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Forgiving the Unforgivable: How a Mother Found Peace After Devastating Sandy Hook Loss · I Choose Me with Jennie Garth

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Welcome
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to I Choose Me. My guest today has experienced what
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: not one of us can imagine or fathom. Jennifer Hubbard
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: lost her daughter, Catherine, in a tragic shooting event in Newtown, Connecticut,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: one that will forever be a scar on our nation's history.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Though our systems failed her, and the 28 souls who
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: died that day. What has emerged is an incredible story
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: of forgiveness and finding peace. Please welcome Jennifer Hubbard. Thank
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: you so much for joining us.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, thank you.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Being so brave and talking about this and helping so
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: many people.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I hope. That's the prayer. And you know what?
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: If it's just one person, I'm good with that.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Yep, I know the feeling.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Let's just jump right in.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we all know about the tragedy at Sandy Hook
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Elementary School that took the sweet lives of 20 children
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: and in all eight adults. The details of the day,
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  Speaker 1: we do not need to rehash. I'm sure you do
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: not want to rehash either. So if you could just
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: please tell us a little bit about your sweet daughter, Catherine.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, sweet Catherine. She, she proved the, the, when everybody
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: says redheads are fiery and fierce and determined, she was
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: all of that. And then some more like she, the
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: thing about Catherine and she was six when she, when
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: she died. So like there was so much that was
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: going to continue to, to grow in her. But if
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: there was the, if the essence of her was, was,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: just fiercely passionate about animals. The first memories I have
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: of her are her scooting under the table. She couldn't
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: even walk. And she was scooting under the table so
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: that she could be nose to nose with Sammy, our
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: yellow lab. And she just, her heart was just fiercely
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: loving animals, but then loving people. Like she would go
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: to school every day and she would cry and just,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: it was like the alligator tears coming. She wanted to
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: be home. And then when she was home and she
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: was running around the yard, she just, she was just
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: a barrel of, of energy. And so there's so many
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: times where I find myself wondering, like as she would
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: be 20 now, what would she be as a 20-year-old
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  Speaker 2: just on fire, in love with animals?
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Do you allow yourself to envision what she would be like?
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I do. It's a tricky, it's a slippery slope because
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: she's not 20. She's not here. And so I know
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: for me personally, I could probably go down the rabbit
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: hole of She should be here and she should be
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: doing all of these things. And when I go down
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: that road, I realize that it's a slippery slope because
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I had her for six years and I don't want
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: to do anything that would minimize the love and The frustration.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: It's hard to bring a kid to school every single
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: day and have them crying. I don't want to go.
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  Speaker 1: I've had that. Yes, I understand. And then something terrible happens.
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  Speaker 1: The unimaginable happens.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine how that must have just been so
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: hard for you to reckon with. Yeah.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: You know, the thing about it is the morning that
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: I put her on the bus, to go to school.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: So I have, I have two, I have a, he's
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: now 22. But Freddie and Catherine got on the bus
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: on that morning. And she was so excited to go
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: to school. It was the first time when I tell
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: you it was the first time that she didn't cry.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: getting on the bus. She held my hand so tight
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: going down the, walking down the road. We lived at
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: the end of a cul-de-sac. And so we had to
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: walk down to the stop sign to get on the
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: bus and her hand, she'd hold it so tight. And
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  Speaker 2: I think she actually was like, oh, I, I don't want,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to go to school, but there was like,
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  Speaker 2: there was no, there was no tears because she had
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: gotten a new pair of boots and it's, she like
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: jingle belled all the way down the road because she
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: loved her boots. And I sent her off and she
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: had the most beautiful smile. She turned around, she ran
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: across the street and she turned around and she gave
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: me a wave. And I remember locking arms with my
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: neighbor who it just destroyed both of us when we
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: would when we'd watch the bus go off, knowing that
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  Speaker 2: she was sitting there with the tears coming down her face.
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  Speaker 2: We locked arms and we walked up back up to
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  Speaker 2: the house and Patty said, she's going to be fine.
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  Speaker 2: You know, the reality for me is that she is fine.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: you know, hours later, she would be gone. But my
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: belief is that she's where we're all aspiring to be.
