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Phaedrus - Plato · Educational Book Collection

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  Speaker 1: Section one of Pidrus by Plato. This is a LibriVox recording.
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  Speaker 1: All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more
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  Speaker 1: information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox dot org. Recording
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  Speaker 1: by Martin Geeson. Phidrus by Plato, translated by Benjamin Jowett,
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  Speaker 1: Section one Persons of the Dialog Socrates Phidrus scene under
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  Speaker 1: a plane tree by the banks of the Ilissus. My
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  Speaker 1: dear Phidrus, whence come you? And whither are you going?
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  Speaker 1: I come from Lyseas, the son of Caphalus, and I
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  Speaker 1: am going to take a walk out side the wall,
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  Speaker 1: for I have been sitting with him the whole morning,
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  Speaker 1: and our common friend Acumenus tells me that it is
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  Speaker 1: much more refreshing to walk in the open air than
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  Speaker 1: to be shut up in a cloister. There he is right, Lucius,
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  Speaker 1: then I suppose was in the town. Yes, he was
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  Speaker 1: staying with Epicrates here at the house of Monicus, that
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  Speaker 1: house which is near the temple of Olympian Zeus. Ah,
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  Speaker 1: And how did he entertain you? Could I be wrong
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  Speaker 1: in supposing that Lucias gave you a feast of discourse?
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  Speaker 1: You shall hear if you can spare time to accompany me. Ah,
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  Speaker 1: And should I not deem the conversation of you and
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  Speaker 1: lucias a thing of higher import, as I may say
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  Speaker 1: in the words of Pindar than any business. Will you
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  Speaker 1: go on? And will you go on? With the narration?
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  Speaker 1: My tale, Socrates, is one of your sort, for love
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  Speaker 1: was the theme which occupied us. Love. After a fashion,
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  Speaker 1: Lucius has been writing about a fair youth who was
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  Speaker 1: being tempted, but not by a lover, and this was
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  Speaker 1: the point he ingeniously proved that the non lover should
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  Speaker 1: be accepted rather than the lover. Oh, that is noble
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  Speaker 1: of him. I wish that he would say the poor
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  Speaker 1: man rather than the rich, and the old man rather
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  Speaker 1: than the young one. Then he would meet the case
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  Speaker 1: of me and many a man. His words would be
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  Speaker 1: quite refreshing, and he would be a public benefactor. For
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  Speaker 1: my part. I do so long to hear his speech
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  Speaker 1: that if you walk all the way to Megara, and
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  Speaker 1: when you have reach'd the wall, come back, as Herodicous recommends,
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  Speaker 1: without going in, I will keep you company. What do
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  Speaker 1: you mean, my good Socrates, How can you imagine that
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  Speaker 1: my unpracticed memory can do justice to such an elaborate work,
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  Speaker 1: which the greatest retorician of the age spent a long
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  Speaker 1: time in composing. Indeed, I cannot, I would give a
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  Speaker 1: great deal if I could. I believe that I know
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  Speaker 1: Fidress about as well as I know myself. And I
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  Speaker 1: am very sure that the speech of Lucias was repeated
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  Speaker 1: to him, not once only, but again and again. He
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  Speaker 1: insisted on hearing it many times over, and Lucius was
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  Speaker 1: very willing to gratify him. At last, when nothing else
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  Speaker 1: would do, he got hold of the book and looked
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  Speaker 1: at what he most wanted to see. This occupied him
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  Speaker 1: during the whole morning, and then when he was tired
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  Speaker 1: with sitting, he went out to take a walk. Not
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  Speaker 1: until by the dog, as I believe, he had simply
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  Speaker 1: learned by heart the entire discourse, unless it was unusually long,
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  Speaker 1: and he went to a place outside the wall that
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  Speaker 1: he might practice his lesson. There he he saw a
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  Speaker 1: certain lover of discourse who had a similar weakness. He
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  Speaker 1: saw and rejoiced. Now thought he I shall have a
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  Speaker 1: partner in my revels, and he invited him to come
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  Speaker 1: and walk with him. But when the lover of discourse
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  Speaker 1: begged that he would repeat the tale. He gave himself
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  Speaker 1: airs and said, no, I can not, as if he
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  Speaker 1: were indisposed, although if the hearer had refused, he would
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  Speaker 1: sooner or later have been compelled by him to listen,
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  Speaker 1: whether he would or no. Therefore, fight us, bid him
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  Speaker 1: do at once what he soon will do, whether bidden
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  Speaker 1: or not. I see that you will not let me
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  Speaker 1: off until I speak in some way, fashion or other. Verily, therefore,
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  Speaker 1: my best plan is to speak as I best can,
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  Speaker 1: a very true remark that of yours. I will do
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  Speaker 1: as I say. But believe me, Socrates, I did not
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  Speaker 1: learn the very words. No. Nevertheless, I have a general
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  Speaker 1: notion of what he said, and will give you a
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  Speaker 1: summary of the points in which the lover differed from
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  Speaker 1: the non lover. Let me begin at the beginning. M Yes,
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  Speaker 1: my sweet one, but you must first of all show
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  Speaker 1: what you have in your left hand under your cloak
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  Speaker 1: for that role, as I suspect, is the actual discourse. Now,
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  Speaker 1: much as I love you, I would not have you suppose,
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  Speaker 1: but I am going to have your memory exercised at
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  Speaker 1: my expense. If you have Lysias himself here enough, I
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  Speaker 1: see that I have no hope of practicing my art
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  Speaker 1: upon you. But if I am to read, where would
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  Speaker 1: you please to sit? Let us turn aside and go
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  Speaker 1: by the Ilisses. We will sit down at some quiet spot.
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  Speaker 1: I am fortunate in not having my sandals, and as
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  Speaker 1: you never have any, I think that we may go
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  Speaker 1: along the brook and cool our feet in the water.
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  Speaker 1: This will be the easiest way, and at midday and
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  Speaker 1: in the summer, is far from being unpleasant. Lead on
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  Speaker 1: and look out for a place in which we can
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  Speaker 1: sit down. Do you see the tallest plane tree in
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  Speaker 1: the distance. Yes, there are shade and gentle breezes and
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  Speaker 1: grass on which we may either sit or lie down.
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  Speaker 1: Move forward. I should like to know, Socrates, whether the
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  Speaker 1: place is not somewhere here at which Boreas is said
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  Speaker 1: to have carried off Orithea from the banks of the Ilissus.
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  Speaker 1: Such is the tradition, And is this the exact spot?
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  Speaker 1: The little stream is delightfully clear and bright. I can
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  Speaker 1: fancy that there might be maidens playing near. I believe
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  Speaker 1: that the spot is not exactly here, but about a
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  Speaker 1: quarter of a mile lower down, where you cross to
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  Speaker 1: the temple of Artemis, and there is I think some
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  Speaker 1: sort of an altar of Boreas at the place. Ah,
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  Speaker 1: I have never noticed it, but I beseech you to
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  Speaker 1: tell me, Socrates, do you believe this tale? The wise
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  Speaker 1: are doubtful, and I should not be singular. If like
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  Speaker 1: them I too doubted. I might have a rational explanation
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  Speaker 1: that Orithea was playing with var Machia when a northern
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  Speaker 1: dust carried her over the neighboring rocks, and this being
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  Speaker 1: the manner of her death, she was said to have
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  Speaker 1: been carried away by Boreas. There is a discrepancy, however,
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  Speaker 1: about the locality. According to another version of the story,
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  Speaker 1: she was taken from Areopagus, and not from this place.
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  Speaker 1: Now I quite acknowledge that these allegories are very nice,
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  Speaker 1: But he is not to be envied who has to
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  Speaker 1: invent them. Much labor and ingenuity will be requir'd of him.
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  Speaker 1: And when he has once begun, he must go on
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  Speaker 1: and rehabilitate hippo centaurs and chimeras, dire gorgans and winged
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  Speaker 1: steeds flow in apace, and numberless other inconceivable and portentous natures.
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  Speaker 1: And if he is skeptical about them, and would fain,
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  Speaker 1: reduce them one after another to the rules of probability.
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  Speaker 1: This sort of crude philosophy will take up a great
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  Speaker 1: deal of time. Now I have no leisure for such inquiries.
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  Speaker 1: Shall I tell you why? I must first know myself,
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  Speaker 1: as the Delphian inscription says, to be curious about that
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  Speaker 1: which is not my concern while I am still in
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  Speaker 1: ignorance of my own self would be ridiculous. And therefore
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  Speaker 1: I bid farewell to all this. The common opinion is
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  Speaker 1: enough for me, For as I was saying, I want
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  Speaker 1: to know not about this but about myself. Am I
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  Speaker 1: a monster more complicated and swollen with passion than the
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  Speaker 1: serpent teoful? Or a creature of a gentler and simpler
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  Speaker 1: sort to whom nature has given a diviner and lowlier destiny.
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  Speaker 1: But let me ask you, friend, have we not reach'd
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  Speaker 1: the plane tree to which you were conducting us? Yet
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  Speaker 1: this is the tree by hearer, a fair resting place
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  Speaker 1: full of summer sounds and scents. Here is this lofty
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  Speaker 1: and spreading plane tree, and the agnoscastus high and clustering
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  Speaker 1: in the fullest blossom and the greatest fragrance. And the
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  Speaker 1: stream which flows beneath the plane tree is deliciously cold
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  Speaker 1: to the feet. Judging from the ornaments and images, this
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  Speaker 1: must be a spot sacred to Achilous and the nymphs. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: how delightful is the breeze, so very sweet? And there
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  Speaker 1: is a sound in the air, shrill and summer like,
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  Speaker 1: which makes answer to the chorus of the Ciicardi. But
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  Speaker 1: the greatest charm of all is the grass, like a pillow,
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  Speaker 1: gently slooping to the head. My dear fight Russ, you
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  Speaker 1: have been an admirable guide. End of section one, Section two,
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  Speaker 1: What an incomprehensible being. You are Socrates when you are
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  Speaker 1: in the country, as you say, you really are like
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  Speaker 1: some stranger who is led about by a guide. Do
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  Speaker 1: you ever cross the border? I rather think that you
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  Speaker 1: never venture even outside the gates. Very true, my good friend,
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  Speaker 1: and I hope that you will excuse me when you
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  Speaker 1: hear the reason, which is that I am a lover
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  Speaker 1: of knowledge, and the men who dwell in the city
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  Speaker 1: are my teachers, and not the trees or the country.
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  Speaker 1: Though I do indeed believe that you have found a
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  Speaker 1: spell with which to draw me out of the city
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  Speaker 1: into the country, like a hungry cow before whom a
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  Speaker 1: bough a bunch of fruit is waved for only hold
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  Speaker 1: up before me in like manner a book, and you
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  Speaker 1: may lead me all round Attica and over the wide world.
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  Speaker 1: And now having arrived, I intend to lie down, And
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  Speaker 1: do you choose any posture in which you can read best? Begin? Listen.
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  Speaker 1: You know how matters stand with me, and how as
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  Speaker 1: I conceive the affair may be arranged for the advantage
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  Speaker 1: of both of us. And I maintain that I ought
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  Speaker 1: not to fail in my suit, because I am not
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  Speaker 1: your lover. For lovers repent of the kindnesses which they
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  Speaker 1: have shown when their passion ceases. But to the non lovers,
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  Speaker 1: who are free and not under any compulsion, no time
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  Speaker 1: of repentance ever comes. For they confer their benefits according
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  Speaker 1: to the measure of their ability in the way which
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  Speaker 1: is most conducive to their own interest. Then again, lovers
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  Speaker 1: consider how, by reason of their love they have neglected
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  Speaker 1: their own concerns and and a service to others. And
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  Speaker 1: when do these benefits conferred, they add on the troubles
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  Speaker 1: which they have endured. They think that they have long
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  Speaker 1: ago made to the beloved a very ample return. But
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  Speaker 1: the non lover has no such tormenting recollections. He has
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  Speaker 1: never neglected his affairs or quarreled with his relations. He
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  Speaker 1: has no troubles to add up or excuses to invent,
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  Speaker 1: and being well rid of all these evils, why should
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  Speaker 1: he not really do what will gratify the beloved? If
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  Speaker 1: you say that the lover is more to be esteemed
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  Speaker 1: because his love is thought to be greater, for he
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  Speaker 1: is willing to say and do what is hateful to
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  Speaker 1: other men in order to please his beloved. That, if true,
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  Speaker 1: is only a proof that he will prefer any future
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  Speaker 1: love to his present, and will injure his old love
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  Speaker 1: at the pleasure of the new. And how in a
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  Speaker 1: matter of such infinite importance can a man be right
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  Speaker 1: in trusting himself to one who is afflicted with a
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  Speaker 1: malady which no experienced person would attempt to cure. For
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  Speaker 1: the patient himself admits that he is not in his
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  Speaker 1: right mind, and acknowledges that he is wrong in his mind,
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  Speaker 1: but says that he is unable to control himself. And
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  Speaker 1: if he came to his right mind, would he ever
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  Speaker 1: imagine that the desires were good which he conceived when
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  Speaker 1: in his wrong mind? Once more, there are many more
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  Speaker 1: non lovers than lovers. And if you choose the best
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  Speaker 1: of the lovers, you will not have many to choose from,
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  Speaker 1: But if from the non lovers, the choice will be larger,
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  Speaker 1: and you will be far more likely to find among
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  Speaker 1: them a person who is worthy of your friendship. If
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  Speaker 1: public opinion be your dread, and you would avoid reproach
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  Speaker 1: in all probability, the lover, who is always thinking that
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  Speaker 1: other men are as emulous of him as he is
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  Speaker 1: of them, will boast to someone of his successes and
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  Speaker 1: make a show of them openly in the pride of
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  Speaker 1: his heart. He wants others to know that his labor
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  Speaker 1: has not been lost. But the non is more his
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  Speaker 1: own master, and is desirous of solid good and not
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  Speaker 1: the opinion of mankind. Again, the lover may be generally
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  Speaker 1: noted or seen following the beloved. This is his regular occupation,
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  Speaker 1: and whenever they are observed to exchange two words, they
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  Speaker 1: are supposed to meet about some affair of love, either
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  Speaker 1: past or in contemplation. But when non lovers meet, no
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  Speaker 1: one asks the reason why, because people know that talking
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  Speaker 1: to another is natural, Whether friendship or mere pleasure, be
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  Speaker 1: the motive. Once more, if you fear the fickleness of friendship,
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  Speaker 1: consider that in any other case a quarrel might be
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  Speaker 1: mutual calamity. But now, when you have given up what
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  Speaker 1: is most precious to you, you will be the greater loser,
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  Speaker 1: and therefore you will have more reason in being afraid
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  Speaker 1: of the lover. For his vexations are many, and he
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  Speaker 1: is always fancying that everyone is leagued against him. Wherefore
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  Speaker 1: also he debars his beloved from society. He will not
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  Speaker 1: have you intimate with the wealthy, lest they should exceed
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  Speaker 1: him in wealth, or with men of education, lest they
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  Speaker 1: should be his superiors in understanding. And he is equally
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  Speaker 1: afraid of anybody's influence who has any other advantage over himself.
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  Speaker 1: If he can persuade you to break with them, you
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  Speaker 1: are left without a friend in the world. Or if,
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  Speaker 1: out of a regard to your own interest, you have
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  Speaker 1: more sense than to comply with his desire, you will
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  Speaker 1: have to quarrel with him. But those who are non lovers,
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  Speaker 1: and whose success in love is the reward of their merit,
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  Speaker 1: will not be jealous of the companions of their beloved,
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  Speaker 1: and will rather hate those who refuse to be his associates,
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  Speaker 1: thinking that their favorite is slighted by the latter and
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  Speaker 1: benefited by the former, for more love than hatred may
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  Speaker 1: be expected to come to him out of his friendship
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  Speaker 1: with others. Many lovers, too, have lov'd the person of
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  Speaker 1: a youth before they knew his character or his belongings,
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  Speaker 1: so that when their passion has passed away, there is
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  Speaker 1: no knowing whether they will continue to be his friends.
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  Speaker 1: Whereas in the case of non lovers who were always friends,
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  Speaker 1: the friendship is not lessen'd by the favors granted, but
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  Speaker 1: the recollection of these remains with them and is an
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  Speaker 1: earnest of good things to come. Further, I say that
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  Speaker 1: you are likely to be improv'd by me, whereas the
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  Speaker 1: lover will spoil you, for they praise your words and
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  Speaker 1: actions in a wrong way, partly because they are afraid
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  Speaker 1: of offending you, and also their judgment is weaken'd by passion.
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  Speaker 1: Such are the feats which love exhibits. He makes things
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  Speaker 1: painful to the disc appointed, which give no pain to others.
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  Speaker 1: He compels the successful lover to praise what ought not
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  Speaker 1: to give him pleasure, and therefore the beloved is to
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  Speaker 1: be pitied rather than envied. But if you listen to
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  Speaker 1: me in the first place, I, in my intercourse with you,
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  Speaker 1: shall not merely regard present enjoyment, but also future advantage,
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  Speaker 1: being not mastered by love but my own master. Nor
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  Speaker 1: for small causes, taking violent dislikes, but even when the
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  Speaker 1: cause is great, slowly laying up little wrath, unintentional offenses,
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  Speaker 1: I shall forgive, and intentional ones I shall try to prevent.
