Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH SE1:E22 - Insider/Outsider
Transcript
- Vadim Avshalumov: I remember moving to the States and we lived in apartments, flats, I guess you call And it took me a while to kind of r realize that like, wait a minute, we live in these apartments, but the rest of my classmates l live in these single family homes. And like, why is that? Oliver Joseph: when I first started as a rabbi I was very, reticent to tell anybody as a rabbi and then mid career like five years in six years in I would tell anybody who would listen and then after October 7th I've kind of in some corners of the world become a lot quieter now that my job is largely public facing so I don't have that much choice to kind of keep the story quiet but you know when you're traveling parts of London parts the UK parts of Europe I certainly am more careful Vadim Avshalumov: And at those moments you feel like an outsider. Or maybe there were times where I was embarrassed to speak to my parents or my grandparents in Russian. but, you know, as I got older and more mature, I think it's something that I became quite proud of, my unique background and heritage. Oliver Joseph: Welcome to Really Jewish, our podcast about what it is to be really Jewish. If you're back for another listen, welcome back. If you're here for the first time, we are entering a really cool few weeks in the summer of having lots of guests. I'm often joined now about once a month with my co-host here, Erald Dan, who is a secular Jew living in Jerusalem and I am a rabbi, somewhat religious. living in London. We are talking about big topics that affect the Jewish community. What is to be really Jewish? What Judaism is and they're really delighted to have you along for the ride the highs and the lows of this podcast, which is now on its 22nd episode, we're about six months into running this podcast. can if you're watching on YouTube, you can excuse the slight mess behind me because we are some of the tech isn't quite working for the production this podcast, the blur. But that's okay. Welcome to the home. This week we are joined by Vadim of Shalom of a really dear and close friend for almost 20 years that we've known each other. He was working in London. for our youth movement back in the day when I was there and I just kind of love and somebody who's also a maha somebody's doing a lot for the community. The topic of conversation this week is inside outsider like what it means to belong to this community and somebody who immigrated himself first Israel and then to the US from the former Soviet Union from Azerbaijan. He's got a really fascinating story to tell. and one which has within it some sadness and moments of real joy and liberation and greatness of the story of their family comes in states and really making a good and strong life for themselves there. He's a close friend of mine Vadim and they're really blessed and pleased to have him on the podcast this week. So follow along for our 22nd episode six months in of really Jewish thanks for coming along. So, welcome Vadim Afshaloumov, it's so nice to be together. Vadim, you're a really old friend from, you're not old, but we go back pretty long way, like 20 years now? I didn't even count in preparation for this podcast. Vadim Avshalumov: Almost twenty years, I would say. Oliver Joseph: But what year did you live in London for? Vadim Avshalumov: two thousand seven and two thousand eight. Oliver Joseph: You are a s- Vadim Avshalumov: But I'd come back I'd come back here and there to help with the summer camp, the Noam summer camp as well. Oliver Joseph: It's true. I thought you were say you're emigrating and coming back to London. We are really delighted to have you on the podcast. You and I work together for Noam and Marron for the Masul to Youth movement and for like the Young Adult program in our movement back in that time, 2007, Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: 2008. It was dreamy days back in London. We got up to loads of trouble. Nothing too crazy, but we... We spent a lot of time eating together a lot of time winding up our colleague Vadim Avshalumov: We did. I was gonna have I was gonna have a variety of meats on the t on on my table during this 'cause I thought it would be pretty Oliver Joseph: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Vadim Avshalumov: appropriate, but you know, we're recording this the the week of the nine days, so I thought maybe it less appropriate. Oliver Joseph: Exactly, it's true. It's true. We are recording this just before the fast of Tisha Bab for the week after. Argentina's just got knocked out of the World Cup. Finally, we Vadim Avshalumov: Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: are, but we had a lot of fun in that year. You're an interesting character because you are your dad. We got married at similar times to different people, fortunately. You're working philanthropy. Vadim Avshalumov: Yes. Oliver Joseph: You're a Jew from the Caucasus mountains and one Vadim Avshalumov: Yes. Oliver Joseph: of your first languages is Russian and you live in Detroit in Vadim Avshalumov: Yes. Yes. Oliver Joseph: Michigan in some of the, guess, northern states in the States. I spent a year, a summer or a winter, it must have been a winter working with you. was six feet of snow on the ground. I remember very Vadim Avshalumov: Yes. Oliver Joseph: famously that I walked from the school that I was working at home to your parents' house. and they almost sent out the police to come Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah, unheard of. Unheard Yeah. Oliver Joseph: and collect me because it was such a odd thing for a person to do to walk in the suburbs of Detroit. Vadim Avshalumov: No, in the winter time. Come on, we have deal. But yeah, yeah. Oliver Joseph: But you're a fabulous, you're a big and a fabulous friend. And I was just really interested Vadim Avshalumov: Thank you. Oliver Joseph: to bring you on to the story to on the podcast to talk about the meaning of home because you're a person who kind of grew up with immigrant parents in the States and has a really fascinating and somewhat unusual story in the Jewish community. So welcome Vadim. Just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. and how you guys ended up in Detroit of all places, Motor City in the States. Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. Yeah, thanks O. J. Thanks for invit how how should I introduce or call you? OJ, Rabbi Joseph, what's the preferred yeah. Oliver Joseph: whatever comes naturally by then this is a very informal podcast. OJ is fine. Vadim Avshalumov: Our Spike Joseph. Oliver Joseph: Most people will not know the nickname OJ so go for it. Now they do. Vadim Avshalumov: Okay. So look, I mean you know, I just by way of background, yeah, I am a husband, a father of three usually very cute kids. I live in Metro Detroit, as you mentioned, and I work in philanthropy. Yeah, I'm an immigrant to the US. my family I am originally from the Soviet Union. I'm one of those people that You know, when you choose country of origin and you go to the dropbox, that country's not there anymore. So you kind of have to make a a call. Like what do you do you say, Russia? I usually choose Azerbaijan because that's the republic that's that we're from. So when I was six we moved to Israel, to Haifa. And when I was about ten years old, we moved to Metro Detroit. I you know, my family immediate family still lives in Detroit. I'm back here. I was gone for probably about eight years, but I came back after grad school. and that's me. I pretty active in the Jewish community, pretty active in the civic community in the city of Detroit as well. Oliver Joseph: And no, listen, you also, when I thought of the word macha, I think of you, macha, I don't even know how macha translates in Yiddish and or Hebrew, but it means somebody does a lot in the community. You've always been somebody who's been very involved. You came to our community 20 years ago with loads of experience of Jewish life and Jewish organisational life and... with parents or certainly your mom growing up who was also a Maha and still is a Maha and I think I often quite well known in Detroit as somebody who does a lot for the community. Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. But my mom in very different ways. I mean, she's more kind of micro to her community, to the Russian speaking community for the most part. She's very active, yeah. Oliver Joseph: what does it mean to have made the states home? What does it mean right now? We pride ourselves in a really Jewish podcast, not talking politics too much. What does it mean to like be in the states right now at a time of kind of discontent and a lot of, I guess, really terrible stuff being spoken about. immigrant communities in some corners of the states. What Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. That's true. Oliver Joseph: does it mean growing up with coming from a Russian-speaking country and integrating into this place that is Detroit, which for most of our listeners will be quite foreign? People might know New York or California, Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah, so Detroit Oliver Joseph: but Detroit is a little bit out of the way for the average traveler to the states. Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah, well it shouldn't be. You should make a stop on your next visit to the US. Yeah. Oliver Joseph: I loved my trip to Detroit. I've had some good times in Detroit. Vadim Avshalumov: But we are in the Midwest. the i are Michigan looks like mitten for those of you who are on video, but if not, just look at your hand and it's a mitten. We are bordering on Canada. Yeah, we are on the northern border of the US, but in the Midwest. yeah, it's a good question. I mean I'll just You know, I have to acknowledge that I've been in the US for slightly more than thirty years now. So in many ways, in most ways, I'm quite integrated into you know, the country but also into our Jewish community in Metro Detroit. so like a lot of this is an exercise in memory and connecting to my youth. But there are still moments when I feel like an outsider. but you know, like I was thinking about it in preparation for today. You know, I remember moving to the States and we lived in apartments, flats, I guess you call And it took me a while to kind of r realize that like, wait a minute, we live in these apartments, but the rest of my classmates l live in these single family homes. And like, why is that? And you know, you kind of start adding the layers of like, well, 'cause we're new to the country, 'cause we don't have enough for a down payment. 