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  Speaker 2: And so in so many ways, she's, she's in heaven. She's,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: she's protected. She's joyful. Like that brilliant smile is probably
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: 10 times more brilliant. I can't wait to see it.
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  Speaker 2: Hopefully someday, someday I can make my way to her.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: But To have that memory of her last moments on
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: earth with me is something that I treasure.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. In the days and the years since that
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: terrible day, December 2012, you have been on a mission.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Not of just recovery, but of love. Tell me how you...
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: began your journey to choose forgiveness?
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't, I don't necessarily think that I
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: made a conscious choice to, to walk down this road
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  Speaker 2: and call it the road of forgiveness. I, I took day,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I took it day by day. And so I still
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: had an eight, Freddie was eight. And so I still
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: had an eight year old. And life had, changed dramatically,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: but it also became very quiet. And so I had
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of time to sit and think. And what
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I realized in retrospect is that the habits that I
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: had formed before Catherine had died were the habits that
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I was clinging to after she died. And so mornings
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: for me, when the kids got on the bus would be,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: I'd come back to the house and I would spend
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: time praying and journaling and really centering myself. And I
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: found myself doing that for a lot longer spans of time.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And in those moments of just sitting and praying and
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: wrestling with God, what I've realized is this constant surrender
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: of what I thought my life would be like and
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: what I had in in honesty thought that I, I deserved,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I had, I was a good mom and I was
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: involved in, in their lives and I didn't deserve this.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: And I would find myself journaling and, and rest and
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: wrestling with those feelings of entitlement. I it's, I, it's
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  Speaker 2: such an ugly word. And, and I think anybody thinking
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: about it would be like, Oh my God, like you lost,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: you lost your child, like of, of course you're due
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: these things. But what I realized as I started moving
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: through this new normal of ours is that if I
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: was speaking to people, the single most asked question that
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I was offered was, do you forgive your daughter's shooter?
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  Speaker 2: And it was a very easy yes for me. I
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: don't know how it just was like, Yes, of course,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: because I hadn't given Adam much thought.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Adam was the shooter.
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  Speaker 2: Adam's the shooter. And people would say to me, aren't
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: you furious at his mother? And I wasn't. What struck
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: me is that she made choices that cost her her
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: own life. she, she was lost on that day as well,
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  Speaker 2: but there was never this ill will of feeling like
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  Speaker 2: I'm do something from Adam or something from Nancy, his mother.
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  Speaker 2: It was more of I'm, I'm do these certain things
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  Speaker 2: because I was, I, I was good and I was
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: faithful and I gave up a career to raise my kids.
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  Speaker 2: And so all of these things that I was wrestling
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  Speaker 2: with my own heart, um, is what I was thinking about.
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  Speaker 2: So when people would say, you know do you forgive
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  Speaker 2: the shooter of course I forgive the shooter and and
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: people would give me this look of like hmm interesting
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: and I'm sure that there was skepticism and curiosity and
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  Speaker 2: this moment of okay I don't even there's no follow-up
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  Speaker 2: for that question because it was just a cut and
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: dry yeah uh And there was one evening I was
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: speaking at a business dinner and the routine was always
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: the same. It was 45 minutes of a conversation about
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: how I found my footing after Catherine died and then
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Q & A. And it was always, how's your son?
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Tell me about your husband. I'm since divorced. So there's
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: fallout after the fallout, after fallout, after fallout. Um, and
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  Speaker 2: then there would always be the forgiveness question and there'd
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: be this awkward silence. And then there would be like
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  Speaker 2: a question that would just try to cut the air. Like, well,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: tell us about the sanctuary or tell us about Catherine.
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  Speaker 2: So this one night, this woman stopped me as I
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: was leaving. Um, and she was standing in the threshold
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  Speaker 2: of the whole of this hallway. And she said, um,
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  Speaker 2: I get it. Like you forgive, you forgive the shooter.
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  Speaker 2: And be like Catherine alligator tears. And she said, but how? How? How? How?