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  Speaker 1: And these are the marks of a friendship which will last.
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  Speaker 1: Do you think that a lover only can be a
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  Speaker 1: firm friend? Reflect If this were true, we should set
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  Speaker 1: small value on sons, or fathers or mothers. Nor should
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  Speaker 1: we ever have loyal friends, for our love of them
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  Speaker 1: arises not from passion, but from other associations. Further, if
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  Speaker 1: we ought to shower favors on those who are the
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  Speaker 1: most eager suitors, on that principle, we ought always to
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  Speaker 1: do good, not to the most virtuous, but to the
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  Speaker 1: most needy, For they are the persons who will be
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  Speaker 1: most relieved, and will therefore be the most grateful. And
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  Speaker 1: when you make a feast, you should invite not your
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  Speaker 1: frien friend, but the beggar and the empty soul, for
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  Speaker 1: they will love you and attend you, and come about
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  Speaker 1: your doors, and will be the best pleased and the
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  Speaker 1: most grateful, and will invoke many a blessing on your head. Yet,
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  Speaker 1: surely you ought not to be granting favors to those
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  Speaker 1: who beseech you with prayer, but to those who are
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  Speaker 1: best able to reward you, Nor to the lover only,
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  Speaker 1: but to those who are worthy of love. Nor to
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  Speaker 1: those who will enjoy the bloom of your youth, but
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  Speaker 1: to those who will share their possessions with you in age,
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  Speaker 1: nor to those who, having succeeded, will glory in their
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  Speaker 1: success to others, but to those who will be modest
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  Speaker 1: and tell no tales, Nor to those who cared about
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  Speaker 1: you for a moment only, but to those who will
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  Speaker 1: continue your friends through life. Nor to those who, when
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  Speaker 1: their passion is over, will pick a quarrel with you,
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  Speaker 1: But rather to those who, when the charm of youth
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  Speaker 1: has left you, will show their own virtue. Remember what
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  Speaker 1: I have said, and consider yet this further point. Friends,
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  Speaker 1: admonish the lover under the idea that his way of
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  Speaker 1: life is bad, But no one of his kindred ever
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  Speaker 1: yet censured the non lover, or thought that he was
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  Speaker 1: ill advised about his own interests. Perhaps you will ask
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  Speaker 1: me whether I propose that you should indulge every non lover,
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  Speaker 1: to which I reply that not even the lover would
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  Speaker 1: advise you to indulge all lovers, for the indiscriminate favor
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  Speaker 1: is less esteemed by the rational recipient and less easily
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  Speaker 1: hidden by him who would escape the censure of the world.
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  Speaker 1: Now love ought to be for the advantage of both parties,
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  Speaker 1: and for the injury of neither. I believe that I
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  Speaker 1: have said enough. But if there is anything more which
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  Speaker 1: you desire, or which, in your opinion, needs to be supplied,
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  Speaker 1: ask and I will answer. End of section two, Section three. Now, Socrates,
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  Speaker 1: what do you think is not the discourse excellent? More
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  Speaker 1: especially in the matter of the language, Yes, quite admirable.
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  Speaker 1: The effect on me was ravishing, and this I owe
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  Speaker 1: to you, Fightreus, for I observ'd you while reading to
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  Speaker 1: be in an ecstasy, and thinking that you are more
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  Speaker 1: experienced in these matters than I am. I followed your example,
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  Speaker 1: and like you, my divine darling, I became inspired with
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: a frienzy. Indeed, you are pleased to be merry? Do
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  Speaker 1: you mean that I am not in earnest? Now don't
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: talk in that way, Socrates, But let me have your
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: real opinion. I adjure you, by Zeus, the god of friendship,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: to tell me whether you think that any Helene could
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: have said more nor spoken better on the same subject. Wow,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: But are you and I expected to praise the sentiments
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: of the author or only the clearness and roundness and
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: finish and to aneuur of the language. As to the first,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I willingly submit to your better judgment, for I am
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: not worthy to form an opinion, having only attended to
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: the rhetorical manner. And I was doubting whether this could
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: have been defended even by Lucius himself. I thought, will
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I speak under correction that he repeated himself two or
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: three times, either from want of words or from want
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: of pains, And all so he appear'd to me ostentatiously
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: to exult in shewing how well he could say the
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: same thing in two or three ways. Poh, nonsense, Socrates.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: What you call repetition was the especial merit of the speech,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: for he omitted no topic of which the subject rightly allowed.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: And I do not think that any one could have
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: spoken better or more exhaustively. Dare I cannot go along
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: with you ancient sages, men and women who have spoken
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: and written of these things would rise up in judgment
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: against me if out of complaiscence I assented to you.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Who are they? And where did you hear anything better
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: than this? I am sure that I must have heard,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: but at this moment I do not remember from whom,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: perhaps from Sappho the Fair, or Anacreon the Wise, or
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: possibly from a prose writer. Why do I say so?
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Why because I perceive that my possum is full, and
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: that I could make another speech as good as that
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: of Lucias and different. Now I am certain that this
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: is not an invention of my own. Who am well
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: aware that I know nothing, and therefore I can only
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: infer that I have been fill'd through the ears like
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: a picture from the waters of another. Though I have
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: actually forgotten in my stupidity who was my informant? That
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: is grand, But never mind where you heard the discourse
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: or from whom. Let that be a mystery not to
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: be divulged even at my earnest desire. Only, as you say,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: promise to make another and better oration, equal in length
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: and entirely new, on the same subject, And I, like
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: the nine Archons, will promise to set up a golden
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: image at Delphi, not only of myself, but of you,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: and as large as life, you are a dear golden ass.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: If you suppose me to mean that Lucias has altogether
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: missed the mark, and that I can make speech from
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: which all his arguments are to be excluded, the worst
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: of authors will say something which is to the point. Who,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: for example, could speak on this thesis of yours without
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: praising the discretion of the non lover and blaming the
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: indiscretion of the lover. These are the common places of
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: the subject which must come in, for what else is
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: there to be said? And must be allowed and excused.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: The only merit is in the arrangement of them, for
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: there can be none in the invention. But when you
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: leave the common places, then there may be some originality.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I admit that there is reason in what you say,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: and I too will be reasonable and will allow you
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: to start with the premise that the lover is more
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: disordered in his wits than the non lover. If in
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: what remains you make a longer and better speech than
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Lysias and use other arguments, then I say again that
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: a statue you shall have of beaten gold, and take
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: your place by the colossal offerings of the cupsilids at Olympia.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: How profoundly in earnest is the lover, because to tease
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: him I lay a finger upon his love, and so
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: phidrous you really imagine that I am going to improve
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: upon the ingenuity of Lucias there I have you as
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: you had me, and you must just speak as you
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: best can. No, do not let us exchange to quackware,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: as in a farce, or compel me to say to
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: you as you said to me. I know Socrates as
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: well as I know myself, and he was wanting to speak,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: but he gave himself airs. Rather, I would have you
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: consider that from this place we stir, not not until
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: you have unbosomed yourself of the speech. For here are
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: we all alone, and I am stronger, remember, and younger
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: than you. Wherefore perpend, and do not compel me to
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: use violence. Ha ha ha ha. But my sweet Fidrus, how
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: ridiculous it would be of me to compete with Lysias
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: in an extent empress speech. He is a master in
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: his art, and I am an untaught man. You see
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: how matters stand. And therefore let there be no more pretenses.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: For indeed I know the word that is irresistible. Then
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: don't say it. Yes, but I will, and my word
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: shall be an oath. I say, or rather swear, But
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: what God will be witness of my oath by this
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: plain tree. I swear that unless you repeat the discourse
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: here in the face of this very plain tree, I
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: will never tell you another never let you have word
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: of another villain. I am conquered. The poor lover of
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: discourse has no more to say. Then why are you
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: still at your tricks? I am not going to play
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: tricks now that you have taken the oath, for I
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: cannot allow myself to be starved. Proceed Shall I tell
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: you what I will do? What I will veil my
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: face and gallop through the discourse as fast as I can,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: For if I see you, I shall feel ashamed and
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: not know what to say. Only go on, and you
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: may do anything else which you please. Now come, O
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: ye muses, meldious, as ye are called, whether you have
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: received this name from the character of your strains or
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: because the millions are a musical race. Help, oh, help
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: me in the tale which my good friend here desires
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: me to rehearse in order that his friend whom he
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: always deemed wise, may seem to him to be wiser
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: than ever. Once upon a time there was a fair boy,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: or more properly speaking, a youth. He was very fair
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: and had a great many lovers. And there was one
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: special cunning one who had persuaded the youth that he
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: did not love him, but he really loved him all
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: the same. And one day, when he was paying his
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: addresses to him, he used this very argument that he
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: all to accept the non lover rather than the lover
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: his words. Whereas follows, all good counsel begins in the
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: same way. A man should know what he is advising about,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: or his counsel will all come to nought. But people
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: imagine that they know about the nature of things when
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: they don't know about them, and not having come to
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: an understanding at first, because they think that they know,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: they end, as might be expected, in contradicting one another
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: and themselves. Now you and I must not be guilty
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: of this fundamental error, which we condemn in others. But
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: as our question is whether the lover or the non
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: lover is to be preferred, let us first of all
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: agree in defining the nature and power of love, and then,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: keeping our eyes upon the definition and to this appealing,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: let us further inquire whether love brings advantage or disadvantage.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Everyone sees that love is a desire, and we know
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: also that non lovers desire the beautiful and good. Now,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: in what way is the lover to be distinguished from
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: the non lover? Let us note that in every one
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: of us there are two guiding and ruling principles which
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: lead us whither they will. One is the natural desire
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: of pleasure. The other is an acquired opinion, which aspires
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: after the best. And these two are sometimes in harmony,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: and then again at war, And sometimes the one, sometimes
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: the other conquers. When opinion, by the help of reason,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: leads us to the best, the conquering principle is called temperance.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: But when desire, which is devoid of reason, rules in
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: us and drags us to pleasure, that power of misrule
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: is called excess. Now, excess has many names, and many members,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: and many forms. And any of these forms, when very marked,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: gives a name neither honorable nor creditable to the bearer
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: of the name. The desire of eating, for example, which
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: gets the better of the higher reason, and the other
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: desires is called gluttony, and he who is possessed by
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: it is called a glutton. The tyrannical desire of drink,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: which inclines the possessor of the desire to drink, has
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: a name which is only too obvious. And there can
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: be as little doubt by what name any other appetite
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: of the same family would be called. It will be
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: the name of that which happens to be dominant. And
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: now I think that you will perceive the drift of
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: my discourse. But as every spoken word is in a
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: manner plainer than the unspoken, I had better say further
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: that the irrational desire which overcomes the tendency of opinion
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: towards right, and is led away to the enjoyment of beauty,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: and especially of personal beauty, by the desires which are
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: her own kindred, that supreme desire, I say, which by
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: leading conquers, and by the force of passion, is reinforced.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: From this very force receiving a name, is called love
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: erominous heros. End of section three, Section four. And now,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: dear Fidrus, I shall pause for an instant to ask
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: whether you do not think me as I appear to
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: myself inspir'd yees, Socrates, you seem to have a very
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: un usual flow of words. Listen to me then, in silence,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: For surely the place is wholly, so that you must
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: not wonder if, as I proceed, I appear to be
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: in a divine fury. For already I am getting into dillirambics.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Nothing can be truer. The responsibility rests with you. But
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: hear what follows, and perhaps the fit may be averted.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: All is in their hands above. I will go on
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: talking to my youth. Listen, thus, my friend, we have
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: declared and defined the nature of the subject. Keeping the
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: definition in view, let us now inquire what advantage or
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: disadvantage is likely to ensue from the lover or the
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: non lover to him who accepts their advances. He who
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: is the victim of his passions and the slave of pleasure,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: will of course desire to make his beloved as agreeable
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: to himself as possible. Now to him who has a
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: mind diseased, anything is agreeable which is not opposed to him,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: but that which is equal or superior is hateful to him.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: And therefore the lover will not brook any superiority or
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: equality on the part of his beloved, he is always
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: employed in reducing him to inferiority. And the ignorant is
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: the inferior of the wise, the coward of the brave,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: the slow of speech of the speaker, the dull of
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: the clever. These and not these only, are the mental
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: defects of the beloved, defects which, when implanted by nature,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: are necessarily a delight to the lover. And when not implanted,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: he must contrive to implant them in him if he
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: would not be deprived of his fleeting joy. And therefore
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: he cannot help being jealous, and will debar his beloved
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: from the advantages of society which would make a man
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: of him, and especially from that society which would have
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: given him wisdom. And thereby he cannot fail to do
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: him great harm, that is to say, in his excessive
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: fear lest he should come to be despised in his eyes,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: he will be compelled to banish from him divine philosophy.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: And there is no greater injury which he can inflict
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: upon him than this. He will contrive that his beloved
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: shall be wholly ignorant, and in everything shall look to him.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: He is to be the delight of the lover's heart
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: and a curse to himself. Verily, a lover is a
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: profitable guardian and associate for him in all that relates
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: to his mind. Let us next see how his master,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: whose law of life is pleasure and not good, will
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: keep and train the body of his servant. Will he
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: not choose a beloved who is delicate rather than sturdy
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: and strong, one brought up in shady bowers, and not
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: in the bright sun, a stranger to manly exercise it,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: and the sweat of toil, accustomed only to a soft
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: and luxurious diet, instead of the hues of health, having
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: the colors of paint and ornament, and the rest of
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: a peace. Such a life as any one can imagine,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: and which I need not detail at length, but I
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: may sum up all that I have to say in
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: a word and pass on. Such a person in war
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: or in any of the great crises of life, will
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: be the anxiety of his friends and also of his lover,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: and certainly not the terror of his enemies, which nobody
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: can deny. And now let us tell what advantage or
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: disadvantage the beloved will receive from the guardianship and society
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: of his lover in the matter of his property. This
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: is the next point to be considered. The lover will
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: be the first to see what, indeed will be sufficiently
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: evident to all men, that he desires, above all things
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: to deprive his beloved of his dearest and best and
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: holiest possessions, father, mother, kindred friends, of all whom he
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: thinks may be hinderers or reprovers of their most sweet converse.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: He will even cast a jealous eye upon his gold
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: and silver or other property, because these make him a
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: less easy prey, and when caught less manageable. Hence he
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: is of necessity displeased at his possession of them, and
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: rejoices at their loss. And he would like him to
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: be wifeless, childless, homeless as well. And the longer the better.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: For the longer he is all this, the longer he
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: will enjoy him. There are some sort of animals, such
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: as flatterers, who are dangerous and mischievous enough, and yet
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: nature has mingled a temporary pleasure and grace in their composition.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: You may say that a courtisan is hurtful and disapprove
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: of such creatures and their practice, and yet for the
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: time they are very pleasant But the lover is not
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: only hurtful to his love, he is also an extremely
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: disagreeable companion. The old proverb says that birds of a
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: feather flock together. I suppose that equality of years inclines
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: them to the same pleasures, and similarity begets friendship. Yet
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: you may have more than enough even of this, and
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: verily constraint is always said to be grievous. Now the
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: lover is not only unlike his beloved, but he forces
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: himself upon him, for he is old and his love
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: is young, And neither dan nor night will he leave
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: him if he can help. Necessity and the sting of
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: desire drive him on and allure him with the pleasure
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: which he receives from seeing, hearing, touching, perceiving him in
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: every way. And therefore he is delighted to fasten upon
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: him and to minister to him. But what pleasure or
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: consolation can the beloved be receiving all this time? Must
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: he not feel the extremity of disgust when he looks
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: at an old, shriveled face, and the remainder to match,
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: which even in a description is disagreeable and quite detestable.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: When he is forced into daily contact with his lover. Moreover,
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: he is jealously watch'd and guarded against everything and everybody,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: and has to hear misplaced and exaggerated praises of himself
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: and sensuous equally inappropriate, which are intolerable when the man
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: is sober, and besides being intolerable, are published all over
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: the world in their indelicacy and wearisomeness. When he is drunk,
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: and not only while his love continues is he mischievous
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: and unpleasant. But when his love ceases, he becomes a
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: perfidious enemy of him on whom he showered his oaths
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: and prayers and promises, and yet could hardly prevail upon
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: him to tolerate the tedium of his company, even from
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: motives of interest. The hour of payment arrives, and now
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: now he is the servant of another master. Instead of
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: love and infatuation, wisdom and temperance are his bosom's lords.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: But the beloved has not discover'd the change which has
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: taken place in him. When he asks for a return
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: and recalls to his recollection former sayings and doings, he
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: believes himself to be speaking to the same person and
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: the other, not having the courage to confess the truth, and,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: not knowing how to fulfill the oaths and promises which
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: were made when under the dominion of folly, and having
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: now grown wise and temperate, does not want to do
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: as he did or to be as he was before,
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: and so he runs away and is constrained to be
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: a defaulter. The oyster shell in allusion to a game
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: in which two parties fled or pursued, according as an
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: oyster shell which was thrown into the air fell with
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: the dark or light side uppermost translator's footnote has fallen
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: with the other side uppermost. He changes pursuit into flight,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: while the other is compelled to follow him with passion
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: and imprecation, not knowing that he ought never from the
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: first to have accepted a demented lover instead of a
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: sensible non lover, and that in making such a choice
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: he was giving himself up to a faithless, morose, envious, disagreeable,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: being hurtful to his estate, hurtful to his bodily health,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: and still more hurtful to the cultivation of his mind,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: than which there neither is, nor ever will be anything
