Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Crypto and Celeb Endorsements Explained By Attorney Ron Geffner

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Crypto and Celeb Endorsements Explained By Attorney Ron Geffner · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Hey there, everybody.
0:59
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yucatel. So
1:02
Speaker 1: today we have a really riveting conversation with my guest,
1:05
Speaker 1: Ron Geffner, a prominent attorney and seasoned veteran of the
1:09
Speaker 1: Securities and Exchange Commission. We get to take a peek
1:12
Speaker 1: into the SEC, what red flags they look out for,
1:15
Speaker 1: and what he thinks of the latest case against Sam
1:17
Speaker 1: Bankman Freed. I don't know if you guys are like me,
1:20
Speaker 1: but when people talk about crypto, I sort of feel
1:22
Speaker 1: like they're talking about monopoly money. Ron breaks down crypto
1:26
Speaker 1: and gives us his perspective on this tricky world of
1:28
Speaker 1: virtual currency. We also delve into why celebrities like Kim Kardashian,
1:32
Speaker 1: Floyd Mayweather, and a lot of others have gotten into
1:35
Speaker 1: legal troubles for being so outspoken on the trend. We
1:38
Speaker 1: talk about navigating the current political climate, economic concerns, and
1:42
Speaker 1: finding out what your risk tolerance is when investing. I
1:46
Speaker 1: learned a lot and I think you guys will too.
1:48
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Ron Geffner. Ron, thank you so
2:22
Speaker 1: much for joining me at Misunderstood. It's such a pleasure
2:24
Speaker 1: to have you here.
2:26
Speaker 2: Such a pleasure to be here. I feel like the
2:27
Speaker 2: name of your show sort of describes my life.
2:30
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like.
2:31
Speaker 2: Mr. Understood. Mr. Understood. Yes, right.
2:33
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I feel like it would
2:34
Speaker 1: be better to have a Mr., but yes, I think
2:36
Speaker 1: it's a good name and I'm very proud of it.
2:38
Speaker 1: I think being misunderstood is a universal concept that most
2:42
Speaker 1: people can understand. And so, so far this has worked
2:47
Speaker 1: out for most people because they do feel like they
2:49
Speaker 1: have something to talk about, right?
2:51
Speaker 2: It's a relatable title. Yeah. Yeah.
2:53
Speaker 1: Thank you.
2:54
Speaker 2: All right.
2:54
Speaker 1: So where are you? You're in New York.
2:56
Speaker 2: I happen to be sitting in my office in New York.
2:59
Speaker 1: Okay. I love that. I'm down in Florida and I
3:01
Speaker 1: love when people can be with me from all over
3:04
Speaker 1: the place. So welcome.
3:05
Speaker 3: All right.
3:06
Speaker 1: First, I want to get in for our listeners to
3:09
Speaker 1: describe who you are and where you came from. So
3:11
Speaker 1: will you give us a little bit of your background
3:13
Speaker 1: and how you got into law to begin with?
3:15
Speaker 2: Sure. I am a first generation American. My father was
3:18
Speaker 2: born in Vienna. During the Holocaust, right after Kristallnacht, his
3:22
Speaker 2: parents put him on a boat to Palestine at the
3:24
Speaker 2: age of 12 with a suitcase. And my father fought
3:27
Speaker 2: with his early underground, the Haganah. And my mother, brother,
3:30
Speaker 2: and sister were born in Israel. And this ties into
3:32
Speaker 2: my career and who I am as a person. Parents
3:35
Speaker 2: came to the U.S. I was born here. I'm the
3:36
Speaker 2: youngest by 13 years, same parents. I was always told
3:40
Speaker 2: that I spoke well. It probably did not hurt that
3:43
Speaker 2: I had siblings 13 and 15 years older.
3:44
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
3:46
Speaker 2: Parents offered to pay for an education. How can I
3:48
Speaker 2: turn down a free education? And I found I actually
3:50
Speaker 2: really liked it. And I started my career at the SEC,
3:56
Speaker 2: Securities and Exchange Commission. There were six of us, as
3:59
Speaker 2: I understood, hired out of an applicant pool of 2,000 people.
4:03
Speaker 2: And I was put into a group that prosecuted asset managers.
4:07
Speaker 2: It was called 40 Act. This was pre-Madoff before it
4:10
Speaker 2: was getting the attention it's gotten since Madoff. Right. Right.
4:14
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's how a lot of people
4:17
Speaker 1: have started to, I mean, that story became very mainstream
4:20
Speaker 1: in a way that I feel like it became entertainment news,
4:22
Speaker 1: not just business news. And people really started to follow
4:26
Speaker 1: who the SEC was, what they did, what kind of,
4:29
Speaker 1: you know, how it got involved. And then of course
4:31
Speaker 1: his downfall became something that now movies have been made of.
4:35
Speaker 1: And people find that obviously very entertaining to see people
4:38
Speaker 1: fall off of a pedestal. But so I I know
4:42
Speaker 1: from Maria that you joined CCC very early on. Is
4:46
Speaker 1: that just luck? I mean, how did that actually happen?
4:49
Speaker 2: It was through an on-campus interview, and I was very
4:53
Speaker 2: fortunate to have had the opportunity. But I don't know
4:59
Speaker 2: how many other people can relate to the concept. It
5:03
Speaker 2: took me a while to figure out what I wanted
5:05
Speaker 2: to do. I couldn't say in college I always wanted
5:07
Speaker 2: to be a lawyer. That wasn't the case. In college,
5:10
Speaker 2: When I got to law school, because I did not
5:12
Speaker 2: have a preconceived notion of what it was, I found
5:15
Speaker 2: it really interesting. I started to really enjoy knowledge or
5:20
Speaker 2: information for the knowledge I was obtaining, as opposed to
5:22
Speaker 2: up through college, jumping through hoops and wrote memorization. And
5:26
Speaker 2: I didn't really feel like I was going to be
5:28
Speaker 2: able to apply what I learned pre-law school. But with
5:30
Speaker 2: law school, it really made me realize the importance of
5:35
Speaker 2: law and the role it plays in our lives. And
5:37
Speaker 2: then with regard to the SEC and post the SEC,
5:40
Speaker 2: and as I've had different life experiences, it's also how
5:44
Speaker 2: we view money differently from person to person. And that
5:47
Speaker 2: became even more apparent post my divorce when I started
5:49
Speaker 2: the date. And that bubble of safety that I lived
5:53
Speaker 2: in was sort of challenged with fresh notion. Right.
5:57
Speaker 1: What were some of the first cases? I mean, you
5:59
Speaker 1: don't have to get too specific. What kind of things
6:02
Speaker 1: were you getting into at the beginning?
6:04
Speaker 2: There were... There was outright fraud where there was a
6:12
Speaker 2: group of people who worked for IBM and they had
6:15
Speaker 2: all aligned. They all immigrated to the United States from
6:19
Speaker 2: the same place. It's called an affinity fraud. And they
6:22
Speaker 2: hyped an investment opportunity. And eventually the hype, which was
6:28
Speaker 2: a policy scheme, didn't pan out. And dealing with investor
6:31
Speaker 2: complaints and ultimately worked with the FBI and the U.S.
6:33
Speaker 2: Attorney's Office. And the person went on the run and
6:36
Speaker 2: they tracked him down, I think, to Atlantic City. So
6:39
Speaker 2: that was one. And something more complex with regard to
6:44
Speaker 2: misrepresentations in the marketplace by some traditional asset managers that
6:49
Speaker 2: were more technical violations as opposed to, in my mind,
6:52
Speaker 2: outright stealing and hardcore lying. So it was a real
6:59
Speaker 2: mix of a lot of different things. Right.
7:01
Speaker 1: And I'm always curious, how are people, you know, how
7:05
Speaker 1: are you getting these red flags for certain people? I mean,
7:08
Speaker 1: we see movies like The Wolf of Wall Street where
7:12
Speaker 1: the SEC gets involved or the Madoff thing or, you know,
7:15
Speaker 1: obviously tons of other things that we followed. But how
7:19
Speaker 1: is it that they come on the desk of the
7:21
Speaker 1: SEC to get investigated? Is it a tip off? Is
7:25
Speaker 1: it something you guys have been following?
7:26
Speaker 2: It's a few things. It was I. investor complaints. Sometimes
7:31
Speaker 2: it was journalists as well who would break a great
7:33
Speaker 2: story early on. And so when I started, first, it
7:38
Speaker 2: was a great job to have right out of law
7:39
Speaker 2: school because it really, I was doing something for society,
7:44
Speaker 2: beneficial to the public. And the goal wasn't to go
7:48
Speaker 2: out and just prosecute people to put a notch on
7:51
Speaker 2: your belt. It was really to try and get to
7:53
Speaker 2: the truth and to resolve it in as best of
7:57
Speaker 2: a way, given the facts and circumstances. So it was
8:01
Speaker 2: a good entree into the right way to practice law,
8:06
Speaker 2: as opposed to just winning for the sake of winning.
8:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, right. What are some of the red flags that
8:12
Speaker 1: will get the SEC's attention?
8:15
Speaker 2: Garden variety, fraud, lying, misrepresentations. So it depends on what
8:20
Speaker 2: we're necessarily discussing. So my focus being asset management and
8:23
Speaker 2: money managers. It's people that lie about their performance, people
8:27
Speaker 2: that don't. fully disclosed conflicts of interest so that the
8:31
Speaker 2: investor has an opportunity to really understand the information in
8:34
Speaker 2: a balanced way. The purpose of the federal securities laws
8:38
Speaker 2: is to create a balanced playing field so that you
8:42
Speaker 2: and I have access to the same information, but he's
8:45
Speaker 2: sitting above us in a lofty high tower who's worth
8:48
Speaker 2: billions of dollars. It's to create fairness. Doesn't always work
8:54
Speaker 2: that way, but that's the purpose of the law. Right.
8:57
Speaker 1: I thought it's interesting that you bring up sometimes you
8:59
Speaker 1: can be tipped off by a great journalist because you
9:03
Speaker 1: see a lot of people think sometimes that the media
9:06
Speaker 1: right now is not fair and very biased. So it's
9:11
Speaker 1: interesting to me to hear you say that people would
9:14
Speaker 1: actually take a really good article and follow that lead.
9:19
Speaker 1: Because sometimes, you know, people are saying, oh, it's a
9:21
Speaker 1: matter of any press is good press. Who cares? And
9:25
Speaker 1: I'm blanking now on either what news story or or
9:28
Speaker 1: movie I saw where something was written in an article
9:32
Speaker 1: and the people was written about were like, oh, that's
9:36
Speaker 1: not a big deal. Like, we're just getting press. People
9:38
Speaker 1: are going to know about us. But at the end
9:39
Speaker 1: of the day, the SEC was like, oh, wait, maybe
9:41
Speaker 1: this is a big deal.
9:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's. There's a lot of people that subscribe. There's
9:47
Speaker 2: no such thing as bad press. I wouldn't necessarily agree.
9:52
Speaker 2: Information has a way of following you at times. So
9:56
Speaker 2: it's important to be the best person you can be.
9:58
Speaker 2: And we all make mistakes. So there's also an act
10:02
Speaker 2: of contrition and forgiveness as well. It goes back to,
10:07
Speaker 2: like I said, one of the triggers of health isn't
10:10
Speaker 2: just physical health and mental health. It's also financial well-being
10:14
Speaker 2: in many parts of the world, including the United States.
10:18
Speaker 2: So It's really important that people put thought into how
10:21
Speaker 2: they invest their money and what their need for money
10:23
Speaker 2: is and the role it plays in their lives.
10:26
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10:43
Speaker 5: Dune ADL. There's an accent on the E.
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Speaker 3: Right, right.
12:39
Speaker 1: OK, so that's where we get into sort of what
12:41
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about, because I think that, listen,
12:45
Speaker 1: you don't have a lot of people watching Bloomberg News. Sometimes,
12:47
Speaker 1: you know, CNBC will be something a little more mainstream.
12:50
Speaker 1: But for someone to be into financial news, you have
12:53
Speaker 1: to have a, you know, a want and a need
12:56
Speaker 1: to be watching that. So I want to kind of
12:57
Speaker 1: break down for our listeners things that, you know, they
13:00
Speaker 1: that might be interesting to them that they can really
13:03
Speaker 1: follow along with. So I want to have you describe,
13:06
Speaker 1: if you would. this whole phenomenon with crypto. What is crypto?
13:12
Speaker 1: Can you break it down? Because to me, it sounds
13:15
Speaker 1: like playing with monopoly money and I just don't get it.
13:18
Speaker 2: So there's the currency called cryptocurrency and the people confuse
13:21
Speaker 2: it with the concept of blockchain. And blockchain is an
13:25
Speaker 2: open ledger. It's a form of accounting. And I think
13:28
Speaker 2: the idea was really to form an asset that was not,
13:32
Speaker 2: the word people use is decentralized. But what it really
13:35
Speaker 2: means is you don't have to go to a bank.
13:37
Speaker 2: You don't have to go to traditional institutions and have
13:41
Speaker 2: dealings of your assets or money with them. It enables
13:44
Speaker 2: you and I to not even really use a currency
13:46
Speaker 2: that's backed by a government to barter. And cryptocurrency started
13:55
Speaker 2: with Bitcoin. And eventually, as the asset class of cryptocurrencies grew,
14:00
Speaker 2: more and more cryptocurrencies were offered. Now, like any other industry,
14:07
Speaker 2: that catches fire. If you look at assessing how businesses grow,
14:12
Speaker 2: there's often growth, hyper growth, and then consolidation. These are
14:17
Speaker 2: traditional trends in a lot of industries, whether it's technology,
14:22
Speaker 2: it's going to happen with cannabis if it hasn't happened
14:24
Speaker 2: at various times and other asset classes. And so what
14:27
Speaker 2: happened was the concern for me, at least as a
14:29
Speaker 2: former enforcement attorney was, I was, I'll give you an example.
14:34
Speaker 2: I was at, I was in Miami. I'm at a
14:36
Speaker 2: hotel I have about an hour to grab some sun.
14:38
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there in my lounge chair while I'm reading
14:40
Speaker 2: my phone and responding to emails. I hear two women
14:42
Speaker 2: talking about Dogecoin and how the woman made money and
14:46
Speaker 2: bought a car. So being a person who can't control himself,
14:50
Speaker 2: I interceded in the conversation. And I was like, what
14:53
Speaker 2: made you buy Dogecoin? And it seems to be, from
14:57
Speaker 2: my perspective, a large swath of the public just traded
15:02
Speaker 2: on information because they heard somebody else talking about it.
15:05
Speaker 2: It's referred to as a greater fool theory. And it
15:07
Speaker 2: started in the 1600s with the tulip bulb craze, where
15:10
Speaker 2: ultimately in Holland, people were buying and selling tulips that
15:15
Speaker 2: were the price of their homes, tulip bulbs. And eventually
15:18
Speaker 2: the market fell out. And if you refer to a movie,
15:21
Speaker 2: refer to Wolf of Wall Street. Well, if you watch,
15:25
Speaker 2: and we mentioned Anthony Scaramucci, he was in Wall Street 2.
15:29
Speaker 2: And Gordon Gekko, he mentions actually the tulip bulb craze
15:33
Speaker 2: as he's greeting his future son-in-law. This has gone on
15:39
Speaker 2: for centuries. So crypto serves a purpose. And I would
15:44
Speaker 2: say from my perspective, it became bastardized as it caught
15:47
Speaker 2: fire of people wanting to get rich quick. I remember
15:51
Speaker 2: going to one of the earlier conferences. It was Damon
15:53
Speaker 2: Dash in Miami. And I got there and I was
15:56
Speaker 2: like going to Comic-Con. I'm sitting there like sort of quiet.
16:00
Speaker 2: And you hear people trading name like handles as if
16:03
Speaker 2: they were like a comic book character. So it's hard
16:08
Speaker 2: to ever forget that as the early enthusiasm behind cryptocurrency,
16:12
Speaker 2: which drove it. It's going to have a place in
16:15
Speaker 2: the financial world, how big or small is yet to
16:18
Speaker 2: be determined. And the issue that's coming up with the
16:22
Speaker 2: law is whether cryptocurrency is a security or whether it's
16:26
Speaker 2: not a security. And if it's a security, then it's
16:30
Speaker 2: governed by all these laws that came out in 1933
16:32
Speaker 2: and 1934 that sort of governed the stocks and bonds
16:36
Speaker 2: that we buy in the marketplace today or somebody buys
16:39
Speaker 2: on our behalf. And the balance out to that was
16:43
Speaker 2: by not having clear and concise laws, you had the
16:47
Speaker 2: wild west of people not knowing and they're claiming not
16:50
Speaker 2: to know how to deal with it. I have a
16:52
Speaker 2: different opinion on it and it may or may not
16:54
Speaker 2: be the popular opinion. But when you're going through a
16:57
Speaker 2: lot of, if you go from growth to hyper growth,
16:59
Speaker 2: it's hard to take control over how you're running your
17:02
Speaker 2: business because the money's flowing in everywhere. And so you're
17:06
Speaker 2: playing catch up with your controls over the growth of
17:09
Speaker 2: your business.
