get asked about from potential clients. Okay. Yeah. And is that in your videos and the texts that go with the picture? Yeah. We do, she sets up carousels with texts that show different topics that I frequently get asked about. And that's where we started working from. Yeah. We created a topic wheel and we created a topic wheel. What is that? topic wheel. So what are, you know, what are the topics that you get asked about the most? Okay. So when a potential client reaches out, what are the questions that you're getting? Yeah. But what is the wheel? Like the wheel is a visual of the different topics and then content and that comes that stems from those topics. you like spin the wheel and then wherever it lands, you're like, we're going to do it on this topic. It's kind of like wheel of fortune. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I've never heard that before. That's pretty fun. That is totally fun. mean, that is a great idea. I mean, so, so if I hear you right. listening to your clients, what are the topics that they're bringing up? What are the issues that they have that you're solving as an attorney? And then putting it in a wheel and going, okay, we're going to this week, we're going to talk about this or this post, we're going to talk about this. And then it gives you the kind of gives you the inspiration of, okay, this is that as opposed to God, what am I going to talk about today? We have a, we have the topic wheel and then we have a calendar where we calendar out. social media for the month. what are the topics? How often are we posting? We're posting three times a week. How is the information going to be presented? Is it going to be in a blog? Is it going to be in a static post? Is it going to be in a carousel? Is it going to be in a video? So I think consistency is key. Why? Why? Tell me why. Because I beat consistency like there's no tomorrow. But why do you feel like consistency is so important on Instagram? think it shows credibility and it keeps you top of mind. So when I first started making videos and posting on social media about real estate law, I did it for a couple months and then I took a big break. And then I did it again and then I took a big break. And so one mistake that I would fix going forward and if I, know, hindsight is 20-20. But to keep up with it as you're doing it, because when you are posting consistently, you stay top of mind and it builds your credibility when you have a regular, consistent schedule of putting out information to people. Yeah, I totally agree. And I love that you brought that up as a mistake because I find most people make that same mistake. And it's not just on Instagram, it's on anything. It's like other marketing activities, like networking. They go, go, go to a bunch of different events and then you don't see them for a quarter. And then they go to a bunch of events and then you don't see them. And you're like, what's going on? As I always say, have a long-term plan that you think that you can execute because even though you're not busy today, you're going to be busy tomorrow. so plan for that. And I love that you got the assistant. Did you get the assistant to help you with the marketing right off the bat? Or did you get them when you were, God, hairs on fire. I'm so overwhelmed right now and this is going to the wayside. yeah, I got my assistant once things really started getting a little chaotic for me. Yeah. And so again, in retrospect, I wish that I had worked with my marketing assistant from the get go. Yeah. And not brought her in after. I was spinning my wheels. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I hear you a hundred percent. That's what I did too. And I am so grateful for my assistant in so many different ways. So when we talk about content and you had thrown out carousels, videos, pictures, text, blog. What do you find for you and your audience out of those is the most engaging? Do you find every time I do this, I get the most engagement from this? So video by far and away, it resonates the most with the audience. get more engagement when I create a video. I get more comments, more people giving me feedback. when they can actually see my face and I'm creating a video and sharing content that is valuable information for people. Yeah. And I think that that's one of the key aspects, wouldn't you agree, that it has to be valuable to your target market? Absolutely. I mean, whenever I start creating an idea or deciding what I'm going to post, I always ask myself, is this bringing value? to my audience. Is this bringing value to people out in the world who are interested in learning about different topics in real estate? if it's not bringing value and it's not helping people in some way, to me, it's not going to work. It's not going to work. It's not going to be valuable. And people are not going to resonate and connect with it. Okay. So can I challenge you a little bit on that? Please. There are some people who post pictures, including myself, where they're at an event. They're at something like, I don't know, go up to Big Bear or something like that. How is that adding value to the audience? So I think when people see that you are part of a community and that you're part of a network where You're not just working with people and sharing business opportunities