'cause we haven't achieved the American dream, quote unquote, yet. and like, you know, there are moments, again, like, it takes a while for you to process who you are and be comfortable with it. But like there are I remember friends who were like asked where I live and I like would vaguely describe it, but I maybe I was embarrassed to kind of admit that we lived in apartments. And at those moments you feel like an outsider. Or maybe there were times where I was embarrassed to speak to my parents or my grandparents in Russian. but, you know, as I got older and more mature, I think it's something that I became quite proud of, my unique background and heritage. and now it's something that I by and large celebrate. Oliver Joseph: There are lots of Jews who arrived in the States and Europe by way of Israel including my wife's parents who made it to Israel and then to India I think Baghdad and then to Israel and then back to India I think that's right but I might have that the wrong way around. Tell us a little bit about the Kafkazi community and how you specifically made it to of Detroit, like why there and what happened in Israel that made the family move on. Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah, sure. So You know, I think most people realize that about a million, maybe maybe even upwards of two million Soviet Jews, probably two million Soviet Jews moved out of the the Soviet Union or any of the republics in a in a period of maybe twenty years, let's say. in Azerbaijan. so what happened was my dad's family had all decided to move to Israel. By and large, my mom's family by and large decided to move to North America, with some exceptions. I think there's some that are in Israel, some that are in Germany, but by and large, to to America. And so we my immediate family went with my dad's side to Israel. We lived with my aunt to Tamira. Shout out to Tamira if she's listening to this podcast, which she's definitely not. And so we were there. I mean I was a pretty, you know, naive six year old, pretty happy there, going to the beach every Shabbat, having my cousins as my kind of nuclear group of friends. And but it was hard. I mean it was looking back very hard for my parents economically. I mean I think they were very happy to be in, you know, Israel, but economically it was just very hard. Both my parents have college degrees, my dad's an engineer, my mom's in finance accounting and they could not get anything close to you know, jobs in their professions. I you know, Israel has made a lot of progress progress economically, but this is nineteen ninety one. diff really a different country in many ways. And so a few years go by and my parents decided to try it to give it a go in the US and kind of reunite with my two maternal aunts, my maternal grandparents who were living in Metro, Detroit. The reason they were here is because and most of them had gotten refugee status to the States. my great uncle had moved here in the eighties and there's like a whole Something somebody in the seventies the Soviet border kind of opened up for a year and somebody in his family was able to escape, came to Detroit, and there's like a domino effect of like a whole immigrant community from Azerbaijan, Kafka or Gorsky Mountain you know, Kafkazi mountain Jews in Detroit. So that is in essence what happened. Oliver Joseph: So I mean, I love your story and I also happen to love your parents and the brief time that I spent with them, the hospitality they've shown me and you know, raising some good children from that story of new arrival to the States, which I know is a very American story. does that story like feel any different? telling that story now today to me or telling that story to the people that you come across in the States in like a Trump era or do you feel untouched or unscathed by that kind of new quality to perhaps what immigration or on your arrival to a place looks like now in 2026. Does the story change or Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: the story feel the same? Vadim Avshalumov: yeah, I mean I try to be true to who I am in my story so I don't tone it down or sugarcoat it in audiences Yeah, I mean, I felt it I have felt it a little bit. Like I used to kind of feel like, you know, the the whole immigrant story was the story of America and that was just, you know, accepted by the totality of America and I've kind of become less naive and see maybe the other view now, kind of the backlash to immigration and people feeling I don't know insecure about their own economic positions and all of that. I don't know, you know, I think one of the things that I've really developed is probably because of my experiences, is, you know, a real strong empathy