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Can Skincare Improve Your Mental Health? · The Science of Skin

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Skincare Confidential, the podcast supporting the Science of Skincare Summit, an educational event occurring in Austin November 8th through the 10th in uh in 2024.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, my name is Dr.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I am a board-certified dermatologist.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: I am the co-host of this podcast.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also the co-founder of the Summit, but enough about me because I am so excited to uh to present my guest, Dr.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Evan Reeder.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Evan is amazing.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: He is a board-certified dermatologist and a board-certified psychiatrist.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: He is in private practice in New York City.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: He is sought after by the media.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: He publishes, and he's a deep thinker.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm super excited to have Evan on our show.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Evan, thank you so much to for being here.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me and thanks for the uh warm introduction.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I hope I will live up to the billing.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Of course you will.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, Evan, um, listen, you you do a lot in skincare.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you you do a ton in in in kind of that intersection of psychiatry and dermatology, and thank you so much.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are very few of you that have the double board certification, and and you really lean in and try and educate your peers on that, which we all are super thankful for.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: But but you also kind of take that and apply it to skincare.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Just kind of talk to me about how you kind of think about how skincare can be beneficial in terms of that intersection of psychiatry and dermatology as well.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a it's a long topic.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'll try to keep it as brief and as broadly applicable as possible.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was a medical student, I thought I was gonna go into psychiatry, and then I did another rotation in outpatient dermatology.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I it's all outpatient dermatology, pretty much, but um, and I was like, I really, I really liked it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: I liked the quick diagnosis.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I liked the fact that people were doing surgical, medical, and cosmetic, and you can see adults, you can see kids, you can do all, you can do it, do it all as a dermatologist.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what I noticed when I was going through the dermatology practices, there was so much overlap between the way people were looking, and whether that was something aesthetic or that was an inflammatory condition of the skin, or they had skin cancer, and um, the level of anxiety or mood disorders that was going on in our patient population.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that got me thinking about there's gotta be some way to sort of wed these two fields together.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the the way that my career has gone has really been, I've become much more of a clinical dermatologist, although I still see patients with psychiatric disorders and um at the same time having uh skin disorders.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I've really been leaning into the skincare thing and for like the aesthetics and the confluence of aesthetics and psychology because it's so broadly applicable to the general population.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And skincare in general is not an area that I ever thought I would get into, but there's so much interest um from skincare companies and from really young people.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was first millennials who I guess are not so young anymore, but you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha are much more wellness oriented, they're much more mental health focused, and they're much more um holistic when they think about their own healthcare.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that goes for skincare for sure.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of what has come in terms of my work as a consultant and as an educator for our peers and for people in industry has to do with meeting uh figuring figuring out how to meet the consumer and getting people the most um you know value from their skincare, even beyond like having nice looking skin.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that I think that that's where the the confluence of psychology and skincare is.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: When I use the skincare that I use at night, I it's a form of self-care for me, for sure.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of me stepping back and saying, you know what, I'm taking care of myself.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I feel good about this, and and it is a ritual that if I don't do it, I I actually feel bad about myself that I didn't do it.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I can identify with what you're talking about in terms of you know skincare, just the act of applying skincare is sometimes to me, it might be just as important as the products you use.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't is is that something is that valid?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I think so.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's interesting, like I have a lot of ideas about studies to ways and ways to validate this.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: No one's really done it, um, but I know how I would do it, and I may actually end up doing it.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if someone's interested in working with me on it, I'd be interested in doing that too.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: But what I would say is that um uh what you said is like spot on.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you look at the skincare in general, most of the studies are pretty weak.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: There are some exceptions, and yeah, you know, skin physicals comes to mind.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the gold standard for doing skincare studies.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that mindfulness activity, that mindfulness experience that people get from skincare can be exceptionally valuable regardless of what they put on their skin, assuming that it's something that's not causing irritation or some sort of inflammatory reaction.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's sort of everyone's busy in their life to different degrees for different reasons.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that everyone's looking for that one minute, five minutes, whatever they can get in their lives to attend to themselves and like, you know, this quote unquote self-care moment.