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  Speaker 2: How do you get to this point? And I didn't
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: have an answer for her. I didn't have an answer.
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  Speaker 2: I said, I, I don't, I don't know. I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: And her face, it was this moment of just truth. Like, wow.
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  Speaker 2: She doesn't know how she... And it got me thinking about, well,
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  Speaker 2: how does this get explained? How do I explain how
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: I forgive? And so the journey was really on how
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  Speaker 2: did I come to this place? And maybe it's not forgiveness,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: but more of... peace, of reconciliation with my own heart,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: of not being due something because a tragedy happened. And
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  Speaker 2: I think that the conclusion I came to in writing
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: this book and really thinking about my own journey was
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: that we in general, I think, have forgiven us all wrong.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: There's a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation and accountability. And
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: I think that we bundle them all together and call
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: it forgiveness. And so when you don't have someone accept
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the accountability, how do you offer someone forgiveness? Adam will
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: never be held accountable for the lives that he took.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that I can't forgive him or come
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  Speaker 2: to a place of forgiveness.
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  Speaker 1: Did you feel that the forgiveness had to happen for
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  Speaker 1: you to be able to find your peace?
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Yes. But they were all internal. They weren't dependent on him. And,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: you know, even... Because I think that my tragedy in
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  Speaker 2: losing Catherine in such a violent manner is sort of
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: out there in the world. It's off. People can't like, what?
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  Speaker 1: Yes, it's unimaginable until you experience it.
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  Speaker 2: Right. But I also think that there's this question of
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: forgiveness for the egregious acts that affect all of our lives.
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  Speaker 2: It's abuse and neglect and divorce and friendships lost and broken.
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  Speaker 2: And all of those, I believe, follow the same pattern
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: of coming to a place of forgiveness. And I believe
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: for me and for most of us that can say
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: with a certainty, like I live in this place of forgiveness,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: it's coming back. to the coming to the realization that
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: it has nothing, forgiveness has nothing to do with the
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: other person. It has nothing. Nothing. And even when they
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: do offer you the apology or they go and they
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: pay their penalty, they end up in jail or whatever
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: it might be. They pay the retribution, anything. It doesn't
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: change the fact that our hearts are still broken. Right.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: they're all important. And I'm not saying that, that for
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: that egregious acts shouldn't, you shouldn't be held accountable and
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: there shouldn't be some sense of retribution, but it's totally different.
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  Speaker 2: I think that when we can come to a place
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: and when I came to a place of realizing that Catherine,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Catherine was gone and it, it hurt me to realize
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: that I didn't have a daughter anymore. And I loved
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: having a baby girl. I loved it. And it was
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: going to be different with Catherine than it was for me.
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  Speaker 2: And that was gone. Right. And when I could surrender
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: the expectation that that was going to be my life. Right.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I realized that what I was allowing to root in
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: my heart made space for other things. Right.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's a difference between surrender and acceptance?
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Yes. Mm-hmm. I think that they are. I think that
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: when we just accept about this terrible thing happened to me. Yeah.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I think that we're not doing ourselves justice. I don't
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: think that we're paying homage to our hearts. And I
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: think that we missed the point. And for me, that
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: point is trusting in my faith that There's a God
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and he loves me and he wants the best for me.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: And that out of the depths of ashes, beauty will emerge.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: It's like the forest fires. They go through and it's
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: just black, charred, nothing. But the forests that emerge out
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: of that darkness are beautiful and magnificent.
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  Speaker 1: It's so hard to even imagine when you're going through it.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: You know, you said before about, it made me think
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: about peace, that we're all just looking for peace.
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  Speaker 2: That's it.
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  Speaker 1: And this is exactly why you wrote the book, to
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: help other people figure out how to find peace after
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: such a tragedy or any kind of tragedy or loss
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: in their own lives. Tell me about your book a
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: little bit.