with them, but you're actually sharing your free time with them. I think that resonates with people and they think, wow, that's really cool. Like I want to do that. I want to be part of something where I can work with people, give them referrals, help them with their business and also spend my free time with them. So I've actually had people reach out to me from Instagram who said, you know, I joined Provisors because I saw all of your content doing events with Provisors people. And it completely blew me away. I was literally sitting at breakfast in Las Vegas, happened to be sitting next to a brand new Provisors member who I knew from years ago. And this is what she told me. And I was completely floored. Wow. Yeah. So you basically, so if I hear you right, if the audience is hearing you right, it's you love to give people FOMO. That's not the intent. That's not the intent. The intent is, hey, you know, like look at, look, I'm doing, I'm getting to do all these incredible things and have these experiences with people that I actually enjoy hanging out with in my free time as well. Yeah, true, true. And I've seen some of your posts where you're hanging out with people you don't like. So. I'm kidding. have those. you. When I'm going on a hike with Gary Johnson. Yeah. ⁓ those are the best. Are you kidding me? No, but one of the things that I love about your profile and what you're posting is you have such a, how do I say this? A nice balance between valuable information and experiences because you, you know, You do a lot of cool things, you know, whether it's with charity or it's going to a Laker game or it is going to an event. And at the same time, what's the new laws for real estate? What should we be looking for when we're buying a home, when we're buying commercial property? What's the difference in language between this and that? It's such a great blend. Is that intentional or it just happens to be go that way? So that is intentional. I want the Instagram account to be something where people are learning about real estate. People are learning about me as a person. What's important to me? Who am I? Who are my, you know, who's my family? Who are my people? What do I value? And also they feel like they know me, right? At the end of the day, when people are looking to hire a marketing coach or looking to hire a real estate attorney, they're going to be looking on the internet to see what's out there about you. And so they're going to be looking at your social media content and they're going to be investigating you. So we want people to know who we are. We want people to feel like they know what we're about. And I've had people tell me, you know, I feel like I really know you, even though I don't know you, right? People in our organization, people in our community. who I don't know very well where acquaintance is, but they tell me, feel like I know you because of the content that you share on your Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, especially with your videos, they get to experience what it's like to be around you, right? And also, and this is for the listeners as well, is you got to be authentically yourself. Because if you're some character and then they meet you in person and you're totally different, That breaks trust, that breaks your brand, right? And you're so consistent with how you show up on Instagram and also how do you show up in person, you know, because you're the same person across the board. It's not like, okay, now I put on this mask. Okay, now I put on this mask, you know, and I think that that also adds a lot of credibility and a lot of trust with potential clients and your referral sources that they can trust you more to, to be able to, you know, refer you business. I it's strong. completely agree. think you need to be authentic in order for people to connect with you. Yeah. So authenticity is always going to resonate. And when you're not being authentic and it's coming across, right, where you're wearing a different mask in different settings, people don't like that. No, they don't. It turns them away. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why people love you. I mean, you are incredibly authentic. And genuine and beautiful and beautiful and beautiful. So I think when you're authentic and you are who you are unapologetically and show up genuinely as who you are, people gravitate towards that. consistency, know, you're showing up consistently for this, that, and the other thing. Now I've heard this a lot. I don't want to post stuff on Instagram because I don't want to do TMI. I don't want to be like, know I need to be personal, but you know, do you find that there's a line that you don't want to cross? ⁓ where it ends up being TMI that people are like, Whoa, it's still authentically yourself, but people really don't need to know about some awful thing. There's so many inappropriate things that I want to say, but I'm like, Yeah, I feel you and we'll keep those, the DMs that are inappropriate conversations to another time. But yeah, I do think that you do, there is a line. And I think that you need to be cognizant of what you put out into the world of social media because you don't want something that's going to hurt your brand. Right? Like I've seen people where they were unaware that they got