towards others' experiences. You know, I see myself in their shoes. I see, you know, what happened to my family thirty years ago, the need to kind of rely on the immigrant kind of the network of other families and other social services to kind of make it eventually. And I see it in other communities now, not necessarily the Azerbaijani Jewish community or the Russian speaking community, but families and communities from all over the world now. and I try to empathize with them. but yeah, I will acknowledge that Yeah, it's not maybe it was never so simple and I was just young and naive, but it's not so simple right now. Oliver Joseph: No, listen, I also relate to the story. In Torah we say that we were slaves in the land of Egypt, so we should take care of the... We shouldn't oppress or cause hardship upon the stranger. That's one of the core, often mentioned aspects of our Torah, is that we should... intrinsically, not specifically from our own traveled experience, perhaps all the more so from our own traveled experience. You know, in this country and in the States, very, very few families, including mine, are more than one or two generations away from some kind of immigrant status of arriving from somewhere. My family happens to be slightly exceptional that on my dad's side, we've been sat put in the UK for about two or 300 years, but certainly my mom's side. Vadim Avshalumov: wow, I didn't know that. Oliver Joseph: Yeah, certainly on my mum's side, they've been probably in the 1890s like early turn of the century they arrived from Russia so anyway yeah yeah yeah Vadim Avshalumov: You've been so you've been in the UK for a long time. I mean there's very few Jews in America who have been in America for that long. Very few. I mean the biggest immigrations would be nineteen tens, nineteen twenties maybe. Yeah. Oliver Joseph: right right no that yeah yeah yeah yeah so that is an aspect of a kind of common core Vadim Avshalumov: I think I told you that my grandfather passed away about a year ago. and his name was Shalmur Shuomo Shuomo Chaimov. He was almost ninety years old. He lived a a good long life. I mean he was one of those people that was he had emigrated to the States before us, but like his heart was always in Azerbaijan and he grew up in like in the mountains in Kuba in this essentially this Kafkazi Shtetl, if you will. just an all Jewish mountain village. Anyway, you know, we have in the Kafkazi community, like this tradition of like having a brachul, like like a blessing meal on the celebration of their anniversary. We go to the cemetery, we say some prayers, and we come back and we have a big kind of festive meal and remember the person. And you know the vast majority of people there, it's probably about a hundred people, the vast majority of them are immigrants, you know, Kafka immigrants. And it just struck me how much just this group of a hundred people is contributing to America. you know, you have lawyers, doctors, forklift drivers, nurses, midwives, you know, lowly people working in urban planning and philanthropy like me. And you know, and also all both political parties, and I would say probably my family leans conservative, depending on the generation, but You know, what a blessing you know, he and his disciples have been to America and I think it's so axiomatic to me and I think you know part of what intrigues me about like going on the air and talk on the airwaves or whatever this is and talking to you and others is to this like this feeling that that story needs to be told and communicated now. for people to kind of fully appreciate and sympathize with what it actually means to be an immigrant in America and the benefits of it. Oliver Joseph: Yeah, listen, mean, part of the part of this project, which is now six months in, I think we're on our twenty second episode that we're recording now with you. is about saying some of the stuff out loud that maybe is otherwise more softly spoken. think I'm definitely, this is kind of slightly back from the story of like Jewish migration, but I'm definitely somebody who has spoken in quite tones in recent times about my own Jewish identity and thought to what, when I first started as a rabbi I was very, I was very, reticent to tell anybody as a rabbi and then mid career like five years in six years in I would tell anybody who would listen and then after October 7th I've kind of in some in some corners of the world become a lot quieter now that my job is largely public facing so I don't have that much choice to kind of keep the story quiet but you know when you're traveling parts of London parts the UK parts of Europe I certainly am more careful but in exactly that description Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. That's less possible when your name is Vadim of Shalumov. Yeah. But yeah. Oliver Joseph: Of Yeah, of course. Yeah, I get it. But all the more so to tell the story. Like you say, and all the more so to learn some of the deeper lessons of perhaps what I mean exactly describe what your community and some of our immigrant communities both in the UK and in the US have bought. What's the what's the what's the heartbreak like tell us just two words before we before perhaps we get to a little bit of torelating like what's the what's the image of those villages in the Kafkazi mountains and the Caucasus mountains that you have or the stories that you've been told that made that place special? Like what's that? What's the of was it Shlomo your grandfather? A blessed memory? Like what kept him going in terms of the memories that he held? Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. I mean and I don't know. I mean I don't know how much of it was how much of it is heartbreak versus just nostalgia. you know, I th look I th I think part of it is it was very much a geographically centered community for a long time, for at least two, three hundred years. First that you were in in Kuba, which is the like the village, and then for several generations you were in the city, in Baku. And so like everybody hung out with each other, everybody knew each other. And now we're a diaspora community. I mean, I think that's probably the crux of it. And Still, I mean I think there's I think part of the Part of the heartbreak, I guess, if you will, is You know, I I've been talking about my Shloma, my grandfather, I can talk about my other my paternal grandfather, Mordechai, who remembers going to Jewish schools. I mean he's no longer alive, but he remembered going to Jewish schools until they were closed. I think in the thirties, if I'm not mistaken. And like the heartbreak is like a lot of the some of the traditions have held on like Pesach, wedding rituals, death rituals, things like that. But in terms of like Jewish literacy, I mean you had a period of essentially sixty years without any ability to teach your kids to be Jewishly knowledgeable. And that is a heartbreak. And I you know, I think also it didn't end so well. I mean I think there's a period in Azerbaijan and I'm sure in all the Soviet republics of like nationalism of first of all there was a civil war in Azerbaijan and by and large Armenians were targeted in Azerbaijan but to a lesser extent Jews were targeted as well and and it really didn't end well in ways that really affected my family. But yeah, but also I mean look you have to the flip side of the coin is I mean how amazing is it that thirty years later, which is the blinking of an eye when you look back kind of in the arc of history, we are living and by and large doing well economically, well adjusted in the most prosperous you know, well you and I can argue about this, but the most prosperous place in the world. I mean it's a it's really a miracle in that regard. Oliver Joseph: So, no, listen, it's touching to hear about the arc, both the difficulties and the struggles and the journeys of the grandparents and the parents made. I wonder you, one of the questions that I ask is about kind of a text that inspires or something from a Jewish tradition Vadim Avshalumov: Well Maybe a couple more thoughts just kind of turn of events, you know, like again, my grandfather, you know, Stalin basically closed all religious schools, including all Jewish schools, and then fast forward to, you know, nineteen ninety five, nineteen ninety four, whatever. And my brother and I and you know go into Jewish day schools in America. It's like a miracle. most synagogues were closed in Azerbaijan. I think there was like one or two token synagogues left in Baku. so like there's this you know push against organized religion and yet, you know, fast forward to twenty twenty or so, I am Oliver Joseph: You're running the frickin' synagogue! Vadim Avshalumov: right. Well not running, but helping with a renovation a major renovation of a synagogue in downtown Detroit. So like it's just it's the kind of the the parallels of that or the shifts the historical shifts in what is it, three generations i is pretty incredible. Oliver Joseph: No, and the type of Jewish education that you ultimately go is phenomenal. mean, Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: many people in the UK, which is a relatively civilized country, depending on who you ask, would cherish after, would hollish after the kind of education that you were offered in Detroit. Vadim Avshalumov: It's amazing. Oliver Joseph: as you say in American English, Jewish day school education. telling when you came to the UK when I was in my when we both in our early 20s I saw you and thought this is a guy who knows something about Jewish life in a way that I didn't at the time gone you wanted to share one more thought or are we moving on Vadim Avshalumov: Well look, I mean, I think we one of the themes here is like insider outsider. and we talked about my how I feel in the context of the larger American society, but maybe just to share a thought or two on how I feel within the Jewish community. and by and large, you know, I feel like integrated part of really kind of the leadership of my Jewish community. And I love it here. Our kids go to the Jewish day schools. I'm on the board of my synagogue. My wife teaches at a Jewish day school. you know I go to synagogues, you know, Friday n usually Shabbat morning and I love hearing the prayers, the