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's definitely what skincare is.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's and for some people that's one step.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, that's five, eight, ten steps, whatever they want to do.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it's, you know, it's tactile.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: You feel it on your fingers, you feel texture, you're putting your your fingers on your skin and you feel the texture of your skin.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the sensorial quality of the products, I think, is really important.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, fragrance is really important.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even the packaging is really important, the aesthetics of the packaging, the way the package feels, the weight of it, all this is like, I think very interesting and very alluring.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's all part of the psychology of skincare.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's all sort of wrapped up in one.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think it's it's a way to stress relieve, get in touch with the moment in ways that in a way that for a lot of people is much easier than doing something like yoga or Pilates or meditation, you know, where I think those things can have like a very um sort of high ramp to to get to the point where you're actually finding the benefits of it.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Skin to care for some people can feel like it's instantaneous.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's that's super rewarding.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that there's a psychology of selling products, but you we're not talking about that.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're not talking about like what packaging is more attractive to get people to grab that product from the shelf.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, just just just to clarify to people, what we're talking a bit about is the psychology of what the package looks like, how it smells, how it feels to make the user literally feel better, to change your mood, to change your perception.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot more work going on in that field, right, Evan?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are there are a couple companies that are doing some interesting work there.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: There are some several companies that are doing less interesting work, and I won't, you know, throw anyone under the bus.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the whole, and when I was talking about packaging, I was just feeling like though talking about like the sort of the consumer experience of living with the package, sometimes the way it looks, sometimes the way it feels, but especially the way the skincare feels as well.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And when we think about our work as dermatologists, like these were things that we don't really learn about or really talk about, but it's really important because as dermatologists, we give medications away to people, sometimes without really thinking about the vehicle that they're in.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the pharmaceutical companies that make our drugs that are so important are not as attuned to this.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And like people don't want to use those products.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: They don't make them feel good.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a greasy ointment or it's something that has some sort of like texture in it, or it it it doesn't feel right.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of the times skincare can can give people that that edit that added sensoriality, even if the clinical benefits maybe may not be as robust as getting a prescription medication.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we have never talked about this, Evan.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so if this is not something that that you're familiar with, please tell me and we'll move on to another subject.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been reading more and more about adaptogens in skincare, which, from my understanding, adaptogens are are usually naturally based produ uh ingredients that help you deal with a stress response.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, for example, they're they're usually applied in a nighttime uh um application and they reduce the stress response of the skin, which can reduce inflammation and and kind of allow better use of antioxidants in the morning.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like they just have multiple applications.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that any does that resonate with you at all, the adaptogen type ingredients?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I took an a while back, I saw people talking about that, and so I took a little dive into the literature, and there really wasn't that much there.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like it was a for me, it was a lot of smoke and mirrors.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that it's a sexy topic to the general public because it is sort of medication free and it sounds more natural, it sounds more holistic, but I haven't been blown away with by any things that I've seen.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are ingredients that we know, and they're not that hard to source that can actually block some of the stress response that has that happens in the skin.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that there's, you know, the cortisol is active in the skin, just like the central the such stress response has cortisol.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think ingredients like that are more intriguing to me, not because it feeds back centrally on the body, but we know that the skin, unlike any other organ in the body, is has like a little stress response, like a microcosmic stress response of what's happening internally.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when we get stressed out, our brain goes haywire, our nervous system goes haywire, our hormone system goes haywire, and they sort of all interact with each other, and then they can feed back on every internal organ, and like any any organ system can be pretty much get inflamed.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then the same thing kind of happens on the skin in like microcosmic uh form, and no other organ can do that.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for me, like targeting those with like molecules that we know can really block stress responses that have meaningful effects, whether that's on aging of the skin or even on um inflammatory conditions like acne, that that that that becomes more intriguing to me.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to something you you touched on, which is kind of the the pharmaceutical um topical products and how historically they have just really not paid any attention to the vehicle, not paid any attention to the delivery system or or the elegance or use of the product.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly recently they've been listening to you, and and you could see that kind of that Venn diagram of one circle of pharmaceutical products, the other circle of skincare.