tagged in photos or videos where, you know, they're having a good time, they're partying, they're carrying on. And that's fine and good, but that's not the image that you want to present to the rest of the world. was great and funny and then you wake up and you're like, oh, what did I do? hasn't happened since I was quite a bit younger. Oh, that's good. Yeah. I think now that I'm a little bit older and hopefully wiser, I try not to do that. I saw a post from an attorney the other day that was apologetic because he had posted a very inappropriate post before. took it down. But he then made a post in regards to this post and taking it down. And it's so made me chuckle, you know, and I'm like, yeah, don't do things when you're not in the right frame of mind. You may think it's funny right now, but it might not be. It might be, it might be fantastic, but wait 12 hours, you know, when you are, you know, ⁓ in a more sane mind that can make good decisions so that you can go, yeah, yeah, that was funny from last night. Let's post it, you know, as opposed to God, I got to take that sucker down. ⁓ no. You know, because look, it gets up there and people can see it immediately and then they can't unsee it sometimes. yeah, it's just bad. But good for that person for even acknowledging like, Hey, I fucked up. I put something out into the world that I should have not should not have done and taking accountability and admitting that you made a mistake. That goes a long way, but to pretend like it never happened or to pretend like no big deal, right? I mean, I think, I think that that's the right thing to do. We all make mistakes. do too. the other thing that I like about what you just said is you're taking ownership. I find these days people are not taking ownership. They fuck up and they're like, ⁓ so what? And then they double down on it. And you're like, Wait, that's not right. You need to take ownership. You screwed up. Like, it's not okay to lie to people. It's not okay to take advantage of people. And then you're just going to double down because your ego's so big? That's somebody you don't want to do business with because you're going to be the one who's going to get screwed. know, when you, when you see a pattern of lack of accountability and other people, you lose trust, you lose credibility and people don't want to work with you. Yeah, it just sucks. then looking at Instagram, do you ever do track metrics? Yeah. So we do every, every Friday I meet with my assistant and we go through. that week, that prior week, what was the reach? What was the engagement? How many new followers did this create? We go through all of the metrics together to see what's working, where's the room for improvement, and to give us insight on moving forward. Again, what are people resonating with and what is the form of content that people are enjoying? Out of all of those that you track, What would you say are the most, like the most important, like this one is so good. Like if this goes up and down, we really look at that. But if something else goes up and down, it's not as important. Like, is there a specific metric that you put a lot of emphasis on trying to increase? I think it's really powerful when people share your content. So if somebody is sharing your content, if somebody is saving your content, Right. These are really good indicators that you're doing a great job. You're doing a great job of providing information that people are finding useful and valuable. So I think sharing and saving content are two of the biggest ones we look for. you can see if people have saved, because I know it shows a repost, right? But it also shows people saving. ⁓ that's fantastic. And I think that the Instagram algorithm, they reward you more so when people are sharing and saving. Cause it's seeing it as valuable content or funny. They're trying to put it out to more people because they're like, ⁓ know, people are liking this. need to get more eyes on it. Yeah. ⁓ I love that. Do you do anything in your posts to encourage people to share or to save your, your content? Yeah, so we typically do a call to action. So at the end of the post or somewhere in the post, we ask people to comment, provide feedback, to share, to save. Yeah. So yeah, you can, you can ask for that in the actual, in the post itself or in the video itself. I think it does. Okay. Good. I think it does in my experience. does. Yeah. I'm always afraid. Then I'm like, Hey, share your comments. And it's crickets like across the board. you're like, shit, come on somebody. And then I don't want to do it again. Cause I'm like, no, nobody showed up. I'm such a loser. Nobody wants to comment on my post. And that's going to happen. Right. In the beginning, you're not going to get it. You're not going to get it perfect. You're not going to knock it out of the park every time, especially in the beginning. So at the beginning people. There was no likes, there were no comments, there was hardly any views, right? But you got to start somewhere. you ever look back on your old post and cringe? Yes. Yes. Really? I'm like, what the fuck was I thinking? Why did I think that this was a good idea? And then I'm like, okay, yeah, I was being told what to do. It wasn't actually resonating with me authentically. Yeah. Yeah. And you're still alive to