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: more honored in the eyes both of gods and men.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Consider this fair youth, and know that in the friendship
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: of the lover there is no real kindness. He has
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: an appetite and wants to feed upon you. As wolves
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: love lambs, so lovers love their loves. But I told
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: you so, I am speaking in verse, and therefore I
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: had better make an end enough. I thought that you
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: are only half way, and we're going to make a
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: similar speech about all the advantages of accepting the non lover.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Why do you not proceed? Does not your simplicity observe
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: that I have got out of diddyrambics into heroics. We're
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: only uttering a censure on the lover. And if I
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: am to add the praises of the non lover, what
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: will become of me? Do you not perceive that I
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: am already overtaken by the nymphs to whom you have
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: mischievously exposed me. And therefore I will only add that
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: the non lover has all the advantages in which the
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: lover is accused of being deficient. And now I will
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: say no more. There's enough of both of them. Leaving
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: the tale to its fate. I will cross the river
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: and make the best of my way home, lest the
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: worst thing be inflicted upon me by you. Not yet Socrates,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: not until the heat of the day has passed. Do
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: you not see that the hour is almost noon, There
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: is the midday sun standing still, as people say in
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: the meridian. Let us rather stay and talk over what
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: has been said, and then return in the cool end
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: of section four, Section five. Your love of discourse fightrous
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: is souper, per human, simply marvelous. And I do not
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: believe that there is any one of your contemporaries who
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: has either made or in one way or another, has
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: compelled others to make an equal number of speeches. I
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: would except Simias the theban but all the rest are
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: far behind you. And now I do verily believe that
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: you have been the cause of another. That is good news.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: But what do you mean? I mean to say that,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: as I was about to cross the stream, the usual
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: sign was given to me, that sign which always forbids
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: but never pits me to do anything which I am
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: going to do. And I thought that I heard a
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: voice saying in my ear that I had been guilty
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: of impiety, and that I must not go away until
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: I had made an atonement. Now I am a diviner,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: though not a very good one. But I have enough
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: religion for my own use. As you might say of
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: a bad writer, his writing is good enough for him.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: And I am beginning to see that I was in error. Oh,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: my friend, how prophetic is the human soul. At the
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: time I had a sort of misgiving, and like Ibiqus,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: I was troubled. I feared that I might be buying
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: honor from men at the price of sinning against the gods. Oh,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: now I recognize my error. What error? Oh? That was
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: a dreadful speech which you brought with you, and you
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: made me utter one as bad. How so it was foolish,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: I say, to a certain extent impious. Can anything be
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: more dreadful? Nothing? If the speech was really such as
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: you describe, well, and is not Eros, the son of
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Aphrodite and a god, so men say, But that was
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: not acknowledged by Lucias in his speech, nor by you
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: in that other speech which you buy A charm drew
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: from my lips. For if love be as he surely
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: is a divinity, he cannot be evil. Yet this was
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: the error of both the speeches. There was also a
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: simplicity about them which was refreshing, Having no truth or
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: honesty in them. Nevertheless, they pretended to be something, hoping
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: to succeed in deceiving the Mannikins of Earth, and gained
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: celebrity among them. Wherefore I must have a purgation, and
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: I bethink me of an ancient purgation of mythological error,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: which was devised not by Homer, for he never had
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: the wit to discover why he was blind, but by Stssicorus,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: who was a philosopher and knew the reason why. And
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: therefore when he lost his eyes, for that was the
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: penalty which was inflicted upon him for reviling the lovely Helen,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: he at once urg'd himself. And the purgation was a
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: recantation which began thus fal seies that word of mine.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: The truth is that thou didst not embark in ships,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: nor ever go to the walls of Troy. And when
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: he had completed his poem, which is called the recantation,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: immediately his sight return'd to him. Now I will be
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: wiser than either Stecchordus or Homer, in that I am
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: going to make my recantation for reviling love before I suffer.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: And this I will attempt, not as before veil'd and ashamed,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: but with forehead bold and bear nothing could be more
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: agreeable to me than to hear you say so. Only think,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: my good fidrous, what an utter want of delicacy was
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: shown in the two discourses, I mean, in my own
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: and in that which you recited out of the book.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Would not any one who was himself of a noble
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: and gentle nature, and who loved, or ever had lov'd
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: a nature like his own? When we tell of the
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: petty causes of lovers jealousies, and of their exceeding animosities,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: and of the injuries which they do to their beloved,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: have imagin'd that our ideas of love were taken from
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: some haunt of sailors, to which good manners were unknown.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: He would certainly never have admitted the justice of our censure.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: I dare say not, Socrates. Therefore, because I blush at
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: the thought of this person, and also because I am
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: afraid of love himself, I desire to wash the brine
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: out of my ears with water from the spring. And
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: I would counsel Lucius not to delay, but to write
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: another discourse which shall prove that cateris paribus the lover
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: ought to be accepted, rather than the non lover be
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: assured that he shall. You shall speak the praises of
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: the lover, and Lucius shall be compelled by me to
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: write another discourse on the same theme. You will be
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: true to your nature in that, And therefore I believe
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: you speak and fear not. Ah. But where is a
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: fair youth whom I was addressing before, and who ought
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: to listen now, lest if he hear me not he
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: should accept a non lover before he knows what he
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: is doing. Ha ha. He is close at hand and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: always at your service. Knew, then, fair youth, that the
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: former discourse was the word of Phydrus, the son of
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: vain Man, who dwells in the city of Mirhina Mirchinosius.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: And this which I am about to utter is the
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: recantation of Stesichorus, the son of godly man O Femos,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: who comes from the town of desire Chimera, and is
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: to the following effect. I told a lie when I
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: said that the beloved ought to accept the non lover
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: when he might have the lover, because the one is
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: sane and the other mad. It might be so if
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: madness were simply an evil. But there is also a madness,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: which is a divine gift and the source of the
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: chiefest blessings granted to man. For prophecy is a madness,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: and the prophetess at Delphi and the priestesses at Dodona,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: when out of their senses, have conferred great benefits on Hellas,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: both in public and private life, but when in their
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: senses few or none. And I might also tell you
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: how the sibyl and other inspired persons have given to
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: many an one many an intimation of the future, which
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: has saved them from falling. But it would be tedious
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: to speak of what everyone knows. There will be more
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: reason in appealing to the ancient inventors of names, who
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: would never have connected prophecy mantique, which foretells the future
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: and is the noblest of arts, with madness manique, or
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: called them both by the same name if they had
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: deemed madness to be a disgrace or dishonor they must
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: have thought that there was an inspired madness which was
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: a noble thing. For the two words manti que and
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: manique are really the same, and the letter tao is
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: only a modern and tasteless insertion. And this is confirmed
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: by the name which was given by them to the
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: rational investigation of futunety, whether made by the help of
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: birds or of other signs. This for as much as
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: it is an art which supplies from the reasoning faculty, mind, nose,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: and information historia to human thought. O. Yesis they originally
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: termed or your noistic, But the word has been lately
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: altered and made sonorous by the modern introduction of the
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: letter omega or your noistic and our nistic. And in proportion,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: as prophecy mantique, is more perfect and august than Augury,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: both in name and fact. In the same proportion as
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: the ancients testify, is madness superior to a sane mind suffrosine,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: for the one is only of human but the other
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: of divine origin. Again, where plagues and mightiest woes have
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: bred in certain families owing to some ancient blood guiltiness,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: their madness has enter'd with holy prayers and rites, and
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: by inspired utterances found a way of deliverance for those
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: who are in need. And he who has part in
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: this gift, and is truly possess'd and duly out of
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: his mind, is, by the use of purifications and mysteries,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: made whole and exempt from evil future as well as present,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: and has a release from the calamity which was afflicting him.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: The third kind is the madness of those who are
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: possessed by the muses, which, taking hold of a delicate
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: and virgin soul and their inspiring frenzy, awakens lyrical and
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: all other numbers, with these adorning the myriad actions of
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: ancient heroes for the instruction of posterity. But he who,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: having no touch of the muses madness in his soul,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: comes to the door and thinks that he will get
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: into the temple by the help of art. He I say,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: and his poetry are not admitted. The sane man disappears
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: and is nowhere when he enters into rivalry with the
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: madman end of section five seeks. Now I might tell
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: of many other noble deeds which have sprung from inspired madness.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: And therefore let no one frighten or flutter us by
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: saying that the temperate friend is to be chosen rather
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: than the inspired. But let him further show that love
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: is not sent by the gods for any good to
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: lover or beloved. If he can do so, we will
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: allow him to carry off the palm, and we on
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: our part, will prove in answer to him that the
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: madness of love is the greatest of Heaven's blessings. And
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: the proof shall be one which the wise will receive
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: and the witling disbelieve. But of all, let us view
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: the affections and actions of the soul, divine and human,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: and try to ascertain the truth about them. The beginning
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: of our proof is as follows. The soul through all
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: her being, is immortal. For that which is ever in
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: motion is immortal. But that which moves another and is
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: moved by another, in ceasing to move, ceases also to live.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: Only the self moving, never leaving self, never ceases to move,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: and is the fountain and beginning of motion to all
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: that moves. Besides, now, the beginning is unbegotten, for that
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: which is begotten has a beginning. But the beginning is
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: begotten of nothing. For if it were begotten of something,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: then the begotten would not come from a beginning. But
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: if unbegotten, it must also be indestructible, for if beginning
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: were destroyed, there could be no beginning out of anything,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: nor anything out of a beginning. And all things must
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: have a beginning. And therefore the self moving is the
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: beginning of motion, and this can neither be destroyed nor begotten.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: Else the whole heavens and all creation would collapse and
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: stand still, and never again have motion or birth. But
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: if the self moving is proved to be immortal, he
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: who affirms that so motion is the very idea and
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: essence of the soul will not be put to confusion.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: For the body which is moved from without is soul less,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: but that which is moved from within has a soul.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: For such is the nature of the soul. But if
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: this be true, must not the soul be the self moving,
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: and therefore of necessity, unbegotten and immortal. Enough of the
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: soul's immortality, of the nature of the soul, though her
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: true form be ever a theme of large and more
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: than mortal discourse. Let me speak briefly, and in a figure,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: and let the figure be composite a pair of winged
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: horses and a chariot. Now, the winged horses and the
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: charioteers of the gods are all of them noble and
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: of noble descent, but those of other races are mixed.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: The human charioteer drives his in a pair, and one
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: of them is noble and of noble breed, and the
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: other is ignoble and of ignoble breed, And the driving
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: of them of necessity gives a great deal of trouble
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: to him. I will endeavor to explain to you in
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: what way the mortal differs from the immortal creature. The soul,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: in her totality, has the care of inanimate being everywhere,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: and traverses the whole heaven in diverse forms, appearing when
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: perfect and fully winged, she soars upward and orders the
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: whole world, whereas the imperfect soul, losing her wings and
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: drooping in her flight, at last settles on the solid ground. There,
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: finding a home. She receives an earthly frame which appears
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: to be self moved, but is really moved by her power.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: And this composition of soul and body is called a
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: living and mortal creature. For immortal, no such union can
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: be reasonably believed to be. Although fancy, not having seen
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: nor surely known the nature of God, may imagine an
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: immortal creature having both a body and also a soul,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: which united throughout all time. Let that, however, be as
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: God wills, and be spoken of acceptably to him. And
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: now let us ask the reason why the soul loses
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: her wings. The wing is the corporeal element which is
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: most akin to the divine, and which by nature tends
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: to soar aloft and carry that which gravitates downwards into
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: the upper region, which is the habitation of the gods.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: The divine is beauty, wisdom, goodness, and the like, And
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: by these the wing of the soul is nourish'd and
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: grows apace. But when fed upon evil and foulness and
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: the opposite of good, waste and falls away. Zeus, the
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: mighty Lord, holding the reins of a winged chariot, leads
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: the way in heav'n, ordering all and taking care of all.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: And there follows him the array of gods and demi
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: gods marshal'd in eleven bands. Hestia alone abides at home
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: in the house of Heaven of the rest. They who
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: are reckon'd among the princely twelve march in their appointed order.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: They see many blessed sights in the inner heaven, and
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: there are many ways to and fro along which the
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: blessed gods are passing. Every one doing his own work,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: he may follow who will and can for jealousy has
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: no place in the celestial choir. But when they go
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: to banquet and festival, then they move up the steep
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: to the top of the vault of Heav'n. The chariots
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: of the gods, in even poise, obeying the rain, glide rapidly,
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: but the others labor for the vicious steed goes heavily,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: weighing down the charioteer to the earth when his steed
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: has not been thoroughly train'd. And this is the hour
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: of agony and extremest conflict for the soul. For the immortals,
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: when they are at the end of their course, go
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: forth and stand upon the outside of Heav'n, and the
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: revolution of the spheres carries them round, and they behold
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: the things beyond, but of the heaven, which is a
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: the heavens. What earthly poet ever did, or ever will
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: sing worthily, it is such as I will describe, for
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: I must dare to speak the truth when truth is
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: my theme. There abides the very being with which true
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: knowledge is concerned, the colorless, formless, intangible essence visible only
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: to mind, the pilot of the soul, the divine intelligence
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: being nurtured upon mind and pure knowledge, and the intelligence
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: of every soul which is capable of receiving the food
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: proper to it. Rejoices at beholding reality, and once more
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: gazing upon truth, is plenished and made glad, until the
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: revolution of the worldsprings her round again to the same place.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: In the revolution she beholds justice and temperance, and knowledge absolute,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: not in the form of generation or of relation, which
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: men call existence, but knowledge absolute in existence absolute, and
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: beholding the other true existences in like manner, and feasting
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: upon them, she passes down into the interior of the
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: heavens and returns home. And there the charioteer, putting up
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: his horses at the stall, gives them ambrosia to eat
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: and nectar to drink. Such is the life of the gods,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: but of other souls. That which follows God best and
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: is likest to him lifts the head of the charioteer
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: into the outer world, and is carried round in the revolution,
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: troubl'd indeed by the steeds, and with difficulty beholding true being,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: while another only rises and falls and sees, and again
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: fails to see by reason of the unruliness of the steeds.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: The rest of the souls are also longing after the
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: upper world, and they all follow, but not being strong enough,
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: they are carried round below the surface, plunging, treading on
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: one another, each striving to be first. And there is
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: confusion and perspiration and the extremity of effort, and many
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: of them are lamed or have their wings broken through
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: the ill driving of the charioteers, and all of them,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: after a fruitless toil, not having attained to the mysteries
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: of true being, go away and feed upon opinion. The
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: reason why the souls exhibit this exceeding eagerness to behold
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: the plane of truth is that pasteurage is found there,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: which is suited to the highest part of the soul,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: and the wing on which the soul soars is nourished
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: with this. And there is a law of destiny that
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: the soul which attains any vision of truth income with
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: a God, is preserved from harm until the next period,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: and if attaining always, is always unharmed. But when she
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: is unable to follow, and fails to behold the truth,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: and through some ill hap sinks beneath the double load
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: of forgetfulness and vice, and her wings fall from her,
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: and she drops to the ground. Then the law ordains
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: that this soul shall, at her first birth pass not
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: into any other animal, but only into man. And the
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: soul which has seen most of truth shall come to
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: the birth as a philosopher or artist, or some musical
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: and loving nature. That which has seen truth in the
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: second degree shall be some righteous king or warrior chief.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: The soul which is of the third class shall be
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: a politician, or economist or trader. The fourth shall be
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: a lover of gymnastic toils or a physician. The fifth
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: shall lead the life of a prophet or hierophant. To
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: the sixth the character of poet or some other imitative
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: artist will be assign'd, to the seventh the life of
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: an artisan or husbandman, to the eighth that of a
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: sophist or demagogue, to the ninth that of a tyrant.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: All these are states of probation, in which he who
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: does righteously improves, and he who does unripe righteously deteriorates
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: his lot. Ten thousand years must elapse before the soul
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: of each one can return to the place from whence
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: she came, for she cannot grow her wings in less.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: Only the soul of a philosopher guileless and true, or
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: the soul of a lover who is not devoid of philosophy,
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: may acquire wings in the third of the recurring periods
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: of a thousand years. He is distinguished from the ordinary
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: good man, who gains wings in three thousand years. And
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: they who choose this life three times in succession have
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: wings given them and go away at the end of
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: three thousand years. But the others. The philosopher alone is
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: not subject to judgment creasis, for he has never lost
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: the vision of truth. Receive judgment when they have completed
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: their first life, and after the judgment they go, some
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: of them to the houses of correction, which are under
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: the earth, and are punish'd, others to some place in heaven,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: whither they are likely borne by justice, and there they
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: live in a manner worthy of the life which they
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: lead here. When in the form of men, and at
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: the end of the first thousand years, the good souls
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: and also the evil souls both come to draw lots
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: and choose their second life, and they may take any
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: which they please. The soul of a man may pass
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: into the life of a beast, or from the beast
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: return again into the man. But the soul which has
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: never seen the truth will not pass into the human form.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: For a man must have intelligence of universals and be