17:13
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Speaker 2: Enjoy.
18:45
Speaker 1: Got it.
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Speaker 2: Okay. And that's happened. Think about like the food industry
18:47
Speaker 2: and every industry, airline industry, many industries have gone through
18:52
Speaker 2: this pattern.
18:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
18:54
Speaker 2: Right.
18:54
Speaker 1: So just to, So crypto is like the name of
18:58
Speaker 1: the arc of everything. And Bitcoin, for example, is one
19:01
Speaker 1: of the currencies, correct?
19:03
Speaker 2: Correct.
19:04
Speaker 1: Among how many currencies?
19:05
Speaker 2: Ethereum, Dogecoin. There's hundreds.
19:10
Speaker 1: OK, so there's so there are hundreds. It's not. But
19:13
Speaker 1: Bitcoin is the most famous that most people are familiar with.
19:15
Speaker 1: Is that correct?
19:16
Speaker 2: It seems to be the one that everybody seems to
19:18
Speaker 2: know if it's not Ethereum. But I would think the
19:20
Speaker 2: public knows what Bitcoin is at this stage.
19:22
Speaker 1: Got it. And what is the difference between the currencies? Like,
19:26
Speaker 1: why would I buy Bitcoin as opposed to whatever? Doja Cat.
19:30
Speaker 2: My ability to really explain it in a way, because
19:33
Speaker 2: I haven't dealt... Crypto's something I deal with, but it's
19:36
Speaker 2: not necessarily my primary focus. But the white papers behind
19:40
Speaker 2: each crypto tends to be a white paper that's written
19:42
Speaker 2: that talks about its use for its business plan, whether
19:44
Speaker 2: it's a utility, token, a range of different things. And
19:48
Speaker 2: each of those white papers would... explain its purpose. Now,
19:51
Speaker 2: once the volume of a token increases, whether people can
19:56
Speaker 2: differentiate the purpose or differences, that's a great polling question
20:01
Speaker 2: I would ask the public.
20:03
Speaker 4: Okay.
20:03
Speaker 1: And just curious, why would somebody invest in Bitcoin versus,
20:09
Speaker 1: you know, like a well-regarded tech stock?
20:13
Speaker 2: To some degree, diversification on some level. And the price
20:17
Speaker 2: of Bitcoin as we started, you know, the various wars
20:21
Speaker 2: has actually gone up in value. So I think some
20:24
Speaker 2: people are looking at it and I don't know because
20:27
Speaker 2: it's not.
20:27
Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
20:30
Speaker 3: for it?
20:30
Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
20:33
Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than, like, anywhere else.
20:36
Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
20:38
Speaker 5: It's Dune-A-D-L.
20:40
Speaker 2: Where?
20:42
Speaker 5: Dune-A-D-L. There's an accent on the E.
20:46
Speaker 3: Do you mean.
20:46
Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
20:48
Speaker 4: Lift?
20:49
Speaker 2: Please.
20:49
Speaker 3: Are you going past Kimmage?
20:51
Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage!
20:52
Speaker 2: No.
20:53
Speaker 5: Dundale Cars.
20:54
Speaker 4: You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
20:57
Speaker 2: Me who's doing it. I'm not having these conversations. I
21:00
Speaker 2: think there are some people in the marketplace that are
21:01
Speaker 2: looking at it similar to gold that is not correlated
21:04
Speaker 2: to other asset classes. Now, I'm not sure how true
21:07
Speaker 2: or not true that is, because if you think back
21:10
Speaker 2: to 2008, there wasn't really a safe place to hide
21:13
Speaker 2: your money. Anything you invested in seemed to get hit.
21:18
Speaker 2: And I'm speaking generally. I'm sure there's exceptions that I'm
21:21
Speaker 2: not either familiar with or don't know. To remind people
21:25
Speaker 2: that are listening, I'm a lawyer. And I'm not the
21:27
Speaker 2: person you call to how to invest your money. Right.
21:30
Speaker 1: No, of course. But I'm just getting the background from
21:33
Speaker 1: you because you know this more than I do. People
21:35
Speaker 1: have been talking about Bitcoin halving. What is that?
21:39
Speaker 2: Oh, it's forking of a Bitcoin. It's when people that
21:44
Speaker 2: own the currency disagree with certain protocol. And so it's
21:50
Speaker 2: one camp goes one way and one camp goes another way.
21:53
Speaker 2: And whoever owned the token will usually get a portion
21:56
Speaker 2: of each. Got it.
21:58
Speaker 1: Okay. So the investing in crypto, Bitcoin, whatever people choose
22:05
Speaker 1: has become popular because we've seen a lot of celebrities
22:09
Speaker 1: do ads for it, post about it on their Instagram.
22:12
Speaker 1: And I know at least as of last year, there
22:15
Speaker 1: was a bunch that were in trouble for promoting this
22:19
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Can you talk a little bit about that?
22:21
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm sorry, I'm looking down. I want to
22:23
Speaker 2: look at my notes so I don't get this wrong.
22:24
Speaker 1: That's okay.
22:25
Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian last year, paid a penalty. Well, she had
22:29
Speaker 2: to pay the SEC 1.26 million.
22:31
Speaker 1: She did. Wow. Okay.
22:33
Speaker 2: Even though she was paid only $ 250, 000. I think, I
22:35
Speaker 2: think that the currency was Euromax, Ethereum max for promoting
22:43
Speaker 2: it on her Instagram, Floyd Mayweather and DJ Khaled, Khaled
22:49
Speaker 2: Floyd paid 614,000. DJ Khaled paid 152,000 in 2020. Steven
22:50
Speaker 2: Seagal paid a, $ 314, 000 to the government.
22:57
Speaker 1: So these guys were just promoting something that they really
23:01
Speaker 1: didn't research.
23:03
Speaker 2: So the question is, what went wrong? Why did they
23:05
Speaker 2: have to pay something? So it goes back to this
23:09
Speaker 2: assumption or understanding, is cryptocurrency a security? And I don't
23:15
Speaker 2: want to go into the test and the prongs of
23:16
Speaker 2: the test because I don't think the listeners would be
23:19
Speaker 2: that interested at this time. But it refers back to
23:21
Speaker 2: an older case called SEC versus Howey, that there are
23:24
Speaker 2: four prongs in determining whether an asset is considered a
23:28
Speaker 2: security under the laws. And if it's deemed to be
23:31
Speaker 2: a security under the securities laws, the Securities Act of
23:34
Speaker 2: 1933 requires that a person promoting a security discloses the
23:41
Speaker 2: compensation that they received and when they received it. And
23:44
Speaker 2: that's the rub. All of these people were penalized or
23:49
Speaker 2: fined by the government for not having disclosed their compensation. Now,
23:54
Speaker 2: here's the interesting thing from what I read about Floyd Mayweather,
23:57
Speaker 2: and as I said, appreciate this is not the focus
24:01
Speaker 2: of what I do, but reading it out of curiosity,
24:04
Speaker 2: I don't think he even said anything. I think he
24:05
Speaker 2: wore swag in advertisements, and that was his violation.
24:13
Speaker 1: So if he... Go ahead.
24:16
Speaker 2: So if you delve into it, and I said whether
24:18
Speaker 2: things are a security or not, that's not really clear.
24:21
Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian's lawyers... In my mind, and I haven't read
24:27
Speaker 2: the details of it, and I wouldn't, even if I
24:28
Speaker 2: read the details of it, I might not know the
24:30
Speaker 2: back and forth that occurred behind the scenes. For anybody
24:33
Speaker 2: who's dealt with a lawyer, you realize that the conversations
24:36
Speaker 2: you have with your client are not always going to
24:38
Speaker 2: come public. They may have conceded to other crypto security,
24:45
Speaker 2: and I'm sure they have considered it when you're in
24:51
Speaker 2: a legal battle, which... I've been in, I'm in a
24:53
Speaker 2: litigation right now and an investment I've made. And again, unfortunately,
24:58
Speaker 2: I'd love to talk about it publicly, but obviously I
25:00
Speaker 2: can't for a range of legal reasons, even though I'm
25:03
Speaker 2: arguing the victim ones. When you're involved in a litigation,
25:09
Speaker 2: there's the economic cost of paying your lawyers. There's the
25:13
Speaker 2: emotional stress that you're under and rolling the dice. So
25:18
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting that How she ended up settling with
25:22
Speaker 2: the SEC was wrong. But I'm just saying it's not
25:26
Speaker 2: necessarily binary or black and white that she was caught
25:30
Speaker 2: red-handed because they might have taken the position it's not
25:32
Speaker 2: a security.
25:33
Speaker 1: I see.
25:34
Speaker 3: Okay.