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  Speaker 2: So the book really is my journey in Reflections. to
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: how I came to this understanding that forgiveness is an
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: introspective process. And that my hope is that as someone's
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: sitting down with the book, that they realize that it's
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: not a cut and dry process and it could be
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: a lifetime. I truly believe that so many people are
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: just so hard on themselves when they think, I can't forgive.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: And that makes me a bad person. Right.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: It makes them feel ugly about themselves.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm not saying that it's
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: like neat and tidy. I had to really wrestle with
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: myself and realize that there were so many expectations that
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I was holding this world accountable to that weren't necessarily
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: true or right.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Or yours to carry.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly because I don't think that in the tragedies that
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I've dealt with in my life and I'll use one
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  Speaker 2: that's common to everybody in divorce I think that there
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  Speaker 2: are so many things that break us that we think
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  Speaker 2: they're ours to carry for the rest of our lives
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: and they were never meant for us to carry in
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: the first place They were never meant to be ours.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And I think that in a process of forgiveness, we
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: go through this self-evaluation. And in writing the book, my
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: hope was to make the point that there is no
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: hierarchy to forgiveness. A broken heart is a broken heart.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: And it's where forgiveness has to start. Right.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: That reminds me of something you say in the book.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: You say that sizing up our suffering to yours is
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: not necessary. So when people hear about your suffering, we
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: don't need to size up our own suffering.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Explain that to me. I think it's a tragedy when
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: we do. I think that when we size up our
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: suffering to anybody's especially to mine, and when I size
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: up mine to someone, there were families who lost, who
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: later went on to lose other family members. And there
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: were some family members where it was their only child
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: that they were lost, that was lost. There have been
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: some families who they lost their child and went on
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: to battle horrific illnesses. When I size up my loss
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: to their loss, or when someone who thinks that their
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: tragedy is less than mine, I think that in that moment...
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: we diminish who we are as people, because I truly
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: believe that hurt is hurt. And that in the midst
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: of that suffering, there's something sacred that's going on. Whether
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: it's a reconciliation to a faith, or it's a belief
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: in the universe that it is good. And that there
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: is something that will come out of this when I
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: believe that when we start sizing up, my suffering's not
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: as much as that one. So mine doesn't matter. Yeah.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: We're neglecting our own hearts. Right. It doesn't matter. When
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: you break your arm, it hurts. And if you broke
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: your arm and I broke my arm, we both say,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: it sucks. It hurts. Our hearts, when they're broken, they hurt.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: And all of this world of suffering... We all hurt.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: And I think that when we try to say mine
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: doesn't hurt, we dishonor ourselves. Right.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: There's no comparison. There's no equating it. It just is
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: what it is.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. When we get into a, this is a terrible,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: terrible word, but when we get into a pissing match
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: of who's hurt is worse. Right. We lose the point.
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  Speaker 1: We lose the point. We no longer can have compassion
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: for the other person. We no longer are taking care
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: of ourselves.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now all of a sudden you're stuffing it. You're
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: stuffing it like, oh, mine's not bad because yours is worse.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: It breaks my heart when people say, well, you know what?
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: It doesn't compare. No, it doesn't.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: It's such a great practice to not compare no matter
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: what it is in your life, whether it is your
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: suffering or it is your blessings. Or your success or
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: your lack of success. There's no comparison. And I think
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: we're just so pre-wired, especially in this day and age,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: to compare. Yeah. I heard someone say once, compare despair. Yeah.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: And it's true.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I think we all have our own, we have, we
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: all have our own journey and we all have the,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: when I think about Catherine and her class, I feel
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: like we all have this beautiful purpose to serve. And
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: this was part of my journey and coming to this
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: place of forgiveness, of understanding at the heart of who
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: I am, that I was put on this earth for
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: purpose and, And that purpose was for good. There is
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: something that I hope I'm doing it. I really hope
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I'm on the right path. But that if we can
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: all serve that purpose, we make the world collectively better.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: And part of that journey is this pruning and this
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: going through these moments of darkness that we can grow
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: and be stretched so that we can be all that
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: much more purposeful in our lives. I think about Catherine's class.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And one of them, one of her classmates was a
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: dancer and another an artist. And one kid wanted to
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: go play professional football. And they all believed in their
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: hearts that that's what they were going to do. And Catherine,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: she was the animal welfare girl. So she was going
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: to take care of all the animals. And who's to
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: know if If the dancer would be in the New
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: York Ballet or the artist was showing at the Met,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: maybe not. But I truly believe that at six, that
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: passion that was tucked in their heart was what was
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: going to bloom and blossom. And so whether Catherine would
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: have been a vet or not, an animal advocate, there
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: would have been animals in her life, without a doubt.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, you took her love of animals and her
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: advocacy for animals and made something very important, but also
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: very important to you now. Can you tell us a
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: little bit about what you've done with the foundation, the
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Katherine Violet Hubbard Animal Sanctuary?