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: able to proceed from the many particulars of sense to
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: one conception of reason. This is the recollection of those
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: things which our soul once saw while following God, when
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: regardless of that which we now call being, she raised
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: her head up towards the true being. And therefore the
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: mind of the philosopher alone has wings. And this is just,
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: for he is always, according to the measure of his abilities,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: clinging in recollection to those things in which God abides,
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: and in beholding which he is what he is. And
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: he who employs a aright these memories is ever being
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: initiated into perfect mysteries, and alone becomes truly perfect. But
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: as he forgets earthly interests and is wrapped in the divine,
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: the vulgar deem him mad and rebuke him. They do
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: not see that he is inspired. End of Section six,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: Section seven. Thus far I have been speaking of the
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: fourth and love last kind of madness, which is imputed
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: to him who, when he sees the beauty of earth,
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: is transported with the recollection of the true beauty. He
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: would like to fly away, but he cannot. He is
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: like a bird, fluttering and looking upward, and careless of
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: the world below. And he is therefore thought to be mad.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: And I have shown this of all inspirations to be
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: the noblest and highest, and the offspring of the highest,
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: to him who has or shares in it. And that
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: he who loves the beautiful is called a lover, because
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: he partakes of it. For as has been already said,
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: every soul of man has, in the way of nature
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: beheld true being. This was the condition of her passing
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: into the form of man. But all souls do not
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: easily recall the things of the other world. They may
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: have seen them for a short time only, or they
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: may have been unfortunate in their earthly lot, and having
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: had their hearts turned to unrighteousness through some corrupting influence,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: they may have lost the memory of the holy things
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: which once they saw. Few only retain an adequate remembrance
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: of them. And they, when they behold here any image
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: of that other world, are rapt in amazement. But they
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: are ignorant of what this rapture means, because they do
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: not clearly perceive. For there is no light of justice,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: or temperance, or any of the higher ideas which are
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: precious to souls. In the earthly copies of them, they
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: are seen through a glass dimly, and there are few who,
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: going to the images behold in them the realities, and
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: these only with difficulty. There was a time when, with
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: the rest of the happy band, they saw beauty shining
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: in brightness, we philosophers, following in the train of Zeus others,
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: in company with other gods. And then we beheld the
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: beatific vision, and where initiated into a mystery which may
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: be truly called most bless it celebrated by us in
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: our state of innocence, before we had any experience of
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: evils to come, when we were admitted to the sight
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: of apparitions, innocent and simple and calm and happy, which
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: we beheld shining in pure light, pure ourselves, and not
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: yet enshrined in that living tomb which we carry about.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: Now that we are imprisoned in the body like an
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: oyster in his shell, let me linger over the memory
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: of scenes which have passed away. Ah, But of Beauty,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: I repeat again that we saw her there, shining in
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: company with the celestial forms, and coming to earth. We
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: find her here too, shining in clearness through the clearest
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: aperture of sense. For sight is the most piercing of
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: our bodily senses, though not by that is wisdom seen.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: Her loveliness would have been transporting if there had been
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: a visible image of her, and the other ideas, if
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: they had visible counterparts, would be equally lovely. But this
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: is the privilege of beauty, that being the loveliest, she
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: is also the most palpable to sight. Now, he who
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: is not newly initiated, or who has become corrupted, does
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: not easily rise out of this world to the sight
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: of true beauty in the other. He looks only at
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: her earthly namesake, and instead of being awed at the
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: sight of her, he is given over to pleasure, and
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: like a brutish beast, he rushes on to enjoy and beget.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: He consorts with wantonness, and is not afraid or ashamed
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: of pursuing pleasure in violation of nature. But he whose
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: initiation is recent, and who has been the spectator of
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: many glories in the other world, is amazed when he
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: sees anyone having a godlike face or form, which is
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: the expression of divine beauty, And at first a shudder
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: runs through him, and again the old owe steals over him. Then,
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: looking upon the face of his beloved as of a god,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: he reverences him, And if he were not afraid of
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: being thought a downright madman, he would sacrifice to his
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: beloved as to the image of a god. Then while
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: he gazes on him, there is a sort of reaction,
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: and the shudder passes into an unusual heat and perspiration.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: For as he receives the effluence of beauty through the eyes,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: the wing moistens and he warms. And as he warms,
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: the parts out of which the wing grew, and which
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: had been hitherto closed and rigid, and had prevented the
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: wing from shooting forth un melted, And as nourishment streams
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: upon him, the lower end of the wing begins to
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: swell and grow from the root upputs, and the growth
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: extends under the whole soul. For once the whole was winged.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: During this process, the whole soul is all in a
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: state of ebullition and effervescence, which may be compared to
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: the irritation and uneasiness in the gums at the time
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: of cutting teeth. Bubbles up and has a feeling of
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: uneasiness and tickling. But when in like mins manner the
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: soul is beginning to grow wings, the beauty of the
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: beloved meets her eye, and she receives the sensible, warm
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: motion of particles which flow towards her, therefore called emotion chimeros,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: and is refreshed and warmed by them. And then she
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: ceases from her pain with joy. But when she is
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: parted from her beloved and her moisture fails, then the
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: orifices of the passage out of which the wing shoots,
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: dry up and close and intercept the germ of the wing, which,
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: being shut up, with the emotion throbbing, as with the
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: pulsations of an artery, pricks the aperture which is nearest,
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: until at length the entire soul is pierced and maddened
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: and pained, and at the recollection of beauty, is again delighted.
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: And from both of them together the soul is oppress'd
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: at the strangeness of her condition, and is in a
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: great strait and excitement, and in her madness can neither
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: sleep by night, nor abide in her place by day,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: And wherever she thinks that she will behold the beautiful one.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: Thither in her desire she runs, And when she has
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: seen him and bathed herself in the waters of beauty,
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: her constraint is loosened, and she is refreshed and has
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: no more pangs and pains. And this is the sweetest
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: of all pleasures at the time, and is the reason
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: why the soul of the lover will never forsake his
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: beautiful one, whom he esteems above all. He has forgotten mother,
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: and brethren and companions, and he thinks nothing of the
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: neglect and loss of his property. The rules and proprieties
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: of life on which he formerly prided himself. He now despises,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: and is ready to sleep like a servant wherever he
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: is allowed, as near as he can to his desired
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: one who is the object of his worship, and the
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: physician who can alone assuage the greatness of his pain. Oh,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: and this state, my dear imaginary youth, to whom I
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: am talking, is by men called love, and among the
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: gods has a name at which you, in your simplicity,
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: may be inclined to mark. There are two lines in
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: the apocryphal writings of Homer in which the name occurs.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: One of them is rather outrageous and not altogether metrical.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: They are as follows. Mortals call him fluttering Love, but
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: the immortals call him winged one, because the growing of wings,
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: or reading pterothoiton the movement of wings is a necessity
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: to him. You may believe this, but not unless you
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: like at any rate. The loves of lovers and their
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: causes are such as I have describ'd now. The lover
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: who is taken to be the attendant of Zeus is
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: better able to bear the winged God, and can endure
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: a heavier burden. But the attendants and companions of aries,
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: when under the influence of love, if they fancy that
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: they have been at all wronged, are ready to kill
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: and put an end to themselves and their belove. It.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: And he who follows in the train of any other God,
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: while he is unspoiled and the impression lasts, honors and
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: imitates him as far as he is able, and after
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: the manner of his God, he behaves in his intercourse
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: with his beloved and with the rest of the world.
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: During the first period of his earthly existence. Everyone chooses
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: his love from the ranks of beauty according to his character,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: and this he makes his god and fashions and adorns
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: as a sort of image which he is to fall
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: down and worship. The followers of Zeus desire that their
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: beloved should have a soul like him, and therefore they
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: seek out someone of a philosophical and imperial nature. And
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: when they have found him and loved him, they do
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: all they can to confirm such a nature in him.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: And if they have no experience of such a disposition,
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: here the too they learn of anyone who can teach them,
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: and themselves follow in the same way. And they have
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: the less difficulty in finding the nature of their own
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: God in themselves. Because they have been compelled to gaze
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: intensely on him, their recollection clings to him, and they
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: become possessed of him and receive from him their character
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: and disposition. So far as man can participate in God.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: The qualities of their God they attribute to the beloved,
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: wherefore they love him all the more. And if, like
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: the backic nymphs, they draw inspiration from Zeus, they pour
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: out their own fountain upon him, wanting to make him
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: as like as possible to their own God. But those
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: who are the followers of Hero seek a royal love,
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: and when they have found him, they do just the
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: same with him. And in like manner, the followers of
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: Apollo and of every other God, walking in the ways
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: of their God, seek a love who is to be
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: made like him whom they serve, And when they have
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: found him, they themselves imitate their God and persuade their
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: love to do the same, and educate him into the
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: manner and nature of the God, as far as they
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: each can. For no feelings of envy or jealousy are
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: entertain'd by them towards their beloved, but they do their
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: utmost to create in him the greatest likeness of themselves
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: and of the God whom they honor. Thus, fair and
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: blissful to the beloved is the desire of the inspired lover,
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: and the initiation of which I speak into the mysteries
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: of true love. If he be captured by the lover,
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: and their purpose is effected. Now the beloved is taken
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: captive in the following manner. As I said at the
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: beginning of this tale, I divided each soul into three,
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: two horses and a charioteer. And one of the horses
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: was good, and the other bad. The division may remain,
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: but I have not yet explained in what the goodness
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: or badness of either consists, and to that I will
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: now proceed. The right hand horse is upright and cleanly made.
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: He has a lofty neck and an aquiline nose. His
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: color is white and his eyes dark. He is a
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: lover of honor and modesty and temperance, and the follower
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: of true glory. He needs no touch of the whip,
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 1: but is guided by word and admonition only. The other
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: is a crooked, lumbering animal put together anyhow. He has
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: a short, thick neck. He is flat faced and of
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: a dark color, with gray eyes and blood red complexion.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: The mate of insolence and pride, shagg eared and deaf,
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: hardly yielding to whip and spur. Now, when the charioteer
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: beholds the vision of love, and has his whole soul
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: warmed through sense, and is full of the prickings and
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: ticklings of desire, the obedient steed, then, as always under
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: the government of shame, refrains from leaping on the beloved.
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: But the other, heedless of the pricks and of the
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: blows of the whip, plunges and runs away, giving all
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: manner of trouble to his companion and the charioteer, whom
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: he forces to approach the beloved and to remember the
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: joys of love. They yet first indignantly oppose him, and
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: will not be urged on to do terrible and unlawful deeds.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: But at last, when he perceives wrists in plaguing them,
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: they yield and agree to do as he bids them.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: And now they are at the spot and behold the
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: flashing beauty of the beloved, which, when the charioteer sees,
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: his memory is carried to the true beauty, whom he
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: beholds in company with modesty, like an image placed upon
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: a holy pedestal. He sees her, but is afraid, and
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: falls backwards in adoration, and by his fall is compell'd
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: to pull back the reins with such violence as to
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: bring both the steeds on their haunches, the one willing
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: and unresisting, the unruly one very unwilling. And when they
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: have gone back a little, the one is overcome with
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: shame and wonder, and his whole soul is bathed in perspiration.
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: The other, when the pain is over, which the bridle
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: and the fall had given him, having with difficulty taken breath,
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: is full of wrath and reproaches, which he heaps upon
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: the charioteer and his fellow steed for want of courage
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: and manhood, declaring that they have been false to their
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: agreement and guilty of desertion. Again they refuse, and again
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: he urges them on and will scarce yield to their
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 1: prayer that he would wait until another time. When the
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: appointed hour comes, they make as if they had forgotten,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: and he reminds them, biting and neighing and dragging them on,
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: until at length he, on the same thoughts intent, forces
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: them to draw near again, And when they are near,
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: he stoops his head and puts up his tail, and
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: takes the bit in his teeth and pulls shamelessly. Then
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: the charioteer is worse off than ever. He falls back
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: like a racer at the barrier, and with a still
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: more violent wrench, drags the bit out of the teeth
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: of the wild steed and covers his abusive tongue and
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: jaws with blood, and forces his legs and haunches to
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: the ground, and punishes him sorely. And when this has happened,
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: several times, and the villain has ceased from his wanton way.
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: He is tamed and humbled and follows the will of
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: the charioteer, And when he sees the beautiful one, he
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: is ready to die of fear. And from that time forward,
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: the soul of the lover follows the beloved in modesty
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: and holy fear. End of section seven, Section eight. And
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: so the beloved, who like a god, has received every
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: true and loyal service from his lover, not in pretense
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: but in reality, being also himself of a nature friendly
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: to his admirer. If in former days he has blushed
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: to own his passion and turned away from his lover
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: because his youthful companions or others slanderously told him that
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: he would be disgraced. Now, as years advance, at the
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: appointed age and time is led to receive him into communion,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: for fate, which has ordained that there shall be no
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: friendship among the evil, has also ordained that there shall
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: ever be friendship among the good and the beloved. When
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 1: he has received him into communion and intimacy, is quite
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: amazed at the good will of the lover. He recognizes
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: that the inspired friend is worth all other friends. Or kinsmen,
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: they have nothing of friendship in them worthy to be
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: compared with his. And when this feeling continues, and he
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: is nearer to him and embraces him in gymnastic exercises
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: and at other times of meeting, then the fountain of
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 1: that stream which Zeus when he was in love with
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: Ganymede named desire, overflows upon the lover, and some enters
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: into his soul, and some, when he is filled, flows
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: out again. And as a breeze or an echo, rebounds
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 1: from the smooth rocks and returns whence it came. So
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: does the stream of beauty, passing through the eyes, which
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: are the windows of the soul, come back to the
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: beautiful one, there, arriving and quickening the passages of the wings,
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: watering them and inclining them to grow, and filling the
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: soul of the beloved also with love. And thus he loves.
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: But he knows not what he does not understand, and
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: cannot explain his own state. He appears to have caught
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: the infection of blindness from another. The lover is his
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: mirror in whom he is beholding himself, but he is
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: not aware of this. When he is with the lover,
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: both cease from their pain. But when he is away,
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 1: then he longs as he is longed for, and has
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: love's image, love for love, and terrous lodging in his breast,
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: which he calls and believes to be not love but
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: friendship only. And his desire is as the desire of
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: the other, but weaker. He wants to see him, touch him,
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 1: kiss him, embrace him, and probably not long afterwards, his
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: desire is accomplished. When they meet, the wanton steed of
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: the lover has a word to say to the charioteer.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 1: He would like to have a little pleasure in return
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: for many pains. But the wanton steed of the beloved
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: says not a word, for he is bursting with passion
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: which he understands not. He throws his arms round the
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 1: lover and embraces him as his dearest friend, And when
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: they are side by side, he is not in a
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: state in which he can refuse the lover anything if
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 1: he ask him, although his fellow steed and the charioteer
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: oppose him with the arguments of shame and reason. After this,
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 1: their happiness depends upon their self control. If the better
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: elements of the mind, which lead to order and philosophy prevail.
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: Then they pass their life here in happiness and harmony,
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: masters of themselves and orderly, enslaving the vicious and emancipating
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: the virtuous elements of the soul. And when the end comes,
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: they are light and winged for flight, having conquered in
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 1: one of the three heavenly or truly Olympian victories. Nor
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: can human discipline or divine inspiration confer any greater blessing
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 1: on man than this. If, on the other hand, they
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: leave philosophy and lead the lower life of ambition, then
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: probably after wine or in some other careless hour, the
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: two wanton animals take the two souls when of their God,
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: and bring them together, and they accomplish that desire of
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: their hearts, which to the many is bliss. And this,
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: having once enjoyed, they continue to enjoy, yet rarely, because
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: they have not the approval of the whole soul. They
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 1: too are dear, but not so dear to one another
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: as the others. Either at the time of their love
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: or afterwards. They consider that they have given and taken
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: from each other the most sacred pledges, and they may
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: not break them and fall into enmity. At last, they
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: pass out of the body, unwinged, but eager to soar,
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: and thus obtain no mean reward of love and madness.
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: For those who have once begun the heavenward pilgrimage may
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: not go down again to darkness and the journey beneath
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: the earth. But they live in light, always happy companions
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: in their pilgrimage, And when the time comes at which
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: they receive their wings, they have the same plumage because
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 1: of their love. Thus great are the heavenly blessings which
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 1: the friendship are the lover will confer upon you, my youth,
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 1: whereas the attachment of the non lover, which is alloyed
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: with a worldly prudence and has worldly and niggardly ways
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: of doling out benefits, will breed in your soul those
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 1: vulgar qualities which the populace applaud will send you bowling
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: round the earth during a period of nine thousand years,
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: and leave you a fool in the world below. And thus,
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: dear Eeros, I have made and paid my recantation as
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: well and as fairly as I could, more, especially in
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: the matter of the poetical figures which I was compelled
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: to use, because fidrous would have them. And now forgive
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: the past and accept the present, and be gracious and
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: merciful to me. And do not, in thine anger deprive
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: me of sight or take from me the art of
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: love which thou hast given me, But grant that I
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: may be yet more esteem'd in the eyes of the fair.