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're kind of overlapping now, right?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: As the pharmaceutical pharmaceutical formulators start getting the idea and they need to start borrowing ingredients and formulation ideas from the cosmetic space, which we've actually seen happen in some of the latest topical formulations.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I know there's a lot of pharma people that listen to this podcast, and so you know, work with Dr.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Reader.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's giving you this idea of uh, you know, he's really involved in this um kind of sensoriality, the idea that that you can take a topical product and enhance well-being.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: In my view, there's no reason for even a topical therapeutic product not to try and achieve that type of goal.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I would implore those who are listening in the pharma industry to start working towards that because um it seems like such low-hanging fruit for for our patients to actually feel better while they're getting better as well.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Can I can I mention a brand name of drugs?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, sure.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I just think that like I don't think there's that in that many topicals that have done such a remarkable job, but Altrino is like one that stands out as um they've really done a great job and repurposing an old medication, right, that was generic.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when I was detailed about like tretino and lotion, Altrino, I was like, Yeah, you guys are out of your mind, like no one's gonna buy this, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then I got more and more like you know, more and more senior in my practice, and I saw what my patients are doing.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they're not you like they'll do tretinoin cream, but it doesn't matter if it's covered by insurance or if it's um, you know, if it's$20 and they'll they'll spend the money to buy the altrino because they're actually gonna use it, right?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, I see what my patients do.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I I see what I call like the worried well.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of the worried well in New York City and people who have beautiful skin access to everything, and I see what they use.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And many of these products are not uh we were not educated about them at all as dermatologists in training and even as dermatologists in practice.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking about like the luxury skincare products that people will will spend a lot of money on.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's there's definitely room in the pharmaceutical industry to um sensorialize their products and and and ways to to make people use them better.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, when we think about the luxury um segment of skincare, which I know you and I have discussed this um when we're talking about the La Mer's and and the La Prairie's and and the Chantacais and those kinds of brands, I mean, they've really taken that sensoriality and run with it, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: That that's kind of that's that's kind of the the reason for use of those products, in my in my view.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean they're masters in marketing as well, yeah, right.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that goes from print marketing to social media marketing to influencer marketing.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like I said before, like people are attracted to the aesthetics of the the packaging and the bottle, and so all there's all that there.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, there's a qualitatively different experience when someone's taking a drugstore product and they're pumping it out of that product uh of the bottle and they're doing a luxury skincare and just feeling that instantaneously it transports you into a different dimension, and you feel like you have access to that upper echelon of it's like a it's like a reach.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's for a lot for a lot of people, it feels like a reach.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I always use the now the analogy of like young kids.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was a high school kid who was like trying to get back in my day, we were, I guess it was just middle school.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted like the reebok pump, like Michael Chinese.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where you pump the the tongue of the shoe and it yeah, it was like all marketing, but it was like super cool.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, I had like summer job and I was like saving my money to get them, and like that was a really that's like not where you should be spending your money if you have like not that much.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: But like kids do this now with Jordans all the time.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in an analogous way, this is people's little experience of luxury is going for that skincare because they can be affiliated with something luxurious, something that's like if you know, you know, and something that that definitely has that sensoriality, even if the the clinical claims are not there to back it up.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, apart from the kind of this neuro skincare idea, um I see you post a lot on skincare on social media.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: What what's your handle on Instagram, Evan?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um Dr.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Evan Reader, D-R-E-V-A-N-R-I-E D-E-R, yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Evan Reader.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody follow him.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's great.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: He puts out some really good information, which is what we need.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and you've been talking, I saw I saw a post recently about a sunscreen that um uh one of the L'Oreal brands that is available only over in Europe, or XUS, let me say.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and you were really kind of harping on look, these are great filters, you know, the FDA is not is not working fast enough.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: We need to get better filters here in the US.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, and I think your message was really well taken because um the filters that we have here are under suspicion by the FDA.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: They've required these companies to go back and and do much more testing on age-old filters in the meantime.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: We have all these kind of really bot broad spectrum, really stable filters that have been developed by primarily French and and Spanish skincare brands that we can't don't even have access to in the United States.