Latest / Founder F**K ups / Took Down Wirecard, Still Too “Local” For Singapore VCs | Pav Gill, Confide

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Took Down Wirecard, Still Too “Local” For Singapore VCs | Pav Gill, Confide · Founder F**K ups

• Ben Bagg: Pav Gill was the general counsel who blew the whistle on Wirecard, one of the biggest corporate frauds Europe has ever seen. A multi-billion dollar collapse that started with what he found in Singapore. Today he runs Confide, an all-in-one agentic governance risk and compliance platform built to replace the patchwork of legacy tools companies rely on and to make sure what happens inside a business actually stands up legally. He's Singaporean. Born here, building here, and he's got a theory he calls the Charles and Keith effect. That in Singapore, local products start with a quiet discount Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: against Western ones. And local founders are expected to go abroad and prove themselves before anyone at home pays attention. Today we're getting into why that's backwards, what what it means for early stage founders here and what would need to change. Pav, welcome to Founder Fuck Ups. Pav Gill: Hi Ben. Thanks for having me. Ben Bagg: Thanks. That's a a hell of a story, right? being the whistleblower on a multi-billion dollar scandal, should we say. before we get into that, I know that you spent a lot of time as you were trying to build out confide and and obviously being on your your founder journey that you spoke to a lot of VCs and you didn't actually manage to raise. what what did you get wrong when you came here, do you think? What were some of the assumptions you fought by building in Singapore? raising in Singapore that you thought would be an advantage? time out guys. Lots of you are watching, lots of you are learning from the founder fuckups that we've all gone through, but please do me one little teeny favour and subscribe so that we can keep growing the channel and get more great founders on. Back to the episode. Pav Gill: Yeah, so as a Singaporean, you know, I got a lot of attention Because of what happened at Wirecard, as you can imagine, right? So Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: there was a lot of who's this guy, where is he from and and all that stuff. it's also not common for I would say a lawyer to become a whistleblower. That's one. And yeah. Ben Bagg: Very uncommon. Pav Gill: And probably even more uncommon for that journey to then result in becoming a tech startup founder, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: So I found myself in this position. We were very what was interesting at the early days when I said I had this idea straight away like Bloomberg and SIFT featured us right away and then when we launched out of the UK in March 2024, the launch itself was covered by the Financial Times, Wired US, Dow Jones, Business Insider, and even the local papers. So naturally I would have, you know, I assumed at that point that we will get a lot of our locals VCs here that will be like, my god, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: who's this guy? What's he doing? How come international press is so excited about it? as well as international To national VCs. but what I found was actually the opposite. There was absolutely no interest at all. Ben Bagg: Have like Wow. Pav Gill: so that was that was kind of like weird. And also, you know, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: obviously when you start a company you're looking to see if there's any government assistance, any kind of like grants or support. Because if you think about the sorry Ben Bagg: Yeah, especially in Singapore. Especially in Singapore. Pav Gill: Yeah, so if you think about like the UK, what the UK has done is very interesting, right? They've got this UK thing called EIS and SEIS where if UK based founders who are earning money there and they invest in a UK EIS or SEIS startup, they can actually have personal income tax reliefs. So all these like interesting incentive schemes were there, but I don't really didn't really see much here. I mean when I tried to go through the whole journey, you know, whether it was with like Enterprise Singapore or whoever. you just find yourself in this maze where just when you think it's gonna happen after several weeks, that is just something that Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: that disqualifies you somehow. and that was just strange. So again I mean it's not like we didn't raise capital. We just realized that at the start I think it's better to raise capital from people in our space who understand the products and that's how Ben Bagg: Mm. Yeah. Pav Gill: we raised money at the start. Ben Bagg: Do you think as well you had like this a bubble is the wrong word, but you you know, you've kinda been blown up by all this PR and like all these amazing publications. Do you think it also probably you were you had then super high expectations, you know, got all this amazing press, it's just gonna be super easy, but then you knock on the doors and they're like, Stop and that that probably was quite deflating. Pav Gill: Yeah, I mean I didn't really knock on the local doors because when we had the when we had that initial kind of like launch PR we were inundated with European VCs, US VCs and those from like London as well, right? But I Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: think at that time we were just too early. It's like a new founding journey. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: You don't know how to you you don't even have a product ready yet, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: or it's halfway to an VP. and you know you're just figuring things out, right? Like I'm a lawyer, I'm not like born as a founder or CEO. so Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: we we know how to charge customers like as lawyers, but I think selling a product, tech product's different Yeah, yeah. So I think attack product is different. But what made the product unique I would say is that it was actually built based off pain points for people in legal risk and compliance to not have to suffer anymore. So it really was putting that not only the the whistleblowing journey but the journey as a general counsel, as a lawyer, into a real product. 'Cause I was sick and tired of all the point solutions in the market, right? Like every time a regulation comes out, you're not gonna go around looking for another point solution to comply with it. It's just nonsense. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes sense. Now obviously the the pain point was big enough that you got those publications kind of speaking of it too. you you mentioned to me in obviously the background the Charles and Keith effects. obviously I'm familiar with the brand. I still remember watching some poor young girl who got really excited to buy a a Charles and Keith bag and was I got a luxury bag and a bunch of Singaporean shot all over her I Pav Gill: Ha ha Ben Bagg: was like, This this isn't luxury and I think she got a bunch of free stuff if I remember correctly. Am I right? That that happened? So wh Pav Gill: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Ben Bagg: where does the suspicion come from that Singaporean born products they can't match Western ones? Like where where where do where does that come from? Maybe in the psyche of the the Singaporean? Pav Gill: I don't know. I mean Ben Bagg: Where have you found it most? Pav Gill: it's it's it's a very Singaporean thing, I think. I don't know because we I mean and I'm a Singaporean, right? Like so this is just speaking from what I've seen and experience Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. Pav Gill: is that if there's a local aspect to something, there is this thing that it can be good enough, right? and that's why I call it a Charles and Keith effect, because overseas like you will see them in all the luxury stores. and I think Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: I someone told me like was it L VMH or one of those like luxury brands actually took a stake in them. but then locals here would be like, Why are you having a Charles and Keith bag? Why should I waste money? it's local, it can't be good enough as say, I don't know, a Japanese product, a Korean product or a or or a European product, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: right? So I think that also kinda has fed into the V C space here. So f having spoken to a lot of local founders, it's kinda like we are feeling that way as well. Like they you know, they always get the advice, don't position yourself as a Singapore company. Make sure you come across as international. Ben Bagg: Right. Pav Gill: so even from a client standpoint, like if you do a deck, don't just talk about like the local giants like Grab or Fair Price Group or whoever that you've signed up, because VCs will be like, Okay, but these are just still local companies, whereas your other companies from Ben Bagg: Yeah. And Pav Gill: where the giants from overseas. Ben Bagg: I guess then because the market is so small being a singular city, even though there's of course huge amounts of capital, huge amounts of opportunity, if you're super focused on that sort of that island, your TAM is is actually relatively small. but it's interesting that the Singaporeans would discount something made locally. Do you think that comes from something of the past? Like that 'cause this is culture, right? Do you think that's like culturally before Singapore was what it is today, it went through s you know, sixty years of struggle or fifth or however many years of struggle and then Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: things locally made were cheaper for a long time and now obviously the quality has shifted. is that why you think? Pav Gill: I think it's a lot of it is being overly there's a few things. One of them is being very conservative. So it's not Ben Bagg: Okay. Pav Gill: like the you know, that what do you think of it like a US VC, right? So when I have like conversations with US VCs, they're like, Okay, is the founding fit there? Okay, he's got a presence, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: product is great, it's being used by like, you know, football clubs in the Premier League to gambling companies that are top five energy grids and even local giants in Singapore and Malaysia Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: for example. So, you know, now it's just about execution risk. So the way they ask the questions would be, assuming we gave you this, how are we gonna then make our Ben Bagg: Okay. Pav Gill: money and how would that potentially go wrong? Whereas if you speak the the experience