25:34
Speaker 1: So when it comes to the SEC rules, how is
25:37
Speaker 1: doing an ad for crypto specifically different than selling like
25:41
Speaker 1: a beauty product that she has or car?
25:46
Speaker 2: It's a function of if it's deemed to be that
25:48
Speaker 2: you're promoting the sale or an opportunity to invest in
25:51
Speaker 2: a security. So if you presume cryptocurrency is a security,
25:56
Speaker 2: like if you went out to tout Apple and Apple
26:00
Speaker 2: had paid you $ 10 million right before you went out,
26:04
Speaker 2: don't you think if I'm a listener, I'd want to
26:05
Speaker 2: know that you got paid $ 10 million to promote it,
26:08
Speaker 2: as opposed to you've done your research based on it
26:11
Speaker 2: and you're an objective intermediary and you're not biased, as
26:15
Speaker 2: we made reference to journalists earlier, that The public, in
26:20
Speaker 2: an effort to understand how to take your information in,
26:23
Speaker 2: really should know that. And that's what he really goes
26:26
Speaker 2: back to, full and fair disclosure.
26:29
Speaker 1: So was Floyd's problem that he was paid for wearing
26:33
Speaker 1: whatever he was wearing? I mean, what if he just decided, like,
26:35
Speaker 1: I love this product, I want to promote it? Would
26:38
Speaker 1: he still have gotten in trouble?
26:39
Speaker 2: I can't imagine if he had no compensation that he
26:41
Speaker 2: would have gotten any trouble.
26:43
Speaker 1: Okay, got it. So that's how we know he got
26:45
Speaker 1: paid for it.
26:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was more of like a footnote or something
26:50
Speaker 2: else I was reading.
26:51
Speaker 1: And do you think that these people just got caught
26:53
Speaker 1: up in this or do you think they they were
26:54
Speaker 1: just they got paid and their, you know, manager was like, hey,
26:58
Speaker 1: here's an opportunity for a big paycheck or a decent paycheck. Just,
27:02
Speaker 1: you know, send out a post on your Instagram. I mean,
27:04
Speaker 1: what do you think the problem is? I mean, obviously,
27:06
Speaker 1: there's a problem with people like us. that us meaning
27:10
Speaker 1: me and listeners listening to.
27:13
Speaker 2: I'm not part of that us.
27:15
Speaker 1: Well, no, I think you're, you're a little more educated
27:17
Speaker 1: maybe on that situation, but taking advice from celebrities on
27:21
Speaker 1: what they think is the best product. And it is
27:24
Speaker 1: something as serious as this down to beauty products.
27:26
Speaker 2: Right.
27:27
Speaker 1: So, you know, I, I want to know like why, how,
27:33
Speaker 1: why do they not have to do the research to
27:34
Speaker 1: be able to do that? I think that's, you know,
27:36
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem responsible.
27:38
Speaker 2: Well, not doing your research certainly is not responsible. And
27:42
Speaker 2: even if there is not a law that requires you
27:45
Speaker 2: to do it, you would think that there's a symbiotic
27:48
Speaker 2: relationship between this library and their fans that you try
27:52
Speaker 2: and do right by their fans.
27:54
Speaker 1: That's true.
27:55
Speaker 2: I get that impression when I've heard other artists speak,
27:57
Speaker 2: like Lady Gaga. They seem to appreciate the relationship they share.
28:05
Speaker 2: What goes through their heads... Honestly, I've asked myself that
28:08
Speaker 2: question dozens of times. I presume, but I don't know,
28:12
Speaker 2: is that they're trusting their inner circle and that their
28:17
Speaker 2: inner circle may or may not have prioritized or may
28:19
Speaker 2: have jumped on the bandwagon and not realizing the risk
28:23
Speaker 2: that they were taking onto their clients. Right. So the
28:27
Speaker 2: ones that really touched my head on the playing side
28:31
Speaker 2: was TX, like Larry David. I mean, watch the commercial. First, um,
28:36
Speaker 2: I'll just say I'm a big Larry David fan, hard
28:38
Speaker 2: not to be, being from New York. And he's just
28:43
Speaker 2: doing his normal shtick. And in no way, by any means,
28:49
Speaker 2: could I imagine anybody could say they relied upon his
28:52
Speaker 2: humor in the Super Bowl that led them to want
28:54
Speaker 2: to do business with FTX. Right.
28:57
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:58
Speaker 2: So that to me, so when I was younger, I lifeguarded.
29:01
Speaker 2: And when I lifeguarded, one of the first things I
29:03
Speaker 2: teach you when you're approaching somebody who's drowning is, They
29:06
Speaker 2: tell you to approach them from behind as opposed to
29:08
Speaker 2: from the front. So you approach them from behind and
29:10
Speaker 2: bring them back to the shore. The reason you don't
29:13
Speaker 2: approach them from the front is we have a survival
29:15
Speaker 2: mechanism in our bodies and we pretty much will do
29:18
Speaker 2: almost anything to survive and that they're more apt to
29:20
Speaker 2: push down the person coming to rescue them under the
29:22
Speaker 2: water to help survive. So I would say this thing
29:26
Speaker 2: happens in people's mind. We all react differently. And so
29:30
Speaker 2: you would think when you're dealing with any financial dealings,
29:35
Speaker 2: knowing that there's a risk, there's a risk, reward and
29:40
Speaker 2: a risk. And sometimes people need to slow down and
29:45
Speaker 2: really think things through. And I think it might've been
29:48
Speaker 2: the failure of that. It was a euphoric growth of crypto.
29:53
Speaker 2: And it seemed all these people were getting rich and NFTs,
29:56
Speaker 2: even when, and I, boy, girl, twins and a daughter,
30:00
Speaker 2: And they're all in their 20s at this stage. And
30:04
Speaker 2: I always hear you talking about your daughter, so I
30:06
Speaker 2: always enjoy that part, too. Oh, thank you. And it's
30:10
Speaker 2: hard not to always. So I'm involved in my kids'
30:13
Speaker 2: lives to the degree they allow me to be. Otherwise,
30:16
Speaker 2: I'm not really a helicopter father. And my son was
30:18
Speaker 2: talking about investing in NFTs. And I was like, are
30:20
Speaker 2: you out of your mind? Like, walk me through the
30:23
Speaker 2: inherent logic in this. I'm like, just do me a
30:25
Speaker 2: favor and don't.
30:26
Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
30:29
Speaker 3: for it?
30:29
Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
30:32
Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
30:35
Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
30:37
Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
30:39
Speaker 2: Where?
30:41
Speaker 5: Dunaidial. There's an accent on the E.
30:45
Speaker 3: Do you mean.
30:46
Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
30:47
Speaker 1: Lift?
30:48
Speaker 2: Please.
30:48
Speaker 3: Are you going past Kimmage?
30:50
Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
30:51
Speaker 2: No.
30:53
Speaker 5: Dundale Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
30:56
Speaker 2: Um... Thankfully, that was one of the rare times I
31:00
Speaker 2: gave him pretty good financial advice.
31:02
Speaker 1: So, yeah, you've mentioned NFTs now a couple of times.
31:05
Speaker 1: Can you break that down a little bit? Because I
31:06
Speaker 1: know a lot of us saw Paris Hilton on one
31:09
Speaker 1: of the late night talk shows talking about her monkey
31:12
Speaker 1: picture or whatever, and that kind of exploded. And now
31:15
Speaker 1: that has become, you know, that's tanked. So what is
31:19
Speaker 1: an NFT?
31:20
Speaker 2: It's referred to as a non-fungible token or whatever the
31:24
Speaker 2: image is, apparently. And like I said, I As a lawyer,
31:29
Speaker 2: I'm only dealing with it to the degree that it
31:31
Speaker 2: comes up in my practice and occasionally in personal life.
31:34
Speaker 2: So I'm not the end-all, be-all of explaining what an
31:37
Speaker 2: NFT is, but it's a non-fungible token. And you're taking
31:39
Speaker 2: an object or an image and it's unique. And apparently
31:43
Speaker 2: you own the rights to it to some degree provided
31:45
Speaker 2: it's not the rights that are not securitized, meaning it's
31:50
Speaker 2: not as if it's owned by a hundred people and
31:52
Speaker 2: you own one one-hundredth of it. There's a lot of
31:55
Speaker 2: ways to sell any type of asset. but I'm friendly
31:59
Speaker 2: with some other artists. Um, one in Florida who, um,
32:03
Speaker 2: I've actually collected his art and he was telling me
32:06
Speaker 2: somebody approached him about selling NFTs of his art. And
32:08
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, sure. Write me a check for 5
32:09
Speaker 2: million bucks and I'll sell you the part. I can
32:13
Speaker 2: tokenize it. And it's crypto and NFTs tokenization of assets.