tell the story. Exactly. Exactly. You're not going to die if you screw up on Instagram. You're going to screw up. You're going to screw up. You're not going to love everything. It's okay. Just keep trying. Keep showing up. Be consistent and know that not everything is going to be a home run. Face hits are great. Yeah. Now you've got stories, you've got reels, you've got posts. What do you find it like? when you're looking at, this is what we're going to do, how do you decide whether somebody something is going to be like a real or if something is going to be a story or if it's just going to be a post? Is there like a, okay, we want to do a 50-50 on this or we're just going to do, you know, put everything that's a post in story or vice versa? How do you make that determination? That's a great question. And I don't determine that. My assistant does. She does. it a Sorry. Okay. Yeah. Yes, it's a she. Yeah. And her background is in social media, content, creation and marketing. So she comes up with that strategy and I'm not exactly sure how she comes up with it, but we do a mix, right? We do stories, we do reels, we do videos, we do blogs, we do posts, carousels, static posts. So we change it up. Yeah. And I don't know what formula she uses, but I know that we do the variety. Yeah. I heard that stories are the most viewed things because of one that comes right at the top. You don't have to scroll down. You're just kind of swiping over. It's the first thing that you have eyes on. Right. So when you log into Instagram, if somebody has a story, that's the first thing that you see. So that's the first thing people are going to click on. yes, I agree. Do you ever go onto Instagram on your laptop? I used to, I don't do that anymore. Why? Because I can get sucked in to the black hole of social media. Wait, wait, wait. Yes. But wouldn't you get more sucked in on your phone than on that? Maybe, maybe, but I don't. I don't even want to associate my phone only with Instagram. So I don't want to have another way to view social media, so I don't view social media on my laptop. Really? Yeah. That's interesting. And I also have settings where I limit my time. So how much time do you spend on Instagram daily? Is it like six, seven hours? Do you work? So I don't work at all. spend seven hours a day on social media. No, I do have a one hour limitation. Per day. Per day. Wait, now is that both personal and business? Yes, yes. Wow. Okay, so let me challenge you on this because you, and this isn't just for Instagram, you are so conscientious about responding to people. And anytime that like I've ever sent you a message, whether it's an Instagram or email or something, you're so conscientious about that. That sometimes I'm like, is she not on Instagram ever? Like, because it's very quick. It's very like, it's usually very witty too, but like it's, it's quick. Whereas I'll sometimes go days without being on Instagram. And then all of a I pop up and I'm like, ⁓ my God, I got 20 messages in here. And it's like, okay, let's go through it. And most of them are just stupid, inappropriate reels that my friends send to me. But you're not on all the time, like... No, no, I have to limit myself because I'll get sucked into... doom scrolling and spending hours on social media. So I get the notifications and I'll see that somebody had messaged me and I'll respond to that. But I'm very mindful of not going beyond my one hour limitation because I need to be productive. I need to bill. I need to do my networking. I need to run my business. my God. Yeah. And you're doing so much. That's why I'm always like, How did she find the time for all this stuff? Because I know how busy you are with your practice, but then you've got the marketing, you've got the leadership of running your own provisor group, you've got an extensive network, you're always out and about, very social too. And I'm like, how the hell does she do it all? Like, it's impressive. I have to say, it's very impressive. you know, I delegate it, right? So my assistant has my login. She has my login. She's doing the postings. I don't post any of it. She does it. Does she ever engage for you? She does not. I've thought about that and something to do in the future, but right now I'm doing all the actual engagement. Yeah. Yeah. Which I would, you know, sometimes I recommend that, especially if it's Especially if somebody is asking for legal advice or, Hey, what are your thoughts about this? And I shouldn't even say legal advice because you really can't give quote unquote legal advice, but you can help navigate people here and there, or it's been my experience that da da da da da. Okay. Last thing. Last question. What is one thing that you have seen people do time and time again, that you're like, that's a mistake. there, but the people still. just as a collective whole do it and you just shake your head and go, why are they doing this? That's a good question. I think that when people are coming from a place of me, me, me, right? Like I'm so great. I'm so great. I'm the best. Look at me. All eyes on me. Right? Like that is a huge turnoff for me personally. And I think for a lot of people. So I think. coming from the place of a leadership mindset of what can I do to be of service to other people? What can I do to help other people? So