from speaking to a lot of the local VCs is the other way. Like within five minutes the conversation is about why should I not inv why should I not invest in you? So it's like kind of completely Looking for reasons not to invest. Right. It's kinda it's a Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: weird mindset. It reminds me of like in every Asian family, there will always be that uncle in the family gathering that's never satisfied with how much you have achieved, right? Like you could Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: you could have won the Olympics and he'll be like, in in what? Then you're like in shot butt. He's like, But it's not the hundred meter race, I don't care. Ben Bagg: It's like it's like a Yeah. It's like everybody in Singapore or n not everybody of course, but the the VCs in Singapore they're looking for if you're not a grab, we don't want to come near you. And even though like nobody you know, did you know Grab was gonna be a grab back when they were racing? Of course not, right? but like if you weren't if you're not a gr so okay, I I I think I know what you mean. I think I know what you mean. Pav Gill: it's also a very ARR driven conversation straight away off the bat, less than the product? Yeah, Ben Bagg: Okay, traction, traction, traction. Pav Gill: but very like ARR, right? So your product is like, okay, yeah, whatever your product is, I still want to know like are you one or two million ARR already? But then the question is if as a pre seed company or as a seed stage company you're already hitting those numbers without a V C round, then most likely it's better that you take I don't know a loan from a bank than give up equity, right? Ben Bagg: probably wouldn't even need to give up equity at all. if you've if you've quickly got to two million era, obviously you would be raising on a much stronger position. So do Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: I guess the pre seed and seed market for Singapore is quite difficult 'cause I mean there are a few guys like Iterative and I think Antler came, although I'm not the biggest fan of Antler, but they've got a various different programs. But there's only a few of them. whereas in other markets I guess what you felt in Europe Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: and the UK there was a lot more of that, like early seeding rather Pav Gill: Yes, yes. Ben Bagg: than just focusing on series A, B and C and so forth. Pav Gill: Yeah, there's more risk taking. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: willing to make early bets and fuel the journey until it succeeds kind of mindset. because if all the all the tools are in place, all the validation has now been done, then now it's just about throwing fuel at it and scaling it, right? And seeing how that works or doesn't work. and don't forget like founders could also be fired along that journey if they're not executing. Ben Bagg: yeah. Pav Gill: so, you know, it it is it is strange because I think if Singapore wants to position itself as a start up hub, attracting Talent, then that seems to come across more as we want foreign startups here and we want to incubate them. Ben Bagg: Perhaps maybe Yeah, I mean they are do there is a very a little bit of that, but perhaps more actually they're positioning themselves as a start up hub for the capital that goes into the startups. Pav Gill: Right. Ben Bagg: Because all the funds are typically domiciled here, but perhaps not enough of the early stage, the smaller 'cause those are typically in this market I've noticed in Southeast Asia The seed and pre-seed game is done by these small couple of funds, you know, maybe ten million, twenty million AUM fund sizes and the the Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: you know, that's where they're sp playing. Whereas most of the capital in this area is all in that series A B C, which again then gets positioned out to the founder that succeeded overseas, right? Pav Gill: Yes. Ben Bagg: And so it's like to raise here, you first gotta go overseas seas, succeed, come back, and then be like, Right, I've I've done it all. Give me all your Pav Gill: Ha ha. Ben Bagg: you know, and that's what you know, so I guess does that mean that founders have to put that into practice at the beginning? They have to just immediately be like, We're not a Singapore business. We're here Pav Gill: Mm. Ben Bagg: in Singapore, but actually we're Southeast Asia, we're APAC, we're we're Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: mass. Like that's that's what you've kind of experienced so far. Pav Gill: Yeah, but my bigger concern as a Singaporean is whether we are by doing that we continue to have this in issue where it's gonna be hard to have from the very early stage back the next unicorn, right? you wanna be able to back Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: your own people at the start, not when they're already semi successful or successful, because then now you're just gonna take the icing on the cake, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: it's kinda like when we were guys and we were young and you know, we were in university, we had a we didn't gym out enough or we had a few pimples here and then you know, all the girls were like, come back with you like you got your six pack and you Ben Bagg: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Pav