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: And if Phidraus or myself said anything rude in our
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: first speeches, blame Melusias, who is the father of the brat,
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: and let us have no more of his progeny. Bid
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: him study philosophy like his brother Polymarchus, and then his
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: lover Phidrus, will no longer halt between two opinions, but
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: will dedicate himself wholly to love and to philosophical discourses.
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 1: I join in the prayer, Socrates, and say with you,
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: if this be for my good, may your words come
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 1: to pass. But why did you make your second oration
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: so much finer than the first? I wonder why? And
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 1: I begin to be afraid that I shall lose conceit
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 1: of luciass and that he will appear tame in comparison,
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: even if he be willing to put another as fine
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: and as long as yours into the field which I doubt,
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: for quite lately one of your politicians was abusing him
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: on this very account, and called him a speech writer
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 1: again and again, so that a feeling of pride may
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: probably induce him to give up writing speeches. What a
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: very amusing notion. But I think, my young man, that
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 1: you are much mistaken in your friend, if you imagine
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 1: that he is frightened at a little noise, and possibly
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: you think that his assailant was in earnest. I thought
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: Socrates that he was. And you are aware that the
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: greatest and most influential statesmen are ashamed of writing speeches
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: and leaving them in a written form, lest they should
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: be called sophists by posterity. You seem to be unconscious, Vitress,
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: that the sweet elbow of the proverb is really the
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 1: long arm of the nile. Translator's footnote. A proverb like
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 1: the grapes are sour, applied to pleasures which cannot be had,
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 1: meaning sweet things, which, like the elbow, are out of
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 1: the reach of the mouth. The promised pleasure turns out
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 1: to be a long and tedious affair. And you appear
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 1: to be equally unaware of the fact that this sweet
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: elbow of theirs is also a long arm. For there
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 1: is nothing of which our great politicians are so fond
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 1: as of writing speeches and bequeathing them to posterity. And
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: they add their admirer's names at the top of the
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: writing out of gratitude to them. What do you mean
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 1: I do not understand? Why do you not know that
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 1: when a politician writes, he begins with the names of
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 1: his approvers. How so why he begins in this manner?
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 1: Be it enacted by the Senate, the people, or both
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 1: on the motion of a certain person who is our author?
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: And so, putting on a serious face, he proceeds to
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: display his own wisdom to his admirers in what is
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: often a long and tedious composition. Now, what is that
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: sort of thing but a regular piece of authorship. True,
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: And if the law is finally approv'd, then the author
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: leaves the theater in high delight. But if the law
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: is rejected, and he is done out of his speech
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: making and not thought good enough to write, then he
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: and his party are in mourning. Very true, so far
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: are they from despising or rather, so highly do they
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 1: value the practice of writing? No doubt? And when the
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 1: king or orator has the power, as Lycurgus or Solon
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 1: or Darius had, of attaining an immortality or authorship in
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 1: a state. Is he not thought by posterity when they
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 1: see his compositions? And does he not think himself, while
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: he is yet alive, to be a god? Very true?
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 1: Then do you think that any one of this class,
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 1: however ill disposed, would reproach Lysias with being an author?
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 1: Not upon your view, for according to you, he would
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: be casting a slur on his own favorite pursuit. HM.
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 1: One may see that there is no disgrace in the
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 1: mere fact of writing, certainly not. The disgrace begins when
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: a man writes not well but badly, clearly, and what
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 1: is well and what is badly? Need we ask Lucias
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 1: or any other poet or orator, who ever wrote or
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 1: will write, either a political or any other work in
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: meter or out of meter, poet or prose writer, to
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 1: teach us this need we for what should a man
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: live if not for the pleasures of discourse? Surely not
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 1: for the sake of bodily pleasures, which almost always have
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 1: previous pain as a condition of them, and therefore are
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: rightly called slavey wish there is time enough. And I
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 1: believe that the grasshoppers, chirruping after their manner, in the
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: heat of the sun over our heads, are talking to
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 1: one another and looking down at us. What would they
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 1: say if they saw that, we, like the many, are
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: not conversing, but slumbering at mid day, lull'd by their voices,
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: too indolent to think. Would they not have the right
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 1: to laugh at us? They might imagine that we were
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: slaves who coming to rest at a place of resort
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 1: of theirs, like sheep lie asleep at noon around the well.
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 1: But if they see us discoursing and like Odysseus, sailing
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: past them, deaf to their siren voices, they may, perhaps,
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: out of respect, give us of the gifts which they
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 1: receive from the gods, that they may impart them to men.
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: What gifts do you mean? I never heard of any
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 1: a lover of music like yourself. Ought surely to have
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 1: heard the story of the grasshoppers, who are said to
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 1: have been human beings in an age before the muses,
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: And when the muses came and song appear'd, they were
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 1: ravished with delight and singing, always never thought of eating
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: and drinking, until at last in their forgetfulness, they died,
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: and now they live again in the grasshoppers. And this
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 1: is the return which the muses make to them. They
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: neither hunger nor thirst, but from the hour of their
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 1: birth are always singing, and never eating or drinking. And
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 1: when they die, they go and inform the muses in
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: heaven who honors them. On earth. They win the love
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 1: of Tatsikore for the dancers by their report of them,
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 1: of Erato for the lovers, and of the other muses
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: for those who do them honor according to the several
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: ways of honoring them, of Calliope, the eldest muse, and
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 1: of Urania, who is next to her, or the philosophers,
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 1: of whose music the grasshoppers may report to them. For
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 1: these are the muses who are chiefly concerned with heaven
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: and thought divine as well as human, and they have
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 1: the sweetest utterance. For many reasons. Then we ought always
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: to talk and not to sleep at midday. Let us talk.
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: End of section eight, Section nine h. Shall we discuss
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: the rules of writing and speech as we were proposing,
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 1: ah very good in good speaking. Should not the mind
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 1: of the speaker know the truth of the matter about
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 1: which he is going to speak. And yet, Socrates, I
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: have heard that he who would be an orator has
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with true justice, but only with that
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 1: which is likely to be approved by the many who
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: sit in judgment, nor with the truly good or honorable,
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: but only with opinion about them, And that from opinion
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: comes persuasion, and not from the truth. The words of
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: the wise are not to be set aside, for there
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 1: is probably something in them. And therefore the meaning of
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: this saying is not hastily to be dismissed. Very true,
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 1: let us put the matter thus. Suppose that I persuaded
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: you to buy a horse and go to the wars.
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 1: Neither of us knew what a horse was like, but
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 1: I knew that you believed a horse to be of
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: tame animals, the one which has the longest ears. That
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 1: would be ridiculous. There is something more ridiculous coming. Suppose
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: further that in sober earnest I, having persuaded you of this,
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 1: went and composed a speech in honor of an ass
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: whom I entitled a horse beginning, a noble animal and
• 2:14:20
  Speaker 1: a most useful possession, especially in war. And you may
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 1: get on his back and fight, and he will carry
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 1: baggage or anything, how ridiculous. Ridiculous, yes, but is not
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: even a ridiculous friend better than a cunning enemy. Certainly,
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 1: and when the orator, instead of putting an ass in
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 1: the place of a horse, puts good for evil, being
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: himself as ignorant of their true nature as the city
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 1: on which which he imposes is ignorant, and having studied
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 1: the notions of the multitude, falsely persuades them not about
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: the shadow of an ass, which he confounds with a horse,
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: but about good, which he confounds with evil. What will
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 1: be the harvest which rhetoric will be likely to gather
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 1: after the sowing of that seed the reverse of good?
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 1: But perhaps rhetoric has been getting too roughly handled by us,
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 1: And she might answer, what amazing nonsense you are talking?
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 1: As if I forced any man to learn to speak
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: in ignorance of the truth, whatever my advice may be worth,
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 1: I should have told him to arrive at the truth first,
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: and then come to me. At the same time, I
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 1: boldly assert that mere knowledge of the truth will not
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 1: give you the art of persuasion. There is reason in
• 2:16:12
  Speaker 1: the lady's defense of herself. Quite true, if only the
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 1: other arguments, which remain to be brought up, bear her
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 1: witness that she is an art at all. But I
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 1: seem to hear them arraying themselves on the opposite side,
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 1: declaring that she speaks falsely, and that rhetoric is a
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 1: mere routine and trick, not an art. Lo a spartan
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 1: appears and says that there never is, nor ever will
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 1: be a real art of speaking, which is divorced from
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 1: the truth. And what are these arguments? Socrates? Bring them
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 1: out that we may examine them. Come out, fair children,
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 1: and convince Fidrus, who is the father of similar beauties,
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 1: that he will never be able to speak about anything
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: as he ought to speak unless he have a knowledge
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 1: of philosophy. And let Fidraus answer you put the question.
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 1: Is not rhetoric taken generally a universal art of enchanting
• 2:17:35
  Speaker 1: the mind by arguments, which is practiced not only in
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 1: courts and public assemblies, but in private houses, also having
• 2:17:46
  Speaker 1: to do with all matters great as well as small,
• 2:17:50
  Speaker 1: good and bad alike, and is in all equally right
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 1: and equally to be esteemed. That is what you have
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: heard word Nay, not exactly that I should say, Rather
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: that I have heard the art confined to speaking and
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 1: writing in law suits and to speaking in public assemblies,
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: not extended farther. Then, I suppose that you have only
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 1: heard of the rhetoric of Nestor and Odysseus, which they
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 1: compos'd in their leisure hours when at Troy, and never
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 1: of the rhetoric of pallor Medes, no more than of
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 1: Nestor and Odysseus, unless Gorgias is your Nestor, and Thrascimacus
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 1: or Theodorus your Odysseus. Perhaps that is my meaning. But
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: let us leave them, and do you tell me instead
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 1: what our plaintive and defendant doing in a law court?
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 1: Are they not contending exactly so about the just and
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 1: unjust that is the matter in dispute? Yes, And a
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 1: professor of the art will make the same thing appear
• 2:19:19
  Speaker 1: to the same persons to be at one time just
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 1: at another time, if he is so inclined to be
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 1: unjust exactly, and when he speaks in the assembly, he
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 1: will make the same things seem good to the city
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 1: at one time, and at another time the reverse of good,
• 2:19:43
  Speaker 1: that is true. Have we not heard of the eleatic
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 1: Palamedes Zeno, who has an art of speaking, by which
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: he makes the same things appear to his hearers like
• 2:19:59
  Speaker 1: anne and unlike one and many at rest and in motion.
• 2:20:07
  Speaker 1: Very true. The art of disputation, then, is not confined
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 1: to the course and the assembly, but is one and
• 2:20:17
  Speaker 1: the same in every use of language. This is the art,
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 1: if there be such an art, which is able to
• 2:20:26
  Speaker 1: find a likeness of everything to which a likeness can
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 1: be found, and draws into the light of day the
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 1: likenesses and disguises which are used by others. How do
• 2:20:41
  Speaker 1: you mean, let me put the matter thus, when will
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: there be more chance of deception when the difference is
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 1: large or small? When the difference is small, and you
• 2:20:57
  Speaker 1: will be less likely to be discovered in passing by
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 1: degrees into the other extreme than when you go all
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 1: at once. Of course, he then, who would deceive others
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 1: and not be deceiv'd, must exactly know the real likenesses
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 1: and differences of things. He must. And if he is
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 1: ignorant of the true nature of any subject, how can
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 1: he detect the greater or less degree of likeness in
• 2:21:35
  Speaker 1: other things to that of which, by the hypothesis he
• 2:21:40
  Speaker 1: is ignorant? He cannot? And when men are deceiv'd, and
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 1: then notions are at variance with realities. It is clear
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: that the error slips in through resemblances. Yes, that is
• 2:21:57
  Speaker 1: the way. Then he who would be a master of
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 1: the art must understand the real nature of everything, or
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 1: he will never know either how to make the gradual
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 1: departure from truth into the opposite of truth, which is
• 2:22:17
  Speaker 1: effected by the help of resemblances, or how to avoid it.
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: He will not. He then, who, being ignorant of the truth,
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 1: aims at appearances, will only attain an art of rhetoric
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 1: which is ridiculous, and is not an art at all
• 2:22:39
  Speaker 1: that may be expected. Shall I propose that we look
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 1: for examples of art and want of art according to
• 2:22:50
  Speaker 1: our notion of them, in the speech of Lucias which
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 1: you have in your hand, and in my own speech.
• 2:23:00
  Speaker 1: Nothing could be better. And indeed I think that our
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 1: previous argument has been too abstract and wanting in illustrations. Yes,
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 1: and the two speeches happen to afford a very good
• 2:23:16
  Speaker 1: example of the way in which the speaker who knows
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 1: the truth may, without any serious purpose, steal away the
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 1: hearts of his hearers. This piece of good fortune I
• 2:23:31
  Speaker 1: attribute to the local deities, and perhaps the prophets of
• 2:23:37
  Speaker 1: the muses who are singing over our heads may have
• 2:23:42
  Speaker 1: imparted their inspiration to me. For I do not imagine
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 1: that I have any rhetorical art of my own. Grantee,
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 1: if you will only please to get on end of
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 1: section nine, Section ten, suppose that you read me the
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 1: first words of Lucias's speech. Hm. You know how matters
• 2:24:16
  Speaker 1: stand with me, and how as I conceive they might
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 1: be arranged for our common interest. And I maintain that
• 2:24:26
  Speaker 1: I ought not to fail in my suit because I
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 1: am not your lover. For lovers repent enough. Now shall
• 2:24:38
  Speaker 1: I point out the rhetorical error of those words? Yes,
• 2:24:44
  Speaker 1: everyone is aware that about some things we are agreed,
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 1: whereas about other things we differ. I think that I
• 2:24:54
  Speaker 1: understand you, But will you explain yourself. When any one
• 2:24:59
  Speaker 1: speaks of iron and silver, is not the same thing
• 2:25:04
  Speaker 1: present in the minds of all, certainly, But when anyone
• 2:25:10
  Speaker 1: speaks of justice and goodness, we part company and are
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 1: at odds with one another and with ourselves. Precisely, then
• 2:25:22
  Speaker 1: in some things we agree, but not in others. That
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 1: is true, in which are we more likely to be deceived?
• 2:25:32
  Speaker 1: And in which has rhetoric the greater power. Clearly in
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 1: the uncertain class, then the rhetorician ought to make a
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 1: regular division and acquire a distinct notion of both classes,
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 1: as well of that in which the many err as
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 1: of that in which they do not err. He who
• 2:25:58
  Speaker 1: made such a distinction would have an excellent principle. Yes,
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 1: And in the next place, he must have a keen
• 2:26:08
  Speaker 1: eye for the observation of particulars in speaking, and must
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 1: not make a mistake about the class to which they
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 1: are to be referred. Certainly, Now, to which class does
• 2:26:23
  Speaker 1: love belong? To the debatable or to the undisputed class?
• 2:26:30
  Speaker 1: To the debatable? Clearly? For if not, do you think
• 2:26:34
  Speaker 1: that love would have allowed you to say, as you did,
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 1: that he is an evil both to the lover and
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 1: the beloved, and also the greatest possible good capital But
• 2:26:49
  Speaker 1: will you tell me whether I defined love at the
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: beginning of my speech, For having been in an ecstasy,
• 2:26:59
  Speaker 1: I cannot well remember. Yes, indeed that you did, and
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 1: no mistake. Then I perceive that the nymphs of Achelous
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 1: and Pan, the son of Hermes, who inspired me, were
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 1: far better rhetoricians than Lucias the son of Caphelus Alas,
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 1: how inferior to them he is. But perhaps I am mistaken.
• 2:27:30
  Speaker 1: And Lucias, at the commencement of his lover's speech, did
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 1: insist on our supposing love to be something or other
• 2:27:40
  Speaker 1: which he fancied him to be. And according to this
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 1: model he fashioned and framed the remainder of his discourse.
• 2:27:50
  Speaker 1: Suppose we read his beginning over again, if you please,
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 1: but you will not find what you want read that
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 1: I may have his exact words. You know how matters
• 2:28:07
  Speaker 1: stand with me, and how as I conceive they might
• 2:28:12
  Speaker 1: be arranged for our common interest. And I maintain I
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 1: ought not to fail in my suit, because I am
• 2:28:20
  Speaker 1: not your lover. For lovers repent of the kindnesses which
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 1: they have shown when their love is over. Here he
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 1: appears to have done just the reverse of what he ought,
• 2:28:35
  Speaker 1: for he has begun at the end, and is swimming
• 2:28:39
  Speaker 1: on his back through the flood to the place of starting.