we never want to sound like we're bragging or telling people how great we are. And so when you and I are both connected to people, that it's that person's world and nobody else exists beyond that. But that's not for me, right? Like that's not for me, it's not for you, right? Make it about other people, make it about, you know. helping others. Yeah, I totally agree. It's the, what do they call it? The go-giver attitude of just give, give and keep giving because it'll always come back. Whereas, Hey, look how great I am. It's, it's very egotistical, arrogant. Most people, not everybody, most people just do not care for that. They're like, really? Okay. I get it. You think, you think highly of yourself and I try and scroll right by those people or just unfollow them, you know. Unfollow, mute, you need to do to not Just get rid of those people. And typically I find that those people show up in real life the same way too. And you just go, ⁓ this is the reason why we don't hang out. This is the reason why you're not in my network, you know, so on and so forth. So ⁓ yeah, these have been gems. there's a couple of... Gems that I want to repeat that you had said that I think is so valuable. The first one is get an assistant, get somebody to help you with this because lawyers are not experts at Instagram. They're not expert at social media. Get somebody to help you out. Make sure that you're showing your face, whether it's a video, it's pictures. People trust that in so many different ways. Make a topic wheel. I freaking love this topic wheel. where you're thinking about what are the topics that my clients typically bring up? What are the problems that I solve for my clients? Make a wheel because then it'll help you with having consistent posts on a regular basis. Don't jump into it full force and then jump out of it a month or two later for a few months. That's going to hurt. Your reputation is going to help hurt your credibility. It's not also going to hurt your algorithm and what the algorithm thinks of you, but mix up the different types of posts that you have, whether it is stories, reels, post, carousels, mix it up because people love the variety and be authentically yourself, be intentional, track the shit. And really put a lot of emphasis on the sharing and the saving because that helps out with all the other numbers. Have a call to action for them to do it. And, ⁓ don't do the me, me, me, me, me. And then lastly is limit the amount of time that you're spending on it. That's appropriate for your practice so that you can be consistent and not waste a ton of time going down the rabbit holes. This. has been a freaking masterclass. Thank you, Sarah. Holy shit. This so good. So good. I owe so much of my marketing game plan to you. mean, working with you has been instrumental in changing my outlook and making what I do very intentional. So thank you so much. My pleasure. You've been a huge blessing for me. it's a pleasure because I consider you a very, very good friend. So thank you. Thank you. Those are very sweet words. And it makes me so uncomfortable when you say it too, because usually you're disparaging the shit out of me. one thing that you taught me that I do want to put out into the world is, know, when I first started off, I used to write people thank you cards. Yeah. And something I came back to that has been a game changer for me that I relearned through you is the power of handwritten thank you cards. Yeah. I mean, you can't even imagine the reactions I get from people when they receive my thank you cards and they're just completely blown away and so touched that I would actually put a letter in the mail and write them a card, you know, because it's old school, right? We don't do it anymore. don't and nobody does it. And because they don't do it, it's that much more impactful. Yeah. And I love that you're doing it. And that's the thing that you've always been great at is you learn and you execute. You don't just learn and then don't do shit. You actually do the stuff and then you also look at it and go, okay, what am I doing? That's really working. What am I doing? That's not working. And how do we adjust? I mean, that's the brilliance that you have that you're like, you can take that information in. Like when we were coaching, it was amazing. It was always like, you're like, okay, let me share with you. This is a, I'm like, ⁓ my God, I love this because you're executing. ⁓ and that's what makes you so successful. So. Thank you. And I think having an accountability partner is huge. Because I, you know, we all wane, we wax and wane with our motivation. I don't always have motivation to do something, but I know that if somebody else is there to hold me accountable, I'm going to do it. Amen. I'm with you, 100%. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for having me. This was fun. My pleasure. And hopefully you'll come on again and we'll talk about something totally different. Yes. All right, bye all. That's it for today's episode of unfuck your legal market if you got a spark of inspiration Learn something new or at least got a good laugh. Make sure to follow rate and Share this with someone who needs to hear it Thanks for hanging out with me and remember the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you See you next time