Gill: you're like a rich guy and you're like, No, why should I do that now? Right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. No, I get it. I get it. Pav Gill: So I think from from Confite side we're very lucky because we were actually backed by angels in the space f globally that are like governance risk compliance leaders from Fortune Hundred companies, right? So we managed to raise like about three mil just that Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: way as pre-seed. but now the bigger question for us and why I think this is a founder related topic is now that it comes to time for us to raise seed, is this should it be done in Singapore? even in Southeast Asia or should it really still be a According to what I've experienced, go to the US, go to London or Europe, get some Tier one VCs backing you or and then come back here and see whether local funds will be interested in the later rounds. Ben Bagg: Yeah. I mean that's a that's a really interesting question. I guess I suppose it depends on the VC that you're working with as well, the amount of capital you need to raise. I mean you would always prefer to go with a tier one. Yeah. Every there are a reason why they're they're tier ones. So do you think though that a founder who was probably kind of stepping into your footsteps early on, maybe they got PR, maybe they didn't. they should first you know, I guess in this part region you're probably better off with the angel syndicates. Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: and going for the domain expert, local angels that are within your space, they have a better un th they they see it, they see the picture better and go that Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: route for the early stage. Did you syndica or did you get a couple of just really key angels? Pav Gill: No, I mean like More than half I mean I would say half our investors are like lawyers. the rest are like, you know, internal audit beacon award winners, they're chief compliance officers of like AWS and the likes, right? head of Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: engineering for Meta and all these people. So they kinda understand the space and the product more and that's why they're Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: willing to invest in it. And also they it's powerful because it's kinda weird. We are c also selling to those those same people in a way. but they understand it, they bring a lot of insights, we can develop that product. It it builds traction and validation from people within the space. but I Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: think I have like I would say an unfair advantage that I could get even those conversations going because of my background. But Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: what I'm scared of is like what if someone doesn't have a wire cut story behind them? How are they even gonna Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: get those doors open? And I've also experienced locally like pretty insulting conversations from a product angle, right? Or even from a like why you think are good enough, why am I wasting time? blah blah blah. So Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: it It's it's I I I just fear that if we Ben Bagg: We see the story. Pav Gill: if we don't empower our local people or we don't give them that confidence that yes this is great, let's mentor you, let's work with you to make this even greater, you will have that drain out of talent that goes away and Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: comes back feeling like, you know, why why was the home ground support not there from day one? Ben Bagg: Better. Yeah, it's really interesting. was thinking about this. Obviously, yep, you ha you came from a an industry where you were connected, you had a lot of interesting stories about you. So yes, opening doors were much easier. And look, you know have you're you're older than the typical early stage startup founder. Although that's changing, in in the the AI age 'cause a lot of like industry domain experts are coming out and and getting you know, they're building they're building their own platforms. But it is it's normally the twenty five to thirty five year old kind Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: of window where it's like that hustle culture and and all this who don't have that that brand and network. And so what we're saying is for that group of people, the n the future entrepreneurs of Singapore, we're not got enough proper s support for them. And do you think that should Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: come from like government should create the incentives like you said in London, where there's like, Pav Gill: Yes. Ben Bagg: hey, if you're investing in early stage companies, we're gonna give it we're gonna give you a tax redemption or or you think they should be doing more? Because from a from an outsider Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: I think Singapore does a huge amount, but I'm sat in Malaysia. You know, we've got a little MDEC and and you know, I'm not even gonna get into the some of the back room stuff that happens here and and I'm sure in in places like Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, you know it's not much better. Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: so I I look up from the outside, like you guys are doing fantastic. But of course you can always do better, right? Pav Gill: Yeah, I mean but then what exists theoretically versus when you try to navigate it, it's completely different, right? So of course, like, you know, if you were, I don't know, a a successful UK company that wanted to now like as a startup, you're thinking of setting up shop here, I'm pretty sure you'll get a lot of support and incentives. But Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: from the on the flip side, the local ones have to work twice as hard. I mean if you even if you think about one of the grants that they had for you know, once you incorporated your company as a startup within the first six months you could get, I think it was like fifty K But even then like the founder had to match it one dollar for one dollar, like one for one. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: So it's just like things like that, right? Like 'cause not everyone is is as a founder, like historically got that exit from the previous startup to be able Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: to be willing to fund it. so yeah. Ben Bagg: Most fail most of the first companies that people build fail, like ninety percent of all of them fail in the first Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: five years. those second and third time founders have a much higher probability of success. but they typically don't have any money. Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: It is a funny one, like we're gonna give you a grant of fifty grand, but actually you have to first spend fifty grand Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: So you've got to spend a hundred grand and we'll give you fifty grand back. And you're like, Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: but I don't have a hundred grand. So I don't even have fifty. Pav Gill: Yeah, that's the thing, right? That a lot of the grants also work along the lines of reimbursement type things. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: so again, you know, your capital outflow goes out first and then you try to claim it back through a subsidized version Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: or like a repayment back. But that inc I mean, it doesn't solve the critical problem, which is you need the opacts first. So Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: the claim backs cannot happen if you don't have that op act to execute on them or to pay for those things in the first place or to even do sim Ben Bagg: Yeah. And I think these are these are difficult government structures because it requires a little due diligence and the easiest pathway I can understand being like a a repayment with documentation, so I can understand that way. The better Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: path I would then suggest is like these fund they need to fund the guys like Iterative who are doing great things but they only they can't do enough. And there there Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: could be twenty iterative type guys in Singapore taking on sort of twenty, thirty, fifty startups each every year at the early Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: incubation stage. Each of them are getting written a two hundred K check if they pass through. and then of course the government can fund those those sort of early stage funds. I guess that's probably Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: where 'cause then you don't have to have all that government black, red clients take we're talking about obviously with your Pav Gill: Correct, correct. Yeah. Ben Bagg: you you know because you gotta take a risk on the founder, right? Pav Gill: Yeah, so a good example was when we first started out, like The Hague in Netherlands was very happy f for us to set up our European headquarters there. and they even wrote us a letter and all these things, right? So the governments were saying, look, we can get you your your visa, we've we'll back you. This was the h the innovation quarter in The Hague, and and all that stuff, right? We'll give you the office space on a whatever. but when I tried to apply for what we would call a market expansion Or something that grant that existed. What's in that Ben Bagg: Just Pav Gill: grant from a from a requirement perspective is like stupid things like two years audited financial statements. But then we just started out a government in a different country wants us to have our headquarters there. We obviously don't have audited financial statements for two years, but this is technically an expansion. How do we like how do we be flexible about this and see the bigger picture around it? So I think that's where the the kind of like black and white. White requirements may not work. Ben Bagg: I guess the programs the the programs are likely more suited for people who have been in market for a while, Pav Gill: Mm. Ben Bagg: but there's not really enough programs for that. 'Cause, you know, I can understand again why a government would have a two you know, you've got to have two years, you've got to be in business for two years. We don't wanna just give random people money at the beginning to do overseas Pav Gill: Yes. Ben Bagg: expansion. 