32:23
Speaker 2: And I'll walk you through it. Tokenization of an asset.
32:26
Speaker 2: Let's say a troll, um, You and I want to
32:31
Speaker 2: offer interest in an asset. Let's say we own a building.
32:34
Speaker 2: And the building's $ 10 million. And we want to sell it.
32:38
Speaker 2: And we don't think trying to find 10 people with
32:41
Speaker 2: $ 1 million to chip in is going to be feasible.
32:44
Speaker 2: So we're going to sell it in $ 100, 000 or $ 10
32:45
Speaker 2: units and divide $ 10 million by $ 10. And we're going
32:50
Speaker 2: to try to sell that many things in it. So
32:52
Speaker 2: that's called tokenization of an asset or securitizing an asset.
32:58
Speaker 2: There's a range of other issues that still exist in
33:00
Speaker 2: being able to use crypto or tokenization. I think that
33:05
Speaker 2: might be the future of how that asset might be used.
33:10
Speaker 2: And I know you spent five years at Bloomberg. I
33:11
Speaker 2: did my research on you, too. And with regard to
33:16
Speaker 2: tokenization of an asset, due to anti-money laundering and common
33:21
Speaker 2: reporting standards, which are tax and terrorist-related reporting data, That's
33:26
Speaker 2: one of the challenges right now that if you go
33:28
Speaker 2: into the market to buy a token and you now
33:31
Speaker 2: want to sell it to some other person, no one
33:35
Speaker 2: knows who you're selling it to, the identity of that
33:37
Speaker 2: person theoretically. You don't know whether they're a criminal, what
33:40
Speaker 2: their net worth is, their sophistication. There's a lot of
33:44
Speaker 2: unknowns still. But once that gets cracked, and I expect
33:48
Speaker 2: it will, I think we'll start to see the new
33:51
Speaker 2: stage of tokenization of assets. And crypto will have an
33:55
Speaker 2: even more valuable distribution role in the market. But with
33:59
Speaker 2: every good thing comes at times other risks. Because then
34:03
Speaker 2: you're going to have other people buying an asset that
34:05
Speaker 2: they don't understand and losing their money. Right. Right.
34:09
Speaker 1: OK, another topic that people have that's been involved in
34:14
Speaker 1: entertainment news that is more financial news is what's happened
34:18
Speaker 1: with Sam Bankman Freed. Can you break down a little
34:22
Speaker 1: bit what is going on there? Because there are so
34:24
Speaker 1: many celebrities that have come out saying that they were
34:26
Speaker 1: affected by this. So obviously now people are listening.
34:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. The question is whether it seems to be that
34:33
Speaker 2: he took investors money and use it in a way
34:36
Speaker 2: that he didn't describe to finance. His private fund, which
34:43
Speaker 2: sustained a lot of losses, and it became a Ponzi scheme.
34:48
Speaker 1: So this is similar to Madoff?
34:50
Speaker 2: On some level, I would argue, yeah. He attracted money
34:55
Speaker 2: based on a lie, used the money for some other purpose,
35:00
Speaker 2: and eventually as money stops coming in, you can't pay
35:02
Speaker 2: the people out or support it.
35:04
Speaker 4: Right.
35:06
Speaker 1: So was there like something that happened that all of
35:09
Speaker 1: a sudden people were like, I want my money back
35:11
Speaker 1: and he didn't have any money to give back? Like
35:14
Speaker 1: how did it all of a sudden get figured out?
35:16
Speaker 2: So what triggered it was like everything else in life.
35:21
Speaker 2: Some things that go up so quickly or skyrocket, sometimes fall,
35:26
Speaker 2: they have a fall. So it was referred to as
35:28
Speaker 2: crypto winter and the price or valuation of cryptocurrencies in
35:32
Speaker 2: the marketplace started to decline. Other counterpart people, other companies
35:38
Speaker 2: that FTX was doing business with or that was in
35:41
Speaker 2: the crypto marketplace, I'm going to use the word counterparties
35:44
Speaker 2: to describe them, started to fail. And as other companies
35:47
Speaker 2: started to fail and as cryptocurrency started to decline in value,
35:52
Speaker 2: FTX was incurring losses and they needed more money to
35:55
Speaker 2: bolster their losses. And what goes up really quickly can
36:02
Speaker 2: come down really quickly. And that's what happened.
36:04
Speaker 1: Right, right. Okay, so I know that you are not
36:07
Speaker 1: a financial advisor, but as someone who's been doing this
36:10
Speaker 1: for a while, if John and Jane Doe, let's say,
36:13
Speaker 1: were interested in investing, what would be the top three
36:17
Speaker 1: things you would have them look into? Not like securities,
36:21
Speaker 1: things like that, but what are good things for them
36:23
Speaker 1: to do to do their research?
36:26
Speaker 2: Great question, but it begs another question. One of the
36:30
Speaker 2: things I've learned from the industry is it's hard to
36:32
Speaker 2: advise anybody on what to do when you don't have
36:34
Speaker 2: their entire picture, their financial health there. So first and foremost,
36:38
Speaker 2: there's something called the cash flow analysis. But basically what
36:41
Speaker 2: you're doing is you're going through all of your expenses
36:43
Speaker 2: and liabilities and you're going through all your cash flow,
36:46
Speaker 2: your income, and you're trying to assess how much you
36:50
Speaker 2: need to survive and what you can afford to lose.
36:52
Speaker 2: So that's step one. Just figure out what you need
36:55
Speaker 2: to live and for how long you need it and
36:58
Speaker 2: what And how much are you going to afford to lose?
37:00
Speaker 2: So that will govern the risk profile of what you're
37:03
Speaker 2: investing in. Also, we look at their age. If you're
37:08
Speaker 2: in your 20s, most likely you're going to be able
37:09
Speaker 2: to take on more risk because you have a longer
37:12
Speaker 2: life expectancy than if you're 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, or 70s.
37:16
Speaker 2: And so you hear that people's advisors will look to
37:20
Speaker 2: the duration of your life to assess your need for
37:23
Speaker 2: cash flow and your expenses. So in that regard, and
37:26
Speaker 2: then it depends on the time in history. So I've
37:30
Speaker 2: been a little freaked out about the marketplace as I'm
37:33
Speaker 2: reading different things. I'm asked to comment to the press
37:36
Speaker 2: and trying to lower my risk tolerance as well. And
37:40
Speaker 2: what's got me freaked out? I think would probably be
37:43
Speaker 2: more of the better question than telling John and Jane,
37:46
Speaker 2: if John and Jane don't follow what I've said, which
37:50
Speaker 2: there's no shame in not understanding it.
37:53
Speaker 1: Right. Then what should they stay away from?
37:55
Speaker 2: They should then hire somebody. that can advise them, that
37:58
Speaker 2: has more experience than they do, that can look at
38:01
Speaker 2: their specific fact pattern and guide them, and somebody they trust.
38:06
Speaker 2: If the person speaking to them sounds more educated than them,
38:09
Speaker 2: but they don't understand it, maybe not the right person.
38:13
Speaker 2: So there's a thesis that don't invest in something you
38:17
Speaker 2: don't understand. And so if you don't understand it, at
38:20
Speaker 2: least hire somebody who understands it. We've all done it.
38:24
Speaker 2: I've done it too in my lifetime where I've made
38:26
Speaker 2: that mistake, where it's something I didn't fully understand or
38:29
Speaker 2: wasn't communicated to me. So those are how I would
38:35
Speaker 2: look at it. For me, I've been reducing my equity
38:38
Speaker 2: position and increasing my debt position because of expected volatility
38:44
Speaker 2: in equity markets. And what keeps me up at night
38:49
Speaker 2: is interest rates continue to have gone up. Mm-hmm. you
38:52
Speaker 2: have other operating businesses that cannot afford to borrow at
38:55
Speaker 2: the current interest rate climate. Private equity has been investing
38:59
Speaker 2: in these portfolio companies. The portfolio companies have not had
39:04
Speaker 2: the ability to go public because of a range of
39:07
Speaker 2: different reasons and the market's not open to it. And
39:10
Speaker 2: so equity now has assets that they cannot sell. Um,
39:15
Speaker 2: read stories about people laying off, um, it doesn't seem
39:20
Speaker 2: to have hit the unemployment numbers. And while everybody's still employed,
39:24
Speaker 2: now the question is whether they're underemployed, meaning are you
39:26
Speaker 2: getting paid less today for the same job you might've
39:29
Speaker 2: been able to get five years ago? And then the
39:32
Speaker 2: other final issue that keeps me up a little is
39:34
Speaker 2: commercial real estate. So I'm in Manhattan and we're in
39:38
Speaker 2: the office several days a week, but it doesn't seem
39:41
Speaker 2: to be back to what it was pre-COVID, despite what
39:44
Speaker 2: I'm hearing and being told. And other people have different
39:47
Speaker 2: experiences than me, so I don't want to paint a
39:49
Speaker 2: grim picture per se, but it's the grade B building
39:53
Speaker 2: versus the grade A buildings. As they're obligated to do,
39:58
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that think they're going to
40:00
Speaker 2: go to the banks that borrowed money from, say, here
40:02
Speaker 2: are the keys. Good luck with the building. And then
40:06
Speaker 2: the banks are going to be stuck with buildings that
40:07
Speaker 2: are not worth what they are. And that the ability
40:10
Speaker 2: to convert them to private residences isn't as easy and
40:14
Speaker 2: is much more costly than most people would believe. So
40:17
Speaker 2: when you're asking me, It's, money is an obligation. And
40:23
Speaker 2: knowing how your money is invested and understanding.