songs, the tunes in a way that I'm like nostalg it's like nostalgic, like, you know, this is what it's been like for the last thirty years. So in many ways I feel like an insider, but there are some instances where I still kind of feel like an outsider. I mean I think one of the things is kind of this the wealth disparities. It's something that I'm I've always been very attuned to, you know, since we moved here with very little means. But you know, like this whole notion of like pathing passing wealth from one generation to the next, I think We're on the first layer of that. Like my wife and I, my brother and I are like now doing that so that our kids can have some of those benefits going down. I think we're several generations behind the majority of the Jewish community here in Detroit, certainly. And that's something that's kind of top of mind in terms of you know what c what we can allow ourselves to do and not do. and I also think And I think, you know, things have changed since ten seven. but I think by and large American Jewelry was pretty clueless about the vulnerability with which in which we're living. I mean I th I think there was this belief that we're in this golden age of economic, social, religious integration into American society and that's just that's just the way it is from here to eternity. And I think with my family's history and with the history of anti-Semitism in in the Soviet Union, I I never felt that kind of sense of security. So I think you know, that's brought on and obviously Israel rescued my family and, you know, the majority of my family still lives in Israel and kind of understanding the need for the state of Israel, understanding this like combination of privilege and vulnerability and how it could coexist, I think that a lot of American jewelry is catching up with that now. Only now. Oliver Joseph: Yeah. Listen, I wanted to bring up the podcast to talk about this inside outside of conundrum. But I also like the part of the negotiation between us amongst close friends because we know each other pretty well. I'm confident I'm not going to offend you to the point that we're that we're not going to be friends anymore. But I also didn't want to I didn't want to impose that on you. But my curiosity with your story, which I've always been fascinated, we've had some really great conversations over the years. Vadim Avshalumov: Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: is always in part always about that aspect because you are somebody steeped in Jewish community or somebody connected to Jewish community somebody Vadim Avshalumov: Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: who like has like a dripping dripping in macha like dripping in somebody who like is really loves community and contributes to community Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: and and yada yada yada like like you say benefited from from that Jewish community with within Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah, but what's the butts? I I'm waiting for the but. Oliver Joseph: know the but is that you have that we both come to a degree or another in a European context and in US context from Ashkenormative communities like the Russian Eastern European shtick is the norm inside our communities. When you have a story like coming from Azerbaijan, or coming from certain Vadim Avshalumov: Yes. Yes. Oliver Joseph: corners of the Soviet Union, that makes you exotic that makes you different that make you know Even the year that you came to the States is slightly different alternative to the years that many, you're a few generations behind, though most of people, 100 years behind, most of the people came with Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah, I'm a hundred years behind most of most of my friends, yeah. Oliver Joseph: speaking Russian in, like you said, in the 1910s Vadim Avshalumov: yes. Oliver Joseph: and the 1920s and before. So there's a curiosity to that. And how do you fold in to that community of which we also have lots of people with similar stories to you in the UK, but they are also slightly on the outside, as you described of Jewish community, because it's not the regular pathway of Jewish immigration to Europe that's so many in a slightly cookie cutter way have followed. So that's the bit I've been interested in, in terms of this story, and the part of story that I wanted to tell now, because it's also nice, I think, when we pull at the edges of the Jewish community and see what's there, and tell a story like yours. learned something as well as I feel like you have today. I wanted to draw you on like a word or a moment of inspiration from our tradition that connects this topic and otherwise I'm going to continue to let you tell your story. Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. do I share I told you I have two. Do you is there do you have a preference? Okay. Oliver Joseph: No, you go man. You do you. As they say in your tradition, you do you. Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: very American, know, care of yourself. That's like the American dream. Vadim Avshalumov: Well, look, I mean I always the quote is like Lo Alecha Hamlachaligmur. velo w help me out, Ali. Veloata. Thank you. Right, so sure. Oliver Joseph: You have to translate to that. Vadim Avshalumov: It's not your duty to finish the work, but neither are you free to kind of neglect from it entirely. And it really speaks to me because I'm the type of person that at first is like so daunted by the scale of the problem that I basically just I my initial instinct is to kind of shy away from it instinctively. and I just like this verse because it basically acknowledges that like it's not your responsibility to finish it. Like you're not in all likelihood going to. But that doesn't mean that you should neglect to do anything at all. Like take a step, take two steps, have a podcast conversation, talk to friends, be kind to others, start a synagogue, whatever it is, like, you know, run for office. There's a whole gamut of things you you can do. and you have to determine a course of action, but you're not allowed to totally neglect the issue. So that's something that I kind of use to push myself. Oliver Joseph: what does it mean for your family in terms of like, you said, your privilege and also the story that you come from? I mean, I like it. I'm always frozen. I thought about this. Yeah, in the context of our conversation. Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah, in the context of this you mean in our conversation, in the context of this conversation. Oliver Joseph: Yeah. Vadim Avshalumov: I think it has so many so many paths kind of of relevance. I I think you could talk about the first thing we talked about is like how immigrants are perceived or misperceived right now in America and like that is a big macro level issue. and you can just say like that I'm gonna be apolitical, I'm not gonna stick my head in this one. Or you can do certain things. you can, you know, whatever, set a course, like do something within your circle or get outside your circle and push for a different viewpoint. That's certainly one. and I mean to your point about like this Ashkina normative Jewish communities, which is absolutely true. It's a it is an issue. I think there are ways to push beyond that. I think most Jews understand that there are, you know, Iranian Jews, Moroccan Jews, Ethiopian Jews, and so to kind of tell those stories more, to kind of raise those voices more. Also to I don't know if most people realize that. there were is a prominent Jewish community from you know the Caucasus mountain range of Azerbaijan and to tell that story I think is very valuable in showing the diversity of the Jewish population. Oliver Joseph: Hmm. No, and I also think of I mean, I love this. I love the aspect of storytelling. And also, I think to tell the experience of the diversity of the Jewish experience. And it's sad that the conclusion in 2026 is that people who have experienced anti semitism in a direct way, with their descendants from parts of the Middle East or defendant descendants from parts of Soviet Russia. could have told you that the comfort that many Jewish communities have felt, whether it's in Israel or Europe or the States, was unwarranted or was misguided. Vadim Avshalumov: Yes. Oliver Joseph: That feels very stark. That feels like both hard to hear but also important to hear. I don't know, also just inspired by the... grandparents journey and the get up and go of your story and the I think you're very modest in the way you describe yourself like the contribution that you've made and your family's made to community is is big and ultimately the same loop that we are we've always been immigrant communities and some of that couple of generations on feels bit more distant and we in some quarters of our community are happy to, maybe not happy to, but might have sympathy with some of the anti-immigrant sentiment that's whipping around North America and Europe. But we should be quickly reminded that is very much our story in every corner of our Jewish community experience. Counting Vadim Avshalumov: Absolutely. Oliver Joseph: one generation or two back is our experience and the kind of, you the description of the... Did you call it the bracha, the Vadim Avshalumov: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: blessing ceremony for the memory of your grandfather? It's a great image of like, look, these are the people who have contributed, who have set up, have come here and made a difference to this place. And I think we can all do that in all our various families of how much the Jewish community has contributed. our community is not unique in that making of contribution. and we should always acknowledge and show gratitude for some of those immigrant Vadim Avshalumov: Right. Oliver Joseph: communities that have come here and contributed. Vadim Avshalumov: I'll tell you something else. I as much as I worry about proliferating that story in the Jewish community and in the broader community, I really worry about it with my kids. Like I you know, not that they've shown me any reason to be concerned, but they're whatever, they're little kids, they don't you know, but are they gonna be able to