• 2:28:45
  Speaker 1: His address to the fair youth begins where the lover
• 2:28:49
  Speaker 1: would have ended. Am I not right, sweet fibers, Yes, indeed, Socrates,
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 1: he does begin at the end. Then, as to the
• 2:29:02
  Speaker 1: other topics, are they not thrown down? Anyhow? Is there
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 1: any principle in them? Why should the next topic follow
• 2:29:13
  Speaker 1: next in order, or any other topic. I cannot help
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 1: fancying in my ignorance that he wrote off boldly just
• 2:29:24
  Speaker 1: what came into his head. But I dare say that
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: you would recognize a rhetorical necessity in the succession of
• 2:29:34
  Speaker 1: the several parts of the composition. You have too good
• 2:29:40
  Speaker 1: an opinion of me if you think that I have
• 2:29:44
  Speaker 1: any such insight into his principles of composition. At any rate,
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 1: you will allow that every discourse ought to be a
• 2:29:54
  Speaker 1: living creature, having a body of its own and a
• 2:29:58
  Speaker 1: head and feet. There should be a middle, beginning and
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 1: end adapted to one another and to the whole. Certainly
• 2:30:10
  Speaker 1: can this be said of the discourse of Lucias? See
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 1: whether you can find any more connection in his words
• 2:30:20
  Speaker 1: than in the epiaph, which is said by some to
• 2:30:23
  Speaker 1: have been inscrib'd on the grave of Midas the Phrygian.
• 2:30:29
  Speaker 1: What is there remarkable in the epitaph? It is as follows,
• 2:30:35
  Speaker 1: I am a maiden of bronze, and lie on the
• 2:30:39
  Speaker 1: tomb of Midas, so long as water flows and tall
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 1: trees grow, so long here on this spot by his
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 1: sad tomb, abiding, I shall declare to pass us by
• 2:30:55
  Speaker 1: that Midas sleeps below. Now in the rhyme, whether a
• 2:31:01
  Speaker 1: line comes first or comes last, as you will perceive,
• 2:31:06
  Speaker 1: makes no difference. You are making fun of that oration
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 1: of ours. Well, I will say no more about your
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 1: friend's speech, lest I should give of friends to you,
• 2:31:22
  Speaker 1: although I think that it might furnish many other examples
• 2:31:27
  Speaker 1: of what a man ought rather to avoid. But I
• 2:31:31
  Speaker 1: will proceed to the other speech, which, as I think,
• 2:31:36
  Speaker 1: is also suggestive to students of rhetoric in what way.
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 1: The two speeches, as you may remember, were unlike. The
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 1: one argued that the lover and the other that the
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 1: non lover ought to be accepted and right manfully should
• 2:32:00
  Speaker 1: rather say madly and madness was the argument of them.
• 2:32:06
  Speaker 1: For as I said, love is a madness, yes, and
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 1: of madness there were two kinds, one produced by human infirmity.
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 1: The other was a divine release of the soul from
• 2:32:24
  Speaker 1: the yoke of custom and convention. True, the divine madness
• 2:32:31
  Speaker 1: was subdivided into four kinds, prophetic, initiatory, poetic, erotic, having
• 2:32:41
  Speaker 1: four gods presiding over them. The first was the inspiration
• 2:32:47
  Speaker 1: of Apollo, the second that of Dionysus, the third that
• 2:32:53
  Speaker 1: of the Muses, the fourth that of Aphrodite and Eros.
• 2:33:00
  Speaker 1: In the description of the last kind of madness, which
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 1: was also said to be the best, we spoke of
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 1: the affection of love in a figure into which we
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 1: introduced a tolerably credible and possibly true, though partly erring myth,
• 2:33:22
  Speaker 1: which was also a hymn in honor of love. Who
• 2:33:26
  Speaker 1: is your Lord and also mine fightre Us and the
• 2:33:31
  Speaker 1: guardian of fair children? And to him we sung the
• 2:33:36
  Speaker 1: hymn in measured and solemn strain. I know that I
• 2:33:42
  Speaker 1: had great pleasure in listening to you. Let us take
• 2:33:47
  Speaker 1: this instance and note how the transition was made from
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 1: blame to praise. What do you mean? I mean to
• 2:33:57
  Speaker 1: say that the composition was most playful. Yet in these
• 2:34:03
  Speaker 1: chance fancies of the hour were involved two principles of
• 2:34:08
  Speaker 1: which we should be too glad to have a clearer description.
• 2:34:12
  Speaker 1: If art could give us one. What are they? First?
• 2:34:18
  Speaker 1: The comprehension of scattered particulars in one idea, as in
• 2:34:25
  Speaker 1: our definition of love, which whether true or false, certainly
• 2:34:30
  Speaker 1: gave clearness and consistency to the discourse. The speaker should
• 2:34:35
  Speaker 1: define his several notions, and so make his meaning clear.
• 2:34:42
  Speaker 1: What is the other principal? Socrates? The second principle is
• 2:34:48
  Speaker 1: that of division into species according to the natural formation,
• 2:34:54
  Speaker 1: where the joint is not breaking any part. As a
• 2:34:59
  Speaker 1: bad case carver might, just as our two discourses alike assumed,
• 2:35:06
  Speaker 1: first of all a single form of unreason, and then
• 2:35:12
  Speaker 1: as the body, which from being one becomes double, and
• 2:35:17
  Speaker 1: may be divided into a left side and right side,
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 1: each having parts right and left of the same name.
• 2:35:27
  Speaker 1: After this manner, the speaker proceeded to divide the parts
• 2:35:32
  Speaker 1: of the left side, and did not desist until he
• 2:35:37
  Speaker 1: found in them an evil or left handed love, which
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 1: he justly reviled, and the other discourse, leading us to
• 2:35:47
  Speaker 1: the madness which lay on the right side, found another love,
• 2:35:53
  Speaker 1: also having the same name, but divine, which the speaker
• 2:35:58
  Speaker 1: held before us and applauded and affirmed to be the
• 2:36:03
  Speaker 1: author of the greatest benefits, most true. I am myself
• 2:36:09
  Speaker 1: a great lover of these processes of division and generalization.
• 2:36:16
  Speaker 1: They help me to speak and to think. And if
• 2:36:20
  Speaker 1: I find any man who is able to see one
• 2:36:23
  Speaker 1: and many in nature him, I follow and walk in
• 2:36:29
  Speaker 1: his footsteps, as if he were a God and those
• 2:36:34
  Speaker 1: who have this art. I have hitherto been in the
• 2:36:38
  Speaker 1: habit of calling dialecticians. But God knows whether the name
• 2:36:43
  Speaker 1: is right or not. And I should like to know
• 2:36:48
  Speaker 1: what name you would give to your or to Lucius's disciples,
• 2:36:54
  Speaker 1: and whether this may not be that famous art of
• 2:36:57
  Speaker 1: rhetoric which Thrasimacus and others teach and practice. Skillful speakers
• 2:37:05
  Speaker 1: they are, and impart their skill to any who is
• 2:37:09
  Speaker 1: willing to make kings of them and to bring gifts
• 2:37:14
  Speaker 1: to them. Yes, they are royal men, but their art
• 2:37:20
  Speaker 1: is not the same with the art of those whom
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 1: you call and rightly, in my opinion, dialecticians. Still we
• 2:37:30
  Speaker 1: are in the dark about rhetoric. What do you mean
• 2:37:35
  Speaker 1: the remains of it? If there be anything remaining which
• 2:37:39
  Speaker 1: can be brought under the rules of art, must be
• 2:37:43
  Speaker 1: a fine thing, and at any rate is not to
• 2:37:47
  Speaker 1: be despised by you and me. But how much is left?
• 2:37:53
  Speaker 1: There is a great deal surely to be found in
• 2:37:56
  Speaker 1: books of rhetoric. Yes, thank you for reminding me. There
• 2:38:04
  Speaker 1: is the exordium showing how the speech should begin. If
• 2:38:09
  Speaker 1: I remember rightly, that is what you mean, the niceties
• 2:38:14
  Speaker 1: of the art. Yes, then follows their statement of facts,
• 2:38:21
  Speaker 1: and upon that witnesses, thirdly proofs. Fourthly, probabilities are to come.
• 2:38:30
  Speaker 1: The great Byzantian word maker also speaks, if I am
• 2:38:35
  Speaker 1: not mistaken of confirmation and further confirmation, You mean the
• 2:38:43
  Speaker 1: excellent Theodorus. Yes, and he tells how refutation or further
• 2:38:52
  Speaker 1: refutation is to be managed, whether in accusation or defense.
• 2:38:59
  Speaker 1: I ought all so to mention the illustrious Parian Evenus,
• 2:39:05
  Speaker 1: who first invented insinuations and indirect praises, and also indirect censures, which,
• 2:39:16
  Speaker 1: according to some, he put into verse to help the memory.
• 2:39:21
  Speaker 1: But shall I, too dumb forgetfulness? Consign Tissias and Gorgeoas,
• 2:39:30
  Speaker 1: who are not ignorant that probability is superior to truth,
• 2:39:36
  Speaker 1: and who by force of argument, make the little appear
• 2:39:40
  Speaker 1: great and the great little disguise the new in old
• 2:39:46
  Speaker 1: fashions and the old in new fashions, and have discovered
• 2:39:52
  Speaker 1: forms for everything, either short or going on to infinity.
• 2:40:01
  Speaker 1: I remember Prodicus laughing when I told him of this.
• 2:40:06
  Speaker 1: He said that he had himself discover'd the true rule
• 2:40:11
  Speaker 1: of art, which was to be neither long nor short,
• 2:40:17
  Speaker 1: but of a convenient length. A well done Prodicus. Then
• 2:40:25
  Speaker 1: there is Hippias, the Alaan stranger, who probably agrees with him. Yes.
• 2:40:33
  Speaker 1: And there is also Polus, who has treasuries of diplesiology
• 2:40:40
  Speaker 1: and gnomology and iconology, and who teaches in them the
• 2:40:48
  Speaker 1: names of which Lecumnius made him a present they were
• 2:40:52
  Speaker 1: to give a Polish had not Protagoras something of the
• 2:40:58
  Speaker 1: same sort, Yes, Yes, rules of correct diction, and many
• 2:41:04
  Speaker 1: other fine precepts for the sorrows of a poor old
• 2:41:09
  Speaker 1: man or any other pathetic case. No one is better
• 2:41:14
  Speaker 1: than the Chalstedonian giant. He can put a whole company
• 2:41:19
  Speaker 1: of people into a passion and out of one again,
• 2:41:24
  Speaker 1: by his mighty magic and his first rate at inventing
• 2:41:29
  Speaker 1: or disposing of any sort of calumny on any grounds
• 2:41:35
  Speaker 1: or none. All of them agree in asserting that a
• 2:41:40
  Speaker 1: speech should end in a recapitulation, though they do not
• 2:41:46
  Speaker 1: all agree to use the same word. You mean that
• 2:41:51
  Speaker 1: there should be a summing up of the arguments in
• 2:41:54
  Speaker 1: order to remind the hearers of them. I have now
• 2:41:59
  Speaker 1: said all that I have to say of the art
• 2:42:02
  Speaker 1: of rhetoric. Have you anything to add? Not much, nothing
• 2:42:09
  Speaker 1: very important. End of Section ten. Section eleven, leave the unimportant,
• 2:42:22
  Speaker 1: and let us bring the really important question into the
• 2:42:26
  Speaker 1: light of day, which is what power has this art
• 2:42:31
  Speaker 1: of rhetoric? And when very great power in public meetings
• 2:42:38
  Speaker 1: it has. But I should like to know whether you
• 2:42:42
  Speaker 1: have the same feeling as I have about the rhetoricians.
• 2:42:47
  Speaker 1: To me, there seem to be a great many holes
• 2:42:51
  Speaker 1: in their web. Give an example. I will suppose a
• 2:42:58
  Speaker 1: person to come to your friend Eric Simachus, or to
• 2:43:02
  Speaker 1: his father Acumenus, and to say to him, I know
• 2:43:07
  Speaker 1: how to apply drugs which shall have either a heating
• 2:43:12
  Speaker 1: or a cooling effect, and I can give a vomit
• 2:43:15
  Speaker 1: and also a purge, and all that sort of thing.
• 2:43:20
  Speaker 1: And knowing all this as I do, I claim to
• 2:43:24
  Speaker 1: be a physician and to make physicians by imparting this
• 2:43:29
  Speaker 1: knowledge to others. What do you suppose that they would say? Hm?
• 2:43:37
  Speaker 1: They would be sure to ask him whether he knew
• 2:43:40
  Speaker 1: to whom he would give his medicines, and when and
• 2:43:45
  Speaker 1: how much? And suppose that he were to reply, no,
• 2:43:51
  Speaker 1: I know nothing of all that. I expect the patient
• 2:43:55
  Speaker 1: who consults me to be able to do these things
• 2:43:59
  Speaker 1: for him himself. They would say in reply that he
• 2:44:03
  Speaker 1: is a madman or a pedant who fancies that he
• 2:44:08
  Speaker 1: is a physician because he has read something in a
• 2:44:11
  Speaker 1: book or has stumbled on a prescription or two, although
• 2:44:16
  Speaker 1: he has no real understanding of the art of medicine.
• 2:44:21
  Speaker 1: And suppose a person where to come to Sophocles or
• 2:44:25
  Speaker 1: Euripides and say that he knows how to make a
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 1: very long speech about a small matter, and a short
• 2:44:35
  Speaker 1: speech about a great matter, and also a sorrowful speech,
• 2:44:41
  Speaker 1: or a terrible or threatening speech, or any other kind
• 2:44:46
  Speaker 1: of speech, And in teaching this fancies that he is
• 2:44:51
  Speaker 1: teaching the art of tragedy. They too, would surely laugh
• 2:44:58
  Speaker 1: at him if he fancies that tragedy is anything but
• 2:45:02
  Speaker 1: the arranging of these elements in a manner which will
• 2:45:06
  Speaker 1: be suitable to one another and to the whole. But
• 2:45:12
  Speaker 1: I do not suppose that they would be rude or
• 2:45:15
  Speaker 1: abusive to him. Would they not treat him as a
• 2:45:19
  Speaker 1: musician a man who thinks that he is a harmonist
• 2:45:24
  Speaker 1: because he knows how to pitch the highest and lowest note.
• 2:45:30
  Speaker 1: Happening to meet such an one, he would not say
• 2:45:34
  Speaker 1: to him, savagely, fool you are mad, But like a
• 2:45:39
  Speaker 1: musician in a gentle and harmonious tone of voice. He
• 2:45:45
  Speaker 1: would answer, my good friend, he who would be a
• 2:45:49
  Speaker 1: harmonist must certainly know this, And yet he may understand
• 2:45:55
  Speaker 1: nothing of harmony if he has not got beyond yours
• 2:46:00
  Speaker 1: stage of knowledge. For you only know the preliminaries of harmony,
• 2:46:05
  Speaker 1: and not harmony itself. Very true, and will not Sophocles
• 2:46:13
  Speaker 1: say to the display of the would be tragedian that
• 2:46:17
  Speaker 1: this is not tragedy, but the preliminaries of tragedy, And
• 2:46:23
  Speaker 1: will not Accumeneus say the same of medicine to the
• 2:46:27
  Speaker 1: would be physician. Quite true. And if Adrastus, the malifluous
• 2:46:35
  Speaker 1: or Pericles heard of these wonderful arts, brachylogies, and iconologies,
• 2:46:44
  Speaker 1: and all the hard names which we have been endeavoring
• 2:46:47
  Speaker 1: to draw into the light of day, what would they say,
• 2:46:52
  Speaker 1: Instead of losing temper and applying uncomplimentary epithets, as you
• 2:46:59
  Speaker 1: and I have been doing to the authors of such
• 2:47:02
  Speaker 1: an imaginary art, their superior wisdom would rather censure us
• 2:47:09
  Speaker 1: as well as them. Have a little patience, Vidrous and Socrates,
• 2:47:15
  Speaker 1: they would say, you should not be in such a
• 2:47:18
  Speaker 1: passion with those who, from some want of dialectical skill,
• 2:47:24
  Speaker 1: are unable to define the nature of rhetoric, and consequently
• 2:47:30
  Speaker 1: suppose that they have found the art in the preliminary
• 2:47:35
  Speaker 1: conditions of it, and when these have been taught by
• 2:47:39
  Speaker 1: them to others, fancy that the whole art of rhetoric
• 2:47:44
  Speaker 1: has been taught by them. But as to using the
• 2:47:48
  Speaker 1: several instruments of the art effectively, or making the composition
• 2:47:54
  Speaker 1: a whole an application of it, such as this is,
• 2:48:00
  Speaker 1: they regard as an easy thing which their disciples may
• 2:48:05
  Speaker 1: make for themselves. I quite admit, Socrates, that the art
• 2:48:11
  Speaker 1: of rhetoric which these men teach and of which they
• 2:48:15
  Speaker 1: write is such as you describe. Dare I agree with you?
• 2:48:20
  Speaker 1: But I still want to know where and how the
• 2:48:24
  Speaker 1: true art of rhetoric and persuasion is to be acquired.
• 2:48:30
  Speaker 1: The perfection which is required of the finished orator is,
• 2:48:35
  Speaker 1: or rather must, be, like the perfection of anything else,
• 2:48:41
  Speaker 1: partly given by nature, but may also be assisted by art.