40:26
Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
40:29
Speaker 3: for it?
40:30
Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
40:32
Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
40:35
Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
40:37
Speaker 5: It's Dune ADL.
40:39
Speaker 2: Where?
40:41
Speaker 3: Dune ADL.
40:42
Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
40:45
Speaker 3: Do you mean?
40:46
Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dune Deal cars.
40:47
Speaker 2: Lyft?
40:48
Speaker 3: Please. You're going past Kimmage?
40:50
Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage!
40:51
Speaker 1: No.
40:53
Speaker 4: Done deal cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
40:56
Speaker 2: The risk. If you're going to put your head in
40:57
Speaker 2: the sand, then it's your fault, no matter what happens.
41:01
Speaker 2: And take ownership of this gift or obligation, however you
41:06
Speaker 2: want to look at it, and spend time asking questions.
41:10
Speaker 2: It's the same way going to a doctor. It's, what
41:14
Speaker 2: about people with cancer? Yeah, I hadn't gone to a
41:16
Speaker 2: doctor for 10 years. Same thing, you sit there and say,
41:18
Speaker 2: what are you thinking? So I would say the same
41:20
Speaker 2: thing with a financial advisor. It's my kids and my
41:24
Speaker 2: conversation with my kids. And as they're like, I'm afraid
41:26
Speaker 2: to look at that and see how much money I lost.
41:29
Speaker 2: That's exactly the problem. I cringe when I see how
41:32
Speaker 2: much money I lost. But if I don't look, that's
41:37
Speaker 2: even worse than not looking. So I appreciate your question,
41:42
Speaker 2: but I think it's more of really opening up people's
41:45
Speaker 2: minds And it goes back to the concept of rather
41:48
Speaker 2: than maybe the food, I'd rather teach you how to
41:50
Speaker 2: farm and go through the process. Right.
41:52
Speaker 1: Oh, I appreciate that.
41:54
Speaker 2: Okay.
41:54
Speaker 1: I have a couple of questions from people that wrote in.
41:59
Speaker 3: Okay.
42:00
Speaker 1: Will a Bitcoin ETF be approved by year end?
42:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm expecting we're to see more ETFs being approved
42:07
Speaker 2: by the SEC and things have been challenged and the
42:09
Speaker 2: SEC I think has taken a very bad position on this. Okay.
42:14
Speaker 1: Short-term securities be legal.
42:17
Speaker 2: Okay, so for those people to educate the crowd, short
42:20
Speaker 2: selling is when you think the company's value is overstated
42:25
Speaker 2: and you think that the stock is selling at a
42:29
Speaker 2: price more than it's worth. So you basically go to
42:32
Speaker 2: your brokerage firm and you borrow the security and you
42:35
Speaker 2: sell it in the public. So that means you're short
42:38
Speaker 2: the security because you're betting that you're going to, if
42:42
Speaker 2: the stock plummets, that you're going to buy the stock
42:45
Speaker 2: after it's much cheaper and and then return it to
42:48
Speaker 2: the person directly you borrowed it from. So that's shorting. Now,
42:51
Speaker 2: I actually think shorting is a good thing. I think
42:54
Speaker 2: it motivates people, whether it's journalists, but it's usually asset managers.
42:59
Speaker 2: It motivates asset managers to really do the research, and
43:02
Speaker 2: when they uncover something, it might seem manipulative, but they've
43:06
Speaker 2: fully disclosed the fact that they're short the position, all
43:10
Speaker 2: of the bad things that they've uncovered. So I think
43:14
Speaker 2: if we didn't do it, it would be a one-stop market.
43:17
Speaker 2: And people would get away with more than they probably
43:19
Speaker 2: get away with now. The government, just talk about the police.
43:23
Speaker 2: Do the police know every crime that goes on? No.
43:25
Speaker 2: They get tips from informants. You hear a gunshot, a
43:28
Speaker 2: neighbor calls it in. You see a suitcase that's laying
43:31
Speaker 2: there and unattended to for a few hours, you call
43:34
Speaker 2: it in. So it's the same thing. Borders are one
43:37
Speaker 2: more variable of people that are looking at the market
43:39
Speaker 2: with a joint this high. Now, there are some people
43:42
Speaker 2: that might short a position and try to manipulate a security.
43:45
Speaker 2: I'm not defending them. But for the people that are
43:47
Speaker 2: doing it legitimately and correctly, they provide a value to
43:50
Speaker 2: the business and they provide a value to the public.
43:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
43:55
Speaker 2: But granted as un-American, which I think is inaccurate.
44:01
Speaker 1: OK, should politicians be allowed to trade on insider information?
44:06
Speaker 2: Not a chance. And I know Congress has some issues
44:09
Speaker 2: with this. They should be subject to the they are
44:14
Speaker 2: subject to some degree to the rules and regulations we are.
44:17
Speaker 2: but they're provided certain privileges as a politician.
44:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
44:21
Speaker 2: You know, it's, it's despicable, horrible, but they're human. So
44:25
Speaker 2: people make bad decisions as humans. We, I attended a
44:30
Speaker 2: client event and they had a, they had a professional speaking.
44:35
Speaker 2: And I found this really interesting because I would say
44:37
Speaker 2: it applies in ways that we would have never thought.
44:40
Speaker 2: So as human beings, when we were, you know, go back,
44:43
Speaker 2: I don't know, 2000 years, let's say, and we were,
44:46
Speaker 2: cavemen and cavewomen are walking through the jungle and you
44:49
Speaker 2: hear rustling in the bushes. There's a gland in our
44:53
Speaker 2: brain that secretes a chemical that reduces our intellectual thought
44:59
Speaker 2: to the most simplistic decision of fight or flight. Now,
45:03
Speaker 2: we're not living, for the most part, we're not living
45:06
Speaker 2: in those types of environments anymore. But we still have
45:10
Speaker 2: that gland and we still secrete that chemical. And so
45:14
Speaker 2: I think that flight or fight come in when it
45:17
Speaker 2: deals with money or other conflicts in our lives and
45:20
Speaker 2: our brain capacity just goes down. So I'm saying people
45:24
Speaker 2: do make bad decisions. And so I think creating checks
45:28
Speaker 2: and balances to even prevent them from doing it might
45:31
Speaker 2: be good.
45:32
Speaker 3: Right.
45:33
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, it seems sort of crazy that
45:36
Speaker 1: they can do that. So Talk to me. You mentioned
45:40
Speaker 1: before that there are things that keep you up at night.
45:42
Speaker 1: I mean, you're a lawyer. We've talked to you a
45:45
Speaker 1: lot about market and what your thoughts are in the market.
45:47
Speaker 1: As a lawyer, you know, what are things that keep
45:52
Speaker 1: you up at night? Like, what are things going on
45:54
Speaker 1: in your world that, you know, are worrisome right now? Like,
45:57
Speaker 1: does the state of what's going on in politics worry you?
46:00
Speaker 1: Is that something you don't even deal with or think about?
46:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, so... given what I do for a living, a
46:06
Speaker 2: few of my clients have been more involved in politics
46:09
Speaker 2: and they've directly invited me to things where I'm sitting
46:11
Speaker 2: in a room, I look to my left, I look
46:13
Speaker 2: to my right, I'm like, how do I fit into
46:15
Speaker 2: this room? Usually I feel like I have the poor
46:17
Speaker 2: person disease because I, for anybody who's a fan, like
46:21
Speaker 2: not that I was a fan of Rhoda, but I
46:22
Speaker 2: always felt like Carlton the doorman and I was just there.