relate, empathize with my immigrant experience with my parents, my grandparents, like are or are they just gonna be spoiled Western kids who have no ability, don't know hardship, can't relate to hardship in the same way. and so I think a lot about like how do I take them, you know, when is it safe to take them to Russia or Azerbaijan? when can I take them to Israel? What are the experiences that I can expose them to so they that they understand this, you know, in their viscerally really, that this is not, you know, 'cause I I do see a lot of my peers for whom it's like family lore more than anything else, that they're not able to authentically tap into their family's immigrant experience and that and I think that has real ramifications. yeah, I mean I don't know, my kids inspire me. They're just they're just sponges and they get so much joy from little things and everyday things. a good Friday night service inspires me. I'm actually organizing these like Friday night Kabulat Shabbat type services and I I get a lot of inspiration from that. I'm inspired by talented rabbis like yourself who are able to I don't know push you a little bit, support you a little bit. I do. I mean a good sermon, a good podcast can be very inspirational for me and push me to do more. I always thought that the Masorti community in the UK had just like an amazing batting average in terms of just really, really inspir inspiring and talented rabbis and that's when I was there and now they've added you. So that's a good a small sample size perhaps but but that's a handful of pretty inspiring rabbis just there. Oliver Joseph: Listen, I'm very grateful for your kind words. I'm very grateful for coming on our podcast. just, you've always been a person of such great warmth and kindness and connection with community, which I feel privileged to know. So thanks for coming and sharing a little bit of your story on Really Jewish and hope to speak to you very soon and only good. Thanks, Fadim. Vadim Avshalumov: Thanks, OJ. Oliver Joseph: So thank you for listening to Really Jewish. I hope you got something out of being here. We're delighted to have you along for this episode. Listen, I really like with him. He's a good guy. He tells a meaningful story and I was trying to, as we went along in the podcast, of stay super connected to the reason why we brought him on, but he does. come with a slightly unusual story, you know, a good proportion of the Jews where I live in London come from Russia, Ukraine, but largely broadly came in the, let's say 1900s, 20s, 30s, and some indeed post-war after the tragedy and travesty of the Holocaust. And then another smaller corner of the community come from Morocco and Tunisia and Iran and other places in the Middle East, like in parts of my family, my wife's family. But the story is often from a few generations back of immigration. And in that sense, Vadim's story is somewhat unusual in the Jewish community of more recent... arrival in his case to Detroit, Michigan. I've got some really fun memories of being in Detroit, including a beautiful summer's day. When I was there visiting him. And we went to one of the like motor parks because it's the motor city. And I have never in my life seen cars like this like all like on stilts and like bouncing and driving like ridiculous speeds and doing like twirly whirlies in the car park. That's little bit of my experience of the Motor City, a place where some of America's car industry was born. But more interestingly, like that, I just really enjoyed hearing a little bit of Vadim's kind of intimate reflection on some of the aspects of identity and how identity also shifts as some of the political agenda and complexities of the world that we live in around anti-Semitism and arise. in leftist and rightist hatred, both against this community and others, how perhaps aspects of our own identity and our own story are reshaped. And that was a cool conversation to with Vadim. I appreciated his kind of light touch in the way that he told his story and also his humility as somebody who is really it really is a maher in his community but where is it very likely at this time so thanks for listening to Really Jewish once again thank you to Oy Vavoy for our musical intro and musical outro you can listen to their single Back to My Roots available on stream platforms We're grateful to Sophia who's our producer, editor and doing great job there. You can like and share content from this episode on TikTok, Facebook and Instagram. We really appreciate sending these videos on. I can't tell you that most of the comments on any of those platforms are really not very nice. So if you want to send us something sweet or kind. On any those social media platforms, you're most welcome to drown out some of the noise We're building this project from the wheels up with six months in and Raring to go to the next stage if you want to support us financially on patreon or you have somebody who'd like to give us a thousand or ten thousand bucks towards making this podcast run You are very welcome to be in touch directly with me. I'm Joseph this is really Jewish thank you for listening