• 2:48:48
  Speaker 1: If you have the natural power, and add to its
• 2:48:52
  Speaker 1: knowledge and practice, you will be a distinguished speaker. If
• 2:48:58
  Speaker 1: you fall short in either of these, you will be
• 2:49:02
  Speaker 1: to that extent defective. But the art, as far as
• 2:49:08
  Speaker 1: there is an art, of rhetoric does not lie in
• 2:49:12
  Speaker 1: the direction of Lucias or Thracimacus. In what direction, then,
• 2:49:19
  Speaker 1: I conceive Pericles to have been the most accomplished of rhetoricians.
• 2:49:26
  Speaker 1: What of that? All the great arts require discussion and
• 2:49:32
  Speaker 1: high speculation about the truths of nature. Hence come loftiness
• 2:49:39
  Speaker 1: of thought and completeness of execution. And this, as I conceive,
• 2:49:46
  Speaker 1: was the quality which, in addition to his natural gifts,
• 2:49:51
  Speaker 1: Pericles acquired from his intercourse with Anaxagoras, whom he happened
• 2:49:57
  Speaker 1: to know. He was thus in you'd with the higher philosophy,
• 2:50:02
  Speaker 1: and attained the knowledge of mind and the negative of mind,
• 2:50:08
  Speaker 1: which were favorite themes of Anaxagoras, and applied what suited
• 2:50:13
  Speaker 1: his purpose to the art of speaking. Explain, rhetoric is
• 2:50:21
  Speaker 1: like medicine. How SOO why because medicine has to define
• 2:50:27
  Speaker 1: the nature of the body, and rhetoric of the soul.
• 2:50:33
  Speaker 1: If we would proceed not empirically but scientifically, in the
• 2:50:39
  Speaker 1: one case, to impart health and strength by giving medicine
• 2:50:43
  Speaker 1: and food, in the other, to implant the conviction or
• 2:50:48
  Speaker 1: virtue which you desire by the right application of words
• 2:50:53
  Speaker 1: and training. Their socrates I suspect that you are right.
• 2:51:00
  Speaker 1: And do you think that you can know the nature
• 2:51:04
  Speaker 1: of the soul intelligently without knowing the nature of the whole?
• 2:51:11
  Speaker 1: Hipocrates the Asclepiad says that the nature even of the body,
• 2:51:17
  Speaker 1: can only be understood as a whole. Yes, friend, and
• 2:51:22
  Speaker 1: he was right. Still, we ought not to be content
• 2:51:27
  Speaker 1: with the name of Hipocrates, but to examine and see
• 2:51:31
  Speaker 1: whether his argument agrees with his conception of nature. I agree.
• 2:51:38
  Speaker 1: Then consider what truth, as well as Hipocrates says about
• 2:51:44
  Speaker 1: this or about any other nature? Ought we not to
• 2:51:48
  Speaker 1: consider first whether that which we wish to learn and
• 2:51:53
  Speaker 1: to teach is a simple or multiform thing? And if simple,
• 2:52:00
  Speaker 1: then to inquire what power it has of acting or
• 2:52:04
  Speaker 1: being acted upon in relation to other things. And if multiform,
• 2:52:11
  Speaker 1: then to number the forms, and see, first in the
• 2:52:15
  Speaker 1: case of one of them, and then in the case
• 2:52:18
  Speaker 1: of all of them, what is that power of acting
• 2:52:23
  Speaker 1: or being acted upon which makes each and all of
• 2:52:27
  Speaker 1: them to be what they are. You may very likely
• 2:52:33
  Speaker 1: be right, Socrates. The method which proceeds without analysis is
• 2:52:41
  Speaker 1: like the groping of a blind man. Yet surely he
• 2:52:45
  Speaker 1: who is an artist ought not to admit of a
• 2:52:49
  Speaker 1: comparison with the blind or death. The rhetorician who teaches
• 2:52:55
  Speaker 1: his pupil to speak scientifically will particularly set forth the
• 2:53:01
  Speaker 1: nature of that being to which he addresses his speeches.
• 2:53:06
  Speaker 1: And this I conceive to be the soul. Certainly, his
• 2:53:12
  Speaker 1: whole effort is directed to the soul, for in that
• 2:53:17
  Speaker 1: he seeks to produce conviction. Yes, then, clearly Thrasimacus or
• 2:53:24
  Speaker 1: anyone else who teaches rhetoric in earnest will give an
• 2:53:29
  Speaker 1: exact description of the nature of the soul, which will
• 2:53:34
  Speaker 1: enable us to see whether she be single and same
• 2:53:38
  Speaker 1: or like the body multiform. That is what we should
• 2:53:43
  Speaker 1: call showing the nature of the soul exactly. He will explain, Secondly,
• 2:53:52
  Speaker 1: the mode in which she acts or is acted upon.
• 2:53:57
  Speaker 1: Two Thirdly, classified men and speeches and their kinds and affections,
• 2:54:06
  Speaker 1: and adapted them to one another. He will tell the
• 2:54:10
  Speaker 1: reasons of his arrangement, and show why one soul is
• 2:54:15
  Speaker 1: persuaded by a particular form of argument and another not.
• 2:54:21
  Speaker 1: You have hit upon a very good way. Yes, that
• 2:54:26
  Speaker 1: is the true and only way in which any subject
• 2:54:31
  Speaker 1: can be set forth or treated by the rules of art,
• 2:54:35
  Speaker 1: whether in speaking or writing. But the writers of the
• 2:54:41
  Speaker 1: present day, at whose feet you have sat craftily concealed
• 2:54:48
  Speaker 1: the nature of the soul, which they know quite well.
• 2:54:53
  Speaker 1: Nor until they adopt our method of reading and writing,
• 2:54:58
  Speaker 1: can we admit that they right by rules of art?
• 2:55:03
  Speaker 1: What is our method? I cannot give you the exact details,
• 2:55:10
  Speaker 1: but I should like to tell you, generally, as far
• 2:55:13
  Speaker 1: as is in my power, how a man ought to
• 2:55:17
  Speaker 1: proceed according to rules of art. Let me hear end
• 2:55:26
  Speaker 1: of section eleven, Section twelve. Oratory is the art of
• 2:55:35
  Speaker 1: enchanting the soul. And therefore he who would be an
• 2:55:40
  Speaker 1: orator has to learn the differences of human souls. They
• 2:55:46
  Speaker 1: are so many and of such a nature, and from
• 2:55:50
  Speaker 1: them come the differences between man and man. Having proceeded
• 2:55:57
  Speaker 1: thus far in his analysis, he will next divide speeches
• 2:56:03
  Speaker 1: into their different classes. Such and such persons, he will say,
• 2:56:09
  Speaker 1: are affected by this or that kind of speech in
• 2:56:14
  Speaker 1: this or that way, And he will tell you why.
• 2:56:18
  Speaker 1: The pupil must have a good theoretical notion of them first,
• 2:56:24
  Speaker 1: and then he must have experience of them in actual life,
• 2:56:29
  Speaker 1: and be able to follow them with all his senses
• 2:56:32
  Speaker 1: about him, or he will never get beyond the precepts
• 2:56:36
  Speaker 1: of his masters. But when he understands what persons are
• 2:56:43
  Speaker 1: persuaded by what arguments, and sees the person about whom
• 2:56:48
  Speaker 1: he was speaking in the abstract actually before him, and
• 2:56:54
  Speaker 1: knows that it is he, and can say to himself,
• 2:56:58
  Speaker 1: this is the man, or this is the character who
• 2:57:02
  Speaker 1: ought to have a certain argument applied to him in
• 2:57:06
  Speaker 1: order to convince him of a certain opinion. He who
• 2:57:11
  Speaker 1: knows all this, and knows also when he should speak,
• 2:57:16
  Speaker 1: and when he should refrain, and when he should use
• 2:57:20
  Speaker 1: pithee sayings, pathetic appeals, sensational effects, and all the other
• 2:57:28
  Speaker 1: modes of speech which he has learned. When I say
• 2:57:33
  Speaker 1: he knows the times and seasons of all these things,
• 2:57:38
  Speaker 1: then and not till then he is a perfect master
• 2:57:44
  Speaker 1: of his art. But if he fail in any of
• 2:57:48
  Speaker 1: these points, whether in speaking or teaching or writing them,
• 2:57:54
  Speaker 1: and yet declares that he speaks by rules of art,
• 2:57:58
  Speaker 1: he who says, I don't believe you has the better
• 2:58:03
  Speaker 1: of him. Well, the teacher will say, is this fidrous?
• 2:58:10
  Speaker 1: And Socrates, your account of the so called art of rhetoric?
• 2:58:16
  Speaker 1: Or am I to look for another? He must take this, Socrates,
• 2:58:22
  Speaker 1: for there is no possibility of another. And yet the
• 2:58:27
  Speaker 1: creation of such an art is not easy, very true.
• 2:58:33
  Speaker 1: And therefore let us consider this matter in every light
• 2:58:38
  Speaker 1: and see whether we cannot find a shorter and easier road.
• 2:58:43
  Speaker 1: There is no use in taking a long, rough, roundabout
• 2:58:47
  Speaker 1: way if there be a shorter and easier one. And
• 2:58:52
  Speaker 1: I wish that you would try and remember whether you
• 2:58:55
  Speaker 1: have heard from Lysias or any one else, anything which
• 2:59:00
  Speaker 1: might be of service to us. If trying would avail,
• 2:59:07
  Speaker 1: then I might, But at the moment I can think
• 2:59:11
  Speaker 1: of nothing. Suppose I tell you something which somebody who
• 2:59:17
  Speaker 1: knows told me certainly may not. The wolf, as the
• 2:59:25
  Speaker 1: proverb says, claim a hearing, do you say what can
• 2:59:30
  Speaker 1: be said for him? He will argue that there is
• 2:59:36
  Speaker 1: no use in putting a solemn face on these matters,
• 2:59:40
  Speaker 1: or in going round and round until you arrive at
• 2:59:45
  Speaker 1: first principles. For as I said, at first, when the
• 2:59:50
  Speaker 1: question is of justice or good, or is a question
• 2:59:54
  Speaker 1: in which men are concerned who are just and good,
• 2:59:59
  Speaker 1: either by nature or habit, he who would be a
• 3:00:03
  Speaker 1: skillful rhetorician has no need of truth, for that. In
• 3:00:09
  Speaker 1: courts of law, men literally care nothing about truth, but
• 3:00:15
  Speaker 1: only about conviction. And this is based on probability, to
• 3:00:22
  Speaker 1: which he who would be a skillful orator should therefore
• 3:00:26
  Speaker 1: give his whole attention. And they say also that there
• 3:00:32
  Speaker 1: are cases in which the actual facts, if they are improbable,
• 3:00:38
  Speaker 1: ought to be withheld, and only the probabilities should be told,
• 3:00:43
  Speaker 1: either in accusation or defense, and that always in speaking
• 3:00:50
  Speaker 1: the orator should keep probability in view and say goodbye
• 3:00:56
  Speaker 1: to the truth. And the observation of this principle throughout
• 3:01:01
  Speaker 1: a speech vurnishes the whole art. That is what the
• 3:01:09
  Speaker 1: professors of rhetoric do actually say. Socrates, I have not
• 3:01:14
  Speaker 1: forgotten that we have quite briefly touched upon this matter
• 3:01:19
  Speaker 1: already with them. The point is all important. I dare
• 3:01:26
  Speaker 1: say that you are familiar with Tisseias. Does he not
• 3:01:31
  Speaker 1: define probability to be that which the many think? Certainly
• 3:01:38
  Speaker 1: he does. I believe that he has a clever and
• 3:01:42
  Speaker 1: ingenious case of this sort. He supposes a feeble and
• 3:01:48
  Speaker 1: valiant man to have assaulted a strong and cowardly one,
• 3:01:54
  Speaker 1: and to have robbed him off his coat or of
• 3:01:57
  Speaker 1: something or other. He is brought into court, and then
• 3:02:02
  Speaker 1: Tissias says that both parties should tell lies. The coward
• 3:02:09
  Speaker 1: should say that he was assaulted by more men than one,
• 3:02:13
  Speaker 1: the other should prove that they were alone, and should argue, thus,
• 3:02:20
  Speaker 1: how could a weak man like me have assaulted a
• 3:02:24
  Speaker 1: strong man like him? The complainant will not like to
• 3:02:29
  Speaker 1: confess his own cowardice, and will therefore invent some other lie,
• 3:02:35
  Speaker 1: which his adversary will thus gain an opportunity of refuting.
• 3:02:40
  Speaker 1: And there are other devices of the same kind which
• 3:02:45
  Speaker 1: have a place in the system. Am I not right fidrous?
• 3:02:51
  Speaker 1: Certainly bless me? What a wonderfully mysterious art is this
• 3:02:59
  Speaker 1: which Tisseas or some other gentleman in whatever name or
• 3:03:05
  Speaker 1: country he rejoices, has discovered. Shall we say a word
• 3:03:11
  Speaker 1: to him? Or not? What shall we say to him?
• 3:03:17
  Speaker 1: Let us tell him that before he appeared you and
• 3:03:21
  Speaker 1: I were saying that the probability of which he speaks
• 3:03:25
  Speaker 1: was engendered in the minds of the many by the
• 3:03:29
  Speaker 1: likeness of the truth. And we had just been affirming
• 3:03:34
  Speaker 1: that he who knew the truth would always know best
• 3:03:39
  Speaker 1: how to discover the resemblances of the truth. If he
• 3:03:44
  Speaker 1: has anything else to say about the art of speaking,
• 3:03:48
  Speaker 1: we should like to hear him. But if not, we
• 3:03:52
  Speaker 1: are satisfied with our own view that unless a man
• 3:03:56
  Speaker 1: estimates the various characters of his hearers, and is able
• 3:04:01
  Speaker 1: to divide all things into classes and to comprehend them
• 3:04:06
  Speaker 1: under single ideas, he will never be a skillful rhetorician,
• 3:04:13
  Speaker 1: even within the limits of human power. And this skill
• 3:04:19
  Speaker 1: he will not attain without a great deal of trouble,
• 3:04:23
  Speaker 1: which a good man ought to undergo, not for the
• 3:04:27
  Speaker 1: sake of speaking and acting before men, but in order
• 3:04:32
  Speaker 1: that he may be able to say what is acceptable
• 3:04:36
  Speaker 1: to God, and always to act acceptably to Him, as
• 3:04:42
  Speaker 1: far as in him lies. For there is a saying
• 3:04:46
  Speaker 1: of wiser men than ourselves that a man of sense
• 3:04:50
  Speaker 1: should not try to please his fellow servants. At least
• 3:04:56
  Speaker 1: this should not be his first object, but his good
• 3:05:00
  Speaker 1: and noble masters. And therefore, if the way is long
• 3:05:06
  Speaker 1: and secuitous, marvel not at this, For where the end
• 3:05:12
  Speaker 1: is great, there we may take the longer road, but
• 3:05:17
  Speaker 1: not for lesser ends such as yours. Truly, the argument
• 3:05:23
  Speaker 1: may say, Tisseas that if you do not mind going
• 3:05:28
  Speaker 1: so far, rhetoric has a fair beginning here. I think
• 3:05:35
  Speaker 1: Socrates that this is admirable, if only practicable. But even
• 3:05:43
  Speaker 1: to fail in an honorable object is honorable true end
• 3:05:55
  Speaker 1: of section twelve, Section thirteen. Enough appears to have been
• 3:06:04
  Speaker 1: said by us of a true and false art of speaking, certainly,
• 3:06:11
  Speaker 1: but there is something yet to be said of propriety
• 3:06:15
  Speaker 1: and impropriety of writing. Yes, do you know how you
• 3:06:22
  Speaker 1: can speak or act about rhetoric in a manner which
• 3:06:27
  Speaker 1: will be acceptable to God? No? Indeed, do you I
• 3:06:35
  Speaker 1: have heard a tradition of the ancients, whether true or not?
• 3:06:40
  Speaker 1: They only know, Although if we had found the truth ourselves,
• 3:06:46
  Speaker 1: do you think that we should care much about the
• 3:06:49
  Speaker 1: opinions of men? Your question needs no answer, But I
• 3:06:55
  Speaker 1: wish that you would tell me what you say that
• 3:06:58
  Speaker 1: you have heard. At the Egyptian city of Naukratis there
• 3:07:05
  Speaker 1: was a famous old god whose name was Theuth. The
• 3:07:10
  Speaker 1: bird which is called the Ibis is sacred to him,
• 3:07:14
  Speaker 1: and he was the inventor of many arts, such as
• 3:07:18
  Speaker 1: arithmetic and calculation, and geometry, and astronomy, and drafts and dice.
• 3:07:28
  Speaker 1: But his great discovery was the use of letters. Now,
• 3:07:34
  Speaker 1: in those days, the god Thamus was king of the
• 3:07:38
  Speaker 1: whole country of Egypt, and he dwelt in that great
• 3:07:42
  Speaker 1: city of Upper Egypt, which the Hellenes call Egyptian Thebes,
• 3:07:49
  Speaker 1: and the god himself is called by them Ammon. To
• 3:07:55
  Speaker 1: him came youth and showed his inventions, desiring that the
• 3:08:01
  Speaker 1: other Egyptians might be allowed to have the benefit of them.