'Cause I could today register a company in Singapore. apply for a grant to expand Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: to Malaysia and get it funded by the Singapore government, that doesn't make Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: it so I can kinda understand why they would have that. But there does need to be programs that suit their that early stage. Pav Gill: I think the bigger thing is assuming what say one out of those ten requirements is not met. And but the person you're dealing with is the one that's gatekeeping those things and then disqualifies you. Who do you speak to to try to bypass that or exercise some discretion or flexibility? Because every startup may have unique circumstances, right? Like in your example, if the Malaysian government or Kazana or someone is saying, Look, we want these people here and now Singapore is saying, Yeah, but we want these people to be there still as a Singaporean startup and let's support that Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: journey. Who is that powerful or per that person in power, right, that can make that call, take that i interest and all that stuff, in order to for the founders not to get disqualified at the application stage. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Well in Malaysia there's definitely someone you could find to do that. In Singapore I guess it's you can't have a know the right guy. Rightfully so perhaps. Pav Gill: Yeah, yeah. But again, like you know, it's all it's all good. Like these are if you talk about, you know, learning experiences, like there's just so many and I think that's the beauty of being a founder, right? You are just every day you're just iterating not only your product but also your your learning experiences. Ben Bagg: What you think should change first? Do you think it's the investors, the governments, the founders themselves, like corporations? 'Cause I I know that you've got some corporate investors too, like looking at the Singapore lens, if Singapore backed its founders, the early stage, hey we're gonna we're gonna take a risk and we're gonna be Singapore born, who do you think should move first? Pav Gill: I have no idea. I think they there just needs to be more education on the topic, more avenues that are less red take oriented. you know, so if you if you think about I don't know, say if i someone is in the media from Singapore is locals getting a lot of attention. That person wants to create a company. Maybe instead of that person now seeking to reach out, there should be a thought group somewhere that says like, look, this is exciting. Ben Bagg: Searching. Pav Gill: Let's find out more. Let's let's I mean basically take the initiative and groom, right? We need to y Ben Bagg: Like if you were to think of it like a football team or a sports team, they have scouts. And so the scouting and Pav Gill: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ben Bagg: they're paying attention to the local article about the the whiz kid with a football in the random Chichester football team. That's Pav Gill: Correct. Ben Bagg: the the scouting has to be happening to find the talent and then go, Hey, you have a special come into the the talent house Pav Gill: Yes. Ben Bagg: of Singapore. Pav Gill: So if you think about like Shanti Pereira, right, I think that's her name, just won she's constantly winning the hundred meter dash and gold medals and stuff on the global stage. Now if she suddenly says one day she wants to do this business idea that's related on her skill set, people out there should already be like, Okay, I wanna speak to her, I wanna fund this, I wanna be that early backer and really groom this person into the next big thing. versus like I'm gonna kick back and wake Ben Bagg: Yeah. But I suppose in and in the same case that it ended up working for you, she would have a network that she would have built up. Pav Gill: Correct. Ben Bagg: And there'll be industry experts, industry people that she would have interacted with that have some know-how, some capital. I guess the big conversation we're having here is do we think that that is the is this the Is this the government space where Singapore or a government should be tackling and going, okay, this is an eco there's an a gap in the ecosystem and we should be funding that in some capacity or investing resources into some capacity? Or is it on the other side, well actually this woman or in this case you PAV are a domain expert in your field? You've got publicity, and now you've decided that you're going to build something. And then through your network, you've gone out and built it and figured out how to build it. I guess what you're hoping for is there's actually a government route option too. Or are you hoping Pav Gill: Mm-hmm. Ben Bagg: that the government just finds you, plucks you out, and go, Do you want to build a business? No. Pav Gill: Correct. So I think that's the gap that we are seeing. It's the the outreach, the initiative, the willingness to take that bet and risk, but also play a part in grooming, right? So a lot of people like, you know, they think like, okay, VCs are just for like getting money or or stuff, but I don't think so. I think the VCs would have to bring that network effect, they bring that trust, that credibility, that backing, the you know, that insistence that let's try until it really fails, but let's Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: not give up so soon. So I think educationally is just maybe awareness wise, maybe it just doesn't no one knows. I don't know. Or it's just not clear enough what are the avenues to go to. and which is why you you also have a lot of companies that are, you know, trying to outbound to you, saying we can help you navigate all the various mazes and grants out there for a fee. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly and they they they make a lot of money doing this kind of middleman stuff. it's really interesting lens actually, Pap, because I think I meet a lot of these younger entrepreneurs who coming out of like school, you know, would s In their early twenties and they're like hunting this investor and that investor and they're selling to this customer and they're vibe coding that thing and and like you know, we're different kind of coming at it at that approach. And then I'm also meeting like people who have been in a career for twenty years, coming out of that career for whatever whatever reason has driven Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: them to to leave that career. In some cases it's redundancy, in some cases it's it's just they're they're just done and then deciding to build something and then they're looking at in a similar lens to you they're thinking well where's the government support here who do I speak to who are the you know and so it's interesting to see the the different angles. If you were talking to let's say somebody who's coming out of a career right the they're a domain expert in their field they're gonna build I think it's vertically right in into that field. What would you say to them? Do you think building in Singapore right now is the right thing? Do you think that they should actually just leave and go out and then come back maybe? Like what what would you what would be your advice to them? Pav Gill: So that's the thing, right? Because the advice that's so commonly heard is go to San go to San Francisco and race. Right, go to SF, go get Ben Bagg: Easy. Hello. Pav Gill: that you know, spend a month there or six weeks on the ground, just pitch non stop, get that few million and come back. but I think even that's kind of changing now. Like you need to think about a US Nexus and all these things. but I think honestly that would be maybe a more satisfying way, maybe you'll learn a lot of things. you get a lot of ideas. You'll also be in an ecosystem with fellow founders who are doing the same thing, those that already done it. So I think that kind of ecosystem and support and bouncing of ideas and you know, just that that that feel, right? The environmental element, I think that's what's missing Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: here. So yes you can incorporate in Singapore, it's got good tax benefits in that sense. You know, it's low tax as a jurisdiction. But then You know, would you be able to entice, say, Angels here versus say the UK with their EIS benefits? and the pound is very strong, right? or would should you just go straight pre revenue to SF and just try to pitch and get a few million out of the bank right away? It's it's difficult, right? Ben Bagg: I guess it there's no real right path for anyone. but I think what you're saying is you're gonna go through angels and things like that, perhaps go to markets like London that are very you know Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: basically go to a market that is good for the route that you're taking and the pathway that you're taking as opposed to just you're in Singapore so be in Singapore. So like have an open Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: mind to the global market as opposed to a singular mind that I'm here in Singapore, I build in Singapore, I'm gonna be Singaporean. which I think is fair advice 'cause what you've described I mean probably prodom prominent reason why London made sense for you, less about Sterling, but more about the that's that support for your angels who ended up being your first kind of round. Now sing Pav Gill: Yeah. Ben Bagg: San Francisco would make sense if you're in like front frontier technology because you need to be in that ecosystem raising from that kind of investor. You're never gonna be able to raise half a billion dollars, for example, out Pav Gill: Correct. Ben Bagg: of Singapore. very unlikely unless you're boarding Pav Gill: Correct, correct. Ben Bagg: an island. Right. Pav Gill: It it it's it's true, it's true. And also the accelerator that we have also came from the UK, right? We had found this factory Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: out of there. but what's more important also is valuation. So you could raise an SG but then would that valuation because of the Charles and Keefe effect be high as Ben Bagg: Yeah. Pav Gill: compared to the same valuation you'll get, say, from SF or or the U the UK side. Ben Bagg: Yeah, it's very common you get a discounted valuation in Singapore versus even even Australia, which is a tiny market a lot as well. really appreciate you coming on and and and sharing a little bit for me and and going into a little bit of detail of how you went around raising and and talking about you know these topics. I I I'm very dear to my heart thinking about early stage startups and and founders and how to win. So yeah, thanks for coming on the pop. Pav Gill: Sure. Thanks for having me. Ben Bagg: Cheers.