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you could probably buy them on Amazon, although you never know what's inside the bottle when you buy something on Amazon in my view, so buyer beware.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but speak speak to that.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, this this one product, I think it was a Laura Spose product that you were looking at that you were talking about.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it wasn't anything that you were getting paid for.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: You were you were just saying, hey, I I've been waiting for this product and I'm really uh excited to review it.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um but apart from the actual product, just speak to the to kind of the sunscreen filters and the issues that we're having.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I think I don't think it's probably news to anyone who's listening to this podcast, but the our our FTA, and I'm not I'm not part of the advocacy board for the American Academy of Dermatology, so I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but it's sort of it's very it's sort of a paradoxical way, like the European committees, which seem to be more stringent about everything.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Everything, yeah, right, have these superior filters that have made it through their stringent criteria.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess it's just not a priority of our FDA to get these filters put through our market.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that um, you know, I'm sure that the topic of physical versus chemical sunscreens is one that you've gone over a lot in this podcast.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think both are great for different reasons, but you'll there's a cosmetic elegance that comes with the chemical sunscreens that even in the best, like nanoparticles, you just can't really necessarily get with those physical sunscreens.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think it's a shame because there's there's people who want like the best, they want the best in everything, or there's people who have photosensitive dermatoses, or people are living with melasma, or people who have skin cancer or immunosuppressed who really want to do their best to um minimize the amount of ultraviolet light that gets on their skin, and like these filters are not available to them.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of my patients have the luxury of being able to travel.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think, like you said, there's gray marketplaces online and in person where you can buy them, and I think that's sort of a buyer-beware area, but um, I think it's a point of general frustration from like the aesthetician, dermatologist, anyone working in the skincare community uh that has to do with these filters.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the FDA is being very cautious, but interestingly, like they they keep eliminating our some of the filters that we have available now.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And for some of the reasons make sense to me, and some of them seem to be politically driven.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think most dermatologists was will say to patients, what's the best sunscreen?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a sunscreen that you'll use, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's all we want is for you to apply some sunscreen to your face.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And whether it's a spray, a lotion, if it's a powder, if you're going to use it regularly, uh we're all for it.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So and and what you're touching on is that you know, the historically the the physical blockers have been uh cosmetically inelegant.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: They they leave a white paste, they leave a white sheen, they just the even the nanoparticle ones are are not perfect.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like the chemical sunscreens can really soak in and and just apply a very nice matte finish to the skin, and they can be really quite cosmetically elegant.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that the FDA is limiting us in terms of the the spectrum of of protection that we can get with our current filters is is so shameful because it's really affecting the incidence of skin cancer in this country, in my view, because we're just not able to use the products that we need to to to affect change in the population level.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that there's a excuse me, there's a strong argument to be made for that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I I wish I knew what was going on behind the scenes, but I feel like we were having the same conversation 10 years ago.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's frustrating.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I I don't I don't know what what's getting in the way.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So beyond the sunscreen, um, let's talk about kind of what are you what are you seeing in in skincare right now in terms of themes?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: What are you excited about?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or or are you excited about anything?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, you know, uh I haven't been that excited about anything that I've seen on the market recently.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: What I've been meaning to do is to in New York, we're lucky to have these gray market shops where they have like K-Beauty.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have patients who go to these places like you need to try XX products, and I have a whole list of like K-Beauty products I need to try, but it's just everything's been sort of taking a backseat to child care at this point because I've been 19-month-old.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but have I seen anything that's been revolutionary in a while?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Not really.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen anything that has been so compelling to you?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's a good question.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think um companies are really trying to come up with products for skin lightening that will obviate the need for hydroquinone, right?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: As we know, hydroquinone, the the kind of the old adage of hydroquinone is that it's a tarosinase inhibitor.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It actually stops the enzymatic reaction that leads to pigment production.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: But what we know now is that hydroquinone is really toxic to the cells that produce pigment, to melanocytes.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're literally killing melanocytes with this drug, which could lead to all sorts of issues, and there's some data to show that hydroquinone may be related to skin cancer down the road.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think these companies are trying to step in with novel ingredients and formulations.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, one is is Beiersdorf, which has come up with Thyamidol, um, which is a really interesting lightning product.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: The other is uh is L'Oreal La Roche-Possay has come up with with Melasil, which is also super interesting.