46:26
Speaker 2: And I don't know when you were with the Tao group,
46:29
Speaker 2: whether you had the similar experience when you're meeting certain people,
46:33
Speaker 2: it was, relatability and, um, politics just doesn't make sense
46:41
Speaker 2: to me anymore. And I really have trouble believing either
46:44
Speaker 2: the democratic or Republican party. And I feel that most
46:48
Speaker 2: of the people I interact with, it's we're fiscally conservative,
46:52
Speaker 2: but we're far more liberal in other ways. And I
46:55
Speaker 2: definitely do not feel represented. And there may be things,
46:59
Speaker 2: a few things I like about each politician. There's a
47:01
Speaker 2: lot more I don't like about each politician. And historically,
47:04
Speaker 2: my voting pattern has really been vote for the person
47:08
Speaker 2: that I dislike the least, which is really not where
47:13
Speaker 2: I want to be in life. But things that keep
47:16
Speaker 2: me up at night as an American do. And I
47:19
Speaker 2: identify first as a New Yorker and as an American.
47:21
Speaker 2: And being an immigrant, a first-generation American here, and my
47:27
Speaker 2: father having lived through in the Holocaust, I feel sort
47:31
Speaker 2: of guilty. that I was asleep at the switch, and
47:33
Speaker 2: I didn't really think anti-Semitism... And my ex-wife was Christian,
47:36
Speaker 2: even though her father's Jewish. So it's not... I'm not
47:41
Speaker 2: a religious person. I'm more spiritual. I don't want to
47:44
Speaker 2: even use the word anti-Semitism. I don't really think that
47:47
Speaker 2: adequately describes it. It's not that they're not hiring somebody
47:49
Speaker 2: because they're not Jewish, or they're boycotting a business because
47:51
Speaker 2: they're not Jewish. This is an annihilation that has been
47:55
Speaker 2: going on. And when I see what's going on in
47:57
Speaker 2: the universities and other parts of the world, I... I've
48:02
Speaker 2: been living the last 20 years telling my kids, no,
48:04
Speaker 2: the world's a better place. And they grew up with
48:06
Speaker 2: like school shootings and living in that fear. It's causing
48:11
Speaker 2: me to question that conclusion because I would have thought
48:17
Speaker 2: with the internet and with the sharing of information, we'd
48:20
Speaker 2: all get to understand one another better. We'd have greater
48:22
Speaker 2: empathy for one another. We would realize what real, unless
48:26
Speaker 2: you're going to completely exterminate a group of people, you're
48:32
Speaker 2: not going to arrive at a peace. Right. And so
48:37
Speaker 2: it doesn't necessarily keep me up at night as much
48:40
Speaker 2: as it probably should, but it's gotten me really far
48:43
Speaker 2: more sad at a time in my life where I
48:46
Speaker 2: would not have expected it.
48:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
48:49
Speaker 2: On the positive side, well, I wouldn't say we all
48:53
Speaker 2: have side hustles, but I have a side hustle and
48:56
Speaker 2: I have a side hustle. It's called Water Garden Farms
48:59
Speaker 2: and it actually involves another celebrity from the past, a
49:02
Speaker 2: guy named Dennis Levine, who was with Drexel Burnham, who
49:06
Speaker 2: I presume you may be familiar with the name given
49:09
Speaker 2: your history at Bloomberg.
49:10
Speaker 3: Yeah.
49:11
Speaker 2: And he was Michael Milken's partner and billion-dollar dealer at Rexel.
49:15
Speaker 2: It's a fully automated hydroponic grow for lettuce. Funny, everybody
49:21
Speaker 2: expects me to say cannabis, by the way, and it's not.
49:25
Speaker 3: Yeah.
49:26
Speaker 2: But the idea is when we're dealing with climate change
49:29
Speaker 2: and overpopulation and supply chain issues and a range of
49:32
Speaker 2: other concerns, And I know you have a food sponsor,
49:38
Speaker 2: because like I said, I've been a fan of your
49:39
Speaker 2: podcast as well. It sort of aligns in the same
49:43
Speaker 2: mindset of that. It's something really positive. And so I'm
49:48
Speaker 2: trying to, for some of the things I'm doing, I'm
49:50
Speaker 2: really trying to return back to the community. That's my
49:54
Speaker 2: time and my money.
49:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. Are you familiar with Kimball Musk's Big Green? I
50:00
Speaker 1: was just going to ask Ben at the a fundraiser
50:03
Speaker 1: for that, but it's something I'll talk to you later about,
50:05
Speaker 1: but very interesting getting back to the earth and all
50:08
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So I think you might be
50:11
Speaker 1: interested in what he's doing.
50:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. So just, so despite part of me, but the
50:16
Speaker 2: crap going on in the world that I just find
50:19
Speaker 2: sad and shocking because it, it seemed that we were
50:23
Speaker 2: on the trend in a better direction that we weren't
50:25
Speaker 2: putting up with the BS that's being communicated to us
50:29
Speaker 2: and people had access to other forms of information. And
50:33
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting I don't have biased information, and I'm
50:36
Speaker 2: trying to get objective information about what goes on in
50:38
Speaker 2: the world. That part just is sort of really, it's
50:42
Speaker 2: something that we all need to sort of speak up on.
50:46
Speaker 2: And so I wouldn't, I know you brought it up
50:49
Speaker 2: in a podcast recently, and I'm not trying to make
50:51
Speaker 2: this political because that really isn't who I am, but
50:53
Speaker 2: it's just being, as an American, we all really need
50:56
Speaker 2: to look out for one another. Mm-hmm. And what else
51:00
Speaker 2: keeps me up at night? My kids happiness, probably no
51:02
Speaker 2: different than you. My kids are my best friends. They're awesome.
51:06
Speaker 2: And I learned, I don't know if you've gotten to
51:07
Speaker 2: the stage yet. I learned so much from my children
51:11
Speaker 2: all the time.
51:13
Speaker 1: I do, too. Yes, I could. It's my daughter can't
51:16
Speaker 1: believe I can even use my phone without her, which
51:19
Speaker 1: kind of is true half the time. It's amazing what
51:23
Speaker 1: kids know. And, you know, we think we're so smart
51:26
Speaker 1: and they talk to us like we're total idiots. And
51:28
Speaker 1: we're like, excuse me, we've been here forever. But they
51:30
Speaker 1: are really smart. And my daughter's only 11, so a
51:33
Speaker 1: lot younger than your kids. But I am.
51:35
Speaker 2: Wait till she gets in her 20s. I fear my
51:37
Speaker 2: children's judgment more than anybody else's judgment in the world.
51:40
Speaker 2: It's not even, I never would have thought I would
51:42
Speaker 2: have gotten to that stage, but yeah, that, that keeps
51:47
Speaker 2: me up at night. And then otherwise it's what's going
51:49
Speaker 2: to go on with the markets. Yeah. Because right now
51:53
Speaker 2: it seems to be, we're in a sentiment of negative,
51:56
Speaker 2: negative sentiment and humans are herd mentality behavior.
52:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
52:02
Speaker 2: If you look at things and you've mentioned it also
52:04
Speaker 2: on a prior podcast, like people love to hate. Yeah.
52:09
Speaker 1: And actually, that's where I kind of want to end
52:11
Speaker 1: up with my last question to you is, you talked
52:14
Speaker 1: a lot about this and what you were saying just before,
52:16
Speaker 1: but like, where should people trust information right now? I mean,
52:20
Speaker 1: it's so hard to look, you know, you can't decide
52:23
Speaker 1: between MSNBC, CNBC, CNN, Fox News, because all the news
52:28
Speaker 1: is different, right? And then we have what's going on,
52:31
Speaker 1: you know, overseas, we have what's going on here with
52:35
Speaker 1: our politics and all the different, things about people being
52:41
Speaker 1: on trial and nobody knows what to believe. And everyone's
52:44
Speaker 1: taking everybody's credibility away. I mean, there's just so many
52:47
Speaker 1: things going on. No one knows where to get their information,
52:50
Speaker 1: their news. And then going back to what we were
52:51
Speaker 1: talking about, I don't think anyone should be getting their
52:54
Speaker 1: investment news from celebrities who probably are not, um, you know,
52:59
Speaker 1: getting too much research done and they don't have a
53:01
Speaker 1: history of being in any sort of business savvy, you know,
53:05
Speaker 1: way that they can express what you should be investing in.
53:08
Speaker 1: So what can you suggest that people should be doing
53:12
Speaker 1: to get credible information, news? Where can they trust their
53:17
Speaker 1: source right now?
53:19
Speaker 2: How I look at it, it's multiple sources. I don't
53:21
Speaker 2: think it's ever going to be one source. We all
53:23
Speaker 2: have a bias. No matter what the position you take,
53:27
Speaker 2: you're going to find people biased towards it and people
53:28
Speaker 2: biased against it.
53:29
Speaker 4: Yeah.