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's pretty incredible. It's so funny because there's
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: so many days where I know that Catherine is... moving
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: things around. So there are some days where I wonder
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: if I actually have a choice. Because there are times
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: where I'm like, I'm done. I'm out. I'm just going
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: to go write. I just want to go write books.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And then something will happen. And here I am. It's
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: another five years. The sanctuary was born out of a
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: typographical error in her obituary. We had thought that donations
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: were going to the animal control center, which was her,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: her place, her go-to. Um, and it was this amazing
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: group of, of women. It was the animal center is
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: where donations in her memory went, um, and a lot
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: in a very short period of time. And so we
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: decided with those funds that we would create the Catherine
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Violet Hubbard animal sanctuary as a place where, uh, people
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: would see their own innate beauty in the animals that
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: they cared for. And so the work that we do
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: there is really because Catherine, she just wanted to save
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: them all and that in our care that they'll be safe.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: And so we're a little bit unique in the sense
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: that we keep animals in homes with people. We work
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: with older adults. We educate kids. on and well all
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: ages we educate them how to see the beauty in
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: the animals that might even be in their backyard and
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: that they share this world with and teach them how
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: to care for them and we we have a huge
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: conservation effort at the sanctuary and so all along the
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: way we've we've just done things a little bit a
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: little bit differently than a traditional animal sanctuary but have
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: been in Incredibly successful. And just this past year, we
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: were the nonprofit of the year from the American business.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: And we received the designation as one of the most
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: compassionate animal sanctuaries. And to me, that one. Yeah. That's Catherine.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: That's Catherine all over it.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: That gives me chills and all the feels because you are,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: you know, you are doing exactly what she does.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Wanted, you know, and I love it because when we
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: go and we're working with some of the seniors that
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: were helping keep their pets, they will hold on to
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: their animals so tight. And Catherine, when she gave you
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: a hug, like it was she she wouldn't let go.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: And I'll see her. It's her hugging these animals. And
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: we have kids come from classrooms. And I have said
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: probably more times than people want to hear. if it's
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: not Catherine in some of those kids' faces, just the
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: wonder and awe of understanding that insects, these bugs that
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: when they arrived, they were squeamish and yelling about, all
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: of a sudden they're holding them and they're in awe
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: of them. And there's Catherine. And even just in the
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: sanctuary itself that, There are mornings where I will go
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: sit up there and there'll just be this beautiful breeze.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: And it's as if Catherine is laying beside me. And
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I think, well, there you are. There you are.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, man, like to be able to connect with her
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: like that, just by going to the sanctuary and feeling
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: her presence. It's a gift to animals, of course, but
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: a real gift to you.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, I think all the more important
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: because I've often wondered if I didn't come to this
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: place of peace, like if I wasn't in a place
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: where I could see it and really appreciate it, would
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I see Catherine? And I feel like that's why it's
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: all the more important for people to understand that Forgiveness
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: is not complicated. It's not. And when we can wrap
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: our heads around that we're giving ourselves a gift, we're
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: not letting anyone off the hook. Nope. We're giving ourselves
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: permission to grow and feel peace. And instead of being
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: so focused on on the anger and the hurt and
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: what we didn't get. I don't know if I would
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: have seen all of the beauty and the gentleness that's
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: at the sanctuary. I don't think I would have. And
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: that would be a tragedy.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer Hubbard, for opening your heart to me
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and sharing about your beautiful Catherine. We will continue this
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: conversation soon. In the meantime, grab her book, Forgiving the Unforgivable.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Available anywhere books are sold. Be gentle with yourselves.