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and you know, we've got Elastin with their uh you know, pot peptide and other ingredient combination.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I'm all for that.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you know the the companies that are really really working on ways for us to achieve lightening of the skin without the need for hydroquinone are are doing some really wonderful and important work.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I totally agree.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That I was familiar with Melissa, but I wasn't familiar with the other SKUs.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that you know, just clinically witnessing the damage that happens with hydroquinone or hydroquinone uh compound products because sometimes like people will get priced out of the triluma, which is like tretinoin, hydroquinone, um, steroid combination, it can be pretty expensive.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And people then going to a compound pharmacy, and then often you don't know what you're getting from batch to batch, right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've seen all sorts of irritation reactions, and so much so that like I won't use those compounding pharmacies anymore because I feel like the quality control is so variable.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's just like a major area of need.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in general, anytime someone enters the market with something that's said they're going to lighten pigment, or when people are asking me about pigment lightening with OTC, it's I always have to be very careful with my words because I I feel like the options that we have had on the market thus far have been woefully inadequate, despite what drug companies, you know, or pharmaceutical or skincare companies want people to think.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it's I think it's getting to the point now, Evan, that that when I see a patient with um melasma or with just you know photo damage that requires some lightning, I'm really trying to integrate these OTC products along with some of the more prestige products that we carry in our office to try and go at the melanin pathway from all different angles.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're including trinismic acid systemically, topically, and then try and include.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's kind of amazing now that we can attack the uh the the reaction that that produces melanin in so many different ways.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think we just, as dermatologists, we need to start really taking a look at these OTC products.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're not super expensive, they have clinicals to show efficacy, they can be easily incorporated in a skincare regimen.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if you really look at it, you can kind of look at the enzymatic reaction and and target a product for each step.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it kind of medically makes sense to me to start working at it that way.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think that um the way that you articulated that is really important.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I have seen in skincare, and I would love to hear your opinion on this.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a cosmetic chemist, but I've seen this trend towards it's not really coming from like skincare companies, this is coming from um startups or sometimes even individuals making their own skincare where they've said this is packed full of ingredients.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you can to target one step and one molecule with one skincare um skew, I think is the makes the most sense.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like I think you're gonna lose efficacy when you're trying to pack 20 ingredients into a single SKU.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people, I'm sure people listening to this are informed about that, but a lot of the general public doesn't know that and they think they can do it all in one.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um that that brings up a whole nother conversation about kind of the Swiss Army knife products, right?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: The products that have so many different ingredients and have so many claims that they can essentially it's it's a brand new face in one bottle.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we just, you know, five years ago, I would have said, let's do it.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds amazing.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: But now that I'm, you know, kind of understand a little bit more about formulation and cosmetic chemistry, and I've spoken to these people that that kind of really um integrate the ingredients into formulas, I understand that's really not real.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and to your point, they just can't achieve everything they're trying to achieve with with those kinds of you know ingredient combinations.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's so much to to really think about in terms of formulation and and what plays well with what and what what pH works and what pH doesn't work, and there's just so much to think about.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that that's another place where like it sounds good from a marketing perspective and for the average consumer who doesn't know what they're doing, or sometimes even but but someone who's a dermatologist who's not going to look at the literature.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can say that you have clinicals, and then but what are the what are the outcomes that you're looking at?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: How's the study done?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: How you know there's so many different variables that go into it that it takes a pretty sophisticated mind or at least someone who's being very careful about reviewing their product data to actually understand that this is a product worth using or not, or if this is a marketing spin.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, perfect.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a great place for us to end here.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it always goes by so quickly.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've really enjoyed this, Evan.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you again for your time.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're super busy with that baby.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, everybody, this is Dr.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you're listening to Skincare Confidential.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: We just finished up an interview with Dr.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Evan Reeder.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: His Instagram handle is Dr.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: D-R-E-V-A-N-R-I-E-D-E-R on uh and please follow him.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh otherwise, we appreciate you listening to the podcast.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Please subscribe and share.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, till next time, thank you so much.