• 3:08:07
  Speaker 1: He enumerated them, and Thamos inquired about their several uses,
• 3:08:14
  Speaker 1: and praised some of them and censured others, as he
• 3:08:18
  Speaker 1: approved or disapprov'd of them. It would take a long
• 3:08:23
  Speaker 1: time to repeat all that Thamos said to theuth in
• 3:08:28
  Speaker 1: praise or blame of the various arts. But when they
• 3:08:33
  Speaker 1: came to letters, this said youth will make the Egyptians
• 3:08:38
  Speaker 1: wiser and give them better memories. It is a specific
• 3:08:43
  Speaker 1: both for the memory and for the wit. Thamos replied, oh,
• 3:08:50
  Speaker 1: most ingenious youth, the parent or inventor of an art
• 3:08:55
  Speaker 1: is not always the best judge of the utility or
• 3:09:00
  Speaker 1: inutility of his own inventions to the users of them.
• 3:09:06
  Speaker 1: And in this instance, you, who are the father of letters,
• 3:09:11
  Speaker 1: from a paternal love of your own children, have been
• 3:09:15
  Speaker 1: led to attribute to them a quality which they cannot have.
• 3:09:20
  Speaker 1: For this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the
• 3:09:26
  Speaker 1: learner's souls, because they will not use their memories. They
• 3:09:32
  Speaker 1: will trust to the external written characters, and not remember
• 3:09:38
  Speaker 1: of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an
• 3:09:43
  Speaker 1: aid not to memory but to reminiscence. And you give
• 3:09:49
  Speaker 1: your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth.
• 3:09:55
  Speaker 1: They will be the hearers of many things, and will
• 3:09:59
  Speaker 1: have loved and nothing. They will appear to be omniscient,
• 3:10:05
  Speaker 1: and will generally know nothing. They will be tiresome company,
• 3:10:11
  Speaker 1: having the show of wisdom without the reality. Yes, Socrates,
• 3:10:18
  Speaker 1: you can easily invent tales of Egypt or of any
• 3:10:23
  Speaker 1: other country. There was a tradition in the temple of
• 3:10:29
  Speaker 1: Dodona that oaks first gave prophetic utterances. The men of old,
• 3:10:37
  Speaker 1: unlike in their simplicity to young philosophy, determined that if
• 3:10:43
  Speaker 1: they heard the truth, even from oak or rock, it
• 3:10:48
  Speaker 1: was enough for them. Whereas you seem to consider not
• 3:10:54
  Speaker 1: whether a thing is or is not true, but who
• 3:10:59
  Speaker 1: the speaker is and from what country the tale comes.
• 3:11:07
  Speaker 1: I acknowledge the justice of your rebuke, and I think
• 3:11:12
  Speaker 1: that the theban is writ in his view about letters, hm,
• 3:11:17
  Speaker 1: he would be a very simple person, and quite a
• 3:11:22
  Speaker 1: stranger to the oracles of Thamos or Ammon, who should
• 3:11:27
  Speaker 1: leave in writing or receive in writing any art under
• 3:11:32
  Speaker 1: the idea that the written word would be intelligible or certain,
• 3:11:39
  Speaker 1: or who deemed that writing was at all better than
• 3:11:43
  Speaker 1: knowledge and recollection of the same matters. That is most true.
• 3:11:51
  Speaker 1: I cannot help feeling fightrous that writing is unfortunately like painting,
• 3:12:00
  Speaker 1: For the creations of the painter have the attitude of life.
• 3:12:05
  Speaker 1: And yet if you ask them a question, they preserve
• 3:12:09
  Speaker 1: a solemn silence. And the same may be said of speeches.
• 3:12:15
  Speaker 1: You would imagine that they had intelligence. But if you
• 3:12:19
  Speaker 1: want to know anything and put a question to one
• 3:12:23
  Speaker 1: of them, the speaker always gives one unvarying answer. And
• 3:12:30
  Speaker 1: when they have been once written down, they are tumbled
• 3:12:35
  Speaker 1: about anywhere among those who may or may not understand them,
• 3:12:41
  Speaker 1: and know not to whom they should reply, to whom not.
• 3:12:46
  Speaker 1: And if they are maltreated or abused, they have no
• 3:12:51
  Speaker 1: parent to protect them, and they cannot protect or defend themselves.
• 3:12:58
  Speaker 1: That again is most true. Is there not another kind
• 3:13:04
  Speaker 1: of word or speech far better than this, and having
• 3:13:09
  Speaker 1: far greater power? A son of the same family, but
• 3:13:15
  Speaker 1: lawfully begotten. Whom do you mean, and what is his origin?
• 3:13:21
  Speaker 1: I mean an intelligent word graven in the soul of
• 3:13:26
  Speaker 1: the learner, which can defend itself, and knows when to
• 3:13:32
  Speaker 1: speak and when to be silent. You mean the living
• 3:13:37
  Speaker 1: word of knowledge, which has a soul, and of which
• 3:13:41
  Speaker 1: the written word is properly no more than an image. Yes,
• 3:13:48
  Speaker 1: of course, that is what I mean. And now may
• 3:13:53
  Speaker 1: I be allowed to ask you a question. Would a
• 3:13:58
  Speaker 1: husbandman who is a man of sense take the seeds
• 3:14:02
  Speaker 1: which he values and which he wishes to bear fruit,
• 3:14:07
  Speaker 1: and in sober seriousness plant them during the heat of
• 3:14:12
  Speaker 1: summer in some garden of a dunis, that he may
• 3:14:16
  Speaker 1: rejoice when he sees them in eight days appearing in beauty.
• 3:14:22
  Speaker 1: At least, he would do so if at all only
• 3:14:27
  Speaker 1: for the sake of amusement and pastime. But if he
• 3:14:31
  Speaker 1: is in earnest, he sows in fitting soil and practices husbandry,
• 3:14:38
  Speaker 1: and is satisfied if in eight months the seeds which
• 3:14:43
  Speaker 1: he has sown arrive at perfection. Yes, Socrates, that will
• 3:14:49
  Speaker 1: be his way. When he is in earnest, he will
• 3:14:52
  Speaker 1: do the other, as you say, only in play. And
• 3:14:57
  Speaker 1: can we suppose that he who knows the just and
• 3:15:01
  Speaker 1: good and honorable has less understanding than the husbandman about
• 3:15:07
  Speaker 1: his own seeds. Certainly not, then he will not seriously
• 3:15:14
  Speaker 1: incline to write his thoughts in water with pen and ink,
• 3:15:20
  Speaker 1: sowing words which can neither speak for themselves nor teach
• 3:15:25
  Speaker 1: the truth adequately to others. No, that is not likely. No,
• 3:15:32
  Speaker 1: that is not likely. In the garden of letters he
• 3:15:37
  Speaker 1: will sow and plant, but only for the sake of
• 3:15:41
  Speaker 1: recreation and amusement. He will write them down as memorials,
• 3:15:47
  Speaker 1: to be treasured against the forgetfulness of old age, by
• 3:15:51
  Speaker 1: himself or by any other old man who is treading
• 3:15:56
  Speaker 1: the same path. He will rejoice in beholding their tender growth,
• 3:16:03
  Speaker 1: And while others are refreshing their souls with banqueting and
• 3:16:07
  Speaker 1: the like, this will be the pastime in which his
• 3:16:11
  Speaker 1: days are spent, a pastime Socrates, as noble as the
• 3:16:18
  Speaker 1: other is ignoble. The pastime of a man who can
• 3:16:22
  Speaker 1: be amused by serious talk, and can discourse merrily about
• 3:16:28
  Speaker 1: justice and the like. True, fidrous, but nobler far is
• 3:16:35
  Speaker 1: the serious pursuit of the dialectician, who, finding a congenial
• 3:16:41
  Speaker 1: soul by the help of science, souls and plants therein
• 3:16:46
  Speaker 1: words which are able to help themselves, And him who
• 3:16:51
  Speaker 1: planted them, and are not unfruitful, but have in them
• 3:16:56
  Speaker 1: a seed which others brought up. Indifference soils render immortal,
• 3:17:03
  Speaker 1: making the possessors of it happy to the utmost extent
• 3:17:09
  Speaker 1: of human happiness. Far nobler, certainly. End of Section thirteen,
• 3:17:21
  Speaker 1: Section fourteen. And now Fidrus, having agreed upon the premises,
• 3:17:29
  Speaker 1: we may decide about the conclusion about what conclusion about
• 3:17:38
  Speaker 1: Lucias whom we censur'd, and his art of writing, and
• 3:17:44
  Speaker 1: his discourses, and the rhetorical skill or want of skill,
• 3:17:50
  Speaker 1: which was shown in them. These are the questions which
• 3:17:54
  Speaker 1: we sought to determine, and they brought us to this point.
• 3:18:00
  Speaker 1: And I think that we are now pretty well informed
• 3:18:04
  Speaker 1: about the nature of art and its opposite. Yes, I
• 3:18:09
  Speaker 1: think with you, but I wish that you would repeat
• 3:18:13
  Speaker 1: what was said HM. Until a man knows the truth
• 3:18:20
  Speaker 1: of the several particulars of which he is writing or speaking,
• 3:18:25
  Speaker 1: and is able to define them as they are, and,
• 3:18:29
  Speaker 1: having defined them again, to divide them until they can
• 3:18:34
  Speaker 1: be no longer divided, And until in like manner, he
• 3:18:40
  Speaker 1: is able to discern the nature of the soul and
• 3:18:44
  Speaker 1: discover the different modes of discourse which are adapted to
• 3:18:49
  Speaker 1: different natures, and to arrange and dispose them in such
• 3:18:55
  Speaker 1: a way that the simple form of speech may be
• 3:18:59
  Speaker 1: addressed to the simpler nature, and the complex and composite
• 3:19:05
  Speaker 1: to the more complex nature. Until he has accomplished all this,
• 3:19:12
  Speaker 1: he will be unable to handle arguments according to rules
• 3:19:16
  Speaker 1: of art, as far as their nature allows them to
• 3:19:21
  Speaker 1: be subjected to art, either for the purpose of teaching
• 3:19:26
  Speaker 1: or persuading. Such is the view which is implied in
• 3:19:31
  Speaker 1: the whole preceding argument. Yes, that was our view. Certainly. Secondly,
• 3:19:41
  Speaker 1: as to the censure which was passed on the speaking
• 3:19:45
  Speaker 1: or writing of discourses, and how they might be rightly
• 3:19:51
  Speaker 1: or wrongly censured, did not our previous argument show show
• 3:19:58
  Speaker 1: what that? Whether Lucias or any other writer that ever
• 3:20:04
  Speaker 1: was or will be, whether private man or statesman proposes
• 3:20:10
  Speaker 1: laws and so becomes the author of a political treatise,
• 3:20:15
  Speaker 1: fancying that there is any great certainty and clearness in
• 3:20:20
  Speaker 1: his performance, the fact of his soul writing is only
• 3:20:25
  Speaker 1: a disgrace to him, whatever men may say. For not
• 3:20:31
  Speaker 1: to know the nature of justice and injustice, and good
• 3:20:36
  Speaker 1: and evil, and not to be able to distinguish the
• 3:20:40
  Speaker 1: dream from the reality, cannot in truth be otherwise than
• 3:20:45
  Speaker 1: disgraceful to him, even though he have the applause of
• 3:20:49
  Speaker 1: the whole world. Certainly, but he who thinks that in
• 3:20:56
  Speaker 1: the written word there is necessarily much which is not serious,
• 3:21:02
  Speaker 1: and that neither poetry nor prose, spoken nor written, is
• 3:21:07
  Speaker 1: of any great value, if, like the compositions of the Rhapsodes,
• 3:21:13
  Speaker 1: they are only recited in order to be believed, and
• 3:21:17
  Speaker 1: not with any view to criticism or instruction. And who
• 3:21:23
  Speaker 1: thinks that even the best of writings are but a
• 3:21:26
  Speaker 1: reminiscence of what we know, And that only in principles
• 3:21:32
  Speaker 1: of justice and goodness and nobility, taught and communicated orally
• 3:21:38
  Speaker 1: for the sake of instruction and graven in the soul,
• 3:21:43
  Speaker 1: which is the true way of writing, is their clearness
• 3:21:48
  Speaker 1: and perfection and seriousness. And that such principles are a
• 3:21:54
  Speaker 1: man's own and his legitimate offspring in the first place,
• 3:22:01
  Speaker 1: the word which he finds in his own bosom. Secondly,
• 3:22:07
  Speaker 1: the brethren and descendants and relations of his idea, which
• 3:22:12
  Speaker 1: have been duly implanted by him in the souls of others,
• 3:22:17
  Speaker 1: And who cares for them and no others. This is
• 3:22:22
  Speaker 1: the right sort of man, And you and I Fidrus
• 3:22:28
  Speaker 1: would pray that we may become like him. That is
• 3:22:33
  Speaker 1: most assuredly my desire and prayer. And now the play
• 3:22:40
  Speaker 1: is played out and of rhetoric. Enough, go and tell
• 3:22:46
  Speaker 1: Lysias that to the fountain and school of the nymphs
• 3:22:51
  Speaker 1: we went down and were bidden by them to convey
• 3:22:55
  Speaker 1: a message to him, and to other composers of speeches,
• 3:23:00
  Speaker 1: to Homer and other writers of poems, whether set to
• 3:23:05
  Speaker 1: music or not, and to Solon and others who have
• 3:23:10
  Speaker 1: compos'd writings in the form of political discourses, which they
• 3:23:16
  Speaker 1: would term laws. To all of them, we are to
• 3:23:20
  Speaker 1: say that if their compositions are based on knowledge of
• 3:23:25
  Speaker 1: the truth, and they can defend or prove them when
• 3:23:29
  Speaker 1: they are put to the test by spoken arguments which
• 3:23:35
  Speaker 1: leave their writings poor in comparison of them, then they
• 3:23:40
  Speaker 1: are to be called not only poets orators legislators, but
• 3:23:47
  Speaker 1: are worthy of a higher name befitting the serious pursuit
• 3:23:52
  Speaker 1: of their life. What name would you assign to them?
• 3:23:59
  Speaker 1: Whyse I may not call them, for that is a
• 3:24:03
  Speaker 1: great name which belongs to God alone. Lovers of wisdom
• 3:24:09
  Speaker 1: or philosophers. Is their modest and befitting title, very suitable
• 3:24:19
  Speaker 1: and he who cannot rise above his own compilations and
• 3:24:24
  Speaker 1: compositions which he has been long patching and piecing, adding
• 3:24:30
  Speaker 1: some and taking away some, may be justly called poet,
• 3:24:36
  Speaker 1: or speech maker or law maker. Certainly, now go and
• 3:24:44
  Speaker 1: tell this to your companion. But there is also a
• 3:24:50
  Speaker 1: friend of yours who ought not to be forgotten. Who
• 3:24:54
  Speaker 1: is he? I so cratise the fair. What message will
• 3:25:00
  Speaker 1: you send to him? And how shall we describe him?
• 3:25:08
  Speaker 1: Isocrates is still young, fidrous, but I am willing to
• 3:25:13
  Speaker 1: hazard a prophecy concerning him. What would you prophesy? I?
• 3:25:20
  Speaker 1: I think that he has a genius which soars above
• 3:25:24
  Speaker 1: the orations of Lucias, and that his character is cast
• 3:25:29
  Speaker 1: in a finer mold. My impression of him is that
• 3:25:34
  Speaker 1: he will marvelously improve as he grows older, and that
• 3:25:39
  Speaker 1: all former rhetoricians will be as children in comparison of him.
• 3:25:46
  Speaker 1: And I believe that he will not be satisfied with rhetoric,
• 3:25:51
  Speaker 1: but that there is in him a divine inspiration which
• 3:25:56
  Speaker 1: will lead him to things higher still, For he has
• 3:26:01
  Speaker 1: an element of philosophy in his nature. This is the
• 3:26:06
  Speaker 1: message of the gods dwelling in this place, and which
• 3:26:11
  Speaker 1: I will myself deliver to Isocrates, who is my delight,
• 3:26:19
  Speaker 1: And do you give the other to Lucias, who is yours?
• 3:26:27
  Speaker 1: I will. And now as the heat is abated, let
• 3:26:31
  Speaker 1: us depart. Should we not offer up a prayer first
• 3:26:39
  Speaker 1: of all to the local deities, by all means, beloved
• 3:26:45
  Speaker 1: Pan and all ye other gods who haunt this place,
• 3:26:51
  Speaker 1: give me beauty in the inward soul. And may the
• 3:26:57
  Speaker 1: outward and inward man be at one. May I reckon
• 3:27:03
  Speaker 1: the wise to be the wealthy, And may I have
• 3:27:08
  Speaker 1: such a quantity of gold as a tempered man and
• 3:27:13
  Speaker 1: he only can bear and carry, oh anything more. The
• 3:27:22
  Speaker 1: prayer I think is enough for me, Ask the same
• 3:27:27
  Speaker 1: for me. For friends should have all things in common.
• 3:27:34
  Speaker 1: Let us go. End of section fourteen.