53:30
Speaker 2: And, and when you speak to people, right, somebody says,
53:34
Speaker 2: we'll make it simple. Somebody says, Oh, I love that restaurant.
53:37
Speaker 2: It's the best restaurant. That person, like there's a guy,
53:41
Speaker 2: you know, every place he goes and eat, everything is
53:43
Speaker 2: the best. So anything he says, I discount to a
53:46
Speaker 2: zero per se. But so even when you're communicating with
53:49
Speaker 2: your friends, it's asked questions. And one of the things
53:50
Speaker 2: I taught you in law school is just to look
53:52
Speaker 2: in like given your background and a range of different subjects.
53:57
Speaker 2: It's go to multiple sources and don't go to sources
54:00
Speaker 2: that are all from the same genre, so to speak,
54:03
Speaker 2: whether it's mainstream media, maybe pick one or two things
54:06
Speaker 2: in mainstream, pick one or two things in alternative, pick
54:08
Speaker 2: one or two things when you're on private threads with
54:11
Speaker 2: people in social media, and then ask questions and assume,
54:15
Speaker 2: like even if I'm articulating things, I only absorb 30,
54:19
Speaker 2: 40% of the information being told to me like as
54:22
Speaker 2: any other human. So I'm going to have shortcomings in
54:24
Speaker 2: how I share data. And then trust your gut.
54:28
Speaker 1: I think the downfall is that so many people speak
54:30
Speaker 1: with authority on things that they shouldn't be speaking with
54:33
Speaker 1: authority about. And people, you know, they have a platform.
54:37
Speaker 1: And so people are listening. I mean, you know, I
54:41
Speaker 1: had on my podcast a couple months ago, a gentleman
54:44
Speaker 1: who had sued the MyPillow guy because he won the
54:48
Speaker 1: $ 5 million in the challenge against him about fake news.
54:54
Speaker 1: And People will go back and listen to that. But
54:56
Speaker 1: I found it very interesting that, you know, somebody was
54:58
Speaker 1: such a big platform like the MyPillow guy, Mr. Lindell,
55:03
Speaker 1: you know, he is talking about things that he really
55:06
Speaker 1: doesn't have authority to talk on. And then some random
55:09
Speaker 1: data guy was able to prove him wrong. And it
55:12
Speaker 1: actually makes a worse off case for someone like Donald
55:15
Speaker 1: Trump or people that believe that the election was stolen.
55:18
Speaker 1: because it's when you have somebody like that's getting that
55:21
Speaker 1: information with you can do and um put it back
55:25
Speaker 1: up it takes away a claim that could be real
55:28
Speaker 1: at in some way right.
55:30
Speaker 2: So much fake news like i'll go on the internet
55:32
Speaker 2: and see things that people post and i've been choosing
55:35
Speaker 2: battles yeah it comes down to and there's my brother-in-law
55:39
Speaker 2: i think i haven't gone to his office but he
55:41
Speaker 2: says he has a plaque on his desk says often
55:43
Speaker 2: wrong but seldom in doubt.
55:46
Speaker 1: That's great Um, So and then I'm not being paid
55:50
Speaker 1: to say this, but I will say that recently I
55:52
Speaker 1: started I joined an app. It's called Ground News. I
55:56
Speaker 1: don't know if you've heard of this. I only found
55:58
Speaker 1: it this week. But it's so fantastic because it takes
56:02
Speaker 1: one topic and then it'll give you all the news
56:04
Speaker 1: stories from the left, from the right. And then it'll
56:07
Speaker 1: rate the accuracy of the story. So you get both
56:10
Speaker 1: sides telling the same story. And it could be about anything.
56:13
Speaker 1: It's not just politics related. So I happen to love that.
56:17
Speaker 1: And that's where I've been. researching my news as of late.
56:20
Speaker 1: I think it's a really great app that people should
56:22
Speaker 1: be looking at, but not being paid to say that,
56:25
Speaker 1: I think it's great.
56:26
Speaker 2: I'm promoting a security, so don't worry about it.
56:29
Speaker 4: Right.
56:29
Speaker 2: Okay, good.
56:30
Speaker 1: But from somebody who is obsessed with news and obsessed
56:32
Speaker 1: with facts, as we talked about earlier, I am from
56:37
Speaker 1: the history of working at Bloomberg for many years. And
56:40
Speaker 1: we learned you know, to have two sources and it's
56:43
Speaker 1: all about facts and you really shouldn't have your opinion
56:45
Speaker 1: involved in reporting the news. And we've really gotten away
56:48
Speaker 1: from that in so many ways. And for someone like
56:51
Speaker 1: me who really loves to consume news, it is hard
56:55
Speaker 1: to find the one place.
56:56
Speaker 2: Journalism has definitely, definitely changed. And the media, I used
57:02
Speaker 2: to do a lot more on TV. And the articles
57:05
Speaker 2: I'm reading now, there was an article I just read
57:06
Speaker 2: about how the there's fewer public companies in the marketplace
57:12
Speaker 2: and it was written by the Atlantic. And while I
57:16
Speaker 2: applaud them for some of their approach, it was really
57:20
Speaker 2: just so unsighted. It was, it was anti-private equity and
57:24
Speaker 2: basically suggesting the private equities taking all these public companies
57:27
Speaker 2: private and how it hurts the public investor because they
57:31
Speaker 2: can now manipulate the information and how it's not regulated.
57:38
Speaker 2: And I'm really curious, like it's, It's somewhat surprising that
57:41
Speaker 2: they wouldn't have presented, in my mind, a more balanced
57:44
Speaker 2: article so that the reader, like I'm reading now, I've
57:48
Speaker 2: discounted their thesis because it's so unsighted.
57:53
Speaker 3: Yeah.
57:54
Speaker 2: But it's like a lot of things is like hire
57:56
Speaker 2: somebody who knows whatever it is you need to do
57:58
Speaker 2: if you're not an expert in it and it is important.
58:01
Speaker 2: Go and hire a person that it's an expert in.
58:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, right.
58:07
Speaker 1: All right. So where can people find you if they're
58:09
Speaker 1: interested in hearing more of you? I know you do,
58:12
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, you are on TV sometimes talking, but
58:15
Speaker 1: what's your Instagram and where can people find you?
58:18
Speaker 2: You can go to sadist.com. It's our website. My Instagram,
58:22
Speaker 2: which I've kept private. That's probably the only thing I
58:24
Speaker 2: keep private. I've had, I had a bad social experience
58:26
Speaker 2: on that one. So I'm not, I'm not going to
58:29
Speaker 2: roll the dice again. Okay. And then on LinkedIn, I'm
58:33
Speaker 2: on LinkedIn for anybody who has a professional interest in
58:35
Speaker 2: reaching out under Ron Geffner. But I'm pretty easily found.
58:40
Speaker 1: Okay.
58:40
Speaker 2: Awesome.
58:40
Speaker 1: And obviously in doing my research on you, there is
58:43
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff where people can do their research,
58:45
Speaker 1: hear more about your thoughts on things if they just
58:48
Speaker 1: Google your name. So Ron, thank you so much for
58:50
Speaker 1: your time. I really appreciate it. And you've made a
58:52
Speaker 1: topic that is like very difficult to understand and, you know,
58:58
Speaker 1: goes over a lot of people's heads and boring, usually,
59:01
Speaker 1: you know, much more interesting and something that I hope
59:03
Speaker 1: people will listen to.
59:05
Speaker 2: First, thanks for having me. I really was excited to
59:07
Speaker 2: come on the show. And I really do enjoy your show.
59:10
Speaker 2: And I mean that sincerely.
59:12
Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate you so much.
59:14
Speaker 2: Well, same. Thanks so much.
59:25
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
59:28
Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
59:31
Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
59:33
Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash misunderstood.
59:39
Speaker 5: With Rachel Yucatel.
59:40
Speaker 1: Do you have ideas for the show or want to
59:41
Speaker 1: reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast at gmail.com. That's spelled
59:48
Speaker 1: M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much, and I'll see you
59:51
Speaker 1: next time.
59:56
Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
59:59
Speaker 3: for it?
59:59
Speaker 4: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
1:00:02
Speaker 4: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
1:00:05
Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
1:00:07
Speaker 5: It's Dunaidial.
1:00:09
Speaker 3: Where?
1:00:11
Speaker 1: Dunaidial.
1:00:12
Speaker 5: There's an accent on the E.
1:00:15
Speaker 3: Do you mean.
1:00:16
Speaker 5: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
1:00:17
Speaker 2: Lift?
1:00:18
Speaker 3: Please. Are you going past Kimmage?
1:00:20
Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
1:00:21
Speaker 2: No.
1:00:23
Speaker 5: Dundale Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.